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Environment

Do Progressives Have the Wrong Idea About Change?

By Ted Nordhaus and Michael Shellenberger, AlterNet. Posted October 8, 2007.


The authors of the new book Break Through argue that scaring people with bad news about the environment is no way to get them to change -- what's needed is a dream we all want to be a part of.
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Michael Shellenberger and Ted Nordhaus have written a book -- Break Through: From the Death of Environmentalism to the Politics of Possibility (Houghton Mifflin, 2007) -- that challenges the way we are used to thinking about solving social problems. The conventional wisdom writ large, especially for progressives, is that when things are bad, people need to be scared into changing their habits, whether it is to protect the 50 million people who lack health care, or the behaviors that contribute to potential climate catastrophe. Most of us assume that we have severely limited resources, that growth is bad, and we need ever-increasing amounts of regulation to save the future.

In their book, Nordhaus and Shellenberger suggest something very different. They argue strongly that scaring people is no way to make change. For example the 250 million people with health care will not be inclined to fight for those who don't have it, unless they feel confident in the future, and that the health system will improve for them too, since people don't want what exists to get worse in the process of expanding care.

The same for climate catastrophe: As Nordhaus and Shellenberger put it: "Cautionary tales and narratives of eco-apocalypse tend to provoke fatalism, conservatism, and survivalism among voters -- not the rational embrace of environmental policies. This research is consistent with extensive social-science research that strongly correlates fear, rising insecurity, and pessimism about the future with resistance to change."

Furthermore, they strongly argue that an enormous investment in green technology, including huge commitments from the military, as in supporting the Internet and computer chips development, combined with unleashing the best of the American "can do" inventive energy is a much more viable approach than the technological fixes, caps on pollution, carbon trading, and all the strategies that put constraints on human activity. This is controversial approach to say the least, and one that flies in the face of much of what progressives have come to believe about growth and regulation.

Needless to say, in a world with enormous problems and challenges facing all of us, and the radically different worldviews that dramatically divide this country, considering new, provocative ideas can cause anxiety. Many simply want to get the bad guys out of power. But if and when that happens, we still need to figure out how to fix the massive array of problems ahead of us. That is Shellenberger and Nordhaus's point. The old ideas are not going to work. We need a new vision, and the authors are offering one, and stirring the pot in the process.

In the end, many readers may not agree with the Break Through thesis, but the ideas the authors present deserve discussion and debate. Progressives are stuck with a lot of conventional wisdom that has not led us to change and the success we need.

What follows is an essay from Nordhaus and Shellenberger, based upon ideas in their book, followed by commentary from writers with strong opinions on the book. A second article on AlterNet today is a review by environmental writer and leader Bill McKibben of Break Through and Bjorn Lomborg's Cool It: The Skeptical Environmentalists Guide to Global Warming.

-- Don Hazen, Executive Editor

***

American Power: The Case for an Energetic New Progressive Politics

By Ted Nordhaus and Michael Shellenberger

Most progressives today are optimistic that, in 2008, Democrats will regain the White House and solidify their majority in Congress, largely on the basis of the country's anti-war sentiment alone. But down this path lies danger, for if Democrats fail to offer a vision for the future that is as large and positive as the war in Iraq is negative, we may take back the White House and Congress and fail to take back America.

A new politics should inspire Americans to grapple with certain existential questions: What kind of a country do we want? How can we achieve it? These questions implicitly contain a question about investment: how shall we invest our wealth and our labor?

With Iraq and the "war on terror," the conservative movement has defined American power as unilateral military force. Progressives have not yet offered a counter-argument and story about American greatness that is capable of challenging the (neo)conservative one.

A new story of American Power begins by acknowledging what our country is great at: imagining, experimenting, and inventing the future. First we dream -- and then we invent.

The time is ripe for progressives and environmentalists of all stripes to come together around American Power agenda for a major investment into clean energy. Not only is a large public investment crucial to bringing down the price of clean energy, an investment-centered agenda will serve the purpose of unifying Americans under a vision for energy independence and economic revitalization, one that will appeal to California and New England progressives and environmentalists and Midwestern Reagan Democrats alike.


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See more stories tagged with: break through, ted nordhaus, michael shellenberger

Ted Nordhaus and Michael Shellenberger are authors of Break Through: From the Death of Environmentalism to the Politics of Possibility (Houghton Mifflin, 2007), and founders of American Environics and the Breakthrough Institute.

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View:
If scaring people into going to war works so well...
Posted by: Aussie Kim on Oct 8, 2007 12:26 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...why shouldn't scaring people into peaceful, constructive goals work as well? ;)

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

energy alternatives
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Oct 8, 2007 2:19 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"That's because there simply do not yet exist the low cost, low
carbon technologies that could be quickly brought to scale to
replace carbon intensive energy sources."
IS A LIE. We have nuclear power. Nuclear power is safe, clean
and cost competitive. Nuclear would be cheaper if the safety
level were LOWERED to the same safety level as coal.


