COMMENTS: 119
The Great Biofuel Hoax
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Biofuels invoke an image of renewable abundance that allows industry, politicians, the World Bank, the United Nations and even the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change to present fuel from corn, sugarcane, soy and other crops as a replacement for oil that will bring about a smooth transition to a renewablefuel economy.
Myths of abundance divert attention from powerful economic interests that benefit from this biofuels transition, avoiding discussion of the growing price that citizens of the global South are beginning to pay to maintain the consumptive oil-based lifestyle of the North. Biofuel mania obscures the profound consequences of the industrial transformation of our food and fuel systems -- the agro-fuels transition.
The Agro-fuels Boom
Industrialized countries have unleashed an "agro-fuels boom" by mandating ambitious renewable fuel targets. Renewable fuels are to provide 5.75 percent of Europe's transport fuel by 2010, and 10 percent by 2020. The U.S. goal is 35 billion gallons a year. These targets far exceed the agricultural capacities of the industrial North. Europe would need to use 70 percent of its farmland for fuel.
The United States' entire corn and soy harvest would need to be processed as ethanol and biodiesel. Northern countries expect the global South to meet their fuel needs, and southern governments appear eager to oblige. Indonesia and Malaysia are rapidly cutting down forests to expand oil-palm plantations targeted to supply up to 20 percent of the European Union biodiesel market. In Brazil -- where fuel crops already occupy an area the size of the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg and Great Britain combined -- the government is planning a fivefold increase in sugar cane acreage with a goal of replacing 10 percent of the world's gasoline by 2025.
The rapid capitalization and concentration of power within the agro-fuels industry is breathtaking. From 2004 to 2007, venture capital investment in agro-fuels increased eightfold. Private investment is swamping public research institutions, as evidenced by BP's recent award of half a billion dollars to the University of California. In open defiance of national anti-trust laws, giant oil, grain, auto and genetic engineering corporations are forming powerful partnerships: ADM with Monsanto, Chevron and Volkswagen, BP with DuPont and Toyota. These corporations are consolidating research, production, processing and distribution chains of our food and fuel system under one colossal, industrial roof.
Agro-fuel champions assure us that because fuel crops are renewable, they are environmentally friendly and can reduce global warming, fostering rural development. But the tremendous market power of agro-fuel corporations, coupled with weak political will of governments to regulate their activities, is a recipe for environmental disaster and increasing hunger in the global South. It's time to examine the myths fueling this biofuel boom -- before it's too late.
Myth #1: Agro-fuels are clean and green
Because photosynthesis from fuel crops removes greenhouse gases from the atmosphere and can reduce fossil fuel consumption, we are told fuel crops are green. But when the full "life cycle" of agro-fuels is considered -- from land clearing to automotive consumption -- the moderate emission savings are undone by far greater emissions from deforestation, burning, peat drainage, cultivation and soil carbon losses. Every ton of palm oil produced results in 33 tons of carbon dioxide emissions -- 10 times more than petroleum. Clearing tropical forests for sugarcane ethanol emits 50 percent more greenhouse gases than the production and use of the same amount of gasoline.
There are other environmental problems as well. Industrial agro-fuels require large applications of petroleum-based fertilizers, whose global use has more than doubled the biologically available nitrogen in the world, contributing heavily to the emission of nitrous oxide, a greenhouse gas 300 times more potent than carbon dioxide.
To produce a liter of ethanol takes three to five liters of irrigation water and produces up to 13 liters of waste water. It takes the energy equivalent of 113 liters of natural gas to treat this waste, increasing the likelihood that it will simply be released into the environment. Intensive cultivation of fuel crops also leads to high rates of erosion.
Myth #2: Agro-fuels will not result in deforestation
Proponents of agro-fuels argue that fuel crops planted on ecologically degraded lands will improve, rather than destroy, the environment. Perhaps the government of Brazil had this in mind when it re-classified some 200 million hectares of dry tropical forests, grassland and marshes as "degraded" and apt for cultivation. In reality, these are the bio-diverse ecosystems of the Mata Atlantica, the Cerrado and the Pantanal, occupied by indigenous people, subsistence farmers and extensive cattle ranches.
The introduction of agro-fuel plantations will simply push these communities to the "agricultural frontier" of the Amazon where deforestation will intensify. Soybeans supply 40 percent of Brazil's biodiesel. NASA has positively correlated their market price with the destruction of the Amazon rainforest -- currently at nearly 325,000 hectares a year.
Myth #3: Agro-fuels will bring rural development
In the tropics, 100 hectares dedicated to family farming generates 35 jobs. Oil palm and sugarcane provide 10 jobs, eucalyptus two and soybeans just one half-job per 100 hectares, all poorly paid. Until this boom, agro-fuels primarily supplied local markets, and even in the United States, most ethanol plants were small and farmer-owned. Big Oil, Big Grain and Big Genetic Engineering are rapidly consolidating control over the entire agro-fuel value chain.
The market power of these corporations is staggering: Cargill and ADM control 65 percent of the global grain trade, Monsanto and Syngenta a quarter of the $60 billion gene-tech industry. This market power allows these companies to extract profits from the most lucrative and low-risk segments of the value chain -- hundreds of thousands of small farmers have already been displaced by soybean plantations in South America.
Myth #4: Agro-fuels will not cause hunger
Hunger, said Amartya Sen, results not from scarcity, but poverty. According to the U.N. Food and Agriculture Organization, there is enough food in the world to supply everyone with a daily 3,500-calorie diet of grains, fresh fruit, nuts, vegetables, dairy and meat.
Nonetheless, because they are poor, 824 million people continue to go hungry. If current trends continue, some 1.2 billion people could be chronically hungry by 2025 -- 600 million more than previously predicted. World food aid will not likely come to the rescue because surpluses will go into our gas tanks. What is urgently needed is massive transfers of food-producing resources to the rural poor, not converting land to fuel production.
Myth #5: Better "second-generation" agrofuels are just around the corner
Proponents of agro-fuels argue that current agro-fuels made from food crops will soon be replaced with environmentally friendly crops like fast-growing trees and switchgrass. This myth, wryly referred to as the "bait and switchgrass" shell game, makes food-based fuels socially acceptable.
The agro-fuel transition transforms land use on a massive scale, pitting food production against fuel production for land, water and resources. The issue of which crops are converted to fuel is irrelevant. Wild plants cultivated as fuel crops won't have a smaller "environmental footprint." They will rapidly migrate from hedgerows and woodlots onto arable lands to be intensively cultivated like any other industrial crop, with all the associated environmental externalities.
Agro-fuel: a new industrial revolution?
The International Energy Agency estimates that over the next 23 years, the world could produce as much as 147 million tons of agro-fuel. This will be accompanied by a lot of carbon, nitrous oxide, erosion and more than two billion tons of waste water. Remarkably, this fuel will barely offset the yearly increase in global oil demand, now standing at 136 million tons a year -- not offsetting any of the existing demand.
The agro-fuel transition is based on a 200-year relation between agriculture and industry that began with the Industrial Revolution. The invention of the steam engine promised an end to drudgery. As governments privatized common lands, dispossessed peasants supplied cheap farm and factory labor. Cheap oil and petroleum- based fertilizers opened up agriculture itself to industrial capital.
Mechanization intensified production, keeping food prices low and industry booming. The last 100 years have seen a threefold global shift to urban living with as many people now living in cities as in the countryside. The massive transfer of wealth from agriculture to industry, the industrialization of agriculture, and the rural-urban shift are all part of the "agrarian transition," transforming most of the world's fuel and food systems and establishing non-renewable petroleum as the foundation of today's multi-trilliondollar agri-foods industry.
The pillars of this agri-foods industry are the great grain corporations, including ADM, Cargill and Bunge. They are surrounded by an equally formidable consolidation of agro-chemical, seed and machinery companies on the one hand and food processors, distributors and supermarket chains on the other.
Like the original agrarian transition, the present agro-fuels transition will "enclose the commons" by industrializing the remaining forests and prairies of the world. It will drive the planet's remaining smallholders, family farmers and indigenous peoples to the cities. This government-industry collusion has the potential to funnel rural resources to urban centers in the form of fuel, concentrating industrial wealth. But this time, there is no cheap fuel to drive industrial expansion and there will be no jobs for the masses of people displaced from the countryside. Millions of people may be pushed farther into poverty.
