COMMENTS: 72
Carbon Capture: Miracle Cure for Global Warming, or Deadly Liability?
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But for a growing list of critics, injecting carbon dioxide into the earth is as risky as sticking a Botox needle into a brow -- who really knows what's going on under the skin? And because this climate cure comes with no prescription to radically change the world's energy diet, skeptics say carbon capture and storage (CCS) is a diversion and a false solution.
CCS is the process of collecting carbon dioxide emissions from sources such as fossil fuel-burning power plants before it reaches the atmosphere and storing it in deep geological formations or in the ocean. While the technology to capture the carbon is already commercially available, and CO2 injection pilot projects are under way, any large-scale plans to capture and store carbon have been mostly elusive.
What's clear, however, is that efforts to push for CCS as one of the most promising technological fixes are heavily under way, just as holes in the plan are slowly bubbling to the surface.
This month, several scientists testified before the Senate Subcommittee on Science, Technology and Innovation that major financial investments are urgently needed to make CCS available within the next decade. Howard Herzog, a principal researcher with Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Laboratory for Energy and the Environment, said a commitment of $1 billion a year is needed.
The meeting coincided with new legislation introduced by Sen. John Kerry, who chairs the subcommittee, to advance CCS. His bill would establish three to five coal-fired "demonstration" plants with CCS technology, and three to five facilities for sequestration, another term for CCS.
In October, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) announced it was writing CCS regulations, and last week, OPEC leaders unveiled CCS as the showpiece of their new "energy and environment" agenda.
Not to be left out, some environmental groups are taking their turn around the track with the CCS baton. In July, the National Resources Defense Committee (NRDC) joined Herzog and several other scientists in penning a letter supporting CCS. Other environmental groups supporting CCS are the World Resources Institute, Environmental Defense, and the Pew Center on Global Climate Change.
CCS as a bridge
While the warnings about the effects of climate change are stark, governments have continued to shovel fossil fuels as if they weren't going out of style. Coal plants in the United States spew out 1.5 billion tons of carbon dioxide every year, dozens of new coal plants are elbowing each other in the queue, and China and India are throwing around coal like a newly rich lottery winner tosses cash.
With all the coal and oil usage, breaking the addiction seems more like drug-induced crazy talk than a reality -- which is why groups like the NRDC say CCS would help ease the world into detox while turning to renewable energy.
The NRDC-signed letter says, "The world still relies heavily on fossil fuels though, and breaking this dependence, even with greatly accelerated energy efficiency and renewables deployment, will not happen overnight. Practical reason demonstrates that we urgently need a means to decarbonize fossil fuel use. CCS is a technology capable of doing so."
Professor Robert Jackson, chair of Global Environmental Change at Duke University, said CCS should be a short-term strategy. "Because of the abundance of coal resources in this country, and because of our current reliance on coal, I do think, with some reservations, that this is a technology that we should push hard for and figure out if it works," he said. "And if it works, use [CCS] as a bridge to better forms of energy generation in the future."
And David Morris, director of the Institute for Local Self-Reliance, says any attempt to reduce carbon dioxide emissions dramatically must target emissions from existing power plants.
"We have to figure out a way to sequester the carbon emissions coming from those plants, or we need to close them down," Morris said. "While people are looking to have a moratorium on new coal-fired power plants, and I agree with that, it's the existing ones that one has to deal with in terms of sequestration."
But to others, CCS is a bridge that should never be built because of where it could lead. Matt Leonard, a campaigner with the Rainforest Action Network, a group calling for a coal moratorium, said CCS is a public relations scheme to pave the way for new coal-fired power plants.
"The coal industry is grasping at straws trying to find some way to convince the public that they have a place in our future energy policy," Leonard said. "And carbon sequestration is their attempt to brand some kind of PR campaign to have clean coal be a possibility."
Jutta Kill, a climate change expert for the UK's Forests and the European Union Resource Network, said CCS diverts the public's attention away from cutting ties with the coal industry, and instead entrenches reliance on fossil fuels.
"Coal-fired power stations are being built with the promise that this technology will be there one day in the future," Kill said. "It's a very dangerous way of spending a lot of money on a very risky technology and financing new coal-fired power stations, when that supposed remedy is very far-off into the future, and we may well find that it isn't going to work. And then there are all those coal-fired power stations that shouldn't have been built in the first place."
Indeed, while some environmental groups say CCS is a teething ring, other talk surrounding the technology points to a coal industry that doesn't want the world to grow up. Last week, when the University of Utah announced a CCS pilot project using $67 million in public funds, engineering professor Brian McPherson told the Salt Lake Tribune, "Ultimately, the purpose of this project is to develop a blueprint, a template for commercial-scale sequestration associated with new power plants to be built in the region."
And the interest of OPEC and other industry groups in CCS does not bode well for tailoring fossil fuel usage. This month, Peter Montague, director of the Environmental Research Foundation, issued a scathing critique of CCS, writing, "To one degree or another, carbon sequestration will benefit all of the industries involved, allowing them to continue business as usual, removing the need for substantial innovation and reducing competition from renewable fuels."
With such high stakes, industry is playing, and paying, to win. Stanford's Global Climate and Energy Project is funded by ExxonMobil, General Electric, Schlumberger and Toyota. A portion of Herzog's research at MIT was funded by Shell. Even the NRDC is profiting from CCS and the future of new coal plants; the organization received a $437,000 grant from the Joyce Foundation to "oppose the construction of new conventional coal plants and promote alternative plants using coal gasification with carbon sequestration." The NRDC and Herzog would not grant an interview.
Morris says he understands both sides of the CCS coin. Heads, Morris says: "One can argue that any concept that would leave the sequestering or storage of carbon could be considered a way to avoid doing the right thing. All of that is a diversion."
Tails, he concludes, "On the other hand, I say, why not? After all, the environmental community and the [Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change] has told us that no matter what we do now, we're going to face serious climate change with potentially catastrophic impacts in the next 30 to 40 years. So it seems to me that to say that we don't want to see if we can extract the carbon dioxide that's already up in the atmosphere is to throw up our hands and say, 'To hell with the Marshall Islands and the Maldive Islands and maybe some of the coastlines of Bangladesh.'"
But Kill is not flipping quarters. She's adamant that CCS is a false solution to climate change. "It avoids confronting and being outspoken about the need for a significant overhaul in how we produce and use energy," she said. "The appeal of geological carbon sequestration is that it promises to continue using energy as wastefully as we have done and that it doesn't require any significant changes in the way we use and produce electricity."
If there's a leak
The United States has a long history of trying to bury its burdens. The government is still scratching its head over where to stow the country's mounting nuclear waste. And just like with nuclear waste, opponents say the repercussions of CO2 that refuses to stay put is potentially catastrophic.
"Environmentally, it's incredibly dangerous," said Leonard, of the Rainforest Action Network. "Carbon is something that's potentially very deadly." Leonard pointed to the disaster in Cameroon in 1986, which baffled scientists when carbon dioxide escaped from a volcanic lake and killed 1,200 people and everything else within a 15-mile radius.