"But the price of carbon would have to be set at exorbitant levels
for today's clean energy alternatives to become cost-competitive
with coal."
Is true if "clean energy alternatives" included only wind and solar.
I have been telling you this for months now. It is false if you
include nuclear.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Nuclear is bombs/wars Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» RE: energy alternatives Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle
» RE: energy alternatives Posted by: vasumurti
» Interesting... Posted by: mjabele
» RE: energy alternatives Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» RE: energy alternatives Posted by: kiatoa
» NUCLEAR INDUSTRY LIES Posted by: johndoraemi
» RE: NUCLEAR INDUSTRY LIES Posted by: vasumurti
» Vent radioactive gas? Y/N Posted by: eddie torres
Trapping CO2
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Oct 8, 2007 2:27 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Al Gore's Live Earth Pledge has a fatal flaw: "the capacity to safely trap
and store the CO2." There is no safe way to confine trillions of tons of
CO2 at high pressure for ever. For Ever is a lot longer than the 100000
years that people want nuclear "waste" to be stored. The CO2 WILL
leak out and suffocate millions of people. CO2 is denser than air and
displaces air at ground level. CO2 has caused suffocation in Africa. See:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1155057.stm

"Cameroon's 'killer lake' degassed"
"More than 1,700 people died after deadly gases spewed from Lake Nyos
15 years ago. "
"In August 1986, the lake released a cloud of carbon dioxide which
hugged the ground and flowed down surrounding valleys to suffocate
thousands of local villagers and animals.

The rare phenomenon also occurred at Lake Monoun in the same volcanic
zone two years earlier killing 34 people. "

The CO2 storage facilities proposed by Al Gore, besides being prone to
leak, will be a target for terrorists. A terrorist has only to cause a leak to
kill more people than a nuclear bomb would. Leaks are very easy to
cause in high pressure containers. CO2 storage is a silent disaster waiting
to happen.

The pledge Should read: "I will learn enough about nuclear physics so that
I will no longer be paranoid about nuclear power. I will advocate the
replacement of coal fired power plants with the newest nuclear power
plant designs."

I [Asteroid Miner] have no financial or other interest in nuclear power
and no connection with the nuclear power industry.

It is HOT CO2 that goes up smolestacks. Being hot it is less dense so it
goes up and disperses. Stored CO2 is cool. A gas gets colder as it leaks
out from high pressure to low pressure. That is the secret of air
conditioning. CO2 at the same temperature as air is denser than air
because CO2 is a heavier molecule than N2 or O2. The cold CO2 will
stick to the ground and suffocate people and other animals. No other gas
is required to explain the deaths in Cameroon. Here in the US, more CO2
will leak out into areas with more people, so the death toll could be in the
millions.

The Live Earth Pledge reads:

I PLEDGE:

-To demand that my country join an international treaty within the next 2
years that cuts global warming pollution by 90% in developed countries
and by more than half worldwide in time for the next generation to inherit
a healthy earth;

-To take personal action to help solve the climate crisis by reducing my
own CO2 pollution as much as I can and offsetting the rest to become
“carbon neutral;”

-To fight for a moratorium on the construction of any new generating
facility that burns coal without the capacity to safely trap and store the
CO2;

-To work for a dramatic increase in the energy efficiency of my home,
workplace, school, place of worship, and means of transportation;

-To fight for laws and policies that expand the use of renewable energy
sources and reduce dependence on oil and coal;

-To plant new trees and to join with others in preserving and protecting
forests; and,

-To buy from businesses and support leaders who share my commitment
to solving the climate crisis and building a sustainable, just, and prosperous
world for the 21st century.

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» Not so fast there... Posted by: LeaderofMen
Today's progressives are ahistorical, and that's why they fail
Posted by: Frankstank on Oct 8, 2007 2:42 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Major social and political change in the past only ever happened as a consequence of mass movements. These days, most progressives choose to by-pass this approach and go for media celebrity activism (like Naomi Klein, Michael Moore) or NGOs and the third sector (great for getting jobs).

This then leads to the tendency to use scare tactics to get the public's attention (alarmist titles like 'Shock Doctrine').

If you want real and profound and long-lasting good change, then you need to bring as many people on board as possible, and it must be presented in a positive way, with a positive dream (think Mandela, Ghandi, the Chartists, the Civil Rights movement, etc.).

Mandela could have called for the killing of all whites and incited a revolution. But instead he spoke to universal human goals and aspirations. Over time this broke down walls and brought change.

Let's take what's wrong with democracy these days. It would make more sense to acknowledge the very real threats out there (rather than deny al Qaeda's existance) and then speak to positive new visions. By just banging on about how the threats are figments of the president's imagination, this is not brining peope together.

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» Regarding Burma. . . Posted by: heid
The wolf is falling! The sky is biting!
Posted by: hagwind on Oct 8, 2007 6:22 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's no question in my mind that fear plays a role in catalyzing change, but anyone who advocates it as a tool better keep in mind that its effects are unpredictable. In the U.S., racist attitudes and institutions thrived on fear for a long time, but when the segregationists resorted to illegal obstructionism and violence to perpetuate the fear, the strategy blew up in their faces. The riots in U.S. cities in the mid to late 1960s were a wake-up call to many white USians -- but although some woke up to a realization that "something had to be done" about urban poverty and racism, others woke up to a conviction that poor black people were out of control and something had to be done about "law and order." On a smaller level something similar happened in the antiwar movement. From incidents like the scene in Chicago at the 1968 Democratic National Convention and the shootings at Kent State and Jackson State, some of us woke up to a greater understanding of official lawlessness and others of us woke up and cheered that the lawless "hippies" had been put in their places. The polarization is still with us, in part because our "leaders" keep taking the easy way out: pandering to and exacerbating the same old fears and resentments -- without actually addressing them, mainly because the fears and resentments are such handy hooks to manipulate people with.

I also see a significant difference between the fears that are aroused by actual events, and the fears that some people are promoting in order to manipulate other people into doing something. The "war on terror" started as the former (9/11) and over the years has turned into the latter. Now most people roll their eyes as they take off their shoes in the airport boarding line, and don't even hear the continuous warnings against leaving your luggage unattended in the bus station. The climate change people don't even have a 9/11 to riff off of. Growing holes in the ozone layer and melting polar ice caps don't have quite the same visual impact, and whenever I hear someone going on about Hurricanes! Tsunamis! Weird weather! I yawn because it's almost always some suggestible city person whose memory of the weather goes back about three years max.