Building Food and Fuel Sovereignty
The agro-fuels transition is not inevitable. There is no inherent reason to sacrifice sustainable, equitable food and fuel systems to industry. Many successful, locally focused, energyefficient and people-centered alternatives are presently producing food and fuel in ways that do not threaten food systems, the environment or livelihoods.
The question is not whether ethanol and biodiesel have a place in our future, but whether or not we allow a handful of global corporations to impoverish the planet and the majority of its people. To avoid this trap we must promote a steady-state agrarian transition built on re-distributive land reform that re-populates and stabilizes the world's struggling rural communities. This includes rebuilding and strengthening our local food systems and creating conditions for the local re-investment of rural wealth. Putting people and environment -- instead of corporate megaprofits -- at the center of rural development requires food sovereignty: the right of people to determine their own food systems.
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Posted by: Bobsays on Jun 25, 2007 12:22 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We should be tackling waste and our energy-gobbling way of life, not just switching from burning petrol to burning biofuel. Our way of life is hugely wasteful and in fact is not making us healthier. We should be thinking in terms of a ten-year plan to move towards less waste and healthier lifestyles. And that can only happen if we change how we live and work. Communities must cut back on car travel and switch to convenient public transport. Shops should be only a few stops away from most housing. People should be riding bikes more often. Houses should be smaller and energy efficient. Planes should be upgraded to the Boeing Dreamliner and the next generation of fuel-efficient aircraft.
We shouldn't be taking tacos out of the mouths of the poor in Mexico so mama can gas up her SUV and get her fat butt to Wal Mart!
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» You are wise
Posted by: Lloyd Drako
» RE: You are wise
Posted by: richholland
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Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line on Jun 25, 2007 2:26 AM
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» RE: I
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: I
Posted by: pedex
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Posted by: Zachria on Jun 25, 2007 3:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When fossil fuel production begins its inevitable decline, the social and economic effect will only be exacerbated by the fact that we have increased our dependency through the development and use of biofuels.
Only corporate greed could cause such crass and obscene promotion of a path that will only serve to make the crash more severe. The economic optimism used to promote ideas like biofuels is really a smoke screen thrown up to hide and detract from the profiteeing being done at the expense of the entire planet.
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» I think you are right
Posted by: Bobsays
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Posted by: Don Garb on Jun 25, 2007 3:59 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: What about hemp?
Posted by: Spartan.Armor
» RE: What about hemp?
Posted by: picket
» RE: What about hemp?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Hemp: It makes a difference
Posted by: leftoverbacon
» And the fact that you plant ANYTHING makes a big difference.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: What about hemp?
Posted by: hilaryuk
» RE: What about hemp?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» kaneh bosm, cannabis, hemp
Posted by: garry minor
» RE: kaneh bosm, cannabis, hemp
Posted by: donl51
» RE: What about hemp?
Posted by: Francis
» RE: What about hemp?,, What about non combustion? ,fertilizer?, pollution?
Posted by: sasquuatch55
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Posted by: Spartan.Armor on Jun 25, 2007 4:45 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You can try to use any plant you like for biofuel production, but the bottom line is that too much oil is used.
There needs to be a massive shift in the way people move from A to B.
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» RE: People Don't Realize...
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: People Don't Realize...
Posted by: ConnecttheDots
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Posted by: jmndodge on Jun 25, 2007 4:59 AM
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Posted by: richholland on Jun 25, 2007 5:22 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Food into your gastank is sick.
In Westerneurope we have the HIGH SPEED TRAINS to the major cities the compete with planes at 40% of the CO2
A capitalistic economical system is from the last century.
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» RE: hypocrisy=GREEN
Posted by: Trazom
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Posted by: kjbkn on Jun 25, 2007 5:27 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: kb
Posted by: Bozly
» RE: kb - Try logic.
Posted by: heid
» RE: kb - Try logic.
Posted by: Joeviocoe
» Find REFLECTIONS of Fidel Castro on Mathaba, or Granma
Posted by: mdruss42
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Posted by: snowhound on Jun 25, 2007 5:30 AM
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» well, all this crap about electric cars...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: well, all this crap about electric cars...
Posted by: Trazom
» Could be... but then you still have all the production of photovoltaics
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Could be... but then don't forget the batteries
Posted by: sphoenix
» I don't mind hearing it....
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Could be... but then you still have all the production of photovoltaics
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: well, all this crap about electric cars...CRAP!
Posted by: heid
» RE: well, all this crap about electric cars...CRAP!
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: well, all this crap about electric cars...CRAP!
Posted by: heid
» RE: well, all this crap about electric cars...CRAP!
Posted by: snowhound
» RE: well, all this crap about electric cars...CRAP!
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Nuclear is no better.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» RE: Nuclear is no better.
Posted by: Nedtheredhead
» RE: Nuclear is no better.
Posted by: Gulliver
» RE: Nuclear is no better.
Posted by: Nedtheredhead
» RE: Nuclear is no better.
Posted by: Gulliver
» RE: well, all this crap about electric cars...Nuclear is no better?
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» Haven't You Heard?
Posted by: staicnoise
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Posted by: solrev on Jun 25, 2007 5:54 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: the great energy scam
Posted by: Ben Furman
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Posted by: Farmertim on Jun 25, 2007 7:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a small biological/organic grower and provider of food I am very conscience of how much of a carbon footprint I am leaving growing my products.
I can't help but think if food was once again close by as it was 100 years ago it would offset a host of energy needs as well as fertilizer consumption given one could incorporate rotations as fertilizer instead of buying more oil to to the job.
Of course one would have to diversify and have animals in the mix but thats food too...
The core of the issue is that we need to stop for a while and rethink how we in this country live and rethink how to move things back to a localized food source, and not just see our cars as portals to anything, anytime we wish.
Communities need to begin to promote businesses that benifit a local supplier and not shift that tax deferment over to a mutinational for 6 years and then it pulls out to gain favor with another town with tax incentives.
It is up to us to rethink how we use the worlds resources, backs and health of poor nations peoples so we are truley sustainable not carried chicken back over the edge of ecological ruin..
Farmer Tim
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Posted by: Pat Kittle on Jun 25, 2007 7:32 AM
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I've said it before, I'll say it again -- even if we were all solar-powered bicycle-riding hemp-using vegan pacifists, we are STILL grotesquely unsustainably overpopulated.
Serious birth control will one day be the "DUH!!" humans finally stumble over.
In the meantime, keep grasping at straws! :-)
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» RE: Sixty seven hundred million apex techno-predators is just too damn many no matter what.
Posted by: joshthecaptain
» Without serious birth control, you're merely prolonging the collapse.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» RE: Without serious birth control, you're merely prolonging the collapse.
Posted by: eggnog2464
» Right you are.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» You didn't answer my recent question*, although I always answer yours. Maybe I shouldn't bother.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» Competition uber alles is a lie.
Posted by: Sojourner
» And overbreeding fuels competition. So why not remove the fuel?
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» The leadership coming from China impresses me most.
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: Benjaminsjw on Jun 25, 2007 8:22 AM
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Another point that the author makes is the use of fossil fuel based fertilizers in producing biofuels. This does not invalidate biofuels either. It merely shows that agriculture should become less dependant on artificial fertilizers. The organic residue from sewage plants could be used to fertilize the soil.
Agricultural equipment should of course run on biofuels as well.
Another idea would be to investigate the possibilities of double usage. Deep-frying fat can, after it has been discarded, be used to make bio-diesel.
But probably the most important point is that the acreage that is used to produce animal fodder is probably larger than the acreage that is used to grow consumer crops. If we would reduce our consumption of meat, we could use the freed acreage for growing biofuel.
After all, it's about the choices that we are willing to make.
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» You just answered your own question.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» Population Control
Posted by: Veronique
» RE: Population Control -- Well said, Veronique.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» Thanks PK
Posted by: Veronique
» Veronique, this is for your eyes only. [Warning to human chauvinists: Do not look! You are warned.]
