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Environment

Does Our Planet Have Too Many People?

By Madeleine Bunting, Comment Is Free. Posted September 12, 2007.


Reducing consumption is imperative, but it's pointless to cut out meat and cars while having lots of children.
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It's the one issue no environmentalist organisation wants to talk about. Population. Thirty years ago, when international concern first began to mobilize about the planet's future, it was the pre-eminent question, but now you're hard put to get a straight answer. Does the UK need population management? Does the world need it?

This is one of those issues that is regarded by many privately as common sense but rarely gets a public airing. Of the environmental organizations I managed to contact, all acknowledged that it was frequently brought up by the public in meetings and letters. Yet all said they did not campaign on the subject and had no position on it. It seems that there is a worrying disconnect between a generally accepted consensus among those who shape the national conversation about the environment and their audiences, who either are much less certain or believe that, if the planet's resources are being grossly depleted, there are just too many of us about.

Too many people. That is certainly the impression from studying the maps published this week by the Campaign to Protect Rural England, which chart how fast the areas of the country undisturbed by urban development, roads or other noise are disappearing. Since the 60s, whole chunks of England have been broken up into small fragments, absorbed into a dense network of towns, cities and major roads.

The maps reinforce what people experience. You try getting away from it all in England, and you are tangled in traffic jams, shoe-horned into campsites, followed by the whine of motor-bikes and the roar of traffic even up on the hills. We live in a crowded island - a truth that it has become unacceptable to acknowledge because of the unpleasant associations it brings with it.

But England is now the second most densely populated country in Europe, after Belgium, and at current rates of increase it could be second only to Bangladesh in the world by 2074. There are those who argue that there's no need for alarm, and that we can concentrate development in brownfield sites to accommodate all the millions of extra homes needed. But how many more people can you squeeze into cities that already seem to be choking under the weight of their population density - the buses and trains packed, the streets clogged and the parks on a Sunday afternoon teeming with people.

It's not surprising that environmental organizations fight shy of getting into this subject. It embroils them in a host of deeply emotive and difficult debates. Immigration for one. Most of the UK population growth in the next few decades will be attributable to immigration. Should we have a balanced migration policy with a net zero increase? Given how many British-born are emigrating to Australia, the US, Spain and France, it would still allow us to maintain our international responsibilities to provide asylum. But it wouldn't allow us to absorb the same quantities of cheap east European labor that have subsidized our economic growth.

Population management is just as emotive. People quickly bristle at the idea of any government telling them how many children they can have. The whole policy area of population was given a bad name by India's enthusiasm in the 70s and 80s when government programs ensnared uncomprehending young men into having vasectomies. But should the UK government pursue a policy of persuasion, a Stop at Two campaign, to bring people's attention to the carbon footprint of having lots of children? If it did, would it work? Internationally, population policy has been crippled by US and Vatican opposition on abortion and contraception. Have they managed to bully environmental organisations into this awkward silence?


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Why this calls for...
Posted by: TT5 on Sep 12, 2007 12:20 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
good old population control:)

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Overpopulation?
Posted by: donl51 on Sep 12, 2007 12:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You want to make the oil,and all other resourses last longer,?forget alterntives,we can use the real mcCoy, Let Bush continue on his path of destruction,change a law or two ,we can have him for a third term and trust me,w/God at his side he'll cut the hell out of this overpopulation we're facing

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» RE: Overpopulation? Posted by: jadresak
» RE: Overpopulation? Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Overpopulation? Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» Overreaction? Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Overpopulation? Posted by: Bladerunner2020
» RE: Overpopulation? Posted by: leerhok
» RE: Overpopulation? Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
» RE: Jeff has the point... Posted by: jimidee
Not a convincing premise...
Posted by: jparsons on Sep 12, 2007 1:04 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Western lifestyles already enforce population control via a number of
interlocking societal norms.
The dropping birth rate in the developed countries is well
documented, as is the comparatively large and increasing footprint of each
such person.

Most environmentalists conclude that simply having fewer people is not enough, and so they
promote sustainable measures as a higher priority.
So the public likes the population control idea? That
indicates an easy and obvious idea, not a sound solution.

Immigration control is related to this, but it is hard to know
where to start or stop in the discussion of why so many
people leave their home countries.

"There's no point giving up your meat and your car, recycling your rubbish and producing lots of children."

What unrecycled rubbish! Even with conservative estimates
most Western families could double their birthrate if meat,
a car or three, and huge houses were not considered essential.