What really disturbs me about the environmentalists' scare tactics is that they're so similar to the apocalyptic thinking of the biblical literalists. When you come right down to it, "Repent, sinners, or you'll be damned for eternity" isn't all that different from "Clean up your act, earthlings, or you'll destroy the planet." For several decades now, advertisers, various experts, and not a few political movements have been trying to scare us into doing this and not doing that: "Do as we say or you'll get cancer! you'll get fat! you'll have BO! the blacks will take over your neighborhood and the gays will abduct your children!" I think most of us are more than a little numbed out at this point, and it's a good thing too, because otherwise it would be hard to keep putting one foot in front of the other. IOW, I think the authors of this article are on the right track, and I look forward to reading the book.

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» Crapola Posted by: ReallyBearish
» Again, rubbish Posted by: ReallyBearish
» Ideally Posted by: pdxstudent
For 70 years, INDUSTRIAL HEMP has been banned and it's not marijuana unless you want to believe the
Posted by: maxpayne on Oct 8, 2007 6:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
pro-NAZI propagandists who invented the "Reefer Madness" lies the same way the neocons invented the "Iraq connected to 9/11" BULLSHIT. Until the progressives understand the truth that alternative renewables are completely capable of getting America off foreign oil and off the dangers of coal and nuclear, it's lose-lose.

P.S.: This article might as well been written by the folks in Big Oil, Big Coal, Big Chemical, and/or Big Nuclear.

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Progressive neo-spin
Posted by: peacelf on Oct 8, 2007 6:41 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mooney is right. The spin is still spin and the environmental and energy problems are still existential problems. However, instead of talkng honestly about these problems, Nordhaus and Shellenberger offer us more than just a new way to spin environmentalism; they offer a carrot ($billions in govenrment subsidies) for politicians to dangle over the rich and powerful to get them to bite.

I don't know which is worse, pacifying the rich nihilists who must make a profit at every turn, or continuing down this path of manipulating the masses with "positive" spin to gain public support. This is so problematic, I don't know where to begin, but I'll try...

1) Should it now be the progressives' mission to perpetuate the spin of fundamentalist free market cynicism and nihilism? This is exactly the kind of thinking that got us where we are today. Progressives shouldn't play the same game. Create a dialogue and you'll change the dialogue!

2) Quit treating people like they're stupid and need coddling. Tell them the truth. People are not stupid, they're ignorant. The corporate media and american education keep them so.

A grassroots campaign is an honest approach to change. Join the Green Party! The Green Party is grassroots. They are also the fastest growing third party nationally, with more elected local officials each election. Make it a local issue and eventually it will become a state, then a national issue.

3) U.S. corporations need tough love. They can't help themselves that they need to make a profit off of everything they do. Regulation! Regulation! Regulations! Give them some real rules to live by, just like the rest of us do. Do not give the rich owners incentives to do what they have a responsibility to do in the first place. If you're going to lobby for anything, lobby for regulations.

4) And, finally, the american educational system is under seige by right wing interests (both Republicans and Democrats). The purpose of education shifted during the Reagan administration from a more progressive education that would make thoughtful citizens to education as economics. Traditional education is a production line to turn humans into capital. The argument that 'there are certain things kids need to know' cloaks a nefarious program of dumbing down public education by narrowing the curriculum and controlling teachers' freedoms to present controversial subject matter in the classroom. No child left behind means no child is to be left un-domesticated and docile, obedient to authority, ignorant and afraid.

Progressives need to focus on the importance of education for critical citizenship. A critical citizenry will not be afraid to hear the truth, nor will they be afraid to act. Just as many progressives and liberals are afraid to vote their consciences.

Philosophically, morally and ethically speaking, if we do not do what we know is right in all our actions, then we are part of the problem, not the solution.

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» RE: Progressive neo-spin Posted by: particle
FUSION - THE ULTIMATE ANSWER
Posted by: Glennk1949 on Oct 8, 2007 6:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only real way to Energy Independence is Nuclear Fusion here on earth not in the sky ( the sun.) Solar power will never be anything more then a marginal player in the energy equation for many reasons. FUSION on the other hand coupled with a vastly improved and high tech. transmission and storage systems ( revolutionary capacitor systems now being developed) are the only way forward that makes any sense. FUSION creates no pollution beyond water and hydrogen gas. The Hydrogen gas is also a pollution free form of energy. Fusion's promise of almost unlimited pollution free energy has been and continues to be the holy grail of modern energy science and we should be pouring in the billions in an APOLLO like project to finish the 50 yrs. of research and investment we've already put into the quest for this source of energy. Without FUSION all the other paths put together won't get us to where we need to be by the 22nd century. With Fusion by then we could be slowly turning the tide ( literally) and in a few more centuries we could be using this energy source to do much much more. We could be on our way to the stars for one thing. FUSION is and has always been the right direction for our civilization.
The authors are right that a negative fear based approach to solving Global warming and all the other energy based issues that presently plague humanity will never work. In a few more decades we will have 9 billion people on earth and solar power and windmills as attractive as they might appear in the short term will never do the job of providing the levels of core energy production we need. The answer sits right in front of us. The world's oceans hold the fuel we need water, but we have to LEARN how to burn it efficiently and that will require a huge investment to finish the job.
Part of the equation is almost in place that will take us to the next level in FUSION research. As our computer scientists create the next generation of Quantum computers these vastly superior machines hold the key to doing the incredibly complicated and powerful computation necessary to actually produce a commercially viable FUSION power plant. These advances if financed coupled with revolutionary advances in materials ( super conductors) as an example and other materials will eventually create the really high tech. devices and plants we'll need to power this entirely "new" society. We can do it just as we leaped from whale oil and horse power to coal/oil and steam and then from these energy sources and devices to gas, oil and electric power in less then 75 yrs. in the 19th and 20th centuries.
We are now on the threshold of a dream and all we need is the GUTS and the political will to get there. Almost all of the necessary science already exists and most of the devices also exist. Whats needed is another GRAND integration of these new technologies. It can be done and it has to be done for us to move on from this dangerous place we now inhabit. The new-cons think WAR is the answer but as always WAR only begets more WAR nothing more. They're vision is like ORWELLS in 1984 of a foot stomping endlessly on a human face. It is a vision of oppression and violence, its created from their arrogance and hatred of anyone they see as inferior to themselves. Its a Roman/ Fascist vision of the future and has to be rejected. Our vision has to be one of abundance shared. Roosevelt in funding the "HOOVER" ( ironically named) dam and the Tenn. valley authority in 1933 saw a positive future for America one with expanding opportunities. He had it right and thats why Americans rallied behind his vision. FUSION is the next step in that Progressive/Modern vision of the future. With clean and affordable electric energy we can create a powerful new society that's ENERGY sector isn't carbon burning based. The KEY though is political will and that has to start from the top. We need a new leadership that like JFK shoots for the MOON in our life time.

