COMMENTS: 155
The Property Cops: Homeowner Associations Ban Eco-Friendly Practices
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A local Board of Architectural Review refused to issue the Saracheks a permit for the solar apparatus, having received a letter from at least 15 neighbors -- among them doctors, lawyers and other presumably well-educated people -- arguing that the panels "would clearly be an eyesore in our lovely Quaker Ridge neighborhood."
This March -- four months, $20,000 in extra construction and legal costs, and 107 petition signatures later, and after agreeing to plant a screen of trees to hide their "eyesore" -- the Saracheks finally got the board's decision reversed. On a 4-3 vote, the victory was a squeaker. But it meant that the prosperous Village of Scarsdale, where the average house is valued at $834,000, would see its first solar panels ever.
HOAs: blocking the green path
On April 14, in more than 1,400 locations from coast to coast, Americans rallied around the goal of reducing carbon emissions by 80 percent within the next four decades. On April 22, the San Francisco Chronicle's Earth Day editorial spoke for millions of us when it urged, "The whole planet, with billions of people and scores of governments, must work together on the same page. It's the only way to curb the global threats of rising temperatures, dirty air and polluted and life-depleted oceans. One day in late April isn't enough."
But too many cities, counties, towns and subdivisions are still working off the wrong "page" by banning ecologically sound practices and even mandating consumption and waste. Rooted in outdated aesthetics and plain old snobbery, those regulations make less sense than ever on a planet in peril.
The Saracheks and other Scarsdale residents live under citywide architectural restrictions, but 57 million Americans -- approaching one person out of five -- live in homes regulated by homeowner associations (HOAs). These private groups hold sway not only in gated havens of the rich but in many more modest neighborhoods as well.
HOA boards of directors are usually elected by residents, but their architectural review committees often are not. They have sweeping powers to enforce so-called restrictive covenants, which can control almost any aspect of the property, from the size of the house or garage down to details like changes in paint color or placement of basketball hoops. When a house is sold, the covenant goes with it.
The Community Associations Institute cites polls showing that 78 percent of homeowners belonging to HOAs believe the rules they live under "protect and enhance" property values. And when it comes to enforcing neighborhood behavior, it's what people believe that counts.
Many homeowners' associations post their covenants on their websites for the convenience of members. Doing some simple searches, I recently found and read a few dozen such documents. They are often highly detailed in describing what is allowed, what is not and what happens if you don't do what you're supposed to do or fail to do what they require.
I was looking for rules that affect a home's environmental footprint, and there were plenty. The most common restrictions were ones that prohibit drying clothes outdoors (effectively forcing the use of electric or gas dryers), forbid or restrict the placement of solar devices, dictate industrial-style lawn and landscape care or set a minimum square footage of floor space. Most also ban political signs, which itself can be an important environmental issue.
HOA documents are littered with those and a host of other bans on earth-friendly practices. Here are excerpts, taken directly from HOA covenants, that illustrate the kinds of prohibitions being enforced across the country:
Westerley subdivision in Sterling, Va.: "Solar panels and solar collectors are prohibited."
Camelot in Cottleville, Mo.: "Exterior solar collection systems, wind generator systems or other similar appliances are prohibited."
Peach Creek in Lisle, Ill.: "Compost piles may not be created on any properties ... A window fan is never allowed to be placed in the front windows of a home."
Quail Cove in Tucson, Ariz.: "Outdoor clotheslines are not permitted." (in a region where the great outdoors is like the inside of a clothes dryer!)
Crest Mountain in Asheville, N.C.: "The following are precluded: Outside clotheslines or clothes drying ... window air conditioning units ... vegetable gardens ..."
Tavistock Farms in Leesburg, Va.: "Vegetable gardens must not exceed 64 square feet." (With no more than 8 feet by 8 feet for growing vegetables, should they really be calling this place "farms"?)
Sun Valley in Waldorf, Md.: "No awnings in the front of the house will be allowed."
Suppression of clotheslines has probably received more attention over the past few years than any other type of anti-green restriction. Despite renewed interest in "solar drying," highlighted each April 19 by National Hanging Out Day, HOAs across the country are retaining their laundry-line prohibitions -- reflecting, say critics, their deep-seated prudishness and class bias.
People rarely confront HOAs directly over clothesline rules; most either conform or covertly disobey. Alice (not her real name) lives in the Lakeside Estates subdivision of Austin, Texas. Because her HOA bans outdoor clothes drying, Alice told me by email, she slips out to her back yard on summer mornings with one of those expanding "umbrella"-style clotheslines, puts it up, and hangs her laundry: "I put things out and try to get them in as soon as I can. I don't leave my clothesline out when it isn't in use."
Alice has received no warnings from her HOA -- yet. But you wouldn't expect such guerilla-style energy conservation to be necessary in laid-back Austin. Alice says, "Yeah, usually people think of Austin and they think of relaxed attitudes. But I think since the housing market boomed, it has made people a lot less relaxed."
Evidence to back up her theory can be found just across town, beyond the northwest corner of Austin's city limits in the middle-class suburb of Hunter's Chase. There, Jason and Lisa Spangler have been maintaining a garden of native wildflowers and other plants in their front yard for years. But they almost lost their native plantings in August 2002, when they received a violation notice on behalf of their HOA.
Jason told me, "Someone came by on a 'random inspection,' taking pictures, and thought it was some sort of grass and weeds." The Spanglers faced legal action if they didn't mow it all down.
They stood their ground, and the showdown came at a meeting of the municipal utility district that enforces the rules in Hunter's Chase. At the meeting, characterized by Spangler as "very unpleasant," he and Lisa were asked how they could have something "so ugly" in their front yard. No one seemed impressed that they used no herbicides, insecticides or fertilizers on their wildflower garden. "One board member said she had an art degree," said Jason, "and she could see that 'texture' of our yard just didn't look right."
To the board's chagrin, the Spanglers had backed up their claims with extensive documentation from the Native Plant Society of Texas. Lisa says board members resented what they saw as an intrusion by out-of-towners: "They asked, 'How much did you pay these people?'" But, said Jason, the evidence was overwhelming, and "they had no choice but to approve the garden."
Mandating consumption
West of Austin, in more drought-prone parts of the American West, lawns remain the rule. Although xeriscaping -- water-conserving landscape design -- is becoming more common, one developer recently told the Colorado Springs Gazette that for the most part, "There's no question. People want green, nice, good-looking sod."
Even if they don't want it, their HOA might well force it on them. And environmentally questionable rules can intrude well beyond the front lawn. For example, by mandating minimum square footages, many associations are helping pump up the already-bloated American home.
A 2005 articlein the Journal of Industrial Ecology showed that a very well-insulated 3,000-square-foot house consumes more energy than a poorly insulated 1,500-square-footer. And building a 25 percent smaller house saves more trees than are saved by using advanced wood-efficient construction techniques.
The average U.S. house in the 1970s had 1,500 square feet; by 2006, the typical house was heating and air conditioning almost 2,500 square feet, despite having fewer people living in it. The average home today has three times as much living space per person as in the 1950s . Many HOAs want to keep those numbers going up.
Here are some more typical passages from covenants imposed by HOAs in several states, each mandating some kind of stepped-up resource consumption or pollution:
Piedmont community in Pine Mountain, Ga.: "Size and square footage of heated and conditioned space: A minimum 2,750 square feet."
Cobblestone in Wichita, Kan.: "Minimum living area excluding the basement: Single level -- 1,800 square feet. Two level -- 2,000 square feet [with] central heating and air conditioning ... Seeded or sodded grass lawn on entire lot." Also "minimum of two car garage -- concrete driveway" (no cobblestone driveways in Cobblestone!)
Van Zandt Farms in Haslet, Texas: "Sprinklers shall be installed in the front yard of each residence."
Eagle Point Golf Community near Medford, Ore.: "Lawns shall be watered, fertilized and sprayed for weeds and/or insects and diseases as needed to keep them healthy and green. They shall be mowed on a regular basis."
Applewood Park in Tigard, Ore.: "... a mowed lawn that is regularly fertilized and is free of weeds and debris, ... including clover and dandelions." (This is followed by a helpful hint: "There is a product called 'Bayer' that works well for removing clover.")
Covington Estates in Fishers, Ind.: "Each lot shall maintain at least two continuous dusk-to-dawn lights ..."
Franklin Green in Franklin, Tenn.: "Each residence shall include an attached garage for a minimum of two cars and a maximum of three cars."
Bent Tree West in Dallas, Texas: "Any garages, servants' quarters, storage rooms, or carports erected or placed on any portion of said lot must be attached to the main structure ... garages shall provide a space for a minimum of two conventional automobiles." (servants' quarters?)
Penalties for breaking such rules can range from small fines to foreclosure and loss of the home. Anti-HOA activists maintain lengthy lists of cases in which families have been foreclosed upon -- like the Orlando, Fla., woman whose house was put up for sale because she hadn't paid $108 in association dues.
The Peach Creek Homeowners Association guidelines, which say they "exist for the benefit of our community to help maintain property values," are typical, stating that a homeowner who commits a fifth offense and owes $200 or more in fines is subject to "legal action and/or forcible entry and eviction."
