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Environment

You Call Yourself a Progressive -- But You Still Eat Meat?

By Kathy Freston, AlterNet. Posted March 14, 2007.


Eating a plant-based diet is an easy, cheap way to end animal cruelty and clean up the environment. Why, then, are so many progressives still clinging to their chicken nuggets?
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The report released this week by the world's leading climate scientists made no bones about it: Global warming is happening in a big way and it is very likely manmade. The U.N. report that came out soon after made a critical point: "The livestock sector emerges as one of the top two or three most significant contributors to the most serious environmental problems, at every scale from local to global." And yet, so many environmentalists continue to eat meat. Why?

Being part of the solution can be a whole lot simpler -- and cheaper -- than going out and buying a new hybrid. We can make a huge difference in the environment simply by eating a plant-based diet instead of an animal-based one. Factory farming pollutes our air and water, reduces the rainforests, and goes a long way to create global warming. Yet for some environmentalists, the idea of giving up those chicken nuggets is still hard to swallow.

So, I thought I might discuss a few of the key concerns that my meat-eating friends offer in defense of their continued meat consumption. Here we go:

Some were worried about thriving, physically, on a vegetarian diet.

Now this just does not make sense. Half of all Americans die of heart disease or cancer and two-thirds of us are overweight. The American Dietetic Association says that vegetarians have "lower rates of death from ischemic heart disease; ... lower blood cholesterol levels, lower blood pressure, and lower rates of hypertension, type 2 diabetes, and prostate and colon cancer." Vegetarians, on average, are about one-third as likely to be overweight as meat eaters.

And I've just learned from the brilliant Dr. Andrew Weil that there is something called arachidonic acid, or AA, in animal flesh that causes inflammation. AA is a pro-inflammatory fatty acid. He explains that "heart disease and Alzheimer's -- among many other diseases -- begin as inflammatory processes. The same hormonal imbalance that increases inflammation increases cell proliferation and the risk of malignant transformation." They are finding out that inflammation is key in so many of the diseases that plague us. So when you eat meat, you ingest AA, which causes inflammation, which fires up the disease process. It doesn't matter if the chicken is free range or the beef is grass-fed because the fatty acid is natural and inherent in the meat.

As for having strength and energy on a vegetarian diet, some of the world's top athletes are vegetarian. A few examples: Carl Lewis (perhaps the greatest Olympian of all time), Robert Parish (one of the "50 Greatest Players in NBA History"), Desmond Howard (Heisman Trophy winner and Super Bowl MVP), Bill Pearl (professional bodybuilder and four-time Mr. Universe), Jack La Lanne (Mr. Fitness himself) and Chris Evert (tennis champion). Vegetarian athletes have the advantage of getting all the plant protein, complex carbohydrates and fiber they need without all the artery-clogging cholesterol and saturated animal fats found in meat that would slow them down. In fact, Carl Lewis says that "my best year of track competition was the first year I ate a vegan diet."

One person pointed out that the rain forest is being cut down to grow soy, not meat.

Actually, much of the rain forest is being chopped down for grazing, but also yes, the rain forest is being chopped down to grow soy -- but not for human consumption. Americans and Europeans can't raise all the feed domestically that is needed to sustain their meat addictions, so agribusiness has started cutting down the rain forest. Ask Greenpeace or any other environmental group, and they'll tell you that the overwhelming majority of soy (or corn or wheat, for that matter) is used to feed animals in factory farms. In fact, Greenpeace recently unveiled a massive banner over an Amazon soy field that read, "KFC-Amazon Criminal," to accentuate the point that large chicken and other meat companies like KFC are responsible for the destruction of the Amazon. It takes many pounds of soy or other plant foods to produce just one pound of animal flesh -- so if you're worried about the rain forests being chopped down for grazing or to grow soy, your best move is to stop eating chickens, pigs and other animals. If more people went vegetarian, we would need far less land to feed people, and we wouldn't have to destroy the few natural places that this world has left.

Some wondered about humane, organic or kosher meat.

Sadly, most of the meat, egg and dairy companies that pretend to be eco- or animal-friendly, with packages covered in pictures of pretty red barnyards, are basically the same massive corporately owned factory farms but with a newly hired advertising consultant. In fact, labels like "Swine Welfare" and "UEP Certified" are simply the industry labels that attempt to hide the horrible abuse involved in these products' production. And even "organic" farms are industrializing in ways that shock the journalists who bother to investigate. Sadly, "kosher" means nothing when it comes to how animals are treated on farms, and the largest kosher slaughterhouse in North America was caught horribly abusing animals -- ripping the tracheas out of live cows' throats and worse -- and defending the abuse as kosher.


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No doubt about it, vegetarianism is the way to go for progressives.
Posted by: TwinsFanatic on Mar 14, 2007 12:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have been a progressive activists for more than 20 years, and I've been a vegetarian for more than 20 years. Tolstoy argued that "vegetarianism is the taproot of humanitarianism," because if we can't be kind in the little things, who are we to tell others what to do in the bigger things?

Slaughterhouses are probably the most violent places on the planet. Animals are routinely sent kicking and screaming through the skinning and dismemberment process, every one bleeding and dying exactly like they would if they were human beings.

Farms today treat animals like so many boxes in a warehouse, chopping off beaks and tails and genitals with no painkillers at all, inflicting third degree burns (branding), ripping out teeth, and hunks of flesh. Animals transported to slaughter routinely die from the heat or the cold, or freeze to the sides of the transport trucks or to the bottom in their own excrement. Dairy cows and egg laying hens endure the same living nightmare as their brethren who are raised for their flesh, except that their time on the "farm" is longer. They are still shipped to the slaughterhouse and killed, at a fraction of their natural life span.

There is simply no excuse for anyone who considers herself or himself to be an ethical human being, let alone an "animal lover," to be supporting these kinds of practices, all of which are routine and universal throughout the industries which turn animals into eggs and meat and dairy products.

I agree with what Kathy says: If I can't watch it happening, I want no part of it. I enjoy watching fields tilled and love picking apples and tomatoes and carrots and other vegetarian products. If slaughterhouses had glass walls, as Paul McCartney is so fond of saying, we would all be vegetarians.

Every time I sit down to eat, I make a decision about who I am in the world: Do I want to add to the level of violence, misery, and bloodshed in the world? Or, do I want to make a compassionate and merciful choice? There is so much violence in the world, from war torn regions of Africa and Europe, to our own inner cities. Most of this violence is difficult to understand, let alone influence.

Vegetarianism is one area where each and every one of us can make a difference, every time we sit down to eat. I find it empowering that I can make an option for peace and compassion every time I eat, simply by not encouraging violence and misery against animals.

» RE: What shall I feed my 3 cats? Cat Food Posted by: AngryWhiteFemale
» Mange Gateaux Posted by: gellero
Yup, lets all go vegi.
Posted by: cordas on Mar 14, 2007 12:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lets wipe out (or reduce the numbers of species to zoo levels of bread and supported in captivity) all the animals we raise for food.

Lets do untold damage to the landscape (and enviroment) by turning hundreds of thousands of square miles into unending arable plains and destroy all the habitat that grazing meadows create and all the wildlife that lives there.

Yes lets.

Or maybe we should accept nature and the fact that we are omnivores. Personally as a meat eater and enviromentalist I get really narked by the short sightedness and blinkered approach taken by the extremist vegi lobby.

I will quite happily agree that the intensive farming of meat that is carried out on a "corperate scale" is wrong in so many different ways, and that the availability and over eating of such meat isn't good for either us or the enviroment, but you have to be absolutly barking if you think abolishing meat from the diet and everyone going vegi will be any better....

If that happens then big business will just move even more into the arable market and will continue its practises and continue to destroy the enviroment, only with arable practices it is far more damaging than maintaining prarie and meadows for livestock.

So put away your meat-eater hating banners and have a sensible debate about what we should do to protect our food and enviroment and make sure that the food we feed to ourselves and our children is the best it can be, wether its organic beef or a nut casserole.

» RE: Couldn't agree more Posted by: Techubus
» Ridiculous argument Posted by: Tombo
» wow Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: idiculous argument Posted by: profoflitandtrout
» RE: Yup, lets all go vegi. Posted by: activecitizen2007
» RE: Yup, lets all go vegi. Posted by: Sobanos
Sustainable, local food production is most important
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Mar 14, 2007 12:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's see - a vegetarian who eats bananas from Ecuador, strawberries from Mexico, and sips on soy lattes while proclaiming their moral superiority - is missing the picture. What really matters is getting your food locally, without shipping it halfway around the world.

The moral argument also applies to agriculture - when you clear a field for farmland, you destroy wildlife habitat. There's always a cost, and eating plants doesn't change that basic fact. You have to keep the deer from eating your crops, after all - think about it.

I'll take locally raised chickens and eggs over soy products flown in from the Brazilian Amazon - why not? I'd actually prefer a 95% vegetarian diet on basic health grounds, and I'll eat cheese and eggs - but how many people who eat meat have ever slaughtered an animal? Cut the head off a chicken? Gutted a cow or other large mammal? It should be a required experience for anyone who eats meat.

Of course, the levels of digusting foulness involved in the factory farming of meat is unprecedented. Google: "Rolling Stones" "Boss Hog" for the gory details - and yet people eat that nasty corn-fed hog flesh with no questions asked. Incredible.

55% of corn production goes right into the factory farm system - and I for one think that producing ethanol from that corn is a far better use than feeding it to hogs.

Thus, I'll agree with the author, with a caveat - eat vegetarian, but make sure it's locally produced - and if you do have to kill a chicken for food, at least make sure you do a good job of cooking it. Show a little respect, in other words - and don't eat that factory-farmed hormone-pumped nightmare flesh of death.

» Or a vegan who flies Posted by: Beck
It's Cultural - Gramsci
Posted by: milox on Mar 14, 2007 1:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To paraphrase Antonio Gramsci, all the reasons and logic of change might be apparent, badly needed and plainly obvious and yet it's culture that prevents change unless is the change is incorporated culturally within the movement, which I don't see happening with meat, ever.

Why? Because people eat meat by choice and like it...hell the Dali Lama does and using global warming and every other arguements isn't going to cut it. Frankly I don't see a change in omnivores culture just like I don't see fundamentalist Christians getting everyone to pray and not have sex. There's a disconnect in how people are wired. It's just not going to happen.

That said, you'll have many more allies in the environmental fight if you suggest substainable agriculture and humane/non-factory live stock breeding/production rather then being a vegetarian.

If you choose not to eat meat, I applaud you. I however as a progressive, who takes public transpo, rarely uses a car and walks a lot WILL NOT BE GIVING UP MEAT.

» RE: It's Cultural - Gramsci Posted by: si.se.puede
» RE: It's Cultural - Gramsci Posted by: yehadut
Nobody can claim to know best what diet others should have.
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob on Mar 14, 2007 1:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Guess what, lots of people eat meat because it's healthier for them. Not healthier than a vegetarian diet in general, but specifically healthier for them.

Who is it healthier for? People with certain physical ailments, people of certain builds and physical systems, people with gastrointestinal ailments of certain types, and some people who work in labor intensive situations and need lots of protein.

You don't have to believe that of course, you can continue to think you know better what's right for someone else-- that's sure a persuasive technique.

It's simply super arrogant to assume, because you read a few books on how bad meat is, that you know best for everybody.

You don't.

» Vegetarianism IS the healthiest diet Posted by: TwinsFanatic
E Magazine (the environmental magazine) had a similar title
Posted by: TwinsFanatic on Mar 14, 2007 1:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A few years ago, they ran a cover story, "So you're an environmentalist, and you still eat meat?" They hammered home the point that eating meat is a waste and creates massive amounts of pollution. Check out www.GoVeg.com, the environmental section, for the full argument.

This article has just been posted, and already there are "progressives" claiming that it goes to far, doesn't go far enough, and then the final one: I'm going to eat meat and call myself a progressive, and there's nothing you can do about it!

This just proves that progressives can be just as selfish and just as unreasonable as anyone else, and that some progressives also don't want to move outside of their comfort zones.

It's a simple fact, really, made eloquently by this author, that eating meat is bad for the environment, bad for your health, and supports cruelty. To deny it and fight to keep eating meat is similar to the right wingers who deny global warming and continue to drive their SUVs.