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» RE: FUSION - THE ULTIMATE ANSWER Posted by: Glennk1949
Reality is not a tactic
Posted by: alby on Oct 8, 2007 7:03 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm sure harnessing the power of American ingenuity can be more inspiring than facing the carnage of unchecked capitalism. The problem with engaging in a race-for-space (green version!)-type solution to environmental issues is that it fundamentally ignores how we got into this mess to begin with; e.g., greed and overconsumption.

If you are an individual who believes humans, and especially Americans, can never change their habits (despite evidence to the contrary to be found in the recent past), then approaching the issue with more money and more technology--and more capitalism--may seem ideal. But treating the symptoms rather than the pathology, no matter how optimistically, is like shoveling ever more potent drugs into a patient who just needs a more modest diet.

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» RE: eality is not a tactic Posted by: Sum Won
Misplaced Pathogenesis
Posted by: pdxstudent on Oct 8, 2007 7:44 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Cautionary tales and narratives of eco-apocalypse tend to provoke fatalism, conservatism, and survivalism among voters -- not the rational embrace of environmental policies. This research is consistent with extensive social-science research that strongly correlates fear, rising insecurity, and pessimism about the future with resistance to change."

I agree with this, but it is set up to give an impression with which I don't agree. "Cautionary tales and narratives of eco-apocalypse" don't just emerge out of the void and then lead to "fatalism, conservativism and survivalism." The very resistance to change these stories are said to provoke is their very origin, not merely their effect.

It is not simply that the environmentalists have been idiots about the movement to preserve and protect the planet, making mere strategic mistakes. These stories illustrate an unconscious desire already at odds with these stated goals and purposes. The call to alternatives is a good step in the right direction, but "[r]ecognizing that voters care more about the cost of energy than global warming," such steps cannot pander to this already conservative choice, lest environmentalists want to look back and realize how reactionary they still were. Change will be scary and otherwise uncomfortable, otherwise we wouldn't ever get stuck in our ways in the first place, unless what is valued more in ostensible plans for change is in fact not changing at all.

Is there a difference between "doom-n-gloom" and the kind of hopefulness the authors offer? Of course, but don't take it at face-value, especially if they must re-assure us that everything is going to be peachy-keen---and we might even extract more wealth from nature than ever before.

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One problem that nobody looks at
Posted by: ReallyBearish on Oct 8, 2007 7:53 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is an area that we could do something about, but nobody focuses on-- maybe it isn't sexy enough. We and the Chinese have old coal mines that are burning underground, dumping incredible amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere. The amount of CO2 from burning coal mines might be as much as produced by cars in the USA.

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Dale Carnegie Won't Solve Global Warming, Only The Grim Reaper Will Work
Posted by: sofla100 on Oct 8, 2007 9:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem with these guys is the over reliance on some kind of technological magical solutions. It does not help either that they have integrated this approach with a philosophy of talk positive new age gibberish. But, how will this will solve the problem? The fact is, it is going to take armageddon to bring about change. When the seas rise a couple feet and a few of America's coastal cities go under water, when the hurricanes start coming every year, and when mass famines across the globe trigger WWIII, then the people will want to change. In the meantime, all this fancy talk about some kind of vision is just gibberish. It's not enough to be hip and cool with some lingo in trying to talk up your supposed mastery of global warming and climate change. Nor are magic solar panels on every house and so-called fusion reactors (which don't even exist yet) going to make any difference. It's time to get real.

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fear for sale or rent
Posted by: solrev on Oct 8, 2007 10:05 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Fear is like punishment, a great extinguisher of behavior but not a very good creator of behavior. So, I agree with the article change on a grand scale requires a positive vision to motivate the people. Unfortunately recognizing the need for a vision and having one is two different things and the article puts forth no real vision. In the comments there is the list of possibilities, nuclear (fission and fusion), solar, wind, geo, etc. What remains lacking is the vision. If one had a vision of A, which would incidentally solve the problem of B, one should be able to gain much broader support for A. This visionary thinking seems to be totally absent in American thinking. Another good example of the lack of vision is the universal healthcare argument. The purpose of universal healthcare is not to provide healthcare for a sick child that is just a consequence of the larger vision. There is a vision out there that the consequence of following would be, pollution free energy production. The whole is no longer greater than the sum of the parts in America. We need to become visionaries in place of problem solvers. One vision is worth a thousand solutions. Yet we remain divided and conquered.