In an apparent attempt to provide some reassurance, the document speaks in the voice of Big Brother: "If a homeowner is found in violation of a rule, regulation or guideline and fined, remember this action is taken because the majority of homeowners in Peach Creek consider it to be just and proper."
Some states crack down
State legislatures are starting to rein in HOAs that try to ban environmentally responsible practices. At least 12 states have adopted laws that guarantee the right to erect solar equipment, although most of them permit HOAs to enforce "reasonable" conditions.
Hawaii, for example, passed a law in 2005 that ensures a right to solar energy. The legislation grew out of experiences like that of Matthew Calloni of 'Ewa Beach, who fought a yearlong legal battle with his HOA to put a solar water heater on his townhouse. And a bill was introduced in the U.S. House of Representatives in March that, if passed, will protect homeowners nationwide from HOA solar bans.
Many HOAs rules forbid panels anywhere but on the rear of the house, flat against the roof. If the rear part of your roof doesn't face south or is in the shade, that's tough. Now before the Arizona legislature is a bill, HB 2593, that would prevent HOAs from requiring solar panels to be positioned inefficiently or in expensive locations.
Florida is one of the more progressive states in curbing HOA abuses, with legislation guaranteeing citizens the right to have solar panels, use clotheslines, and plant non-grass front yards, overruling any neighborhood policies to the contrary. Joanne Oliver of Ponce Inlet, Fla., was a highly successful realtor in Miami for 15 years. I asked her to imagine that she were showing a house in one of the upscale communities where she had handled properties and that the house next door sported solar equipment on the roof, a line full of laundry in the rear, and a front yard covered with tall native plants. Would that affect the price of the neighboring house she's trying to sell?
"Solar panels," she told me, "would not be a negative these days. And a different kind of front yard, yes, I think people might tend to go for that. That could catch on. But clotheslines!" -- here, she couldn't stop laughing -- "I can't remember the last time I saw a clothesline in Miami. That just doesn't happen. Wait, I have seen one clothesline recently -- behind my mother's house in Ohio!"
Local control, bad and good
The simplest way to stay out of trouble with HOA property cops, of course, is to live in a neighborhood that doesn't have private covenants. My city of Salina, Kan., is like many communites in having some restrictive subdivisions but a much larger territory that remains free.
Our house is in the covenant-free zone. We wake up each morning to the crowing of roosters that belong to neighbors across the alley. (The birds aren't quite legal, but nobody complains.) A couple of streets over, other neighbors have painted the entire front of their house as an American flag. Protruding from the south side of our own house is a solar water-heating apparatus that would almost certainly give those meddlesome Scarsdale aesthetes a case of the hives.
In much of America, this live-and-let-live attitude is still the rule. Lisa and Jason Spangler told me they'd never had neighbors complain about their non-lawn in Austin. In fact, said Jason, "Neighbors walking by often stop and compliment our prairie flowers." It was an overzealous HOA bureaucracy, not the community itself, that tried to kill their garden.
University of Arizona associate professor Paul Robbins says that the key point of his book "Lawn People," expected out in June, is to show that the economy and the culture cannot be meaningfully separated and that "it is this blurring that so marks contemporary capitalist urban ecologies."
As he put it to me, his work shows that "distinctions between the meaning of our lives and the values of our properties are often intermingled and difficult to distinguish. There are clear tensions between our many contradictory desires; we want to be good citizens, good consumers, and good environmental stewards -- a triumvirate that may simply be materially unachievable."
Even homeowners who put being a "good consumer" a distant third among those three desires will find that consumption remains the housing industry's No. 1 concern. When real estate values are considered as crucial as they are in the America of 2007, it doesn't matter what real people in real neighborhoods prefer. Players who have a big stake in the game have little tolerance for anything that smacks of green frugality.
Anti-environmental HOA restrictions are part of a larger problem: the growing power of such "private governments" to control people's use of their own property. But if the tide of ecological destruction's going to be turned, then flag-waving, don't-tread-on-me appeals to property rights, while helpful in some cases, will turn out to be a big hindrance in others.
If a neighborhood wants to outlaw four-car garages or ban daily lawn sprinkling during a water shortage, only the most fanatical property-rights crusaders are likely to object. But what if a more farsighted HOA decides to ban all toxic lawn chemicals or silence the shriek of leaf blowers in the fall (or maybe declare its streets off-limits to Hummers!)?
I'd want to live under regulations like those, and you might also, but there are plenty of people who'd fight hard for their right to blow leaves and spray weeds, just as hard as you or I would fight for the right to put a "Let's Get Out of Iraq" sign in the front yard.
A struggle to defend private property is always sure to draw broad support from across the political spectrum; however, resistance by environmentally minded homeowners will have to be mounted collectively and on the merits of the issues themselves, not just as a fight for property rights.
Meanwhile, here are suggestions for those living under the rule of HOAs: Resistance to clothesline bans is being led by Project Laundry List. There is a highly informative guide [PDF] to dealing with restrictions on solar equipment; some information on green landscaping, including how to deal with restrictions; or how about an edible front yard?
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Posted by: EagleMB on Apr 26, 2007 12:34 AM
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» RE: What is it with you people and government regulations?
Posted by: kman242
» RE: What is it with you people and government regulations?
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: What is it with you people and government regulations?
Posted by: billfaster
» RE: What is it with you people and government regulations?
Posted by: elfinito
» RE: But there is no norm...
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: What is it with you people and government regulations?
Posted by: sheena2u
» RE: What is it with you people and government regulations?
Posted by: EagleMB
» The problem, of course...
Posted by: Allison
» RE: The problem, of course...
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: The problem, of course...You
Posted by: Krain61
» RE: The problem, of course...You
Posted by: sheena2u
» RE: The problem, of course...You
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: The problem, of course...
Posted by: xconservative
» HOAs ARE government
Posted by: Beck
» RE: HOAs ARE government (no they are not)
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: HOAs ARE government (no they are not)
Posted by: Krain61
» RE: HOAs ARE government (no they are not)
Posted by: EagleMB
» I suppose you'd prefer NO regulations. Republican "administration" is pathetic!
Posted by: thistleblower
» I'd never buy or even rent in a HOA area
Posted by: Dan Metcalf
» RE: I suppose you'd prefer NO regulations. Republican "administration" is pathetic!
Posted by: EagleMB
» You're missing one BIG part...
Posted by: Theodore
» RE: You're missing one BIG part...
Posted by: drmeow
» RE: You're missing one BIG part...
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: You're missing one BIG part...
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: You're missing one BIG part...
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» RE: You're missing one BIG part...
Posted by: EagleMB
» Wal-Mart Completes Me
Posted by: eddie torres
» RE: Wal-Mart Completes Me (Huh)
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: Wal-Mart Completes Me (Huh)
Posted by: blitzmesser
» RE: Wal-Mart Completes Me
Posted by: Krain61
» Things change asshole...like, umm, new knowledge of global warming
Posted by: psychochurch
» RE: Things change asshole...like, umm, new knowledge of global warming
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: Things change asshole...like, umm, new knowledge of global warming
Posted by: Krain61
» RE: What is it with you people and government regulations?
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: What is it with you people and government regulations?
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: What is it with you people and government regulations?
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: What is it with you people and government regulations?
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: What is it with you people and government regulations?
Posted by: Krain61
» RE: What is it with you people and government regulations?
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Apr 26, 2007 3:46 AM
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It sounds like some of these people should have seen it coming...If you move to a place like Quail Ridge Commons Manor or Whispering Willowy Pines Estates, what do you expect?
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Posted by: ateo on Apr 26, 2007 3:50 AM
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The reasons are obvious. The solution is even more obvious. If you don't want to be beholden to the tyranny of the majority in a housing association you simply have to live somewhere that doesn't have them. Since most of those places tend to be outside of the suburbs you'll probably be living a more "ecologically friendly" life style anyway if indeed that is your goal.
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» Very good point! image the ChemLawn leakage
Posted by: thistleblower
» RE: It's all about property values obviously
Posted by: Xynyx
» You can't have it both ways
Posted by: ateo
» Sometimes you can have it both ways
Posted by: xconservative
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Posted by: bttl on Apr 26, 2007 4:17 AM
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They'd be horrified by where I live- houses are built in whatever style anyone chooses(mine is mostly recycled), I have solar panels and a wind gen, the geese mow the "lawn", the clothesline is in use year-round(even in winter sometimes), gardens abound, chickens and ducks amble about- how low class...... just think what it must be doing to my property value- I stay awake at night fretting about it all the time......:)
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» And where is it that you live? In the U.S.?
Posted by: olderworker
» RE: And where is it that you live? In the U.S.?
Posted by: debedb
» RE: And where is it that you live? In the U.S.? YES!
Posted by: WitchyNy
» RE: And where is it that you live? In the U.S.?
Posted by: bttl
» RE: And where is it that you live? In the U.S.?