Even many CCS card-carrying scientists admit that there are uncertainties in expecting geologic formations to store carbon forever. While Herzog told the Senate subcommittee that CCS is "likely to be safe [and] effective," he also said key questions were, "What is the probability of CO2 escaping from injection sites? What are the attendant risks? Can we detect leakage if it occurs?"
But the letter from the NRDC and others said the success of three CCS pilot projects "give us a great deal of confidence that CO2 can remain permanently sequestered in geological reservoirs."
The NRDC dismisses frightening visions of carbon dioxide seeping from underground, writing, "We ... caution strongly against scenarios that present leakage as inevitable, or even likely. Leakage is conceivable, but is unlikely in well-selected sites, is generally avoidable, predictable, can be detected and remedied promptly, and in any case is extremely unlikely to be of a magnitude that would endanger human health and the environment if performed under adequate regulatory oversight and according to best practices."
In an interview last month on E&E TV's OnPoint, John Venezia, an associate with the World Resources Institute's Carbon Capture and Sequestration Project, detailed what could happen "if a project is not done properly."
"If the proper siting procedures aren't done, if proper monitoring technologies aren't in place and CO2 does leak into drinking water, that's an issue of contaminating underground sources of drinking water. And in worst-case scenarios we can back up the service where it could endanger the local ecosystem or human health."
But Venezia went on to say that the "benefits of doing CCS are really to the global community as a whole."
Benefits aside, the stored carbon dioxide is like a hot potato -- nobody wants to have the liability of ensuring hundreds of billions of tons of carbon dioxide that stays buried for hundreds of years.
"Who pays for it if there's a leak?" asked Jackson of Duke University.
Leonard thinks he knows. "[Industry has] been very upfront to Congress that there's no way that carbon sequestration will move forward unless the federal government assumes all liability for that project. It's very similar to what's happening to nuclear waste; industry is very happy to create it, but they themselves don't want to be stuck with the liability of what to do with that waste because they know it's dangerous."
The costs of CCS
Last week, Herzog told the Senate subcommittee that actually achieving greenhouse gas reductions from CCS requires 3,600 large-scale injection projects, with the possibility of more as coal burning increases. The cost of the endeavor could make Bill Gates blush.
Last month, Xcel Energy postponed construction of the nation's first CCS power plant because of cost. Xcel director Dick Kelly told the Denver Post the plant would be "way over $1 billion" and 20 percent more expensive than a conventional power plant.
Critics of CCS say the high cost of CCS technology could make electricity more expensive, while not driving down the costs of renewable energy.
"If that's the case, instead of spending an enormous amount of money sequestering that carbon, you should spend money accelerating the production of new power so you can close that plants down," Morris said.
Kill fears that investment in CCS will reduce financial commitments to renewable energy.
"With limited money, the more that's spent on technological fixes such as carbon sequestration, the less money will be available for research and development into energy storage, renewable energy and into overhauling the national electricity grid so they work best for renewable energy," Kill said.
Even if CCS becomes cheap, and scientists guarantee carbon dioxide will stay buried, some critics still won't be swayed. They say that although CCS addresses greenhouse gas emissions, it doesn't look at the ramifications of mining and shipping coal, and of the pollutants that are still released in the air during burning.
Although industry is marketing CCS as a "clean coal" technology, Leonard says the term is a misnomer, and that nothing about coal is clean.
"The idea of clean coal never addresses the impact of coal's entire lifecycle," Leonard said. "Coal mining is one of the most destructive environmental atrocities in this country or globally. They only address clean coal at its final stage of combustion at the power plant."
One destructive coal mining technique is mountaintop removal, a process where forests are clear-cut and the tops of mountains are blasted away with explosives to expose underlying layers of coal. The method has decimated the mountains and environment of Appalachia and produced devastating impacts on the health of communities.
Both Leonard and Kill fear that CCS will only spur more coal mining, not curb it.
"[CCS] distracts from the real task at hand, and that real task at hand is leaving a large proportion of fossil fuels that are still in the ground where they are," Kill said.
Kill said transitioning away from fossil fuels is possible with dedicated public investment in renewable energy and other low-carbon technologies. But in continuing down the path toward CCS, she said, "It's very likely that a trade-off will have to be made, and unfortunately it's clear that the trade-off will be to the disadvantage of the decentralized renewable energies we believe hold much more promise than this technological fix that may or may not work."
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: EDRO on Nov 24, 2007 1:45 AM
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Posted by: GPFrank on Nov 24, 2007 5:45 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
output from coal. It is only a problem for
a college freshman to calculate the energy required to compress CO2 to the pressure of one atmosphere (standard conditions) and then to condense it to a solid. Then you have to mine or dig for the sequestrant. (I wonder how much limestone there is) Really, " a billion here, a billion there" is toxic to the brains of those who think they are going to make money on a
boondogle.
I don't care how clean coal they say it is. If you have ever been near a power plant's smokestack it stinks.
As a further note, the coal emissions could even be addictive. When I was safety officer for a union we had to drag workers away from a job that was toxic. they didn't want to give it up.
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» RE: Thermodynamics and Mass
Posted by: Daniel35
» RE: Thermodynamics and Mass: Reply to Robinson
Posted by: GPFrank
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Posted by: mwildfire on Nov 24, 2007 6:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The thing is, global climate change is advancing on us like the monster in a horror movie, faster and faster. We don't have time to screw around with false "solutions" like CCS and ethanol; we need to be running full tilt toward real solutions, including energy efficiency technologies, reductions in total use, and massive R&D and construction of windmills, concentrated solar thermal plants in the southwestern deserts especially,and solar panels on tens of millions of roofs. The latter, especially, are also expensive--but once they're in place the fuel is free and there is no pollution, no CO2!
The problem is that our so-called democracy has been so thoroughly captured by corporations that the people no longer have significant influence over lawmakers who need to institute the required policies. They respond to the needs of the contributors who put them in office, mainly corporations which "need" more profit over the next quarter or the next year--the survival of the human race is not important enough to compete with that imperative.
The "green" groups mentioned in this piece have a long history of selling out to corporations, and need not be taken seriously as representing environmentalists.
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» RE: the CCS shell game
Posted by: racetoinfinity
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Posted by: oldwoman on Nov 24, 2007 6:40 AM
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Posted by: robchapman on Nov 24, 2007 6:52 AM
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But the author left out as important segment of the question- what technology do we have to replace coal as a fuel for electrical generators?
The anti-sequestration argument fails to provide proposals on suitable alternatives to the current technology and it fails to consider a political and economic strategy for imnplementing them.
By not adressing these aspects the anti-sequestration proponents leave the reader with the impression that without sequestration, there is no other alleviation for the continued uptick of atmospheric carbon.
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» The greatest technology of all: self-control
Posted by: eddie torres
» RE: The greatest technology of all: self-control. Yes!
Posted by: Beck
» RE: "So how will we generate electircity" - we won't.
Posted by: Daniel35
» RE: "So how will we generate electircity" - we won't.
Posted by: racetoinfinity
» RE: "So how will we generate electircity" - we won't.