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» Veronique, I apologize.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» RE: Why do these discussions always tend to become black and white?
Posted by: Zachria
» RE: Why do these discussions always tend to become black and white?
Posted by: Nedtheredhead
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Posted by: DrSuess on Jun 25, 2007 9:24 AM
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There are abandoned houses in the downtown, but people would rather move to the suburbs, kill some trees in building a new house, and then spend $50 a week on gasoline to get to work. This is currently the “American Way”.
Some months ago, there was an article on the death of the suburbs on AlterNet. High gas prices are eventually going to kill the suburbs and the morning and evening rush hours. The question is when, not whether. We are spending more and more on less sustainable projects. It is a question of time before the folly of this becomes blindingly apparent.
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Posted by: picket on Jun 25, 2007 9:33 AM
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Corn Wars Rage in Mexico...Biofuels push the source of cheap nutrition out of reach....corn flour has risen 400%. Tortillas became so unaffordable that people took to the streets.
http://www.thespec.com/News/CanadaWorld/article/211050
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Posted by: EinMD on Jun 25, 2007 9:57 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Second of all as far as the 'green panic' you're describing, ultimately we need non-poluting vehicles. But that isn't going to happen any time soon. Electric cars aren't going to happen because the automotive industry keeps blocking them. THere's a compressed air powered Air Car in production in France, but you're not going to see it over here because there's no money in it's production. H2 tech is still a -long- way away and while solar and wind power are cropping up occasionally they're not ready to take a decent share of power generation. Nuclear's still around ( and I support it ) but people are too affraid of another CHernobyl or a Jack Bauer scenario to allow a nuke plant in their neighborhood.
We've got to do something because Oil isn't getting any cheaper or more common and every war we start to get more only succeeds in further limiting the supply. Producing fuel from renewable sources such as woodchips, grass clippings, recycled wood waste from buildings, and other sources of growing things - still - outweighs Oil in the fact that oil is going to be gone some time very soon and it's not going to come back unless someone invents a time travelling Jurasic park. But using plant material we can grow more each season and the technology will improve over time. So all your arguments about how much energy expenditure you need to get a gallon of Ethanol ( and we sthould still be using Butanol ) are so much hot air. As technology improves the cost will drop, unlike with oil. You don't need to replace food crops with fuel crops. All it takes is some plant waste and some bacterial fermentation. So you can have your food and power your car with it too.
In fact that only major problem with Butanol that I've been able to uncover is that being only 7% soluble in water you really don't want it in your water supply since it's considered toxic. But then, you don't want Gasoline in your water supply either do ya?
So should we stop farming food? No, but we can use advanced farming techniques and use the inedible materials from what we harvest to create fuel. Turn waste products into a usable solution is a good idea and a hell of a lot better than just continuing the way we are and sticking our head in the oil soaked sand. Which is what all these 'anti green' types that keep cropping up seem to want - the status quo.
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» RE: nvironement, Green and Oil - Not good enough.
Posted by: heid
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Posted by: Trazom on Jun 25, 2007 10:08 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do these Einsteins really think this is going to make all that much of a difference? All it is going to do is line the pockets of a few more multinationals and conglomerates (and policians).
Here's a hint. Look at how our society has changed in the past 7 years. Ok, now what do you think it will look like in another 13? Who are they kidding?
People having to drive to work long distances from the suburbs? By that point globalization and outsourcing will long have since extinguished those jobs, taking care of that nicely. And if it doesn't, the coming economic financial/credit calamity that awaits us all will surely put a crimp in filling up the gas tanks.
Don't count on anything changing, except the increasing prices at the pump that will still enslave us except for the lucky few who have figured out self-sufficiency.
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» RE: Goin' Green - full of sound and fury yet signifying nothing
Posted by: eggnog2464
» RE: Goin' Green - full of sound and fury yet signifying nothing
Posted by: Dartagnan
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Posted by: saml on Jun 25, 2007 10:52 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is a great saying any lefty should keep in mind: Be careful what you witch for - you just might get it.
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» Thank you for pointing out how it's all our fault, and none of your own; we did witch for it.
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: Art on Jun 25, 2007 12:29 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hey, there'll be new plants and animals in a few million years. God knows how often this has happened all over the universe.
Will the cockroaches and ants slug it out in a bid for world domination? Will they have archeologists? Develop cars and industry even? Oops, here we go again. But a few million years later...
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» RE: There's always the future
Posted by: solrev
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Posted by: marid on Jun 25, 2007 12:47 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Only a step in the right direction
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
» NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO,
Posted by: mdruss42
» RE: NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO,
Posted by: Joeviocoe
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Posted by: willymack on Jun 25, 2007 1:38 PM
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Posted by: eggnog2464 on Jun 25, 2007 2:11 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only way to preserve our civilization is to radically cut back on consumption and reduce our population. After the recent G8 session, I gave up. No future for us or our civilization. My only hope that GW lives long enough to see his beloved Crawford turn to sand and dust (and even that is of little solace)....
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Posted by: pre-emptive impeachment on Jun 25, 2007 3:31 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Actually there's way more than enough land.
First it is important to distinguish between PV and solar thermal. PV or photovoltaics are usually silicon based cells, usually what comes to mind when people hear solar power.
Solar thermal on the otherhand has no solar collecting silicon. Instead it is either parabolic or spherical mirrors that focus the sun on a pipe that is usually carrying oil of some sort. A very simplified look shows that the heated oil then goes through a heat exchanger, which then heats steam, which is then fed into turbines which produce electricity. Very similar to every other power plant, just instead of using coal or natural gas to heat the steam it is using the sun for energy.
After the oil passes through the heat exchanger it is sent back out to be heated again, so none of the oil is burned as it is a closed loop.
Well in my solar engineering class we did some number crunching. The world consumes about 400 quads of energy. Interestingly the US alone consumes about 100 quads, or 1/4 of the worlds energy. Anyway, the amount of solar energy hitting New york State alone, assuming 7 hours of sunlight for 365 days a year is about 800 quads, or twice as much as the world consumes. Well that sounds mighty fantastic. But current large scale solar thermal and photovoltaics are in the ballpark of 20% efficient, which means we need an area 5 times the size of new york, or an area about the size of texas, or in the grand scheme of things 0.0000013% of the total land to meet the world's energy needs. Well, that still sounds mighty fantastic. It is important to mention, there are solar thermal systems set up with stirling engines that are 40% efficient, but I am unsure about efficiency upon massive upscaling (the ones I found were on the order of 1KW, which isn't very much).
When the sun isn't shining, say at night or during bad weather, wind power could be used as a back-up. There are also other energy storage devices such as batteries and hydrogen (through electrolysis) that could be used fuel cells, nanotechnology may (keyword is 'may' so please don't take that as a fact) play a big role increasing the energy density of batteries. Someone in New Jersey actually has a solar house with hydrogen fuel cell back up.
As for cars, tesla motors just released an all electric car with a range of 250 miles and 0-60 in about 3 seconds. GM had their electric car. So the technology is there, and the clean energy source, being solar and wind is also there. Also, just a side not. Even though our power plant system is pretty pollutive, it is less pollutive than gasoline and diesel, so it would be better, still not the best, to run our cars off electriciy instead of gas.
There is also passive solar and cooling that virtually eliminates the need for a mechanical HVAC system, saving oil and it's derivatives as well as electricity. If included in the design process or during a massive renovation, it adds minimal cost to the house.
So for solar thermal you are still going to need glass, metals, plastics, and oil (it may be possible to use a different energy transporter though). Theretically, it would seem that many of the building components could come from recycled good. Besides maintenance it's more or less a one time expenditure, unlike fossil fuels where you have to keep feeding fuel of some sort into the power plant. Which implies when looking at it in terms of it's life-cycle it will produce very little pollution when compared to fossil fuel power plants. Plus We are going to have a very difficult time finding something that uses zero resources.
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» Should read Area the size of new mexico not texas, my mistake...n/m
Posted by: pre-emptive impeachment
» RE: Should read Area the size of new mexico not texas, my mistake...n/m
Posted by: defiant
» very nicely summarized!