Your INSANE!!!
Posted by: Temporary on Mar 14, 2007 1:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Humans NEED MEAT! We need Proteind, D-vitamin, and FISH! Especially children need FISH! You people have totally LOST IT!!!

in ten years, you'll be eating meat again....
Posted by: Eat Politicians on Mar 14, 2007 1:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All the Vegan or vegetarians I know that have been on this diet for more than 5 years have had to start eating meat again because of health issues. Sorry...it's the truth.

And here's the real deal...if you want to buy free-range, organic meat it's easy. But cows and chickens are stupid and they will die because everything dies...

Should Americans eat less meat...yes....should commercial farming adopt ethical methods, or be kicked altogether for family farms...yes...should meat production end completely...no.

Anyone who has lived on a real farm...a family farm...knows the reality of life and death and it's tie to nature...city dwelling yokels with their funny ideas about nature are laughable....they lose all basis for argument about nature or life or death because they are so removed FROM it...

Live outside the city...understand reality, and get back to me in 5 years...real progressives eat meat...responsibly.

» Go veg for life Posted by: A.T.
» Sorry... it's NOT the truth. Posted by: wellread
» RE: depends... Posted by: tlCampbell
Being a vegetarian does not automatically make someone an environmentalist
Posted by: JS111272 on Mar 14, 2007 2:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Being a vegetarian does not automatically make someone an environmentalist and eating meat does not make someone less of an environmentalist, but eating meat does come with certain responcibilities which includes researching where your meat comes from and ensuring that the animal has lead the best life it can up to the point of slaughter and that the slaughter is done in the most humane way possible. Meat sold at knock-down prices in supermarkets can only mean that the animal has lead a very poor life. if you choose to eat meat then buy local produce from reputable farms and pay the extra for it.

Find out how that chicken got to your plate; you'll go veg
Posted by: ramsey on Mar 14, 2007 2:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Choices we make reflect our ethics and lifestyle; people eat meat because they do not know what goes on behind the closed doors of the factory farming business. As a former meat eater, I can promise you that most who find out about the horrors and suffering that animals endure would go veg on the spot.

A modest proposal...
Posted by: jwc on Mar 14, 2007 2:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Eating animals who can't defend themselves is wrong and unfair.

Let's eat the annoying, whiny, cares-more-for-any-animal-than-for-any-humans instead.

They would quite condemning us, we would eat like kings for years, and the potato famine wouldn't matter anymore.

» RE: A modest proposal... Posted by: Benjaminsjw
There is nothing progressive about vegetarianism
Posted by: Bobsays on Mar 14, 2007 3:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why veggies still peddle this hogwash I don't know. I lived with nomadic herders and learned very quickly what rubbish this 'we shouldn't eat meat' argument is.

Humans have a long-standing relationship with animals as providers of food and clothing. We are built to eat meat and you can live a long and healthy life eating meat.

Militant vegetarianism always hauls out the same old arguments: it is more moral and ethical, animals take up too much space, aren't animals 'cute', meat is cancerous etc. etc.

Let me be clear: I agree with animal welfare and its advocates, I agree with avoiding the harm caused by using chemicals and hormones on animals purely for the purpose of churning out cheap meat, I agree with paying farmers properly, I agree with preserving traditional meat products like prosciuto, and I disagree with supermarkets like Piggly Wiggly who flog rancid recycled meat to customers.

Progressives should be fighting for the following: fair prices for farmers, retention of traditional meat products, animal welfare, chemical-free or low-chemical animals, access to animal protein to the world's entire population so that people can be healthy, and population control so that we do not need to overwhelm the environment to meet out food needs. At present, the left and progressives support a ridiculous policy of mass immigration to the developed world to jack up its population. Across the developed world, the third world is moving in and causing over-crowding in our cities and suburbs, overwhelming the environment with over-consumption.

Those are the fights for progressives if they really care about people and planet.

» Sorry, Pat..... Posted by: mjabele
YET MORE FAKE-LEFTIST NONSENSE! LEFTISM IS ABOUT MONEY, NOT LIFESTYLES
Posted by: emmanuel_goldstein_fights_fake_lefties on Mar 14, 2007 3:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yet again we see how the rich and powerful are funding nonprofits like Alternet to crank out fakeLeftist propaganda that has been used to subvert trueLeftism (which is based on populist economics--taxing the rich to provide healthcare and social services, controlling the supply of labor, etc), and to create a new fakeLeftism that is based on LIFESTYLES. Thus this new fakeLeftism does not threaten the rich and powerful.

Formerly, under trueLeftism, the enemy of the left was the rich and powerful. NOW, the enemy of the new FAKELeft is the common man who does not happen to live the "proper" lifestyle. What is the proper lifestyle for the fakeLeft? Oh, just whatever nonsense they can whip up--vegetarianism, metrosexuality, etc etc etc.

» Rubbish. Posted by: kevred
» not a conspiracy, but an ecosystem with quasi-organic entities Posted by: emmanuel_goldstein_fights_fake_lefties
» RE: Lol Posted by: Techubus
I love Vegans
Posted by: drblack on Mar 14, 2007 3:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I only Eat Vegans. They taste great.
America is about freedom. It has disappeared,largely by the laws neocons have passed.
Take drugs,have sex with any consenting adult you wish, worship and believe what ever.......but if you think passing a law will change what people do then check out the "drug war".
Overpopulation causes so many problems. having children is much more damaging to the future of our planet.
Also science is the only thing that will save us. learn what it is and donot believe in old ,outdated books.
Mankind would never have survived the Ice age without eating meat and man would never have developed the brain that has made us what we are without the proteins in meat as well as the learning that went on to catch meat.
The technology is there to clone flesh and this will become how meat is produced in the future. Just like a hybrid or better a solar powered engine can allow one to drive an SUV and be good to the planet,cloned meat will eliminate all the concerns written in the article.
Everything living dies and we might as well enjoy ourselves by eating tasty food.
Be a vegan if you want and mind your self.

» RE: I love Vegans Posted by: WWMD
Why I am vegan (and to what extent should society restrict current meat-eating practises)
Posted by: aouie01 on Mar 14, 2007 3:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why am I vegan?

Standard short answer. I am vegan mainly for the animals, partly for the environment and health. But the true reasoning is a bit longer and is in four parts.

I don't eat factory farmed animals because I find it unnaturally cruel and exploitative. It is so unnaturally cruel and exploitative that I think society should ban the factory farming of animals.

I don't eat animals that are hunted or fished or trapped because I think it is unfair and irresponsible to use collective human technology against other sentient beings unless it is a matter of survival. When we (humans) make nuclear weapons or guns we (except for the arms industry) don't give them away indiscriminately partly for self preservation. I like to think that at least in part it is because we are trying to be responsible with the power of collective human knowledge. It would be unfair to use it against other humans without very good reason. For thousands of years collective human knowledge has been used against other species without sufficient thought as to whether it is unfair to the other species. Since I think it most unbiased logical analyses will find the use of collective human knowledge against other sentient beings to be unfair (unless it is a matter of survival). Even to this day, we still use our technology against many humans too in unfair ways. If and when society becomes almost ideally responsible about collective human knowledge then society should ban the irresponsible use of technology against other sentient beings unless it is a matter of survival.

I don't eat animals that I can catch and consume with my own natural body because I would rather not kill than kill a living being. I would rather not harm than harm a living being. I would not want society to force this principle on anybody and would actually vote against a law that wanted to outright ban humans from eating non-human animals. Just the same way I would vote against preventing a lion in a forest from eating a deer for food. There are many vegetarians and vegans who differ from me on this as they don't defer to nature as much as I do.

I don't eat naturally dead or accidentally killed animals (e.g. roadkill, animals dead in floods, old age, etcetera) because of the "yuck" factor.

So, avoiding unnatural cruelty, being responsible about collective human technology, and my personal religious beliefs are why I avoid most animal products. But, I am a vegan because of the "yuck" factor (Amusing, but true).

Sincerely,
Aouie

Kudos to the Alternet for posting this article.
Posted by: TwinsFanatic on Mar 14, 2007 4:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Kudos to the Alternet for posting this article, and for posting it as their top item.

Clearly it's creating a bit of a storm; for the same reason some abolitionists resisted suffrage, and some suffragettes resisted abolition, some progressives resist vegetarianism.

But vegetarianism is what progressive values are all about, which is why some of the great historical progressives—including Tolstoy, Gandhi, Einstein, and Schweitzer—were vegetarian advocates.

Being a progressive is about “comforting the afflicted and afflicting the comfortable.”

And no one is more afflicted than animals who are raised to be eaten.

Other animals are made of flesh, blood, and bone, just like we human beings are. They have the same five physiological senses. They are more like us than they are unlike us. Eating animals means eating the corpse of an animal who valued her life.

Tolstoy called vegetarianism “the taproot of humanitarianism,” because how can we call for peace, when we are powered by the product of violence and cruelty.

Einstein said that “nothing will benefit human health and increase chances of survival for life on earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet.”

Gandhi said in his essay, “The Moral Basis of vegetarianism,” that “to my mind, the life of a lamb is no less precious than that of a human being.”

All the defensive comments are great; we need to have the discussion. And all sides need to be heard.

Again, kudos to the Alternet for posting this article, and for posting it as the top item today.

Nice leading article Alternet - NOT!
Posted by: colinmeister on Mar 14, 2007 4:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In Zimbabwe, the leader of the opposition is in hospital with head injuries resulting from torture by Mugabe's thugs. In the USA, the administration is firing judges for political reasons.

The most important thing Alternet can come up with for a lead article is one which is trying to persuade people to eat what the author wants them to eat, and not what they choose to eat.

This stuff is trival banter, and should be relegated to the bottom of the list if it is posted at all - but what the hell, I'll forget all about it when I eat some nice foie gras for dinner tonight :-).

» Troll--ignore this person Posted by: kevred
A welcome call to fellow environmentalists to ditch meat
Posted by: ECtek on Mar 14, 2007 4:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If someone avoids meat because of the environmental devastation that industry causes, you have my full support.

Personally, I don't eat meat because I've seen how animals are treated before and after they arrive at the slaughter house. My feeling is that any self respecting person would not want to eat meat after they learn how common abuse to animals in factory farms it...we're talking about animals having their testicles cut off with no pain killer, birds having their beaks cut off so they don't peck each other to death in their tiny cages...If most people saw someone grab a robin and cut his beak off and then throw him back on the ground, they would rightly be pissed off. But when this happens to billions of birds raised for their meat, we are supposed to savor the taste? It is madness.

Jump Start Entrenched Beliefs
Posted by: Suzanne Carlson on Mar 14, 2007 4:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Surely no one wants to be the same person at 20 as they are at 30 as they are in middle age. You don't have to cling to behaviors and beliefs for an entire lifetime. Why not give these issues thought and consideration? You have nothing to lose and so much to gain.

"And yet, so many environmentalists continue to eat meat. Why?"
Posted by: lorenwrigley on Mar 14, 2007 4:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Tha author asks...the answer is... it costs a lot of money to eat healthy. I'm not talking about eating a strict diet of grains and greens and looking like I've been hanigng out ina field smoking weed and throwing a frisbee half my life. But I talking about (I like most people need real food) a diet for real people, who work and needand have kids, and need sustenance. I went to Whole Foods near where I live in Western Massachusetss, it's the only place of it's kind in these parts, and I looked at the prices, yet again, and walked out. I looked at a quart of orange juice and it was twice the price of what it costs in another corporate food moraket. Also, for instance, they have an elaborate hot bar and I chose somethings, merely amounting to a tasting of some items, and it came up to $9.00.+ change. It's price is $7.99 per pound of hotbar. I was shocked and told the clerk I changed my mind.
My guess is that most people can't afford to eat an elitist progressive diet.

"And yet, so many environmentalists continue to eat meat. Why?"
Posted by: lorenwrigley on Mar 14, 2007 4:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Tha author asks...the answer is... it costs a lot of money to eat healthy. I'm not talking about eating a strict diet of grains and greens and looking like I've been hanigng out ina field smoking weed and throwing a frisbee half my life. But I talking about (I like most people need real food) a diet for real people, who work and needand have kids, and need sustenance. I went to Whole Foods near where I live in Western Massachusetss, it's the only place of it's kind in these parts, and I looked at the prices, yet again, and walked out. I looked at a quart of orange juice and it was twice the price of what it costs in another corporate food moraket. Also, for instance, they have an elaborate hot bar and I chose somethings, merely amounting to a tasting of some items, and it came up to $9.00.+ change. It's price is $7.99 per pound of hotbar. I was shocked and told the clerk I changed my mind.
My guess is that most people can't afford to eat an elitist progressive diet.