Posted by: DaBear
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Posted by: UnEasyOne on Apr 26, 2007 4:23 AM
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» Those who seek power are the last ones who should have it
Posted by: Allison
» RE: I'm not sure these HOAs really have much to do with majority will
Posted by: DaBear
» Those people run American from top to bottom
Posted by: ateo
» Busy Bodies
Posted by: Sparks56
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Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line on Apr 26, 2007 4:40 AM
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» RE: 57 million
Posted by: oregoncharles
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Posted by: greentime on Apr 26, 2007 4:47 AM
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I suppose they want us to care about them too while they continue to waste all the resources, stealing even more from the rest of us. Wasn't it enough to hog the corporate profits and lower our wages so they could live like little kings and queens? Now they want to use up all the resources because they think solar panels are unattractive.
SOLAR PANELS ARE BEAUTIFUL!!!!! GORGEOUS!!!
WINDMILLS ARE GRACEFUL AND ELEGANT!
These people are big nothings.
And as the "BIG NOTHING" song goes...
"I NEVER KNEW HOW BIG NOTHING COULD BE!"
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Posted by: danielbu on Apr 26, 2007 5:15 AM
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» Tell that to the dead sea and the negev. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» for danielbu
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» I think the plural for kibbutz is kibbuztim n/m
Posted by: AdamG
» You could start with
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» water use is key in Israel & Palestine, not solar power
Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: Glad to live in a progressive place
Posted by: Mr. Terrific
» Well, you see, Daniel...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» most of Israel is in violation of international law, not to mention
Posted by: psychochurch
» Psychochurch=ingorant, uninformed hater
Posted by: SKPython
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Apr 26, 2007 5:59 AM
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Screw 'em. Same thing will happen to these "commies" that has, is, or will happen with the big boys--eventually folks will revolt or move, and the establishment will either change or rot from the inside.
Simply can't stomach the thought of living among people who think they have a right to tell me what to do with property I own. Humans aren't programmed to be subjects, and Western-style liberty is a hard, hard bell to un-ring.
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» RE: Homeowners associations: the weeeeeest widdle Communists on the pwanet.
Posted by: oregoncharles
» Meh. Folks will live under the rules they are willing to tolerate.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
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Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on Apr 26, 2007 6:12 AM
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» RE: A phrase never seen in print before...
Posted by: Habaro
» RE: A phrase never seen in print before...
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: A phrase never seen in print before...
Posted by: xgroverx
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Apr 26, 2007 6:15 AM
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Posted by: jmb2087 on Apr 26, 2007 6:20 AM
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If you can afford to build a home in an area with average home prices of $834K, I’m guessing you know how to read. This article sounds more like someone who didn’t do their homework got bit in the a@# for their own negligence.
I have lived in areas with HOAs, and without. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, but neither is wrong. It's a matter of choosing what's right for you. If you like structure and more secure property values provided by neighborhood compliance, move into one. If you want more freedom, move elsewhere. If you want COMPLETE freedom, GET SERIOUS, it doesn't exist. There are such things as codes, laws, and ordinances that everyone must follow even outside of an HOA. Freedom and democracy are not synonymous with lawlessness or anarchy.
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» Times are changing
Posted by: Allison
» HOAs are bullies hiding behind legalese
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: HOAs are bullies hiding behind legalese
Posted by: jmb2087
» Get with it. This was not a call to abolish HOA, regardless of their merits, or a lack thereof.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Get with it. This was not a call to abolish HOA, regardless of their merits, or a lack thereof.
Posted by: jmb2087
» RE: Get with it. This was not a call to abolish HOA, regardless of their merits, or a lack thereof.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
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Posted by: redbrownandblueparty on Apr 26, 2007 6:22 AM
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Posted by: WitchyNy on Apr 26, 2007 6:29 AM
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How cool and sexy it is to have a clothesline, a flock of chickens, a compost pile (I have a tumbler one...no smell..and I painted it a pretty light green).
an organic garden, and solar panels....the mainstream has just not caught up yet.
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» It's odd when folks complain about the smell of anything organic. What smells worse than ChemLawn?
Posted by: Beck
» RE: As the Governor of California says-
Posted by: tlCampbell
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Posted by: CriminallySane on Apr 26, 2007 6:51 AM
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The flip side of that is the real solution. Homeowners' association rules are trumped by even the smallest municipality's laws. Run for local office, pass something saying that no association can restrict solar energy devices (or whatever) to any extent short of preventing a hazard.
The problem is, it takes involvement. On an ongoing basis, not just once in a while. And forget petitions. No one reads them.
As an aside, if I had the bucks, I'd move into one of those restricted 'burbs and paint my house fluorescent lime green with orange trim and a purple garage door, or some other equally ludicrous combination, in order to challenge the color restrictions on 1st Amendment grounds. (All the while giving thanks that while I was inside my own house, I would not have to look at it.)
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Posted by: nosylae on Apr 26, 2007 6:51 AM
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Most HOA are situated outside of cities and commercially zoned areas. All those "pro-environment" rebels catching fines for clotheslines and wild flower front lawns HAVE TO DRIVE EVERYWHERE to get their soy caramel lattes and locally grown broccoli.
Gimme a break! If "those people" ("who you calling 'those people'" in the voice of Biff and Buffy Whitebread) really cared about the environment, they would not choose to live in a 3,000 sqft home, which costs $500 or more a month to heat and centrally air condition, with a mandated two car garage, which they feel compelled to fill with gas guzzling, monster sized SUVs.
Go live in a city or a mixed zone area! Try walking or riding your bike to most places. And don't tell me that most Americans can't afford it. I'm talking about Biff and Buffy who spend $800K on a way too large house. They can afford it. And they should. You can't be environmentally friendly and still want to live like that in a HOA.
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» People who have money can afford to be ...discerning
Posted by: ateo
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Posted by: antiapathy on Apr 26, 2007 6:55 AM
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Yes, HOAs are bad, but people who truly care for the environment would never build a house out on the urban fringe to begin with.
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» They do it urban areas too
Posted by: tscox
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Posted by: jmb2087 on Apr 26, 2007 7:17 AM
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And I've read HOAs before a purchase before. It takes very little effort to zero in on architectural guidelines. You can easily tell if there are a lot of restrictions, or just same basics. You DON'T need an attorney if you're of average intelligence. And I've never seen any fine print - it's pretty much all Times New Roman 12pt
Ironically, I'm not a huge fan of HOAs and find if funny I'm here defending them. I'm just sick of everyone blaming everyone else because they make irresponsible decisions and don't read things before they sign. When you click okay to a terms of service online agreement, it's a pretty big difference from plunking down the largest sum of money you'll ever spend in your life on a house or condo. We're not talking about a $30 t-shirt here. People need to start taking some freaking responsibility for themselves these days. It's not everyone elses fault when they screw up.
If you want to live in an HOA and don't like what you see, participate in the community and exact change. It's the same as society as a whole. If you don't want to do that, don't complain when others make your choices for you.
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» RE: How about a Reverse Sliding Scale?
Posted by: db
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Posted by: DrSuess on Apr 26, 2007 7:39 AM
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Posted by: counterpoint on Apr 26, 2007 7:49 AM
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It will be one big HOA, and not everybody will be happy.
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» Rockefeller bros. threw in the towel on solving housing problems in the 1940s. Welcome to the dump.
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: sunflwrmoonbeam on Apr 26, 2007 7:52 AM
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For the record, I have ever intention of lobbying to get rid of that clothesline rule.
I wouldn't have bought with a more restrictive HOA, because I find it utterly ridiculous. But not every single HOA neighborhood is snooty and obsessed with conformity. My neighborhood is made up mostly of young professionals and academics who are buying their first house. No house in the neighborhood is worth more than $175,000, and no one could construe these as McMansions.
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» RE: Not all HOA's are terrible
Posted by: sheena2u
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Posted by: mcstewey on Apr 26, 2007 8:27 AM
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Posted by: eosrk on Apr 26, 2007 8:41 AM
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Yet you buy that 500hp sports car, or that thing called a hummer, you don't want a nuclear plant in your state, don't want solar panels or wind turbines on your properties on fears it drives down your property value, but yet you want everything for nothing!
You guys of these suburban heavens do the rest of us a favor and just shut the hell up and take it up the ass, for it's you that makes it hard the rest of us cause you're too damned worried about how your bland neighboorhoods look!
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Posted by: Bobsays on Apr 26, 2007 8:49 AM
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I have always lived in high density places. I have always walked or ridden my bike. You meet more interesting people that way. As for all the monster homes, which ironically are most plentiful in that socialist paradise to the north, Canada, we won't see them stop until we see the end of cheap credit.
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» RE: Dockers-wearing lamos populate the 'burbs
Posted by: babs
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Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle on Apr 26, 2007 9:08 AM
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Posted by: Theodore on Apr 26, 2007 9:22 AM
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Posted by: Scientz on Apr 26, 2007 9:28 AM
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It makes me advocate completely irrational things like wanting to cause physical pain to busybodies who sit on HOAs.
Breathe... Breeeeeathe...
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Posted by: Kitty Lady Oregon on Apr 26, 2007 9:31 AM
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» RE: HOA Phooey!