Posted by: aedwards
» Here's how we will generate electircity
Posted by: PaulK
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Posted by: rjgwood on Nov 24, 2007 6:52 AM
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Posted by: P.E.A.C.E. on Nov 24, 2007 6:59 AM
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And what if that plant could make biodegradable plastics and a multitude of strong, light-weight building materials that would serve as carbon sinks for what is now atmospheric pollution?
And what if we could make everything that's currently being made from petroleum, better, cheaper, with less pollution out of this crop?
And what if that same crop was the most nutritionally complete, potentially abundant, and globally available agricultural resource on Earth?
And what if the same plant produced atmospheric aerosols called "monoterpenes," that reflect solar radiation back into space and seed cloud formation, protecting the planet from the Sun?
And what if the same rotational crop had exceptionally beneficial properties that helped other crops to grow, discouraged pest infestation, produced biogenic pesticides, regenerated damaged and depleted soil, allowing humankind to expand the arable base?
If there is such a plant, then wouldn't worsening conditions of environment, economics, food security, and social evolution justify suspension of the counter-productive "drug laws," to allow for a massive planting of this unique and essential agricultural resource?
Have unique and essential natural resources ever been within the rightful jurisdiction of any court?
How bad do things have to get before all solutions are considered?
Freedom to Farm, 2008.
Because time is the limiting factor in the equation of survival, and
We have nothing to fear but the atmosphere itself.
Paul J. von Hartmann
California Cannabis Ministry
http://www.californiacannabisministry.blogspot.com
Project P.E.A.C.E.
Planet Ecology Advancing Conscious Economics
http://www.webspawner.com/users/projectpeace
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» RE: Agricultural Carbon Sequestration
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Agricultural Carbon Sequestration
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: bornxeyed
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» Soil carbonization
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» Agricultural Carbon Mining & Oxygen Production
Posted by: P.E.A.C.E.
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Posted by: InsertNameHere on Nov 24, 2007 7:24 AM
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'Look, now we can burn all the coal we want, it's clean!' It's the Atkins diet for the energy industry, it's low-carb!
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Posted by: modeler on Nov 24, 2007 7:41 AM
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Posted by: DrColes on Nov 24, 2007 7:48 AM
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» RE: Its A SCAM!
Posted by: particle
» It's no use, "doctor" Coles
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Nov 24, 2007 7:53 AM
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» RE: This is utterly idiotic.
Posted by: justAnEgg
» Which is another reason...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: This is utterly idiotic.
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: bornxeyed
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» Where has all the carbon gone?
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: This is utterly idiotic.
Posted by: racetoinfinity
» Re:This is utterly idiotic.
Posted by: bornxeyed
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Posted by: justAnEgg on Nov 24, 2007 7:54 AM
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See the whole article, at:
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/11/21/5386/
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» Unfortunately, that's another "Clean Coal" PR stunt
Posted by: eddie torres
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Nov 24, 2007 10:17 AM
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So, what are the real alternatives?
1) Energy conservation and energy efficient technology must come first - vehicles that get 100 miles to the gallon, electric vehicles, a great reduction in jet travel and in global shipping, efficient electricity grids, better building design, low-energy agriculture techniques, etc. That means an end to the gross overconsumption lifestyle of the U.S.
2) Solar photovoltaics and solar hot water heating for every single dwelling on the planet. This means living within your means - shorter showers, lights turned off, etc. If you live near the equator, you have much more available sunlight than the northern regions - Africa, Central America, South Asia, and the Middle East are the best regions for solar power.
3) Wind turbines - the big, tall ones - for more notherly regions. These things generate a lot of electricity, especially in coastal offshore regions like the North Sea.
4) Energy storage and distribution systems - sunlight and wind are not available on demand - meaning that all that energy needs to be harvested and stored. A fuel cell-based system that efficiently converts sun and wind power to hydrogen fuel for use on-demand seems like the best system. This is likely best done in centralized power plant facilities. Solar panels on house rooftops will dump energy into central power plants that convert electricity to hydrogen; the hydrogen is converted back to electricity as needed.
This is all feasible, but will require many, many billions of capital investment. It will also make existing global reserves of coal, petroleum and natural gas essentially worthless (if not unavailable due to government regulations).
A few examples:
Chevron's natural gas fields and pipelines in Burma will become defunct. Chevron's plans to import natural gas to California will fall apart.
Exxon's Saudi and African oil reserves will become useless. The Saudi sheiks and their cousins will lose their million-dollar yearly allowances. The NYMEX and IPE energy trading exchanges will vanish into the air.
U.S. and Australian coal interests will find themselves holding stocks with zero value. No new coal-fired power plants will be built, and existing ones will be dismantled.
Electric utilities all around the world will lose more and more cash to off-the grid residences - or they will find themselves having to buy power from individual households. Their large profits will evaporate, and they may go out of business entirely.
So, that's well over 60% of Wall Street that will just evaporate if renewable energy becomes widespread. That's why they are fighting so hard to prevent renewables from coming online - which they've been doing for about a century, actually. Efficient solar hot water systems date back to the late 19th century. The first alcohol-electric hybrid vehicle was patented in 1903.
The control of energy means vast wealth and power for those who control it. Relinquishing control means giving up wealth and power - no more servants, luxury yachts, and Lear jets. However, sunlight and wind are free to any who can tap them - there's no pipeline or field to control. That's the reality of the situation.
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» But... how can I invest if my money is worthless?
Posted by: eddie torres
» RE: Here are the real solutions, and why the energy biz fears them:
Posted by: racetoinfinity
» Excellent comment....very informative.
Posted by: Bev
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Nov 24, 2007 10:48 AM
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"When was the last time you checked your gas or electricity meter? It might sound like a bit of a boring question, but, when you consider the size of the average energy bill these days (around £1,000 a year for both gas and electricity), and how much it can cost if you don't keep your meter readings up to date, it starts to become somewhat clearer why it's important. . ."
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» RE: P.S. read this:
Posted by: bornxeyed
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Posted by: don_alejandro on Nov 24, 2007 12:14 PM
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» NICE! -nm - empty, nothing to see here, move along
Posted by: bornxeyed
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Posted by: wonkywriter on Nov 24, 2007 12:52 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The reason Dick Kelly and the Xcel Board made that decision is because of the hard work of two unpaid women environmental activists, Leslie Glustrom and Nancy LaPlata of Clean Energy Action, http://www.cleanenergyaction.org/index.html.
Their argument was so simple it almost sells itself. Carbon capture and sequestration is the taking of "black sunshine"--coal--from deep in the ground, converting it into a gas which is burned to produce the heat that converts water into steam, then trapping the escaping CO2, compressing it and then forcing it back into deep holes in the ground--in essence, putting the carbon back where it came from originally. Coal is carbon that has been sequestered by nature. The solution, according to Clean Energy Action, is not to look downward for our future energy but to look--guess where--upward, toward the sun.
There is a working parabolic solar thermal generating plant in California that produces commercial electricity at a cost of $0.13 per kwh. For comparison, photovoltaic (solar panel) electricity costs about $0.20 per kwh and electricity from dirty coal-fired power plants costs approximately $0.055 per kwh (exclusive of the environmental and health costs of mining, shipping, and burning the coal). An Australian firm has developed a Compact Linear Fresnel Reflector solar system that produces commercial electricity at a cost of $0.10 per kwh (http://www.ausra.com/technology/).
