COMMENTS: 624
You Call Yourself a Progressive -- But You Still Eat Meat?
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Being part of the solution can be a whole lot simpler -- and cheaper -- than going out and buying a new hybrid. We can make a huge difference in the environment simply by eating a plant-based diet instead of an animal-based one. Factory farming pollutes our air and water, reduces the rainforests, and goes a long way to create global warming. Yet for some environmentalists, the idea of giving up those chicken nuggets is still hard to swallow.
So, I thought I might discuss a few of the key concerns that my meat-eating friends offer in defense of their continued meat consumption. Here we go:
Some were worried about thriving, physically, on a vegetarian diet.
Now this just does not make sense. Half of all Americans die of heart disease or cancer and two-thirds of us are overweight. The American Dietetic Association says that vegetarians have "lower rates of death from ischemic heart disease; ... lower blood cholesterol levels, lower blood pressure, and lower rates of hypertension, type 2 diabetes, and prostate and colon cancer." Vegetarians, on average, are about one-third as likely to be overweight as meat eaters.
And I've just learned from the brilliant Dr. Andrew Weil that there is something called arachidonic acid, or AA, in animal flesh that causes inflammation. AA is a pro-inflammatory fatty acid. He explains that "heart disease and Alzheimer's -- among many other diseases -- begin as inflammatory processes. The same hormonal imbalance that increases inflammation increases cell proliferation and the risk of malignant transformation." They are finding out that inflammation is key in so many of the diseases that plague us. So when you eat meat, you ingest AA, which causes inflammation, which fires up the disease process. It doesn't matter if the chicken is free range or the beef is grass-fed because the fatty acid is natural and inherent in the meat.
As for having strength and energy on a vegetarian diet, some of the world's top athletes are vegetarian. A few examples: Carl Lewis (perhaps the greatest Olympian of all time), Robert Parish (one of the "50 Greatest Players in NBA History"), Desmond Howard (Heisman Trophy winner and Super Bowl MVP), Bill Pearl (professional bodybuilder and four-time Mr. Universe), Jack La Lanne (Mr. Fitness himself) and Chris Evert (tennis champion). Vegetarian athletes have the advantage of getting all the plant protein, complex carbohydrates and fiber they need without all the artery-clogging cholesterol and saturated animal fats found in meat that would slow them down. In fact, Carl Lewis says that "my best year of track competition was the first year I ate a vegan diet."
One person pointed out that the rain forest is being cut down to grow soy, not meat.
Actually, much of the rain forest is being chopped down for grazing, but also yes, the rain forest is being chopped down to grow soy -- but not for human consumption. Americans and Europeans can't raise all the feed domestically that is needed to sustain their meat addictions, so agribusiness has started cutting down the rain forest. Ask Greenpeace or any other environmental group, and they'll tell you that the overwhelming majority of soy (or corn or wheat, for that matter) is used to feed animals in factory farms. In fact, Greenpeace recently unveiled a massive banner over an Amazon soy field that read, "KFC-Amazon Criminal," to accentuate the point that large chicken and other meat companies like KFC are responsible for the destruction of the Amazon. It takes many pounds of soy or other plant foods to produce just one pound of animal flesh -- so if you're worried about the rain forests being chopped down for grazing or to grow soy, your best move is to stop eating chickens, pigs and other animals. If more people went vegetarian, we would need far less land to feed people, and we wouldn't have to destroy the few natural places that this world has left.
Some wondered about humane, organic or kosher meat.
Sadly, most of the meat, egg and dairy companies that pretend to be eco- or animal-friendly, with packages covered in pictures of pretty red barnyards, are basically the same massive corporately owned factory farms but with a newly hired advertising consultant. In fact, labels like "Swine Welfare" and "UEP Certified" are simply the industry labels that attempt to hide the horrible abuse involved in these products' production. And even "organic" farms are industrializing in ways that shock the journalists who bother to investigate. Sadly, "kosher" means nothing when it comes to how animals are treated on farms, and the largest kosher slaughterhouse in North America was caught horribly abusing animals -- ripping the tracheas out of live cows' throats and worse -- and defending the abuse as kosher.
All that said, it's undeniable that the rare meat eater who limits himself or herself to a bit of grass-fed cattle flesh on occasion is making a much smaller environmental impact than the vast majority of Americans. But when you consider that no reputable scientific or medical body believes that eating animals is good for us, let alone necessary, one has to wonder about environmentalists who insist on consuming products that we know to be resource-intensive and polluting (even if they're less resource intensive and polluting than some other similar options or eaten in "moderation"). It'd be like driving an SUV that gets 15 mpg rather than 10, or driving an SUV three days per week instead of seven. Sure, it might be better for the environment, but with so many more fuel-efficient ways to get from A to B, there's no need to drive any SUV at all. Eating meat -- any meat -- is the same thing: With so many healthy vegetarian options that are kinder and far more eco-friendly than even the "best" meat products, there's just no good justification for someone who claims to be an environmentalist -- or to oppose cruelty -- for doing it.
Some worry about "preachy" or "judgmental" or "extreme" vegetarians.
And some consider the very choice to be a vegetarian to be extreme. Although I certainly don't like radical in-your-face messages, the truth is that, sometimes, it's the only thing that seems to wrench us out of our slumber. I know it worked with me when I saw one of the slaughterhouse videos -- definitely not pleasant, but it got my attention.
The very nature of progressive movements throughout history is to tell others to stop doing something harmful or degrading (e.g., using humans as slaves, sexually harassing women, forcing children to work in sweatshops, harming the environment, etc). Yes, the abolitionists, suffragists, feminists, and civil rights activists were called extreme, and similarly, some vegetarians are called extreme. But maybe it's just because vegetarianism is not yet a cultural norm. Old habits -- and appetites -- die hard, and there is usually a lot of resistance before things change. I'm a southern gal, and I loved my chicken fried steak like no other. I didn't want to give up the joys of Sunday barbecue or chicken wings with my friends on a Friday night. I get it; I understand.
But still, if we are to continue evolving -- physically, emotionally, and spiritually -- we really do have to look at how our dinner choices affect not only the environment but, even more importantly, the well-being (or intense suffering) of other creatures. So yes, on the one hand, the move to eating a plant-based diet may look extreme because most people don't do it. But on the other hand, we can still have our barbecued (soy dogs and veggie burgers) and feel good about it.
I do feel strongly that vegetarians should not play into the self-righteous stereotypes, that we should not be shrill or judgmental, of course, but that doesn't require silence; it simply requires patience and decorum.
A few people asked about meat in the developing world, or meat for Eskimos or Inuit.
If you are an Eskimo, or you're living in sub-Saharan Africa and you're reading this blog, I'm not going to begrudge you your pound of flesh; it would be silly of me to do so. But if you're reading this in a developed country where almost all animals are eating animal feed rather than grazing, are factory-farmed rather than living with families or hunted, and you have abundant vegetarian options all around you, talk of people who have limited food options doesn't apply to you.
Some people worried that it's hard to be a vegetarian.
Being vegetarian isn't exactly the supreme sacrifice -- surfing around the food pics on any vegetarian cooking site will show you that. Vegetarian and vegan food is everywhere (even Burger King has a veggie burger!). Most, if not all, major grocery stores carry soy milk, mock meats ("chicken" nuggets, BBQ "ribs," burgers, soy "sausage," etc.), vegan cheeses, and soy ice cream. If you can't find what you want at the store, most will order it for you. Many restaurants have veggie options a-plenty (especially Thai, Indian, Ethiopian, Mexican and other ethnic restaurants, which are my favorite anyway). Sure, some vegetarians may prefer not to eat food that was cooked on the same grill as meat, but I'm not concerned about that (it does not cause more animals to suffer or more environmental harm). You can find great vegetarian recipes at www.VegCooking.com.
I'd also like to address the top five most common justifications that I hear from meat eaters for their meat consumption:
No. 5: "Humans have always eaten animals -- it's natural."
First, our evolution in human morality is marked almost entirely by our attempt to move beyond the "might makes right" law of the jungle. It may indeed be "natural" for the powerful to dominate the weak, but that doesn't mean we should support it.
Second, human bodies don't require meat to be healthy -- quite the opposite. Animal flesh contains cholesterol and saturated fat, which are hard on our bodies. We may have had a need to eat meat thousands of years ago, in times of scarcity as hunter-gatherers, but we don't need to now, and we'll be better off if we don't. Check out this essay by Dr. Milton Mills for more information on the issue of whether the human physiology is designed for meat consumption.
Most critically, the people who say this generally use it to justify buying the same old meat that comes from giant, wholly unnatural factory farms where animals are crammed into filthy sheds or cages and not allowed to do anything natural to them -- at all, ever (breathe fresh air, bask in the sun, raise their young, dust-bathe, form social orders, etc.). Chickens in the egg industry have half their beaks cut off, piglets in the pork industry have their tails cut off, etc. (Please take 10 minutes to watch the video at a href="http://www.meat.org">www.Meat.org.) This is how 99 percent of chickens and turkeys, 95 percent of pigs and eggs, and most cow flesh and dairy products end up on our plates.
Lastly, if you care so much about being "natural," then think for a moment about the harm that you're doing to your natural environment by eating meat -- any meat. At the end of the day, for me, we don't need to eat meat, we'll be better off without it, and it causes animals to suffer.
No. 4: "Animals are not equal to humans, so we should not be so concerned about them."
I disagree with Princeton professor Peter Singer on many issues, but on this one I think he gets it precisely right. Writes Dr. Singer, "[W]hen nonvegetarians say that 'human problems come first,' I cannot help wondering what exactly it is that they are doing for human beings that compels them to continue to support the wasteful, ruthless exploitation of farm animals." Which is to say: Fine, don't spend any time at all on animal issues, but please don't pay other people to abuse animals, which is what you are doing when you buy chicken, pork or other animal products. And remember: A vegetarian diet is also the best diet for the planet, so eat as though the planet depended on it, since it just might.
No. 3: "There have been many brilliant meat eaters, like Picasso and Mozart, so they could not have been wrong."
I highly doubt that anyone is going to suggest that vegetarians Steve Jobs, Leonardo da Vinci, Pythagoras, Albert Einstein, Leo Tolstoy or Mohandas Gandhi were especially brilliant because they were vegetarians, and I also don't think one can make the argument that meat eaters attained their great heights as a result of their diet. Interestingly, studies show that vegetarians are smarter than meat eaters, but there is probably not causality there -- it's probably just that thoughtful people tend to question things more deeply, hence the decision to become vegetarian. Here's a 2006 study from the British Medical Journal about vegetarians being smarter than meat eaters.
No. 2: "Where do you draw the line? Should we protect insects? What's the difference between killing plants and killing animals? They're all alive."
The theologian and Narnia inventor C.S. Lewis staunchly opposed testing on animals on Christian grounds, and he pointed out to those who asked this question that the question is baseless -- they already know and understand the differences between plants and animals. To whit, every reader will recoil in horror if asked to imagine lighting a cat on fire or beating a dog's head in with a baseball bat -- because we know that these things cause the animals pain. But none of us feels similarly at the prospect of pulling weeds or mowing our lawn -- because we know that weeds and lawns have no capacity to feel pain. Chickens, pigs, fish and cattle all feel pain in the same way and to the same degree as any dog or cat. Just watch their faces and their body language in these undercover videos; listen to their animal versions of screaming. I assure you, grass does not suffer like these poor creatures do.
I'm not so sure about insects, though I try to give them the benefit of the doubt whenever possible. Yes, when I walk down the street, I'm sure I step on bugs. But does the fact that I can't stop all cruelty mean that I shouldn't bother to stop a lot of it? Of course not. That'd be like saying that if you drive a car, you shouldn't even bother to recycle.
And the No. 1 justification for eating meat is: "Meat won't kill me, and I like it."
No question -- this is the crux of it all, the only purely honest answer if you ask me. Sure enough, unless you get really bad food poisoning from your next piece of undercooked chicken or choke to death on a piece of steak, meat won't kill you right away. But chances are pretty good that eating meat could reduce your life span (and quality) in the long run. The American Dietetic Association (the overarching group of nutrition researchers, doctors, etc.) says that vegetarians have lower rates of heart disease, cancer, diabetes and obesity than do meat eaters. Some argue that for every study, there's another that says the opposite, but that's simply not so in this case. You'd be hard-pressed to find a reputable scientific or medical body that disagrees with the simple fact that vegetarians are a fraction as likely to be overweight and much less likely to suffer from heart disease and cancer. Really, even if I didn't give a hoot about animal suffering or environmental degradation, I would still be vegetarian because the diet is the best diet for my health. And as noted, eating meat does support cruelty to animals and environmental degradation, all for the sake of a palate preference (which, by the way, can be largely satisfied by the luscious faux meat options out there).
Concluding thoughts:
One thing about being a vegetarian that is often missed is how empowering it is. Personally, I think that integrity of action requires that among other things, we attempt to lead lives that are as compassionate and conscious as possible. What this means to me, personally, is that if there is something that I would not want to do myself, I don't feel good paying someone else to do it on my behalf. So I don't inflict suffering or kill animals myself; and I don't support the market of killing by buying these poor animals chopped up and shrink-wrapped in the grocery store either.
We are a nation of animal lovers, and we all cringe in horror when we hear about cases like a dog being burned alive or tossed into freeway traffic. But chickens and pigs and other animals also deserve our compassion. They are all smart animals who feel pain and fear, yet they are treated just horribly, and sadly, there are no laws to protect them. Don't take my word for it, watch Alec Baldwin's Meet Your Meat and see for yourself what goes on.
We oppose sweatshops and child labor, and we cringe at the thought of children laboring in developing countries. But American slaughterhouses are sweatshops. They employ people working illegally who can't defend themselves out of fear of being deported. Conditions in these places are so bad that the average annual turnover rate for slaughter-line workers is out of sight. Check out the website of this labor organization to learn about its fight against Smithfield Foods (the world's largest pork and turkey producer, which owns Butterball).
We are environmentalists, and we cringe when see a bright yellow Hummer in the grocery store parking lot. But regardless of the amount of fuel that a Hummer uses or the amount of greenhouse gasses that it emits, if we're eating meat, we're making a conscious decision that is even more wasteful and polluting. In addition to my recent Vegetarian is the New Prius piece, check out this E Magazine article by the magazine's editor, The Case Against Meat, or this Grist.com article, How Poultry Producers Are Ravaging the Rural South, as just a few examples.
Americans and Europeans eat meat because we want to, not because we have to. And we do it at the expense of animals, people and the environment.
We would do well to consider a dietary change. For some tips on making that change, please see my previous AlterNet Blog.
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Posted by: TwinsFanatic on Mar 14, 2007 12:33 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Slaughterhouses are probably the most violent places on the planet. Animals are routinely sent kicking and screaming through the skinning and dismemberment process, every one bleeding and dying exactly like they would if they were human beings.
Farms today treat animals like so many boxes in a warehouse, chopping off beaks and tails and genitals with no painkillers at all, inflicting third degree burns (branding), ripping out teeth, and hunks of flesh. Animals transported to slaughter routinely die from the heat or the cold, or freeze to the sides of the transport trucks or to the bottom in their own excrement. Dairy cows and egg laying hens endure the same living nightmare as their brethren who are raised for their flesh, except that their time on the "farm" is longer. They are still shipped to the slaughterhouse and killed, at a fraction of their natural life span.
There is simply no excuse for anyone who considers herself or himself to be an ethical human being, let alone an "animal lover," to be supporting these kinds of practices, all of which are routine and universal throughout the industries which turn animals into eggs and meat and dairy products.
I agree with what Kathy says: If I can't watch it happening, I want no part of it. I enjoy watching fields tilled and love picking apples and tomatoes and carrots and other vegetarian products. If slaughterhouses had glass walls, as Paul McCartney is so fond of saying, we would all be vegetarians.
Every time I sit down to eat, I make a decision about who I am in the world: Do I want to add to the level of violence, misery, and bloodshed in the world? Or, do I want to make a compassionate and merciful choice? There is so much violence in the world, from war torn regions of Africa and Europe, to our own inner cities. Most of this violence is difficult to understand, let alone influence.
Vegetarianism is one area where each and every one of us can make a difference, every time we sit down to eat. I find it empowering that I can make an option for peace and compassion every time I eat, simply by not encouraging violence and misery against animals.
» Agreed: going vegetarian is the least we can do
Posted by: A.T.
» Choose non-violence, go meat-free
Posted by: ECtek
» What shall I feed my 3 cats? ----eom
Posted by: Bev
» RE: What shall I feed my 3 cats? Cat Food
Posted by: AngryWhiteFemale
» RE: What shall I feed my 3 cats? VEG PET OWNER PLEASE REPLY
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: What shall I feed my 3 cats? VEG PET OWNER PLEASE REPLY
Posted by: faeriefolk
» RE: What shall I feed my 3 cats? VEG PET OWNER PLEASE REPLY
Posted by: leavemlaughing
» RE: What shall I feed my 3 cats? VEG PET OWNER PLEASE REPLY
Posted by: hartsmart
» RE: What shall I feed my 3 cats? VEG PET OWNER PLEASE REPLY
Posted by: hschwing
» Mange Gateaux
Posted by: gellero
» RE: What shall I feed my 3 cats? ----eom
Posted by: blakkat31
» RE: What shall I feed my 3 cats? ----eom **Thanks for thoughtful comments**
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: What shall I feed my 3 cats? ----eom **Thanks for thoughtful comments**
Posted by: blakkat31
» RE: VEGETARIANISM is the progressive movement
Posted by: lauraf
» VEGETARIANISM is the progressive movement..... to YOU, that is.
Posted by: Sobanos
» RE: VEGETARIANISM is the progressive movement . . .
Posted by: lauraf
» RE: VEGETARIANISM is the progressive movement . . .
Posted by: Sobanos
» RE: VEGETARIANISM is the progressive movement . . .
Posted by: sterlingdave54
» RE: VEGETARIANISM is the progressive movement
Posted by: Bibs
» Sequester Carbon, Enjoy Good Health and Save the Planet -- EAT CLAMS.
Posted by: alaskagrrl
» RE: Sequester Carbon, Enjoy Good Health and Save the Planet -- EAT CLAMS.