And if you consider each person not just to be a resource
consumer but also a contributer to society - a larger
population raised to respect the environment (instead of
stripping it) would be invaluable.

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» What weird logic . . . Posted by: Moonray
» What an ad hominem response... Posted by: jparsons
» RE: What weird logic . . . Posted by: Intellect
» pfft! Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» RE: Not a convincing premise... Posted by: leafsong1
» EXACTLY Posted by: swells
» Mixing arguments here... Posted by: jparsons
» RE: Mixing arguments here... Posted by: leafsong1
BS
Posted by: El Hombre Malo on Sep 12, 2007 2:32 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem with the overpopulation debate is the many logical quagmires you find yourself in when trying to sort it out.

On one hand, you have the basical equation; if one person=B pollution and resource depletion, Xpersons= XB, so we better try drop X below 1 or at least keep it there. The famous zero growth. But since western developed population already near those margins (just 5 years ago, Spain was under 1.5 children per woman), the burden falls on developing countries, right?

But what are we exactly demanding from them? Developing countries traditionally have a bigger rural population than those already developed. What many see as cultural proclivity to "overbreeding" is actually an economical response to their needs. With little or no public care systems avaliable, the sick and old depend on large families to survive, because a small one wont be able to provide and care for them when needed. You need a bigger family workforce to provide for what we take for granted in the developed world, mainly health care and education. Higher education, seen as the only way out of that cycle, is possible for most families only if there are already a few sons and daughters working and providing, to allow the younger members to be un-productive while he study.

China is now struggling to support people who are getting to an age where they cant fend for themselves but lack the family net they would have had just a few generations ago. But at least China had public education and health care when they enforced their groth control policies. But what happens in many latinoamerican countries, where decades of IMF "recomendations" have rendered their public safenets useless? Population control would lead to misery of many communities. Misery of Dickens-ian proportions.

And all the while, while they make that sacrifice for the better of all mankind, they would see how their resources are still getting depleted, because our zero-growth, already-developed society, prefers them to suffer rather than limit its own lifestyle. ...why do I find so hard to believe they would find it fair?

And the fun fact is, presently, a childless american couple consume and polute more than any 8 member rural family from a developing country. But hey, let's stop them from becoming too many.

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» RE: BS Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: BS Posted by: El Hombre Malo
» Get your facts straight Posted by: Whitecliff
» RE: Get your facts straight Posted by: El Hombre Malo
» RE: Get your facts straight Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Get your facts straight Posted by: El Hombre Malo
» RE: Get your facts straight Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: BS Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Back up your "fact". Posted by: Janet4784
» BS on top of BS Posted by: pacplyer
This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
» RE: Should the McCann's access the fund? Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
I beg to differ on the image of England
Posted by: akai ringo on Sep 12, 2007 3:54 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
An interesting viewpoint, but as far as the presentation of England as a place where you are "tangled in traffic jams, shoe-horned into campsites, followed by the whine of motor-bikes and the roar of traffic even up on the hills", I must beg to differ, at least unless England has changed radically in the last 2 years since I was back there. I did my best to avoid motorways, as we call them in the U.K., mainly because I was driving for pleasure, not just to get from A to B, but by doing so, I was able to drive for hours and hours through pleasant green fields, seeing plenty of sheep and cows, and occasinally passing through a small village or town, but with the very occasional exception, certainly not encountering major blockages. If there is a "population problem" in the U.K., my impression is that. like global food resources, it is a problem of distribution at least as much as, if not more than, one of absolute numbers. And certainly the issue of balanced immigration should be kept separate from that of population control. By trying to couple these, the BNP is indulging in cheap propaganda.

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» I agree with it. Posted by: heid
Not to worry.
Posted by: JDBishop5 on Sep 12, 2007 4:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have waited long enough to do something sensible that nature will now show us her stuff. Population control has already begun and the poor are going to be flushed. By 'poor' I mean everyone who cannot build a large wall around them and theirs high enough to repel the mob. And there will be a mob.

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» Economics upside down Posted by: DeeOhGee
» RE: That is why... Posted by: jimidee
Economic justice is the answer
Posted by: Davidco on Sep 12, 2007 4:26 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The one thing we do know is that family size declines as industrialization and economic development spread through a modernizing society.

Working for justice in the international economy is the most effective tool for population control. If predatory internatinal corporations and their imperial political puppets could be restrained by the world community from pillaging the developing nations, immigation issues and population issues would evaporate.