When you consider that Xcel estimates the cost of a new "clean coal" power plant with CCS to be "way over $1B", it doesn't take a genius to realize that it's best to let sleeping CO2 lie.
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Posted by: willymack on Nov 24, 2007 1:56 PM
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Posted by: Togetherness8 on Nov 24, 2007 3:16 PM
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» The mostest perfectest solution!
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: The mostest perfectest solution!
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: The mostest perfectest solution!
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Other Alternatives?
Posted by: racetoinfinity
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Nov 24, 2007 3:45 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
CO2 underground, why don't we remove CO2 from the air to put underground?
Of course it would be dangerous, as in the Lake Nyos and Lake Monoun Effect.
If we stopped burning coal we could use left over solar energy, if we had any, to
remove CO2 from the air and pump it into those underground reservoirs that King
Coal wants to use up. In so doing, we could reverse the global warming that we
have already caused. Of course, this is just a pipe dream, just like those
"renewable" energy ideas. The only safe energy source that we have technology
for NOW that has any hope of driving out coal by undercutting its cost, is nuclear.
There is no such thing as nuclear "waste." We used to reprocess "spent" fuel and
we should again, and build reactors that use their own "waste" as fuel. Yes, we
have spent the last 60 years improving the safety of nuclear power. Coal kills
20,000 to 30,000 Americans every year by poisoning the air with: URANIUM,
ARSENIC, LEAD, MERCURY, Antimony, Cobalt, Nickel, Copper, Selenium,
Barium, Fluorine, Silver, Beryllium, Iron, Sulfur, Boron, Titanium, Cadmium,
Magnesium, Calcium, Manganese, Vanadium, Chlorine, Aluminum, Chromium,
Molybdenum and Zinc.
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» RE: Carbon Capture: Deadly Liability indeed
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Carbon Capture: Deadly Liability indeed
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» RE: Carbon Capture: Deadly Liability indeed
Posted by: bornxeyed
» We're not reprocessing spent fuel, though; we're storing it for others to cope with
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Nov 24, 2007 6:09 PM
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Go to the mountains of Colorado where mining has long ago ceased and survey the environmental damage to streams. Actually, anyplace where humans have been playing around in this way will show the effects.
There is no free lunch, folks.
There is a way to live with the earth and many ways to live against it. I suggest that we get on the right track. That does not include buying carbon offsets, sequestering byproduct in the ground, acid leach mining, etc.
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Nov 24, 2007 7:43 PM
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out. Congratulations.
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» Alot of the dreamers are also smart enough to know that future inhabitants of earth. . .
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: Gazza126 on Nov 24, 2007 8:01 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The first is tidal power. In some parts of the world, tides are as high as 5-7 feet. Dams and generators put in the right places could easily generate huge volumes of electricty.
In fact, a 1986 proposal by the Australian Institute of Electrical Engineers for a tidal power plant in north-western Australia (where 5-ft tides are normal) estimated such a project could increase Australia's total energy output 16-fold.
The other idea, also proposed in the mid-80's - this time by Buckminster Fuller - is for a global electricity grid. Surely a global grid would reduce the world-wide demand for new power plants while allowing us to make far more efficient use of the generating capacity we already have. Heck, if we're lucky, it might even allow us to close down the most polluting power plants forever.
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» RE: Why is this not on the agenda??
Posted by: bornxeyed
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Posted by: GreyFlcn on Nov 25, 2007 12:55 AM
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To put things in perspective.
1. Coal used to cost $1000/KW a couple years back.
2. Now complying with the 2005 Clean Air Act coal costs $3000/KW
3. Doing coal with CCS would cost in the range of $6500/KW
4. That costs more than virtually any other renewable energy technology, plus storage.
So really ask yourself, why should we be doing coal at all?
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» RE: How much does CCS cost? Too much.
Posted by: Carol Overland
» RE: How much does CCS cost? Too much.
Posted by: Daniel35
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Posted by: Carol Overland on Nov 25, 2007 6:00 AM
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Cost of CSS is a key to exposing the falacies. Capital cost of IGCC before sequestratrion (last $ figure 7/06) was $2,155,860,763, or $3,595/kW, and it's risen since then -- they're being cancelled all over the country due to excessive cost. With CSS (keep in mind that CSS does not exist on a commercial level), the Booz Allen Hamilton report says that it's only calculated to the plant gate, pipeline, recompression and storage are not included) and even this half-baked plan is so pricy that the industry models default to "cap & trade" and they don't consider it further. For a very conservative recap of IGCC and CSS costs, see testimony of Dr. Elion Amit, MN Dept. of Commerce, and his analysis of Excelsior Energy's Mesaba Project, and those numbers contrasted in red on a chart from "The Path to Carbon Capture and Storage," which is a bunch of crap (and don't even suggest burning all these reports as biomass, too much CO2 and particulate matter):
http://legalectric.org/weblog/1699/
Enough of CO2 generation TALKING about coal, we have to stop producing CO2, shut down existing plants and not build more burners.
Carol A. Overland
Attorney for mncoalgasplant.com, Intervenor in Excelsior Energy/Mesaba Project docket.
www.legalectric.org
www.nocapx2020.info
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Posted by: Leslie Glustrom on Nov 25, 2007 8:09 AM
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The good news is there is a carbon-free alternative for producing electricity called Concentrating Solar Power (think "sunlight and mirrors" to produce the steam for a steam turbine plant)that is also cheaper!! Hopefully Megan can do a story on that before long--that would be wonderful!
For a fun and quick introduction to one form of CSP go to www.ausra.com . Get the school kids in your life to use the website to write fun papers for school about the dawn of the solar age. There is great information there!
More background information is available at www.cleanenergyaction.org.
For more technical informatin on Concentrating Solar Power go to the National Renewable Energy Lab website at www.nrel.gov/csp/troughnet.
Xcel Energy,to their credit, had their engineers take a hard look and compared coal gasification (aka IGCC) to CSP and the numbers are impressive. Concentrating Solar Power beats coal gasification hands down on cost and is fuel, carbon and other pollutant free!
For other parts of the county, we just have to commit to a national transmission system that allows us to "ship electrons" instead of our present system of shipping coal over our antiquated railway system.
After putting their engineers to the task, Xcel Energy found that Concentrating Solar Power plants with 6 hours of thermal storage can be built for $2572/kW while IGCC plants with (only) 50% carbon capture (and no mention of storage) are expected to cost $3912/kW.
CSP has no fuel costs and essentially no waste management costs. IGCC will require a supply of coal (that is mounting steadily in price) and will always lead to increased (not decreased) CO2 emissions and produce massive amounts of solid waste and the $3912/kW doesn't include CO2 storage costs....
Now you can see why Xcel, when they took a close look, "deferred" their plans for a coal gasification plant until after 2015 at the earliest--and no one expects the costs of coal gasification to go down, while CSP costs are expected to fall significantly in the coming decades.