Posted by: sunflwrmoonbeam
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Posted by: shinseiji on Apr 26, 2007 9:54 AM
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Not uncoincidentally, suburbs - with the exceptions of hoity-toity liberal ones like Marin Co. (CA) - are usually the key centers of right wing reactionary politics in the US. The last refuge of the willfully ignorant.
Time for suburbanites to grow up and join the rest of humanity. The 19th century was over a long, long time ago already.
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» But Wal-Mart Completes Me
Posted by: eddie torres
» RE: But Wal-Mart Completes Me
Posted by: bifheart
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Posted by: dayahka on Apr 26, 2007 10:22 AM
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» RE: Oh, My Heart is Bleeding
Posted by: davidbdr
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Posted by: LRayn on Apr 26, 2007 10:51 AM
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I happen to live in a 1400 square foot townhome (including the garage) within 15 minutes walking distance from the historic downtown area of my city. My townhome complex has a HOA. This complex is one of the few affordable home options where I live. I walk and bicycle everywhere within the city. I am a low income person. HOAs are not only for the rich.
Luckily, the Arizona legislature has seen fit to allow solar devices and political signs. I have been working on convincing several members of my city council to pass an ordinance allowing ecologically sustainable practices everywhere in the city, such as drying clothes outdoors, installing wind turbines, keeping small flocks of chickens, etc.
Why not spend your time and energy making the world a better place? The book "Superbia!" has lots of great suggestions for how to turn your neighborhood into a sustainable community. In addition, permaculture enthusiasts are also working to demontrate how suburban homes and yards can be transformed into small sustainable homesteads.
I would also love to see HOAs and cities mandating environmentally friendly practices, limiting the maximum square footage of homes, etc.
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» RE: Why do so many of you seem so bitchy?
Posted by: djnoll
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Posted by: djnoll on Apr 26, 2007 11:04 AM
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Most homeowners did not worry too much about these restrictions while homes were still under construction, what with the mess of construction and all, but it was only when the subdivisions were done and they wanted to start making changes to their homes that they found out about this HOA being set up by the developer and that it was going to continue the covenants that they thought were only to be temporary. Often the original HOA directors were staff representatives who were still selling the last of the homes and lots, and actual homeowners had very little say in the process, because these corporate shills always seemed to outnumber them and demanded compliance with the building covenants and codes as justification. Many homeowners did not even know that many of these covenants were not part of building codes or zoning regulations to begin with, and only became enforceable when enough homeowners had bought into a subdivision and agreed to them as part of the sale agreement. It was a way for the developers to control how much they could ask for a property by being able to use existing properties that were occupied as sales tools. Worse yet, for new homeowners who did not want to stay, they had trouble selling their homes because they were in HOA developments.
Personally, I think every HOA should be banned legally and the rights of the individual to protect their property and how they use it should be accepted as part of being a citizen. Sure, on occasion you get the jerk who thinks no one matters but him/her, but face it, that is just life, and there are legal remedies that do not put a person's home at risk of seizure by someone else over a few dollars. Here in Arizona, one HOA tried to seize the home of a single mother who was dying of cancer and had gotten behind in both her mortgage and HOA dues. She had gone back to work after chemotherapy, paid up her mortgage, only to find that for a little over $300 the HOA was moving to evict her and her children. She got the local media involved, and a fund was set up that paid for her HOA dues, and helped her care for her children. She passed away a few months later, and the children's guardian was able to sell the home so that her equity went to her children not the HOA. Anyone who thinks an HOA is anything more than greed personified is being both naive and foolish, especially if they choose to live a subdivision that has one.
http://www.standanddeliveramerica.com
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» RE: HOA's a Developer's Scam
Posted by: Doug in Mount Vernon
» RE: HOA's a Developer's Scam
Posted by: xconservative
» RE: HOA's a Developer's Scam
Posted by: djnoll
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Posted by: Sushi on Apr 26, 2007 11:35 AM
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Some of the older homes here have passive, sun-heated water panels on the roof. Our windows open wide to collect breezes and we have polished terrazzo floors which hold the cool temps, it's like walking on a solid slab of marble. (Once fashionable, they fell out of favor when carpet came into vogue.) Now they are fashionable again!
After Hurricane Wilma, the ONLY way to dry our clothes was to hang them in the sun. We forget (or never knew) how sweet-smelling sun-dried clothes smell. Actually, the ultraviolet kills bacteria, which is the source of body odors. I continue to dry my bedsheets and bathtowels on the retractable clothes line out back. I also have a veggie garden with the sweetest tomatoes. We are within walking distance of downtown.
I feel sorry for those whose HOA's that restrict people from having boats in their yard and all the colors of the homes are boring and the same. People pay extra for those gated communities, then become upset when it restricts them. Well, the rocks come with the farm, y'all. Go unincorporated and bitch again when the guy next door has 3 rusting cars up on blocks.
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» RE:Memories of clothes dancing in the wind
Posted by: Maxwell House
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Posted by: bookwoman on Apr 26, 2007 11:52 AM
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Posted by: peaknik35 on Apr 26, 2007 1:55 PM
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Everybody will be all about changing their light bulbs, but tell an American that they can't drive their car anymore. Forget it. This society is going down kicking and screaming. Having a garden, compost pile, and clothes lines in your backyard won't do you any good when the millions of starving masses come to take it from you. Try to tell me to be optimistic about the future and I'll show you 300 million Americans that make me think otherwise.
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Posted by: Doug in Mount Vernon on Apr 26, 2007 2:07 PM
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I am an environmentalist and a Board member of my association. I care deeply about the environment, and if I thought my HOA was doing anything to restrict environmentally friendly living, I'd work to change it.
Associations can foster the positive that we seek to create as well. Don't label them all as anti-environmental and out to enforce mandatory uniform living---that just isn't the case for most of them.
PS I cannot imagine, as an avid gardener, an HOA telling someone they cannot have a vegetable garden. Outrageous!
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Posted by: garblesnatchy on Apr 26, 2007 2:21 PM
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» RE: Property Values? Riiiight.
Posted by: mountainmama
» RE: Property Values? Riiiight.
Posted by: tscox
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Posted by: fdr_vindicated on Apr 26, 2007 4:11 PM
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» RE: etractable awnings banned but not unretractable rules
Posted by: progressivevoice
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Posted by: Aleabeth on Apr 26, 2007 4:45 PM
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A couple of years later a land developer bought up the surrounding land and the group home ended up falling under the new HOA.
Any group home built after 1984 in our state has to conduct an "open house" for it's neighbors and believe me it becomes an interesting "bitch" session at quite a number of them.
Some of the posters have showed no mercy to those that end up in a HOA that they don't agree with and maybe try to change... and maybe in a situation where your told the rules before you buy there's some legitimacy to that attitude.
But I ask you... how do you justify this mindset for those that are caught up in this drama by no fault of their own and can't just pick up and move?
I kid you not, one of the biggest gripes from this particular HOA was we didn't have enough flowers/plants on the property and that there was a number of vehicles coming and going... especially vans.
Like our staff have enough time to go out and plant/maintain gardens....*mumble, mumble*... and vans? Yeesh, how do they expect our clients to get around?
Listening to them, I realized where their children's hostility towards our clients came from. But that's a whole other gripe. :)
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Posted by: DaBear on Apr 26, 2007 5:02 PM
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http://www.calassoc-hoa.com
http://www.npma.org
Just three of the gigantic multi-billion dollar industry lobby a mere homeowner has to contend with. There are NO properties in CA that aren't part of an HOA, developers make it part of the deal before they build. There is no choice for a consumer, period. For those who insist this is a choice to buy an HOA house/condo or a non-HOA dwelling, you don't have enough info to support your imaginative belief. I've got the eighth largest economy in the world to prove your belief a fantasy.
For those who say, well, get a majority and change the CC&R's, um... can we say that works at all in this country for any similar thing? Of course not. Not when there are billion dollar corporations invested in ensuring the status quo is immune to changes. Stop foisting imaginative belief systems onto reality.
When the GP of Ventura County did a clothesline campaign a few years back, even in the middle of rolling blackouts, the CAAHOA jumped in and hired attorneys and paid SCE reps to show up at council meetings and successfully shot down every effort but one (there were Greens on that city council). Even Ed Masry, may he rest in peace, of Erin Brokovich fame couldn't secure the right of a homeowner to dry their laundry in the sun during a rolling blackout. It cost the party a buttload of cash and got nowhere. And that was just for a clothesline, in the middle of an energy crisis. Yeah, a couple of eco-minded homeowners are gonna prevail against that.
Sure, perhaps an HOA made up of the right people could be part of the solution. First they'd have to fire their property management company (another barrier) who fights tooth and nail with the funding of CAAHOA and others behind them to ensure that doesn't happen. Generally, the HOA wonks who get suckered into board service are the worst of control-freaks. They will NEVER be part of any solution.
That's the reality based on lived experience.
The only possibility for change is converting HOA's to cohousing HOA's.... but that will never fly in a state where group cooperation is now considered as some form of communism, something to be violently fought against with cultural malevolence. And even then, cohousing groups are not immune... I was involved in one that once it got to drawing up it's CC&R's just got lazy and picked up the boilerplate from the CAAHOA. Swell, that worked really good.