Posted by: zoomorph
» Where do I collect my $25 Million ?
Posted by: alaskagrrl
» Cavemen ate meat because they didn't know better...
Posted by: Dr.Eagleston
» Better living through chemistry
Posted by: AdamG
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cordas on Mar 14, 2007 12:45 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lets do untold damage to the landscape (and enviroment) by turning hundreds of thousands of square miles into unending arable plains and destroy all the habitat that grazing meadows create and all the wildlife that lives there.
Yes lets.
Or maybe we should accept nature and the fact that we are omnivores. Personally as a meat eater and enviromentalist I get really narked by the short sightedness and blinkered approach taken by the extremist vegi lobby.
I will quite happily agree that the intensive farming of meat that is carried out on a "corperate scale" is wrong in so many different ways, and that the availability and over eating of such meat isn't good for either us or the enviroment, but you have to be absolutly barking if you think abolishing meat from the diet and everyone going vegi will be any better....
If that happens then big business will just move even more into the arable market and will continue its practises and continue to destroy the enviroment, only with arable practices it is far more damaging than maintaining prarie and meadows for livestock.
So put away your meat-eater hating banners and have a sensible debate about what we should do to protect our food and enviroment and make sure that the food we feed to ourselves and our children is the best it can be, wether its organic beef or a nut casserole.
» Reduce cruelty. Reduce exploitation. Reduce harming sentients. Build a kinder society.
Posted by: aouie01
» **TO AOUIE and OTHER VEGS--PRACTICAL ADVICE NEEDED, please--**
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: **TO AOUIE and OTHER VEGS--PRACTICAL ADVICE NEEDED, please--**
Posted by: hschwing
» RE: **TO AOUIE and OTHER VEGS--PRACTICAL ADVICE NEEDED, please--**
Posted by: aouie01
» RE: **TO AOUIE and OTHER VEGS--PRACTICAL ADVICE NEEDED, please--**THANK YOU!!
Posted by: maribelle
» Why not take responsibility and go meat free?
Posted by: A.T.
» RE: Why not take responsibility and go meat free?
Posted by: Mrs. Robinson
» RE: Why not take responsibility and go meat free?
Posted by: Blade
» It does sound like you have baggage
Posted by: ECtek
» RE: It does sound like you have baggage
Posted by: Mrs. Robinson
» RE: It does sound like you have baggage
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: It does sound like you have baggage
Posted by: mjabele
» Give me a veggie burder instead of the decomposing corpse of a tortured bird any day
Posted by: ECtek
» RE: Yup, lets all go vegi.
Posted by: EddB
» Eating meat is what's extreme! For life, go vegan!
Posted by: mwiese
» RE: ating meat is what's extreme! For life, go vegan!
Posted by: ECtek
» RE: Couldn't agree more
Posted by: Techubus
» Ridiculous argument
Posted by: Tombo
» RE: Except you completely failed to deconstruct my argument
Posted by: Techubus
» RE: xcept you completely failed to deconstruct my argument
Posted by: plantsareneat
» RE: xcept you completely failed to deconstruct my argument
Posted by: Techubus
» wow
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: idiculous argument
Posted by: profoflitandtrout
» RE: Couldn't agree more **There's nothing militant about persuasion**
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: Couldn't agree more **There's nothing militant about persuasion**
Posted by: Techubus
» RE: Vegetatianism is easy and positive
Posted by: lauraf
» RE: Yup, lets all go vegi.
Posted by: activecitizen2007
» RE: Have you seen how slaughterhouse workers are treated?
Posted by: lauraf
» RE: Have you seen how agricultural workers are treated?
Posted by: Techubus
» RE: Yup, lets all go vegi.
Posted by: Sobanos
» RE: habitat that grazing meadows create?
Posted by: existen
» If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging
Posted by: AdamG
Comments are closed-
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Mar 14, 2007 12:52 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The moral argument also applies to agriculture - when you clear a field for farmland, you destroy wildlife habitat. There's always a cost, and eating plants doesn't change that basic fact. You have to keep the deer from eating your crops, after all - think about it.
I'll take locally raised chickens and eggs over soy products flown in from the Brazilian Amazon - why not? I'd actually prefer a 95% vegetarian diet on basic health grounds, and I'll eat cheese and eggs - but how many people who eat meat have ever slaughtered an animal? Cut the head off a chicken? Gutted a cow or other large mammal? It should be a required experience for anyone who eats meat.
Of course, the levels of digusting foulness involved in the factory farming of meat is unprecedented. Google: "Rolling Stones" "Boss Hog" for the gory details - and yet people eat that nasty corn-fed hog flesh with no questions asked. Incredible.
55% of corn production goes right into the factory farm system - and I for one think that producing ethanol from that corn is a far better use than feeding it to hogs.
Thus, I'll agree with the author, with a caveat - eat vegetarian, but make sure it's locally produced - and if you do have to kill a chicken for food, at least make sure you do a good job of cooking it. Show a little respect, in other words - and don't eat that factory-farmed hormone-pumped nightmare flesh of death.
» Values vary and hence what is most important varies.
Posted by: aouie01
» Eating animals shows no respect for them
Posted by: mwiese
» Then vegetarianism is about values and not saving the environment
Posted by: anthroman
» RE: Sustainable, local food production is most important
Posted by: kelt65
» Going veg ALSO helps these other things
Posted by: yehadut
» Or a vegan who flies
Posted by: Beck
Comments are closed-
Posted by: milox on Mar 14, 2007 1:08 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why? Because people eat meat by choice and like it...hell the Dali Lama does and using global warming and every other arguements isn't going to cut it. Frankly I don't see a change in omnivores culture just like I don't see fundamentalist Christians getting everyone to pray and not have sex. There's a disconnect in how people are wired. It's just not going to happen.
That said, you'll have many more allies in the environmental fight if you suggest substainable agriculture and humane/non-factory live stock breeding/production rather then being a vegetarian.
If you choose not to eat meat, I applaud you. I however as a progressive, who takes public transpo, rarely uses a car and walks a lot WILL NOT BE GIVING UP MEAT.
» Culturally sanctioned wrongs can be given up for good principles, by individuals and societies.
Posted by: aouie01
» Eating meat is a choice, but it is a BAD one
Posted by: A.T.
» RE: ating meat is a choice, but it is a BAD one
Posted by: tweedster
» Going vegan is about equal consideration and respect for All beings
Posted by: mwiese
» RE: There is no such thing as humane animal production
Posted by: lauraf
» Don't think you don't kill, either
Posted by: Beck
» RE: It's Cultural - Gramsci
Posted by: si.se.puede
» RE: It's Cultural - Gramsci
Posted by: yehadut
» RE: It's Cultural - Gramsci - Dalai Lama does NOT eat meat!!
Posted by: anurak
Comments are closed-
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob on Mar 14, 2007 1:17 AM
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Who is it healthier for? People with certain physical ailments, people of certain builds and physical systems, people with gastrointestinal ailments of certain types, and some people who work in labor intensive situations and need lots of protein.
You don't have to believe that of course, you can continue to think you know better what's right for someone else-- that's sure a persuasive technique.
It's simply super arrogant to assume, because you read a few books on how bad meat is, that you know best for everybody.
You don't.
» Going veg is about more than health, it's about the environment and opposing cruelty
Posted by: ramsey
» Not agreeing with some reasonings shouldn't result in ignoring the other reasons.
Posted by: aouie01
» Vegetarianism IS the healthiest diet
Posted by: TwinsFanatic
» RE: Vegetarianism is NOT the healthiest diet for everyone, we are NOT all clones of one another!
Posted by: Setnakt
» Personally, cutting out meat helped improve my health
Posted by: ECtek
» The real reasons why people eat animals
Posted by: mwiese
» RE: The real reasons why people eat animals
Posted by: CriminallySane
» RE: Nobody can claim to know best what diet others should have.
Posted by: lovethebomb
» RE: Nobody can claim to know best what diet others should have.
Posted by: icmfal
» RE: Nobody can claim to know best what diet others should have.
Posted by: lostvirtue
» RE: Vegetarianism is healthy for everyone!
Posted by: lauraf
» RE: Vegetarianism is healthy for everyone!...unless
Posted by: kiel
» RE: please do not assume you know all and alienate good people
Posted by: chris555
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Posted by: TwinsFanatic on Mar 14, 2007 1:20 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article has just been posted, and already there are "progressives" claiming that it goes to far, doesn't go far enough, and then the final one: I'm going to eat meat and call myself a progressive, and there's nothing you can do about it!
This just proves that progressives can be just as selfish and just as unreasonable as anyone else, and that some progressives also don't want to move outside of their comfort zones.
It's a simple fact, really, made eloquently by this author, that eating meat is bad for the environment, bad for your health, and supports cruelty. To deny it and fight to keep eating meat is similar to the right wingers who deny global warming and continue to drive their SUVs.
» Or it's similar to not eating meat, but flying, or. . . .
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: Temporary on Mar 14, 2007 1:43 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: No one needs meat, that's proven fact. You WANT meat, you dont NEED it.
Posted by: tweedster
» Miracles galore - INSANE humans (including kids) are living healthily on vegan diets.
Posted by: aouie01
» RE: Fish is an especially important source of Omega-3 ESSENTIAL fatty acids
Posted by: hschwing
» Omega 3 can come from algae supplements
Posted by: AWoronczuk
» It's the ratio of Omega-3 to Omega-6 that counts; Grains and canola undermine that
Posted by: Rune
» I've never eaten meat in my life..but I hate vegetarinism being forced......
Posted by: may261989
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Posted by: Eat Politicians on Mar 14, 2007 1:49 AM
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And here's the real deal...if you want to buy free-range, organic meat it's easy. But cows and chickens are stupid and they will die because everything dies...
Should Americans eat less meat...yes....should commercial farming adopt ethical methods, or be kicked altogether for family farms...yes...should meat production end completely...no.
Anyone who has lived on a real farm...a family farm...knows the reality of life and death and it's tie to nature...city dwelling yokels with their funny ideas about nature are laughable....they lose all basis for argument about nature or life or death because they are so removed FROM it...
Live outside the city...understand reality, and get back to me in 5 years...real progressives eat meat...responsibly.
» Go veg for life
Posted by: A.T.
» RE: Go veg for life....OK: but Life feeds upon Life---Get Used to it
Posted by: Jayzer
» Since going veg I've never felt better - I virtually never get sick and I feel great
Posted by: ramsey
» Vegetarianism is often a choice that lasts a long lifetime.
Posted by: aouie01
» Everybody I have known who was vegentarian has been sickly
Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: verybody I have known who was vegentarian has been sickly
Posted by: hschwing
» I've been vegan 20 years, my wife her whole (43 years) life.
Posted by: TwinsFanatic
» RE: in ten years, you'll be eating meat again....
Posted by: svsiemers
» Sorry... it's NOT the truth.
Posted by: wellread
» RE: in ten years, you'll be eating meat again....
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» I'm almost 58, and it's been 14 1/2 years...
Posted by: mwiese
» RE: depends...
Posted by: tlCampbell
» RE: in ten years, you'll be eating meat again....
Posted by: citizen green
» RE: in ten years, you'll be eating meat again....
Posted by: decenter
» RE: I did live on a family farm and have been veggie for 8 years
Posted by: flowerpot
» RE: in ten years, you'll be eating meat again....
Posted by: bbfmail
» Ten Years Without Meat Sounds Good!
Posted by: DataDoc
» we have a definite disconnect from our food
Posted by: aaroncruz
» RE: in ten years, you'll be eating meat again....
Posted by: slyttle
Comments are closed-
Posted by: JS111272 on Mar 14, 2007 2:00 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» Actually, yes, vegetarians are environmentalists; they eat lower on the food chain
Posted by: ramsey
» RE: Actually, yes, vegetarians are environmentalists; they eat lower on the food chain
Posted by: JS111272
» RE: Actually, yes, vegetarians are environmentalists; they eat lower on the food chain
Posted by: mjabele
» True. Your relatively kinder options may be a step towards a more idealized society.
Posted by: aouie01
» RE: avoiding meat is one of the best things you can do for the environment
Posted by: JS111272
» There is no such thing as "humane slaughter"
Posted by: mwiese
» RE: There is no such thing as "humane slaughter"
Posted by: JS111272
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ramsey on Mar 14, 2007 2:14 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: Find out how that chicken got to your plate; you'll go veg
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» RE: Find out how that chicken got to your plate; you'll go veg
Posted by: mjabele
» I do know how my chicken got there
Posted by: AdamG
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jwc on Mar 14, 2007 2:32 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's eat the annoying, whiny, cares-more-for-any-animal-than-for-any-humans instead.
They would quite condemning us, we would eat like kings for years, and the potato famine wouldn't matter anymore.
» Cannibalism - cruelty free meat.
Posted by: aouie01
» RE: Cannibalism - cruelty free meat.
Posted by: jwc
» RE: A modest proposal...
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» RE: A modest proposal...
Posted by: jwc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Bobsays on Mar 14, 2007 3:06 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Humans have a long-standing relationship with animals as providers of food and clothing. We are built to eat meat and you can live a long and healthy life eating meat.
Militant vegetarianism always hauls out the same old arguments: it is more moral and ethical, animals take up too much space, aren't animals 'cute', meat is cancerous etc. etc.
Let me be clear: I agree with animal welfare and its advocates, I agree with avoiding the harm caused by using chemicals and hormones on animals purely for the purpose of churning out cheap meat, I agree with paying farmers properly, I agree with preserving traditional meat products like prosciuto, and I disagree with supermarkets like Piggly Wiggly who flog rancid recycled meat to customers.
Progressives should be fighting for the following: fair prices for farmers, retention of traditional meat products, animal welfare, chemical-free or low-chemical animals, access to animal protein to the world's entire population so that people can be healthy, and population control so that we do not need to overwhelm the environment to meet out food needs. At present, the left and progressives support a ridiculous policy of mass immigration to the developed world to jack up its population. Across the developed world, the third world is moving in and causing over-crowding in our cities and suburbs, overwhelming the environment with over-consumption.
Those are the fights for progressives if they really care about people and planet.
» Is it progressive to ban factory farming, hunting, fishing and trapping?
Posted by: aouie01
» RE: Is it progressive to ban factory farming, hunting, fishing and trapping?
Posted by: NicoSuave
» Thank you for appreciating and promoting good discussion.
Posted by: aouie01
» Cutting meat from diet IS progress
Posted by: ECtek
» Let's explore environmental destruction and progressivism
Posted by: Bobsays
» There'd be enough food to feed the world's population if humans stopped eating meat
Posted by: ramsey
» Billions of vegans are STILL far too many humans -- most animals would heartily agree.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» RE: There'd be enough food to feed the world's population if humans stopped eating meat
Posted by: mjabele
» "mjabele" - your ecological understanding (and concern) remain non-existent.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» Pat Kittle - "mandatory sterilization" for those who "overbreed"...
Posted by: mjabele
» Keep slandering me, mjabele, you war criminal.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» How am I "slandering" you.....
Posted by: mjabele
» Put "mandatory sterilization" in context, mjabele, where's that link?
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» RE: Put "mandatory sterilization" in context, mjabele, where's that link?
Posted by: mjabele
» You say I'm evasive, but I want you to post the link you promised, so who's evasive?
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» http://www.alternet.org/story/46805 /?comments=view&cID=569836&pID =564976#c569836
Posted by: mjabele
» Looks like you're gonna whistle Dixie...
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» Sorry, Pat.....
Posted by: mjabele
» I don't have to link to it -- I know what I said. I want it to be easy for others.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» The link is there - it just worked again (easily) for me, so it'll work for others as well.
Posted by: mjabele
Comments are closed-
Posted by: emmanuel_goldstein_fights_fake_lefties on Mar 14, 2007 3:34 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Formerly, under trueLeftism, the enemy of the left was the rich and powerful. NOW, the enemy of the new FAKELeft is the common man who does not happen to live the "proper" lifestyle. What is the proper lifestyle for the fakeLeft? Oh, just whatever nonsense they can whip up--vegetarianism, metrosexuality, etc etc etc.
» Regardless, re-examining what we put on our plate is a step in the right direction
Posted by: ECtek
» Rubbish.
Posted by: kevred
» RE: I hate to agree with you and your 1 trick posts...
Posted by: Techubus
» RE: I hate to agree with you and your 1 trick posts...
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» not a conspiracy, but an ecosystem with quasi-organic entities
Posted by: emmanuel_goldstein_fights_fake_lefties
» RE: Lol
Posted by: Techubus
» not a conspiracy, but an ecosystem with quasi-organic entities
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» Cry-o-troll's credo--Doesn't happen to straight, white men? Doesn't count! (NT)
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: YET MORE FAKE-LEFTIST NONSENSE! LEFTISM IS ABOUT MONEY, NOT LIFESTYLES
Posted by: Lincoln fan
Comments are closed-
Posted by: drblack on Mar 14, 2007 3:37 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
America is about freedom. It has disappeared,largely by the laws neocons have passed.
Take drugs,have sex with any consenting adult you wish, worship and believe what ever.......but if you think passing a law will change what people do then check out the "drug war".
Overpopulation causes so many problems. having children is much more damaging to the future of our planet.
Also science is the only thing that will save us. learn what it is and donot believe in old ,outdated books.
Mankind would never have survived the Ice age without eating meat and man would never have developed the brain that has made us what we are without the proteins in meat as well as the learning that went on to catch meat.
The technology is there to clone flesh and this will become how meat is produced in the future. Just like a hybrid or better a solar powered engine can allow one to drive an SUV and be good to the planet,cloned meat will eliminate all the concerns written in the article.
Everything living dies and we might as well enjoy ourselves by eating tasty food.
Be a vegan if you want and mind your self.
» Society already restricts freedoms for the benefit of other species.
Posted by: aouie01
» Freedom includes making responsible decisions when not just you are impacted by them
Posted by: ramsey
» RE: I love Vegans
Posted by: WWMD
» Freedom should not include enslavement and slaughter
Posted by: mwiese
» RE: Freedom should not include enslavement and slaughter
Posted by: Techubus
Comments are closed-
Posted by: aouie01 on Mar 14, 2007 3:37 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Standard short answer. I am vegan mainly for the animals, partly for the environment and health. But the true reasoning is a bit longer and is in four parts.