You still drive and call yourself a progressive?
Posted by: mercianomad on Mar 14, 2007 4:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm sure if they ran an article about giving up your cars, people (vegetarians and non-vegetarians alike) would chime in defending their necessity for various reasons (work, taking my sick grandma to the hospital, kids, my bum knee, etcetera), but you'll never see this article on Alternet, because progressives as well as everyone else are - for lack of a better word - addicted to their autos.

I gave up driving a car. I commute, grocery shop, and tour by bicycle and it was the greatest decision I've ever made. I don't try and pulverize my brethren with propaganda about it though just because they didn't make the same decision. I do not say to them or to anyone else, "You still drive and call yourself a progressive? Look at who you're giving your money to by purchasing gasoline. Look at the damage you're doing to the environment. Look at how many people are killed in the US by autos alone (half an NFL football stadium's worth, not to mention all the animals). Look at how cars have affected development and communities." I choose to let people be instead. Labels like "progressive" are tough things.

I can be progressive in so many ways (hell, I voted Green), but yes, I will continue eating meat (though I gave up mammal meat of all kinds). Not only do I like the taste of it, but I don't feel ethically bad about it, and I eat it in moderation enough to say that I am quite healthy and hardly a burden on the environment, thank you very much. Another poster pointed out that where you get your meat is the big issue, and I agree. I have read "Diet for a New Planet," and while I liked it plenty, it didn't convince me of any imperative to give it up, and neither does this article.

I don't mean this comment to be OT or smarmy, by the way. I merely mean that we cannot all be expected to live like luddites in everything we do in order to claim the mantle "progressive," hence the whole thing I wrote above about autos. Personally, I feel that division amongst ourselves over issues like these is the worst thing possible. There are bigger fish to fry, and it's not from the ranks within.

» RE: Excelent Post Posted by: Techubus
Let's keep our focus on the real problem.
Posted by: Bev on Mar 14, 2007 5:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's what we ALL need to do together: We need to get control over our basic necessities. We need to control our food, water, and air. We need to get corporations out of farming. We need to stop corporations from polluting our water and air. We need to stop allowing the controlling one percent from pitting us against each other. They are winning, you know. We are all mad at each other for one reason or another....sitting in judgment against each other for every move we make...it's gotta stop. The corporations are the ones that are destroying us all. We need to unite in our resolve and keep our focus on that problem. Vegetarians: you can't blame meat eaters for how corporate farms are treating the animals. We must all unite on the problem and fight it together. Would you think it was right if meat eaters turned around and blamed you for what Monsanto is doing to crops around the world, the killing off of bees and threatening future crops? Should we blame you for Monsanto destroying family farmers around the world...stealing from them...destroying their livelihoods to the point that some are committing suicide? Is that your fault? No. We all must fight these problems together. If we don't, we don't stand a chance.

» you're so right. Posted by: mnlefty
» RE: you're so right. Posted by: mewhins24
» RE: you're so right. Posted by: NicoSuave
» RE: you're so right. Posted by: treestreet
» Yes! Thinking outside THE BOX! Posted by: Mr. Heathen
Meat is not the only food product contaminating the environment
Posted by: mnlefty on Mar 14, 2007 5:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Factory farming is done for fruits and vegetables too. American fast food restaurants support a large, hidden virtual slave market of immigrants trapped picking tomatoes, etc. We have all heard about this with the Taco Bell boycott, so I won't blather on about that.

My point is that yes, factory farming is bad. It is bad when used for vegetables, and even worse when used for livestock. But there are many of us who choose to eat meat only from known suppliers. I know the farmer who slaughters my meat. You have the right to have an ethical stance on meat eating. But farming vegetables and a small number of animals goes hand in hand. Grazing a few cows and raising a few chickens actually makes it easier to grow vegetables organically. The manure from 12 cows on a 100 acre farm is easily broken down for fertilizer. The cows graze areas that are not farmable and in limited numbers, actually control erosion. This type of meat production is a small, but growing percentage of us meat eaters.

I was a vegetarian for years and used to harp on people all the time, write articles, etc. I've read the data on both sides. You need to remove the moral argument if you are going to argue that it's about the environment. Eating locally is good for the environment. Small scale livestock production on an organic vegetable farm is good for the environment. Eating vegetarian at a restaurant that serves meat seems to still be supporting whatever farming method gets meat to that restaurant. If your argument is that killing animals is wrong, you should argue that. But unless you are eating only locally grown produce, your environmental point is not very strong. If you are really eating turnips and squash all winter long, fine, but if you are not (and I don't thing most vegetarians are) you are using a lot of fossil fuels getting all those environmentally 'friendly' vegetables to your plate.

If I raise, kill and eat my own chickens
Posted by: Lizmv on Mar 14, 2007 5:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can't be a progressive? What a load of doo-doo!
First, I have thyroid disease. After years of eating vegetarian, I went back to eating meat because I found I felt better eating it. It seems I get a small amount of thyroid hormones from meat that I do not get from my medication. After years of eating less than most people, I have my weight stabilized and I am less likely to develop myxedema in the winter months.
Raising most of the food I eat myself is a sacred act for me. And I am always happy to be able to slaughter a chicken in a humane way in order to feed a hunger person. I also fish and collect shellfish.
Second, I know many farmers who are NOT factory farmers. Who love their animals and treat them kindly. I wish I could post a picture here of a farm I love to visit, with all the animals happily frolicking together, goats, cows, chickens, ducks, in the fields. Or the spotless barn the spend the night in. Can we stop lumping small-scale family farms together with the mega-scale industrial farms? It's comparing apples and oranges and our small local farms need our support in order to survive!

Buy local
Posted by: feduphoosier on Mar 14, 2007 5:52 AM   
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There is an alternative... when you do eat meat (and 90% of the time, I do not,) you can buy from local. small farmers who raise their livestock in humane conditions, without hormones and antibiotics, grass fed, and who won't be shipping your meat to you from across the country.

Personally, I have ethical issues with eating meat, but I am a Celiac (I cannot eat gluten) so my food options are pretty limited. Because labeling is lacking from most processed foods, I have to avoid just about everything - and that includes eating out in most restaurants.

Add to that a sugar intolerance created by years of antibiotics which has led to overgrowth of yeast (yuck, but I'm betting many of you out there deal with this.) So that cuts out even more food, and a majority of the starches.

I need protein, and yet I don't seem to do well and 'thrive' on an all bean diet. Occasionally I will eat locally grown meat, but mostly I supplement my diet with local dairy products. I probably eat better than most other Americans, but I'm still stymied at every turn by food additives that contain gluten, so I pretty much have to eat locally grown foods.

Little if nothing is said in this article about genetically modified plants. This is another issue we need to address - as highlighted by horror stories about genetically engineered corn. This isn't limited to corn... now they are coming for our rice. Vegetarians must also pay attention to what they ingest... our food is under attack from many directions.

If you want to know what you are eating, buy local, organically grown foods - and if you want meat and dairy, buy local milk, cheeses, yogurt and grain fed meat from local, organic farmers. You will be supporting your community small farmers (which will help them survive, and in turn continue to provide you with edible choices.) We all need the option to protect our health and environment by turning our backs on all mass produced food - not just meat.

» RE: Buy local Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
hartsmart
Posted by: hartsmart on Mar 14, 2007 5:58 AM   
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THis clucking never used to happend-- any freezing climate would decimate any true vegan population, quieting ithem in the process. They now get brave, sheltered by carbon powered furnasses and Woolen underware.
The shortcut to natural nutrition: greens to goat, goat for dinner.
And please, don't read label, veggies are substandard feed, almost ALL WATER!----Strange, how they defend brocoli, that nauseating weed.

hartsmartliving.com

» vegans don't wear wool Posted by: veggiegrrrl
Switch Toward Veganism essential To Move Our Imperiled Planet to a Sustainable Path
Posted by: richardschwartz on Mar 14, 2007 6:02 AM   
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Kudos for this wonderful article. As president of the Jewish Vegetarians of North America (JewishVeg.com) and author of "Judaism and Vegetarianism" and over 100 articles at JewishVeg.com/schwartz, I argue that a switch toward vegetarianism is a societal imperative today. Please consider: We are not only trying to feed 6.5 billion people today, but also over 50 billion farmed animals and the "livestock" population is growing much faster than the human population and is expeced to double by 2050.
While some climate experts are warning of global warming spiraling out of control in a decade, with catastrophic consequences, the UN Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) has reported that "livestock" agriculture causes more greenhouse gases (in CO2 equivalents) than all forms of transportation.
While there is widespread shortages of food and water in many areas, 70% of the grain produced in the US is fed to animals destined for slaughtr and animal-based diets require up to 14 times as much water as vegan diets.

There is much more to be considered, but I hope this will help make people aware of the urgent need for major societal shifts to plant-based diets.

» Blame humans not animals Posted by: AdamG
Soy is not our savior
Posted by: Betty82301 on Mar 14, 2007 6:08 AM   
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I agreee wholeheartedly with this article, but worry about the touting of soy as a wonder food. It has an estrogenic effect on our bodies, and for women, particularly with any reproductive cancer in their history soy is a big NO NO! In Asian cultures soy is a condiment, not a staple. Eating it daily and putting it in your coffee or latte, brings with it it's own very serious risks. The soy industry has become big business, like the dairly business, which is why at every turn we are being told how good it is for us, which is simply not true.

» It's also a big no no Posted by: Lizmv
» RE: Soy is not our savior Posted by: CriminallySane
» RE: Soy is not our savior Posted by: icmfal
» RE: Soy is not our savior Posted by: y_hat
Why do I eat meat?
Posted by: owlbear1 on Mar 14, 2007 6:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Because for over 1000 generations my ancestors did.

Its a religous thing. I say thanks to everything I consume.

I don't insist Vegan eat meat, why do Vegan insist I don't?

It IS time to change - and not just our clocks!
Posted by: FWillard on Mar 14, 2007 6:17 AM   
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I've been giving thought to the early change for Daylight Savings Time and how this is a serious indication for the need to conserve energy. Now I've read Freston's article and the dots really are connecting for me. This is powerful information about how my choices affect the environment, as well as my health. I'm going to walk my talk and get on the veg bandwagon, my vegetarians friends will be so thrilled I've 'seen the light'!

"let them eat organic tofu"
Posted by: zooeyhall on Mar 14, 2007 6:22 AM   
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To say that you can't be progressive without being a vegetarian is utter nonsense.

I am a farmer myself. And I agree that corporate farming is harmful to the environment, and has similar economic costs. It would be better for the progressive community to push for more locally grown produce and support small producers. We could gain some real allies in the progressive cause if we did this.

Let's not do elitist articles like this. Too many vegetarians take an almost religious view of vegetarianism. This article, in particular, has a very elitist tone to it. I strongly suspect it was written by someone that I call one of the "Lexus Liberals". People who have, and will never have to face, the prospect of ever going hungry and not knowing where your next meal is coming from.

I participate in a program that donates cattle, hogs, and goat breeding stock to peasant farmers in places like Haiti. Hogs and goats are especially appropriate because they can eat almost everything, including local waste products. They don't require much land and add a vital supplement to the local diet.

According to this article, these poor farmers should "get religion" i.e vegetarinanism, and pop down to their local supermarket and get some organic tofu instead.

» I agree - and thank you Posted by: feduphoosier
» RE: "let them eat organic tofu" Posted by: AngryWhiteFemale
» lexus liberal, former model, self-help guru Posted by: profoflitandtrout
You call yourself progressive?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Mar 14, 2007 6:35 AM   
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You call yourself progressive and you still bother with this utter farce of an electoral system?? You still bother with peaceful protests that do NOTHING to stop this slaughter?

You aren't progressives. You are good little sheep following your various governmental shepherds. You dutifully vote for the less-terrible of two horrible candidates who will never do anything substantial to change the issues you care about because of their dedication to industrialism and corporatism.

You aren't making any difference because you aren't making any real changes!

www.greenanarchy.org

» speak for yourself n/m Posted by: AdamG
Excuses...
Posted by: magnolia1405 on Mar 14, 2007 6:34 AM   
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Fabulous article, thanks for posting it!

I love the excuses being used here by meat-eaters for why they "have to" eat meat. Here's a sampling:

Nomadic herders eat meat
There's civil unrest in Zimbabwe
Children need fish
Cavemen ate meat
Cows and chickens are stupid
People eat bananas from Ecuador

Ridiculous? Yes. These sound like comments a third-grader would make. You eat meat for one reason--because you like it. And it's OK to admit that.