Posted by: counterpoint
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jun 25, 2007 3:40 PM
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Some of the comments above refer to population (an obvious limitation to growth in an enclosed space - like a planet's surface). Why has population grown so much? The most common explanation is that fossil fuels and industrial agriculture have provided food for people.
However, did people used to die of starvation in the past, in vast numbers? No. The main killer was infectious disease, which was poorly understood. When antibiotics and hygiene came along, many people who would otherwise have died in childhood ended up surviving and having children.
Industrial agriculture is a dead end, which has been shown by only half a century or so of the practive. Huge amounts of fossil fuels go into fertilzers, herbicides, pesticides, farm equipment, transportation and storage. The soil ends up stripped of all nutrients, but will recover given time.
If you want to have sustainable biofuels, you need sustainable agriculture, which means getting agriculture off fossil fuels. This is entirely possible using existing technologies (solar, wind, electric engines, etc.).
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» RE: The Real Hoax: industrial agriculture and the green revolution
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: The Real Hoax: industrial agriculture and the green revolution
Posted by: eggnog2464
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Posted by: electricwind on Jun 25, 2007 5:04 PM
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Posted by: monkeywrench on Jun 25, 2007 10:19 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These problems were being discussed in "The Population Bomb" by Paul Erlich, "The Limits to Growth," The Club of Rome, and others more than thirty years – THIRTY YEARS! – ago.
What both saddens me and fills me with dread for my children is that the very-same arguments, obfuscation and denial that greeted the work of those visionaries then are still operating today, even as we stare into the abyss.
In all of our cleverness and complication and what passes for civilization, we have not become wise, and that will be our undoing. We are on the same evolutionary path as the Dodo – and, like the Dodo, we're too dumb to know it.
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» RE: The Population Bomb and similar comments
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» As for sending the population bomb into outer space -- any other bright ideas?
Posted by: Pat Kittle
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Posted by: RedAaron on Jun 26, 2007 3:48 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One could argue that it wouldn't contribute much to the world's energy supply, but think of what it would do to reduce consumption!
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» RE: A Modest Biofuel Proposal
Posted by: Pat Kittle
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Posted by: richholland on Jun 26, 2007 4:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the 10.000 richest people in the states tomorrow die ..
nothing will change.
If tomorrow 10.000 nurses die the country is in trouble...
In Schweden 85% of the gas at the station is made of woodpulp..in Europe we think to burn food in your car is sick.
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Posted by: Vascabruta on Jun 26, 2007 11:27 AM
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linked text
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Posted by: sasquuatch55 on Jun 28, 2007 6:59 PM
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Posted by: Joeviocoe on Jun 28, 2007 8:34 PM
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The first paragraph alone shows its bias. No one with half a brain calls Biofuels a "replacement". The IPCC may be just a political wing for environmentalist, but they are some very serious scientist nonetheless. They ARE politically motivated but it doesn't take a genius to know that there is NO Replacement for our "growing exponentially" energy needs. Thats why it is a problem.
The word HOAX is subjective to what is being advertised. The first part of the article focuses on destroying the idea of "abundance". This is agreeable to me because when I say renewable, people hear abundant. If I have a solar array on my house, the energy is renewable. I can count on it being there pretty much forever, everyday 100 kwh per day consistently. Abundances getting as much energy to feed my growing need as if I could turn up the sun's output on my array. They are NOT the same. They say the same thing about global warming affecting the "global south". That UN mandated restrictions on pollution harm people in Africa by making electricity more expensive and forcing people to cook with open flame indoors (see the Great Global Warming Swindle) http://www.lse.co.uk/ShowStory.asp?story=CZ434669U
Okay.. Myth 1
Firstly, I hate statistics with hard numbers that don't have sources. Even at the bottom of Wiki pages you can find references to lookup, may not be worth anything but still.
Both examples of palm oil and ethanol crops were stated with clearing tropical rainforests to plant. That is obviously the most energy intensive way to make biofuel. Also, to clear land and deforest requires energy. The author probably counted the energy consumption to clear the land and automotive using gasoline since most heavy equipment does not use the biofuels (farmers don't use what they plan on selling for profit: see microeconomics). So they are dirtier than they need to be.
Lifecycle is a very interesting concept. Did the author count only the Carbon costs of the first gallon of biofuel versus the first gallon of gasoline. The point here would be the main benefit of the word "Renewable". The first gallon or barrel of product will be very expensive then you make good on production by producing more and more. The problem with petroleum is the SHORT lifecycle. Those "convienient numbers" like "50 percent more greenhouse gases" seems thrown together.
Clearing topical forest is a one time venture and is included but building the oil drilling infrastructure was not. C'MON.
Oil discovered, land or sea prep, drilling derek, pump, and/or platform, then the cost of operation. That is not energy free. The author probably did NOT take into account the energy costs beginning from finding the oil. He most likely just counted the production cost. Like refining and transportation.
Deforestation: One time
Burning: One time
Peat: Anually and only in wetland crops
(Peat is a fossil fuel and is also considered to be a biomass fuel)
I agree on the use of Petroluem Based Fertilizers to slowdown the release of NOx. Since NOx is 296 (not 300) times worse of a greenhouse gas.
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Posted by: Joeviocoe on Jun 28, 2007 8:34 PM
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Myth 2
Easy. Damn Brazilians. Money talks I'm afraid. The same thing goes for the Colombian cartels using thier leverage over farmers and land to gain profits. American forests are safe for now thanks to strict EPA, Dept. of Interior, and conservationalist. This is not so different from trying to drill for oil in ANWAR.
Myth 3
Yeah, BIG Oil again.... Gotta move fast. Those with power will only want to keep it. That, unfortunately is no different here. For now, you can buy from local producers. And you can make the stuff yourself with the proper stuff.
Myth 4
Who thought that! Everything you do causes hunger. The problem is much more indepth than most realize. Crops grown in the US are not shipped to Africa. When it is (Somalia 1993) the damn warlords gave it to soldiers instead of the starving people.
Myth 5
Well this one requires more thought. Some plants require more time and energy to yield a certain amount of gallons with a certain amount of energy density. The best plant is dependent on the soil and climate. There is no super biofuel plant. Some will be better than others in converting nutrients, water, and sunlight into biofuel.
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» RE: The 5 Myths (continued)
Posted by: Joeviocoe
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Posted by: richholland on Jul 2, 2007 4:44 AM
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Millions of people changed into GREEN.
So we save peak oil.
To day we learn 1/3 comes from France out of atomic factories, 1/3 from palmpits.
To grow these trees in Indonesia and Malesia they killed the apes (and some natives) and destroyed the rainforest
How stupid green leftis can be??
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» RE: GREEN GREEN OK OK
Posted by: Joeviocoe
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Posted by: tchii on Jul 2, 2007 3:51 PM
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But we have to make sure DuPont et. al. keep their profits up, even at the expense of our country/people/citizens/children.
Yes this is an extremely fuelish country. Of course hemp, perhaps because it would be so helpful to the individual farmers out there, is not even considered at this point because idiots, who didn't know any better, made it illegal (they were and still are call congressmen) and a fair number of them didn't even know what they were voting for (you see it was call marijhuana at the time and the idiots didn't know what that was), so you can see that our congress (we voted for these people?) has pretty much not changed since at least the later 1930's, as they vote to take away your rights, pork barrel their friends and screw the middle class...all without even completely reading the bills they are passing!
Namaste
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Posted by: Joeviocoe on Jul 2, 2007 11:32 PM
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I do not fault you for thinking this way. Left and right are two extremes nonetheless. I try to stay close to the fence while leaning to one side depending on the issue.
When people feel the urge to do good, they strive and do what they can. But since these things do not happen on their own, money must be involved. And although I am not a religious person, I do believe the "Money is the root of all evil".
It is a phrase seldom used properly. The "green leftis" generally do not understand that their movement has fallen into the hands of money people. This is how I believe it works.
1) Great idea. (Leftis say, "Lets use green energy")
2) Optimism runs away with itself (Everyone says, "Sure, we all can do it, the whole nation")
3) Public support gets attention of lawmakers and politicians (Mr. Mann says he is for going Green to get elected)
4) Policies give business opportunities to companies (Acme farming sees a way to make a lot of money)
5 The turn!!! (Acme farming, Inc. is far removed from having real ideals from step 1.
Since Acme Farming, Inc. does NOT share the ideals of the Leftis, it will do anything to make money on the Green movement. Including cutting down a rainforest or two.