I don't eat factory farmed animals because I find it unnaturally cruel and exploitative. It is so unnaturally cruel and exploitative that I think society should ban the factory farming of animals.
I don't eat animals that are hunted or fished or trapped because I think it is unfair and irresponsible to use collective human technology against other sentient beings unless it is a matter of survival. When we (humans) make nuclear weapons or guns we (except for the arms industry) don't give them away indiscriminately partly for self preservation. I like to think that at least in part it is because we are trying to be responsible with the power of collective human knowledge. It would be unfair to use it against other humans without very good reason. For thousands of years collective human knowledge has been used against other species without sufficient thought as to whether it is unfair to the other species. Since I think it most unbiased logical analyses will find the use of collective human knowledge against other sentient beings to be unfair (unless it is a matter of survival). Even to this day, we still use our technology against many humans too in unfair ways. If and when society becomes almost ideally responsible about collective human knowledge then society should ban the irresponsible use of technology against other sentient beings unless it is a matter of survival.
I don't eat animals that I can catch and consume with my own natural body because I would rather not kill than kill a living being. I would rather not harm than harm a living being. I would not want society to force this principle on anybody and would actually vote against a law that wanted to outright ban humans from eating non-human animals. Just the same way I would vote against preventing a lion in a forest from eating a deer for food. There are many vegetarians and vegans who differ from me on this as they don't defer to nature as much as I do.
I don't eat naturally dead or accidentally killed animals (e.g. roadkill, animals dead in floods, old age, etcetera) because of the "yuck" factor.
So, avoiding unnatural cruelty, being responsible about collective human technology, and my personal religious beliefs are why I avoid most animal products. But, I am a vegan because of the "yuck" factor (Amusing, but true).
Sincerely,
Aouie
» RE: Why I am vegan (and to what extent should society restrict current meat-eating practises)
Posted by: jwc
» RE: Why I am vegan (and to what extent should society restrict current meat-eating practises)
Posted by: alterpa123
» RE: Why I am vegan (and to what extent should society restrict current meat-eating practises)
Posted by: aouie01
Comments are closed-
Posted by: TwinsFanatic on Mar 14, 2007 4:14 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Clearly it's creating a bit of a storm; for the same reason some abolitionists resisted suffrage, and some suffragettes resisted abolition, some progressives resist vegetarianism.
But vegetarianism is what progressive values are all about, which is why some of the great historical progressives—including Tolstoy, Gandhi, Einstein, and Schweitzer—were vegetarian advocates.
Being a progressive is about “comforting the afflicted and afflicting the comfortable.”
And no one is more afflicted than animals who are raised to be eaten.
Other animals are made of flesh, blood, and bone, just like we human beings are. They have the same five physiological senses. They are more like us than they are unlike us. Eating animals means eating the corpse of an animal who valued her life.
Tolstoy called vegetarianism “the taproot of humanitarianism,” because how can we call for peace, when we are powered by the product of violence and cruelty.
Einstein said that “nothing will benefit human health and increase chances of survival for life on earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet.”
Gandhi said in his essay, “The Moral Basis of vegetarianism,” that “to my mind, the life of a lamb is no less precious than that of a human being.”
All the defensive comments are great; we need to have the discussion. And all sides need to be heard.
Again, kudos to the Alternet for posting this article, and for posting it as the top item today.
» RE: Kudos to the Alternet for posting this article.
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» RE: Kudos to the Alternet for posting this article.
Posted by: don999
» Sorry, but you can't compare animals to humans
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Sorry, but you can't compare animals to humans
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: Sorry, but you can't compare animals to humans
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Sorry, but you can't compare animals to humans
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: Sorry, but you can't compare animals to humans
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Sorry, but you can't compare animals to humans
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: Sorry, but you can't compare animals to humans
Posted by: brunowe
Comments are closed-
Posted by: colinmeister on Mar 14, 2007 4:17 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The most important thing Alternet can come up with for a lead article is one which is trying to persuade people to eat what the author wants them to eat, and not what they choose to eat.
This stuff is trival banter, and should be relegated to the bottom of the list if it is posted at all - but what the hell, I'll forget all about it when I eat some nice foie gras for dinner tonight :-).
» thanks for the comment Borat
Posted by: ECtek
» RE: thanks for the comment Borat
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: thanks for the comment Borat
Posted by: ECtek
» RE: thanks for the comment Borat
Posted by: mjabele
» Still sneaking in cheap shots at me, eh, mjabele? Post the link you promised, hypocrite.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» It's posted above, Pat - have fun explaining your "mandatory sterilization" scheme to the rest of us
Posted by: mjabele
» Troll--ignore this person
Posted by: kevred
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ECtek on Mar 14, 2007 4:20 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Personally, I don't eat meat because I've seen how animals are treated before and after they arrive at the slaughter house. My feeling is that any self respecting person would not want to eat meat after they learn how common abuse to animals in factory farms it...we're talking about animals having their testicles cut off with no pain killer, birds having their beaks cut off so they don't peck each other to death in their tiny cages...If most people saw someone grab a robin and cut his beak off and then throw him back on the ground, they would rightly be pissed off. But when this happens to billions of birds raised for their meat, we are supposed to savor the taste? It is madness.
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Suzanne Carlson on Mar 14, 2007 4:36 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» Absolutely, try a meat free diet for a change
Posted by: ECtek
Comments are closed-
Posted by: lorenwrigley on Mar 14, 2007 4:46 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My guess is that most people can't afford to eat an elitist progressive diet.
» RE: "And yet, so many environmentalists continue to eat meat. Why?"
Posted by: don999
» RE: "And yet, so many environmentalists continue to eat meat. Why?"
Posted by: AngryWhiteFemale
» RE: "And yet, so many environmentalists continue to eat meat. Why?"
Posted by: tweedster
» You're close to the point--don't stop short!
Posted by: kevred
Comments are closed-
Posted by: lorenwrigley on Mar 14, 2007 4:46 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My guess is that most people can't afford to eat an elitist progressive diet.
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mercianomad on Mar 14, 2007 4:54 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I gave up driving a car. I commute, grocery shop, and tour by bicycle and it was the greatest decision I've ever made. I don't try and pulverize my brethren with propaganda about it though just because they didn't make the same decision. I do not say to them or to anyone else, "You still drive and call yourself a progressive? Look at who you're giving your money to by purchasing gasoline. Look at the damage you're doing to the environment. Look at how many people are killed in the US by autos alone (half an NFL football stadium's worth, not to mention all the animals). Look at how cars have affected development and communities." I choose to let people be instead. Labels like "progressive" are tough things.
I can be progressive in so many ways (hell, I voted Green), but yes, I will continue eating meat (though I gave up mammal meat of all kinds). Not only do I like the taste of it, but I don't feel ethically bad about it, and I eat it in moderation enough to say that I am quite healthy and hardly a burden on the environment, thank you very much. Another poster pointed out that where you get your meat is the big issue, and I agree. I have read "Diet for a New Planet," and while I liked it plenty, it didn't convince me of any imperative to give it up, and neither does this article.
I don't mean this comment to be OT or smarmy, by the way. I merely mean that we cannot all be expected to live like luddites in everything we do in order to claim the mantle "progressive," hence the whole thing I wrote above about autos. Personally, I feel that division amongst ourselves over issues like these is the worst thing possible. There are bigger fish to fry, and it's not from the ranks within.
» RE: Great post! I am getting more and more inspired to give up my car. eom
Posted by: mercianomad
» Right - I haven't owned a car since the '70s, so...
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: Excelent Post
Posted by: Techubus
» RE: You still drive and call yourself a progressive?
Posted by: lynned2002
» I was going to post, "You still use a computer and call yourself a progressive?"...
Posted by: mjabele
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Bev on Mar 14, 2007 5:10 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: Let's keep our focus on the real problem.
Posted by: hagwind
» you're so right.
Posted by: mnlefty
» RE: you're so right.
Posted by: mewhins24
» RE: you're so right.
Posted by: NicoSuave
» RE: you're so right.
Posted by: treestreet
» Yes! Thinking outside THE BOX!
Posted by: Mr. Heathen
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mnlefty on Mar 14, 2007 5:38 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My point is that yes, factory farming is bad. It is bad when used for vegetables, and even worse when used for livestock. But there are many of us who choose to eat meat only from known suppliers. I know the farmer who slaughters my meat. You have the right to have an ethical stance on meat eating. But farming vegetables and a small number of animals goes hand in hand. Grazing a few cows and raising a few chickens actually makes it easier to grow vegetables organically. The manure from 12 cows on a 100 acre farm is easily broken down for fertilizer. The cows graze areas that are not farmable and in limited numbers, actually control erosion. This type of meat production is a small, but growing percentage of us meat eaters.
I was a vegetarian for years and used to harp on people all the time, write articles, etc. I've read the data on both sides. You need to remove the moral argument if you are going to argue that it's about the environment. Eating locally is good for the environment. Small scale livestock production on an organic vegetable farm is good for the environment. Eating vegetarian at a restaurant that serves meat seems to still be supporting whatever farming method gets meat to that restaurant. If your argument is that killing animals is wrong, you should argue that. But unless you are eating only locally grown produce, your environmental point is not very strong. If you are really eating turnips and squash all winter long, fine, but if you are not (and I don't thing most vegetarians are) you are using a lot of fossil fuels getting all those environmentally 'friendly' vegetables to your plate.
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Lizmv on Mar 14, 2007 5:45 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First, I have thyroid disease. After years of eating vegetarian, I went back to eating meat because I found I felt better eating it. It seems I get a small amount of thyroid hormones from meat that I do not get from my medication. After years of eating less than most people, I have my weight stabilized and I am less likely to develop myxedema in the winter months.
Raising most of the food I eat myself is a sacred act for me. And I am always happy to be able to slaughter a chicken in a humane way in order to feed a hunger person. I also fish and collect shellfish.
Second, I know many farmers who are NOT factory farmers. Who love their animals and treat them kindly. I wish I could post a picture here of a farm I love to visit, with all the animals happily frolicking together, goats, cows, chickens, ducks, in the fields. Or the spotless barn the spend the night in. Can we stop lumping small-scale family farms together with the mega-scale industrial farms? It's comparing apples and oranges and our small local farms need our support in order to survive!
» If you are in need of thyroid support
Posted by: AdamG
Comments are closed-
Posted by: feduphoosier on Mar 14, 2007 5:52 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Personally, I have ethical issues with eating meat, but I am a Celiac (I cannot eat gluten) so my food options are pretty limited. Because labeling is lacking from most processed foods, I have to avoid just about everything - and that includes eating out in most restaurants.
Add to that a sugar intolerance created by years of antibiotics which has led to overgrowth of yeast (yuck, but I'm betting many of you out there deal with this.) So that cuts out even more food, and a majority of the starches.
I need protein, and yet I don't seem to do well and 'thrive' on an all bean diet. Occasionally I will eat locally grown meat, but mostly I supplement my diet with local dairy products. I probably eat better than most other Americans, but I'm still stymied at every turn by food additives that contain gluten, so I pretty much have to eat locally grown foods.
Little if nothing is said in this article about genetically modified plants. This is another issue we need to address - as highlighted by horror stories about genetically engineered corn. This isn't limited to corn... now they are coming for our rice. Vegetarians must also pay attention to what they ingest... our food is under attack from many directions.
If you want to know what you are eating, buy local, organically grown foods - and if you want meat and dairy, buy local milk, cheeses, yogurt and grain fed meat from local, organic farmers. You will be supporting your community small farmers (which will help them survive, and in turn continue to provide you with edible choices.) We all need the option to protect our health and environment by turning our backs on all mass produced food - not just meat.
» RE: Buy local
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
Comments are closed-
Posted by: hartsmart on Mar 14, 2007 5:58 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The shortcut to natural nutrition: greens to goat, goat for dinner.
And please, don't read label, veggies are substandard feed, almost ALL WATER!----Strange, how they defend brocoli, that nauseating weed.
hartsmartliving.com
» vegans don't wear wool
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
Comments are closed-
Posted by: richardschwartz on Mar 14, 2007 6:02 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While some climate experts are warning of global warming spiraling out of control in a decade, with catastrophic consequences, the UN Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) has reported that "livestock" agriculture causes more greenhouse gases (in CO2 equivalents) than all forms of transportation.
While there is widespread shortages of food and water in many areas, 70% of the grain produced in the US is fed to animals destined for slaughtr and animal-based diets require up to 14 times as much water as vegan diets.
There is much more to be considered, but I hope this will help make people aware of the urgent need for major societal shifts to plant-based diets.
» Blame humans not animals
Posted by: AdamG
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Betty82301 on Mar 14, 2007 6:08 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» It's also a big no no
Posted by: Lizmv
» RE: Soy is not our savior
Posted by: CriminallySane
» RE: Soy is not our savior
Posted by: icmfal
» RE: Soy is not our savior
Posted by: y_hat
» RE: Soy is not our savior - we have to just do our best
Posted by: anastasi
Comments are closed-
Posted by: owlbear1 on Mar 14, 2007 6:12 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Its a religous thing. I say thanks to everything I consume.
I don't insist Vegan eat meat, why do Vegan insist I don't?
» Why do I hold slaves and beat my children?
Posted by: TwinsFanatic
» What religion REQUIRES that you eat meat?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: What religion REQUIRES that you eat meat?
Posted by: zoomorph
» RE: What religion REQUIRES that you eat meat?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: What religion REQUIRES that you eat meat?
Posted by: zoomorph
» RE: What religion REQUIRES that you eat meat?
Posted by: ECtek
» RE: What religion REQUIRES that you eat meat?
Posted by: zoomorph
» RE: What religion REQUIRES that you eat meat?
Posted by: owlbear1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: FWillard on Mar 14, 2007 6:17 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: zooeyhall on Mar 14, 2007 6:22 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am a farmer myself. And I agree that corporate farming is harmful to the environment, and has similar economic costs. It would be better for the progressive community to push for more locally grown produce and support small producers. We could gain some real allies in the progressive cause if we did this.
Let's not do elitist articles like this. Too many vegetarians take an almost religious view of vegetarianism. This article, in particular, has a very elitist tone to it. I strongly suspect it was written by someone that I call one of the "Lexus Liberals". People who have, and will never have to face, the prospect of ever going hungry and not knowing where your next meal is coming from.
I participate in a program that donates cattle, hogs, and goat breeding stock to peasant farmers in places like Haiti. Hogs and goats are especially appropriate because they can eat almost everything, including local waste products. They don't require much land and add a vital supplement to the local diet.
According to this article, these poor farmers should "get religion" i.e vegetarinanism, and pop down to their local supermarket and get some organic tofu instead.
» I agree - and thank you
Posted by: feduphoosier
» RE: "let them eat organic tofu"
Posted by: AngryWhiteFemale
» lexus liberal, former model, self-help guru
Posted by: profoflitandtrout
» shooting the messenger, are we?
Posted by: ECtek
Comments are closed-
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Mar 14, 2007 6:35 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You aren't progressives. You are good little sheep following your various governmental shepherds. You dutifully vote for the less-terrible of two horrible candidates who will never do anything substantial to change the issues you care about because of their dedication to industrialism and corporatism.
You aren't making any difference because you aren't making any real changes!
www.greenanarchy.org
» speak for yourself n/m
Posted by: AdamG
Comments are closed-
Posted by: magnolia1405 on Mar 14, 2007 6:34 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I love the excuses being used here by meat-eaters for why they "have to" eat meat. Here's a sampling:
Nomadic herders eat meat
There's civil unrest in Zimbabwe
Children need fish
Cavemen ate meat
Cows and chickens are stupid
People eat bananas from Ecuador
Ridiculous? Yes. These sound like comments a third-grader would make. You eat meat for one reason--because you like it. And it's OK to admit that.
Meat- and dairy-laden Western diets are responsible for a multitude of health problems, including heart disease, asthma, obesity, cancer, etc. In addition, factory farms cause vast environmental damage--not to mention the hideous cruelty to animals. And it's all unnecessary.
I've been a vegetarian for decades and am in perfect health--on my last visit, my doctor stated that he wish all his patients were as healthy. I've never had to "backslide" into eating meat for health reasons--anyone who feels the need to do so has either been brainwashed by the meat and dairy industries, or is simply too lazy to eat a balanced diet.
Do yourself, the environment and the animals a favor--stop making excuses, and go vegetarian.
» health argument is baloney
Posted by: EasterBunny
» Do everyone a favor....
Posted by: feduphoosier
» RE: Do everyone a favor....
Posted by: sbrooks
» RE: xcuses...
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: xcuses...
Posted by: y_hat
Comments are closed-
Posted by: LeeAnnG on Mar 14, 2007 6:37 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I grow all my own vegetables and freeze or can them except for the raw ones I need for salads over the winter. And I'm working on that by planning to have a cold frame to grow lettuce next winter. I also buy all my eggs from a friend who raises chickens, I have started getting sausage from a local farmer and am looking into buying all my meal locally, and I eat venison.
No matter how much vegetarians go on about the moral issues, the truth is that life is in many ways violent. Other animals eat meat; that's the way of the food chain. If every human were to stop eating meat, the animal population would have to be cut in some other way. Yes, I realize that some of the animal populaton is large precisely because humans cultivate them, but anyone who lives in West Virginia, as I do, knows that the deer population is out of control. I sincerely hope that hunters do not stop culling the deer herds anytime soon.
Vegetarians can be healthy, but it takes time, research, and careful food selection to get complete protein and all the nutrients missing from the diet when meat is removed. Even more so for vegans who eat no animal products. For those who believe vegetarianism is important, this is not a huge consideration. However, it's the reason so many people have encountered vegetarians who seem ill or lethargic. These vegetarians apparently do not know how to eat the right foods in the right combinations.
As for the wide selection of soy products or other meat substitutes, I have tried them and find them revolting. Veggie burgers, soy dogs, fake chicken - all of them are unpalatable to me. I dislike tofu more than I can describe.