Meat- and dairy-laden Western diets are responsible for a multitude of health problems, including heart disease, asthma, obesity, cancer, etc. In addition, factory farms cause vast environmental damage--not to mention the hideous cruelty to animals. And it's all unnecessary.

I've been a vegetarian for decades and am in perfect health--on my last visit, my doctor stated that he wish all his patients were as healthy. I've never had to "backslide" into eating meat for health reasons--anyone who feels the need to do so has either been brainwashed by the meat and dairy industries, or is simply too lazy to eat a balanced diet.

Do yourself, the environment and the animals a favor--stop making excuses, and go vegetarian.

» health argument is baloney Posted by: EasterBunny
» Do everyone a favor.... Posted by: feduphoosier
» RE: Do everyone a favor.... Posted by: sbrooks
» RE: xcuses... Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: xcuses... Posted by: y_hat
Self righteousness
Posted by: LeeAnnG on Mar 14, 2007 6:37 AM   
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I agree that factory farms and slaughterhouses are very bad. But I also agree with some of the posts that state how tiring it is to have yet another vegetarian read us the riot act about how terrible it is that non-vegetarians eat meat. Most -although not all - vegetarians display self righteousness to one degree or another, at least in my experience. It's a kind of "look how much better I am than you people who lack self control or moral rectitude."

I grow all my own vegetables and freeze or can them except for the raw ones I need for salads over the winter. And I'm working on that by planning to have a cold frame to grow lettuce next winter. I also buy all my eggs from a friend who raises chickens, I have started getting sausage from a local farmer and am looking into buying all my meal locally, and I eat venison.

No matter how much vegetarians go on about the moral issues, the truth is that life is in many ways violent. Other animals eat meat; that's the way of the food chain. If every human were to stop eating meat, the animal population would have to be cut in some other way. Yes, I realize that some of the animal populaton is large precisely because humans cultivate them, but anyone who lives in West Virginia, as I do, knows that the deer population is out of control. I sincerely hope that hunters do not stop culling the deer herds anytime soon.

Vegetarians can be healthy, but it takes time, research, and careful food selection to get complete protein and all the nutrients missing from the diet when meat is removed. Even more so for vegans who eat no animal products. For those who believe vegetarianism is important, this is not a huge consideration. However, it's the reason so many people have encountered vegetarians who seem ill or lethargic. These vegetarians apparently do not know how to eat the right foods in the right combinations.

As for the wide selection of soy products or other meat substitutes, I have tried them and find them revolting. Veggie burgers, soy dogs, fake chicken - all of them are unpalatable to me. I dislike tofu more than I can describe.

We all have our own ways of helping the environment. We can give up our cars or use them less, we can grow our own food or buy locally, we can become vegetarians or cut down on our meat consumption. But I really, really get tired of the preaching and holier-than-thou attitude of vegetarians. How dare the author challenge my right to be a "progressive" just because I refuse to give up meat?

Pack your bags! We're going on a guilt trip.

» RE: Self righteousness Posted by: jwc
A vegan diet is best for animals, the environment, and our health/
Posted by: JKirkner on Mar 14, 2007 6:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article is full of great information. A vegan diet is best, no doubt! People should stop making such ridiculous excuses and go veg. It's easy!

We are omnivores
Posted by: rusjacobson on Mar 14, 2007 6:40 AM   
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Factory farming :Bad. Eating meat: Good.We are part of Great Nature.Accept it.If you don't want to eat meat then don't.Save us from your judgmental, fundamentalist agenda.Having respect for all life does not preclude meat from our diet.It is part of the cycle and circle of life.Hunters also support and are huge contributors to habitat conservation.Treat all life,including the sentient broccoli and carrots as a Thou rather than an It.All life is sacred to me and matters.In order to live on earth we kill/transform life into food for our bodies.Whether it has a face or not it is still life.

» RE: We are omnivores Posted by: David V
TO HELL WITH YOU, KATHY FRESTON!
Posted by: David V on Mar 14, 2007 6:45 AM   
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If you think being a progressive is about telling others what they can and can't put in their mouths, you're no better than the republics who think they can tell us what we can and can't do in our bedrooms.

Here's a suggestion. I suggest that you READ AND LEARN:

You live your life in accordance with YOUR values and I'll live my life in accordance with MY values.

It is ENTIRELY POSSIBLE to eat meat and still minimize environmental impact, as well as shunning the products from the agri-industrial complex.

Get off your high horse or common-sense, moderate progressives (i.e. Me) will abandon the Democratic Party in droves, leaving it a far left fringe party of zero significance.

» Kathy Freston--you're invited Posted by: zooeyhall
» DEAD WRONG... Posted by: Scientz
AlterNet is starting to sound pretty fringe-y here...
Posted by: realist on Mar 14, 2007 6:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I hope you're not suggesting that a person HAS to be a vegan to be a "good progressive." That would be too much in the same vein as the people who tell me I'm not a "good American" if I don't want my kids to be led in prayer at school.

Even as a long-time progressive whose political views were partly inspired by "The Jungle" - a Progressive-era novel on the abuses of the meatpacking industry - I don't want to go there.

Veganism is a commendable practice for those who choose it. A discussion of its dietary benefits is important, especially in a world where almost noone gets the recommended minimum of five daily servings of fruit and vegetables. A discuss of its ecological benefits is also important. But to use the vegan lifestyle as a criteria for judging progressives would be absurd.

Sell the lifestyle on its own benefits, regardless of one's political affilliation. To link one with the other is to diminish both.

Groan...
Posted by: moogyboy on Mar 14, 2007 6:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another gratuitous bit of self-congratulatory filler from Alternet...what exactly does this article seek to accomplish by trotting out the usual list of pro-veg arguments? A long, drawn-out and pointless "debate" between those who agree and those who disagree, both of whom already know all this stuff and neither of whom are likely to change their views. So information and persuasion are out...that leaves entertainment. And reading the back-and-forth between veggies and omnis in these comment boards is about as entertaining as watching pro wrestling. (The despised working class aren't the only ones who need their weekly dose of mindless melodrama, after all.)

And I really object to the cliquish arrogance implied by the title: "Real progressives go veg. I'm a real progressive. You're not." Grow up.

Oh Please! Something New?
Posted by: electricmonk on Mar 14, 2007 6:55 AM   
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Want to be progressive - Eat Local, eat seasonal and eat organic.
Eating vegetarian doesn't help the planet if it's not local. I'll take a local chicken over fruits and vegetables raised on petrochemical fertilizers, sprayed with herbicides, pesticides, and hormones, and that were trucked, flown, and shipped in any day. And oh dear, I hate to tell you what you are going to have to do to your clothes to be progressive. There's some nasty stuff in the woodshed there, too. So give us a break, give us some news, don't proselytize!

» RE: Oh Please! Something New? Posted by: anthroman
» RE: Oh Please! Something New? Posted by: anthroman
Because it tastes good.
Posted by: Scientz on Mar 14, 2007 6:56 AM   
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Why do we eat most things? I would wager the majority of North Americans eat for their mouths not their bodies, let alone the environment...

reducing meat consumption
Posted by: kelt65 on Mar 14, 2007 7:01 AM   
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I for one eat meat 5 times a week or less. I don't think it is neccessary to go 100% vegetarian to solve this problem and it hurts this cause to tell people they need to be vegetarians. It isn't going to happen.

Nevertheless i consider eating meat more than a few times a week to be quite unhealthy; I feel much better on this diet, myself.

A plant based diet is needed to bring back the balance
Posted by: carolinaraptor on Mar 14, 2007 7:04 AM   
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A great article on why a vegan diet is best for everyone, except the meat, egg, and dairy industries, and the government. The politicians at high places, like you know who, you know, the one with the ranch in Texas, certainly wouldn't like it. But the science is clear that it's the way to go. Please check the following: www.pcrm.org, www.vegfamily.com, www.earthsave.org.

Our evolutionary ancestors
Posted by: icj on Mar 14, 2007 7:05 AM   
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Something the author left out when responding to the point "our ancestors all ate meat, so why shouldn't we" (obviously not verbatim): during our evolutionary history, which accounts for about 90% of human history, we were hunters and gatherers. Contrary to popular hairy-chested belief that hunters provided all the food, most of our ancestors diet came from fruit, nuts, seeds and wild plants, with only a small supplementation of lean, wild meat when it was available. Not only did meat make up a very small portion of our ancestors diets, it was also lean, wild meat that didn't have nearly the fat content (or additive/preservative) content that meat does today. To say that this evolutionary history supports the wholesale, often daily consumption of farm-raised meat is disingenuous.

Full disclosure: I'm technically a pescatarian, meaning I eat fish - I couldn't give up sushi!!

Hitler was a vegetarian
Posted by: hot karlrove on Mar 14, 2007 7:06 AM   
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Equating vegetarians to moral superiority is laughable. If being a vegeterian is the sole criteria for being a progressive then I guess Adolf Hitler needs to be added to the list containing Ghandi etc.

Fakeleft indeed. Fake lefties please go form your own political party and please stop assocciating with the Democrats and Greens.

You're just as bad as the neocon wingnuts in wanting to control my personal life.

Off to eat a hearty breakfast with STEAK and EGGS before I go to my UNION job.

The trouble with progressivism...
Posted by: mark_proulx on Mar 14, 2007 7:08 AM   
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This article exemplifies one disturbing element of progressivism in that it, like many other movements, can become rather doctrinaire. In so doing, the self-appointed "keepers of the flame" determine the "rules" one must adhere to in order to belong to the "club." How ironic that a movement that ostensibly strives to be inclusive tends to evolve toward increasing levels of exclusivity. Phooey!

ye olde herbivore vs omnivore debate
Posted by: treestreet on Mar 14, 2007 7:16 AM   
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The Introduction to the cookbook /Laurel's Kitchen/ is a wonderful tribute to the power of eating home-cooked food and the community that is created through it. And, how not eating animals continues a respectful interrelationship of life...

One middle of the night many years ago I remember coming out into the kitchen after reading the essay for the 3rd time. It was past midnight - I turned on the kitchen light and in the middle of the floor were two big arthropods facing it off (a lacy deca-footed almost vinagarone head-to-head with a large brown spider). What a testament to carnal reality - two critters who would be happy to eat the other. It was quite a message to me because I was in love with the treatise on "no meat" I had just re-read.

We have a renaissance of sorts in our country to support ranchers and farmers who treat meat animals right. I am lucky to live in a part of the country where there is still some range left and families who have for generations raised small herds now form the foundation of a movement where consumers can buy non-stockyard-raised beef.

If you talk to a good rancher - the truest land steward - you know that range land grasses grow better when they are eaten by range animals. Used to be buffalo. Cattle can join elk, deer, antelope. A good rancher will rotate stock around and protect their fodder in the ecosystem. This is a way of life that needs our support. Scrutinize the pamphlets at the market that describe the rancher's practices. Some places who claim to sell range-fed beef have a sentence or two that makes you question whether it is really range-fed.

I've read debates where folks argue for months whether humans are really omnivores. Viewing the treatment of most meat animals makes one want to be herbivore. However as our world grows increasingly complex, supporting farmers & ranchers who carry on good land stewardship also makes one want to eat meat.

Has everyone gone nuts!
Posted by: HomerScarborough on Mar 14, 2007 7:19 AM   
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I am shocked at the turmoil that this idiotic article has brought forth. I guess these are the same people that think it is fine to throw animal blood all over those who decide to wear their genuine animal fur coats in the winter. I eat meat because I LIKE THE TASTE, and it does provide protein and other needed substances. If this means that I am not "progressive," then so be it. For us to go off on a tangent when there are other more important issues (like good government), is stupid. I don't care that you don't want to eat meat. That is your decision, but you have no right to make the same decision for me, or criticize me because of what I do in the way of my diet. Your sanctimony is absurd. This is not a religious right or left decision, or conservative vs. liberal, or Democrat vs. Republican issue. This is an individual decision that should be left to the individual to make for him or herself.