So who is to blame?
The Left for not knowing their great idea would turn against them?
The company that never claimed to be green in the first place but only to provide the services promised?
Okay... so some of the people in this forum say lets blame the idea for not being fool proof. Since people will exploit it and the idea was not perfectly conceived lets throw out the whole thing.
"Biofuel is a HOAX" they say.
It is NOT A HOAX!!!
It is difficult.
It is not possible to replace everything with
It will only help a little bit in some applications
It will be exploited by ruthless people and organizations
It will be mocked by people who don't want to try.
DONT Stop biofuel... STOP the idiots doing dirty things to bring us clean things.
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Posted by: OscarR on Jul 3, 2007 8:25 AM
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http://www.tni.org/detail_pub.phtml?&know_id=188
and
http://grain.org/seedling/?id=476
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Posted by: Joeviocoe on Jul 3, 2007 12:48 PM
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The good news is that we biodiesel users have a choice of our biodiesel source. Grown in the US not on some huge industrialized agrofarm, but made from some feedstock, or wasted cooking oil, or other local sources.
You CAN'T do that with petroluem. You can't decide to get your oil from somewhere else. Your stuck feeding into the cycle.
This is another gold rush people... Everyone knows that peak oil is apon us and biofuels is the next big thing. It won't last forever either. If I told someone in 1904 that oil wouldn't be abundant anymore after only 100 years then they would laugh at me. Biofuels is a great subsidy for energy while we develop better stuff like solar and Fusion energy. It might take another 50 to 100 years but the sun is living proof of what is possible.
So to recap:
Say NO to large scale agrofarming which results in deforestation, high emmisions (NOx) from fertilizers, killing the land and people, and all the other nastiness.
But say YES to local farming on small scales that conform with strict guidelines RENEWABLE AND SUSTAINABLE production.
The Global South (Indonesia, Africa, Brazil, Etc.) are doing it wrong and making things worse not better. AGREED!! But we CAN do it RIGHT.
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Posted by: Joeviocoe on Jul 7, 2007 12:08 AM
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If we (mankind) survive the next hundred years (maybe more) then I think we may survive the next thousand (maybe more). Many people here are saying that population control is the only way. It might work on the small scale in some areas but you must understand that mankind is like every other aggressive organism on the planet. Humans will expand to every corner. We are a vapor. It is in our nature. Why is it we feel the instinct to be parents in the first place. Not because children are cool to have. Why is the sexual urge (especially in men) the most powerful force within us. Not because sex is awesome (it is but that is not the point). Nature's intention is for mankind to procreate as much as possible.
Here is the turn...
THe Industrial revolution changed everything. Populations are booming like never before and it is truly an exponential curve. So technology gave us the ability to live longer, travel further, and have more children survive childhood. Technology needs to clean up this mess too. Our human nature will not allow us to go backward. Only a natural disaster on a global scale could force us to.
I do admire those here that want to reduce consuption and walk more. I really do. But I cannot expect the rest of the world to suddenly change human nature. That wouldn't be realistic.
Here is the solution as I see it:
1) Mankind looks to as many alternative energy sources as possible. (Edison said that when he tried and failed to make the light bulb, that he wasn't discouraged because he found another way NOT to make a light bulb, but he needed ONLY ONE WAY to make it work).
2) Scrap by the next hundred years doing a little less damage to the environment and slowing down consumption growth.
3) Develop Nuclear fusion that uses only abundant Hydrogen isotopes (not that Tritium stuff because lithium is needed). You cant argue that E=MC2 is not enough energy either. We just need to reduce the needed energy to start and maintain the reaction. 50 -100 years is long to wait for this so expect breakthroughs in the next 10 to 20 years.
4) Use Fusion for power plants and solar cells for small application. Battery technology for anything that is mobile.
5) As we move more and more into space, Hydrogen is more, and more abundant. With abundant energy sources in space more and more people can establish residence there. This will be the new frontier for the population boom. The subsuburbs if you will.
6) Antimatter (500 years maybe)- this will require revolutions in quantum physics to understand the nature of gravity (we still don't know) and what particle are truly made of. We can make antimatter now but only for a instant and it requires much speed. The laws of physics are our side though. The required energy to make antimatter is circumstantial compared to the potential energy output.
Mankind's history will be define by it's ages. the dark ages might reoccur in a new form but if we survive, the enlightenment that follows will be all the more magnificent.
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Posted by: Bobsays on Jun 25, 2007 12:22 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We should be tackling waste and our energy-gobbling way of life, not just switching from burning petrol to burning biofuel. Our way of life is hugely wasteful and in fact is not making us healthier. We should be thinking in terms of a ten-year plan to move towards less waste and healthier lifestyles. And that can only happen if we change how we live and work. Communities must cut back on car travel and switch to convenient public transport. Shops should be only a few stops away from most housing. People should be riding bikes more often. Houses should be smaller and energy efficient. Planes should be upgraded to the Boeing Dreamliner and the next generation of fuel-efficient aircraft.
We shouldn't be taking tacos out of the mouths of the poor in Mexico so mama can gas up her SUV and get her fat butt to Wal Mart!
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» You are wise
Posted by: Lloyd Drako
» RE: You are wise
Posted by: richholland
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Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line on Jun 25, 2007 2:26 AM
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» RE: I
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: I
Posted by: pedex
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Posted by: Zachria on Jun 25, 2007 3:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When fossil fuel production begins its inevitable decline, the social and economic effect will only be exacerbated by the fact that we have increased our dependency through the development and use of biofuels.
Only corporate greed could cause such crass and obscene promotion of a path that will only serve to make the crash more severe. The economic optimism used to promote ideas like biofuels is really a smoke screen thrown up to hide and detract from the profiteeing being done at the expense of the entire planet.
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» I think you are right
Posted by: Bobsays
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Posted by: Don Garb on Jun 25, 2007 3:59 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: What about hemp?
Posted by: Spartan.Armor
» RE: What about hemp?
Posted by: picket
» RE: What about hemp?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Hemp: It makes a difference
Posted by: leftoverbacon
» And the fact that you plant ANYTHING makes a big difference.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: What about hemp?
Posted by: hilaryuk
» RE: What about hemp?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» kaneh bosm, cannabis, hemp
Posted by: garry minor
» RE: kaneh bosm, cannabis, hemp
Posted by: donl51
» RE: What about hemp?
Posted by: Francis
» RE: What about hemp?,, What about non combustion? ,fertilizer?, pollution?
Posted by: sasquuatch55
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Posted by: Spartan.Armor on Jun 25, 2007 4:45 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You can try to use any plant you like for biofuel production, but the bottom line is that too much oil is used.
There needs to be a massive shift in the way people move from A to B.
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» RE: People Don't Realize...
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: People Don't Realize...
Posted by: ConnecttheDots
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Posted by: jmndodge on Jun 25, 2007 4:59 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: richholland on Jun 25, 2007 5:22 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Food into your gastank is sick.
In Westerneurope we have the HIGH SPEED TRAINS to the major cities the compete with planes at 40% of the CO2
A capitalistic economical system is from the last century.
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» RE: hypocrisy=GREEN
Posted by: Trazom
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Posted by: kjbkn on Jun 25, 2007 5:27 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: kb
Posted by: Bozly
» RE: kb - Try logic.
Posted by: heid
» RE: kb - Try logic.
Posted by: Joeviocoe
» Find REFLECTIONS of Fidel Castro on Mathaba, or Granma
Posted by: mdruss42
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Posted by: snowhound on Jun 25, 2007 5:30 AM
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» well, all this crap about electric cars...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: well, all this crap about electric cars...
Posted by: Trazom
» Could be... but then you still have all the production of photovoltaics
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Could be... but then don't forget the batteries
Posted by: sphoenix
» I don't mind hearing it....
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Could be... but then you still have all the production of photovoltaics
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: well, all this crap about electric cars...CRAP!
