COMMENTS: 227
Does Our Planet Have Too Many People?
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This is one of those issues that is regarded by many privately as common sense but rarely gets a public airing. Of the environmental organizations I managed to contact, all acknowledged that it was frequently brought up by the public in meetings and letters. Yet all said they did not campaign on the subject and had no position on it. It seems that there is a worrying disconnect between a generally accepted consensus among those who shape the national conversation about the environment and their audiences, who either are much less certain or believe that, if the planet's resources are being grossly depleted, there are just too many of us about.
Too many people. That is certainly the impression from studying the maps published this week by the Campaign to Protect Rural England, which chart how fast the areas of the country undisturbed by urban development, roads or other noise are disappearing. Since the 60s, whole chunks of England have been broken up into small fragments, absorbed into a dense network of towns, cities and major roads.
The maps reinforce what people experience. You try getting away from it all in England, and you are tangled in traffic jams, shoe-horned into campsites, followed by the whine of motor-bikes and the roar of traffic even up on the hills. We live in a crowded island - a truth that it has become unacceptable to acknowledge because of the unpleasant associations it brings with it.
But England is now the second most densely populated country in Europe, after Belgium, and at current rates of increase it could be second only to Bangladesh in the world by 2074. There are those who argue that there's no need for alarm, and that we can concentrate development in brownfield sites to accommodate all the millions of extra homes needed. But how many more people can you squeeze into cities that already seem to be choking under the weight of their population density - the buses and trains packed, the streets clogged and the parks on a Sunday afternoon teeming with people.
It's not surprising that environmental organizations fight shy of getting into this subject. It embroils them in a host of deeply emotive and difficult debates. Immigration for one. Most of the UK population growth in the next few decades will be attributable to immigration. Should we have a balanced migration policy with a net zero increase? Given how many British-born are emigrating to Australia, the US, Spain and France, it would still allow us to maintain our international responsibilities to provide asylum. But it wouldn't allow us to absorb the same quantities of cheap east European labor that have subsidized our economic growth.
Population management is just as emotive. People quickly bristle at the idea of any government telling them how many children they can have. The whole policy area of population was given a bad name by India's enthusiasm in the 70s and 80s when government programs ensnared uncomprehending young men into having vasectomies. But should the UK government pursue a policy of persuasion, a Stop at Two campaign, to bring people's attention to the carbon footprint of having lots of children? If it did, would it work? Internationally, population policy has been crippled by US and Vatican opposition on abortion and contraception. Have they managed to bully environmental organisations into this awkward silence?
When challenged, environmentalists have coherent arguments to defend their retreat from the population debate. They insist that the pressure on the earth's resources - its water, forests, soil fertility - and carbon emissions are all about consumption and lifestyle, not about sheer numbers of human beings. They rightly point out that the average American produces some 20 tonnes of carbon a year while some of those living in areas of the world with the fastest growing populations, such as Africa, produce a tiny fraction of that kind of carbon footprint. They insist that the earth can support the 9 billion now predicted by 2050 (the increase in the next 40 years will equate to roughly what the entire global population was in 1950) if everyone is living sustainable lifestyles. The focus of campaigning must stay on the consumption patterns of the developed world, rather than on numbers of people.
But there is growing disquiet that it's not an either/or. As the environment finally gets the prominence it deserves, some environmentalists are prepared to assert that population management has to be on the agenda. Christopher Rapley, the director of the Science Museum, has spoken out on the subject; Jonathon Porritt, chair of the government's Sustainability Development Commission, admits it is "tough territory" but argues that "it is intellectually unjustifiable" for the environmental movement not to address it. He wants to see a UK population policy that covers both family planning and immigration, aimed at long-term population decline. That would mark a dramatic shift in policy. In particular, he rejects the oft-cited need to keep up the birth rate to pay for pensions. But his attempts to get the government to engage have got nowhere.
As Porritt ruefully admits, his position lands him in some unsavory company. The Optimum Population Trust proposes some batty ideas such as government campaigns on the unattractiveness of parenthood. And it gets much worse. As is often the case where there is a disconnect between public debate and popular sentiment, the British National Party (BNP) is stepping in to grab the territory. It argues that "our countryside is vanishing beneath a tidal wave of concrete," "immigration is creating an environmental disaster" and Britain could become "a tarmac desert."
The BNP is peddling alarmist nonsense. Only 8% of the land of this country is built on, but, as a Mori poll commissioned for Kate Barker's review of land use for the Treasury showed, it doesn't feel like that: those polled put the figure at 50%. This sense of crowdedness and the resentment it can generate needs a grown-up debate. That means talking about consumption patterns and population numbers. It includes pointing out that consumer trends - such as our taste for mobility, the move to smaller households and multiple bathrooms - squeeze the space and resources we share on a small island. But it would also include discussion of the environmental impacts of migration and family size. There's no point giving up your meat and your car, recycling your rubbish and producing lots of children. The challenge is to have that debate while steering well clear of racism - or of the authoritarianism that lurks in the background of environmentalism.
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Posted by: TT5 on Sep 12, 2007 12:20 AM
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» when thinking 'outside the box' may get you arrested in an airport men's restroom . . .
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» RE: Why this calls for...
Posted by: MAD
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Posted by: donl51 on Sep 12, 2007 12:28 AM
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» RE: Overpopulation?
Posted by: jadresak
» RE: Overpopulation?
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Overpopulation?
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» Overreaction?
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Overpopulation?
Posted by: Bladerunner2020
» RE: Overpopulation?
Posted by: leerhok
» RE: Overpopulation?
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
» You may be missing the point here
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: You may be missing the point here
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
» RE: Jeff has the point...
Posted by: jimidee
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Posted by: jparsons on Sep 12, 2007 1:04 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
interlocking societal norms.
The dropping birth rate in the developed countries is well
documented, as is the comparatively large and increasing footprint of each
such person.
Most environmentalists conclude that simply having fewer people is not enough, and so they
promote sustainable measures as a higher priority.
So the public likes the population control idea? That
indicates an easy and obvious idea, not a sound solution.
Immigration control is related to this, but it is hard to know
where to start or stop in the discussion of why so many
people leave their home countries.
"There's no point giving up your meat and your car, recycling your rubbish and producing lots of children."
What unrecycled rubbish! Even with conservative estimates
most Western families could double their birthrate if meat,
a car or three, and huge houses were not considered essential.
And if you consider each person not just to be a resource
consumer but also a contributer to society - a larger
population raised to respect the environment (instead of
stripping it) would be invaluable.
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» What weird logic . . .
Posted by: Moonray
» What an ad hominem response...
Posted by: jparsons
» RE: What weird logic . . .
Posted by: Intellect
» Cool, we've now got religion and abortion in this thread. It should last forever! :-)
Posted by: jparsons
» pfft!
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» RE: Not a convincing premise...
Posted by: leafsong1
» EXACTLY
Posted by: swells
» Mixing arguments here...
Posted by: jparsons
» RE: Mixing arguments here...
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Not a convincing premise...
Posted by: leerhok
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Posted by: El Hombre Malo on Sep 12, 2007 2:32 AM
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On one hand, you have the basical equation; if one person=B pollution and resource depletion, Xpersons= XB, so we better try drop X below 1 or at least keep it there. The famous zero growth. But since western developed population already near those margins (just 5 years ago, Spain was under 1.5 children per woman), the burden falls on developing countries, right?
But what are we exactly demanding from them? Developing countries traditionally have a bigger rural population than those already developed. What many see as cultural proclivity to "overbreeding" is actually an economical response to their needs. With little or no public care systems avaliable, the sick and old depend on large families to survive, because a small one wont be able to provide and care for them when needed. You need a bigger family workforce to provide for what we take for granted in the developed world, mainly health care and education. Higher education, seen as the only way out of that cycle, is possible for most families only if there are already a few sons and daughters working and providing, to allow the younger members to be un-productive while he study.
China is now struggling to support people who are getting to an age where they cant fend for themselves but lack the family net they would have had just a few generations ago. But at least China had public education and health care when they enforced their groth control policies. But what happens in many latinoamerican countries, where decades of IMF "recomendations" have rendered their public safenets useless? Population control would lead to misery of many communities. Misery of Dickens-ian proportions.
And all the while, while they make that sacrifice for the better of all mankind, they would see how their resources are still getting depleted, because our zero-growth, already-developed society, prefers them to suffer rather than limit its own lifestyle. ...why do I find so hard to believe they would find it fair?
And the fun fact is, presently, a childless american couple consume and polute more than any 8 member rural family from a developing country. But hey, let's stop them from becoming too many.
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» RE: BS
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: BS
Posted by: El Hombre Malo
» Get your facts straight
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» RE: Get your facts straight
Posted by: El Hombre Malo
» RE: Get your facts straight
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Get your facts straight
Posted by: El Hombre Malo
» RE: Get your facts straight
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Hell, just imagine what it will be like when they...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: BS
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Back up your "fact".
Posted by: Janet4784
» BS on top of BS
Posted by: pacplyer
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» RE: Should the McCann's access the fund?
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: I don't 'underdtand'...could YOU explain it to me?
Posted by: jimidee
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Posted by: akai ringo on Sep 12, 2007 3:54 AM
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» I agree with it.
Posted by: heid
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Posted by: JDBishop5 on Sep 12, 2007 4:24 AM
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» Economics upside down
Posted by: DeeOhGee
» RE: That is why...
Posted by: jimidee
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Posted by: Davidco on Sep 12, 2007 4:26 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Working for justice in the international economy is the most effective tool for population control. If predatory internatinal corporations and their imperial political puppets could be restrained by the world community from pillaging the developing nations, immigation issues and population issues would evaporate.
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» RE: conomic justice is the answer
Posted by: leafsong1
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Posted by: davescott on Sep 12, 2007 4:48 AM
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» 400 million citizens
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: 400 million citizens
Posted by: leerhok
» RE: population and the environment
Posted by: jmp3954
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Posted by: dwegowy on Sep 12, 2007 5:03 AM
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» RE: Already There
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» RE: Already There
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» RE: Already There
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» RE: Already There
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Posted by: Perko on Sep 12, 2007 5:07 AM
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» RE: Finally...
Posted by: dwegowy
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Posted by: Erik1968 on Sep 12, 2007 5:38 AM
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Too many brown people, too many poor people, too many hungry people...wrong, wrong, wrong.