We all have our own ways of helping the environment. We can give up our cars or use them less, we can grow our own food or buy locally, we can become vegetarians or cut down on our meat consumption. But I really, really get tired of the preaching and holier-than-thou attitude of vegetarians. How dare the author challenge my right to be a "progressive" just because I refuse to give up meat?
Pack your bags! We're going on a guilt trip.
» RE: Self righteousness
Posted by: jwc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: JKirkner on Mar 14, 2007 6:39 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: rusjacobson on Mar 14, 2007 6:40 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: We are omnivores
Posted by: David V
» RE: We are omnivores and I am a lefty
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: We are omnivores and I am a lefty
Posted by: David V
Comments are closed-
Posted by: David V on Mar 14, 2007 6:45 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's a suggestion. I suggest that you READ AND LEARN:
You live your life in accordance with YOUR values and I'll live my life in accordance with MY values.
It is ENTIRELY POSSIBLE to eat meat and still minimize environmental impact, as well as shunning the products from the agri-industrial complex.
Get off your high horse or common-sense, moderate progressives (i.e. Me) will abandon the Democratic Party in droves, leaving it a far left fringe party of zero significance.
» Kathy Freston--you're invited
Posted by: zooeyhall
» This is the libertarian philosophy, not a progressive philosophy.
Posted by: TwinsFanatic
» DEAD WRONG...
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: This is the libertarian philosophy, not a progressive philosophy.
Posted by: David V
» KATHY FRESTON FOR PRESIDENT!
Posted by: ECtek
» What kind of argument is this?
Posted by: mjabele
Comments are closed-
Posted by: realist on Mar 14, 2007 6:47 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Even as a long-time progressive whose political views were partly inspired by "The Jungle" - a Progressive-era novel on the abuses of the meatpacking industry - I don't want to go there.
Veganism is a commendable practice for those who choose it. A discussion of its dietary benefits is important, especially in a world where almost noone gets the recommended minimum of five daily servings of fruit and vegetables. A discuss of its ecological benefits is also important. But to use the vegan lifestyle as a criteria for judging progressives would be absurd.
Sell the lifestyle on its own benefits, regardless of one's political affilliation. To link one with the other is to diminish both.
» Could be wrong, but I think the Alternet put this up b/c they knew it would generate good dialogue.
Posted by: TwinsFanatic
» RE: Could be wrong, but I think the Alternet put this up b/c they knew it would generate good dialogue.
Posted by: realist
» RE: Could be wrong, but I think the Alternet put this up b/c they knew it would generate good dialog
Posted by: sysiphus1963
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Posted by: moogyboy on Mar 14, 2007 6:49 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And I really object to the cliquish arrogance implied by the title: "Real progressives go veg. I'm a real progressive. You're not." Grow up.
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Posted by: electricmonk on Mar 14, 2007 6:55 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Eating vegetarian doesn't help the planet if it's not local. I'll take a local chicken over fruits and vegetables raised on petrochemical fertilizers, sprayed with herbicides, pesticides, and hormones, and that were trucked, flown, and shipped in any day. And oh dear, I hate to tell you what you are going to have to do to your clothes to be progressive. There's some nasty stuff in the woodshed there, too. So give us a break, give us some news, don't proselytize!
» RE: Oh Please! Something New?
Posted by: icj
» RE: Oh Please! Something New?
Posted by: anthroman
» RE: Oh Please! Something New?
Posted by: icj
» RE: Oh Please! Something New?
Posted by: anthroman
» RE: Oh Please! Something New?
Posted by: icj
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Posted by: Scientz on Mar 14, 2007 6:56 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: kelt65 on Mar 14, 2007 7:01 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nevertheless i consider eating meat more than a few times a week to be quite unhealthy; I feel much better on this diet, myself.
» Well, the real problem is not eating meat itself...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: carolinaraptor on Mar 14, 2007 7:04 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: A plant based diet is needed to bring back the balance
Posted by: carcinoid112
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Posted by: icj on Mar 14, 2007 7:05 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Full disclosure: I'm technically a pescatarian, meaning I eat fish - I couldn't give up sushi!!
Comments are closed-
Posted by: hot karlrove on Mar 14, 2007 7:06 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Fakeleft indeed. Fake lefties please go form your own political party and please stop assocciating with the Democrats and Greens.
You're just as bad as the neocon wingnuts in wanting to control my personal life.
Off to eat a hearty breakfast with STEAK and EGGS before I go to my UNION job.
» Actually.. he wasn't a vegetarian. That is a myth.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: mark_proulx on Mar 14, 2007 7:08 AM
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» RE: The trouble with progressivism...
Posted by: mercianomad
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Posted by: treestreet on Mar 14, 2007 7:16 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One middle of the night many years ago I remember coming out into the kitchen after reading the essay for the 3rd time. It was past midnight - I turned on the kitchen light and in the middle of the floor were two big arthropods facing it off (a lacy deca-footed almost vinagarone head-to-head with a large brown spider). What a testament to carnal reality - two critters who would be happy to eat the other. It was quite a message to me because I was in love with the treatise on "no meat" I had just re-read.
We have a renaissance of sorts in our country to support ranchers and farmers who treat meat animals right. I am lucky to live in a part of the country where there is still some range left and families who have for generations raised small herds now form the foundation of a movement where consumers can buy non-stockyard-raised beef.
If you talk to a good rancher - the truest land steward - you know that range land grasses grow better when they are eaten by range animals. Used to be buffalo. Cattle can join elk, deer, antelope. A good rancher will rotate stock around and protect their fodder in the ecosystem. This is a way of life that needs our support. Scrutinize the pamphlets at the market that describe the rancher's practices. Some places who claim to sell range-fed beef have a sentence or two that makes you question whether it is really range-fed.
I've read debates where folks argue for months whether humans are really omnivores. Viewing the treatment of most meat animals makes one want to be herbivore. However as our world grows increasingly complex, supporting farmers & ranchers who carry on good land stewardship also makes one want to eat meat.
» RE: ye olde herbivore vs omnivore debate
Posted by: cmaciain
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Posted by: HomerScarborough on Mar 14, 2007 7:19 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Homer Scarborough
» RE: Has everyone gone nuts!
Posted by: cmaciain
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Posted by: azelb on Mar 14, 2007 7:27 AM
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Posted by: Catgrrl on Mar 14, 2007 7:29 AM
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Mar 14, 2007 7:32 AM
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Posted by: OhioPatriot on Mar 14, 2007 7:40 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You behead lettuce before it can reproduce.
You pick and eat apples right in front of the mother tree.
You dig deep into the soil to find potatoes scurrying to hide.
Your cruelty punctures my faith in human compassion.
Please stop the carnage, so this years crops may seed.
» RE: Stop Posting Idiotic Rants
Posted by: AngryWhiteFemale
» RE: Stop Posting Idiotic Rants
Posted by: lynned2002
» RE: Stop Posting Idiotic Rants
Posted by: Techubus
» RE: Stop Posting Idiotic Rants
Posted by: OhioPatriot
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Lincoln fan on Mar 14, 2007 7:41 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If anyone has any tips on how to overcome this, I would appreciate it. Although I realize that it's probably psychological I don't want to spend a fortune on therapy. I've tried holding my nose but that doesn't work. Plus cooks take offense at that.
Bob Reichenbach,
Director, The Lincoln Initiative
» RE: Wanted !!- Some good advice.
Posted by: bookie
» RE: Wanted !!- Some good advice.
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Wanted !!- Some good advice.
Posted by: faeriefolk
» RE: Wanted !!- Some good advice.
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Wanted !!- Some good advice.
Posted by: jaby
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Posted by: robynmoore on Mar 14, 2007 7:44 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Clarksville76 on Mar 14, 2007 7:52 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hunter-gatherers did not live in a time of scarcity, but in fact a time of abundance, because the natural systems they derived their food from were stable, diverse, and resilient. Because of this they were not worried about tomorrow or next year or their retirement- which we cannot achieve- and therefore lived without anxiety over their security.
Also, hunters did not "dominate" the animals they hunted. They believed them to be as intelligent as themselves. The idea of dumb animals and domination came only after the advent of domestication and barnyard living. Hunting was more than killing for food. It was what Paul Shepard called the "Sacred Game".
The effects of meat on the human body are taken out of context to its original role to humans 12,000+ thousand years ago. How many of us eat wild game versus domesticated animal meat? How many of us walk and run almost daily? How many of us eat only fresh, whole foods? And how many of us have the discipline to eat only enough to feed the body, and not our psychological damage?
The sustainability problem starts with one issue: too many people. We evolved as hunters, and shared similar social characteristics and population density as true carnivores such as lions or wolves. We can surely live on a vegetarian diet, as I do, but we cannot populate the earth as if we are grass-grazing herding animals. The only way to live sustainably on this earth is to have lived the way our ancestors lived for 2 million years- collecting fruits, veggies, nuts, and tubers, and supplimenting these with occasional wild game, who harvest solar energy from natural environments without destroying them. Anyways, none of this is going to happen anytime soon, so I say we're screwed if we expect to live in harmony with nature anytime soon. If it makes you feel better to think you're making a difference, then go ahead, but that's just what you do to deal with the frustration and insecurity that we experience in this modern world. If there are resources to burn, they will be burned. While the toilet paper is plentiful, we are oh so wasteful with it. Only when we are down to the last few feet do we start to conserve. Until that day comes (which is now by most of our standards) don't expect sweeping changes to come from mostly white, upper middle class, educated university towns or the sewage covered streets of a 3rd world country.
And anyone who knows about permaculture or sustainable food production knows that growing all of one's calories is almost impossible using just plants; at least in the city. Two great solutions are tree crops, like acorns or mesquite beans, and raising micro livestock- rabbits and chickens. I challenge any of you to live on a diet of garden produce, acorns, and rabbit meat, and keep active with walking and running, and let me know if you develop heart disease.
» "Sustainability problem starts with one issue: too many people" -- Well said.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» RE: "Sustainability problem starts with one issue: too many people" -- Well said.
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: "Sustainability problem starts with one issue: too many people" -- Well said.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» RE: "Sustainability problem starts with one issue: too many people" -- Well said.
Posted by: anthroman
» We don't need to be called any more names by a war criminal like you.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» RE: We don't need to be called any more names by a war criminal like you.
Posted by: anthroman
» "Ecologically-based birth control" should be self-explanatory.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» RE: "Ecologically-based birth control" should be self-explanatory.
Posted by: anthroman
» RE: "Ecologically-based birth control" should be self-explanatory.
Posted by: Blade
» Promoting birth control, yes. But are you serious about pornography?
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» Such passive-aggressive confusion!
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» RE: Such passive-aggressive confusion!
Posted by: anthroman
» Not THAT passive-aggressive line again!
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» As Pat himself told me, "ecologically-based birth control" = "mandatory sterilization"...
Posted by: mjabele
» Yes, mjabele, provide the link -- context is always nice, isn't it?
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» "The Big Corporate Motherhood Conspiracy", Alternet, 20 February 2007
Posted by: mjabele
» No surprise you wouldn't supply the link, mjabele. Your slander wouldn't hold up.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» People can easily find the dialogue using the information provided.....
Posted by: mjabele
» You said you'd "link back to the previous thread if you want." Well then, do it!
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» Why don't you "do it", Pat - defend your position like a man, that is, rather than.....
Posted by: mjabele
» Trying out your "tough guy" pose, eh, mjabele? Well, you've got your BSer pose down, anyway.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» Ooooh, we seem to be getting really agitated now.....
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Ooooh, we seem to be getting really agitated now..... -- "We"? Meaning you, and who else? :-)
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» Sorry, Pat.....
Posted by: mjabele
» mjabele, I'm acting in good faith in trying to get overpopulation taken seriously.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» In response to Anthroman...kind of.
Posted by: Clarksville76
» Anthroman's response
Posted by: anthroman
» Your words say "not just population" but your deeds say "not population." Just admit it.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
Comments are closed-
Posted by: dikaiosyne on Mar 14, 2007 7:57 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» Ever heard of Herbivores? So.. switch already.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Tell you what......
Posted by: eatplants
» RE: Tell you what......
Posted by: Blade
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Posted by: sbrooks on Mar 14, 2007 8:04 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The point is that we can not all eat the same things. No amount of the writer's "patience and decorum" is going to render me able to subsist on plant protein.
» RE: Food Allergies?
Posted by: tlCampbell
» RE: Food Allergies?
Posted by: sbrooks
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ramsey on Mar 14, 2007 8:10 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted on behalf of Robin L. Tremblay-Costello
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Posted by: solrev on Mar 14, 2007 8:15 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» You said it.. pro CHOICE.. not pro ABORTION
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: You said it.. pro CHOICE.. not pro ABORTION
Posted by: solrev
» Be glad to...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Be glad to...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: You said it.. pro CHOICE.. not pro ABORTION *Information is part of choice*
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: N *Information is part of choice* true so
Posted by: solrev
» RE: N *Information is part of choice* true so **Human privilege rears its ugly head**
Posted by: maribelle
» RE:Let there be no confusion here
Posted by: Techubus
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Posted by: Boomerang on Mar 14, 2007 8:18 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go to work, come home, and grill up a delicious hamburger for dinner. I'll even top it with some delicious cheese (probably pepper jack, though the swiss has been in the fridge longer, hmmm).
If dictating people's diets is what it takes to be "progressive," then I think you know where I think you can stick your "progressivism."
» RE: Haha, yeah right
Posted by: bwv3.14159
» RE: Haha, yeah right
Posted by: Boomerang
» RE: Haha, yeah right
Posted by: bwv3.14159
» RE: Haha, yeah right
Posted by: zoomorph
» RE: Haha, yeah right
Posted by: bwv3.14159
Comments are closed-
Posted by: lynned2002 on Mar 14, 2007 8:20 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So if you want to be vegetarian knock yourself out. But leave me and my meat alone.
» RE: Beefy Progressive
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» killing everyone on this planet?
Posted by: sbrooks
» RE: killing everyone on this planet?
Posted by: lynned2002
» RE: killing everyone on this planet?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: killing everyone on this planet?
Posted by: sbrooks
» RE: Beefy Progressive
Posted by: lynned2002
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Posted by: Naomi on Mar 14, 2007 8:36 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1) The author says, "If you are an Eskimo, or you're living in sub-Saharan Africa and you're reading this blog, I'm not going to begrudge you your pound of flesh...But if you're reading this in a developed country..."
A developed country? So, Inuits, African natives, and other indigenous people are not developed? Into what? Over-consumptive, self-absorbed westerners who have totally lost their connection to the native wisdom and connection with the land of their ancestors?
Secondly, frankly its not your place to begrudge these indigenous people anything. They are NOT ASKING FOR YOUR OPINION, NOR YOUR APPROVAL for their traditional lifeway.
2) But none of us feels similarly at the prospect of pulling weeds or mowing our lawn -- because we know that weeds and lawns have no capacity to feel pain...I assure you, grass does not suffer like these poor creatures[animals] do."
Really? Are you sure about that? Do we know for a fact that plants don't feel pain - or something akin to pain? What about the age-old idea that everything is alive, and intelligent? Are plants excluded from that? So I guess when a native 'shaman' talks to the spirit of a plant, then this person is just imagining it?
The fact is, in a traditional indigenous world view, EVERYTHING IS ALIVE, and thus our use or exploitation of any living thing, including plants, comes with ethical and moral responsibilities and consequences.
To exclude plants from this connectiveness is ridiculous and convenient for reactionary people who have not bothered to consider this issue through the lens of someone who is not white, western, 'modern', and divorced from the living history of people and place.
Respectfully,
Naomi Archer
Four Directions Solidarity Network
www.eswn.org
arche@riseup.net
» RE: Unfortunately, a Racist, Ethnocentric Article
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Unfortunately, a Racist, Ethnocentric Article
Posted by: WitchyNy
» You want to bad-mouth Western civilization? Try this...
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» RE: Unfortunately, a Racist, Ethnocentric Article
Posted by: y_hat
» I almost took you seriously
Posted by: Phenix
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Posted by: Jarmadi on Mar 14, 2007 8:36 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author of this article, who also passes on a lot of fabricated information, should perhaps pause from searching for the moral pathology of meat-eaters, and instead inspect her own.
» RE: Stopping the Lying Might Help
Posted by: bwv3.14159
» RE: Stopping the Lying Might Help
Posted by: Jarmadi
» RE: Stopping the Lying Might Help
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: Stopping the Lying Might Help
Posted by: Jarmadi
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Posted by: Mike's Perspective on Mar 14, 2007 8:36 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Until we all can safely and wisely become vegetarians, I suggest a middle path approach.
» RE: You can still eat meat
Posted by: lynned2002
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Posted by: Betsy L. Angert on Mar 14, 2007 8:38 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The title alone caused me to sing with joy. I thank you soooooo much for writing this treatise.
I have written of the concepts in numerous comments online. I began a more definitive missive months ago. I need to finish that project. I have completed many an exposé on food and the folly of what many presume to be healthy eating. I always said I would never be a fanatic about healthy food, or anything else. Preachy practices are not mine.
Nevertheless, I remain haunted by those that claim to be Progressives and eat meat. These persons often think that wars, that kill, are an option. Obviously, from their own habits, slaughtering innocents is still an option. It is not for me. I want no wars ever; nor do I think murdering animals [or human mammals] is wise.
If we examine the financial cost alone, supplying meat to millions is expensive. The ways in which flesh "food production" depletes natural resources, yikes!
The inhumane practices involved hurt my heart!
May I offer my missives on food for your review. I invite any comments you might share.
Fast Food Is Not Fast
Childhood Obesity. Adult On-Set Diabetes. Osteoporosis. Soda
Weight. Balancing Fat with Feelings, Habits With Health
Calories Do Not Count. Cellular Considerations Do
Farming Is Falling, Effecting Our Food and Families
Betsy L. Angert
BeThink.org
Comments are closed-
Posted by: CriminallySane on Mar 14, 2007 8:48 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Does no one on the vegetarian side ever consider how little being a self-righteous scold will help your "cause"? You reveal a near-complete lack of understanding of human nature - when I'm badgered about something, by anyone, my impulse is to resist in direct proportion to how much I'm being badgered by whoever is doing it. And I'm pretty damned normal, in the incorrect (psychological/moral) as well as the correct (statistical) meaning of the word.