Homer Scarborough

» RE: Has everyone gone nuts! Posted by: cmaciain
Greasy Gut Syndrome
Posted by: azelb on Mar 14, 2007 7:27 AM   
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The health problems that result from the consumption of meat should be presented as an argument as well. The biggest problem is the alimentary canal coating with fat so that all of the ducts that lead into and away from the intestines fail to function. That includes the bile duct, prancreas and alementary organs that absorb digested food. This greasy coating provides an incubator for disease germs that enter the area through the consumption of food and water. Without this incubation the harmful bacteria would not have the large numbers to cause diseases. The grease also interfers with the absorbtion of protein and carbohydrates that have been through the digestive process. This condition causes all of the main diseases of modern man. Diabetes, cholesterol build up in circulation, liver cirrhosis, just to name some of the health problems associated with the consumption of meat and other fatty substances like cheese and butter.

The tofu high
Posted by: Catgrrl on Mar 14, 2007 7:29 AM   
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I've been a vegetarian for 17 years and I feel great, both emotionally and physically. I guess you could say that I'm a vegetarian for selfish reasons, because I really do love the feeling I get by voting for animals and the planet every time I eat. It's the same feeling you get after you've won a race or finished a particularly tricky Sudoku puzzle. I swear, it even makes Brussels sprouts taste good.

Excrement
Posted by: NoPCZone on Mar 14, 2007 7:32 AM   
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Nothing wrong with being a veggie, but you are not bound by the Vegan Taliban. All my bullshit detectors go off when someone tells me that people cannot be x if they do not do y and offer nothing but their personal opinions. If you want to eat meat - knock yourself out. Just don't let anyone shame or scare you into it.

Stop Killing Plants , you cruel people
Posted by: OhioPatriot on Mar 14, 2007 7:40 AM   
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They are living entities who have a purpose in life that far exceeds your ravenous appetites for plant flesh.

You behead lettuce before it can reproduce.

You pick and eat apples right in front of the mother tree.

You dig deep into the soil to find potatoes scurrying to hide.

Your cruelty punctures my faith in human compassion.

Please stop the carnage, so this years crops may seed.

» RE: Stop Posting Idiotic Rants Posted by: AngryWhiteFemale
» RE: Stop Posting Idiotic Rants Posted by: lynned2002
» RE: Stop Posting Idiotic Rants Posted by: Techubus
» RE: Stop Posting Idiotic Rants Posted by: OhioPatriot
Wanted !!- Some good advice.
Posted by: Lincoln fan on Mar 14, 2007 7:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I really have nothing against eating vegetables it's just that they are extremely repulsive to me. To smell most vegetables cooking, cauliflower, cabbage, onions, and garlic, to name only a few, nauseates me. While I don't enjoy eating them I can eat string beans, lima beans, corn, and potatoes, without gagging.

If anyone has any tips on how to overcome this, I would appreciate it. Although I realize that it's probably psychological I don't want to spend a fortune on therapy. I've tried holding my nose but that doesn't work. Plus cooks take offense at that.
Bob Reichenbach,
Director, The Lincoln Initiative

» RE: Wanted !!- Some good advice. Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Wanted !!- Some good advice. Posted by: faeriefolk
» RE: Wanted !!- Some good advice. Posted by: Lincoln fan
Time for Environmentalists to BE the Change they want to see
Posted by: robynmoore on Mar 14, 2007 7:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The truth is, many people call themselves environmentalists because it's easy and they can, without having any real accountability. Whereas, when you call yourself a vegetarian, there are direct actions and results that can be measured. I feel that many so called environmentalists are just not ready to take that leap and actually committ to making a change. It's just too hard for them to actually alter their behavior- they'll buy recycled paper and a hybrid. Then they'll drive they're hybrid down the street with the AC blasting to pick up their hamburger. Where is the integrity in that? If environmentalists are really committed to making this planet a better place to live in, then they need to start with themselves first. Of course we've all heard this quote, but I think the environmentalists in the world need to read it again and let it sink in...."You must be the change you wish to see in the world".... (Mahatma Gandhi).

Do they let just anyone contribute articles?
Posted by: Clarksville76 on Mar 14, 2007 7:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One point I just had to knit-pick...

Hunter-gatherers did not live in a time of scarcity, but in fact a time of abundance, because the natural systems they derived their food from were stable, diverse, and resilient. Because of this they were not worried about tomorrow or next year or their retirement- which we cannot achieve- and therefore lived without anxiety over their security.

Also, hunters did not "dominate" the animals they hunted. They believed them to be as intelligent as themselves. The idea of dumb animals and domination came only after the advent of domestication and barnyard living. Hunting was more than killing for food. It was what Paul Shepard called the "Sacred Game".

The effects of meat on the human body are taken out of context to its original role to humans 12,000+ thousand years ago. How many of us eat wild game versus domesticated animal meat? How many of us walk and run almost daily? How many of us eat only fresh, whole foods? And how many of us have the discipline to eat only enough to feed the body, and not our psychological damage?

The sustainability problem starts with one issue: too many people. We evolved as hunters, and shared similar social characteristics and population density as true carnivores such as lions or wolves. We can surely live on a vegetarian diet, as I do, but we cannot populate the earth as if we are grass-grazing herding animals. The only way to live sustainably on this earth is to have lived the way our ancestors lived for 2 million years- collecting fruits, veggies, nuts, and tubers, and supplimenting these with occasional wild game, who harvest solar energy from natural environments without destroying them. Anyways, none of this is going to happen anytime soon, so I say we're screwed if we expect to live in harmony with nature anytime soon. If it makes you feel better to think you're making a difference, then go ahead, but that's just what you do to deal with the frustration and insecurity that we experience in this modern world. If there are resources to burn, they will be burned. While the toilet paper is plentiful, we are oh so wasteful with it. Only when we are down to the last few feet do we start to conserve. Until that day comes (which is now by most of our standards) don't expect sweeping changes to come from mostly white, upper middle class, educated university towns or the sewage covered streets of a 3rd world country.

And anyone who knows about permaculture or sustainable food production knows that growing all of one's calories is almost impossible using just plants; at least in the city. Two great solutions are tree crops, like acorns or mesquite beans, and raising micro livestock- rabbits and chickens. I challenge any of you to live on a diet of garden produce, acorns, and rabbit meat, and keep active with walking and running, and let me know if you develop heart disease.

» Sorry, Pat..... Posted by: mjabele
» In response to Anthroman...kind of. Posted by: Clarksville76
» Anthroman's response Posted by: anthroman
Tell you what......
Posted by: dikaiosyne on Mar 14, 2007 7:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Tell you what ......When animals switch to vegetarian diets exclusively then (and only then) will I switch to being a vegetarian. Since I am a conservative and I take the sayings of scripture seriously. There are no prohibitions against eating meat and fish. In fact there are verses where the eating of meat is authorized and promoted. The only thing that scripture makes clear is that if one eats animal proteins that the slaughter of these creatures not be done cruelly. They are here for our benefit whether as meat or as beasts of burden or as well loved pets. Anyway....What is the difference if one adjusts to a vegetarian diet? You often kill the plant. The only difference as far as I can see is that the plants can't run away from you. Poor little plants! I can hear them screaming as they are pulled from the soil....You vegetarians have no heart.

» RE: Tell you what...... Posted by: eatplants
» RE: Tell you what...... Posted by: Blade
Food Allergies?
Posted by: sbrooks on Mar 14, 2007 8:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The article addresses many important points but fails to address that some of us would love to be vegetarians but have major dietary restrictions due to severe food allergies. Nearly every major source of protein available to vegetarians is not an option for those of us with allergies to things like nuts, beans, the mushrooms and garlic found in most non-soy veggie burgers, etc.

The point is that we can not all eat the same things. No amount of the writer's "patience and decorum" is going to render me able to subsist on plant protein.

» RE: Food Allergies? Posted by: tlCampbell
» RE: Food Allergies? Posted by: sbrooks
My 9 year old daughter and I are vegetarians...
Posted by: ramsey on Mar 14, 2007 8:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My 9 year old daughter and I are vegetarians. We do not eat meat because we do not believe in eating anything living with organs similar to our own. Animals suffer way too much in the hands of people. The demand of meateaters has required many farmers/companies to subject these animals to suffering. abuse, neglect, drugs etc - which in turn affects the outcome of the wellbeing of that animal and thus the people eating it. Vegetarianism is a healthier choice.

Posted on behalf of Robin L. Tremblay-Costello

save the cows but kill the children
Posted by: solrev on Mar 14, 2007 8:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Progressives confuse me. Progressives should be vegetarians because relative to the animal kingdom progressives are pro life. The exception in the animal kingdom is for human beings, then progressives become pro choice.

» Be glad to... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Be glad to... Posted by: mjabele
Haha, yeah right
Posted by: Boomerang on Mar 14, 2007 8:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Fuck off for trying to say that my political beliefs are boiled down to whether or not I eat eggs.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go to work, come home, and grill up a delicious hamburger for dinner. I'll even top it with some delicious cheese (probably pepper jack, though the swiss has been in the fridge longer, hmmm).

If dictating people's diets is what it takes to be "progressive," then I think you know where I think you can stick your "progressivism."

» RE: Haha, yeah right Posted by: bwv3.14159
» RE: Haha, yeah right Posted by: Boomerang
» RE: Haha, yeah right Posted by: bwv3.14159
» RE: Haha, yeah right Posted by: zoomorph
» RE: Haha, yeah right Posted by: bwv3.14159
Beefy Progressive
Posted by: lynned2002 on Mar 14, 2007 8:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am so sick of this vegetarian rant. I need animal protein and that's all there is to it, I won't even go into why. You vegies are confusing people who regularly wolf down an 18 ounce T-bone with those of us that have a few (3-5) ounces once or twice a day. There is no reason that animals cannot be raised in a humane manner and it is very easy to find protien that is raised in this manner. As for the ethics of killing an animal it's been done since the beginning of time. What matters is how it is done and whether or not there is waste.
So if you want to be vegetarian knock yourself out. But leave me and my meat alone.

» RE: Beefy Progressive Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Beefy Progressive Posted by: lynned2002
Unfortunately, a Racist, Ethnocentric Article
Posted by: Naomi on Mar 14, 2007 8:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
On top of the black/white thinking of this article, it is also unfortunately profoundly racist and ethnocentric, as so many veggie arguments are. For example:

1) The author says, "If you are an Eskimo, or you're living in sub-Saharan Africa and you're reading this blog, I'm not going to begrudge you your pound of flesh...But if you're reading this in a developed country..."

A developed country? So, Inuits, African natives, and other indigenous people are not developed? Into what? Over-consumptive, self-absorbed westerners who have totally lost their connection to the native wisdom and connection with the land of their ancestors?

Secondly, frankly its not your place to begrudge these indigenous people anything. They are NOT ASKING FOR YOUR OPINION, NOR YOUR APPROVAL for their traditional lifeway.

2) But none of us feels similarly at the prospect of pulling weeds or mowing our lawn -- because we know that weeds and lawns have no capacity to feel pain...I assure you, grass does not suffer like these poor creatures[animals] do."

Really? Are you sure about that? Do we know for a fact that plants don't feel pain - or something akin to pain? What about the age-old idea that everything is alive, and intelligent? Are plants excluded from that? So I guess when a native 'shaman' talks to the spirit of a plant, then this person is just imagining it?

The fact is, in a traditional indigenous world view, EVERYTHING IS ALIVE, and thus our use or exploitation of any living thing, including plants, comes with ethical and moral responsibilities and consequences.

To exclude plants from this connectiveness is ridiculous and convenient for reactionary people who have not bothered to consider this issue through the lens of someone who is not white, western, 'modern', and divorced from the living history of people and place.

Respectfully,
Naomi Archer
Four Directions Solidarity Network
www.eswn.org
arche@riseup.net

» I almost took you seriously Posted by: Phenix
Stopping the Lying Might Help
Posted by: Jarmadi on Mar 14, 2007 8:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The very first comment here is a good example of a well intentioned, urban person who has unwittingly accepted the lies of animal rights and vegan propagandists. Many good people trust these sources to tell them the truth about issues, and have been failed miserably, as much as the religious right have been failed by Karl Rove, his troup of junior Attwaters, and the rest of the Bush cheerleader squad.

The author of this article, who also passes on a lot of fabricated information, should perhaps pause from searching for the moral pathology of meat-eaters, and instead inspect her own.

» RE: Stopping the Lying Might Help Posted by: bwv3.14159
You can still eat meat
Posted by: Mike's Perspective on Mar 14, 2007 8:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm an omnivore and I think that's OK. I'm also a progressive. We should work with agriculture to improve the conditions food animals live in and the nature of the slaughterhouse, what, experience. We can do this probably most effectively through the market place. For example, my family and I have purchased a plan through Town & Country Foods, which has contracts with small farms that have a commitment to high standards in animal husbandry and meat production. They deliver frozen packages of high quality meats to your door and the cost is roughly what you'd pay for lower quality products in the grocery store.