My cell phone charger wastes more carbon than most of the worlds people do. Alternet's servers probably use more energy than sub-saharan africa.
Kill the rich, and our carbon problems are solved. There are too many of SOME people, that's for sure. Too many of US, the rich bloated plutocrats, who can afford to waste money on ridiculous "organic" manufactured breakfast cereal.
Fight against global warming and for clean air and water, but please don't talk about sterilizing the poor, or killing the unpopularly-colored.
If we start a concentrated bombing campaign at Whole Foods and Trader Joe's, we can probably meet the Kyoto benchmarks within the year. Wouldn't that be better?
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» RE: Too Many Brown People?
Posted by: cmaciain
» Please read the article before commenting next time.
Posted by: KeepsonTickn
» RE: Please read the article before commenting next time.
Posted by: leerhok
» RE: Please read the article before commenting next time.
Posted by: pacplyer
» RE: Too Many Brown People?
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Too Many Brown People?
Posted by: leafsong1
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Posted by: pdxstudent on Sep 12, 2007 5:55 AM
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Is the point, then, of this "don't target the brown people" rhetoric simply that they must stay starving brown people in developing nations? If not, then you HAVE to address the problems their burgeoning populations present not just the world but themselves too.
This faux-concern for the booming populations of developing nations is precisely the bullshit that flows forth from the mouths of those preaching "tolerance"---tolerance precisely at the expense of those who we are tolerating.
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» Sub-Saharans Africans and other Indigenous Peoples Will be the Survivors
Posted by: Whitecliff
» More than A Caveat
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Sub-Saharans Africans and other Indigenous Peoples Will be the Survivors
Posted by: pacplyer
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Sep 12, 2007 6:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think the animals of the planet probably think there are too many of us. Especially 1st worlders.
We blame it on the 3rd worlders but one conscious eco-groovy American individual consumes / pollutes more in 1 day than a 3rd worlder does in a month...
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» RE: Primates, Cetaceans, and Polar Bears, oh my!!
Posted by: fferris
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Sep 12, 2007 6:53 AM
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It's not pointless to the suffering, tortured, and slaughtered animals....
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» Animals don't suffer
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: Pointless to cut out meat?
Posted by: UCSD90
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on Sep 12, 2007 6:56 AM
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The Western nations would not be doing so badly with their lower than replacement birth rates. Unfortunately, their populations continue to grow due to unwise (okay, insane, from a long term point of view) immigration policies even while their environmental problems increase.
The real "baby factories" are in Asia and that's where the problem most desperately needs to be addressed.
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» The real baby factories are in Africa and South Asia
Posted by: janvdb
» RE: Yes
Posted by: leafsong1
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Posted by: tomkara on Sep 12, 2007 7:29 AM
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» RE: Some of you must be dreaming
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: Some of you must be dreaming
Posted by: leerhok
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Posted by: CASF.MSRB on Sep 12, 2007 7:30 AM
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The Freudian HIVE Predators
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» RE: It's the lifestyle, stupid!
Posted by: leerhok
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Posted by: danielgeery on Sep 12, 2007 8:06 AM
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» RE: Final solution!
Posted by: leerhok
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» RE: Madeleine can have an abortion but let's get REAL.
Posted by: prairiedog
» RE: Madeleine can have an abortion but let's get REAL.
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
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Posted by: EJW on Sep 12, 2007 8:16 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Each of these sects seems to be trying to 'out-populate' the rest of the world. It's about power and control, not about saving souls and it disgusts me.
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» The 800 lb Gorilla
Posted by: crazy carlos
» RE: The 800 lb Gorilla
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: eligion
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» RE: eligion
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 12, 2007 9:33 AM
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» RE: ASONS FOR OVERPOPULATION VARY
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: ASONS FOR OVERPOPULATION VARY
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: ASONS FOR OVERPOPULATION VARY
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: ASONS FOR OVERPOPULATION VARY
Posted by: Intellect
» RE: ASONS FOR OVERPOPULATION VARY
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line on Sep 12, 2007 9:44 AM
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» RE: I have a complaint..imagine that..
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Sep 12, 2007 10:00 AM
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Fundies of all stripes are welcome to their personal religion(s). I don't need it, thanks.
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Posted by: Suzon on Sep 12, 2007 10:03 AM
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Even then they might be made good use of in some way.
Perhaps as replacements for animal testing.
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Posted by: vertical on Sep 12, 2007 10:17 AM
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Here is something I would like comments on: If somneone has been convicted of a felony that victomized a child why should they be able to retain their reproductive rights?
In this country we will imprison you if you have done something wrong, and we may even put you to death if you did something really wrong, but it would be wrong to take someone's reproductive rights away from them. They let Ted Bundy marry and father a child while he was sitting on death row, and the woman that gave birth to his daughter was a releated to one of his victoms. Is that not kind of sick? Would you want to be Ted's daughter?
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» RE: All the world's problems
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» All the world's problems
Posted by: EJW
» RE: All the world's problems
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» The courts
Posted by: vertical
» RE: The courts
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: BobbieP on Sep 12, 2007 10:21 AM
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Posted by: Ambrose Pare on Sep 12, 2007 10:34 AM
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I want clean air, clean rivers, peace and quiet, and tons of space. I want lots of animals to hunt, and tons of natural resources. I want my lakes and creeks packed with fish.
The world is a pie and we all get a slice, the more people, the smaller the slices we all get. I'm selfish, I'm a horrible person I don't care. I don't care about what the world can support. I only care about quality of life. And the quality of life goes down as the population exceeds its optimum.
So do what China has done. Who cares that we denied someone from becoming another single mommy.
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» RE: Cut the excuses
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Because
Posted by: WhatNow?
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Posted by: sofla100 on Sep 12, 2007 10:36 AM
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» RE: Over-Population is Encouraged by the USA
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: Over-Population is Encouraged by the USA
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Over-Population is Encouraged by the USA
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
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Posted by: MTguy on Sep 12, 2007 10:58 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unless population growth is reined in at some point, disease-war for territory-natural disasters will come into play in keeping our numbers down whether we like it or not.
The other side of the coin is medicine is doing all it can to extend our life spans. Unfortunately this is the time in life when doing that prolonging takes more resources than it does to keep a young person going.
Finally, consumption level - we can't have it all and sustain ourselves as a species on this planet. We consume far, far more than we need to live and that is going to come back to bite us right in the you-know-where.
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» RE: Overpopulation... the ticking time bomb
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
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Posted by: mmqc on Sep 12, 2007 12:15 PM
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» RE: We live in a terrarium!
Posted by: jesme
» RE: We live in a terrarium!
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
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Posted by: Gaubladt on Sep 12, 2007 12:18 PM
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Posted by: gerdhansel on Sep 12, 2007 12:25 PM
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In the end, the perennial Clancy hero John Clark and his sidekick “Ding” Chavez save the day, catching those evil tree huggers in the Brazilian rain forest. Clark and his band of Deltas and SAS volunteers force those Granola-crunchers to strip naked. In a terse farewell, Clark tells them to have a nice life in the jungle before he abandons them to the company of the jaguars and the piranhas.
Of course this is totally fictional and fanciful, right? I mean, radical Gaia worshippers wouldn’t really plot to treat human beings like plant-destroying viruses and impose some sort of Earth-friendly final solution on homo sapiens, would they?
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» RE: tom clancy wrote a book about this, you know
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: tom clancy wrote a book about this, you know
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: tom clancy wrote a book about this, you know
Posted by: PeterW
» RE: tom clancy wrote a book about this, you know
Posted by: pacplyer
» RE: We can only hope so...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: We can only hope so...
Posted by: Roverton
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Posted by: drblack on Sep 12, 2007 1:12 PM
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At least have one,two tops so as not to add to the population.
People who have more than two should pay more taxes,and those who have none should get a tax break.
People LOVE to say that as a country gets industrialized population drops. That statement ignores biology...population ALWAYS increases unless natural things like conflict,disease cuts it down.
We do have a good chance of some natural(probably disease) cutting down the human population in the near future.
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» RE: It has to be only one...
Posted by: jimidee
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Posted by: Gravitas on Sep 12, 2007 1:45 PM
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» RE: Ironic
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
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Posted by: Constitutionalist75 on Sep 12, 2007 1:44 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But many millions of women are NOT free, but forced by the ignorance of medieval church dogma and ambitious husbands to birth "all the children God will allow", which is a hypocritical dictate because greed motivates it, each husband dreaming of a large, wealthy and powerful family, but failing in competition with millions of others, and instead exploited by the agribusiness corporations that need all the cheap labor they can get, and the ever-growing World economy that is crushing and poisoning the Earth for short term profits, regardless of the ecocidal consequences we can see around us if we look.
If we want to survive as a species, we need family planning clinics in every nation where women are gently educated and free to decide when and if to have children. Then, the Earth may return to its natural order and we humans can live in balance with that order and at peace with each other.
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» I totally agree
Posted by: janvdb
» RE: I totally agree
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: I totally agree
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: janvdb on Sep 12, 2007 1:57 PM
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We need to reduce our consumption, cut back on our pollution AND REDUCE OUR BIRTHRATE.
Jan VanDenBerg
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» faith in freedom
Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: FINALLLY someone has the balls to state the obvious
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: FINALLLY someone has the balls to state the obvious
Posted by: NoKidding
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Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Sep 12, 2007 2:05 PM
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» It's not just energy. It's water, soil and sinks to dump our trash and carbon dioxide
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» RE: The World has too many people who dont give a...
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» RE: The World has too many people who dont give a...
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: The World has too many people who dont give a...
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» RE: The World has too many people who dont give a...
Posted by: pacplyer
» RE: The World has too many people who dont give a...
Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: The World has too many people who dont give a...
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Its the ecology...stupid!
Posted by: jimidee
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Posted by: janvdb on Sep 12, 2007 2:14 PM
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Almost all the posters (except me) attack the writer like he were cheering Bin Ladin.
The commenters here are far more supportive of the idea that population growth is a problem we need to talk about and address.
Interesting difference. Are Slate readers that much more conservative than Alternet readers?