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» RE: fear for sale or rent Posted by: hagwind
» RE: you mean like this Posted by: solrev
» Works for me! ;-) Posted by: hagwind
Nationalize the American Oil Industry..and all energy..!
Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Oct 8, 2007 10:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Solution is simple first Nationalize the American Oil Industry..and all energy..!

This would allow us to cut costs by 30-40% across the board and still have $50 to 60 Billion per year, for alternative energy source development, exploration and new engine design all sorts of technology leaps and Create an Economic boom as well that would effect and benefit every American..

That is the solution until then we're pissing in the wind..!

Why won't any of our so called candidates propose this..you can make up your own mind..I have already

This is the solution and might very well avoid huge useless wasteful immoral wars as well..

There is a lot to this and I have run it by some mighty smart people the potential is so great they were mind boggled when I made them realize just how great this would be for America..

Remember the Oil Industry is not in the business of putting itself out of business..!

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TrueWorldHistory.info
Posted by: satxfreedom on Oct 8, 2007 11:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
www.TrueWorldHistory.info

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TrueWorldHistory.info
Posted by: satxfreedom on Oct 8, 2007 11:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
www.TrueWorldHistory.info

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dealing with hacks
Posted by: particle on Oct 8, 2007 11:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Collier tries to equate Break Through with the highly discredited work of Lomborg."

Almost thought McKibben was doing the same thing in today's other article. He's not, but it's a little muddy.

Anyway, sort of a dilemma. You try to take a moderate approach and corporate hacks immediately put a polarizing spin on it. I can't help thinking that you have to be aggressively clear about staking out your position and pre-empt this kind of nonsense up front.

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Sick of these FEAR MONGERS
Posted by: Nick on Oct 8, 2007 11:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
on the right and
on the left

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fatal flaw
Posted by: Constitutionalist75 on Oct 8, 2007 11:58 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This plan assumes a growing population and a growing economy. It won't work.

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Time out.
Posted by: Coleman on Oct 8, 2007 12:07 PM   
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Now, I understand that this is the 21st Century, and the economy and the technologies deployed there are immensely complicated, so complicated that a dumb citizen like myself does not deserve to comment on them, and so, in exchange for my fat consumer lifestyle, I must surrender my right to true politics in favor of expert corporate-technocratic administration of the world. I mean, History is over, right? The market will sort everything out, let's just pump a few more dollars in to get the market interested in green tech...come on...just a few more hundred billion taxpayer dollars...

Conservation and reducing consumption are the most cost-effective and worthy means to reducing CO2 emissions. It is, obviously, a question of energy usage.

The FDR Public Works analogy being used by the article is dishonest. Back then people were being employed to dig ditches and build roads. Today "government investment in green technology" will mean billions for corporate R&D that they'll turn around and SELL back to us. I mean, they have to make a profit, right?

Here's an idea for true public works. Let's have a gov't agency that employs people to install and maintain green roofs at subsidized rates for urban businesses and residences capable of sustaining them. Utilizing the amazing technology of grass, ferns, gravel, plastic tarps and the like, energy consumption for a building can be lowered by as much as 20%. All those contractors currently building useless McMansions can be put to better work. Maybe even throw a solar panel on top.

The real way forward is low-tech, unsexy conservation solutions combined with education about harmful overconsumption.

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A people problem
Posted by: TennMom on Oct 8, 2007 12:10 PM   
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Using fear to manipulate people into believing something is not unique to progressives. The president hasn't a progressive bone in his body, but he has used scare tactics to his every advantage. I see one glaring difference between what some might consider scare tactics from environmentalists and the fear factor used so adeptly by Bush and the far Right. The "alarm" being sounded about global warming is based on facts. The president's fear-mongering is based entirely on lies and propaganda.

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» RE: A people problem Posted by: hagwind
Why isn't the Sahara covered in solar panels?
Posted by: fanny666 on Oct 8, 2007 12:27 PM   
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It would be so great to see a new president set bold "environmental" policy goals like JFK did with putting a person on the moon.

Massive public effort into making efficient solar panels and windmills. Scientific research dollars going to large-scale water desalinization and purification. GIVING the fruits of these endeavors to poor nations.

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Everything is a Crisis
Posted by: Gravitas on Oct 8, 2007 12:30 PM   
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The problem is, "crises" have been used as media marketing tools. Everything is elevated into a crisis when they want to sell products: the obesity crisis, the cholestoral crisis, the restless leg syndrome crisis. So when a legitimate crisis like global warming does come along, people are numb to the significance of what a REAL crisis is. Not to mention suspicion of authority. Like Alex Jones, who makes some good points, but is also leading people the wrong way with his denial of climate change.

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This shit was obvious in the 1970s
Posted by: johndoraemi on Oct 8, 2007 12:34 PM   
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Carter puts solar panels on the White House. Reagan/Bush tears them off.

Lockheed develops an L1011 the flies on hydrogen.

It all goes away, and the oiligarchs set out to destroy science and progress that competes with their economic stranglehold.

Alternative energy has been set back by 30 years because of the outright criminal corruption in Washington DC. We could have a completely different infrastructure by now, and the costs could be down below that of oil and gas.

Soon it will be, as a result of oil depletion and skyrocketing fuel costs, and we will have no choice. Stupid is as stupid does.

Crimes of the State Blog

PS.

Oh yeah, anyone remember Rumsfeld shutting down the US wind power industry because windmills could possibly, maybe, somewhere, sometime interfere with "military radar?"

I bet they're still laughing themselves silly over that one...