Posted by: heid
» RE: well, all this crap about electric cars...CRAP!
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: well, all this crap about electric cars...CRAP!
Posted by: heid
» RE: well, all this crap about electric cars...CRAP!
Posted by: snowhound
» RE: well, all this crap about electric cars...CRAP!
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Nuclear is no better.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» RE: Nuclear is no better.
Posted by: Nedtheredhead
» RE: Nuclear is no better.
Posted by: Gulliver
» RE: Nuclear is no better.
Posted by: Nedtheredhead
» RE: Nuclear is no better.
Posted by: Gulliver
» RE: well, all this crap about electric cars...Nuclear is no better?
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» Haven't You Heard?
Posted by: staicnoise
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Posted by: solrev on Jun 25, 2007 5:54 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: the great energy scam
Posted by: Ben Furman
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Posted by: Farmertim on Jun 25, 2007 7:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a small biological/organic grower and provider of food I am very conscience of how much of a carbon footprint I am leaving growing my products.
I can't help but think if food was once again close by as it was 100 years ago it would offset a host of energy needs as well as fertilizer consumption given one could incorporate rotations as fertilizer instead of buying more oil to to the job.
Of course one would have to diversify and have animals in the mix but thats food too...
The core of the issue is that we need to stop for a while and rethink how we in this country live and rethink how to move things back to a localized food source, and not just see our cars as portals to anything, anytime we wish.
Communities need to begin to promote businesses that benifit a local supplier and not shift that tax deferment over to a mutinational for 6 years and then it pulls out to gain favor with another town with tax incentives.
It is up to us to rethink how we use the worlds resources, backs and health of poor nations peoples so we are truley sustainable not carried chicken back over the edge of ecological ruin..
Farmer Tim
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Posted by: Pat Kittle on Jun 25, 2007 7:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've said it before, I'll say it again -- even if we were all solar-powered bicycle-riding hemp-using vegan pacifists, we are STILL grotesquely unsustainably overpopulated.
Serious birth control will one day be the "DUH!!" humans finally stumble over.
In the meantime, keep grasping at straws! :-)
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» RE: Sixty seven hundred million apex techno-predators is just too damn many no matter what.
Posted by: joshthecaptain
» Without serious birth control, you're merely prolonging the collapse.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» RE: Without serious birth control, you're merely prolonging the collapse.
Posted by: eggnog2464
» Right you are.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» You didn't answer my recent question*, although I always answer yours. Maybe I shouldn't bother.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» Competition uber alles is a lie.
Posted by: Sojourner
» And overbreeding fuels competition. So why not remove the fuel?
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» The leadership coming from China impresses me most.
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: Benjaminsjw on Jun 25, 2007 8:22 AM
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Another point that the author makes is the use of fossil fuel based fertilizers in producing biofuels. This does not invalidate biofuels either. It merely shows that agriculture should become less dependant on artificial fertilizers. The organic residue from sewage plants could be used to fertilize the soil.
Agricultural equipment should of course run on biofuels as well.
Another idea would be to investigate the possibilities of double usage. Deep-frying fat can, after it has been discarded, be used to make bio-diesel.
But probably the most important point is that the acreage that is used to produce animal fodder is probably larger than the acreage that is used to grow consumer crops. If we would reduce our consumption of meat, we could use the freed acreage for growing biofuel.
After all, it's about the choices that we are willing to make.
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» You just answered your own question.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» Population Control
Posted by: Veronique
» RE: Population Control -- Well said, Veronique.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» Thanks PK
Posted by: Veronique
» Veronique, this is for your eyes only. [Warning to human chauvinists: Do not look! You are warned.]
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» Veronique, I apologize.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» RE: Why do these discussions always tend to become black and white?
Posted by: Zachria
» RE: Why do these discussions always tend to become black and white?
Posted by: Nedtheredhead
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Posted by: DrSuess on Jun 25, 2007 9:24 AM
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There are abandoned houses in the downtown, but people would rather move to the suburbs, kill some trees in building a new house, and then spend $50 a week on gasoline to get to work. This is currently the “American Way”.
Some months ago, there was an article on the death of the suburbs on AlterNet. High gas prices are eventually going to kill the suburbs and the morning and evening rush hours. The question is when, not whether. We are spending more and more on less sustainable projects. It is a question of time before the folly of this becomes blindingly apparent.
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Posted by: picket on Jun 25, 2007 9:33 AM
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Corn Wars Rage in Mexico...Biofuels push the source of cheap nutrition out of reach....corn flour has risen 400%. Tortillas became so unaffordable that people took to the streets.
http://www.thespec.com/News/CanadaWorld/article/211050
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Posted by: EinMD on Jun 25, 2007 9:57 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Second of all as far as the 'green panic' you're describing, ultimately we need non-poluting vehicles. But that isn't going to happen any time soon. Electric cars aren't going to happen because the automotive industry keeps blocking them. THere's a compressed air powered Air Car in production in France, but you're not going to see it over here because there's no money in it's production. H2 tech is still a -long- way away and while solar and wind power are cropping up occasionally they're not ready to take a decent share of power generation. Nuclear's still around ( and I support it ) but people are too affraid of another CHernobyl or a Jack Bauer scenario to allow a nuke plant in their neighborhood.
We've got to do something because Oil isn't getting any cheaper or more common and every war we start to get more only succeeds in further limiting the supply. Producing fuel from renewable sources such as woodchips, grass clippings, recycled wood waste from buildings, and other sources of growing things - still - outweighs Oil in the fact that oil is going to be gone some time very soon and it's not going to come back unless someone invents a time travelling Jurasic park. But using plant material we can grow more each season and the technology will improve over time. So all your arguments about how much energy expenditure you need to get a gallon of Ethanol ( and we sthould still be using Butanol ) are so much hot air. As technology improves the cost will drop, unlike with oil. You don't need to replace food crops with fuel crops. All it takes is some plant waste and some bacterial fermentation. So you can have your food and power your car with it too.
In fact that only major problem with Butanol that I've been able to uncover is that being only 7% soluble in water you really don't want it in your water supply since it's considered toxic. But then, you don't want Gasoline in your water supply either do ya?
So should we stop farming food? No, but we can use advanced farming techniques and use the inedible materials from what we harvest to create fuel. Turn waste products into a usable solution is a good idea and a hell of a lot better than just continuing the way we are and sticking our head in the oil soaked sand. Which is what all these 'anti green' types that keep cropping up seem to want - the status quo.
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» RE: nvironement, Green and Oil - Not good enough.
Posted by: heid
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Posted by: Trazom on Jun 25, 2007 10:08 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do these Einsteins really think this is going to make all that much of a difference? All it is going to do is line the pockets of a few more multinationals and conglomerates (and policians).
Here's a hint. Look at how our society has changed in the past 7 years. Ok, now what do you think it will look like in another 13? Who are they kidding?
People having to drive to work long distances from the suburbs? By that point globalization and outsourcing will long have since extinguished those jobs, taking care of that nicely. And if it doesn't, the coming economic financial/credit calamity that awaits us all will surely put a crimp in filling up the gas tanks.
Don't count on anything changing, except the increasing prices at the pump that will still enslave us except for the lucky few who have figured out self-sufficiency.
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» RE: Goin' Green - full of sound and fury yet signifying nothing
Posted by: eggnog2464
» RE: Goin' Green - full of sound and fury yet signifying nothing
Posted by: Dartagnan
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Posted by: saml on Jun 25, 2007 10:52 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is a great saying any lefty should keep in mind: Be careful what you witch for - you just might get it.
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» Thank you for pointing out how it's all our fault, and none of your own; we did witch for it.
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: Art on Jun 25, 2007 12:29 PM
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Hey, there'll be new plants and animals in a few million years. God knows how often this has happened all over the universe.
Will the cockroaches and ants slug it out in a bid for world domination? Will they have archeologists? Develop cars and industry even? Oops, here we go again. But a few million years later...