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jtinsf on Mar 14, 2007 8:53 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's easy to stop eating meat-how about doing something more useful instead? You can still be self-righteous about not driving.
Get a bicycle
» RE: Go vegan to save the environment
Posted by: LRayn
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Posted by: DaBear on Mar 14, 2007 8:55 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The entire article pretends to be persuasive then engages in all the guilt-shame tactics that most meat eaters (including the problem meat eaters who take their flesh off the factory-farm Freston rightly rails about) simply ignore anyway. Preach to the choir, why don't ya. I don't feel guilty at all for the manner and amount of meat my family occasionally takes on an annual basis. I feel even more confident that my food is taken from people I know persoanlly in addition to what we grow illegally on the porch—condo HOA's in CA can take your food, even your condo and bill you for that theft, thanks in no small part to folks who are busy railing against meat when they ought to be railing against the powerful CA HOA lobby.
All in all, pick your battles. This ain't mine, Kathy. Good luck with the alienating everyone with goofy analogies.
» RE: Wish there were more thoughtful responses like this N/T
Posted by: Techubus
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Posted by: koavf on Mar 14, 2007 9:04 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
2.) Secondly, to all would-be vegetarians, I would recommend a slow and well-informed transition to a non-meat diet. I made the change rapidly and in an ill-informed manner and it made me pretty sick for a few weeks. Since then, I have transitioned to eliminating all animal products from my diet, and I need to be sure to get B12. Also, I had some cabbage that was cooked in broth (which I did not know at the time), and it made me pretty ill. Be informed not only about the dynamics of a vegetarian or vegan diet, but also of what is in your food and from where it came.
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Posted by: eatplants on Mar 14, 2007 9:27 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: Vegan for 19 years -- My children will be PERFECT vegans -- How about yours?
Posted by: Pat Kittle
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Posted by: hot karlrove on Mar 14, 2007 9:31 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Am I on the freep or Limbaugh site?
You assume that any meat eater overtly supports corporate farming.
Sounds kinda like if you don't support the war you don't support the troops total bs associations and non-logic.
So, please disprove this "myth" and don't give me citations from the PETA site, that's just as silly as a wingnut backing up assertions as facts using FOX news as a source.
Really if this statement is a myth you have a great forum to set the record straight. I'm open to the truth so if you can prove it instead of just refuting my statement go for it.
» RE: HITLER WAS A VEGETAIRAN
Posted by: ericao
» RE: HITLER WAS A VEGETAIRAN
Posted by: profoflitandtrout
» RE: HITLER WAS A VEGETAIRAN
Posted by: ericao
» Not quite.
Posted by: kevred
» RE: Not quite.
Posted by: hot karlrove
» That's quite a roundabout way...
Posted by: kevred
» Ok... prove to me he was. YOU made the original claim. Burden of proof is on YOU. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» And Bush eats meat.
Posted by: WitchyNy
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Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on Mar 14, 2007 9:45 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Greenmarket (farmers' market) program has been very popular in poor sections of NYC - I don't know about LA - but the "progressive" veg argument needs to take into account the usual white liberal elitism and unacknowledged racism.
» Who said anything about being poor?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Who said anything about being poor?
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: Who said anything about being poor?
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» People in the Bronx or East LA actually LIKE EATING MEAT. Ever think of that?
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» RE: People in the Bronx or East LA actually LIKE EATING MEAT. Ever think of that?
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
Comments are closed-
Posted by: chomsky on Mar 14, 2007 9:47 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But American slaughterhouses are sweatshops. They employ people working illegally who can't defend themselves out of fear of being deported.
you failed to point our that our farms are not too much different. Having worked as a legal aid worker visiting large farms to speak with the workers about their rights, I can tell you that >90% of the workers on these farms are in this country illegally and suffer great injustice b/c of their fear of being deported or lack of knowledge about US laws.
From that standpoint, eating meat certainly won't decrease the amount of "sweatshop" labor in this country - it will just shift it from the meat factory to the farms.
» RE: Veg Farms are "sweatshops" as well
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
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Posted by: Scientz on Mar 14, 2007 9:56 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. In the broadest sense, the label "progressive" may be used in self-description of anyone who advocates any kind of change in a society, or in any part of the political spectrum.
2. In a somewhat more restricted sense, "progressive" is a term used within left-wing politics to distinguish those who advocate moderate or gradual social change - often called either "progressives" or "reformists" - from those who advocate larger and more rapid changes - called "revolutionaries" or "radicals".
3. Finally, in the most specific sense, there is the continuation of the political movement/ideology that began in the late 19th century. Progressives support the continual advancement of workers' rights and social justice. The first progressives were some of the earliest proponents of anti-trust laws and the regulation of large corporations and monopolies. They were also among the first advocates of government-funded environmentalism, and the creation of National Parks and Wildlife Refuges.
Its not "only vegetarians may apply" so don't let progressive values get hijacked by the vegan front.
» RE: THERE IS NO LITMUS TEST FOR PROGRESSIVISM!!
Posted by: Earthian
» RE: THERE IS NO LITMUS TEST FOR PROGRESSIVISM!!
Posted by: solrev
Comments are closed-
Posted by: VagusDoc on Mar 14, 2007 10:08 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
P.S. I love hamburger, turkey, and chicken! Fish is great!
» RE: Vegitarians = Born Again no such thing
Posted by: solrev
» Why did God make animals taste so damn good???
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» Why did God make animals taste so damn good???
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
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Posted by: WitchyNy on Mar 14, 2007 10:17 AM
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It is hand powered.
I use organic grain.
My family grinds all our grain and bakes all our bread. Therefore we have organic bread as the main basis of our diet.
This takes time, (not all that much) and one could attach a bike or a machine to the mill, but something happens...the grinding becomes a ritual part of the day...and we enjoy it.
And there is no comparsion to FRESH ground grains.
I have chickens, and my family eats eggs.
But my chickens run free and eat bugs and grass...and give me manure for my organic garden. I do not see how anyone can even HAVE an organic garden without chickens...what do they do for bug control and manure?
I don't eat my chickens...and even when they get old...they still eat bugs and give manure. I can do this because I am not interested in PROFIT. I am interested in a healthy-peaceful-family and life.
I think eveyone should get a goat. One goat can provide a family with milk for a long time...you don't need to breed her every year.
I do think Americans-especially city ones-are divorced from the land and the animals...and I don't think mass-produced vegetarian food is the long-term answer either. That is just fitting vegetarinism into the exsiting capitalist system.
A goat-for milk and cheese , chickens-for eggs, an organic garden, a GOOD grain mill...that will pretty much do the average family. And change the world. If only-
If you want to defend eating mass produced meat..you really should go visit a big factory slaughterhouse first. Then post a letter here.
I would be interested in reading a letter from somone who has done that and feels that it was a postive experience.
I bet not a one of you.
Has anyone considered the sexism in this issue? It seems it is mainly men who defend meat eating. Do they think it is macho? Is there something in the meat itself that feeds male hormones? Look at those scary commercials on TV..WE ARE MEN-WE EAT MEAT! What is that all about?
Personally I think vegetarian men are VERY sexy...maybe this is one way to fight this war. What do you say guys?
A beautiful healthy vegetarian woman..or Ann Coulter?
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Earthian on Mar 14, 2007 10:29 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When it comes to how we eat, most people are omnivores: they eat meat (including fish), veggies, fruit, eggs, cheese, grain products and more. That includes most of the 28 percent of the population who self-identifies as progressive.
Some progressives hunt and/or fish. They eat meat in a more local, more energy-efficient and more sustainable way than those who do not hunt for their food.
Most of the meat I eat is local venison harvested sustainably and humanely from the deer herd. If all deer hunting stopped the deer population in any given state would explode, for other predators do not exist in sufficient numbers to control their population. Then it would crash, causing enormous suffering by deer and farmers and car drivers alike. Local wildlife biologists know this and deer hunting is regulated to keep the herds sustainable. It is the same with other game animals.
I respect people who limit their diets based on their conscience. But a uniting policy not a divisive one is best.
So the progressive position on food should be something like "sustainable, environmentally safe, healthy and humanely produced food" not "eating meat is forbidden."
» WHY don't we have other predators?
Posted by: WitchyNy
» RE: WHY don't we have other predators?
Posted by: Earthian
» RE: WHY don't we have other predators?
Posted by: AdamG
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Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com on Mar 14, 2007 10:29 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is a reason people don't like Jehovah's witnesses, we don't like to be preached to by someone who wants us to convert to their "religion" and from what I've seen lately, vegetarianism and veganism is a religion.
People either want to eat meat or they don't.
There are many bigger stories out there, groups and goals, we should be trying to form and accomplish, that should be taking up the major news areas in Alternet.
Yet without fail these Veggie articles keep getting the most press here.
Its coming to the point where Alternet is looking like less and less of a news site worth my visit. Common Dreams isn't what it used to be, new interesting articles appearing less and less, and now Alternet seems to be going the Veggie route.
Where is a libertarian socialist supposed to get their news anymore?
» Progressives are different from liberals.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
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Posted by: harinama on Mar 14, 2007 10:42 AM
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Secondly, to those of you who are carnivores and dont give a shit about animals or environmental policy go suck on your SUV's tailpipe.
Lastly, to those primadona vegans, who lord it over everyone, live your own life BY EXAMPLE and stop the preaching.
Ok, with that out of the way. I have been a vegetarian for 20 years with increased health, food variety and a good conscience. HOWEVER, much of humankind has eaten an omnivore diet for millenia. It is not so much about eating meat, but how the animals are raised, killed and the environmental impact their production incurs.
This issue is not really about eating meat, it's about rampant American consumerism and multinational militaristic corporate fascism. Those that speak of eating ethically, namely local, organic and free range, really have it nailed. This does apply to meat and vegetables. It's about individuals and communities taking control of their environment, sustinence and inevitably health.
America's problems lie in the fact that we are not a member of the world community presently, we are attempting to be it's dictator, using our military might, and the World Bank Free Trade BS to force other govt's to submit.
We do not need preachy vegies telling folks not to eat meat, that will never work. What we NEED is to remove the multinationals from the equation, and start growing our own food, raising our own animals and CONSUMING LESS. I'd hazard to guess that the average American Family consumes at least 3x more goods and services than they actually need, and are 30%+ overweight. Lets dump the credit cards, save more and live for the future instead of always in the hear and now.
Most people are happy to make changes if they see the error of their ways and can afford it. Consumers can force ALL produce to become organic, and meat to be organic fed in the US and other countries by not buying it otherwise. As more consumers demand it, the producers will make it and the prices will come down.
Give thanx to the Spirits of all food you eat (animal or vegetable), the air you breathe, the earth you walk on, and culturally we'll begin to move in a more sustainable direction.
We do not live in a vacuum, our quality of life depends upon these things.
Frankly i'm tired of our Corporatist Fascist Overlords and their tv-based propoganda of rampant consumerism.
America has a lot of influence around the world, lets take a lead role in these issues, instead of being dragged kicking and screaming to the table.
» RE: It's not about eating meat, it's about corporate fascism and rampant consumerism
Posted by: WitchyNy
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Posted by: profoflitandtrout on Mar 14, 2007 10:47 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
-the claim in the initial para. that eating meat causes global warming is a non-sequitor: the livestock sector is definitely a large factor, but it does not follow that eating meat that is hunted or raised on smaller, sustainable scales participates in such a sector.
- that "something" arachidonic acid is an essential omega-6 fatty acid that mammals need. This doesn't mean one should be gluttonous in consuming poly-unsaturated fats, but that we need them as a biological imperative
-do fats really slow you down? As a mountaineer and trail-worker, protein has been a savior. This is especially true of the smoked salmon we have made from the salmon we harvest on our days off. Even the former vegan co-leader I worked with noticed the difference in energy. What about over-indulgence and a sedentary life?
-Is progressivism really about "telling" people to "stop-doing harmful things." This makes it sound like a patriarchal anti-libertarianism. Born and raised Wisconsin progressive ala Lafollete who, as the leader of the Progressive party fought for worker's comp, woman's suffrage, direct elections, progressive taxation, etc. Certainly, some of these issues can be interpreted as telling people to stop doing harmful things but are probably better understood as attempts to reign in upper class hegemony.
-"If we are to continue evolving, physically, emotionally, and spiritually..." Ah yes, the world made self-conscious by human beings. I've heard this too much in regard to Freston's articles and form those self-help New Agers like Weil. They always render evolution as a choice, which is curious in its vagueness, if not biologically ignorant. We have not physically evolve for at least 100,000+ years because there is not a requisite selective pressure (viz. sexual selection). Only a Lamarkian would believe otherwise-- attributes acquired by an individual in a lifetime are not passed on to offspring. Are we more emotionally and spiritually progressive than all previous traditions/cultures?
-the essay by Dr. Milton Mills utilizes the same illicit logic about biology as so much a vegetarian advocacy: that since we are more similar to herbivores than carnivores, then we must be the former. Come on, what about comparisons with the various omnivorous species, especially primates. Chimps fit this bill, and we are certainly biologically more similar to them than to mammalian ruminants.
-the might makes right law of the jungle is bullshit. It never existed so we don't need to progress away from it. This tends to equate meat-eating with brutality, that Pleistocene hominids ignorant of the complex negotiations that participated in and were thus cruel.
And now, a vicious, speculative ad hominem by an environmental activist from out in the Rockies regarding the suspicion that Freston is an unreliable source: On Freston's own website which tauts her many celebrity appearances as a self-help guru, she features her full-body image on the cover of "Hamptons" magazine. The Hamptons, huh? Oh, and is that a nose-job? I may not be an Inuit, but I am also not one of the Long Island elite.
» RE: Having made to much sense, you will be ignored
Posted by: Techubus
» Great repsonse
Posted by: Phenix
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kevred on Mar 14, 2007 10:54 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1) This article is an opinion piece. It's not a classroom, it's not a church, it's not an instruction manual for your life. It's someone posing a challenging question, with an immediate mechanism for feedback to boot--that's a lot less of a one-way communication than you get in most places.
The writer's not making you do anything, or saying you have to live one specific way--she's telling you what she thinks about these issues, in response to concerns her friends have. She's posing questions and providing examples. She's being intellectually provocative. That's what writers do.
2) It's a very thoughtfully written piece. With all the potential for demogoguery and propaganda, it's obvious how much effort the writer took to be gentler and more balanced than she could have been.
That doesn't mean you have to agree with it at all, but it means that you should be civil. Disagree with every point she makes, but don't hide behind this online anonymity to hurl insults, be rude and vulgar, and act like you've somehow been deeply hurt or offended by someone having a different opinion than you. That's stupid and childish and pathetic.
What I see in all these negative posts are two things, mainly: some are obviously desperate people who don't like being challenged, and who don't have any interest in questioning themselves. Others seem to be long-time champions of dearly-held ideals who are to the point of desperation that they're being ignored by the world at large--a stressful state that I get into myself at times.
But regardless--anyone who is thoughtful can read this article and disagree with it in a thoughtful way. You can believe she's all wrong and still use it as an opportunity to question yourself. If you can't do that, then don't blame the author or the site, don't point to some intangible "agenda" on anyone's part, and don't excuse yourself--you're the one with the problem.
So disagree away, but grow the hell up. You're making all your own ideas look bad by being such whining brats. The best way to counter an idea you disagree with is to present a better one--not tear town and slander the other person. Leave that to the politicians.
» RE: TO ALL THE WORKED-UP NEGATIVE POSTERS:
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» Why can't you pathetic-disgusting-whiny-brat-scum be nice to each other?
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» Kidding aside, "kevred," your point is well taken.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» RE: TO ALL THE WORKED-UP NEGATIVE POSTERS:
Posted by: profoflitandtrout
» Yes--negative in tone and dignity.
Posted by: kevred
» RE: Yes--negative in tone and dignity.
Posted by: zoomorph
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Posted by: wallart2006 on Mar 14, 2007 10:56 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We live in a "free" market, capitalist, oil-subsidized economy. The farming industry is given specific tax-funded subsidies to produce greater amounts of certain foods. The food industry is in the largest two or three industries in the country. Like the oil-subsidized transportation industry, the necessary changes in the food world are not going to be made any time soon.
As for myself: when I am confident that I can live on vegetables just as conveniently and cheaply and healthily and satisfyingly as I can by eating meat, I'm not going to be the one to invent a new lifestyle for myself. I don't have the time, energy or money for it.
--Dan
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Posted by: dbatterman on Mar 14, 2007 10:56 AM
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Telling folks that they have to conform to some sort of code of behavior to be good little followers is no worse than the far right talking heads. We need more freedom of thought in this country, not more sociologically enforced rules.
» So, you're supporting "more freedom of thought"...
Posted by: kevred
» not my point...but...
Posted by: dbatterman
» Good point.
Posted by: kevred
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Posted by: aethr on Mar 14, 2007 11:06 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Grains and legumes have also been linked to immune and neurological diseases. There is reason to believe that lack of fish in the diet leads to increases in mental illness. A vegetarian diet is simply not a healthy diet.
One of the problems with methane production in cattle is the use of grain as a primary food for cattle. Cows are grass eaters. Changing cattle diets back to a natural grass diet results in significant reductions in methane. Similar things happen to humans on a healthy, natural diet that includes meat.
Anyone who chooses their diet for reasons other than nutrition and health is just plain stupid. In a human diet some meat is healthy, grains and legumes are not, for the species as a whole. But if you're really concerned about global warming, stop eating processed foods. Go ahead and build a diet around raw, unprocessed grains and legumes.
» RE: pre-processing = global warming, too
Posted by: WitchyNy
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Posted by: Siegelami on Mar 14, 2007 11:12 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Siegelami
P.S. Fruits and vegetables are just as much living as animals. We are all made up of the same cellular building blocks, and many plants do exhibit life functions that illustrate feelings and inteligence. Just because plants don't scream, doesn't mean they do not feel pain. If you eat plants, you are a killer too! Get off your soap-box...