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population and the environment
Posted by: davescott on Sep 12, 2007 4:48 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a provocative and difficult issue -- made far more sensitive by the right-wing attack on immigration in the US and by the difficulty in defining terms like "sustainability." I have no idea if the world can support 9 billion people as it copes with global warming at the same time, but it seems like one question it would be best not to get an answer to. Having grown up in a US of 175-200 million, I am certain that a nation of 400 million US citizens will not be good for the environment.

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» 400 million citizens Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: 400 million citizens Posted by: leerhok
Already There
Posted by: dwegowy on Sep 12, 2007 5:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My wife (25) and I (30) have already agreed not to have kids -- we'd sooner adopt one of the many parentless children out there -- while we shudder at so many of our peers who are popping out babies as though there is no reason to consider otherwise. Our environmentalism ("carbon offsets"?) are completely negated by most people around us, as are now our 'organic offsets'... We might as well wear t-shirts that read, "at least we tried."

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» RE: Already There Posted by: loril
» RE: Already There Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: Already There Posted by: mmqc
» RE: Already There Posted by: gonnaBsic
Finally...
Posted by: Perko on Sep 12, 2007 5:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've been thinking this for years but it's too politically incorrect to say. There's just too many of us. Finally somebody said it.

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» RE: Finally... Posted by: dwegowy
Too Many Brown People?
Posted by: Erik1968 on Sep 12, 2007 5:38 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's were the "overpopulation" debate always ends up.

Too many brown people, too many poor people, too many hungry people...wrong, wrong, wrong.

My cell phone charger wastes more carbon than most of the worlds people do. Alternet's servers probably use more energy than sub-saharan africa.

Kill the rich, and our carbon problems are solved. There are too many of SOME people, that's for sure. Too many of US, the rich bloated plutocrats, who can afford to waste money on ridiculous "organic" manufactured breakfast cereal.

Fight against global warming and for clean air and water, but please don't talk about sterilizing the poor, or killing the unpopularly-colored.

If we start a concentrated bombing campaign at Whole Foods and Trader Joe's, we can probably meet the Kyoto benchmarks within the year. Wouldn't that be better?

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» RE: Too Many Brown People? Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: Too Many Brown People? Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Too Many Brown People? Posted by: leafsong1
Isn't The Problem...
Posted by: pdxstudent on Sep 12, 2007 5:55 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...not starving developing nations of brown people, but the implications of those nations getting off the ground and consuming as ALL developed nations do? No shit, developed nations consume and pollute more than developing nations.

Is the point, then, of this "don't target the brown people" rhetoric simply that they must stay starving brown people in developing nations? If not, then you HAVE to address the problems their burgeoning populations present not just the world but themselves too.

This faux-concern for the booming populations of developing nations is precisely the bullshit that flows forth from the mouths of those preaching "tolerance"---tolerance precisely at the expense of those who we are tolerating.

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» More than A Caveat Posted by: pdxstudent
Primates, Cetaceans, and Polar Bears, oh my!!
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Sep 12, 2007 6:52 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Primates, Cetaceans, and Polar Bears, oh my!!

I think the animals of the planet probably think there are too many of us. Especially 1st worlders.

We blame it on the 3rd worlders but one conscious eco-groovy American individual consumes / pollutes more in 1 day than a 3rd worlder does in a month...

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Pointless to cut out meat?
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Sep 12, 2007 6:53 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Pointless to cut out meat?
It's not pointless to the suffering, tortured, and slaughtered animals....

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» Animals don't suffer Posted by: Illiteratilumen
Yes
Posted by: Logic's Edge on Sep 12, 2007 6:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are too many people. Instead of measuring it on a global level, though, it should be measured by region.

The Western nations would not be doing so badly with their lower than replacement birth rates. Unfortunately, their populations continue to grow due to unwise (okay, insane, from a long term point of view) immigration policies even while their environmental problems increase.

The real "baby factories" are in Asia and that's where the problem most desperately needs to be addressed.