To the extent that other parts of the country have electrical generation needs that they can't meet with efficiency or local generation, we can build a national transmission system that allows us to "ship electrons" instead of our present system of shipping (massively environmentally destructive)coal over our creaky railroad system.
To see Xcel's recently submitted Resource Plan go to www.xcelenergy.com and from the home paqe look under "About Energy and Rates" for the Colorado Resource Plan. The direct url is too long to post here. Sorry...
The numbers comparing CSP to IGCC are on page 1-55. This is in Volume 1, Part 2--and the link for that is also too long for this site...Let me know if you can't find it...
As we say in Clean Energy Action, "Looking for new energy? Look up not down!"
The end of the fossil fuel era is upon us and that holds mountains(excuse the pun)of bad news, but it is also the beginning of the solar era and that is tremendously exciting!
Remember to "Look Up" for the path forward,
Leslie Glustrom with Clean Energy Action in Colorado
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Posted by: nanboski on Nov 25, 2007 10:30 AM
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Since the report was written in early October, Xcel cancelled its plant, and Southern Company cancelled an IGCC in Orlando that it had already been granted over $235 million (see Federal Register April 6, 2007, Volume 72, Number 66, Page 17143-17149, or DOE/EIS-0383).
Capturing the CO2 takes 20-25% of the plant's energy - so that you must burn 20-25% more coal for the same energy output. (See EPA July 2006 Report on IGCC, Environmental Costs and Footprints).
There are only 3 locations in the world currently capturing and sequestering CO2: Weyburn Canada, under the North Sea in Norway (Statiol), and Al Salah Algeria. EACH location stores 1 million tons/year. THat's a pittance - ONE coal plant emits about 5 million tons CO2/year.
Statoil has released data about how much it's spending to store that CO2: $125,000/day; or $45 million/year for 1 million tons.
And then there's the liability: in th e1960's, the Army Corp injected 165 million gallons of liquid waste from Rocky Mountain Arsenal under the Denver basin, inducing ~1,500 seismic events from 1962-1967, three above Richter magnitude 5. Ironically, my father-in-law, George E. Bardwell (who is now 84 years old), assisted the geologists with the study to prove the statistical correlation between injection and the earthquakes.
Invest in the future. Efficiency is the bridge to renewables.
Nancy LaPlaca nancy@energyjustice.net/coal/igcc for an IGCC fact sheet
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Posted by: nanboski on Nov 25, 2007 10:33 AM
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http://www.westgov.org/wga/initiatives/cdeac/index.htm
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Posted by: davidhill on Nov 25, 2007 11:46 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Therefore with regard to carbon capturing, what we are doing here is basically putting off as usual, problems that our future generations will have to solve. Therefore carbon capture is just putting off the inevitable and where the big multinationals will make literally billions out of a regime of continuation and where no real solutions are found.
What in essence should be happening is that governments around the world should be investing in the development of a centralised global centre that solves the world's immense problems, not putting them off for others to solve at a later date. We as the independent scientific minds have been telling governments for a decade now to develop the concept of the ORE-STEM complex with its 1000 plus incubator centres around the world. Simply, this mechanism harnesses the world's creative thinking and siphons it into this huge centre to solve the biggest problems that confronts humankind and possibly save it from extinction. It is common sense in reality, as only a mechanism large enough to stop the worst effects of global warming and provide the necessary answers to famine, population explosion (now predicted to be a minimum of 10 billion by 2050 and possibly even 12 billion) and alternative energy sources (new discoveries) et al. Therefore the world has to force forward what the independent scientific community is saying, for if not, we certainly run the greatest risk of all, the extinction of the human experience itself.
Dr David Hill
World Innovation Foundation
Bern, Switzerland
.
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Posted by: davidhill on Nov 25, 2007 11:48 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Therefore with regard to carbon capturing, what we are doing here is basically putting off as usual, problems that our future generations will have to solve. Therefore carbon capture is just putting off the inevitable and where the big multinationals will make literally billions out of a regime of continuation and where no real solutions are found.
What in essence should be happening is that governments around the world should be investing in the development of a centralised global centre that solves the world's immense problems, not putting them off for others to solve at a later date. We as the independent scientific minds have been telling governments for a decade now to develop the concept of the ORE-STEM complex with its 1000 plus incubator centres around the world. Simply, this mechanism harnesses the world's creative thinking and siphons it into this huge centre to solve the biggest problems that confronts humankind and possibly save it from extinction. It is common sense in reality, as only a mechanism large enough to stop the worst effects of global warming and provide the necessary answers to famine, population explosion (now predicted to be a minimum of 10 billion by 2050 and possibly even 12 billion) and alternative energy sources (new discoveries) et al. Therefore the world has to force forward what the independent scientific community is saying, for if not, we certainly run the greatest risk of all, the extinction of the human experience itself.
Dr David Hill
World Innovation Foundation
Bern, Switzerland
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Posted by: Ames on Nov 25, 2007 4:16 PM
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we currently have a number of proven methods of clean energy which they refused to finance - wind, solar, tidal and other emerging methods which woul require less financing for research and would produce much cleaner energy without the complicating 'what if it all goes wrong' factor.
geo-sequestration is simply a way to delay action and to keep their friends in coal and oil rich and happy and having a virtual monopoly over energy production. forgive my cynicism, but until the science adds up properly and they can be 100% sure about the safety of the carbon storage, i don't want a bar of it. it's too much like nuclear power, with the nasty by-product that has the potential to do some real damage if it doesn't all go to plan (though i acknowledge not quite as catastrophic). it's not a REAL answer to clean energy, it seems like such a waste of time, of which we have so little to act.
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Posted by: EDRO on Nov 25, 2007 4:52 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
CASF is seeking partners in all focus areas and invites new members to its Steering Committee.
For more information, please visit http://edro.wordpress.com/
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Posted by: EDRO on Nov 24, 2007 1:45 AM
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Posted by: GPFrank on Nov 24, 2007 5:45 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
output from coal. It is only a problem for
a college freshman to calculate the energy required to compress CO2 to the pressure of one atmosphere (standard conditions) and then to condense it to a solid. Then you have to mine or dig for the sequestrant. (I wonder how much limestone there is) Really, " a billion here, a billion there" is toxic to the brains of those who think they are going to make money on a
boondogle.
I don't care how clean coal they say it is. If you have ever been near a power plant's smokestack it stinks.
As a further note, the coal emissions could even be addictive. When I was safety officer for a union we had to drag workers away from a job that was toxic. they didn't want to give it up.
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» RE: Thermodynamics and Mass
Posted by: Daniel35
» RE: Thermodynamics and Mass: Reply to Robinson
Posted by: GPFrank
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Posted by: mwildfire on Nov 24, 2007 6:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The thing is, global climate change is advancing on us like the monster in a horror movie, faster and faster. We don't have time to screw around with false "solutions" like CCS and ethanol; we need to be running full tilt toward real solutions, including energy efficiency technologies, reductions in total use, and massive R&D and construction of windmills, concentrated solar thermal plants in the southwestern deserts especially,and solar panels on tens of millions of roofs. The latter, especially, are also expensive--but once they're in place the fuel is free and there is no pollution, no CO2!