Until we all can safely and wisely become vegetarians, I suggest a middle path approach.

» RE: You can still eat meat Posted by: lynned2002
Brilliant Bites of Information
Posted by: Betsy L. Angert on Mar 14, 2007 8:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dear Kathy Freston, . . .

The title alone caused me to sing with joy. I thank you soooooo much for writing this treatise.

I have written of the concepts in numerous comments online. I began a more definitive missive months ago. I need to finish that project. I have completed many an exposé on food and the folly of what many presume to be healthy eating. I always said I would never be a fanatic about healthy food, or anything else. Preachy practices are not mine.

Nevertheless, I remain haunted by those that claim to be Progressives and eat meat. These persons often think that wars, that kill, are an option. Obviously, from their own habits, slaughtering innocents is still an option. It is not for me. I want no wars ever; nor do I think murdering animals [or human mammals] is wise.

If we examine the financial cost alone, supplying meat to millions is expensive. The ways in which flesh "food production" depletes natural resources, yikes!

The inhumane practices involved hurt my heart!

May I offer my missives on food for your review. I invite any comments you might share.

Fast Food Is Not Fast
Childhood Obesity. Adult On-Set Diabetes. Osteoporosis. Soda
Weight. Balancing Fat with Feelings, Habits With Health
Calories Do Not Count. Cellular Considerations Do
Farming Is Falling, Effecting Our Food and Families

Betsy L. Angert
BeThink.org

Go veg if you want, don't if you don't, who cares?
Posted by: CriminallySane on Mar 14, 2007 8:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I do meatless days, sometimes multiple days, but still eat beef, pork, fish, and chicken. As well as cute, cuddly little lamb...mmmm...lamb...pass the garlic!

Does no one on the vegetarian side ever consider how little being a self-righteous scold will help your "cause"? You reveal a near-complete lack of understanding of human nature - when I'm badgered about something, by anyone, my impulse is to resist in direct proportion to how much I'm being badgered by whoever is doing it. And I'm pretty damned normal, in the incorrect (psychological/moral) as well as the correct (statistical) meaning of the word.

I got some better ways to save the environment
Posted by: jtinsf on Mar 14, 2007 8:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is probably more effective- stop driving, and stop reproducing, and even harder, get others to stop doing so.

It's easy to stop eating meat-how about doing something more useful instead? You can still be self-righteous about not driving.

Get a bicycle

fine piece, and pretty much ignorable
Posted by: DaBear on Mar 14, 2007 8:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"And yet, so many environmentalists continue to eat meat. Why?" Most likely because their source of occasional meat is not the factory type. Most of us actually know our rancher personally and know what kind of ranch it is, have been there ourselves, and have no illusions about the cost of a life for a life. I had to laugh at the SUV analogy. Unfortunately, it holds no water as an SUV would only be quivalent to the factory farm in the first place.

The entire article pretends to be persuasive then engages in all the guilt-shame tactics that most meat eaters (including the problem meat eaters who take their flesh off the factory-farm Freston rightly rails about) simply ignore anyway. Preach to the choir, why don't ya. I don't feel guilty at all for the manner and amount of meat my family occasionally takes on an annual basis. I feel even more confident that my food is taken from people I know persoanlly in addition to what we grow illegally on the porch—condo HOA's in CA can take your food, even your condo and bill you for that theft, thanks in no small part to folks who are busy railing against meat when they ought to be railing against the powerful CA HOA lobby.

All in all, pick your battles. This ain't mine, Kathy. Good luck with the alienating everyone with goofy analogies.

Tips
Posted by: koavf on Mar 14, 2007 9:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1.) First off, the link to meat.org is not properly written, and consequently does not work.
2.) Secondly, to all would-be vegetarians, I would recommend a slow and well-informed transition to a non-meat diet. I made the change rapidly and in an ill-informed manner and it made me pretty sick for a few weeks. Since then, I have transitioned to eliminating all animal products from my diet, and I need to be sure to get B12. Also, I had some cabbage that was cooked in broth (which I did not know at the time), and it made me pretty ill. Be informed not only about the dynamics of a vegetarian or vegan diet, but also of what is in your food and from where it came.

Vegan for 19 years
Posted by: eatplants on Mar 14, 2007 9:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a vegan for 19 years I want to report that my diet is more varied and delicious than it was when I ate meat. The best benefit is not my stable weight, low cholesterol or stronger nails; The best benefit is that I have allowed myself to witness the living conditions of pigs, hens and cows without flinching. I can face the horror and work to end it, without feeling complicit. Forget the health and environmental aspects - acting to bring kindness to innocent beings who suffer is reward enough for me.

HITLER WAS A VEGETAIRAN
Posted by: hot karlrove on Mar 14, 2007 9:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just saying that this is a myth without any citations to refute said myth is...
Am I on the freep or Limbaugh site?
You assume that any meat eater overtly supports corporate farming.
Sounds kinda like if you don't support the war you don't support the troops total bs associations and non-logic.

So, please disprove this "myth" and don't give me citations from the PETA site, that's just as silly as a wingnut backing up assertions as facts using FOX news as a source.

Really if this statement is a myth you have a great forum to set the record straight. I'm open to the truth so if you can prove it instead of just refuting my statement go for it.

» RE: HITLER WAS A VEGETAIRAN Posted by: ericao
» RE: HITLER WAS A VEGETAIRAN Posted by: profoflitandtrout
» RE: HITLER WAS A VEGETAIRAN Posted by: ericao
» Not quite. Posted by: kevred
» RE: Not quite. Posted by: hot karlrove
» And Bush eats meat. Posted by: WitchyNy
Go to the Bronx or East LA and lecture them about vegetarianism
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on Mar 14, 2007 9:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Tell all those poor bedraggled folks how they should be vegetarian or else they're not authentic poor people! Then take them to Whole Foods so they can marvel at the prices.

The Greenmarket (farmers' market) program has been very popular in poor sections of NYC - I don't know about LA - but the "progressive" veg argument needs to take into account the usual white liberal elitism and unacknowledged racism.

» RE: Who said anything about being poor? Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: Who said anything about being poor? Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
Veg Farms are "sweatshops" as well
Posted by: chomsky on Mar 14, 2007 9:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just to be clear, when you said:

But American slaughterhouses are sweatshops. They employ people working illegally who can't defend themselves out of fear of being deported.

you failed to point our that our farms are not too much different. Having worked as a legal aid worker visiting large farms to speak with the workers about their rights, I can tell you that >90% of the workers on these farms are in this country illegally and suffer great injustice b/c of their fear of being deported or lack of knowledge about US laws.

From that standpoint, eating meat certainly won't decrease the amount of "sweatshop" labor in this country - it will just shift it from the meat factory to the farms.

» RE: Veg Farms are "sweatshops" as well Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
THERE IS NO LITMUS TEST FOR PROGRESSIVISM!!
Posted by: Scientz on Mar 14, 2007 9:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are at least three distinct meanings of the word "progressive", as it is used today. Ordered from the most vague to the most specific, they are as follows:

1. In the broadest sense, the label "progressive" may be used in self-description of anyone who advocates any kind of change in a society, or in any part of the political spectrum.

2. In a somewhat more restricted sense, "progressive" is a term used within left-wing politics to distinguish those who advocate moderate or gradual social change - often called either "progressives" or "reformists" - from those who advocate larger and more rapid changes - called "revolutionaries" or "radicals".

3. Finally, in the most specific sense, there is the continuation of the political movement/ideology that began in the late 19th century. Progressives support the continual advancement of workers' rights and social justice. The first progressives were some of the earliest proponents of anti-trust laws and the regulation of large corporations and monopolies. They were also among the first advocates of government-funded environmentalism, and the creation of National Parks and Wildlife Refuges.


Its not "only vegetarians may apply" so don't let progressive values get hijacked by the vegan front.

Vegitarians = Born Again
Posted by: VagusDoc on Mar 14, 2007 10:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Amazingly, the vegitarians and the born again Christians share one thing in common; they can't wait to shove their views down your throat and don't much care for yours.
P.S. I love hamburger, turkey, and chicken! Fish is great!

» Why did God make animals taste so damn good??? Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» Why did God make animals taste so damn good??? Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
CAPITALISM IS THE PROBLEM-WHAT IS THE QUESTION?
Posted by: WitchyNy on Mar 14, 2007 10:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I own a Country Living Grain Mill.
It is hand powered.
I use organic grain.

My family grinds all our grain and bakes all our bread. Therefore we have organic bread as the main basis of our diet.
This takes time, (not all that much) and one could attach a bike or a machine to the mill, but something happens...the grinding becomes a ritual part of the day...and we enjoy it.
And there is no comparsion to FRESH ground grains.

I have chickens, and my family eats eggs.

But my chickens run free and eat bugs and grass...and give me manure for my organic garden. I do not see how anyone can even HAVE an organic garden without chickens...what do they do for bug control and manure?

I don't eat my chickens...and even when they get old...they still eat bugs and give manure. I can do this because I am not interested in PROFIT. I am interested in a healthy-peaceful-family and life.

I think eveyone should get a goat. One goat can provide a family with milk for a long time...you don't need to breed her every year.
I do think Americans-especially city ones-are divorced from the land and the animals...and I don't think mass-produced vegetarian food is the long-term answer either. That is just fitting vegetarinism into the exsiting capitalist system.

A goat-for milk and cheese , chickens-for eggs, an organic garden, a GOOD grain mill...that will pretty much do the average family. And change the world. If only-

If you want to defend eating mass produced meat..you really should go visit a big factory slaughterhouse first. Then post a letter here.
I would be interested in reading a letter from somone who has done that and feels that it was a postive experience.
I bet not a one of you.

Has anyone considered the sexism in this issue? It seems it is mainly men who defend meat eating. Do they think it is macho? Is there something in the meat itself that feeds male hormones? Look at those scary commercials on TV..WE ARE MEN-WE EAT MEAT! What is that all about?
Personally I think vegetarian men are VERY sexy...maybe this is one way to fight this war. What do you say guys?
A beautiful healthy vegetarian woman..or Ann Coulter?

Policy definition problem--meat eating ban vs sustainable & humane eating
Posted by: Earthian on Mar 14, 2007 10:29 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, progressives should agree on what is progressive and what is not. But that must be defined at a level that unites progressives, for we need a platform of policies that includes domestic policy, foreign policy, and electoral/constitutional policy. A policy that eating meat is not progressive is too concrete and divisive. Reading these posts confirms that. When a particular policy position is divisive the solution is to make the policy more abstract and still inclusive of the cooperative basis for the progressive worldview. I know people who don't drive, but bike and walk. That is fine for them. But they don't live in a rural area. They evidently don't do work that requires hauling heavy stuff long distances, etc. Most progressives drive.

When it comes to how we eat, most people are omnivores: they eat meat (including fish), veggies, fruit, eggs, cheese, grain products and more. That includes most of the 28 percent of the population who self-identifies as progressive.

Some progressives hunt and/or fish. They eat meat in a more local, more energy-efficient and more sustainable way than those who do not hunt for their food.

Most of the meat I eat is local venison harvested sustainably and humanely from the deer herd. If all deer hunting stopped the deer population in any given state would explode, for other predators do not exist in sufficient numbers to control their population. Then it would crash, causing enormous suffering by deer and farmers and car drivers alike. Local wildlife biologists know this and deer hunting is regulated to keep the herds sustainable. It is the same with other game animals.

I respect people who limit their diets based on their conscience. But a uniting policy not a divisive one is best.

So the progressive position on food should be something like "sustainable, environmentally safe, healthy and humanely produced food" not "eating meat is forbidden."

Enough with the Goddamn Convert to Vegetarianism/Veganism Articles on Alternet
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com on Mar 14, 2007 10:29 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Every freaking week there is an article on the "front page" of Alternet in the "Top Stories" area about "convert to vegetarianism".

There is a reason people don't like Jehovah's witnesses, we don't like to be preached to by someone who wants us to convert to their "religion" and from what I've seen lately, vegetarianism and veganism is a religion.

People either want to eat meat or they don't.

There are many bigger stories out there, groups and goals, we should be trying to form and accomplish, that should be taking up the major news areas in Alternet.

Yet without fail these Veggie articles keep getting the most press here.