Jan VanDenBerg
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» RE: Slate readers disagree
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
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Posted by: jesme on Sep 12, 2007 2:53 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seriously, how can you take this nonsense seriously? The industrialized world, and much of the developing world, is heading for a population bust, with birthrates plunging all over the place. Russia, Japan, most of Europe, are actually losing population. If it goes too far, entire cultures are liable to disappear. I thought people around here were big fans of preserving indigenous cultures. Surely Japan counts...
The only hope for many countries is to get people having more babies, not fewer. It's also the best way of tidying up the environment, if the births are coupled with solid economic growth and good education.
Sorry folks, but I just don't see my fellow humans as the problem. They're really the solution. And if you don't agree with me...well, you can just go hang! :-)
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» RE: Too funny
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» Too stupid
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Too stupid
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: Too stupid
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Too stupid
Posted by: jesme
» RE: Too stupid
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Too stupid
Posted by: jesme
» RE: Too stupid
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: You guys can't see the forest for the trees!
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Too stupid
Posted by: leafsong1
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Posted by: jeffrey7 on Sep 12, 2007 3:30 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We can sustain a large population only if we enlarge our understanding of just what we are in this life. We need to raise our respect for eachother,the Planet and learn the concept of shared responsibility for all living things.
Draft Jeffrey7 for Prez
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» RE: It's not population,it's about consideration and respect.
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: It's not population,it's about consideration and respect.
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: It's about balance...
Posted by: jimidee
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Posted by: leafsong1 on Sep 12, 2007 3:54 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The people there can never go
a house of steel without a door
and we're stuck here forever more
Don't believe everything you see on TV
Don't you know Star Trek mey never be
and if the little green men really roam
what if they came knocking and found nobody home?
We all live in a house of steel.
Hey, it's no big deal, but,
we ALL must live in this house of steel
The world's got enough of population
There's no more time for hesitation
Gotta spread the word to all the nations
ain't nothin wrong with masturbation
and if you feel the need for penitence,
there ain't nothing wrong with abstinence
and I don't know what you believe,
but it ain't no sin to contracieve.
If you've got one coming and you've got two,
well I don;t know what you should do
but if you ask me for my point of view,
I 'd say hey, it's your body it's up to you
And if you feel the need to copulate
with a similarly gendered human mate
Well, if half of mankind shared your fate
then every child would have food on a plate.
'Cause we all live in a house of steel.
Hey, it's no big deal, but,
we ALL must live in this house of steel
All through the chains of history
they told us how it ought to be
but now we look around and see
we gotta give it back and set it free
We all live in a house of steel.
Hey, it's no big deal, but,
we ALL must live in this house of steel
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Posted by: Jersey Devil on Sep 12, 2007 6:17 PM
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Posted by: makewaves on Sep 12, 2007 6:56 PM
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» RE: Population
Posted by: Intellect
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Posted by: lacamila on Sep 12, 2007 7:41 PM
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» RE: Society pressures people to procreate.
Posted by: NoKidding
» RE: Society pressures people to procreate.
Posted by: luzmejor
» I TOTALLY agree with all three posters here
Posted by: janvdb
» RE: I TOTALLY agree with all three posters here
Posted by: demidesigrrl
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Posted by: Whitecliff on Sep 12, 2007 8:57 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are some things that could be done. Making birth control pills and condoms freely available for all is one. Also, educating people as to the necessity of controlling the population for the future of planet Earth is key. What is needed nowadays is "crisis rhetoric"...sound the alarms, ring the bells, and blow the whistles -- WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF TIME-SPACE-RESOURCES AS A SPECIES UNLESS SOMETHING IS DONE SOON!
Some form of peaceful, legal, community accepted suicide for the very old-sick-infirm is also a partial solution. In the past, suicide was almost always a phenomenon found overwhelmingly amongst senior citizens that had "overlived their usefulness" -- this might seem barabric to some, but there does come a point when many senior citizens to become a 'drain on the system' so to speak. I fully respect all life, but there comes a point when it is just time to throw in the towel and let the younger generation take over.
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» You are damaging the push for population control by mixing it with this nutty euthenasia stuff
Posted by: janvdb
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Posted by: vasumurti on Sep 12, 2007 11:45 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In her 1971 bestseller, Diet for a Small Planet, Frances Moore Lappe pointed out that it takes 16 pounds of grain to produce one pound of beef.
Ronald J. Sider, in his 1977 book, Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger, pointed out that 220 million Americans were eating enough food (largely because of the high consumption of grain-fed livestock) to feed over one billion people in the poorer countries.
In his 1977 essay, "Can Britain Feed Itself?", Professor Kenneth Mellanby stated that Britain, which then had a population of 50 million, could support a population of 250 million on a vegetarian diet.
In her 1979 book, What's Wrong with Eating Meat?, Barbara Parham writes:
"...there is no correlation between land density and hunger. China has twice as may people per cultivated acre as India, yet less of a hunger problem. Bangladesh has just one-half the people per cultivated acre that Taiwan has, yet Taiwan has no starvation, while Bangladesh has one of the highest rates in the world. The most densely populated countries in the world today are not India and Bangladesh, but Holland and Japan."
In his 1986 UK bestseller, Why You Don't Need Meat, Peter Cox writes:
"Oxfam, the international charity, reports that in Brazil huge cattle ranches take up some of the most fertile soil in the whole country, yet 60 percent of Brazilians are malnourished.
"Oxfam estimates that in Mexico, 80 percent of the children in rural areas are undernourished, yet the livestock are fed more grain than the human population eats! The livestock are exported, of course, to satisfy the developed nations' craving for cheap hamburgers."
In his 1987 Pulitzer Prize nominated Diet for a New America, John Robbins writes:
"The livestock population of the United States today consumes enough grain and soybeans to feed over five times the entire human population of the country. We feed these animals over 80% of the corn we grow, and over 95% of the oats. Less than half the harvested agricultural acreage is used to grow food for people. Most of it is used to grow livestock feed."
The threat of overpopulation is frequently used to justify abortion as birth control. On a vegetarian diet, however, the world could easily support a population several times its present size. The world's cattle alone consume enough to feed over 8.7 billion humans.
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» RE: "Feeding" the humans is only a small part of the equation...
Posted by: jimidee
» Grass-fed beef used up no human food
Posted by: janvdb
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Posted by: leerhok on Sep 12, 2007 11:49 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The ecological damage man produces is not the sole product of the number of people but the product of people X standard of living. That's why a person in England and the US contributes many times more than a person in Bangladesh to global ecology breakdown.
The plain fact is that China's one-kid-family has already saved the world from disaster. Just imagine if 1.5 billion Chinese had produced offspring like Catholics and Muslims!
It is also a plain fact that China's present development towards Western standard of living will kill life on earth long before all their inhabitants have reached that goal.
Is it not high time man asks himself whether he hasn't reached the limit of being the dominant animal on earth with fatal consequences for all other living things on the planet? Does man know that when he has succeeded in making life on earth impossible he himself is not going to live on? Does he know that all cancers die together with their victims?
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Sep 13, 2007 1:50 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
earth. Have the Star Wars, Star Trek and other SciFi movies
taught you nothing? The Space Elevator used to be science
fiction, but now there is a serious attempt to build it. There is a
new frontier and we HAVE to go there. It is Space, the high and
infinite frontier. Take a look at the space elevator at
www.liftport.com. Also take a look at the "Cosmological
Forecast" at jetpress.org/volume12/CosmologicalForecast.htm.
According to the Cosmological Forecast, for every century we
delay the onset of Galactic colonization, there will be 5 times 10
exponent 46 fewer human lifetimes between now and the time the
galaxy dies. That is 5 followed by 46 "0"s. Our population
explosion may be allowed to continue as long as it happens in
space, not on earth. The solar system as a whole can support 10
times as many people as earth alone. [If we build a Dyson
Sphere, the multiple is much larger.] Once we have filled the
solar system, we can move on to the Centauri Cluster. We should
even take enough people off of the earth to reduce the population
of earth. Note that evolution will occur. Space is a harsh place
where stupidity will be rewarded with instant death.
Check out http://lifeboat.com. Some of us are working on
surviving in space while the rest of you undergo your ecological
disaster. We can repopulate earth much later.
We have to colonize space for another reason. In only 33,000
years, Proxima Centauri, a red dwarf star, will enter our Oort
Cloud, causing a period of "Heavy Bombardment." Earth will be
struck by giant impactors like the one that killed the dinosaurs
unless we humans are out there preventing it. We are the only
possible defenders Mother Earth can hope for. We have to do it.
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» RE: That is cute!
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: That is cute!
Posted by: leerhok
» RE: Outside the box
Posted by: leafsong1
» Ridiculous and a dangerous distraction
Posted by: janvdb
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Posted by: markie on Sep 13, 2007 3:13 AM
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» RE: markie
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» RE: markie
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» RE: markie
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
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Posted by: jimidee on Sep 13, 2007 6:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a 30 year carreer employee with EPA, I see over-population at the root of every social and environmental problem we have. Name one that isn't directly or indirectly caused by it. Just one. I also see that our "solutions" are what we call in the inductry, end-of-pipe solutions. This gets its name from the waste water treatment industry, but is appropriate for all types of end-of-cycle solutions. It is easier to prevent pollution than it is to treat it after it is released into the environment. It's the same thing for population pollution.
With our over-population problem, we can do it the easy way or the hard way, but in the end it WILL be done. We can take bold and necessary actions to curb our numbers (easy way) or we can wait around a few years and disease, famine, global warming, war and other anti-social behavior resulting from overcrowded conditions to do it for us (hard way). It is going to get pretty ugly for our kids and grandkids, let's face it.
The Earth will cleans itself of this population infection (which is us) if we do not take charge of it ourselves. Take a look at a petri dish with a bacteria growing on it and then take a look at a satellite view of the Earth and see the similarities in appearance. There are clusters of bacteria all over the medium in the dish, just like on the surface of the Earth. Coincidence? I think not.
Religion has been and will continue to be the primary force that prevents most folks from actively participating in any reduction plan, as somehow people think God wants them to have as many babies as they can. The more fundamental the religion, the more babies each woman produces...it is in the data. It is not just a Vatican issue either, as the typical Islamic woman in the middle east produces over 8 children per. This thinking may have been a successful survival strategy a few years ago before modern medicine and technology reduced death rates significantly, but it is no longer needed and in fact, is unconscionable.