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Peak Oil will change everything ...
Posted by: mmckinl on Oct 8, 2007 12:58 PM   
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"For one thing, world oil production will peak during this decade. An important new book, ''Hubbert's Peak,'' by the eminent oil geologist Kenneth Deffeyes, a professor at Princeton University, explains that world oil output will peak in this decade. It is following the same trajectory as US oil projection,"

"There are no short-term substitutes for gas and oil. When demand exceeds available supply, as we learned during the two oil crises of the 1970s, prices spike - with devastating effects on the rest of the economy. That crisis was contrived by the oil cartel. The coming oil crisis will be real."

Robert Kuttner October 2001

American Prospect key word search : Hubbert
.

Current projections for oil consumption for 2008 are 88million bpd .

Current projections for supply are 85milllion bpd.

This could change due to recession or war , but ultimately there will be peak oil .

.

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With a few remarkable exceptions,
Posted by: Constitutionalist75 on Oct 8, 2007 1:06 PM   
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the more people change, the more they stay the same, the pendulum of history swinging back and forth enexorably. So, those remarkable exceptions might enjoy life better by getting together and buying a small parcel of fertile land to grow their own food, make their own clothing and take good care of each other. There are plenty of examples of people doing this, like various communes and the Amish.

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The tipping point and countering pessimism
Posted by: GrassRoutes on Oct 8, 2007 1:30 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The U.S. government will change their environmental policies when they can't contain the unrest of organized citizens any longer. President Roosevelt's New Deal was precipitated by the rising rebellion of the common people.

Sex-drugs-and-rock-n-roll has become the moniker for the 1960's because we have forgotten our history of rebellion. The 1960's saw people in the streets. People organized for civil rights, the rights of women, and gay and lesbian people. There was an anti-nuclear movement and rebellion against the war in Vietnam.

If environmental groups banging on government's doors were going to cause government to listen to what people want, it would have happened by now.

I think we are shutdown with the scary facts about global warming. I also believe that we shutdown because we feel it is a hopeless endeavor; that government will not change for us and that government only supports the corporate agenda.

I think there are others who believe that the next election will give us a Democrat for president, and that will make things better. In her book Power and Powerlessness, Susan Rosenthal calls the Democratic Party "a graveyard for social movements." (powerandpowerlessness.com, sec2:196 of the online book)

She offers hope that we can bring about social change ourselves and counter the pessimism, while "social and political activists continue to embrace it [shock-them-into-change strategy] as their strategy of choice."

Whether or not the progressives continue with their strategy, in the end it will be the common people who will make the changes happen.

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Both: sober view of realities, and vision of future possibilities needed!
Posted by: rjgwood on Oct 8, 2007 1:40 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a social and labor organizer, I can tell you from experience that if you have a campaign for change that only focuses on the negative issues that the workers face without talking about what they WANT to see, it won't work. In a movement for change, it is important that a vision is created about what the future could look like if people banded together and created it. It is also important to articulate the challenges that people face, to motivate the movement and give it a sense of urgency. I definitely believe, however, that current American progressives do not spend enough time talking about what they would like to see society look like.

Many times when you hear conservatives denigrate "pluralistic America" they are actually referring to very tenets of society that Americans say they embrace most: free speech, accepting diversity, demanding equality, affordable housing and education and health care for all, regardless of race, creed, national origin, etc. If you look at polls of Americans, most cherish these ideals. Unfortunately, conservatives have gained so much traction by blaming illegal aliens, women and minorities for the falling status of the white middle and working classes, when in reality it is the policies of their own elected conservatives that are dismantling their economic well-being.

My father is a classic example of this. A former factory worker, my father used to vote for Democrats and think about working folks issues. When Ronald Reagan campaigned for office, he stole my father with his rhetoric about America's greatness being stymied by the likes of Jimmy Carter and the disastrous U.S. Embassy fiasco in Iran. Reagan also stole the rest of my family with the anti-choice rhetoric and movement. He further led my family down the road to fascism by placing the blame for crumbling cities not where it should rest: corporate America leaving to rape the labor markets of the third world. Instead, inner city residents (mostly the poor and people of color) were paraded by these politicians as the reason my families standards of living and communities were going down hill. Tough on crime policies were enacted. Public education began being dismantled. Republicans took the house and then stole the presidency.

All of this was accomplished by waving the flag and invoking an unspoken vision of a white, pre-civil rights movement utopia that conservatives like to harken up: the greatest generation, the post WWII period in which cities were clean and in good repair, people went to church, crime was low, education was high and people were neighborly (w/ their own kind, at least). These same conservatives don't like to talk about the major labor actions that lead to this rise in the tide that lifted all boats.

This gilded image of America past allowed Ronald Reagan and those that came after to conjure up a desire in folks like my dad for this vision of life: if you work hard you are rewarded for it. We wanted to be the nation of entrepreneurs that Newt Gingrich used to talk about. Everyone can pull themselves up by their own bootstraps and make a go of it in America. The Republicans painted up this whorish vision and the American public paid for it. We’ve allowed them to parcel out huge swaths of our government to their political cronies. We’ve allowed the International Monetary Fund, NAFTA, CAFTA and the World Bank to wreak economic terrorism on developing worlds in our name. We’ve sunk over a trillion dollars into weapon systems and wars that are bankrupting our country. We have handed over huge chunks of our civil rights.

The fascists have gotten their machine and their message right: scare tactics and a vision. Progressives are working hard to get the important message out about the problems, we just need to grow a better vision along side this and fast.