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» RE: Yes Posted by: leafsong1
Some of you must be dreaming
Posted by: tomkara on Sep 12, 2007 7:29 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those who maintain that economic and social development will be sufficient to bring about declining birthrates fast enough to offset the impending environmental crisis are dreaming. They are, in fact, resorting to the same faulty logic that "the free market will take care of things". Not only is the earth a finite sphere, we are also running out of time - fast. Improvement in the quality of life needed to convince people to have fewer children will never take place fast enough. Clearly we must demand that the first world - the United States in particular - drastically reduce the per capita use of resources. Obviously, we must work for improved social conditions which foster the kind of safety net that offsets the need for children to take care of us, particularly in developing countries. We must also fight against the ignorant viewpoint (often religious/cultural) that birth control is bad. We must demand that anyone who wants to be sterilized voluntarily can do so, for free. All of these measures are "social engineering", also called "thinking rationally". As another poster here has stated, it may already be too late. Nature may take its course, and humankind will pay dearly for the imbalance as it has always done in the past. But we can struggle to stem the tide and reduce the Earth's human population to a sustainable level through means other than mass starvation, disease, and war. To begin this, we first need as this author has done, to acknowledge that overpopulation is a huge problem that requires immediate public discussion and bold proposals.

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» RE: Some of you must be dreaming Posted by: Constitutionalist75
It's the lifestyle, stupid!
Posted by: CASF.MSRB on Sep 12, 2007 7:30 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The “people” aren’t a problem; the problem is the energy intensive “dinosaurs!”
The Freudian HIVE Predators

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Final solution!
Posted by: danielgeery on Sep 12, 2007 8:06 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here is the final solution, and one worth pondering if you haven't already.

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» RE: Final solution! Posted by: leerhok
This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
Religion
Posted by: EJW on Sep 12, 2007 8:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No one has mentioned the role religion has in the above debate specifically the religions of the Book, the Jews, the Christians and the Muslims. I believe that the Catholic church is out front on the whole "be fruitful and muliply" thing.

Each of these sects seems to be trying to 'out-populate' the rest of the world. It's about power and control, not about saving souls and it disgusts me.

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» The 800 lb Gorilla Posted by: crazy carlos
» RE: The 800 lb Gorilla Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: eligion Posted by: phatkhat
» RE: eligion Posted by: Constitutionalist75
REASONS FOR OVERPOPULATION VARY
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 12, 2007 9:33 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People procreate very often out of fear. Any solution for overpopulation anyplace for any reason soon becomes obsolete because the reasons that caused it change. A society cannot control and legislate everything nor should it. Birth control should be available to everyone. As long as land and resources are used wisely, we can survive very well. Deplorable living conditions exist because of other people, usually politicians. There's enough to go around. Anna

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» RE: ASONS FOR OVERPOPULATION VARY Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: ASONS FOR OVERPOPULATION VARY Posted by: Constitutionalist75
I have a complaint..imagine that..
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line on Sep 12, 2007 9:44 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This may not be the place to do this but it is time for me to say it.... I think that even though alternet has a basic policy about what people can post, and removes inappropriate comments, they should keep inappropriate comments for the public to read and the public can decide to ignore that user.... I understand the logic, but it sure gets my curiosity up when I see something has been deleted....

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No thank.
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Sep 12, 2007 10:00 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I depend (and likewise ignore) the right-by-way-of-pluto for telling me what constitutes a moral decision regarding reproductive rights. I frown at anti-choice sentiments from the left-by-way-of-neptune centaurians to joining the chorus.

Fundies of all stripes are welcome to their personal religion(s). I don't need it, thanks.

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the short answer is yes but there's a proviso...
Posted by: Suzon on Sep 12, 2007 10:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...no one is expendable except perhaps for those who endanger the rest of us as demonstrated in a fair hearing.

Even then they might be made good use of in some way.


Perhaps as replacements for animal testing.

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All the world's problems
Posted by: vertical on Sep 12, 2007 10:17 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I beleive all the world's problems come down to shit for parents. For instance, go to one of America's fine prisons and ask its inhabitants about their parents, and 99 times out of a 100 you will hear tales of neglect, abuse and abandonment. I did a little statistical analysis, and I discovered that a convicted felon's fertility rate is half a child higher than average. An average American has 2.1 children, while your average convicted felon has 2.6. If we prevented everyone who was going to be a rottten parent from doing so we would reduce our numbers while lowering our rate of incarceration.

Here is something I would like comments on: If somneone has been convicted of a felony that victomized a child why should they be able to retain their reproductive rights?

In this country we will imprison you if you have done something wrong, and we may even put you to death if you did something really wrong, but it would be wrong to take someone's reproductive rights away from them. They let Ted Bundy marry and father a child while he was sitting on death row, and the woman that gave birth to his daughter was a releated to one of his victoms. Is that not kind of sick? Would you want to be Ted's daughter?