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Posted by: mountainmama on Apr 26, 2007 6:01 PM
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Posted by: Sojourner on Apr 26, 2007 6:09 PM
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My experience is that as housing prices have skyrocketed, HOAs are primarily interested in keeping their territory exclusive. That is, their main job is to protect and defend, since the only way we have for keeping creeps out of a neighborhood is by making it too expensive for them. So gated communities make sure the only folks who can move in are just like those who are already there.
So like cops everywhere, HOAs play "gotcha." But is that really any different from landlords?
We are an anxious and insecure society. Bullies to the left of us. Bullies to the right of us. "Hell is other people" writes Sartre. Ain't it a shame since no one knows more about being human than a human. The real tragedy is when we think "I am an island." Listen to for whom the bell tolls. The myth of independence is the path to loneliness and a form of divide and conquer for those in power.
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Posted by: Janet4784 on Apr 26, 2007 6:14 PM
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Posted by: cptjeff on Apr 26, 2007 6:46 PM
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If you buy the house form an owner and not a compalny which will not allow that clause to be taken out, it is easy enough to remove the cluase from the contract ath requires you to do it. To not allow that would be downright illegal.
A few court cyhallenges to these groups woudl be in order I think. Not jsut because of bad rules, but because they exist.
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» RE: Legal Status
Posted by: nancy.nielsen
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Posted by: willymack on Apr 26, 2007 7:33 PM
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» RE: So many fools
Posted by: bttl
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Posted by: BoulderCountyTreeHugger on Apr 26, 2007 9:51 PM
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* prohibit clotheslines
* prohibit window fans in front windows
* prohibit window air-conditioning
* require continuous dusk-to-dawn lighting
* prohibit awnings at front of house
* prohibit composting
* require seeded or sodded grass lawn
* require lawn watering, fertilizer, chemical use
* prohibit vegetable gardens, or limit their size
* require sprinklers in front yard
* prohibit solar panels (PV or hot water), wind generating systems, or similar appliances, altogether, or prohibit from front of house
* require concrete driveway
* require central heating and air conditioning
* require minimum of two-car garage
* have minimum living area requirements, e.g. 2750 sq. ft.
I'd like to challenge these sorts of regulations in my area and encourage others to also do so. It behooves us to reduce waste (water, energy, trash), as well as the use of nasty chemicals. Local food and local energy are, of course, key parts of the growing relocalisation movement, as in the Boulder Going Local! campaign.
Feel free to share other general anti-green regs from your own list. Please, no flaming.
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Posted by: sheena2u on Apr 27, 2007 2:06 AM
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A neighbor, an idle drunk and member of the association board, harassed me continually about my indigenous plants. The loudmouth would waddle over to my yard, start kicking my plants, and yelling that they were "spoiling the neighborhood." However, the plants were not only on my property, but they were drought tolerant, hardy, good for the environment, and I thought they were beautiful. Isn't "drought tolerant" supposed to be a plus in an extremely dry and hot place?
After a few months of resisting my bullying drunken neighbor's demands I returned home one evening to find gallons of gasoline had been poured on my landscaping. Within weeks all my landscaping was black and dead, and I thought about how the water table was probably poisoned now too. Soon many of my neighbors volunteered to yank out the roots of the poisoned trees and bushes, and they seemed a bit too happy about it. I remain haunted with the thought that I may have narrowly escaped having my house torched as well.
It was a God forsaken place, and I will never live anywhere again that has a homeowner's association. Being surrounded by meddlesome, controlling, malicious neighbors will forever be my definition of living in a home with a homeowner's association, and I would not recommend it to anyone.
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» They certainly can, but water will be hot issue.
Posted by: Janet4784
» RE: Associations can be a nightmare
Posted by: cptjeff
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Posted by: bttl on Apr 27, 2007 3:23 AM
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Look, I have neighbors in the next town just over the line from me who keep all sorts of junkers in their yard, carparts the works. Is it pleasant to look at? No. But that town has no rules whatsoever and this is the way it is. But with that comesthe ability to not be hemmed in by others rules- one can basically do what they want on their own property. I support that fully so long as one is not say pouring oil or gas on the ground or destroying the environment. Blasting music at 2 a.m. wouldn't be ok either. But basically, as long as you are not hurting others one can do what they want here. So if you don't like the clunkers up on blocks in the neighbors front yard, you just look away and don't do that in your yard. But that is as I mentioned before a whole 'nother place in terms of giving up control over others- and I'd guess that many are not wiling to go there. But what they fail to realize is that if you have the power to control others, they can control you.
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» RE: But Why Does Anyone Put Up With This??
Posted by: sheena2u
» That's a bit simplistic, and not reflective of the whole picture.
Posted by: Janet4784
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Posted by: wisegalah on Apr 27, 2007 5:54 AM
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Seems to me that the behaviour described in this article proves the latter contention fully.
The real connection between the forms of dictatorship are not their roots but their methods of self maintenance.
Wisegalah in Sydney
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Posted by: Sparks56 on Apr 27, 2007 5:07 PM
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People in Scarsdale don't hang out their clean laundry to dry; the maid throws it in the drier. The lawyer takes care of the dirty laundry.
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Posted by: drmimi94954 on Apr 28, 2007 10:36 PM
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1. I live in the most intergrated community ever in 14 years (before in Las Vegas, Bakersfield and Modesto- I was the only Black person on the block with few Black neighbors in an entire community). My neighbors in my cul de sac are from Trinidad, Colombia, Puerto Rico, Britain, even Cleveland and a couple of native Californian's
2. We are currently having our siding replaced to more energy efficient and climate rated concrete composite. I also put in Low E double glass windows to improve the heating efficiency of my townhome.
3. I have a very non smelly worm farm (four tray deal) to help fertilize my garden. Growing vegetables and herbs in containers due to our clay Adobe Soil.
4. Yes the HOA board got a little snippy when the extra broken basketball hoop had to be removed from the front of my home. It's the only beef I have had so far.
Glad to live in environmentally conscious Petaluma, where there are bikeways on all streets, green zones, many pedestrians and most people think green even in a HOA:)
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Posted by: nancy.nielsen on Apr 29, 2007 5:17 PM
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When our development was built by the City Redevelopment Agency the HOA was required. And I have been told repeatedly, that every time a builder builds more than 5 houses in California, a HOA is required by law.
We bought our home when the HOA was brand new. The people running the board of directors were like Dictators. One family had to move out because they had a LARGE satellite dish on their property. It violated the CC&R's. That is the contract, covenants and rules that control us. It was only a few years later, that the small satelllite dishes came on the market. I believe the manufacturers of the small satellite dishes went to the US congress and got a federal law passed that says HOAs cannot ban the small dishes.
My partner and I had a difficult and expensive legal bill
when we put Solar Collectors on the roof . We got to keep the
Solar but good records have not been kept by the Board of Directors. 15 years after the installation, a member of the architectural committee began to harass us re the solar collectors.
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Posted by: messedup on Apr 30, 2007 6:21 AM
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Posted by: EagleMB on Apr 26, 2007 12:34 AM
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» RE: What is it with you people and government regulations?
Posted by: kman242
» RE: What is it with you people and government regulations?
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: What is it with you people and government regulations?
Posted by: billfaster
» RE: What is it with you people and government regulations?
Posted by: elfinito
» RE: But there is no norm...
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: What is it with you people and government regulations?
Posted by: sheena2u
» RE: What is it with you people and government regulations?
Posted by: EagleMB
» The problem, of course...
Posted by: Allison
» RE: The problem, of course...
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: The problem, of course...You
Posted by: Krain61
» RE: The problem, of course...You
Posted by: sheena2u
» RE: The problem, of course...You
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: The problem, of course...
Posted by: xconservative
» HOAs ARE government
Posted by: Beck
» RE: HOAs ARE government (no they are not)
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: HOAs ARE government (no they are not)
Posted by: Krain61
» RE: HOAs ARE government (no they are not)
Posted by: EagleMB
» I suppose you'd prefer NO regulations. Republican "administration" is pathetic!
Posted by: thistleblower
» I'd never buy or even rent in a HOA area
Posted by: Dan Metcalf
» RE: I suppose you'd prefer NO regulations. Republican "administration" is pathetic!
Posted by: EagleMB
» You're missing one BIG part...
Posted by: Theodore
» RE: You're missing one BIG part...
Posted by: drmeow
» RE: You're missing one BIG part...
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: You're missing one BIG part...
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: You're missing one BIG part...
Posted by: Krain61
» RE: You're missing one BIG part...
Posted by: EagleMB
» Wal-Mart Completes Me
Posted by: eddie torres
» RE: Wal-Mart Completes Me (Huh)
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: Wal-Mart Completes Me (Huh)
Posted by: blitzmesser
» RE: Wal-Mart Completes Me
Posted by: Krain61
» Things change asshole...like, umm, new knowledge of global warming
Posted by: psychochurch
» RE: Things change asshole...like, umm, new knowledge of global warming
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: Things change asshole...like, umm, new knowledge of global warming
Posted by: Krain61
» RE: What is it with you people and government regulations?