The problem is that our so-called democracy has been so thoroughly captured by corporations that the people no longer have significant influence over lawmakers who need to institute the required policies. They respond to the needs of the contributors who put them in office, mainly corporations which "need" more profit over the next quarter or the next year--the survival of the human race is not important enough to compete with that imperative.
The "green" groups mentioned in this piece have a long history of selling out to corporations, and need not be taken seriously as representing environmentalists.
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» RE: the CCS shell game
Posted by: racetoinfinity
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Posted by: oldwoman on Nov 24, 2007 6:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: robchapman on Nov 24, 2007 6:52 AM
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But the author left out as important segment of the question- what technology do we have to replace coal as a fuel for electrical generators?
The anti-sequestration argument fails to provide proposals on suitable alternatives to the current technology and it fails to consider a political and economic strategy for imnplementing them.
By not adressing these aspects the anti-sequestration proponents leave the reader with the impression that without sequestration, there is no other alleviation for the continued uptick of atmospheric carbon.
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» The greatest technology of all: self-control
Posted by: eddie torres
» RE: The greatest technology of all: self-control. Yes!
Posted by: Beck
» RE: "So how will we generate electircity" - we won't.
Posted by: Daniel35
» RE: "So how will we generate electircity" - we won't.
Posted by: racetoinfinity
» RE: "So how will we generate electircity" - we won't.
Posted by: aedwards
» Here's how we will generate electircity
Posted by: PaulK
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Posted by: rjgwood on Nov 24, 2007 6:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: P.E.A.C.E. on Nov 24, 2007 6:59 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And what if that plant could make biodegradable plastics and a multitude of strong, light-weight building materials that would serve as carbon sinks for what is now atmospheric pollution?
And what if we could make everything that's currently being made from petroleum, better, cheaper, with less pollution out of this crop?
And what if that same crop was the most nutritionally complete, potentially abundant, and globally available agricultural resource on Earth?
And what if the same plant produced atmospheric aerosols called "monoterpenes," that reflect solar radiation back into space and seed cloud formation, protecting the planet from the Sun?
And what if the same rotational crop had exceptionally beneficial properties that helped other crops to grow, discouraged pest infestation, produced biogenic pesticides, regenerated damaged and depleted soil, allowing humankind to expand the arable base?
If there is such a plant, then wouldn't worsening conditions of environment, economics, food security, and social evolution justify suspension of the counter-productive "drug laws," to allow for a massive planting of this unique and essential agricultural resource?
Have unique and essential natural resources ever been within the rightful jurisdiction of any court?
How bad do things have to get before all solutions are considered?
Freedom to Farm, 2008.
Because time is the limiting factor in the equation of survival, and
We have nothing to fear but the atmosphere itself.
Paul J. von Hartmann
California Cannabis Ministry
http://www.californiacannabisministry.blogspot.com
Project P.E.A.C.E.
Planet Ecology Advancing Conscious Economics
http://www.webspawner.com/users/projectpeace
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» RE: Agricultural Carbon Sequestration
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Agricultural Carbon Sequestration
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: bornxeyed
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» Soil carbonization
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» Agricultural Carbon Mining & Oxygen Production
Posted by: P.E.A.C.E.
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Posted by: InsertNameHere on Nov 24, 2007 7:24 AM
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'Look, now we can burn all the coal we want, it's clean!' It's the Atkins diet for the energy industry, it's low-carb!
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Posted by: modeler on Nov 24, 2007 7:41 AM
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Posted by: DrColes on Nov 24, 2007 7:48 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Its A SCAM!
Posted by: particle
» It's no use, "doctor" Coles
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Nov 24, 2007 7:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: This is utterly idiotic.
Posted by: justAnEgg
» Which is another reason...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: This is utterly idiotic.
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: bornxeyed
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» Where has all the carbon gone?
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: This is utterly idiotic.
Posted by: racetoinfinity
» Re:This is utterly idiotic.
Posted by: bornxeyed
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Posted by: justAnEgg on Nov 24, 2007 7:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
See the whole article, at:
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/11/21/5386/
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» Unfortunately, that's another "Clean Coal" PR stunt
Posted by: eddie torres
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Nov 24, 2007 10:17 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So, what are the real alternatives?
1) Energy conservation and energy efficient technology must come first - vehicles that get 100 miles to the gallon, electric vehicles, a great reduction in jet travel and in global shipping, efficient electricity grids, better building design, low-energy agriculture techniques, etc. That means an end to the gross overconsumption lifestyle of the U.S.
2) Solar photovoltaics and solar hot water heating for every single dwelling on the planet. This means living within your means - shorter showers, lights turned off, etc. If you live near the equator, you have much more available sunlight than the northern regions - Africa, Central America, South Asia, and the Middle East are the best regions for solar power.
3) Wind turbines - the big, tall ones - for more notherly regions. These things generate a lot of electricity, especially in coastal offshore regions like the North Sea.
4) Energy storage and distribution systems - sunlight and wind are not available on demand - meaning that all that energy needs to be harvested and stored. A fuel cell-based system that efficiently converts sun and wind power to hydrogen fuel for use on-demand seems like the best system. This is likely best done in centralized power plant facilities. Solar panels on house rooftops will dump energy into central power plants that convert electricity to hydrogen; the hydrogen is converted back to electricity as needed.
This is all feasible, but will require many, many billions of capital investment. It will also make existing global reserves of coal, petroleum and natural gas essentially worthless (if not unavailable due to government regulations).
A few examples:
Chevron's natural gas fields and pipelines in Burma will become defunct. Chevron's plans to import natural gas to California will fall apart.
Exxon's Saudi and African oil reserves will become useless. The Saudi sheiks and their cousins will lose their million-dollar yearly allowances. The NYMEX and IPE energy trading exchanges will vanish into the air.
U.S. and Australian coal interests will find themselves holding stocks with zero value. No new coal-fired power plants will be built, and existing ones will be dismantled.
Electric utilities all around the world will lose more and more cash to off-the grid residences - or they will find themselves having to buy power from individual households. Their large profits will evaporate, and they may go out of business entirely.
So, that's well over 60% of Wall Street that will just evaporate if renewable energy becomes widespread. That's why they are fighting so hard to prevent renewables from coming online - which they've been doing for about a century, actually. Efficient solar hot water systems date back to the late 19th century. The first alcohol-electric hybrid vehicle was patented in 1903.
The control of energy means vast wealth and power for those who control it. Relinquishing control means giving up wealth and power - no more servants, luxury yachts, and Lear jets. However, sunlight and wind are free to any who can tap them - there's no pipeline or field to control. That's the reality of the situation.
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» But... how can I invest if my money is worthless?
Posted by: eddie torres
» RE: Here are the real solutions, and why the energy biz fears them:
Posted by: racetoinfinity
» Excellent comment....very informative.
Posted by: Bev
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Nov 24, 2007 10:48 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"When was the last time you checked your gas or electricity meter? It might sound like a bit of a boring question, but, when you consider the size of the average energy bill these days (around £1,000 a year for both gas and electricity), and how much it can cost if you don't keep your meter readings up to date, it starts to become somewhat clearer why it's important. . ."