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» RE: There's always the future
Posted by: solrev
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Posted by: marid on Jun 25, 2007 12:47 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Only a step in the right direction
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
» NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO,
Posted by: mdruss42
» RE: NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO,
Posted by: Joeviocoe
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Posted by: willymack on Jun 25, 2007 1:38 PM
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Posted by: eggnog2464 on Jun 25, 2007 2:11 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only way to preserve our civilization is to radically cut back on consumption and reduce our population. After the recent G8 session, I gave up. No future for us or our civilization. My only hope that GW lives long enough to see his beloved Crawford turn to sand and dust (and even that is of little solace)....
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Posted by: pre-emptive impeachment on Jun 25, 2007 3:31 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Actually there's way more than enough land.
First it is important to distinguish between PV and solar thermal. PV or photovoltaics are usually silicon based cells, usually what comes to mind when people hear solar power.
Solar thermal on the otherhand has no solar collecting silicon. Instead it is either parabolic or spherical mirrors that focus the sun on a pipe that is usually carrying oil of some sort. A very simplified look shows that the heated oil then goes through a heat exchanger, which then heats steam, which is then fed into turbines which produce electricity. Very similar to every other power plant, just instead of using coal or natural gas to heat the steam it is using the sun for energy.
After the oil passes through the heat exchanger it is sent back out to be heated again, so none of the oil is burned as it is a closed loop.
Well in my solar engineering class we did some number crunching. The world consumes about 400 quads of energy. Interestingly the US alone consumes about 100 quads, or 1/4 of the worlds energy. Anyway, the amount of solar energy hitting New york State alone, assuming 7 hours of sunlight for 365 days a year is about 800 quads, or twice as much as the world consumes. Well that sounds mighty fantastic. But current large scale solar thermal and photovoltaics are in the ballpark of 20% efficient, which means we need an area 5 times the size of new york, or an area about the size of texas, or in the grand scheme of things 0.0000013% of the total land to meet the world's energy needs. Well, that still sounds mighty fantastic. It is important to mention, there are solar thermal systems set up with stirling engines that are 40% efficient, but I am unsure about efficiency upon massive upscaling (the ones I found were on the order of 1KW, which isn't very much).
When the sun isn't shining, say at night or during bad weather, wind power could be used as a back-up. There are also other energy storage devices such as batteries and hydrogen (through electrolysis) that could be used fuel cells, nanotechnology may (keyword is 'may' so please don't take that as a fact) play a big role increasing the energy density of batteries. Someone in New Jersey actually has a solar house with hydrogen fuel cell back up.
As for cars, tesla motors just released an all electric car with a range of 250 miles and 0-60 in about 3 seconds. GM had their electric car. So the technology is there, and the clean energy source, being solar and wind is also there. Also, just a side not. Even though our power plant system is pretty pollutive, it is less pollutive than gasoline and diesel, so it would be better, still not the best, to run our cars off electriciy instead of gas.
There is also passive solar and cooling that virtually eliminates the need for a mechanical HVAC system, saving oil and it's derivatives as well as electricity. If included in the design process or during a massive renovation, it adds minimal cost to the house.
So for solar thermal you are still going to need glass, metals, plastics, and oil (it may be possible to use a different energy transporter though). Theretically, it would seem that many of the building components could come from recycled good. Besides maintenance it's more or less a one time expenditure, unlike fossil fuels where you have to keep feeding fuel of some sort into the power plant. Which implies when looking at it in terms of it's life-cycle it will produce very little pollution when compared to fossil fuel power plants. Plus We are going to have a very difficult time finding something that uses zero resources.
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» Should read Area the size of new mexico not texas, my mistake...n/m
Posted by: pre-emptive impeachment
» RE: Should read Area the size of new mexico not texas, my mistake...n/m
Posted by: defiant
» very nicely summarized!
Posted by: counterpoint
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jun 25, 2007 3:40 PM
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Some of the comments above refer to population (an obvious limitation to growth in an enclosed space - like a planet's surface). Why has population grown so much? The most common explanation is that fossil fuels and industrial agriculture have provided food for people.
However, did people used to die of starvation in the past, in vast numbers? No. The main killer was infectious disease, which was poorly understood. When antibiotics and hygiene came along, many people who would otherwise have died in childhood ended up surviving and having children.
Industrial agriculture is a dead end, which has been shown by only half a century or so of the practive. Huge amounts of fossil fuels go into fertilzers, herbicides, pesticides, farm equipment, transportation and storage. The soil ends up stripped of all nutrients, but will recover given time.
If you want to have sustainable biofuels, you need sustainable agriculture, which means getting agriculture off fossil fuels. This is entirely possible using existing technologies (solar, wind, electric engines, etc.).
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» RE: The Real Hoax: industrial agriculture and the green revolution
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: The Real Hoax: industrial agriculture and the green revolution
Posted by: eggnog2464
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Posted by: electricwind on Jun 25, 2007 5:04 PM
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Posted by: monkeywrench on Jun 25, 2007 10:19 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These problems were being discussed in "The Population Bomb" by Paul Erlich, "The Limits to Growth," The Club of Rome, and others more than thirty years – THIRTY YEARS! – ago.
What both saddens me and fills me with dread for my children is that the very-same arguments, obfuscation and denial that greeted the work of those visionaries then are still operating today, even as we stare into the abyss.
In all of our cleverness and complication and what passes for civilization, we have not become wise, and that will be our undoing. We are on the same evolutionary path as the Dodo – and, like the Dodo, we're too dumb to know it.
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» RE: The Population Bomb and similar comments
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» As for sending the population bomb into outer space -- any other bright ideas?
Posted by: Pat Kittle
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Posted by: RedAaron on Jun 26, 2007 3:48 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One could argue that it wouldn't contribute much to the world's energy supply, but think of what it would do to reduce consumption!
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» RE: A Modest Biofuel Proposal
Posted by: Pat Kittle
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Posted by: richholland on Jun 26, 2007 4:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the 10.000 richest people in the states tomorrow die ..
nothing will change.
If tomorrow 10.000 nurses die the country is in trouble...
In Schweden 85% of the gas at the station is made of woodpulp..in Europe we think to burn food in your car is sick.
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Posted by: Vascabruta on Jun 26, 2007 11:27 AM
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linked text
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Posted by: sasquuatch55 on Jun 28, 2007 6:59 PM
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Posted by: Joeviocoe on Jun 28, 2007 8:34 PM
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The first paragraph alone shows its bias. No one with half a brain calls Biofuels a "replacement". The IPCC may be just a political wing for environmentalist, but they are some very serious scientist nonetheless. They ARE politically motivated but it doesn't take a genius to know that there is NO Replacement for our "growing exponentially" energy needs. Thats why it is a problem.
The word HOAX is subjective to what is being advertised. The first part of the article focuses on destroying the idea of "abundance". This is agreeable to me because when I say renewable, people hear abundant. If I have a solar array on my house, the energy is renewable. I can count on it being there pretty much forever, everyday 100 kwh per day consistently. Abundances getting as much energy to feed my growing need as if I could turn up the sun's output on my array. They are NOT the same. They say the same thing about global warming affecting the "global south". That UN mandated restrictions on pollution harm people in Africa by making electricity more expensive and forcing people to cook with open flame indoors (see the Great Global Warming Swindle) http://www.lse.co.uk/ShowStory.asp?story=CZ434669U
Okay.. Myth 1
Firstly, I hate statistics with hard numbers that don't have sources. Even at the bottom of Wiki pages you can find references to lookup, may not be worth anything but still.
Both examples of palm oil and ethanol crops were stated with clearing tropical rainforests to plant. That is obviously the most energy intensive way to make biofuel. Also, to clear land and deforest requires energy. The author probably counted the energy consumption to clear the land and automotive using gasoline since most heavy equipment does not use the biofuels (farmers don't use what they plan on selling for profit: see microeconomics). So they are dirtier than they need to be.
Lifecycle is a very interesting concept. Did the author count only the Carbon costs of the first gallon of biofuel versus the first gallon of gasoline. The point here would be the main benefit of the word "Renewable". The first gallon or barrel of product will be very expensive then you make good on production by producing more and more. The problem with petroleum is the SHORT lifecycle. Those "convienient numbers" like "50 percent more greenhouse gases" seems thrown together.
Clearing topical forest is a one time venture and is included but building the oil drilling infrastructure was not. C'MON.