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: What is it with you people and government regulations?
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: What is it with you people and government regulations?
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: What is it with you people and government regulations?
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: What is it with you people and government regulations?
Posted by: Krain61
» RE: What is it with you people and government regulations?
Posted by: EagleMB
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Apr 26, 2007 3:46 AM
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It sounds like some of these people should have seen it coming...If you move to a place like Quail Ridge Commons Manor or Whispering Willowy Pines Estates, what do you expect?
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Posted by: ateo on Apr 26, 2007 3:50 AM
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The reasons are obvious. The solution is even more obvious. If you don't want to be beholden to the tyranny of the majority in a housing association you simply have to live somewhere that doesn't have them. Since most of those places tend to be outside of the suburbs you'll probably be living a more "ecologically friendly" life style anyway if indeed that is your goal.
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» Very good point! image the ChemLawn leakage
Posted by: thistleblower
» RE: It's all about property values obviously
Posted by: Xynyx
» You can't have it both ways
Posted by: ateo
» Sometimes you can have it both ways
Posted by: xconservative
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Posted by: bttl on Apr 26, 2007 4:17 AM
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They'd be horrified by where I live- houses are built in whatever style anyone chooses(mine is mostly recycled), I have solar panels and a wind gen, the geese mow the "lawn", the clothesline is in use year-round(even in winter sometimes), gardens abound, chickens and ducks amble about- how low class...... just think what it must be doing to my property value- I stay awake at night fretting about it all the time......:)
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» And where is it that you live? In the U.S.?
Posted by: olderworker
» RE: And where is it that you live? In the U.S.?
Posted by: debedb
» RE: And where is it that you live? In the U.S.? YES!
Posted by: WitchyNy
» RE: And where is it that you live? In the U.S.?
Posted by: bttl
» RE: And where is it that you live? In the U.S.?
Posted by: DaBear
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Posted by: UnEasyOne on Apr 26, 2007 4:23 AM
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» Those who seek power are the last ones who should have it
Posted by: Allison
» RE: I'm not sure these HOAs really have much to do with majority will
Posted by: DaBear
» Those people run American from top to bottom
Posted by: ateo
» Busy Bodies
Posted by: Sparks56
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Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line on Apr 26, 2007 4:40 AM
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» RE: 57 million
Posted by: oregoncharles
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Posted by: greentime on Apr 26, 2007 4:47 AM
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I suppose they want us to care about them too while they continue to waste all the resources, stealing even more from the rest of us. Wasn't it enough to hog the corporate profits and lower our wages so they could live like little kings and queens? Now they want to use up all the resources because they think solar panels are unattractive.
SOLAR PANELS ARE BEAUTIFUL!!!!! GORGEOUS!!!
WINDMILLS ARE GRACEFUL AND ELEGANT!
These people are big nothings.
And as the "BIG NOTHING" song goes...
"I NEVER KNEW HOW BIG NOTHING COULD BE!"
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Posted by: danielbu on Apr 26, 2007 5:15 AM
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» Tell that to the dead sea and the negev. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» for danielbu
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» I think the plural for kibbutz is kibbuztim n/m
Posted by: AdamG
» You could start with
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» water use is key in Israel & Palestine, not solar power
Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: Glad to live in a progressive place
Posted by: Mr. Terrific
» Well, you see, Daniel...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» most of Israel is in violation of international law, not to mention
Posted by: psychochurch
» Psychochurch=ingorant, uninformed hater
Posted by: SKPython
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Apr 26, 2007 5:59 AM
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Screw 'em. Same thing will happen to these "commies" that has, is, or will happen with the big boys--eventually folks will revolt or move, and the establishment will either change or rot from the inside.
Simply can't stomach the thought of living among people who think they have a right to tell me what to do with property I own. Humans aren't programmed to be subjects, and Western-style liberty is a hard, hard bell to un-ring.
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» RE: Homeowners associations: the weeeeeest widdle Communists on the pwanet.
Posted by: oregoncharles
» Meh. Folks will live under the rules they are willing to tolerate.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
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Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on Apr 26, 2007 6:12 AM
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» RE: A phrase never seen in print before...
Posted by: Habaro
» RE: A phrase never seen in print before...
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: A phrase never seen in print before...
Posted by: xgroverx
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Apr 26, 2007 6:15 AM
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Posted by: jmb2087 on Apr 26, 2007 6:20 AM
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If you can afford to build a home in an area with average home prices of $834K, I’m guessing you know how to read. This article sounds more like someone who didn’t do their homework got bit in the a@# for their own negligence.
I have lived in areas with HOAs, and without. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, but neither is wrong. It's a matter of choosing what's right for you. If you like structure and more secure property values provided by neighborhood compliance, move into one. If you want more freedom, move elsewhere. If you want COMPLETE freedom, GET SERIOUS, it doesn't exist. There are such things as codes, laws, and ordinances that everyone must follow even outside of an HOA. Freedom and democracy are not synonymous with lawlessness or anarchy.
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» Times are changing
Posted by: Allison
» HOAs are bullies hiding behind legalese
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: HOAs are bullies hiding behind legalese
Posted by: jmb2087
» Get with it. This was not a call to abolish HOA, regardless of their merits, or a lack thereof.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Get with it. This was not a call to abolish HOA, regardless of their merits, or a lack thereof.
Posted by: jmb2087
» RE: Get with it. This was not a call to abolish HOA, regardless of their merits, or a lack thereof.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
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Posted by: redbrownandblueparty on Apr 26, 2007 6:22 AM
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Posted by: WitchyNy on Apr 26, 2007 6:29 AM
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How cool and sexy it is to have a clothesline, a flock of chickens, a compost pile (I have a tumbler one...no smell..and I painted it a pretty light green).
an organic garden, and solar panels....the mainstream has just not caught up yet.
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» It's odd when folks complain about the smell of anything organic. What smells worse than ChemLawn?
Posted by: Beck
» RE: As the Governor of California says-
Posted by: tlCampbell
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Posted by: CriminallySane on Apr 26, 2007 6:51 AM
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The flip side of that is the real solution. Homeowners' association rules are trumped by even the smallest municipality's laws. Run for local office, pass something saying that no association can restrict solar energy devices (or whatever) to any extent short of preventing a hazard.
The problem is, it takes involvement. On an ongoing basis, not just once in a while. And forget petitions. No one reads them.
As an aside, if I had the bucks, I'd move into one of those restricted 'burbs and paint my house fluorescent lime green with orange trim and a purple garage door, or some other equally ludicrous combination, in order to challenge the color restrictions on 1st Amendment grounds. (All the while giving thanks that while I was inside my own house, I would not have to look at it.)
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Posted by: nosylae on Apr 26, 2007 6:51 AM
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Most HOA are situated outside of cities and commercially zoned areas. All those "pro-environment" rebels catching fines for clotheslines and wild flower front lawns HAVE TO DRIVE EVERYWHERE to get their soy caramel lattes and locally grown broccoli.
Gimme a break! If "those people" ("who you calling 'those people'" in the voice of Biff and Buffy Whitebread) really cared about the environment, they would not choose to live in a 3,000 sqft home, which costs $500 or more a month to heat and centrally air condition, with a mandated two car garage, which they feel compelled to fill with gas guzzling, monster sized SUVs.
Go live in a city or a mixed zone area! Try walking or riding your bike to most places. And don't tell me that most Americans can't afford it. I'm talking about Biff and Buffy who spend $800K on a way too large house. They can afford it. And they should. You can't be environmentally friendly and still want to live like that in a HOA.
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» People who have money can afford to be ...discerning
Posted by: ateo
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Posted by: antiapathy on Apr 26, 2007 6:55 AM
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Yes, HOAs are bad, but people who truly care for the environment would never build a house out on the urban fringe to begin with.
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» They do it urban areas too
Posted by: tscox
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Posted by: jmb2087 on Apr 26, 2007 7:17 AM
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And I've read HOAs before a purchase before. It takes very little effort to zero in on architectural guidelines. You can easily tell if there are a lot of restrictions, or just same basics. You DON'T need an attorney if you're of average intelligence. And I've never seen any fine print - it's pretty much all Times New Roman 12pt
Ironically, I'm not a huge fan of HOAs and find if funny I'm here defending them. I'm just sick of everyone blaming everyone else because they make irresponsible decisions and don't read things before they sign. When you click okay to a terms of service online agreement, it's a pretty big difference from plunking down the largest sum of money you'll ever spend in your life on a house or condo. We're not talking about a $30 t-shirt here. People need to start taking some freaking responsibility for themselves these days. It's not everyone elses fault when they screw up.
If you want to live in an HOA and don't like what you see, participate in the community and exact change. It's the same as society as a whole. If you don't want to do that, don't complain when others make your choices for you.
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» RE: How about a Reverse Sliding Scale?
Posted by: db
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Posted by: DrSuess on Apr 26, 2007 7:39 AM
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Posted by: counterpoint on Apr 26, 2007 7:49 AM
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It will be one big HOA, and not everybody will be happy.