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» RE: But I want ba-bies!
Posted by: leerhok
» RE: TRUE
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: But I want ba-bies!
Posted by: SolitonMan
» We must change attitudes, we must at least try
Posted by: truthteller
» RE: You are to be commended for your sprog-free choice...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: We must change attitudes, we must at least try
Posted by: NoKidding
» With computer dating, the child-free needn't be spouse-free anymore
Posted by: janvdb
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Posted by: cognitorex on Sep 13, 2007 11:33 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.
The first sentence of the second paragraph from "How to deal with a falling population", (The Economist, 7/26/07), is as follows;
"Overcrowding and a shortage of resources constrain bug populations. The reasons for the growth of the human population may be different, but the pattern may be surprisingly similar."
What a wonderful article, setting the scientific/historical time line for sustainable population growth. It also, of course, sets the hysterical time line when Women Rights' advocates started their misdirected, dare I say, clamoring for change.
Actually, as this article points out, certainly by inference, the change to having fewer children had already occurred and women were fit to be tied because nature was calling to them to react to (not create) such change.
I get special pleasure out of the article because (including writing a play on the subject in 1973) I have held for years that the so-called Women's Liberation movement was quite simply the natural formation of a 'collective unconscious' among women that baby making had been demoted. In effect women did not and were not choosing liberation. Nature had 'liberated' them in order for earth to achieve human population/resource homeostasis.
Consider this quote from the article which reduces the entirety of womens' natural reproductive options and the intellectual underpinnings of the Womens Rights Movement to a few simple choices:
"If women decide to spend their 20s clubbing rather than child-rearing, and their cash on handbags rather than diapers, that's up to them. But the transition to a lower population can be a difficult one........"
Looking back from this perspective, in the now, one wonders what was all the fuss really about?
Disclaimer: I believe passionately that women did not enact the liberation they so passionately espoused. They were liberated, as in less responsibilities and more free time, by the nature mandated necessity to have fewer children. I think a substantial portion of the theory of Womern's Lib is false. The steps called for post-liberation to achieve equality and fairness were and are valid.
Craig Johnson
Labels: collective unconscious, earth's resources, explosion, homeostasis, liberation, cognitorex blog, population, womens rights
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Posted by: fox1 on Sep 13, 2007 2:55 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: I vote that we...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: I vote that we...
Posted by: fox1
» We need better morons
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: HUH?
Posted by: drblack
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Posted by: fox1 on Sep 13, 2007 3:06 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ROVE-CHANEY IN 08!
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» RE: TO MADELINE BUNTING.......
Posted by: drblack
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Posted by: Ullern on Sep 13, 2007 5:35 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As one species expands (like Homo sapiens sapiens, doubling population in one generation - 1965: 3.3 bn - 2005: 6.5 bn), the population of other species are pressed to oblivion.
Nothing strange about that.
Rather it's a natural law within the limited set of the Biosphere which we can't overturn (- at least there’s one law Bush can’t rescind...).
So to limit extinction of other species the only way is to limit our own expansion. Like it or not. It amounts to impossible to both eating and keeping our "cake", i.e. our living-environment ("can't have your cake and eat it too").
Every child born expanding human population amounts to a deliberate collective human choice to decrease other species in the Biosphere. Unless someone works out how to expand the Earth’s Biosphere (very unlikely), that’s how it is and will be.
Choose.
A planned downscaling (or even stagnation at first) of human population is necessary to harmonize humanity with our premises in the living Biosphere. With population increase every other disharmony with our surrounding environment also increases.
I hear the claims: "Earth can sustain 9 -12 bn people - if only people act rationally and don't fight". But people can't act rationally in that sense, particularly not when crowded, pushed and squeezed. And that's the only rational way to think about the issue. So, collectively deliberate population control is the only alternative to indeliberate control in the forms of war, famine, pestilence and other kinds of needless death.
But many humans - and particularly the billion of us on the net - benefit from a surplus population ("surplus" in the sense of expendable people willing to do ofr fill any kind of unpleasant task to survive). Limiting population has the same kind of "inconvenient" downside as any other environ-mental issue: it means limiting ourselves. Including my self.
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» RE: YES - OUR PLANET HAS FAR TOO MANY PEOPLE FOR COMFORT
Posted by: leafsong1
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Posted by: ldasteelworker on Sep 13, 2007 9:29 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Our civilization continues to behave like so much bacteria in a Petri dish with respect to population, resources, and pollution -- (a standard bell-shaped population curve).
The fact is, the more people living unsustainably on our planet, the greater the impacts in resource depletion and pollution are... How much the world can actually handle without reaching catastrophic tipping-points can be debated but eventually there is an end-point that we will reach.
We have unleashed the deregulated viral form of global corporate power upon the planet to consume whatever humans, governments, or resources that stand in the way of increasing their power and profit. Now there's a population that needs to be controlled!
Our current generation, with few exceptions, has been gamed into "reality" television zombies that really do not care about anything or themselves for that matter.
The situation is grim indeed: exponential population; armed conflicts over resources; rampant use of fossil fuel energy; destruction of the commons; and pollution of our air, food, water, genome, and politics to mention a few of my favorite things...
The real question is whether or not we can overcome the political, religious, economic, social, and corporate obstacles that currently stand our way that prohibit rapid change and progress towards a real sustainable and progressive civilization and society.
Can we change from our current course toward ultimate economic and environmental collapse? Are we really more intelligent than a culture of bacteria? I would like to think so -- the ways to change are already known to us, but so far we haven't proven that!
Of course we may have already solved any over population questions via "Better Infertility Through Chemistry" as endocrine-disrupting chemical pollution is proving to work wonders in this area... ;(
See Also:
( http://www.chicagopublicradio.org/Program_WV_Series.aspx ); Click on: "End of the World"; Click on: "Better Infertility Through Chemistry".
( http://www.ourstolenfuture.com/index.htm )
The book: 'Our Stolen Future' brought world-wide attention to scientific discoveries about endocrine disruption and the fact that common contaminants can interfere with the natural signals controlling development of the fetus.
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Posted by: Whitecliff on Sep 13, 2007 10:05 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Because of corporate (mass) farming, topsoil is being depleted VERY quickly...when the pioneers in America first settled the Midwest the topsoil there was basically virginal, sometimes 2 or 3 feet thick of beautifully fertile, untouched soil. Now, there isn't much left in many of these places (because of bad farming methods and erosion mostly) and the crops we all enjoy so cheaply are sustained only through extensive use of chemical fertilizers and the like.
Desertification is also a major problem in areas where all of the topsoil has eroded due to poor farming methods and human-caused erosion. It takes approximately 500 years for one inch of topsoil to be deposited, but there are approx. 25 billion tons of topsoil lost each year.
Also, prime farmland and pastureland is being developed and paved over at an unsustainable rate -- once the developers and construction people 'level the land' out to lay foundations for buildings and install pipes and such that prime topsoil is basically gone forever since it takes hundreds or thousands of years to form a good layer of fertile/arable topsoil, while it only takes an afternoon on a bulldozer to wipe it all out. Sadly, once this fertile soil it is lost it will never come back.
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» RE: The topsoil issue & overpopulation
Posted by: vasumurti
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Posted by: denisaf on Sep 13, 2007 10:30 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: jparsons on Sep 13, 2007 10:57 PM
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How funny this should happen right now - shows where some
of the real world powers are with respect to population control.
I.e. "for somebody else, please"
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Posted by: Jeff Hoffman on Sep 14, 2007 4:59 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Environmentalists who claim that "the pressure on the earth's resources - its water, forests, soil fertility - and carbon emissions are all about consumption and lifestyle, not about sheer numbers of human beings" are ecologically uninformed, to put it diplomatically. Any animal, especially modern humans, that overpopulates destroys its environment, which leads to its own starvation. Unfortunately for the rest of the planet, humans have figured out how to circumvent these natural controls, so the Earth now suffers from extreme human overpopulation in addition to all the other harms that humans have been causing since the inception of civilization.
The problem with getting human population reduced is that aside from killing people, the only way to do it is birth control. Our bodies, like those of all animals, tell us to procreate as much as possible. When most children died before reaching breeding age and many mothers died in childbirth, having as many children as possible simply maintained the same population. But once we discovered agriculture and settled down, there was no need to have as many children. Unfortunately, in the 10-12,000 years since that discovery, humans have either not figured out that they need to limit the size of their families or they just don't care. Either way, statements like "government campaigns on the unattractiveness of parenthood" would be 'batty" simply show that humans have still not come to the realization that there are far too many of us and we need to start reducing our numbers.
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» RE: Twin Roots Of Environmental Harms
Posted by: vasumurti
» I am perhaps optimistic...
Posted by: jparsons
» RE: I am perhaps optimistic...
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
» I am certainly astonished!
Posted by: jparsons
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Posted by: Betsy L. Angert on Sep 16, 2007 6:58 PM
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I thank you for this discussion. For quite some time, I have expressed this concern. If we look at human waste alone, we understand. We suffocate this planet with most every move.
We speak of energy consumption; although we do little wholeheartedly to change what we accept as a hazard to the health of Mother Nature. Most live blindly. They trust the powers that be will take care of what they do not. Yet, these mega-forces, corporate and government profit from the status-quo.
Instead of living for the Seventh Generation, we trust that seven generations from now, someone will do what we dare not attempt.
I pen much on the environment. Yet, with each inscription I acknowledge as long as people have babies, in error, or with a desire to see what their genes might produce, we will not reduce the damage that mankind has wrought on this planet.
For me, the discussion is similar to the theories Thomas Paine espoused.
"In order to gain a clear and just idea of the design and end of government, let us suppose a small number of persons settled in some sequestered part of the earth, unconnected with the rest; they will then represent the first peopling of any country, or of the world. In this state of natural liberty, society will be their first thought.
A thousand motives will excite them thereto; the strength of one man is so unequal to his wants, and his mind so unfitted for perpetual solitude, that he is soon obliged to seek assistance and relief of another, who in his turn requires the same."
We must work together for the commonweal. Laws are meant to benefit the whole. They are not intended to harm the few.
I invite your thoughts on essays that I think may speak to this topic. We, worldwide, and particularly in America, consume and consume. We overpopulate the planet so that others might serve our needs, or so that we might have what we want regardless, of the effect on mother Earth.