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» RE: What would your Utopia look like? Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
Overpopulation not a problem?
Posted by: leemiller38 on Oct 8, 2007 2:11 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No where in the article and rarely in the comments to it, was mentioned the driver of this environmental mess--overpopulation--you know like the 6.4 billion people now busy gobbling up resources. In 1900, there were only 1.5 billion living on less of the planet's resources. There are now way too many people! We are about 3X over sustainalble carrying capacity. This is the driver and peak oil, global warming, species extinctions, soil erosion, water shortages, etc., are the symptoms of the problem. Are progressives so stupid as not to recognize this or just too ideological about peace and justice, or just living by that famous Egyptian river?
The only way out of this mess with minor blood baths, is to: A) have negative population growth for several centuries and the most rational way is through universal birth-control availability and motivating people to have only one child for a couple of centuries: or B) the other way is an increase in the death rate by apocalyptic wars, famines and pestilence as our energy and resource base plumets. If you can't make "A" happen then you had better get prepared for "B", a lot of suffering on our way out as the dominant life form. Is that fearful? Damn, I hope so if it motivates people to learn what the problem is and work for a rational resolution.
Technology, such a nuclear power and biofuels, is part of the problem, not the solution.

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» Overpopulation is the key problem. Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: Overpopulation not a problem? Posted by: MobileSucks
Les Cogar
Posted by: Les cogar on Oct 8, 2007 2:46 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The scare tactic used is"We have no choice but to change" and"The old ways do not work". The solution to this countries problem is that,when a solution is arived at we never continue the solution long enough for it to work before someone says it will not work and we need reform/change.Take for example "Give a hoot,Don't Polloote" and all the other methods of old that we knew would help to stop global pollution of the environment.Change does not have to be complete,change must come with time to digest and not in the emergancy need that many who have monitary gain in mind may alarm. Change not completely understood causes many unneeded rifts in scociaty at a cost to all.Simply allow the first changes to evolve and new changes may not be needed.
"Vindiciamus"

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The Problems With This Approach Are:
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman on Oct 8, 2007 2:55 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Explaining what is likely to happen if people insist on maintaining or increasing their overconsumption and overpopulation is not fear mongering, it's telling it like it is. The rich who profit from ecological destruction and those who don't want to give up their ecologically destructive lifestyles don't want to hear or read the truth about the harms that they're causing, so we get garbage like this book. Communicating a positive vision is certainly to be supported and might even be essential, but people should also be told the hard truth about the destruction that their actions are causing.

2. ALL technology is ecologically harmful, though some like coal is more harmful than others like solar. It is a basic, immutable law of physics that every action has an equal and opposite reaction (it's also a recognized spiritual law in some cultures), so we can't, for example, get energy from nothing or without causing some ecological harm, regardless of what technology is used. Therefore, the only way to fix the ecological problems that humans are causing is to reduce our consumption and our population. There will be no magical technological fixes (though with less harmful technologies things don't have to be as bad as they currently are even with the same consumption and population). The positive vision that the authors advocate communicating should be one of a much smaller human population living much simpler lifestyles in harmony with nature.

Authors Nordhaus and Shellenberger are, at best, conservative environmentalists who do not want to give up their American lifestyles, so they dream of and advocate for magical technologies that will supposedly save us and the planet. Guess what guys, you're dreaming!

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» RE: The Problems With This Approach Are: Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» Harmony-Shmarmony Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Harmony-Shmarmony Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
» Problem is, it aint true Posted by: MobileSucks
» RE: Problem is, it aint true Posted by: Constitutionalist75
You've been framed
Posted by: particle on Oct 8, 2007 3:52 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Apocalyptic gloom and doom." You know, I hear some of that, and yeah, some reporters get it wrong. But mostly I hear that accusation being made as an attempt to shut down conversation. And while it's true that politicians have to have that "can do" spirit, I'm not sure we want to have everyone accidentally squeezing concern out of the picture.

Fear. Maybe not. OK to be angry about the war? How about anger about global warming?

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Douglas Rushkoff's rational words
Posted by: MobileSucks on Oct 8, 2007 4:41 PM   
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(In any case I was just reminded of this. Thought I'd share it. Enjoy. --From Rushkoff's post "No Surrender" back in '04 election aftermath.)

"So progressives are finally bringing themselves to confront the unthinkable: It's time to let tactics trump truth, and create a myth for the Left that's more fanciful, triumphant, and sustaining than the other guys'.

It's going to be a tough sell, in more ways than one.

The biggest problem is that this strategy cuts against the grain of every value on which the progressive agenda was based - from the Enlightenment-era conviction that our higher faculties should command our collective destiny, right on through the Marxist emphasis on education and rationality. Progressives fancy themselves as intellectuals for whom science trumps religious doctrine. They cling to the separation of church and state not just because they think everyone should be able to believe what they want to, but because they don't want religion clouding reason in public affairs.

But now, despite the Lef'ts own reluctance to doll up the truth, progressives are entertaining the notion of developing a mythical context for their own policy agenda. Even Plato's Republic was to be sustained by a foundation myth in which the elements making up a person's blood decided which class into which they would be born. If a well-conceived myth was good enough for the high-minded Greeks, isn't it good enough for today's desperate Democrats? It would certainly play better on Crossfire.

Still, I've been asking myself: Can't the Left just eat it's principles for as long as necessary to get in office, and then go back to the business of applying reasoned and substantive policies? Wouldn't it be better to develop a more benevolent religious narrative than th triumphalism currently passing for foreign policy? Especially if it's a myth that has some sort of half-life, and dissolves itself once people feel safe enough to let go of it?