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» Rockefeller bros. threw in the towel on solving housing problems in the 1940s. Welcome to the dump.
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: sunflwrmoonbeam on Apr 26, 2007 7:52 AM
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For the record, I have ever intention of lobbying to get rid of that clothesline rule.
I wouldn't have bought with a more restrictive HOA, because I find it utterly ridiculous. But not every single HOA neighborhood is snooty and obsessed with conformity. My neighborhood is made up mostly of young professionals and academics who are buying their first house. No house in the neighborhood is worth more than $175,000, and no one could construe these as McMansions.
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» RE: Not all HOA's are terrible
Posted by: sheena2u
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Posted by: mcstewey on Apr 26, 2007 8:27 AM
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Posted by: eosrk on Apr 26, 2007 8:41 AM
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Yet you buy that 500hp sports car, or that thing called a hummer, you don't want a nuclear plant in your state, don't want solar panels or wind turbines on your properties on fears it drives down your property value, but yet you want everything for nothing!
You guys of these suburban heavens do the rest of us a favor and just shut the hell up and take it up the ass, for it's you that makes it hard the rest of us cause you're too damned worried about how your bland neighboorhoods look!
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Posted by: Bobsays on Apr 26, 2007 8:49 AM
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I have always lived in high density places. I have always walked or ridden my bike. You meet more interesting people that way. As for all the monster homes, which ironically are most plentiful in that socialist paradise to the north, Canada, we won't see them stop until we see the end of cheap credit.
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» RE: Dockers-wearing lamos populate the 'burbs
Posted by: babs
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Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle on Apr 26, 2007 9:08 AM
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Posted by: Theodore on Apr 26, 2007 9:22 AM
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Posted by: Scientz on Apr 26, 2007 9:28 AM
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It makes me advocate completely irrational things like wanting to cause physical pain to busybodies who sit on HOAs.
Breathe... Breeeeeathe...
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Posted by: Kitty Lady Oregon on Apr 26, 2007 9:31 AM
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» RE: HOA Phooey!
Posted by: sunflwrmoonbeam
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Posted by: shinseiji on Apr 26, 2007 9:54 AM
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Not uncoincidentally, suburbs - with the exceptions of hoity-toity liberal ones like Marin Co. (CA) - are usually the key centers of right wing reactionary politics in the US. The last refuge of the willfully ignorant.
Time for suburbanites to grow up and join the rest of humanity. The 19th century was over a long, long time ago already.
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» But Wal-Mart Completes Me
Posted by: eddie torres
» RE: But Wal-Mart Completes Me
Posted by: bifheart
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Posted by: dayahka on Apr 26, 2007 10:22 AM
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» RE: Oh, My Heart is Bleeding
Posted by: davidbdr
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Posted by: LRayn on Apr 26, 2007 10:51 AM
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I happen to live in a 1400 square foot townhome (including the garage) within 15 minutes walking distance from the historic downtown area of my city. My townhome complex has a HOA. This complex is one of the few affordable home options where I live. I walk and bicycle everywhere within the city. I am a low income person. HOAs are not only for the rich.
Luckily, the Arizona legislature has seen fit to allow solar devices and political signs. I have been working on convincing several members of my city council to pass an ordinance allowing ecologically sustainable practices everywhere in the city, such as drying clothes outdoors, installing wind turbines, keeping small flocks of chickens, etc.
Why not spend your time and energy making the world a better place? The book "Superbia!" has lots of great suggestions for how to turn your neighborhood into a sustainable community. In addition, permaculture enthusiasts are also working to demontrate how suburban homes and yards can be transformed into small sustainable homesteads.
I would also love to see HOAs and cities mandating environmentally friendly practices, limiting the maximum square footage of homes, etc.
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» RE: Why do so many of you seem so bitchy?
Posted by: djnoll
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Posted by: djnoll on Apr 26, 2007 11:04 AM
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Most homeowners did not worry too much about these restrictions while homes were still under construction, what with the mess of construction and all, but it was only when the subdivisions were done and they wanted to start making changes to their homes that they found out about this HOA being set up by the developer and that it was going to continue the covenants that they thought were only to be temporary. Often the original HOA directors were staff representatives who were still selling the last of the homes and lots, and actual homeowners had very little say in the process, because these corporate shills always seemed to outnumber them and demanded compliance with the building covenants and codes as justification. Many homeowners did not even know that many of these covenants were not part of building codes or zoning regulations to begin with, and only became enforceable when enough homeowners had bought into a subdivision and agreed to them as part of the sale agreement. It was a way for the developers to control how much they could ask for a property by being able to use existing properties that were occupied as sales tools. Worse yet, for new homeowners who did not want to stay, they had trouble selling their homes because they were in HOA developments.
Personally, I think every HOA should be banned legally and the rights of the individual to protect their property and how they use it should be accepted as part of being a citizen. Sure, on occasion you get the jerk who thinks no one matters but him/her, but face it, that is just life, and there are legal remedies that do not put a person's home at risk of seizure by someone else over a few dollars. Here in Arizona, one HOA tried to seize the home of a single mother who was dying of cancer and had gotten behind in both her mortgage and HOA dues. She had gone back to work after chemotherapy, paid up her mortgage, only to find that for a little over $300 the HOA was moving to evict her and her children. She got the local media involved, and a fund was set up that paid for her HOA dues, and helped her care for her children. She passed away a few months later, and the children's guardian was able to sell the home so that her equity went to her children not the HOA. Anyone who thinks an HOA is anything more than greed personified is being both naive and foolish, especially if they choose to live a subdivision that has one.
http://www.standanddeliveramerica.com
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» RE: HOA's a Developer's Scam
Posted by: Doug in Mount Vernon
» RE: HOA's a Developer's Scam
Posted by: xconservative
» RE: HOA's a Developer's Scam
Posted by: djnoll
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Posted by: Sushi on Apr 26, 2007 11:35 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some of the older homes here have passive, sun-heated water panels on the roof. Our windows open wide to collect breezes and we have polished terrazzo floors which hold the cool temps, it's like walking on a solid slab of marble. (Once fashionable, they fell out of favor when carpet came into vogue.) Now they are fashionable again!
After Hurricane Wilma, the ONLY way to dry our clothes was to hang them in the sun. We forget (or never knew) how sweet-smelling sun-dried clothes smell. Actually, the ultraviolet kills bacteria, which is the source of body odors. I continue to dry my bedsheets and bathtowels on the retractable clothes line out back. I also have a veggie garden with the sweetest tomatoes. We are within walking distance of downtown.
I feel sorry for those whose HOA's that restrict people from having boats in their yard and all the colors of the homes are boring and the same. People pay extra for those gated communities, then become upset when it restricts them. Well, the rocks come with the farm, y'all. Go unincorporated and bitch again when the guy next door has 3 rusting cars up on blocks.
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» RE:Memories of clothes dancing in the wind
Posted by: Maxwell House
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Posted by: bookwoman on Apr 26, 2007 11:52 AM
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Posted by: peaknik35 on Apr 26, 2007 1:55 PM
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Everybody will be all about changing their light bulbs, but tell an American that they can't drive their car anymore. Forget it. This society is going down kicking and screaming. Having a garden, compost pile, and clothes lines in your backyard won't do you any good when the millions of starving masses come to take it from you. Try to tell me to be optimistic about the future and I'll show you 300 million Americans that make me think otherwise.
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Posted by: Doug in Mount Vernon on Apr 26, 2007 2:07 PM
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I am an environmentalist and a Board member of my association. I care deeply about the environment, and if I thought my HOA was doing anything to restrict environmentally friendly living, I'd work to change it.
Associations can foster the positive that we seek to create as well. Don't label them all as anti-environmental and out to enforce mandatory uniform living---that just isn't the case for most of them.
PS I cannot imagine, as an avid gardener, an HOA telling someone they cannot have a vegetable garden. Outrageous!
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Posted by: garblesnatchy on Apr 26, 2007 2:21 PM
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» RE: Property Values? Riiiight.
Posted by: mountainmama
» RE: Property Values? Riiiight.
Posted by: tscox
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Posted by: fdr_vindicated on Apr 26, 2007 4:11 PM
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» RE: etractable awnings banned but not unretractable rules
Posted by: progressivevoice
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Posted by: Aleabeth on Apr 26, 2007 4:45 PM
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A couple of years later a land developer bought up the surrounding land and the group home ended up falling under the new HOA.
Any group home built after 1984 in our state has to conduct an "open house" for it's neighbors and believe me it becomes an interesting "bitch" session at quite a number of them.
Some of the posters have showed no mercy to those that end up in a HOA that they don't agree with and maybe try to change... and maybe in a situation where your told the rules before you buy there's some legitimacy to that attitude.
But I ask you... how do you justify this mindset for those that are caught up in this drama by no fault of their own and can't just pick up and move?
I kid you not, one of the biggest gripes from this particular HOA was we didn't have enough flowers/plants on the property and that there was a number of vehicles coming and going... especially vans.
Like our staff have enough time to go out and plant/maintain gardens....*mumble, mumble*... and vans? Yeesh, how do they expect our clients to get around?