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» RE: P.S. read this:
Posted by: bornxeyed
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Posted by: don_alejandro on Nov 24, 2007 12:14 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» NICE! -nm - empty, nothing to see here, move along
Posted by: bornxeyed
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Posted by: wonkywriter on Nov 24, 2007 12:52 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The reason Dick Kelly and the Xcel Board made that decision is because of the hard work of two unpaid women environmental activists, Leslie Glustrom and Nancy LaPlata of Clean Energy Action, http://www.cleanenergyaction.org/index.html.
Their argument was so simple it almost sells itself. Carbon capture and sequestration is the taking of "black sunshine"--coal--from deep in the ground, converting it into a gas which is burned to produce the heat that converts water into steam, then trapping the escaping CO2, compressing it and then forcing it back into deep holes in the ground--in essence, putting the carbon back where it came from originally. Coal is carbon that has been sequestered by nature. The solution, according to Clean Energy Action, is not to look downward for our future energy but to look--guess where--upward, toward the sun.
There is a working parabolic solar thermal generating plant in California that produces commercial electricity at a cost of $0.13 per kwh. For comparison, photovoltaic (solar panel) electricity costs about $0.20 per kwh and electricity from dirty coal-fired power plants costs approximately $0.055 per kwh (exclusive of the environmental and health costs of mining, shipping, and burning the coal). An Australian firm has developed a Compact Linear Fresnel Reflector solar system that produces commercial electricity at a cost of $0.10 per kwh (http://www.ausra.com/technology/).
When you consider that Xcel estimates the cost of a new "clean coal" power plant with CCS to be "way over $1B", it doesn't take a genius to realize that it's best to let sleeping CO2 lie.
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Posted by: willymack on Nov 24, 2007 1:56 PM
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Posted by: Togetherness8 on Nov 24, 2007 3:16 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» The mostest perfectest solution!
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: The mostest perfectest solution!
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: The mostest perfectest solution!
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Other Alternatives?
Posted by: racetoinfinity
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Nov 24, 2007 3:45 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
CO2 underground, why don't we remove CO2 from the air to put underground?
Of course it would be dangerous, as in the Lake Nyos and Lake Monoun Effect.
If we stopped burning coal we could use left over solar energy, if we had any, to
remove CO2 from the air and pump it into those underground reservoirs that King
Coal wants to use up. In so doing, we could reverse the global warming that we
have already caused. Of course, this is just a pipe dream, just like those
"renewable" energy ideas. The only safe energy source that we have technology
for NOW that has any hope of driving out coal by undercutting its cost, is nuclear.
There is no such thing as nuclear "waste." We used to reprocess "spent" fuel and
we should again, and build reactors that use their own "waste" as fuel. Yes, we
have spent the last 60 years improving the safety of nuclear power. Coal kills
20,000 to 30,000 Americans every year by poisoning the air with: URANIUM,
ARSENIC, LEAD, MERCURY, Antimony, Cobalt, Nickel, Copper, Selenium,
Barium, Fluorine, Silver, Beryllium, Iron, Sulfur, Boron, Titanium, Cadmium,
Magnesium, Calcium, Manganese, Vanadium, Chlorine, Aluminum, Chromium,
Molybdenum and Zinc.
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» RE: Carbon Capture: Deadly Liability indeed
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Carbon Capture: Deadly Liability indeed
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» RE: Carbon Capture: Deadly Liability indeed
Posted by: bornxeyed
» We're not reprocessing spent fuel, though; we're storing it for others to cope with
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Nov 24, 2007 6:09 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Go to the mountains of Colorado where mining has long ago ceased and survey the environmental damage to streams. Actually, anyplace where humans have been playing around in this way will show the effects.
There is no free lunch, folks.
There is a way to live with the earth and many ways to live against it. I suggest that we get on the right track. That does not include buying carbon offsets, sequestering byproduct in the ground, acid leach mining, etc.
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Nov 24, 2007 7:43 PM
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out. Congratulations.
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» Alot of the dreamers are also smart enough to know that future inhabitants of earth. . .
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: Gazza126 on Nov 24, 2007 8:01 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The first is tidal power. In some parts of the world, tides are as high as 5-7 feet. Dams and generators put in the right places could easily generate huge volumes of electricty.
In fact, a 1986 proposal by the Australian Institute of Electrical Engineers for a tidal power plant in north-western Australia (where 5-ft tides are normal) estimated such a project could increase Australia's total energy output 16-fold.
The other idea, also proposed in the mid-80's - this time by Buckminster Fuller - is for a global electricity grid. Surely a global grid would reduce the world-wide demand for new power plants while allowing us to make far more efficient use of the generating capacity we already have. Heck, if we're lucky, it might even allow us to close down the most polluting power plants forever.
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» RE: Why is this not on the agenda??
Posted by: bornxeyed
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Posted by: GreyFlcn on Nov 25, 2007 12:55 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To put things in perspective.
1. Coal used to cost $1000/KW a couple years back.
2. Now complying with the 2005 Clean Air Act coal costs $3000/KW
3. Doing coal with CCS would cost in the range of $6500/KW
4. That costs more than virtually any other renewable energy technology, plus storage.
So really ask yourself, why should we be doing coal at all?
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» RE: How much does CCS cost? Too much.
Posted by: Carol Overland
» RE: How much does CCS cost? Too much.
Posted by: Daniel35
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Posted by: Carol Overland on Nov 25, 2007 6:00 AM
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Cost of CSS is a key to exposing the falacies. Capital cost of IGCC before sequestratrion (last $ figure 7/06) was $2,155,860,763, or $3,595/kW, and it's risen since then -- they're being cancelled all over the country due to excessive cost. With CSS (keep in mind that CSS does not exist on a commercial level), the Booz Allen Hamilton report says that it's only calculated to the plant gate, pipeline, recompression and storage are not included) and even this half-baked plan is so pricy that the industry models default to "cap & trade" and they don't consider it further. For a very conservative recap of IGCC and CSS costs, see testimony of Dr. Elion Amit, MN Dept. of Commerce, and his analysis of Excelsior Energy's Mesaba Project, and those numbers contrasted in red on a chart from "The Path to Carbon Capture and Storage," which is a bunch of crap (and don't even suggest burning all these reports as biomass, too much CO2 and particulate matter):
http://legalectric.org/weblog/1699/
Enough of CO2 generation TALKING about coal, we have to stop producing CO2, shut down existing plants and not build more burners.
Carol A. Overland
Attorney for mncoalgasplant.com, Intervenor in Excelsior Energy/Mesaba Project docket.
www.legalectric.org
www.nocapx2020.info
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Posted by: Leslie Glustrom on Nov 25, 2007 8:09 AM
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The good news is there is a carbon-free alternative for producing electricity called Concentrating Solar Power (think "sunlight and mirrors" to produce the steam for a steam turbine plant)that is also cheaper!! Hopefully Megan can do a story on that before long--that would be wonderful!
For a fun and quick introduction to one form of CSP go to www.ausra.com . Get the school kids in your life to use the website to write fun papers for school about the dawn of the solar age. There is great information there!