» RE: Sounds like Fox News for Veggi-Heads
Posted by: tweedster
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Posted by: Darrell Kern on Mar 14, 2007 11:15 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Our cut off date is April 15th. After this date we will not serve anything with a face for dinner.
If it has a positive impact on the environment, then that's awesome. The spiritual impact for us will be the major benefit.
Comments are closed-
Posted by: lauraf on Mar 14, 2007 11:45 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: zoomorph on Mar 14, 2007 11:56 AM
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I am First Nations. I live in your so-called "progressive" society - a culture foreign to me, that I'm learning to survive in. Eating meat is part of my culture, but that's not ok, simply because I live in this "progressive" society.
That's pure unadulterated crap. You think it's so easy to eat? To change your diet? Guess again. I'd actually give this chicky the time of day if she made any sense whatsoever. Open your eyes and look around. Your country can't even feed all it's own people. People starving, malnourished, dying from lack of food... but "oh! you should be a vegetarian! Oh, you aren't progressive if you eat meat..." Yeah, ok. Progressive, but dead - because, TA DA!, no food.
All this opinion piece pointed out to me is that even so-called "progressives" can't see beyond their noses. I'd think the issue is more "make sure everybody can eat" before preaching about the evils of meat consumption. Get your head outta the sand, chicky. All this pointed out is that as you consider yourself a progressive (simply because you don't eat meat? Hillarious!) then is it logical that I consider all progressives as self-centered, self-righteous, near-sighted fools?
Hmm. The evils of assumptions. Don't worry, I already consider the author an ass, and know that some readers of this post will consider me as such as well. Oh well. Go back to your milky-vanilla-cookie-cutter lives. Don't look past the boarders of your comfy homes, what you see you won't like.
» RE: Self-centred Self-righteous Opinion Piece
Posted by: jwc
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Posted by: ro on Mar 14, 2007 11:58 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: A Vegan--NOT!
Posted by: aethr
» RE: A Vegan--NOT!
Posted by: ro
» You both should check out 'Nourishing Traditions' by Sally Fallon
Posted by: AdamG
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Posted by: dearOread on Mar 14, 2007 12:16 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This post makes me realize more and more why I've abandoned this pit of leftist fundies and ran to Ms Huffington's place and reason.com. Ferzombiejesus' sake, people. Get a grip, get a hobby.
» RE: Mutually exclusive terms, oh irony, oh laughter.
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» No kidding, I agree 100%!
Posted by: Setnakt
» RE: Mutually exclusive terms, oh irony, oh laughter.
Posted by: profoflitandtrout
» They are not mutually exclusive terms
Posted by: fanny666
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Posted by: brewjaz on Mar 14, 2007 12:35 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The energy, specifically fossil fuels, that is needed to support the standard American diet, which consists of 6 to 9 billion animals annually, produces a significant amount of greenhouse gases.
The average American diet requires an extra ton and a half of carbon dioxide equivilent, in the form of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases, compared with a strictly vegetarian diet.
In 2002, energy used for food production accounted for 17 percent of all fossil fuels used in the U.S. And the burning of these fossils emmited three quarters of a ton of carbon dioxide per person.
And farm animal production, i.e. gas from animals, and their feces, produces large amounts of methane and nitrous oxide.
So when you replace your hamburger, ham and cheese and a glass of cow’s milk, with a salad, you are doing more than leaving your car home and walking to the grocery store.
With so many vegetarian and vegan options available in restaurants nowadays (or just ask to modify a meal if there are none), it is easy to eat great plant based foods Many are found at local grocery stores too.
You’ll not only be saving the planet, you will also be eating much healthier.
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Posted by: jnutt on Mar 14, 2007 12:53 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I AM A MEAT EATER.. Always have been.. Hold on.. you don't know where I am going with this...
I have veggie friends... personally I can't stand the taste of 99% of veggies I have eaten.. ya I know, grow up me.
My biggest, and really only, problem with this article is as follows...
What about the COST of being a vegan?
I live near Youngstown, OH. With me still? I know you've heard of the little hell hole comprised almost entirely of run down houses. This area lost all its beloved steel mills and since the 1950's has lost half of it's residents. That means we poor. Mmk?
So back to my point, yes I had/have a point.
How the hell am I supposed to be able to afford a veggie only diet? I do enjoy meat, yes... but I don't agree with the way they are treated, nor do I condone their effect on the environment.. but I am picky as all hell and most of the things I would consider eating are organic AND ungodly expensive... So what now? Have you tried feeding a family of 5 an all vegan diet in the Youngstown, OH area? Our prices for the goods are just as high, if not higher, than yours... we only have maybe 3 sources for these goods (i.e. Giant Eagle (ugh), and around two health stores).. so what am I supposed to do? That is what I want to know... I want to know what the hell I am supposed to do. I can't afford it... I like to EAT.. I don't care what I eat.. but I want food all the time. How am I to afford eating the way I want on an all vegan diet? I mean really. Have you made $8 an hour recently? Gas prices? Rent? and then all organic or vegan? I want an answer. I also want to know why the hell cost wasn't covered in this article... That is a huge concern for a lot of meat eaters...
K I'm done w/ my rambling.. bye~!~
» RE: Ya know...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Cooking skill
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: Cooking skill
Posted by: WitchyNy
» i live on rice, beans, tortillas, peanut butter...
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» i used to have the same type of diet
Posted by: Phenix
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Posted by: Gravitas on Mar 14, 2007 12:57 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For years I avoided meat mainly because I didn't care for it. But I am eating it more and more simply because of all those self-righteous loud mouths who have the gall to tell me how to live! I am not alone. A friend of mine was hassled by a group of those stringy haired, plain Jane PETA members at Taste of Chicago. He went out and got the biggest order of ribs he could find and ate them right in front of them. No one likes to be told what to do by people who are severely flawed themselves. It is fine to point out why cutting back on meat might be a postive choice, but when you start sounding like Jerry Falwell you have gone too far. I would go out an have a burger right now, but your article made me sick to my stomach!
» RE: Vegetarism = The New Fundamentalism
Posted by: profoflitandtrout
» Sounds like the size acceptance advocate needs to work on acceptance.
Posted by: kevred
» How dare you! Vegetarians live on dewdrops and shit rainbows!
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
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Posted by: Aimee on Mar 14, 2007 1:08 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, those of us who are vegetarians should be glad that there are so many who are meat eaters. What if everyone stopped eating meat? The price of non-meat items would go up.
I believe that those who are so upset about the vegetarian issue should just keep on eating meat. Population control.
As for global climate change - well it is too late to stop it. But we should all be very concerned and do our best to curb it by changing our lifestyle. Opps! Change our lifestyle? Another a touchy subject.
Cheers,
Aimee
DataOptions.com
» Can you read?
Posted by: Phenix
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Posted by: meow1229meow on Mar 14, 2007 1:13 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The way animals are raised, kept, and slaughtered is not only cruel and inhumane, but unhealthy. Pregnant pigs are kept in crates so small they can not even turn around or stretch their limbs. Calves are ripped away from their mother at hours old to be kept in crates where they are chained by the neck and kept anemic. Ducks are force fed until their throats bleeds and their stomach explodes. Chickens crammed by the dozens into small, wire cages where they would basically cannabalize each other had it not been for the fact that they have their beaks seared off.
This is not your picturesque farm that suppports small families who rely on the earth for their livelihood. These are huge corporations making billions of dollars torturing animals. I want no part of it and the fact that it is beneficial to the environment as well only confirms that I am making the right choice.
» RE: Vegetarianism is the right choice
Posted by: pubwvj
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Posted by: emgscot51 on Mar 14, 2007 1:15 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe the author should try to care as much about humans as she does about animals. I'm sure she doesn't drive a car or otherwise pollute the air but we can't all be that perfect.
I'll settle for imperfect progressives.
» yes! and now google up "telescopic philanthropy"
Posted by: emmanuel_goldstein_fights_fake_lefties
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Posted by: Fade on Mar 14, 2007 1:50 PM
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I'll turn vegetarian when-
You can grow a celery stalk that tastes like beef jerky
Create soy products that taste like yummy, greasy fatty bacon
But until then, I will be a progressive Omnivore. Sorry.
P.S. How do you know the plants aren't screaming bloody murder inside when some farmer takes a scythe to their trunk, spilling their lifejuices to the ground?
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Posted by: profoflitandtrout on Mar 14, 2007 1:55 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» profoflitandtrout: strangely angry
Posted by: kevred
» RE: profoflitandtrout: strangely angry
Posted by: profoflitandtrout
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Posted by: gmknobl on Mar 14, 2007 2:11 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Look, I open my mouth and see incisors. You know, those pointy vampire teeth we have. This marks us as meat eaters. Omnivores. Yes, we can survive as vegetarians but until the lion truly sits down with the lamb, I'll be consuming from time to time but doing it as humanely as possible.
Go ahead and disagree if you want but don't say what I'm saying is wrong and immoral. That's just immoral!
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Posted by: farmerbob2007 on Mar 14, 2007 2:16 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Clip 1
Clip 2
Clip 3
See this movie & I doubt if you will still be able to eat meat.
» I watched them
Posted by: AdamG
» I ate meat for all 33 years of my life....
Posted by: EDDIE B
» POWERFUL
Posted by: gellero
» RE: ATTN Meat eaters:
Posted by: Darrell Kern
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Posted by: pubwvj on Mar 14, 2007 2:30 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: lamar on Mar 14, 2007 2:49 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» Yes, "freaks like you" is very non-judgmental.
Posted by: kevred
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Posted by: RedWriter on Mar 14, 2007 3:05 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Self righteous priggery will be the doom of progressive politics. When only Republicans can enjoy steak, ale and a good cigar they'll be forever in the majority.
» You missed it
Posted by: gellero
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Posted by: ManipulationNation on Mar 14, 2007 3:14 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, I have found that there are some incredibly good reasons to become vegetarian:
1. It's much healthier for individuals to eat fruits and vegetables. There's about as much real debate about this as there is about global warming.
2. Meat-eaters have a much higher incidence of heart disease and cancer, amongst other diseases. Again, there's no real debate anymore on this.
3. About 20% of the world's carbon-based emissions come from the raising, killing, and transporting of animals and their carcasses for people to eat.
4. About ten times as much water is used to produce a pound of beef as to produce a pound of fruits or vegetables.
5. Rainforests, which produce a surprisingly significant amount of the world's oxygen and moderate the world's climate, are being eliminated at a rapid rate to allow more room for cattle to graze and for grains to be grown to feed the cattle.
6. A large percentage of the world's grains are used to feed animals destined for our food supply. This lowers its availability for people, and raises the price of grain for impoverished people in the world. Almost all third world countries are importers of grain.
7. It doesn't feel very good to me to think about eating animals that were tortured and killed so I can avoid eating fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and nuts.
8. It feels good to me to be different and yet feel fully confident that the choices I make are for the right reasons.
A lot of people believe that if we don't eat meat, we can't get enough protein. There is so much written showing that this is not true, including in John Robbins' "Diet for a New America." In fact, there is a lot of evidence showing that eating protein from animal products can actually decrease the calcium in our bones.
In the future, people will ask, "When there was no real reason to eat meat, and so many reasons not to, why did people do it?"
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Posted by: lauraf on Mar 14, 2007 3:17 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: Go Vegan for Life
Posted by: mjabele
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Posted by: hschwing on Mar 14, 2007 3:29 PM
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Posted by: texshelters on Mar 14, 2007 3:34 PM
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When I was a vegetarian, I was sick, pale and fatigued. It was not the best diet for me. It is for some. Where did you get the fact that all great altheletes are vegetarian? Can you give me a website or book I can read that in. I know many a good athlete that does eat meat.
So, eat healthy for yourself, yes, eat less meat, eat locally, but our teeth tell the story:
we have incisors for meat, and molars for plants.
HUMANS ARE OMNIMORES.
Joe Tex
» totally true. i'm a fat vegan!!
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
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Posted by: joshuawelch on Mar 14, 2007 3:40 PM
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» RE: Pathetic humans and pathetic arguments
Posted by: texshelters
» RE: Translation - I went to some schools and now I think I'm smarter than everyone..
Posted by: Techubus
» last time we argued, you were left grasping for straws
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: last time we argued, you were left grasping for straws
Posted by: joshuawelch
» RE: last time we argued, you were left grasping for straws
Posted by: mjabele
» I thought you vegans were all peace love
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: Pathetic humans and pathetic arguments
Posted by: driftwolf
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Posted by: vangogh69 on Mar 14, 2007 3:40 PM
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I'm posting because I'm curious about what is, frankly, the violent and hostile reaction people seem to have towards vegetarians in general. I can't tell you how many times I've been at a dinner, told them I didn't do meat, and gotten the look of horror as if my eyes were bleeding!
From a health perspective, the question need not be why not choose meat but rather, why EVER chose meat? Humans clearly don't need a steady diet of it to live, certainly not in the 21st century. Additionally, cutting down rainforests to make land for cattle is extremely short-sighted as the meat will only live for a few years (if that) while those mighty trees, WHICH HELP MAKE IT SO WE CAN BREATHE ON THIS PLANET (!), will take hundreds of years to grow back, if they can at all (given the effect of greenhouse gases now, the general warming of the planet, and the shifting of oceanic & transcontinental cooling patterns). Sure, we get the beef at the supermarket today, but say, in 1,000 people may not be able to inhabit 50% of the now-liveable Earth due to it being too hot/cold.
I agree with the author that true progressives are so in all things, not just selected topics.
» Ah, so please tell us EXACTLY how you're "progressive" in ALL other things.....
Posted by: mjabele
» Are you blind or just...
Posted by: Phenix
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Posted by: wireup on Mar 14, 2007 3:50 PM
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I have responded to a number of such articles on this site. As a former vegetarian - first lacto-ovo and then vegan - for quite a few years, I think I can speak from experience.
Each time I was a vegetarian for a number of years. Did everything right, DIET FOR A SMALL PLANET was my bible. But it didn't work for me. Each time I became even sicker because I needed animal protein.
If you think it makes me happy to know this, you are sorely mistaken. I hate eating animal protein but I have no choice. I feel a hell of a lot better when I eat it. And, as the former owner (for 8 years) of a natural food store, I saw this more times than I can count - people, like me, honestly and sincerely committed to being vegetarians who could NOT be vegetarians.
So, what are we supposed to do? Stop eating?
No. I do the best I can by purchasing organic as much as possible, whether it is protein, fruits, vegetables, whatever. Often it costs a lot more but I'm willing to pay it as long as I have the money because it's the only sensible way to go.
I'm aware that there are strong attempts to water down organic standards. So I am fighting back. I recently moved to a large city where there are ongoing farmers' markets. The first one I went to had a lot of organic food and I intend to keep going and couple this with shopping at the local health food stores.
I'm not going to lay down and die because I can't be a vegetarian. But I AM going to remain committed to supporting sustainable farming and organic farming as much as possible.
If you are fortunate enough to be able to survive as a vegetarian, I envy you. Truly. You stand for me and every other person who would like to do what you do.
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Posted by: wireup on Mar 14, 2007 4:04 PM
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It is inadvisable to make cats vegetarians. They are NOT. They require the amino acid TAURINE. A deficiency can cause blindness. Of course, you can supplement, but you really need to know what you are doing.
http://www.vegsoc.org/info/catfood.html
I fully sympathize with you. I had cats and dogs when I was a vegetarian. These animals are NOT vegetarians in the wild, they are meateaters. It is not fair to them to force a vegetarian diet on them. Give them a choice and I guarantee you that they will chose meat every time!
» RE: Cats and Dogs are NOT vegetarians.
Posted by: opeluboy
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Posted by: carcinoid112 on Mar 14, 2007 4:19 PM
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You get a competent medical professional to look over my dietary needs (cancer and other related illnesses) and my allergies and come up with a way I can eat vegetarian, much less vegan. I couldn't even manage lactovegetarian (no ovo- included, I'm allergic to eggs. Oh, yeah, AND soy.)
So, if you GOTTA run articles that promote policies that will kill people, mark them plainly.
SOME PEOPLE CANNOT SUSTAIN LIFE ON A VEGETARIAN OR VEGAN DIET.
There are more of us than you think.
» RE: Alternet, WHY do you want to kill me?
Posted by: sbrooks
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Posted by: ericao on Mar 14, 2007 4:39 PM
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I don't understand why that point isn't obvious. It's not as though pointing out that exceptions exist proves that the arguments made in the article are bunk. The majority of people in the "developed" world do not have such limited diets and are able to make more choices about what they eat and where it comes from.
I am a vegan, but I know people with serious health issues that limit their appetite and ability to eat at all. Sometimes, the only thing they can stomach is a steak. Do I think they are wrong for eating that steak? No. Would I rather that person die and become malnourished? Obviously not. But, does that person's particular situation have any impact on what I think the vast majority of people should take into account when making dietary choices? Absolutely not.
It's necessary to hear about the minority or individual positions and the challenges they pose, but it's additionally important to keep the big picture in mind when discussing these kinds of issues. There shouldn't be a gag order on topics just because there are exceptions to the rule.
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Posted by: tomkara on Mar 14, 2007 4:49 PM
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» YES I AM!!! PROGRESSIVES----PLEASE HAVE KIDS!!!!
Posted by: WitchyNy
» Oh great -- get in a baby making race with the 3rd world.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» RE: Oh great -- get in a baby making race with the 3rd world.
Posted by: WitchyNy
» For the 1000th time, I don't like OVERbreeding. Now, why didn't you answer my question?
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» RE: Oh great -- get in a baby making race with the 3rd world.
Posted by: AdamG
» Thanks, AdamG, this isn't about race -- it's about ecology.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
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Posted by: lavajin on Mar 14, 2007 4:55 PM
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Bravo!
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Posted by: Sparks56 on Mar 14, 2007 5:24 PM
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Eat your beans and soy, drive a hybrid, ride a bike. You'll be healthier and you can feel superior to the rest. But don't kid yourself that you're part of some "solution" that's going to turn the planet into the Garden of Eden, or even slow the current human mad dash to the ecological cliff.
If we progressives want to save the human race from itself, there are two, and only two, issues; birth control and the education/emancipation of women. period. Everything else is irrelavent.