Mother Earth; The Human Virus
Capitalism; Competitive Markets Cut To The Core; Inequity Is Inevitable
Betsy L. Angert
BeThink.org
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Posted by: mike_burns on Sep 17, 2007 4:59 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seven thousand years later-
And God said, Mission Accomplished.
Please, let the Vatican know.
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Posted by: gonnaBsic on Sep 18, 2007 1:41 PM
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Posted by: WAUB on Sep 18, 2007 9:01 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we are to understand the future of energy, we know already that energy availability will drastically reduce in "developed" nations (such a sad misnomer) and further reduce in "developing" countries. That means more reliance on solar energy to provide biomass (predominantly required for food). I'm certain there are some clear energy-to-population ratios for food and resource cultivation. I suspect that a balance of population to energy production still leaves much room for large populations. The energy consumed via conventional photosynthetic food production is the energy for life. The energy consumed for this kind of food is a positive feedback loop because it encourages and enables (particularly when advanced methods of organic cultivation are used) the conditions for recycling of water to a state of cleanliness and usefulness, encourages the absorption of pollutants, and promotes a diversity of useful biomass. The future will require lots of people to be engaged in food production.
Cuba is an amazing example of how this works. If the world could simply come to terms with the need to integrate technology and what little hydrocarbon resources we still have to increase our biomass production, it's likely that population in and of itself would not be as threatening as it might now appear.
The future of the planet will now be decided between oil peak and climate change; when either or both arrive, surprising and dramatic reductions in population will result. There's no way around this. We could certainly lessen the impact if we took steps now to mitigate our increasing population. The future will be the test of our notions of civilization, evolution, and culture. To date, we have behaved - despite our technology and mythologies - much like animals. Humans are still more reactionary than anticipatory. So let the population discussion continue.
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Posted by: IPF on Sep 19, 2007 12:36 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Probably because back then the estimates were that by 2020 there would be 20 billion people, then that became 15 billion a few years later, then 10 billion. Well guess what? Now the forecasts are that we will peak at about 6.5Billion, sooo...
I guess the pressure is off that strawman.
But let's face it, the whole "there's too many people on earth" argument stems from a completely elitist view - "hey, I don't want my sh_t taken... stop the growth!!!" just another of the holier than thou leftist progressive (yeah right-that's an oxymoron) view of a perfect world.
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» RE: You sound like a junky...
Posted by: jimidee
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Posted by: TT5 on Sep 12, 2007 12:20 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» when thinking 'outside the box' may get you arrested in an airport men's restroom . . .
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» RE: Why this calls for...
Posted by: MAD
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Posted by: donl51 on Sep 12, 2007 12:28 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Overpopulation?
Posted by: jadresak
» RE: Overpopulation?
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Overpopulation?
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» Overreaction?
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Overpopulation?
Posted by: Bladerunner2020
» RE: Overpopulation?
Posted by: leerhok
» RE: Overpopulation?
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
» You may be missing the point here
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: You may be missing the point here
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
» RE: Jeff has the point...
Posted by: jimidee
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jparsons on Sep 12, 2007 1:04 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
interlocking societal norms.
The dropping birth rate in the developed countries is well
documented, as is the comparatively large and increasing footprint of each
such person.
Most environmentalists conclude that simply having fewer people is not enough, and so they
promote sustainable measures as a higher priority.
So the public likes the population control idea? That
indicates an easy and obvious idea, not a sound solution.
Immigration control is related to this, but it is hard to know
where to start or stop in the discussion of why so many
people leave their home countries.
"There's no point giving up your meat and your car, recycling your rubbish and producing lots of children."
What unrecycled rubbish! Even with conservative estimates
most Western families could double their birthrate if meat,
a car or three, and huge houses were not considered essential.
And if you consider each person not just to be a resource
consumer but also a contributer to society - a larger
population raised to respect the environment (instead of
stripping it) would be invaluable.
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» What weird logic . . .
Posted by: Moonray
» What an ad hominem response...
Posted by: jparsons
» RE: What weird logic . . .
Posted by: Intellect
» Cool, we've now got religion and abortion in this thread. It should last forever! :-)
Posted by: jparsons
» pfft!
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» RE: Not a convincing premise...
Posted by: leafsong1
» EXACTLY
Posted by: swells
» Mixing arguments here...
Posted by: jparsons
» RE: Mixing arguments here...
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Not a convincing premise...
Posted by: leerhok
Comments are closed-
Posted by: El Hombre Malo on Sep 12, 2007 2:32 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
On one hand, you have the basical equation; if one person=B pollution and resource depletion, Xpersons= XB, so we better try drop X below 1 or at least keep it there. The famous zero growth. But since western developed population already near those margins (just 5 years ago, Spain was under 1.5 children per woman), the burden falls on developing countries, right?
But what are we exactly demanding from them? Developing countries traditionally have a bigger rural population than those already developed. What many see as cultural proclivity to "overbreeding" is actually an economical response to their needs. With little or no public care systems avaliable, the sick and old depend on large families to survive, because a small one wont be able to provide and care for them when needed. You need a bigger family workforce to provide for what we take for granted in the developed world, mainly health care and education. Higher education, seen as the only way out of that cycle, is possible for most families only if there are already a few sons and daughters working and providing, to allow the younger members to be un-productive while he study.
China is now struggling to support people who are getting to an age where they cant fend for themselves but lack the family net they would have had just a few generations ago. But at least China had public education and health care when they enforced their groth control policies. But what happens in many latinoamerican countries, where decades of IMF "recomendations" have rendered their public safenets useless? Population control would lead to misery of many communities. Misery of Dickens-ian proportions.
And all the while, while they make that sacrifice for the better of all mankind, they would see how their resources are still getting depleted, because our zero-growth, already-developed society, prefers them to suffer rather than limit its own lifestyle. ...why do I find so hard to believe they would find it fair?
And the fun fact is, presently, a childless american couple consume and polute more than any 8 member rural family from a developing country. But hey, let's stop them from becoming too many.
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» RE: BS
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: BS
Posted by: El Hombre Malo
» Get your facts straight
Posted by: Whitecliff
» RE: Get your facts straight
Posted by: El Hombre Malo
» RE: Get your facts straight
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Get your facts straight
Posted by: El Hombre Malo
» RE: Get your facts straight
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Hell, just imagine what it will be like when they...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: BS
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Back up your "fact".
Posted by: Janet4784
» BS on top of BS
Posted by: pacplyer
Comments are closed-
» RE: Should the McCann's access the fund?
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: I don't 'underdtand'...could YOU explain it to me?
Posted by: jimidee
Comments are closed-
Posted by: akai ringo on Sep 12, 2007 3:54 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» I agree with it.
Posted by: heid
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Posted by: JDBishop5 on Sep 12, 2007 4:24 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Economics upside down
Posted by: DeeOhGee
» RE: That is why...
Posted by: jimidee
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Posted by: Davidco on Sep 12, 2007 4:26 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Working for justice in the international economy is the most effective tool for population control. If predatory internatinal corporations and their imperial political puppets could be restrained by the world community from pillaging the developing nations, immigation issues and population issues would evaporate.
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» RE: conomic justice is the answer
Posted by: leafsong1
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Posted by: davescott on Sep 12, 2007 4:48 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» 400 million citizens
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: 400 million citizens
Posted by: leerhok
» RE: population and the environment
Posted by: jmp3954
Comments are closed-
Posted by: dwegowy on Sep 12, 2007 5:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Already There
Posted by: loril
» RE: Already There
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: Already There
Posted by: mmqc
» RE: Already There
Posted by: gonnaBsic
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Perko on Sep 12, 2007 5:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Finally...
Posted by: dwegowy
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Posted by: Erik1968 on Sep 12, 2007 5:38 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Too many brown people, too many poor people, too many hungry people...wrong, wrong, wrong.
My cell phone charger wastes more carbon than most of the worlds people do. Alternet's servers probably use more energy than sub-saharan africa.
Kill the rich, and our carbon problems are solved. There are too many of SOME people, that's for sure. Too many of US, the rich bloated plutocrats, who can afford to waste money on ridiculous "organic" manufactured breakfast cereal.
Fight against global warming and for clean air and water, but please don't talk about sterilizing the poor, or killing the unpopularly-colored.
If we start a concentrated bombing campaign at Whole Foods and Trader Joe's, we can probably meet the Kyoto benchmarks within the year. Wouldn't that be better?
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» RE: Too Many Brown People?
Posted by: cmaciain
» Please read the article before commenting next time.
Posted by: KeepsonTickn
» RE: Please read the article before commenting next time.
Posted by: leerhok
» RE: Please read the article before commenting next time.
Posted by: pacplyer
» RE: Too Many Brown People?
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Too Many Brown People?
Posted by: leafsong1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pdxstudent on Sep 12, 2007 5:55 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is the point, then, of this "don't target the brown people" rhetoric simply that they must stay starving brown people in developing nations? If not, then you HAVE to address the problems their burgeoning populations present not just the world but themselves too.
This faux-concern for the booming populations of developing nations is precisely the bullshit that flows forth from the mouths of those preaching "tolerance"---tolerance precisely at the expense of those who we are tolerating.
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» Sub-Saharans Africans and other Indigenous Peoples Will be the Survivors
Posted by: Whitecliff
» More than A Caveat
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Sub-Saharans Africans and other Indigenous Peoples Will be the Survivors
Posted by: pacplyer
Comments are closed-
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Sep 12, 2007 6:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think the animals of the planet probably think there are too many of us. Especially 1st worlders.
We blame it on the 3rd worlders but one conscious eco-groovy American individual consumes / pollutes more in 1 day than a 3rd worlder does in a month...
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» RE: Primates, Cetaceans, and Polar Bears, oh my!!
Posted by: fferris
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Sep 12, 2007 6:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's not pointless to the suffering, tortured, and slaughtered animals....
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» Animals don't suffer
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: Pointless to cut out meat?
Posted by: UCSD90
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Logic's Edge on Sep 12, 2007 6:56 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Western nations would not be doing so badly with their lower than replacement birth rates. Unfortunately, their populations continue to grow due to unwise (okay, insane, from a long term point of view) immigration policies even while their environmental problems increase.
The real "baby factories" are in Asia and that's where the problem most desperately needs to be addressed.