More background information is available at www.cleanenergyaction.org.
For more technical informatin on Concentrating Solar Power go to the National Renewable Energy Lab website at www.nrel.gov/csp/troughnet.
Xcel Energy,to their credit, had their engineers take a hard look and compared coal gasification (aka IGCC) to CSP and the numbers are impressive. Concentrating Solar Power beats coal gasification hands down on cost and is fuel, carbon and other pollutant free!
For other parts of the county, we just have to commit to a national transmission system that allows us to "ship electrons" instead of our present system of shipping coal over our antiquated railway system.
After putting their engineers to the task, Xcel Energy found that Concentrating Solar Power plants with 6 hours of thermal storage can be built for $2572/kW while IGCC plants with (only) 50% carbon capture (and no mention of storage) are expected to cost $3912/kW.
CSP has no fuel costs and essentially no waste management costs. IGCC will require a supply of coal (that is mounting steadily in price) and will always lead to increased (not decreased) CO2 emissions and produce massive amounts of solid waste and the $3912/kW doesn't include CO2 storage costs....
Now you can see why Xcel, when they took a close look, "deferred" their plans for a coal gasification plant until after 2015 at the earliest--and no one expects the costs of coal gasification to go down, while CSP costs are expected to fall significantly in the coming decades.
To the extent that other parts of the country have electrical generation needs that they can't meet with efficiency or local generation, we can build a national transmission system that allows us to "ship electrons" instead of our present system of shipping (massively environmentally destructive)coal over our creaky railroad system.
To see Xcel's recently submitted Resource Plan go to www.xcelenergy.com and from the home paqe look under "About Energy and Rates" for the Colorado Resource Plan. The direct url is too long to post here. Sorry...
The numbers comparing CSP to IGCC are on page 1-55. This is in Volume 1, Part 2--and the link for that is also too long for this site...Let me know if you can't find it...
As we say in Clean Energy Action, "Looking for new energy? Look up not down!"
The end of the fossil fuel era is upon us and that holds mountains(excuse the pun)of bad news, but it is also the beginning of the solar era and that is tremendously exciting!
Remember to "Look Up" for the path forward,
Leslie Glustrom with Clean Energy Action in Colorado
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Posted by: nanboski on Nov 25, 2007 10:30 AM
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Since the report was written in early October, Xcel cancelled its plant, and Southern Company cancelled an IGCC in Orlando that it had already been granted over $235 million (see Federal Register April 6, 2007, Volume 72, Number 66, Page 17143-17149, or DOE/EIS-0383).
Capturing the CO2 takes 20-25% of the plant's energy - so that you must burn 20-25% more coal for the same energy output. (See EPA July 2006 Report on IGCC, Environmental Costs and Footprints).
There are only 3 locations in the world currently capturing and sequestering CO2: Weyburn Canada, under the North Sea in Norway (Statiol), and Al Salah Algeria. EACH location stores 1 million tons/year. THat's a pittance - ONE coal plant emits about 5 million tons CO2/year.
Statoil has released data about how much it's spending to store that CO2: $125,000/day; or $45 million/year for 1 million tons.
And then there's the liability: in th e1960's, the Army Corp injected 165 million gallons of liquid waste from Rocky Mountain Arsenal under the Denver basin, inducing ~1,500 seismic events from 1962-1967, three above Richter magnitude 5. Ironically, my father-in-law, George E. Bardwell (who is now 84 years old), assisted the geologists with the study to prove the statistical correlation between injection and the earthquakes.
Invest in the future. Efficiency is the bridge to renewables.
Nancy LaPlaca nancy@energyjustice.net/coal/igcc for an IGCC fact sheet
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Posted by: nanboski on Nov 25, 2007 10:33 AM
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http://www.westgov.org/wga/initiatives/cdeac/index.htm
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Posted by: davidhill on Nov 25, 2007 11:46 AM
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Therefore with regard to carbon capturing, what we are doing here is basically putting off as usual, problems that our future generations will have to solve. Therefore carbon capture is just putting off the inevitable and where the big multinationals will make literally billions out of a regime of continuation and where no real solutions are found.
What in essence should be happening is that governments around the world should be investing in the development of a centralised global centre that solves the world's immense problems, not putting them off for others to solve at a later date. We as the independent scientific minds have been telling governments for a decade now to develop the concept of the ORE-STEM complex with its 1000 plus incubator centres around the world. Simply, this mechanism harnesses the world's creative thinking and siphons it into this huge centre to solve the biggest problems that confronts humankind and possibly save it from extinction. It is common sense in reality, as only a mechanism large enough to stop the worst effects of global warming and provide the necessary answers to famine, population explosion (now predicted to be a minimum of 10 billion by 2050 and possibly even 12 billion) and alternative energy sources (new discoveries) et al. Therefore the world has to force forward what the independent scientific community is saying, for if not, we certainly run the greatest risk of all, the extinction of the human experience itself.
Dr David Hill
World Innovation Foundation
Bern, Switzerland
.
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Posted by: davidhill on Nov 25, 2007 11:48 AM
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Therefore with regard to carbon capturing, what we are doing here is basically putting off as usual, problems that our future generations will have to solve. Therefore carbon capture is just putting off the inevitable and where the big multinationals will make literally billions out of a regime of continuation and where no real solutions are found.
What in essence should be happening is that governments around the world should be investing in the development of a centralised global centre that solves the world's immense problems, not putting them off for others to solve at a later date. We as the independent scientific minds have been telling governments for a decade now to develop the concept of the ORE-STEM complex with its 1000 plus incubator centres around the world. Simply, this mechanism harnesses the world's creative thinking and siphons it into this huge centre to solve the biggest problems that confronts humankind and possibly save it from extinction. It is common sense in reality, as only a mechanism large enough to stop the worst effects of global warming and provide the necessary answers to famine, population explosion (now predicted to be a minimum of 10 billion by 2050 and possibly even 12 billion) and alternative energy sources (new discoveries) et al. Therefore the world has to force forward what the independent scientific community is saying, for if not, we certainly run the greatest risk of all, the extinction of the human experience itself.
Dr David Hill
World Innovation Foundation
Bern, Switzerland
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Posted by: Ames on Nov 25, 2007 4:16 PM
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we currently have a number of proven methods of clean energy which they refused to finance - wind, solar, tidal and other emerging methods which woul require less financing for research and would produce much cleaner energy without the complicating 'what if it all goes wrong' factor.
geo-sequestration is simply a way to delay action and to keep their friends in coal and oil rich and happy and having a virtual monopoly over energy production. forgive my cynicism, but until the science adds up properly and they can be 100% sure about the safety of the carbon storage, i don't want a bar of it. it's too much like nuclear power, with the nasty by-product that has the potential to do some real damage if it doesn't all go to plan (though i acknowledge not quite as catastrophic). it's not a REAL answer to clean energy, it seems like such a waste of time, of which we have so little to act.
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Posted by: EDRO on Nov 25, 2007 4:52 PM
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CASF is seeking partners in all focus areas and invites new members to its Steering Committee.
For more information, please visit http://edro.wordpress.com/
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