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» RE: All the world's problems Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: All the world's problems Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» The courts Posted by: vertical
» RE: The courts Posted by: Basenjis
Malthusiasm
Posted by: BobbieP on Sep 12, 2007 10:21 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They are already on it! Radiation poisoning is decimating Iraq, Puerto Rico, Hawaii, Northern Israel, Southern Lebanon, San Francisco, and the rest of us ditto, but more slowly.

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Cut the excuses
Posted by: Ambrose Pare on Sep 12, 2007 10:34 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Politcally correct is for losers.

I want clean air, clean rivers, peace and quiet, and tons of space. I want lots of animals to hunt, and tons of natural resources. I want my lakes and creeks packed with fish.

The world is a pie and we all get a slice, the more people, the smaller the slices we all get. I'm selfish, I'm a horrible person I don't care. I don't care about what the world can support. I only care about quality of life. And the quality of life goes down as the population exceeds its optimum.

So do what China has done. Who cares that we denied someone from becoming another single mommy.

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» RE: Cut the excuses Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Because Posted by: WhatNow?
Over-Population is Encouraged by the USA
Posted by: sofla100 on Sep 12, 2007 10:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unfortunately, over-population proponents often fail to really mention another big problem connected with it . That is, the distribution of the world's over-populated population. You've got 1.5 billion in China and some 300 million plus in the USA, but these countries are about the same in terms of land size. On top of that, you have countries like Australia where the population is only about 30 million (est.) and they are also about the same size as the USA and China. Now, for countries like China and India, with a lot of people, the economies are highly dependent still on physical labor, so having a lot of people is not something they want to really change. On top of that, with so-called "free trade," counries like the USA, in a way, "encourage" the over-population of countries like China, India and Indonesia. We buy the cheap consumer goods and our policies and laws encourage it. If we really want change, "free trade" and it's related slave labor should go by the wayside. Next, immigration should be open and a respected right of people everywhere. Then, you would see some big changes. Otherwise, forget it.

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» RE: Over-Population is Encouraged by the USA Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: Over-Population is Encouraged by the USA Posted by: Constitutionalist75
Overpopulation... the ticking time bomb
Posted by: MTguy on Sep 12, 2007 10:58 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The planet has only so much capacity to hold members of the most destructive species on earth and we're doing nothing to stop our numbers from increasing.

Unless population growth is reined in at some point, disease-war for territory-natural disasters will come into play in keeping our numbers down whether we like it or not.

The other side of the coin is medicine is doing all it can to extend our life spans. Unfortunately this is the time in life when doing that prolonging takes more resources than it does to keep a young person going.

Finally, consumption level - we can't have it all and sustain ourselves as a species on this planet. We consume far, far more than we need to live and that is going to come back to bite us right in the you-know-where.

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» RE: Overpopulation... the ticking time bomb Posted by: Constitutionalist75
We live in a terrarium!
Posted by: mmqc on Sep 12, 2007 12:15 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm 62. When I was 16, my chemistry teacher taught us that matter is finite, there can never be more than there is now, nor can there be less. That was a defining moment in my life. Suddenly, I understood why animals become extinct and what the book "The Population Bomb" was telling us. Think of the planet as a terrarium. If you have BILLIONS more people, you will have LESS of everything else. Also, with the recent talk of water shortages, it occurs to me that people are largely made up of water so surely the same connection can be made. My husband and I have never had children by choice.

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» RE: We live in a terrarium! Posted by: Constitutionalist75
Read
Posted by: Gaubladt on Sep 12, 2007 12:18 PM   
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Paul R. Ehrlich, "The Population Bomb"

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tom clancy wrote a book about this, you know
Posted by: gerdhansel on Sep 12, 2007 12:25 PM   
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Tom Clancy wrote a book about this very subject called “Rainbow Six.” In “Rainbow,” radical environmentalists plot to kill every human being on the planet except for them and their fellow travelers, using a souped-up version of the Ebola virus.

In the end, the perennial Clancy hero John Clark and his sidekick “Ding” Chavez save the day, catching those evil tree huggers in the Brazilian rain forest. Clark and his band of Deltas and SAS volunteers force those Granola-crunchers to strip naked. In a terse farewell, Clark tells them to have a nice life in the jungle before he abandons them to the company of the