Its coming to the point where Alternet is looking like less and less of a news site worth my visit. Common Dreams isn't what it used to be, new interesting articles appearing less and less, and now Alternet seems to be going the Veggie route.

Where is a libertarian socialist supposed to get their news anymore?

It's not about eating meat, it's about corporate fascism and rampant consumerism
Posted by: harinama on Mar 14, 2007 10:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Firstly, to all of you who speak of "fakeleft" propoganda, go back to Karl Rove and suck his balls.

Secondly, to those of you who are carnivores and dont give a shit about animals or environmental policy go suck on your SUV's tailpipe.

Lastly, to those primadona vegans, who lord it over everyone, live your own life BY EXAMPLE and stop the preaching.

Ok, with that out of the way. I have been a vegetarian for 20 years with increased health, food variety and a good conscience. HOWEVER, much of humankind has eaten an omnivore diet for millenia. It is not so much about eating meat, but how the animals are raised, killed and the environmental impact their production incurs.

This issue is not really about eating meat, it's about rampant American consumerism and multinational militaristic corporate fascism. Those that speak of eating ethically, namely local, organic and free range, really have it nailed. This does apply to meat and vegetables. It's about individuals and communities taking control of their environment, sustinence and inevitably health.

America's problems lie in the fact that we are not a member of the world community presently, we are attempting to be it's dictator, using our military might, and the World Bank Free Trade BS to force other govt's to submit.

We do not need preachy vegies telling folks not to eat meat, that will never work. What we NEED is to remove the multinationals from the equation, and start growing our own food, raising our own animals and CONSUMING LESS. I'd hazard to guess that the average American Family consumes at least 3x more goods and services than they actually need, and are 30%+ overweight. Lets dump the credit cards, save more and live for the future instead of always in the hear and now.

Most people are happy to make changes if they see the error of their ways and can afford it. Consumers can force ALL produce to become organic, and meat to be organic fed in the US and other countries by not buying it otherwise. As more consumers demand it, the producers will make it and the prices will come down.

Give thanx to the Spirits of all food you eat (animal or vegetable), the air you breathe, the earth you walk on, and culturally we'll begin to move in a more sustainable direction.
We do not live in a vacuum, our quality of life depends upon these things.

Frankly i'm tired of our Corporatist Fascist Overlords and their tv-based propoganda of rampant consumerism.

America has a lot of influence around the world, lets take a lead role in these issues, instead of being dragged kicking and screaming to the table.

where are your credentials Kathy
Posted by: profoflitandtrout on Mar 14, 2007 10:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As an academic (take your shots) who teaches composition and rhetoric, I have grown weary of my students uitilizing non-peer reviewed sources as evidence (Wikipedia tops the list, but cause-related/special interest websites and blogs come next). This is, I believe, the fourth instalment from Freston on vegetarianism on Alternet. Like so much "reporting" and blogging, it is based not on research but interpretations of research by someone who is looking for quotes that support their cause without checking the sources and contrary research/opinions. This article (and many of the posts in reply) is filled with several non-sequitors and spurious claims about human evolution and the human animal. Here I list but a few examples:

-the claim in the initial para. that eating meat causes global warming is a non-sequitor: the livestock sector is definitely a large factor, but it does not follow that eating meat that is hunted or raised on smaller, sustainable scales participates in such a sector.

- that "something" arachidonic acid is an essential omega-6 fatty acid that mammals need. This doesn't mean one should be gluttonous in consuming poly-unsaturated fats, but that we need them as a biological imperative

-do fats really slow you down? As a mountaineer and trail-worker, protein has been a savior. This is especially true of the smoked salmon we have made from the salmon we harvest on our days off. Even the former vegan co-leader I worked with noticed the difference in energy. What about over-indulgence and a sedentary life?

-Is progressivism really about "telling" people to "stop-doing harmful things." This makes it sound like a patriarchal anti-libertarianism. Born and raised Wisconsin progressive ala Lafollete who, as the leader of the Progressive party fought for worker's comp, woman's suffrage, direct elections, progressive taxation, etc. Certainly, some of these issues can be interpreted as telling people to stop doing harmful things but are probably better understood as attempts to reign in upper class hegemony.

-"If we are to continue evolving, physically, emotionally, and spiritually..." Ah yes, the world made self-conscious by human beings. I've heard this too much in regard to Freston's articles and form those self-help New Agers like Weil. They always render evolution as a choice, which is curious in its vagueness, if not biologically ignorant. We have not physically evolve for at least 100,000+ years because there is not a requisite selective pressure (viz. sexual selection). Only a Lamarkian would believe otherwise-- attributes acquired by an individual in a lifetime are not passed on to offspring. Are we more emotionally and spiritually progressive than all previous traditions/cultures?

-the essay by Dr. Milton Mills utilizes the same illicit logic about biology as so much a vegetarian advocacy: that since we are more similar to herbivores than carnivores, then we must be the former. Come on, what about comparisons with the various omnivorous species, especially primates. Chimps fit this bill, and we are certainly biologically more similar to them than to mammalian ruminants.

-the might makes right law of the jungle is bullshit. It never existed so we don't need to progress away from it. This tends to equate meat-eating with brutality, that Pleistocene hominids ignorant of the complex negotiations that participated in and were thus cruel.

And now, a vicious, speculative ad hominem by an environmental activist from out in the Rockies regarding the suspicion that Freston is an unreliable source: On Freston's own website which tauts her many celebrity appearances as a self-help guru, she features her full-body image on the cover of "Hamptons" magazine. The Hamptons, huh? Oh, and is that a nose-job? I may not be an Inuit, but I am also not one of the Long Island elite.

» Great repsonse Posted by: Phenix
TO ALL THE WORKED-UP NEGATIVE POSTERS:
Posted by: kevred on Mar 14, 2007 10:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just chill out a little, alright? A few points:

1) This article is an opinion piece. It's not a classroom, it's not a church, it's not an instruction manual for your life. It's someone posing a challenging question, with an immediate mechanism for feedback to boot--that's a lot less of a one-way communication than you get in most places.

The writer's not making you do anything, or saying you have to live one specific way--she's telling you what she thinks about these issues, in response to concerns her friends have. She's posing questions and providing examples. She's being intellectually provocative. That's what writers do.

2) It's a very thoughtfully written piece. With all the potential for demogoguery and propaganda, it's obvious how much effort the writer took to be gentler and more balanced than she could have been.

That doesn't mean you have to agree with it at all, but it means that you should be civil. Disagree with every point she makes, but don't hide behind this online anonymity to hurl insults, be rude and vulgar, and act like you've somehow been deeply hurt or offended by someone having a different opinion than you. That's stupid and childish and pathetic.

What I see in all these negative posts are two things, mainly: some are obviously desperate people who don't like being challenged, and who don't have any interest in questioning themselves. Others seem to be long-time champions of dearly-held ideals who are to the point of desperation that they're being ignored by the world at large--a stressful state that I get into myself at times.

But regardless--anyone who is thoughtful can read this article and disagree with it in a thoughtful way. You can believe she's all wrong and still use it as an opportunity to question yourself. If you can't do that, then don't blame the author or the site, don't point to some intangible "agenda" on anyone's part, and don't excuse yourself--you're the one with the problem.

So disagree away, but grow the hell up. You're making all your own ideas look bad by being such whining brats. The best way to counter an idea you disagree with is to present a better one--not tear town and slander the other person. Leave that to the politicians.

» RE: TO ALL THE WORKED-UP NEGATIVE POSTERS: Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: TO ALL THE WORKED-UP NEGATIVE POSTERS: Posted by: profoflitandtrout
Too many carnivours, too much oil
Posted by: wallart2006 on Mar 14, 2007 10:56 AM   
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There was a time not long ago, when Americans could eat all the meat they wished, and the animals were treated humanely. The problem is that a) our standard of living has risen greatly, meaning the average person eats more meat for less money than before, and b) there is a great deal more of us who want to eat meat.

We live in a "free" market, capitalist, oil-subsidized economy. The farming industry is given specific tax-funded subsidies to produce greater amounts of certain foods. The food industry is in the largest two or three industries in the country. Like the oil-subsidized transportation industry, the necessary changes in the food world are not going to be made any time soon.

As for myself: when I am confident that I can live on vegetables just as conveniently and cheaply and healthily and satisfyingly as I can by eating meat, I'm not going to be the one to invent a new lifestyle for myself. I don't have the time, energy or money for it.

--Dan

Enough!!!
Posted by: dbatterman on Mar 14, 2007 10:56 AM   
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RFrancis above said it best. I am sick of being preached to about how to be a good "Progressive." Especially with the hallmark "slackster-vism" solutions like eating veggies, or buying local, or making sure to use the correct "terminology" for people or things. While I am not saying that these are valid choices in one's life, we are living in a time of great change, a time when our government is morphing from Republic into Authoritarianism, and it seems that all the labeled "Progressives" want to do is talk about how their vegetarian diet is making the world a better place, or how they're developing "netroots" for their favorite cause of the week. There should be millions in the streets, demanding changes in the very fabric of our government, causing the high and mighty in their positions of power to shake in their safe little environs, and instead we're all content to sit, stare at our monitors, and assuage our guilt by cutting out cows from our menu.
Telling folks that they have to conform to some sort of code of behavior to be good little followers is no worse than the far right talking heads. We need more freedom of thought in this country, not more sociologically enforced rules.

» not my point...but... Posted by: dbatterman
» Good point. Posted by: kevred
pre-processing = global warming, too
Posted by: aethr on Mar 14, 2007 11:06 AM   
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Humans can't digest grains without pre-processing. Legumes that aren't pre-processed can make humans sick. If you remove grains and legumes it isn't possible to get adequate protein and vitamins in a vegetarian diet. Pre-processing uses industrial processes that in turn contribute to global warming.

Grains and legumes have also been linked to immune and neurological diseases. There is reason to believe that lack of fish in the diet leads to increases in mental illness. A vegetarian diet is simply not a healthy diet.

One of the problems with methane production in cattle is the use of grain as a primary food for cattle. Cows are grass eaters. Changing cattle diets back to a natural grass diet results in significant reductions in methane. Similar things happen to humans on a healthy, natural diet that includes meat.

Anyone who chooses their diet for reasons other than nutrition and health is just plain stupid. In a human diet some meat is healthy, grains and legumes are not, for the species as a whole. But if you're really concerned about global warming, stop eating processed foods. Go ahead and build a diet around raw, unprocessed grains and legumes.

Sounds like Fox News for Veggi-Heads
Posted by: Siegelami on Mar 14, 2007 11:12 AM   
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This article is a typically one-sided argument made by vegitarians for why their lifestyle choice is better than that of the responsible meat eating public. I cook meat professionaly. It is how I support myself and also my passion in life. I take issue with the accusation that I cannot be progressively midned while eating meat. What enraged me more than the wholely inaccurate arguments laid out in this article is that such eggregious propaganda could find it's way onto a progressive web-site. The author chides meat eaters for not being progressive enough, yet writes in a style remenicent of only the worst right-wing conservative pundits (and some of the more boisterous left-wing pundits, to be fair). The mere suggestion that all meat animals are raised in a corporate/factory setting is flat-out wrong, and although not specifically stated, there is a suggestion that even farmers who adhere to stirct policies of sustainable production (a sector of the market growing more rapidly than vegi-terrorists want to admit) should be left in the lurch. The author suggests that a massive switch to a veggi-based diet would harm no one. I think the cattle ranchers I purchase my beef from who let their cows freely graze in an open field would beg to differ. I will be first in line to protest the abhorent practices of factory farming. Meat from the hormone laden, mistreated mutant animal has no place in my kitchen or the plate of my guests. But to think that vegetables are not factory farmed is naive, and to publish that thought is irresponsible. Furthermore, the suggestion that our bodies are, "not meant to consume meat," is laughable. That premise fails completely to account for the billions of people who eat meat regularly and live long, healthy lives. I could go on for hours about this, but then I would be no better than the Hezbollah-like author of the above propaganda. I respect the choice of any vegetarian so long as they have sound reasons and principles that they believe in. Come to myh table and I will cook you the most delicious, meat-free meal I can muster up. I have no tolerance, however, for people who bend the truth or flat out lie to prove a point. I have to go now and get ready for work, where I will most definitely cook the flesh of locally raised livestock, and probbly make sausage from two different kinds of animals farmed by people I know and respect for the sustainable work they do and the passion they have for their craft.