Oil discovered, land or sea prep, drilling derek, pump, and/or platform, then the cost of operation. That is not energy free. The author probably did NOT take into account the energy costs beginning from finding the oil. He most likely just counted the production cost. Like refining and transportation.
Deforestation: One time
Burning: One time
Peat: Anually and only in wetland crops
(Peat is a fossil fuel and is also considered to be a biomass fuel)
I agree on the use of Petroluem Based Fertilizers to slowdown the release of NOx. Since NOx is 296 (not 300) times worse of a greenhouse gas.
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Posted by: Joeviocoe on Jun 28, 2007 8:34 PM
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Myth 2
Easy. Damn Brazilians. Money talks I'm afraid. The same thing goes for the Colombian cartels using thier leverage over farmers and land to gain profits. American forests are safe for now thanks to strict EPA, Dept. of Interior, and conservationalist. This is not so different from trying to drill for oil in ANWAR.
Myth 3
Yeah, BIG Oil again.... Gotta move fast. Those with power will only want to keep it. That, unfortunately is no different here. For now, you can buy from local producers. And you can make the stuff yourself with the proper stuff.
Myth 4
Who thought that! Everything you do causes hunger. The problem is much more indepth than most realize. Crops grown in the US are not shipped to Africa. When it is (Somalia 1993) the damn warlords gave it to soldiers instead of the starving people.
Myth 5
Well this one requires more thought. Some plants require more time and energy to yield a certain amount of gallons with a certain amount of energy density. The best plant is dependent on the soil and climate. There is no super biofuel plant. Some will be better than others in converting nutrients, water, and sunlight into biofuel.
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» RE: The 5 Myths (continued)
Posted by: Joeviocoe
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Posted by: richholland on Jul 2, 2007 4:44 AM
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Millions of people changed into GREEN.
So we save peak oil.
To day we learn 1/3 comes from France out of atomic factories, 1/3 from palmpits.
To grow these trees in Indonesia and Malesia they killed the apes (and some natives) and destroyed the rainforest
How stupid green leftis can be??
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» RE: GREEN GREEN OK OK
Posted by: Joeviocoe
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Posted by: tchii on Jul 2, 2007 3:51 PM
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But we have to make sure DuPont et. al. keep their profits up, even at the expense of our country/people/citizens/children.
Yes this is an extremely fuelish country. Of course hemp, perhaps because it would be so helpful to the individual farmers out there, is not even considered at this point because idiots, who didn't know any better, made it illegal (they were and still are call congressmen) and a fair number of them didn't even know what they were voting for (you see it was call marijhuana at the time and the idiots didn't know what that was), so you can see that our congress (we voted for these people?) has pretty much not changed since at least the later 1930's, as they vote to take away your rights, pork barrel their friends and screw the middle class...all without even completely reading the bills they are passing!
Namaste
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Posted by: Joeviocoe on Jul 2, 2007 11:32 PM
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I do not fault you for thinking this way. Left and right are two extremes nonetheless. I try to stay close to the fence while leaning to one side depending on the issue.
When people feel the urge to do good, they strive and do what they can. But since these things do not happen on their own, money must be involved. And although I am not a religious person, I do believe the "Money is the root of all evil".
It is a phrase seldom used properly. The "green leftis" generally do not understand that their movement has fallen into the hands of money people. This is how I believe it works.
1) Great idea. (Leftis say, "Lets use green energy")
2) Optimism runs away with itself (Everyone says, "Sure, we all can do it, the whole nation")
3) Public support gets attention of lawmakers and politicians (Mr. Mann says he is for going Green to get elected)
4) Policies give business opportunities to companies (Acme farming sees a way to make a lot of money)
5 The turn!!! (Acme farming, Inc. is far removed from having real ideals from step 1.
Since Acme Farming, Inc. does NOT share the ideals of the Leftis, it will do anything to make money on the Green movement. Including cutting down a rainforest or two.
So who is to blame?
The Left for not knowing their great idea would turn against them?
The company that never claimed to be green in the first place but only to provide the services promised?
Okay... so some of the people in this forum say lets blame the idea for not being fool proof. Since people will exploit it and the idea was not perfectly conceived lets throw out the whole thing.
"Biofuel is a HOAX" they say.
It is NOT A HOAX!!!
It is difficult.
It is not possible to replace everything with
It will only help a little bit in some applications
It will be exploited by ruthless people and organizations
It will be mocked by people who don't want to try.
DONT Stop biofuel... STOP the idiots doing dirty things to bring us clean things.
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Posted by: OscarR on Jul 3, 2007 8:25 AM
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http://www.tni.org/detail_pub.phtml?&know_id=188
and
http://grain.org/seedling/?id=476
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Posted by: Joeviocoe on Jul 3, 2007 12:48 PM
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The good news is that we biodiesel users have a choice of our biodiesel source. Grown in the US not on some huge industrialized agrofarm, but made from some feedstock, or wasted cooking oil, or other local sources.
You CAN'T do that with petroluem. You can't decide to get your oil from somewhere else. Your stuck feeding into the cycle.
This is another gold rush people... Everyone knows that peak oil is apon us and biofuels is the next big thing. It won't last forever either. If I told someone in 1904 that oil wouldn't be abundant anymore after only 100 years then they would laugh at me. Biofuels is a great subsidy for energy while we develop better stuff like solar and Fusion energy. It might take another 50 to 100 years but the sun is living proof of what is possible.
So to recap:
Say NO to large scale agrofarming which results in deforestation, high emmisions (NOx) from fertilizers, killing the land and people, and all the other nastiness.
But say YES to local farming on small scales that conform with strict guidelines RENEWABLE AND SUSTAINABLE production.
The Global South (Indonesia, Africa, Brazil, Etc.) are doing it wrong and making things worse not better. AGREED!! But we CAN do it RIGHT.
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Posted by: Joeviocoe on Jul 7, 2007 12:08 AM
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If we (mankind) survive the next hundred years (maybe more) then I think we may survive the next thousand (maybe more). Many people here are saying that population control is the only way. It might work on the small scale in some areas but you must understand that mankind is like every other aggressive organism on the planet. Humans will expand to every corner. We are a vapor. It is in our nature. Why is it we feel the instinct to be parents in the first place. Not because children are cool to have. Why is the sexual urge (especially in men) the most powerful force within us. Not because sex is awesome (it is but that is not the point). Nature's intention is for mankind to procreate as much as possible.
Here is the turn...
THe Industrial revolution changed everything. Populations are booming like never before and it is truly an exponential curve. So technology gave us the ability to live longer, travel further, and have more children survive childhood. Technology needs to clean up this mess too. Our human nature will not allow us to go backward. Only a natural disaster on a global scale could force us to.
I do admire those here that want to reduce consuption and walk more. I really do. But I cannot expect the rest of the world to suddenly change human nature. That wouldn't be realistic.
Here is the solution as I see it:
1) Mankind looks to as many alternative energy sources as possible. (Edison said that when he tried and failed to make the light bulb, that he wasn't discouraged because he found another way NOT to make a light bulb, but he needed ONLY ONE WAY to make it work).
2) Scrap by the next hundred years doing a little less damage to the environment and slowing down consumption growth.
3) Develop Nuclear fusion that uses only abundant Hydrogen isotopes (not that Tritium stuff because lithium is needed). You cant argue that E=MC2 is not enough energy either. We just need to reduce the needed energy to start and maintain the reaction. 50 -100 years is long to wait for this so expect breakthroughs in the next 10 to 20 years.
4) Use Fusion for power plants and solar cells for small application. Battery technology for anything that is mobile.
5) As we move more and more into space, Hydrogen is more, and more abundant. With abundant energy sources in space more and more people can establish residence there. This will be the new frontier for the population boom. The subsuburbs if you will.
6) Antimatter (500 years maybe)- this will require revolutions in quantum physics to understand the nature of gravity (we still don't know) and what particle are truly made of. We can make antimatter now but only for a instant and it requires much speed. The laws of physics are our side though. The required energy to make antimatter is circumstantial compared to the potential energy output.
Mankind's history will be define by it's ages. the dark ages might reoccur in a new form but if we survive, the enlightenment that follows will be all the more magnificent.
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