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» The real baby factories are in Africa and South Asia
Posted by: janvdb
» RE: Yes
Posted by: leafsong1
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Posted by: tomkara on Sep 12, 2007 7:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Some of you must be dreaming
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: Some of you must be dreaming
Posted by: leerhok
Comments are closed-
Posted by: CASF.MSRB on Sep 12, 2007 7:30 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Freudian HIVE Predators
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» RE: It's the lifestyle, stupid!
Posted by: leerhok
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Posted by: danielgeery on Sep 12, 2007 8:06 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Final solution!
Posted by: leerhok
Comments are closed-
» RE: Madeleine can have an abortion but let's get REAL.
Posted by: prairiedog
» RE: Madeleine can have an abortion but let's get REAL.
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
Comments are closed-
Posted by: EJW on Sep 12, 2007 8:16 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Each of these sects seems to be trying to 'out-populate' the rest of the world. It's about power and control, not about saving souls and it disgusts me.
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» The 800 lb Gorilla
Posted by: crazy carlos
» RE: The 800 lb Gorilla
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: eligion
Posted by: phatkhat
» RE: eligion
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
Comments are closed-
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 12, 2007 9:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: ASONS FOR OVERPOPULATION VARY
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: ASONS FOR OVERPOPULATION VARY
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: ASONS FOR OVERPOPULATION VARY
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: ASONS FOR OVERPOPULATION VARY
Posted by: Intellect
» RE: ASONS FOR OVERPOPULATION VARY
Posted by: Basenjis
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line on Sep 12, 2007 9:44 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: I have a complaint..imagine that..
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Sep 12, 2007 10:00 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Fundies of all stripes are welcome to their personal religion(s). I don't need it, thanks.
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Posted by: Suzon on Sep 12, 2007 10:03 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Even then they might be made good use of in some way.
Perhaps as replacements for animal testing.
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Posted by: vertical on Sep 12, 2007 10:17 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here is something I would like comments on: If somneone has been convicted of a felony that victomized a child why should they be able to retain their reproductive rights?
In this country we will imprison you if you have done something wrong, and we may even put you to death if you did something really wrong, but it would be wrong to take someone's reproductive rights away from them. They let Ted Bundy marry and father a child while he was sitting on death row, and the woman that gave birth to his daughter was a releated to one of his victoms. Is that not kind of sick? Would you want to be Ted's daughter?
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» RE: All the world's problems
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» All the world's problems
Posted by: EJW
» RE: All the world's problems
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» The courts
Posted by: vertical
» RE: The courts
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: BobbieP on Sep 12, 2007 10:21 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Ambrose Pare on Sep 12, 2007 10:34 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I want clean air, clean rivers, peace and quiet, and tons of space. I want lots of animals to hunt, and tons of natural resources. I want my lakes and creeks packed with fish.
The world is a pie and we all get a slice, the more people, the smaller the slices we all get. I'm selfish, I'm a horrible person I don't care. I don't care about what the world can support. I only care about quality of life. And the quality of life goes down as the population exceeds its optimum.
So do what China has done. Who cares that we denied someone from becoming another single mommy.
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» RE: Cut the excuses
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Because
Posted by: WhatNow?
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Posted by: sofla100 on Sep 12, 2007 10:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Over-Population is Encouraged by the USA
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: Over-Population is Encouraged by the USA
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Over-Population is Encouraged by the USA
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
Comments are closed-
Posted by: MTguy on Sep 12, 2007 10:58 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unless population growth is reined in at some point, disease-war for territory-natural disasters will come into play in keeping our numbers down whether we like it or not.
The other side of the coin is medicine is doing all it can to extend our life spans. Unfortunately this is the time in life when doing that prolonging takes more resources than it does to keep a young person going.
Finally, consumption level - we can't have it all and sustain ourselves as a species on this planet. We consume far, far more than we need to live and that is going to come back to bite us right in the you-know-where.
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» RE: Overpopulation... the ticking time bomb
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
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Posted by: mmqc on Sep 12, 2007 12:15 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: We live in a terrarium!
Posted by: jesme
» RE: We live in a terrarium!
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Gaubladt on Sep 12, 2007 12:18 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: gerdhansel on Sep 12, 2007 12:25 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the end, the perennial Clancy hero John Clark and his sidekick “Ding” Chavez save the day, catching those evil tree huggers in the Brazilian rain forest. Clark and his band of Deltas and SAS volunteers force those Granola-crunchers to strip naked. In a terse farewell, Clark tells them to have a nice life in the jungle before he abandons them to the company of the jaguars and the piranhas.
Of course this is totally fictional and fanciful, right? I mean, radical Gaia worshippers wouldn’t really plot to treat human beings like plant-destroying viruses and impose some sort of Earth-friendly final solution on homo sapiens, would they?
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» RE: tom clancy wrote a book about this, you know
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: tom clancy wrote a book about this, you know
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: tom clancy wrote a book about this, you know
Posted by: PeterW
» RE: tom clancy wrote a book about this, you know
Posted by: pacplyer
» RE: We can only hope so...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: We can only hope so...
Posted by: Roverton
Comments are closed-
Posted by: drblack on Sep 12, 2007 1:12 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At least have one,two tops so as not to add to the population.
People who have more than two should pay more taxes,and those who have none should get a tax break.
People LOVE to say that as a country gets industrialized population drops. That statement ignores biology...population ALWAYS increases unless natural things like conflict,disease cuts it down.
We do have a good chance of some natural(probably disease) cutting down the human population in the near future.
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» RE: It has to be only one...
Posted by: jimidee
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Posted by: Gravitas on Sep 12, 2007 1:45 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Ironic
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Constitutionalist75 on Sep 12, 2007 1:44 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But many millions of women are NOT free, but forced by the ignorance of medieval church dogma and ambitious husbands to birth "all the children God will allow", which is a hypocritical dictate because greed motivates it, each husband dreaming of a large, wealthy and powerful family, but failing in competition with millions of others, and instead exploited by the agribusiness corporations that need all the cheap labor they can get, and the ever-growing World economy that is crushing and poisoning the Earth for short term profits, regardless of the ecocidal consequences we can see around us if we look.
If we want to survive as a species, we need family planning clinics in every nation where women are gently educated and free to decide when and if to have children. Then, the Earth may return to its natural order and we humans can live in balance with that order and at peace with each other.
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» I totally agree
Posted by: janvdb
» RE: I totally agree
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: I totally agree
Posted by: Basenjis
Comments are closed-
Posted by: janvdb on Sep 12, 2007 1:57 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We need to reduce our consumption, cut back on our pollution AND REDUCE OUR BIRTHRATE.
Jan VanDenBerg
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» faith in freedom
Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: FINALLLY someone has the balls to state the obvious
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: FINALLLY someone has the balls to state the obvious
Posted by: NoKidding
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Sep 12, 2007 2:05 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» It's not just energy. It's water, soil and sinks to dump our trash and carbon dioxide
Posted by: janvdb
» RE: The World has too many people who dont give a...
Posted by: jesme
» RE: The World has too many people who dont give a...
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: The World has too many people who dont give a...
Posted by: jesme
» RE: The World has too many people who dont give a...
Posted by: pacplyer
» RE: The World has too many people who dont give a...
Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: The World has too many people who dont give a...
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Its the ecology...stupid!
Posted by: jimidee
Comments are closed-
Posted by: janvdb on Sep 12, 2007 2:14 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Almost all the posters (except me) attack the writer like he were cheering Bin Ladin.
The commenters here are far more supportive of the idea that population growth is a problem we need to talk about and address.
Interesting difference. Are Slate readers that much more conservative than Alternet readers?
Jan VanDenBerg
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» RE: Slate readers disagree
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jesme on Sep 12, 2007 2:53 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seriously, how can you take this nonsense seriously? The industrialized world, and much of the developing world, is heading for a population bust, with birthrates plunging all over the place. Russia, Japan, most of Europe, are actually losing population. If it goes too far, entire cultures are liable to disappear. I thought people around here were big fans of preserving indigenous cultures. Surely Japan counts...
The only hope for many countries is to get people having more babies, not fewer. It's also the best way of tidying up the environment, if the births are coupled with solid economic growth and good education.
Sorry folks, but I just don't see my fellow humans as the problem. They're really the solution. And if you don't agree with me...well, you can just go hang! :-)
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» RE: Too funny
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» Too stupid
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Too stupid
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: Too stupid
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Too stupid
Posted by: jesme
» RE: Too stupid
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Too stupid
Posted by: jesme
» RE: Too stupid
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: You guys can't see the forest for the trees!
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Too stupid
Posted by: leafsong1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Sep 12, 2007 3:30 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We can sustain a large population only if we enlarge our understanding of just what we are in this life. We need to raise our respect for eachother,the Planet and learn the concept of shared responsibility for all living things.
Draft Jeffrey7 for Prez
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» RE: It's not population,it's about consideration and respect.
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: It's not population,it's about consideration and respect.
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: It's about balance...
Posted by: jimidee
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Posted by: leafsong1 on Sep 12, 2007 3:54 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The people there can never go
a house of steel without a door
and we're stuck here forever more
Don't believe everything you see on TV
Don't you know Star Trek mey never be
and if the little green men really roam
what if they came knocking and found nobody home?
We all live in a house of steel.
Hey, it's no big deal, but,
we ALL must live in this house of steel
The world's got enough of population
There's no more time for hesitation
Gotta spread the word to all the nations
ain't nothin wrong with masturbation
and if you feel the need for penitence,
there ain't nothing wrong with abstinence
and I don't know what you believe,
but it ain't no sin to contracieve.
If you've got one coming and you've got two,
well I don;t know what you should do
but if you ask me for my point of view,
I 'd say hey, it's your body it's up to you
And if you feel the need to copulate
with a similarly gendered human mate
Well, if half of mankind shared your fate
then every child would have food on a plate.
'Cause we all live in a house of steel.
Hey, it's no big deal, but,
we ALL must live in this house of steel
All through the chains of history
they told us how it ought to be
but now we look around and see
we gotta give it back and set it free
We all live in a house of steel.
Hey, it's no big deal, but,
we ALL must live in this house of steel
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Posted by: Jersey Devil on Sep 12, 2007 6:17 PM
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Posted by: makewaves on Sep 12, 2007 6:56 PM
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» RE: Population
Posted by: Intellect
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Posted by: lacamila on Sep 12, 2007 7:41 PM
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» RE: Society pressures people to procreate.