Years ago I saw a bumper sticker that read;
"If your cause does not include population control, it's a lost cause."
Enjoy your bean sprouts.
» Bobvz@cox.net
Posted by: Robert Veasey
» Ecological ignorance is bliss, isn't it?
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» RE: cological ignorance is bliss, isn't it?
Posted by: Sparks56
» Thanks, raverill -- my sentiments exactly.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» bobvz@cox.net
Posted by: Robert Veasey
» I figured you didn't care about ecology, but you do -- you HATE it with a passion.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» RE: Bobvz@cox.net
Posted by: Sparks56
» bobvz@cox.net
Posted by: Robert Veasey
» RE: bobvz@cox.net
Posted by: Sparks56
» RE: Bobvz@cox.net -- Agreed, plus we should actively promote the importance of birth control.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
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Posted by: bleppo on Mar 14, 2007 5:32 PM
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Having grown up away from wildlife and farms, vegans subconsciously assume
(1) that animals not killed by humans for food are immortal -- i.e., such animals never die; only humans cause their deaths (i.e., if humans stopped killing them the animals would never die).
OR
(2) that animals not killed by humans for food die of old age, like humans in hospices (therefore, humans cut short the otherwise long lives of animals).
Here’s the reality regarding both of these errors:
(1) all animals die even if humans don't kill them.
AND
(2) animals not killed by humans almost never die of "old age" in the human sense of "old age," meaning not by accident, attack or disease.
Have you ever seen the photos of a young injured moose as it collapsed alone in the wild? Over 3 DAYS, while still ALIVE, crows pecked out its eyes and nibbled elsewhere, only interrupted by some small carnivores, which joined in on the LIVE moose, followed by medium carnivores, which joined in on the LIVING MOOSE, followed by larger carnivore/omnivores, which killed and ate it.
THREE days being slowly devoured alive! And the lifespan of rabbits in the wild? Domestic rabbits live MUCH LONGER than wild ones.
The real questions are not whether to kill and eat animals, but the following:
(1) "What is the quality of life of animals being raise for food?
AND
(2) "How are such animals killed to minimize their suffering?"
A vegan may balk at #2, "The least amount of suffering is not to kill!!!" but that proves my point that such a vegan subconsciously thinks that the animal will live forever if humans don't kill it or that the animal will live a long life in the wild followed by a hospice-like, protected decline and death.
These are blatantly wrong assumptions resulting naturally from growing up in a TV cartoon society where animals are rarely seen dying in nature, whether live or on TV, and aren’t even seen dying on farms.
When confronted with the reality that humans kill animals, the vegan mind fails to make the complete connection that all animals die under different circumstances, some of which are order of magnitudes worse than death by humans. Cartoons fully push this warped view of nature, with anthropomorphic creatures living to ripe old ages in warm tree-cabins with cozy little fires in the fireplace.
I completely agree, however, about the horrid quality of life for animals raise for food.
I buy lots of meat from a local ranch that is certified organic and humane. The animals on this ranch have high-quality lives and are killed in the field quickly and smoothly without terror.
Certified organic and humane is best for humans and animals, considering animals on certified organic and humane farms don't die slowly and agonizingly over a 1-3 day period as they do in the wild. (Carnivores might find privacy for their own deaths, but typically not prey.)
Additionally, many vegans and vegetarians don’t consider the bad effects of farming. Are animals allowed to live on the tens of thousands of acres of cropland? No. Thousands, probably millions, of acres have been taken away from animals.
Furthermore, many farmers cruelly kill animals that “intrude” on their crops. For example, potato farmers incensed at deer eating their crops shoot them in the stomach with small-bore rifles so the deer run off and die away from crop.
Think about THAT the next time you eat a potato! And think of all the animals not allowed to live on the cropland you love so much.
How can a progressive be a vegetarian or vegan? Progressives are supposed to be thinkers.
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Posted by: Robert Veasey on Mar 14, 2007 5:35 PM
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Don't try to sell your self-inflicted nonsense to Americans. Americans know better. They like theirs roasted, fried, boiled, baked - whatever.
Better to eat meat than the emaciated look of the liberal progressive self-deprived whiners.
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Posted by: opeluboy on Mar 14, 2007 5:37 PM
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It is also a fact that some people do not do well on purely plant protein. I had a young man working for me who was a vegetarian who became quite ill. Our local homeopath had him start eating some lean meat and he is now able to do his yoga handstands again.
Tonight, parmesan stuffed chicken breasts and fresh green beans from my garden. Mmmmmmm.
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Posted by: jaby on Mar 14, 2007 6:08 PM
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Posted by: zatar on Mar 14, 2007 6:13 PM
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By ZATAR
» RE: YOU ARE WHAT YOU EAT
Posted by: jwc
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Posted by: Aufklaerung_Baboon on Mar 14, 2007 7:30 PM
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Because they taste a bajillion times better and provide MUCH more nutrition than celery and carrots.
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Posted by: solrev on Mar 14, 2007 8:14 PM
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» no they won't
Posted by: AdamG
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Posted by: EasterBunny on Mar 14, 2007 8:40 PM
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Posted by: AdamG on Mar 14, 2007 8:41 PM
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This atricle has pushed the big button. Kathy and the rest of her ilk are the left's equivalent of the NeoCons. I am so full of your self aggrandising bullshit I want to vomit.
Yes, factory farming is bad. Yes, the meat "industry" is bad but tell me one "industry" that isn't bad.
I dare any of you to tell my how I, or any one else, who raises livestock in an appropriate way is negative. My animals (sheep and poultry) are fed organic food, rotationally pastured, their manure is composted, yadda yadda. My animals live better then 95% of the planets human population and I provide that life for them. Fuck yes they owe me something. How many of you vegans out their can say that they grow their own food or help support directly the person who does?
Y'all are more preachy and judgemental then the monks from the Buddhist monastary up the road from my. I am over hearing all your shit. When it really comes down to it, you cannot stop me from living how I want to live.
So which of you wants to be the first to butt heads? And no I don't want to hear from you farmerbob2007, josh welch, mmissinglink, pearl, assholes.
» thank you
Posted by: Phenix
» RE: thank you
Posted by: AdamG
» I'm going to go even farther then that
Posted by: AdamG
» hi adam! from veggiegrrrl!
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» Buddhist Temple
Posted by: Phenix
» whats happenin'
Posted by: AdamG
» Hi Adam!
Posted by: farmerbob2007
» Hey Bob! Let's dance, for old tymes sake.
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: Hey Bob! Let's dance, for old tymes sake.
Posted by: Jarmadi
» RE: Hey Bob! Let's dance, for old tymes sake.
Posted by: AdamG
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Posted by: blitzmesser on Mar 14, 2007 9:09 PM
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(Another joke of our 'creator'?)
Have a look around, and you will have to agree with me. Humans are created in god's image.
So, unless you talk about creation, the question No. 4 encourages nothing but wishful thinking.
The human animal has its priorities wrong.
His ability to think and make tools is applied to the wrong tasks.
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Posted by: logansafi on Mar 14, 2007 9:35 PM
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This is a bunch of baloney. The planetary environmetn is not going to be saved by turning the entire world of humankind ,all, one by one, into vegetarians. In fact, the hot air being blown out asses by vegetarians on this issue, is a hundred times more causative of global warming than them dang cows they are obsessed with. Oh, I'm sorry, I meant chicken nuggets they are obsessed with.
What are we supposed to do now? Shoot all the dogs and cats to save the planet? Or should we put them on vegetarian diets, too? Or how about this? We should all be changing to vegetarian diets, but if we can't resist a chcken nugget or fish stick, then we can eat a can of cat or dog food when we re-addict to meat. We can become petcanno-vegetarians, say? That would be better than those chicken nugget eaters at least. We tried, but had to eat the cat's tuna becausew we're weak.
If we kill our pets to keep them from eating more meat, can we be allowed to at least eat the pets when they're dead, to be ecologically more sound? After all, a dead animal that we have ecologically dispatched, should at least not be made into total waste. We should maybe make a blanket or coat and eat the flesh of these politically incorrect 'companions' of ours. So as they would not go to total waste. We'd be being very progressive then. Efficiency is now the mark of progressives, as we shall have the dog trains running on time, ecologically speaking.
Actually, all vegans should be allowed to kill and eat all meat eaters, dogs, cats, and humans included. To save the planet. After all us reactionary meat eaters are gone, only vegetables and fruits will continue to be at risk, and the vegetable eating animals left can party once again. What balance we will have then, as progressive thought will rule this new age of Eden!
Pass me the carrots, Please. I'm a Progressive now.
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Posted by: deejayvee on Mar 14, 2007 9:47 PM
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Posted by: jwc on Mar 14, 2007 9:53 PM
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there is a contact link in the "about" section of the site.
Send Alternet an email! Here are some possible things to point out since the editors still don't get it:
-The "progressive" label is not limited to Vegetarians!
-Not all vegetarians are CRAZY like the author of this most recent article
-Alternate is starting to sound as radical as the neo-cons
-Some of Alternet's readers ARE ACTUALLY ABLE TO SPOT LOGICAL FALLICES and are tired of finding them in supposed "news" articles
» RE: HOW TO STOP ALTERNET FROM POSTING THIS SHIT
Posted by: Phenix
» I'll Do My Part... C'mon Everybody, Let's Get Progressive- While We're Still Allowed To!
Posted by: grumble-bum
» RE: I'll Do My Part... C'mon Everybody, Let's Get Progressive- While We're Still Allowed To!
Posted by: jwc
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Posted by: wordwoman on Mar 14, 2007 10:37 PM
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Posted by: yehadut on Mar 14, 2007 11:18 PM
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Posted by: Eat Politicians on Mar 15, 2007 1:05 AM
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Posted by: spencerh on Mar 15, 2007 1:33 AM
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- Turkey
- Beef
- Chicken
- Pork
- Vegetable
One spot for vegetable. Just one. Of course it reflects what sells, but it seems like this is something that hurts any sort of move to vegetarianism. This is something I truly wish would change. I live in NYC and you *still* have to go out of your way to find good vegetarian places.
Another helpful thing? Mock meat. I've taken meat eaters out to places that serve this, and they were usually amazed (I know I was after I first became a vegetarian), so the taste thing is solvable.
» RE: Lack of choices: my beef
Posted by: Jarmadi
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Posted by: dimmuborgirly on Mar 15, 2007 2:13 AM
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» RE: Calm down, we all know she's not the boss of you
Posted by: Jarmadi
» RE: Calm down, we all know she's not the boss of you
Posted by: deejayvee
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Posted by: moflard on Mar 15, 2007 4:20 AM
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» RE: True Progressive
Posted by: Mr. Heathen
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Posted by: Blade on Mar 15, 2007 6:09 AM
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» RE: Just shot a wild rabbit...
Posted by: sonyabowman
» RE: Just shot a wild rabbit...
Posted by: Blade
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Posted by: TWilliams on Mar 15, 2007 8:36 AM
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» Re: Humans are Carnivores!
Posted by: ericao
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Posted by: driftwolf on Mar 15, 2007 8:53 AM
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One wonders if the author has heard of organic micro-farming? I know exactly where the beef, pork and chicken I eat has been, from calf or chick to meat on my plate. I know the farmers raising these animals. I know what these animals are eating. They graze. They are fed hay from neighboring fields. They aren't being fed reprocessed brains from the abattoirs. Also, the raising goes on year-round. Locally. Within 100km of my home, which reduces the overall footprint of my meal.
Meanwhile, the vegetables that I'm being asked to eat exclusively are mostly grown on factory farms, using tremendous quantities of pesticides and farming techniques that only work because of continued application of artificial fertilizer. To call it raping the land is a misnomer. When these factory farms are done, nothing will grow on that land unless you add more fertilizer. I can't get my veg locally, because we have something called "winter" here that creates these things called "growing seasons". So I have to get imported vegetables. Imported from places like Mexico, California and the far East. Imported at great cost in petrol, and requiring the building of ever more roads, parking lots, and the rest of the infrastructure of a false economy. Yes, I unfortunately still use some of these vegetables, because I have to to stay healthy. Yes, I do shop at my local organic farm when they have crops growing, and I do buy my vegetables grown within 100km when possible. But I can't do that year round. Perhaps the author hadn't thought of that?
So, what was that again about meat being always bad, and vegetables being always good? Maybe the author should get off her high horse and start to look at the realities of farming, and at the real costs of getting fresh vegetables year round into places that can't grow them locally. Meanwhile, I'm off to breakfast.
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Posted by: sonyabowman on Mar 15, 2007 9:06 AM
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much love to all!
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Posted by: anniedine on Mar 15, 2007 9:06 AM
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And what they (and any of the rest of the reading population) can see is a range of their readers behaving in the most ugly, disgusting, bizarre ways possible because someone called them on their hypocrisy in eating meat.
It's no better here right now than if Alternet had paid a bunch of freepers to come over here and trash the author. The hysteria is pathetic and disturbing – just scan the answers to this article.
The author has facts to back up what she's saying and the exact same things have been said by all kinds of people for many, many years. That doesn't stop these creepy, freaky, hateful commenters from making up all kinds of nonsense in reply or simply just being obnoxious and arrogant.
I haven't seen this kind of childish, whiny, nasty reaction to vegetarian arguments since I was personally attacked by the angry frat boys as I sat at an information table in college 25 years ago. They spit on us, they yelled, they tried to physically intimidate us – they were hateful, just as the commenters here have been.
It's no wonder the world is going to hell – just look at what the supposed "left" is capable of saying and doing when challenged to think about their personal choices. It's disgusting.
» RE: THE LIBERALS ON ALTERNET ARE PROFOUNDLY UGLY
Posted by: Jarmadi
» Huh? Most of them were FUNNY, not hateful
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» Scroll up
Posted by: ericao
» RE: THE LIBERALS ON ALTERNET ARE PROFOUNDLY UGLY
Posted by: sysiphus1963
» THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I WANTED TO SAY!
Posted by: TwinsFanatic
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Posted by: Leischa on Mar 15, 2007 10:27 AM
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Eh?
" If everyone went veggie, all the farm animals would die out because there'd be no one to look after them, and there'd be no cute lambs in spring."
So if we love animals, we should keep eating them.
What's your dumbest excuse ever?
» RE: The dumbest argument for not going vegetarian ever
Posted by: AdamG
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Posted by: gretavo on Mar 15, 2007 10:50 AM
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» RE: You call yourself a progressive and...
Posted by: jwc
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Posted by: CollD on Mar 15, 2007 11:59 AM
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I just don't agree. Some people do very well on vegetarian diets. I was incredibly sick and only lasted 3 years. I was also seeing a nutritionist at the time so it's not for lack of trying. Vegetarian diets are great for some people, but i hate how people try to make it out like its the 'natural' diet for us. Yes, most people eat too much meat. But that doesn't mean humans are herbivores. Our appendix is useless for a reason one would think. As for being vegan, all of my vegan friends had to consume bottles full of vitamins and of course, all modern food is enhanced with vitamins and nutrients. B12 is put into a lot of vegetarian food. This alone shows to me that, without the benefit of our society, humans would have a lot of trouble getting the nutrients they need from an all plant diet. But of course, then one can get into the idea that most of our plant foods are missing the nutrients they once had from big agriculture. I am happy eating meat a couple of times a week...I buy local whenever possible. What we need is to eat less meat, and by it local. Not tell people they aren't progressive if they eat meat. And come on, linking to a person who claims humans are supposed to be vegetarians? Thats not what i learned in mammalogy and evolution.
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Posted by: CyberBrook on Mar 15, 2007 1:13 PM
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Posted by: MortontheMousse on Mar 15, 2007 2:10 PM
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Fallacy # 1) A vegetarian diet is healthier than an omnivorous diet
Most Americans should lower intake of saturated fat and cholesterol, granted. However, human nutrition is far more complex than this author would lead us to believe. Meat may contain some elements that are deleterious when consumed in excess, but meat also contains many essential nutrients that the author does not discuss. Specifically, the highly bio available vitamins, minerals, and phytonutrients found in meat cannot be easily replicated in a vegetarian diet. Deficiencies can lead to serious long term health consequences including arthritis, osteoporosis, and chronic fatigue.
The athlete example is a straw man - athletes often live shorter lives and suffer from more long term health consequences than moderately fit individuals. More importantly, every athlete on this list is a man! Men are more adaptable to a vegetarian diet, because we do not lose large amounts of iron every month due to menstruation. Replacing heme iron (iron found only in animal products) is difficult in a vegetarian diet and impossible in a vegan diet. Consequently, many vegetarian women suffer from anemia.
The solution? Moderation! Eat enough meat to get your essential nutrients, but keep your meat intake moderate so that you don't suffer from the negative health consequences of overconsumption.
Fallacy # 2) Organic meat does not provide an ethical alternative to factory farming
Some organic ranches practice inhumane and unsustainable animal rearing. However, it is wrong to apply this generalization to all organic ranches. I have personally toured several sustainable ranches in my area. These ranchers are highly concerned about animal welfare, humane slaughter, and environmental sustainability. It is insulting to dismiss these hard working ranchers en masse by linking a poorly researched and highly biased article from goveg.com.
The solution? Learn as much about the sources for your food as possible. Ask questions, and find producers who you can trust.
Fallacy # 3) Humans are not omnivorous
The article linked is pure pseudo-science. If we examine the jaw structure, intestinal structure, placement of the eyes, composition of intestinal bacteria, and the activities of apes in nature it is clear that we are neither herbivores nor carnivores. Any respectable biologist or anatomist will tell you without hesitation that humans are omnivores.
Fallacy # 4) Vegetarianism is intrinsically more eco-friendly than omnivorism
Many vegetarians feel that they are "doing enough" simply by being vegetarian. Therefore, they may be more careless with their food choices and purchase produce and dairy products that are farmed unsustainably. Conscientious Omnivores are aware of every food purchase we make, whether meat, dairy, egg, nut, grain, legume, fruit or vegetable. I have met few vegetarians who share my passion for and awareness of food sourcing.