Alas, no. (As I tried to show in my last book, Judaism was invented to serve that purpose - yet can be easily turned to do the opposite.) Progressives can't pursue their values by abandoning them. Instead, they must come to acknowledge and bolster the faith they do have - in reason, observed truth, and, most of all, in the innate ability of all human beings to make rational decisions. Sure, they can mine the parables of Jesus for their basis in social justice and fair play - and the inspiration and motivation such stories can provide. But they must not surrender the very foundation of an Enlightenment-inspired society to the expediencies of pandering to fear and superstition.

Progressives simply can't have it both ways. To peddle their agenda in a faux-religious package, without any real faith in its underlying premise, would be to install a regime even more cynically devoid of spirit than the one they mean to replace." --from "No Surrender" post by
Douglas Rushkoff 11/18/2004

for entire Rushkoff post "No Surrender" --
http://www.rushkoff.com/2004/11/no-surrender.php

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no time to read but,
Posted by: Missing Piece on Oct 8, 2007 4:59 PM   
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always time to comment. Matt Savinar said it best, "Optamism is whats keeping us from acting". we have five years left at most and the market melts down. Thats why there taking our rights away now and putting us into a resource war, before its obvious to even the fox veiwer why they're doing it. I have no idea what to do, but its going to be ugly, they will have us fighting each other just like in Iraq before they give up power. In other words they know the people are going to demand a socialist state when they can't even feed or house themselves.

Good Luck

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I have a dream... and its backed up with research and facts
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com on Oct 8, 2007 5:38 PM   
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I think the main premise of the article if to use our creativity and come up with actual ideas on how to make things better.

Its all well and good to say, "Blah blah blah will work." but without backing it up with solid evidence, facts, and research like every post in the comment section, we will have no real idea which ideas will work and which won't.

All the sky is falling fear mongering does not benefit change.

Read the book, "The Authoritarians", its basic human psychology, when we are in fear of Revelation and the end days, we look to the ESTABLISHED leaders and authority figures for what to do.

Since "progressives" are often unknowns seeking to get positive changes made we need to SHOW people the benefits to these changes, and PROVE how it will make their life better.

Without some actual ideas on how to make the world a better place tomorrow and into the future, and without PROVING that these ideas will in fact make things better, all the ideas in the world will just be dismissed.

A vision of the future combined with facts to prove how that vision will make everyone's lives better is what we all need.

Sky is falling rhetoric will not get us anywhere with the collective human psyche.

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LEE--On the button
Posted by: crazy carlos on Oct 8, 2007 6:42 PM   
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About 4 years ago I got into an interesting conversation with several prof,s on vacation in Floripa, Brazil and started with the Peak Oil thing and after several days and meeting at a local rest/watering hole our conclusions came to the same conclusion--why are we talking about caron emission, solar panels etc with about 4.5 BILLION too many people on the earth and more coming. Got to stop the problem before you start talking about solutions. RELIGION is going to be the real nut to this thing. It always seems to come down to our 6-8 thousand year hang up. Having said that, wecan now see we have a compounded problem. Solve it or this place is going to be toast. crazy Carlos

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» RE: Because we can't exterminate 4.5 billion people Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
apparently...
Posted by: Aussie Kim on Oct 8, 2007 9:09 PM   
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...40% of the world's carbon emissions come from the burn-offs in Indonesia. (so they can grow stuff like palm oil AND destroy the entire habitat of the orang utan. A double bonus, as it were) (?)

If we could help THOSE people find some other way of making money, perhaps we could help save the earth AND the orang utan!

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I have a vision for all of us
Posted by: Beck on Oct 9, 2007 7:39 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Stop needing visionaries. In fact, why would we wish that upon anyone? They tend to die young, often hated by large numbers on both sides, often, like Jesus, going from extreme adulation to extreme rejection within days. Why isn't it enough for us to be given the right information and plenty of ideas? Are we spoiled by being seen, for all our lives, as consumers, to the point where if we're not marketed to, we are apathetic and passive? To expect someone to come up with research and a reasonable presentation, along with ideas for us as individuals and on top of that, have a winning, charismatic, talk-show host persona, means we expect far too much. We all know a list of things to do about the climate, and about other societal ills. We KNOW already.

So the thought for the day: Today, I'll do what's right without inspiration. (Seems to me that I read this type of thought frequently from authors, athletes, musicians: stop waiting for inspiration. Get started. Maybe just do it?) Yes, I have a lazy side, and it will rebel; yes, I have a resentful side, and it will decide that if no one else is changing, I don't have to either; yes, I have a passive side that will continue, maybe all my life, on insisting upon doing nothing till someone else makes me feel like it. But I'll start, and it will never end, and I won't like that either; what I want is to think that there are a few easy lifestyle changes and soon I'll be at the end of them. But that won't happen. Just as we all used to think that pollution mainly came from corporations, and now know something different, just as we all used to think that recycling, different light bulbs, fairly easy changes, would be enough, now we know that we all need to be actively involved, and our marketed-to psyches will resent this and feel cheated. Later we'll be relieved at all the traveling we don't have to do, all the places and activities and fulfilment and enrichment that we don't have to bother with, but at first it will rankle.

Something I notice about making the change of walking and biking rather than driving is that it's catching. Both liberal and conservative neighbors are starting to do so, also. We don't need a vision or a visionary to make a difference. Be the change you want to see. Be the visionary in your neighborhood.

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» RE: You contradict yourself and are way off Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
Associating Consuming With Happiness/Success
Posted by: rjgwood on Oct 9, 2007 8:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A large part of this that I didn't touch on earlier is the fact that one thing the Republicans/Corporations and also some Democrats have done is to equate consuming with happiness. Life is one big chase for things, and Americans are caught in a race to buy via charging and then buy the next item. Acquiring possessions is seen as a vehicle to the "good life." Definitely talking about what it really means to be happy and achieve, what success is about is extremely important.

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