Posted by: NoKidding
» RE: Society pressures people to procreate.
Posted by: luzmejor
» I TOTALLY agree with all three posters here
Posted by: janvdb
» RE: I TOTALLY agree with all three posters here
Posted by: demidesigrrl
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Posted by: Whitecliff on Sep 12, 2007 8:57 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are some things that could be done. Making birth control pills and condoms freely available for all is one. Also, educating people as to the necessity of controlling the population for the future of planet Earth is key. What is needed nowadays is "crisis rhetoric"...sound the alarms, ring the bells, and blow the whistles -- WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF TIME-SPACE-RESOURCES AS A SPECIES UNLESS SOMETHING IS DONE SOON!
Some form of peaceful, legal, community accepted suicide for the very old-sick-infirm is also a partial solution. In the past, suicide was almost always a phenomenon found overwhelmingly amongst senior citizens that had "overlived their usefulness" -- this might seem barabric to some, but there does come a point when many senior citizens to become a 'drain on the system' so to speak. I fully respect all life, but there comes a point when it is just time to throw in the towel and let the younger generation take over.
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» You are damaging the push for population control by mixing it with this nutty euthenasia stuff
Posted by: janvdb
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Posted by: vasumurti on Sep 12, 2007 11:45 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In her 1971 bestseller, Diet for a Small Planet, Frances Moore Lappe pointed out that it takes 16 pounds of grain to produce one pound of beef.
Ronald J. Sider, in his 1977 book, Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger, pointed out that 220 million Americans were eating enough food (largely because of the high consumption of grain-fed livestock) to feed over one billion people in the poorer countries.
In his 1977 essay, "Can Britain Feed Itself?", Professor Kenneth Mellanby stated that Britain, which then had a population of 50 million, could support a population of 250 million on a vegetarian diet.
In her 1979 book, What's Wrong with Eating Meat?, Barbara Parham writes:
"...there is no correlation between land density and hunger. China has twice as may people per cultivated acre as India, yet less of a hunger problem. Bangladesh has just one-half the people per cultivated acre that Taiwan has, yet Taiwan has no starvation, while Bangladesh has one of the highest rates in the world. The most densely populated countries in the world today are not India and Bangladesh, but Holland and Japan."
In his 1986 UK bestseller, Why You Don't Need Meat, Peter Cox writes:
"Oxfam, the international charity, reports that in Brazil huge cattle ranches take up some of the most fertile soil in the whole country, yet 60 percent of Brazilians are malnourished.
"Oxfam estimates that in Mexico, 80 percent of the children in rural areas are undernourished, yet the livestock are fed more grain than the human population eats! The livestock are exported, of course, to satisfy the developed nations' craving for cheap hamburgers."
In his 1987 Pulitzer Prize nominated Diet for a New America, John Robbins writes:
"The livestock population of the United States today consumes enough grain and soybeans to feed over five times the entire human population of the country. We feed these animals over 80% of the corn we grow, and over 95% of the oats. Less than half the harvested agricultural acreage is used to grow food for people. Most of it is used to grow livestock feed."
The threat of overpopulation is frequently used to justify abortion as birth control. On a vegetarian diet, however, the world could easily support a population several times its present size. The world's cattle alone consume enough to feed over 8.7 billion humans.
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» RE: "Feeding" the humans is only a small part of the equation...
Posted by: jimidee
» Grass-fed beef used up no human food
Posted by: janvdb
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Posted by: leerhok on Sep 12, 2007 11:49 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The ecological damage man produces is not the sole product of the number of people but the product of people X standard of living. That's why a person in England and the US contributes many times more than a person in Bangladesh to global ecology breakdown.
The plain fact is that China's one-kid-family has already saved the world from disaster. Just imagine if 1.5 billion Chinese had produced offspring like Catholics and Muslims!
It is also a plain fact that China's present development towards Western standard of living will kill life on earth long before all their inhabitants have reached that goal.
Is it not high time man asks himself whether he hasn't reached the limit of being the dominant animal on earth with fatal consequences for all other living things on the planet? Does man know that when he has succeeded in making life on earth impossible he himself is not going to live on? Does he know that all cancers die together with their victims?
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Sep 13, 2007 1:50 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
earth. Have the Star Wars, Star Trek and other SciFi movies
taught you nothing? The Space Elevator used to be science
fiction, but now there is a serious attempt to build it. There is a
new frontier and we HAVE to go there. It is Space, the high and
infinite frontier. Take a look at the space elevator at
www.liftport.com. Also take a look at the "Cosmological
Forecast" at jetpress.org/volume12/CosmologicalForecast.htm.
According to the Cosmological Forecast, for every century we
delay the onset of Galactic colonization, there will be 5 times 10
exponent 46 fewer human lifetimes between now and the time the
galaxy dies. That is 5 followed by 46 "0"s. Our population
explosion may be allowed to continue as long as it happens in
space, not on earth. The solar system as a whole can support 10
times as many people as earth alone. [If we build a Dyson
Sphere, the multiple is much larger.] Once we have filled the
solar system, we can move on to the Centauri Cluster. We should
even take enough people off of the earth to reduce the population
of earth. Note that evolution will occur. Space is a harsh place
where stupidity will be rewarded with instant death.
Check out http://lifeboat.com. Some of us are working on
surviving in space while the rest of you undergo your ecological
disaster. We can repopulate earth much later.
We have to colonize space for another reason. In only 33,000
years, Proxima Centauri, a red dwarf star, will enter our Oort
Cloud, causing a period of "Heavy Bombardment." Earth will be
struck by giant impactors like the one that killed the dinosaurs
unless we humans are out there preventing it. We are the only
possible defenders Mother Earth can hope for. We have to do it.
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» RE: That is cute!
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: That is cute!
Posted by: leerhok
» RE: Outside the box
Posted by: leafsong1
» Ridiculous and a dangerous distraction
Posted by: janvdb
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Posted by: markie on Sep 13, 2007 3:13 AM
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» RE: markie
Posted by: leerhok
» RE: markie
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» RE: markie
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
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Posted by: jimidee on Sep 13, 2007 6:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a 30 year carreer employee with EPA, I see over-population at the root of every social and environmental problem we have. Name one that isn't directly or indirectly caused by it. Just one. I also see that our "solutions" are what we call in the inductry, end-of-pipe solutions. This gets its name from the waste water treatment industry, but is appropriate for all types of end-of-cycle solutions. It is easier to prevent pollution than it is to treat it after it is released into the environment. It's the same thing for population pollution.
With our over-population problem, we can do it the easy way or the hard way, but in the end it WILL be done. We can take bold and necessary actions to curb our numbers (easy way) or we can wait around a few years and disease, famine, global warming, war and other anti-social behavior resulting from overcrowded conditions to do it for us (hard way). It is going to get pretty ugly for our kids and grandkids, let's face it.
The Earth will cleans itself of this population infection (which is us) if we do not take charge of it ourselves. Take a look at a petri dish with a bacteria growing on it and then take a look at a satellite view of the Earth and see the similarities in appearance. There are clusters of bacteria all over the medium in the dish, just like on the surface of the Earth. Coincidence? I think not.
Religion has been and will continue to be the primary force that prevents most folks from actively participating in any reduction plan, as somehow people think God wants them to have as many babies as they can. The more fundamental the religion, the more babies each woman produces...it is in the data. It is not just a Vatican issue either, as the typical Islamic woman in the middle east produces over 8 children per. This thinking may have been a successful survival strategy a few years ago before modern medicine and technology reduced death rates significantly, but it is no longer needed and in fact, is unconscionable.
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» RE: But I want ba-bies!
Posted by: leerhok
» RE: TRUE
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: But I want ba-bies!
Posted by: SolitonMan
» We must change attitudes, we must at least try
Posted by: truthteller
» RE: You are to be commended for your sprog-free choice...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: We must change attitudes, we must at least try
Posted by: NoKidding
» With computer dating, the child-free needn't be spouse-free anymore
Posted by: janvdb
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Posted by: cognitorex on Sep 13, 2007 11:33 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.
The first sentence of the second paragraph from "How to deal with a falling population", (The Economist, 7/26/07), is as follows;
"Overcrowding and a shortage of resources constrain bug populations. The reasons for the growth of the human population may be different, but the pattern may be surprisingly similar."
What a wonderful article, setting the scientific/historical time line for sustainable population growth. It also, of course, sets the hysterical time line when Women Rights' advocates started their misdirected, dare I say, clamoring for change.
Actually, as this article points out, certainly by inference, the change to having fewer children had already occurred and women were fit to be tied because nature was calling to them to react to (not create) such change.
I get special pleasure out of the article because (including writing a play on the subject in 1973) I have held for years that the so-called Women's Liberation movement was quite simply the natural formation of a 'collective unconscious' among women that baby making had been demoted. In effect women did not and were not choosing liberation. Nature had 'liberated' them in order for earth to achieve human population/resource homeostasis.
Consider this quote from the article which reduces the entirety of womens' natural reproductive options and the intellectual underpinnings of the Womens Rights Movement to a few simple choices:
"If women decide to spend their 20s clubbing rather than child-rearing, and their cash on handbags rather than diapers, that's up to them. But the transition to a lower population can be a difficult one........"
Looking back from this perspective, in the now, one wonders what was all the fuss really about?
Disclaimer: I believe passionately that women did not enact the liberation they so passionately espoused. They were liberated, as in less responsibilities and more free time, by the nature mandated necessity to have fewer children. I think a substantial portion of the theory of Womern's Lib is false. The steps called for post-liberation to achieve equality and fairness were and are valid.
Craig Johnson
Labels: collective unconscious, earth's resources, explosion, homeostasis, liberation, cognitorex blog, population, womens rights
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Posted by: fox1 on Sep 13, 2007 2:55 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: I vote that we...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: I vote that we...
Posted by: fox1
» We need better morons
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: HUH?
Posted by: drblack
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Posted by: fox1 on Sep 13, 2007 3:06 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ROVE-CHANEY IN 08!
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» RE: TO MADELINE BUNTING.......