Fallacy # 5) Vegetarianism is good for animal welfare
Most species of animals we eat have been bred to domesticity. Simply put, they cannot survive in the wild. If this country went vegetarian, all of these species would become extinct. There is no natural habitat to absorb them, and there would be no financial incentive to rear them. Sustainable, humane ranching has the potential to do more good for animal welfare than vegetarianism. The Heritage Foods Society has taken several animals off of the
endangered species list by encouraging ranchers to raise heirloom breeds. Their motto? "You have to eat the animal to save the animal."
Conclusion: this is a highly flawed piece that relies on biased, poorly researched evidence.
MtM
» re #5
Posted by: Jarmadi
» RE: re #5
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: esponding to Several Inaccuracies in This Piece
Posted by: jwc
» Tougher for horses
Posted by: Jarmadi
» RE: Tougher for horses
Posted by: MortontheMousse
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Posted by: eshipley on Mar 15, 2007 2:38 PM
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like to share why I became a veg back in 1970. I had just read Diet for a
small planet and saw that the amount of land used for animal feed vs food
for humans did not make sense. So, in a short amount of time, my family of 5
kids and husband changed their diet although to this day I am the only
vegetarian in the family. I later married a German person who was addicted to sausage and all the
other meats prevelent in that culture. So, when I found an article in
Organic gardening about tempeh and then found a kit on how to make it, I
gave it to him for a birthday gift and soon he was making it for the two of
us and later, we mortgaged everything we had to built a food processing
building producing Betsy's tempeh for the mid Mich. and Ohio area. Since
then, we have retired although we still make tempeh for ourselves and
produced a dvd on how to make tempeh at home. Thought you might find this interesting. Betsy Shipley
http://www.betsys-tempeh.com
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Posted by: lovecritters on Mar 15, 2007 3:58 PM
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Posted by: nosmokes on Mar 15, 2007 4:26 PM
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am i wrong? i can't believe that by supporting family farmers raising organic produce and stock in humane conditions that i'm perpetuating the problem and not contributing to the solution. i'm far more part of the solution than someone who is 100% vegetarian but is eating conventional veg or GMO veg that has been soaked w/ pesticides and trucked halfway across the country or shipped ffrom brazil to NY.
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Posted by: protect-animals on Mar 15, 2007 4:44 PM
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Thank you for writing this very informative article on why politically progressive people should seriously consider adopting a vegetarian diet. I have been a vegan for a good while and I won't go back to a cruelty-based diet.
People who are trying to change their diet often find themselves bogged down by habit, including the habits of those around them. Seeking community can be a good solution. If there isn't an active local vegan or vegetarian community available, an online community can be very helpful. The links you included in your article looked very good. For people who are Christians, I particularly recommend the Christian Vegetarian Association (ChristianVeg.com).
Thanks again.
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Posted by: medstudgeek on Mar 15, 2007 6:00 PM
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Fat also causes heart disease in excess, of course.
The health benefits are well-proven (though make sure to take vitamin B12 supplements). But ultimately it's very hard for people to give up that sizzling steak, just like it's hard for them to take up exercise or do many other healthy things.
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Posted by: trebsc on Mar 16, 2007 5:44 AM
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First, there are many doctors who do not think a vegetarian diet is a good idea and many books like the Eat Right for Your Blood Type that don't think so either. There is also no guarantee that being a vegetarian keeps you at an ideal body weight. I was a fat vegetarian for fifteen years and have a number of overweight vegetarian friends as well.
Second, animals are a valuable part of farming. As a small scale, organic farmer, I'd be lost without my animals. I have a mule for some labor & fertilizer. My chickens eat leftover scraps and imperfect vegetables and fruits that fussy farmers market shoppers won't buy because they are blemished. They produce valuable eggs and manure for the garden. My sheep also produce valuable wool and manure. They keep weeds reduced and reduce bush hogging (huge mowers that often kill frogs, snakes, turtles that can't get out of the way.) And yes, when the day comes, and I take the extra ram lambs and extra poor quality breeding females to slaughter, I cry. They do have names and personalities and I am extremely mindful of the gift of life they give us. It is a beautiful, entertwined cycle that I am honored to be a part of. I could grow the same vegetables and fruits with chemical fertilizers, herbicides and pesticides, and the soil would be dead and give us the lifeless, tasteless items sold in commercial markets we have now. There are many studies that suggest that vegetables in the store today are much less nutritious than 30-50 years ago! My soil is so rich from all the compost, manure, and wonderful manure loving insects (earthworms, dung beetles, etc) that I no longer till each spring. I simply add another layer of compost and deep mulch and plant. This method gives rise to other problems (like a proliferation of slugs) but thats not the point. My point is that this life works for me. There is very little waste, Im in better physical shape (allthough still fat :) than ever, never sick, depressed or bored. I have much joy, If I had to live in the city with the hustle, traffic, smog, noise, hypermarkets, lights, I'd kill myself. All that concrete and dead earth? I say, how can you be a progressive and live like that, or worse in the suburban sprawl? There are so many ways to reduce our footprint on the earth- living more simply, not having so many kids, not consuming so much, eating locally and in season, not supportung factory farms and fast food, pick the ones that are right for you.
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Mar 16, 2007 7:01 AM
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» RE: I'm vegan. I've been vegetarian now for 30 years...
Posted by: lostvirtue
» RE: I'm vegan. I've been vegetarian now for 30 years... & you're childless.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
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Posted by: dwilliamsamh on Mar 16, 2007 3:16 PM
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Simply put, call me cruel, but I am not willing to sacrifice enjoying my food for the rest of my life. Simple as that. And yeah I have had and enjoyed vegetarian dishes. Some are good some suck but they ALL are missing an essential ingredient to my dining pleasure.
I don't like cruelty to animals and in large regard, I put my money where my mouth is in that regard, but on this I am selfish. Period.
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Posted by: TwinsFanatic on Mar 14, 2007 12:33 AM
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Slaughterhouses are probably the most violent places on the planet. Animals are routinely sent kicking and screaming through the skinning and dismemberment process, every one bleeding and dying exactly like they would if they were human beings.
Farms today treat animals like so many boxes in a warehouse, chopping off beaks and tails and genitals with no painkillers at all, inflicting third degree burns (branding), ripping out teeth, and hunks of flesh. Animals transported to slaughter routinely die from the heat or the cold, or freeze to the sides of the transport trucks or to the bottom in their own excrement. Dairy cows and egg laying hens endure the same living nightmare as their brethren who are raised for their flesh, except that their time on the "farm" is longer. They are still shipped to the slaughterhouse and killed, at a fraction of their natural life span.
There is simply no excuse for anyone who considers herself or himself to be an ethical human being, let alone an "animal lover," to be supporting these kinds of practices, all of which are routine and universal throughout the industries which turn animals into eggs and meat and dairy products.
I agree with what Kathy says: If I can't watch it happening, I want no part of it. I enjoy watching fields tilled and love picking apples and tomatoes and carrots and other vegetarian products. If slaughterhouses had glass walls, as Paul McCartney is so fond of saying, we would all be vegetarians.
Every time I sit down to eat, I make a decision about who I am in the world: Do I want to add to the level of violence, misery, and bloodshed in the world? Or, do I want to make a compassionate and merciful choice? There is so much violence in the world, from war torn regions of Africa and Europe, to our own inner cities. Most of this violence is difficult to understand, let alone influence.
Vegetarianism is one area where each and every one of us can make a difference, every time we sit down to eat. I find it empowering that I can make an option for peace and compassion every time I eat, simply by not encouraging violence and misery against animals.
» Agreed: going vegetarian is the least we can do
Posted by: A.T.
» Choose non-violence, go meat-free
Posted by: ECtek
» What shall I feed my 3 cats? ----eom
Posted by: Bev
» RE: What shall I feed my 3 cats? Cat Food
Posted by: AngryWhiteFemale
» RE: What shall I feed my 3 cats? VEG PET OWNER PLEASE REPLY
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: What shall I feed my 3 cats? VEG PET OWNER PLEASE REPLY
Posted by: faeriefolk
» RE: What shall I feed my 3 cats? VEG PET OWNER PLEASE REPLY
Posted by: leavemlaughing
» RE: What shall I feed my 3 cats? VEG PET OWNER PLEASE REPLY
Posted by: hartsmart
» RE: What shall I feed my 3 cats? VEG PET OWNER PLEASE REPLY
Posted by: hschwing
» Mange Gateaux
Posted by: gellero
» RE: What shall I feed my 3 cats? ----eom
Posted by: blakkat31
» RE: What shall I feed my 3 cats? ----eom **Thanks for thoughtful comments**
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: What shall I feed my 3 cats? ----eom **Thanks for thoughtful comments**
Posted by: blakkat31
» RE: VEGETARIANISM is the progressive movement
Posted by: lauraf
» VEGETARIANISM is the progressive movement..... to YOU, that is.
Posted by: Sobanos
» RE: VEGETARIANISM is the progressive movement . . .
Posted by: lauraf
» RE: VEGETARIANISM is the progressive movement . . .
Posted by: Sobanos
» RE: VEGETARIANISM is the progressive movement . . .
Posted by: sterlingdave54
» RE: VEGETARIANISM is the progressive movement
Posted by: Bibs
» Sequester Carbon, Enjoy Good Health and Save the Planet -- EAT CLAMS.
Posted by: alaskagrrl
» RE: Sequester Carbon, Enjoy Good Health and Save the Planet -- EAT CLAMS.
Posted by: zoomorph
» Where do I collect my $25 Million ?
Posted by: alaskagrrl
» Cavemen ate meat because they didn't know better...
Posted by: Dr.Eagleston
» Better living through chemistry
Posted by: AdamG
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Posted by: cordas on Mar 14, 2007 12:45 AM
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Lets do untold damage to the landscape (and enviroment) by turning hundreds of thousands of square miles into unending arable plains and destroy all the habitat that grazing meadows create and all the wildlife that lives there.
Yes lets.
Or maybe we should accept nature and the fact that we are omnivores. Personally as a meat eater and enviromentalist I get really narked by the short sightedness and blinkered approach taken by the extremist vegi lobby.
I will quite happily agree that the intensive farming of meat that is carried out on a "corperate scale" is wrong in so many different ways, and that the availability and over eating of such meat isn't good for either us or the enviroment, but you have to be absolutly barking if you think abolishing meat from the diet and everyone going vegi will be any better....
If that happens then big business will just move even more into the arable market and will continue its practises and continue to destroy the enviroment, only with arable practices it is far more damaging than maintaining prarie and meadows for livestock.
So put away your meat-eater hating banners and have a sensible debate about what we should do to protect our food and enviroment and make sure that the food we feed to ourselves and our children is the best it can be, wether its organic beef or a nut casserole.
» Reduce cruelty. Reduce exploitation. Reduce harming sentients. Build a kinder society.
Posted by: aouie01
» **TO AOUIE and OTHER VEGS--PRACTICAL ADVICE NEEDED, please--**
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: **TO AOUIE and OTHER VEGS--PRACTICAL ADVICE NEEDED, please--**
Posted by: hschwing
» RE: **TO AOUIE and OTHER VEGS--PRACTICAL ADVICE NEEDED, please--**
Posted by: aouie01
» RE: **TO AOUIE and OTHER VEGS--PRACTICAL ADVICE NEEDED, please--**THANK YOU!!
Posted by: maribelle
» Why not take responsibility and go meat free?
Posted by: A.T.
» RE: Why not take responsibility and go meat free?
Posted by: Mrs. Robinson
» RE: Why not take responsibility and go meat free?
Posted by: Blade
» It does sound like you have baggage
Posted by: ECtek
» RE: It does sound like you have baggage
Posted by: Mrs. Robinson
» RE: It does sound like you have baggage
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: It does sound like you have baggage
Posted by: mjabele
» Give me a veggie burder instead of the decomposing corpse of a tortured bird any day
Posted by: ECtek
» RE: Yup, lets all go vegi.
Posted by: EddB
» Eating meat is what's extreme! For life, go vegan!
Posted by: mwiese
» RE: ating meat is what's extreme! For life, go vegan!
Posted by: ECtek
» RE: Couldn't agree more
Posted by: Techubus
» Ridiculous argument
Posted by: Tombo
» RE: Except you completely failed to deconstruct my argument
Posted by: Techubus
» RE: xcept you completely failed to deconstruct my argument
Posted by: plantsareneat
» RE: xcept you completely failed to deconstruct my argument
Posted by: Techubus
» wow
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: idiculous argument
Posted by: profoflitandtrout
» RE: Couldn't agree more **There's nothing militant about persuasion**
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: Couldn't agree more **There's nothing militant about persuasion**
Posted by: Techubus
» RE: Vegetatianism is easy and positive
Posted by: lauraf
» RE: Yup, lets all go vegi.
Posted by: activecitizen2007
» RE: Have you seen how slaughterhouse workers are treated?
Posted by: lauraf
» RE: Have you seen how agricultural workers are treated?
Posted by: Techubus
» RE: Yup, lets all go vegi.
Posted by: Sobanos
» RE: habitat that grazing meadows create?
Posted by: existen
» If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging
Posted by: AdamG
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Mar 14, 2007 12:52 AM
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The moral argument also applies to agriculture - when you clear a field for farmland, you destroy wildlife habitat. There's always a cost, and eating plants doesn't change that basic fact. You have to keep the deer from eating your crops, after all - think about it.
I'll take locally raised chickens and eggs over soy products flown in from the Brazilian Amazon - why not? I'd actually prefer a 95% vegetarian diet on basic health grounds, and I'll eat cheese and eggs - but how many people who eat meat have ever slaughtered an animal? Cut the head off a chicken? Gutted a cow or other large mammal? It should be a required experience for anyone who eats meat.
Of course, the levels of digusting foulness involved in the factory farming of meat is unprecedented. Google: "Rolling Stones" "Boss Hog" for the gory details - and yet people eat that nasty corn-fed hog flesh with no questions asked. Incredible.
55% of corn production goes right into the factory farm system - and I for one think that producing ethanol from that corn is a far better use than feeding it to hogs.
Thus, I'll agree with the author, with a caveat - eat vegetarian, but make sure it's locally produced - and if you do have to kill a chicken for food, at least make sure you do a good job of cooking it. Show a little respect, in other words - and don't eat that factory-farmed hormone-pumped nightmare flesh of death.
» Values vary and hence what is most important varies.
Posted by: aouie01
» Eating animals shows no respect for them
Posted by: mwiese
» Then vegetarianism is about values and not saving the environment
Posted by: anthroman
» RE: Sustainable, local food production is most important
Posted by: kelt65
» Going veg ALSO helps these other things
Posted by: yehadut
» Or a vegan who flies
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: milox on Mar 14, 2007 1:08 AM
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Why? Because people eat meat by choice and like it...hell the Dali Lama does and using global warming and every other arguements isn't going to cut it. Frankly I don't see a change in omnivores culture just like I don't see fundamentalist Christians getting everyone to pray and not have sex. There's a disconnect in how people are wired. It's just not going to happen.
That said, you'll have many more allies in the environmental fight if you suggest substainable agriculture and humane/non-factory live stock breeding/production rather then being a vegetarian.
If you choose not to eat meat, I applaud you. I however as a progressive, who takes public transpo, rarely uses a car and walks a lot WILL NOT BE GIVING UP MEAT.
» Culturally sanctioned wrongs can be given up for good principles, by individuals and societies.
Posted by: aouie01
» Eating meat is a choice, but it is a BAD one
Posted by: A.T.
» RE: ating meat is a choice, but it is a BAD one
Posted by: tweedster
» Going vegan is about equal consideration and respect for All beings
Posted by: mwiese
» RE: There is no such thing as humane animal production
Posted by: lauraf
» Don't think you don't kill, either
Posted by: Beck
» RE: It's Cultural - Gramsci
Posted by: si.se.puede
» RE: It's Cultural - Gramsci
Posted by: yehadut
» RE: It's Cultural - Gramsci - Dalai Lama does NOT eat meat!!
Posted by: anurak
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Posted by: doinaheckuvajob on Mar 14, 2007 1:17 AM
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Who is it healthier for? People with certain physical ailments, people of certain builds and physical systems, people with gastrointestinal ailments of certain types, and some people who work in labor intensive situations and need lots of protein.
You don't have to believe that of course, you can continue to think you know better what's right for someone else-- that's sure a persuasive technique.
It's simply super arrogant to assume, because you read a few books on how bad meat is, that you know best for everybody.
You don't.
» Going veg is about more than health, it's about the environment and opposing cruelty
Posted by: ramsey
» Not agreeing with some reasonings shouldn't result in ignoring the other reasons.
Posted by: aouie01
» Vegetarianism IS the healthiest diet
Posted by: TwinsFanatic
» RE: Vegetarianism is NOT the healthiest diet for everyone, we are NOT all clones of one another!
Posted by: Setnakt
» Personally, cutting out meat helped improve my health
Posted by: ECtek
» The real reasons why people eat animals
Posted by: mwiese
» RE: The real reasons why people eat animals
Posted by: CriminallySane
» RE: Nobody can claim to know best what diet others should have.
Posted by: lovethebomb
» RE: Nobody can claim to know best what diet others should have.
Posted by: icmfal
» RE: Nobody can claim to know best what diet others should have.
Posted by: lostvirtue
» RE: Vegetarianism is healthy for everyone!
Posted by: lauraf
» RE: Vegetarianism is healthy for everyone!...unless
Posted by: kiel
» RE: please do not assume you know all and alienate good people
Posted by: chris555
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Posted by: TwinsFanatic on Mar 14, 2007 1:20 AM
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This article has just been posted, and already there are "progressives" claiming that it goes to far, doesn't go far enough, and then the final one: I'm going to eat meat and call myself a progressive, and there's nothing you can do about it!
This just proves that progressives can be just as selfish and just as unreasonable as anyone else, and that some progressives also don't want to move outside of their comfort zones.
It's a simple fact, really, made eloquently by this author, that eating meat is bad for the environment, bad for your health, and supports cruelty. To deny it and fight to keep eating meat is similar to the right wingers who deny global warming and continue to drive their SUVs.
» Or it's similar to not eating meat, but flying, or. . . .
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: Temporary on Mar 14, 2007 1:43 AM
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