Listening to them, I realized where their children's hostility towards our clients came from. But that's a whole other gripe. :)
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Posted by: DaBear on Apr 26, 2007 5:02 PM
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http://www.calassoc-hoa.com
http://www.npma.org
Just three of the gigantic multi-billion dollar industry lobby a mere homeowner has to contend with. There are NO properties in CA that aren't part of an HOA, developers make it part of the deal before they build. There is no choice for a consumer, period. For those who insist this is a choice to buy an HOA house/condo or a non-HOA dwelling, you don't have enough info to support your imaginative belief. I've got the eighth largest economy in the world to prove your belief a fantasy.
For those who say, well, get a majority and change the CC&R's, um... can we say that works at all in this country for any similar thing? Of course not. Not when there are billion dollar corporations invested in ensuring the status quo is immune to changes. Stop foisting imaginative belief systems onto reality.
When the GP of Ventura County did a clothesline campaign a few years back, even in the middle of rolling blackouts, the CAAHOA jumped in and hired attorneys and paid SCE reps to show up at council meetings and successfully shot down every effort but one (there were Greens on that city council). Even Ed Masry, may he rest in peace, of Erin Brokovich fame couldn't secure the right of a homeowner to dry their laundry in the sun during a rolling blackout. It cost the party a buttload of cash and got nowhere. And that was just for a clothesline, in the middle of an energy crisis. Yeah, a couple of eco-minded homeowners are gonna prevail against that.
Sure, perhaps an HOA made up of the right people could be part of the solution. First they'd have to fire their property management company (another barrier) who fights tooth and nail with the funding of CAAHOA and others behind them to ensure that doesn't happen. Generally, the HOA wonks who get suckered into board service are the worst of control-freaks. They will NEVER be part of any solution.
That's the reality based on lived experience.
The only possibility for change is converting HOA's to cohousing HOA's.... but that will never fly in a state where group cooperation is now considered as some form of communism, something to be violently fought against with cultural malevolence. And even then, cohousing groups are not immune... I was involved in one that once it got to drawing up it's CC&R's just got lazy and picked up the boilerplate from the CAAHOA. Swell, that worked really good.
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Posted by: mountainmama on Apr 26, 2007 6:01 PM
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Posted by: Sojourner on Apr 26, 2007 6:09 PM
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My experience is that as housing prices have skyrocketed, HOAs are primarily interested in keeping their territory exclusive. That is, their main job is to protect and defend, since the only way we have for keeping creeps out of a neighborhood is by making it too expensive for them. So gated communities make sure the only folks who can move in are just like those who are already there.
So like cops everywhere, HOAs play "gotcha." But is that really any different from landlords?
We are an anxious and insecure society. Bullies to the left of us. Bullies to the right of us. "Hell is other people" writes Sartre. Ain't it a shame since no one knows more about being human than a human. The real tragedy is when we think "I am an island." Listen to for whom the bell tolls. The myth of independence is the path to loneliness and a form of divide and conquer for those in power.
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Posted by: Janet4784 on Apr 26, 2007 6:14 PM
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Posted by: cptjeff on Apr 26, 2007 6:46 PM
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If you buy the house form an owner and not a compalny which will not allow that clause to be taken out, it is easy enough to remove the cluase from the contract ath requires you to do it. To not allow that would be downright illegal.
A few court cyhallenges to these groups woudl be in order I think. Not jsut because of bad rules, but because they exist.
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» RE: Legal Status
Posted by: nancy.nielsen
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Posted by: willymack on Apr 26, 2007 7:33 PM
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» RE: So many fools
Posted by: bttl
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Posted by: BoulderCountyTreeHugger on Apr 26, 2007 9:51 PM
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* prohibit clotheslines
* prohibit window fans in front windows
* prohibit window air-conditioning
* require continuous dusk-to-dawn lighting
* prohibit awnings at front of house
* prohibit composting
* require seeded or sodded grass lawn
* require lawn watering, fertilizer, chemical use
* prohibit vegetable gardens, or limit their size
* require sprinklers in front yard
* prohibit solar panels (PV or hot water), wind generating systems, or similar appliances, altogether, or prohibit from front of house
* require concrete driveway
* require central heating and air conditioning
* require minimum of two-car garage
* have minimum living area requirements, e.g. 2750 sq. ft.
I'd like to challenge these sorts of regulations in my area and encourage others to also do so. It behooves us to reduce waste (water, energy, trash), as well as the use of nasty chemicals. Local food and local energy are, of course, key parts of the growing relocalisation movement, as in the Boulder Going Local! campaign.
Feel free to share other general anti-green regs from your own list. Please, no flaming.
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Posted by: sheena2u on Apr 27, 2007 2:06 AM
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A neighbor, an idle drunk and member of the association board, harassed me continually about my indigenous plants. The loudmouth would waddle over to my yard, start kicking my plants, and yelling that they were "spoiling the neighborhood." However, the plants were not only on my property, but they were drought tolerant, hardy, good for the environment, and I thought they were beautiful. Isn't "drought tolerant" supposed to be a plus in an extremely dry and hot place?
After a few months of resisting my bullying drunken neighbor's demands I returned home one evening to find gallons of gasoline had been poured on my landscaping. Within weeks all my landscaping was black and dead, and I thought about how the water table was probably poisoned now too. Soon many of my neighbors volunteered to yank out the roots of the poisoned trees and bushes, and they seemed a bit too happy about it. I remain haunted with the thought that I may have narrowly escaped having my house torched as well.
It was a God forsaken place, and I will never live anywhere again that has a homeowner's association. Being surrounded by meddlesome, controlling, malicious neighbors will forever be my definition of living in a home with a homeowner's association, and I would not recommend it to anyone.
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» They certainly can, but water will be hot issue.
Posted by: Janet4784
» RE: Associations can be a nightmare
Posted by: cptjeff
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Posted by: bttl on Apr 27, 2007 3:23 AM
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Look, I have neighbors in the next town just over the line from me who keep all sorts of junkers in their yard, carparts the works. Is it pleasant to look at? No. But that town has no rules whatsoever and this is the way it is. But with that comesthe ability to not be hemmed in by others rules- one can basically do what they want on their own property. I support that fully so long as one is not say pouring oil or gas on the ground or destroying the environment. Blasting music at 2 a.m. wouldn't be ok either. But basically, as long as you are not hurting others one can do what they want here. So if you don't like the clunkers up on blocks in the neighbors front yard, you just look away and don't do that in your yard. But that is as I mentioned before a whole 'nother place in terms of giving up control over others- and I'd guess that many are not wiling to go there. But what they fail to realize is that if you have the power to control others, they can control you.
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» RE: But Why Does Anyone Put Up With This??
Posted by: sheena2u
» That's a bit simplistic, and not reflective of the whole picture.
Posted by: Janet4784
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Posted by: wisegalah on Apr 27, 2007 5:54 AM
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Seems to me that the behaviour described in this article proves the latter contention fully.
The real connection between the forms of dictatorship are not their roots but their methods of self maintenance.
Wisegalah in Sydney
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Posted by: Sparks56 on Apr 27, 2007 5:07 PM
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People in Scarsdale don't hang out their clean laundry to dry; the maid throws it in the drier. The lawyer takes care of the dirty laundry.
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Posted by: drmimi94954 on Apr 28, 2007 10:36 PM
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1. I live in the most intergrated community ever in 14 years (before in Las Vegas, Bakersfield and Modesto- I was the only Black person on the block with few Black neighbors in an entire community). My neighbors in my cul de sac are from Trinidad, Colombia, Puerto Rico, Britain, even Cleveland and a couple of native Californian's
2. We are currently having our siding replaced to more energy efficient and climate rated concrete composite. I also put in Low E double glass windows to improve the heating efficiency of my townhome.
3. I have a very non smelly worm farm (four tray deal) to help fertilize my garden. Growing vegetables and herbs in containers due to our clay Adobe Soil.
4. Yes the HOA board got a little snippy when the extra broken basketball hoop had to be removed from the front of my home. It's the only beef I have had so far.
Glad to live in environmentally conscious Petaluma, where there are bikeways on all streets, green zones, many pedestrians and most people think green even in a HOA:)
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Posted by: nancy.nielsen on Apr 29, 2007 5:17 PM
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When our development was built by the City Redevelopment Agency the HOA was required. And I have been told repeatedly, that every time a builder builds more than 5 houses in California, a HOA is required by law.
We bought our home when the HOA was brand new. The people running the board of directors were like Dictators. One family had to move out because they had a LARGE satellite dish on their property. It violated the CC&R's. That is the contract, covenants and rules that control us. It was only a few years later, that the small satelllite dishes came on the market. I believe the manufacturers of the small satellite dishes went to the US congress and got a federal law passed that says HOAs cannot ban the small dishes.
My partner and I had a difficult and expensive legal bill
when we put Solar Collectors on the roof . We got to keep the
Solar but good records have not been kept by the Board of Directors. 15 years after the installation, a member of the architectural committee began to harass us re the solar collectors.
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Posted by: messedup on Apr 30, 2007 6:21 AM
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