Posted by: drblack
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Posted by: Ullern on Sep 13, 2007 5:35 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As one species expands (like Homo sapiens sapiens, doubling population in one generation - 1965: 3.3 bn - 2005: 6.5 bn), the population of other species are pressed to oblivion.
Nothing strange about that.
Rather it's a natural law within the limited set of the Biosphere which we can't overturn (- at least there’s one law Bush can’t rescind...).
So to limit extinction of other species the only way is to limit our own expansion. Like it or not. It amounts to impossible to both eating and keeping our "cake", i.e. our living-environment ("can't have your cake and eat it too").
Every child born expanding human population amounts to a deliberate collective human choice to decrease other species in the Biosphere. Unless someone works out how to expand the Earth’s Biosphere (very unlikely), that’s how it is and will be.
Choose.
A planned downscaling (or even stagnation at first) of human population is necessary to harmonize humanity with our premises in the living Biosphere. With population increase every other disharmony with our surrounding environment also increases.
I hear the claims: "Earth can sustain 9 -12 bn people - if only people act rationally and don't fight". But people can't act rationally in that sense, particularly not when crowded, pushed and squeezed. And that's the only rational way to think about the issue. So, collectively deliberate population control is the only alternative to indeliberate control in the forms of war, famine, pestilence and other kinds of needless death.
But many humans - and particularly the billion of us on the net - benefit from a surplus population ("surplus" in the sense of expendable people willing to do ofr fill any kind of unpleasant task to survive). Limiting population has the same kind of "inconvenient" downside as any other environ-mental issue: it means limiting ourselves. Including my self.
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» RE: YES - OUR PLANET HAS FAR TOO MANY PEOPLE FOR COMFORT
Posted by: leafsong1
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Posted by: ldasteelworker on Sep 13, 2007 9:29 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Our civilization continues to behave like so much bacteria in a Petri dish with respect to population, resources, and pollution -- (a standard bell-shaped population curve).
The fact is, the more people living unsustainably on our planet, the greater the impacts in resource depletion and pollution are... How much the world can actually handle without reaching catastrophic tipping-points can be debated but eventually there is an end-point that we will reach.
We have unleashed the deregulated viral form of global corporate power upon the planet to consume whatever humans, governments, or resources that stand in the way of increasing their power and profit. Now there's a population that needs to be controlled!
Our current generation, with few exceptions, has been gamed into "reality" television zombies that really do not care about anything or themselves for that matter.
The situation is grim indeed: exponential population; armed conflicts over resources; rampant use of fossil fuel energy; destruction of the commons; and pollution of our air, food, water, genome, and politics to mention a few of my favorite things...
The real question is whether or not we can overcome the political, religious, economic, social, and corporate obstacles that currently stand our way that prohibit rapid change and progress towards a real sustainable and progressive civilization and society.
Can we change from our current course toward ultimate economic and environmental collapse? Are we really more intelligent than a culture of bacteria? I would like to think so -- the ways to change are already known to us, but so far we haven't proven that!
Of course we may have already solved any over population questions via "Better Infertility Through Chemistry" as endocrine-disrupting chemical pollution is proving to work wonders in this area... ;(
See Also:
( http://www.chicagopublicradio.org/Program_WV_Series.aspx ); Click on: "End of the World"; Click on: "Better Infertility Through Chemistry".
( http://www.ourstolenfuture.com/index.htm )
The book: 'Our Stolen Future' brought world-wide attention to scientific discoveries about endocrine disruption and the fact that common contaminants can interfere with the natural signals controlling development of the fetus.
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Posted by: Whitecliff on Sep 13, 2007 10:05 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Because of corporate (mass) farming, topsoil is being depleted VERY quickly...when the pioneers in America first settled the Midwest the topsoil there was basically virginal, sometimes 2 or 3 feet thick of beautifully fertile, untouched soil. Now, there isn't much left in many of these places (because of bad farming methods and erosion mostly) and the crops we all enjoy so cheaply are sustained only through extensive use of chemical fertilizers and the like.
Desertification is also a major problem in areas where all of the topsoil has eroded due to poor farming methods and human-caused erosion. It takes approximately 500 years for one inch of topsoil to be deposited, but there are approx. 25 billion tons of topsoil lost each year.
Also, prime farmland and pastureland is being developed and paved over at an unsustainable rate -- once the developers and construction people 'level the land' out to lay foundations for buildings and install pipes and such that prime topsoil is basically gone forever since it takes hundreds or thousands of years to form a good layer of fertile/arable topsoil, while it only takes an afternoon on a bulldozer to wipe it all out. Sadly, once this fertile soil it is lost it will never come back.
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» RE: The topsoil issue & overpopulation
Posted by: vasumurti
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Posted by: denisaf on Sep 13, 2007 10:30 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: jparsons on Sep 13, 2007 10:57 PM
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How funny this should happen right now - shows where some
of the real world powers are with respect to population control.
I.e. "for somebody else, please"
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Posted by: Jeff Hoffman on Sep 14, 2007 4:59 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Environmentalists who claim that "the pressure on the earth's resources - its water, forests, soil fertility - and carbon emissions are all about consumption and lifestyle, not about sheer numbers of human beings" are ecologically uninformed, to put it diplomatically. Any animal, especially modern humans, that overpopulates destroys its environment, which leads to its own starvation. Unfortunately for the rest of the planet, humans have figured out how to circumvent these natural controls, so the Earth now suffers from extreme human overpopulation in addition to all the other harms that humans have been causing since the inception of civilization.
The problem with getting human population reduced is that aside from killing people, the only way to do it is birth control. Our bodies, like those of all animals, tell us to procreate as much as possible. When most children died before reaching breeding age and many mothers died in childbirth, having as many children as possible simply maintained the same population. But once we discovered agriculture and settled down, there was no need to have as many children. Unfortunately, in the 10-12,000 years since that discovery, humans have either not figured out that they need to limit the size of their families or they just don't care. Either way, statements like "government campaigns on the unattractiveness of parenthood" would be 'batty" simply show that humans have still not come to the realization that there are far too many of us and we need to start reducing our numbers.
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» RE: Twin Roots Of Environmental Harms
Posted by: vasumurti
» I am perhaps optimistic...
Posted by: jparsons
» RE: I am perhaps optimistic...
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
» I am certainly astonished!
Posted by: jparsons
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Posted by: Betsy L. Angert on Sep 16, 2007 6:58 PM
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I thank you for this discussion. For quite some time, I have expressed this concern. If we look at human waste alone, we understand. We suffocate this planet with most every move.
We speak of energy consumption; although we do little wholeheartedly to change what we accept as a hazard to the health of Mother Nature. Most live blindly. They trust the powers that be will take care of what they do not. Yet, these mega-forces, corporate and government profit from the status-quo.
Instead of living for the Seventh Generation, we trust that seven generations from now, someone will do what we dare not attempt.
I pen much on the environment. Yet, with each inscription I acknowledge as long as people have babies, in error, or with a desire to see what their genes might produce, we will not reduce the damage that mankind has wrought on this planet.
For me, the discussion is similar to the theories Thomas Paine espoused.
"In order to gain a clear and just idea of the design and end of government, let us suppose a small number of persons settled in some sequestered part of the earth, unconnected with the rest; they will then represent the first peopling of any country, or of the world. In this state of natural liberty, society will be their first thought.
A thousand motives will excite them thereto; the strength of one man is so unequal to his wants, and his mind so unfitted for perpetual solitude, that he is soon obliged to seek assistance and relief of another, who in his turn requires the same."
We must work together for the commonweal. Laws are meant to benefit the whole. They are not intended to harm the few.
I invite your thoughts on essays that I think may speak to this topic. We, worldwide, and particularly in America, consume and consume. We overpopulate the planet so that others might serve our needs, or so that we might have what we want regardless, of the effect on mother Earth.
Mother Earth; The Human Virus
Capitalism; Competitive Markets Cut To The Core; Inequity Is Inevitable
Betsy L. Angert
BeThink.org
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Posted by: mike_burns on Sep 17, 2007 4:59 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seven thousand years later-
And God said, Mission Accomplished.
Please, let the Vatican know.
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Posted by: gonnaBsic on Sep 18, 2007 1:41 PM
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Posted by: WAUB on Sep 18, 2007 9:01 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we are to understand the future of energy, we know already that energy availability will drastically reduce in "developed" nations (such a sad misnomer) and further reduce in "developing" countries. That means more reliance on solar energy to provide biomass (predominantly required for food). I'm certain there are some clear energy-to-population ratios for food and resource cultivation. I suspect that a balance of population to energy production still leaves much room for large populations. The energy consumed via conventional photosynthetic food production is the energy for life. The energy consumed for this kind of food is a positive feedback loop because it encourages and enables (particularly when advanced methods of organic cultivation are used) the conditions for recycling of water to a state of cleanliness and usefulness, encourages the absorption of pollutants, and promotes a diversity of useful biomass. The future will require lots of people to be engaged in food production.
Cuba is an amazing example of how this works. If the world could simply come to terms with the need to integrate technology and what little hydrocarbon resources we still have to increase our biomass production, it's likely that population in and of itself would not be as threatening as it might now appear.
The future of the planet will now be decided between oil peak and climate change; when either or both arrive, surprising and dramatic reductions in population will result. There's no way around this. We could certainly lessen the impact if we took steps now to mitigate our increasing population. The future will be the test of our notions of civilization, evolution, and culture. To date, we have behaved - despite our technology and mythologies - much like animals. Humans are still more reactionary than anticipatory. So let the population discussion continue.
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Posted by: IPF on Sep 19, 2007 12:36 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Probably because back then the estimates were that by 2020 there would be 20 billion people, then that became 15 billion a few years later, then 10 billion. Well guess what? Now the forecasts are that we will peak at about 6.5Billion, sooo...
I guess the pressure is off that strawman.
But let's face it, the whole "there's too many people on earth" argument stems from a completely elitist view - "hey, I don't want my sh_t taken... stop the growth!!!" just another of the holier than thou leftist progressive (yeah right-that's an oxymoron) view of a perfect world.
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» RE: You sound like a junky...
Posted by: jimidee
Trial Begins for Activist Who Fought to Protect Federal Lands from Drilling -- Join the Protest
California Carbon Trading Allows Timber Companies to Sell CO2 Credits for Their Worst Logging Practices
How to Answer the Dumb Things Climate Deniers Say