Siegelami

P.S. Fruits and vegetables are just as much living as animals. We are all made up of the same cellular building blocks, and many plants do exhibit life functions that illustrate feelings and inteligence. Just because plants don't scream, doesn't mean they do not feel pain. If you eat plants, you are a killer too! Get off your soap-box...

Vegans Rule!
Posted by: Darrell Kern on Mar 14, 2007 11:15 AM   
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My partner and I are slowly reducing meat intake from our diets. Weaning off it is far better than going cold turkey (excuse the pun). A diet lacking in meats is humane and definately the way to go in being progressive.

Our cut off date is April 15th. After this date we will not serve anything with a face for dinner.

If it has a positive impact on the environment, then that's awesome. The spiritual impact for us will be the major benefit.

Vegetarianism and veganism is the way to go!
Posted by: lauraf on Mar 14, 2007 11:45 AM   
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Kathy Freston's article has a wealth of information in it, and I am pleased to see all the positive feedback and comments. She addresses all the issues that meat eaters use in defending their dining choices. I have been vegan for 11 years, I am healthy, and I have a clear conscience knowing that no animals were harmed for my dining pleasure. There is nothing wrong with being informed about alternative choices. Life is all about change. And giving up animal products is a very positive change, for your health, for the planet, and most important, for the animals.

Self-centred Self-righteous Opinion Piece
Posted by: zoomorph on Mar 14, 2007 11:56 AM   
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I must state that this piece has shown the obvious self-centeredness of western civilization - this chicky obviously considers herself to be the be-all and end-all of rational discussion.

I am First Nations. I live in your so-called "progressive" society - a culture foreign to me, that I'm learning to survive in. Eating meat is part of my culture, but that's not ok, simply because I live in this "progressive" society.

That's pure unadulterated crap. You think it's so easy to eat? To change your diet? Guess again. I'd actually give this chicky the time of day if she made any sense whatsoever. Open your eyes and look around. Your country can't even feed all it's own people. People starving, malnourished, dying from lack of food... but "oh! you should be a vegetarian! Oh, you aren't progressive if you eat meat..." Yeah, ok. Progressive, but dead - because, TA DA!, no food.

All this opinion piece pointed out to me is that even so-called "progressives" can't see beyond their noses. I'd think the issue is more "make sure everybody can eat" before preaching about the evils of meat consumption. Get your head outta the sand, chicky. All this pointed out is that as you consider yourself a progressive (simply because you don't eat meat? Hillarious!) then is it logical that I consider all progressives as self-centered, self-righteous, near-sighted fools?

Hmm. The evils of assumptions. Don't worry, I already consider the author an ass, and know that some readers of this post will consider me as such as well. Oh well. Go back to your milky-vanilla-cookie-cutter lives. Don't look past the boarders of your comfy homes, what you see you won't like.

A Vegan--NOT!
Posted by: ro on Mar 14, 2007 11:58 AM   
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Listen up, all of you vegans who would have me become one of you for my health. I tried that route. It did not work for me. In the past 18 months, I have lost 170 pounds, reduced my cholesterol to 170, my blood pressure to 110/65, my triglycerides to 50, my hemoglobin A1C to 4.7, and I did it by eating mostly MEAT! Yes, you heard me--MEAT! Always meat and protein first including dairy and plenty of full-fat milk, cheese, butter, followed by green and leafies, berries and melon in limited quantities and no carbohydrates at all beyond those found in the green veggies, fruit and dairy. My primary physician is astounded at the state of my health (which is excellent). He has been over me with a fine tooth comb trying to prove otherwise and cannot find any little thing wrong with me. I have been able to reduce my diabetic medications to practically nothing and he thinks that in twenty more pounds the last of them will be gone. My blood pressure meds are history. I run three miles a day, a thing that would have been impossible when I weighed 340 and I came within two weeks of the gastric bypass on two occasions but due to various circumstances was unable to have it done. (Thanks be to God!) If I even go near a whole grain, and I have at friends of family tables for holidays or visits, I put on pounds that have to be dieted back off when I return home, so I expect to stay on this regimen for the rest of what I expect to be my very long life. My physician has decided that one size does not fit all--even in the realm of what constitutes a healthy diet. What might be healthy for you (heavy with carbs and vegetables) is not for me.

» RE: A Vegan--NOT! Posted by: aethr
» RE: A Vegan--NOT! Posted by: ro
Mutually exclusive terms, oh irony, oh laughter.
Posted by: dearOread on Mar 14, 2007 12:16 PM   
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"libertarian socialist"...? Oh. Ha. Ha. Ohho. That is a good one.
This post makes me realize more and more why I've abandoned this pit of leftist fundies and ran to Ms Huffington's place and reason.com. Ferzombiejesus' sake, people. Get a grip, get a hobby.

» No kidding, I agree 100%! Posted by: Setnakt
Save the Planet and Eat Healthy too!
Posted by: brewjaz on Mar 14, 2007 12:35 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A University of Chicago study put the numbers to substantiate the natural law, which says that when you eat lower on the food chain, less energy is wasted, and vice versa.
The energy, specifically fossil fuels, that is needed to support the standard American diet, which consists of 6 to 9 billion animals annually, produces a significant amount of greenhouse gases.
The average American diet requires an extra ton and a half of carbon dioxide equivilent, in the form of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases, compared with a strictly vegetarian diet.
In 2002, energy used for food production accounted for 17 percent of all fossil fuels used in the U.S. And the burning of these fossils emmited three quarters of a ton of carbon dioxide per person.
And farm animal production, i.e. gas from animals, and their feces, produces large amounts of methane and nitrous oxide.
So when you replace your hamburger, ham and cheese and a glass of cow’s milk, with a salad, you are doing more than leaving your car home and walking to the grocery store.
With so many vegetarian and vegan options available in restaurants nowadays (or just ask to modify a meal if there are none), it is easy to eat great plant based foods Many are found at local grocery stores too.
You’ll not only be saving the planet, you will also be eating much healthier.

Ya know...
Posted by: jnutt on Mar 14, 2007 12:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wasn't even going to post this after seeing the INSANE amount of comments posted on a topic is petty as this... but I am going to do it anyways.

I AM A MEAT EATER.. Always have been.. Hold on.. you don't know where I am going with this...

I have veggie friends... personally I can't stand the taste of 99% of veggies I have eaten.. ya I know, grow up me.

My biggest, and really only, problem with this article is as follows...

What about the COST of being a vegan?

I live near Youngstown, OH. With me still? I know you've heard of the little hell hole comprised almost entirely of run down houses. This area lost all its beloved steel mills and since the 1950's has lost half of it's residents. That means we poor. Mmk?

So back to my point, yes I had/have a point.

How the hell am I supposed to be able to afford a veggie only diet? I do enjoy meat, yes... but I don't agree with the way they are treated, nor do I condone their effect on the environment.. but I am picky as all hell and most of the things I would consider eating are organic AND ungodly expensive... So what now? Have you tried feeding a family of 5 an all vegan diet in the Youngstown, OH area? Our prices for the goods are just as high, if not higher, than yours... we only have maybe 3 sources for these goods (i.e. Giant Eagle (ugh), and around two health stores).. so what am I supposed to do? That is what I want to know... I want to know what the hell I am supposed to do. I can't afford it... I like to EAT.. I don't care what I eat.. but I want food all the time. How am I to afford eating the way I want on an all vegan diet? I mean really. Have you made $8 an hour recently? Gas prices? Rent? and then all organic or vegan? I want an answer. I also want to know why the hell cost wasn't covered in this article... That is a huge concern for a lot of meat eaters...


K I'm done w/ my rambling.. bye~!~

» RE: Ya know... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Cooking skill Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: Cooking skill Posted by: WitchyNy
Vegetarism = The New Fundamentalism
Posted by: Gravitas on Mar 14, 2007 12:57 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are so many things wrong with this article. As a size acceptance advocate, I really resent you exploiting the phony "obesity crisis" and touting BigPharma's inflated 2/3 of us are "overweight" crap just to get people to conform to YOUR set of values. And that is exactly what the aim of this article is - to force people to conform to your standards. How dare you define what a "progressive" is? You are know different that fundamental Christians who pick and chose who is going to be "saved" based on what is convenient to them. You both have an absolute set of what is "right" and "wrong" that come from nothing more than self-centeredness!
For years I avoided meat mainly because I didn't care for it. But I am eating it more and more simply because of all those self-righteous loud mouths who have the gall to tell me how to live! I am not alone. A friend of mine was hassled by a group of those stringy haired, plain Jane PETA members at Taste of Chicago. He went out and got the biggest order of ribs he could find and ate them right in front of them. No one likes to be told what to do by people who are severely flawed themselves. It is fine to point out why cutting back on meat might be a postive choice, but when you start sounding like Jerry Falwell you have gone too far. I would go out an have a burger right now, but your article made me sick to my stomach!

» RE: Vegetarism = The New Fundamentalism Posted by: profoflitandtrout
WOW! So many carcuss eaters!
Posted by: Aimee on Mar 14, 2007 1:08 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So many angry carcuss eaters!

Well, those of us who are vegetarians should be glad that there are so many who are meat eaters. What if everyone stopped eating meat? The price of non-meat items would go up.

I believe that those who are so upset about the vegetarian issue should just keep on eating meat. Population control.

As for global climate change - well it is too late to stop it. But we should all be very concerned and do our best to curb it by changing our lifestyle. Opps! Change our lifestyle? Another a touchy subject.

Cheers,
Aimee
DataOptions.com

» Can you read? Posted by: Phenix
Vegetarianism is the right choice
Posted by: meow1229meow on Mar 14, 2007 1:13 PM   
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Of course vegetarianism is environmental and environmental folks should consider vegetarianism. Every little thing we can do to help keep the earth healthy is important; from using CFL lightbulbs to changing our diet.

The way animals are raised, kept, and slaughtered is not only cruel and inhumane, but unhealthy. Pregnant pigs are kept in crates so small they can not even turn around or stretch their limbs. Calves are ripped away from their mother at hours old to be kept in crates where they are chained by the neck and kept anemic. Ducks are force fed until their throats bleeds and their stomach explodes. Chickens crammed by the dozens into small, wire cages where they would basically cannabalize each other had it not been for the fact that they have their beaks seared off.

This is not your picturesque farm that suppports small families who rely on the earth for their livelihood. These are huge corporations making billions of dollars torturing animals. I want no part of it and the fact that it is beneficial to the environment as well only confirms that I am making the right choice.

Get off your high horse
Posted by: emgscot51 on Mar 14, 2007 1:15 PM   
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I'm a vegetarian and I wish everyone else was. But attacking people and telling them they can't be progressives because they eat meat is just plain stupid. And mean. I think I'm starting to understand the term "liberal elite".
Maybe the author should try to care as much about humans as she does about animals. I'm sure she doesn't drive a car or otherwise pollute the air but we can't all be that perfect.
I'll settle for imperfect progressives.

» yes! and now google up "telescopic philanthropy" Posted by: emmanuel_goldstein_fights_fake_lefties
I'll turn vegetarian when
Posted by: Fade on Mar 14, 2007 1:50 PM   
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The food doesn't suck.
I'll turn vegetarian when-
You can grow a celery stalk that tastes like beef jerky
Create soy products that taste like yummy, greasy fatty bacon

But until then, I will be a progressive Omnivore. Sorry.
P.S. How do you know the plants aren't screaming bloody murder inside when some farmer takes a scythe to their trunk, spilling their lifejuices to the ground?

Kathy Freston: lexus liberal
Posted by: profoflitandtrout on Mar 14, 2007 1:55 PM   
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Why is someone as unaccredited on dietary issues allowed to publish 4 times in just a few months. Reading Freston's own bio should make Altenet readers suspicious of the source; check out her own website: she is a former (Ford) model (and not a plus-size one, mind you) turned self-help and relationship guru, who finally found love with a corporate executive at MTV. She's pictured on the cover of Hampton's magazine, yes, The Hamptons! Now, this doesn't discredit anything she says, right, because ad hominem arguments are illicit, that is, a person's character, actions, and circumstances should be disregarded.

» RE: profoflitandtrout: strangely angry Posted by: profoflitandtrout
I'll keep this simple
Posted by: gmknobl on Mar 14, 2007 2:11 PM   
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I've never seen a vegetarian diet that was truly balanced. You need some meat to eat properly. I know, it's hard to believe, but no amount of tofu (which I love) or other protein source even with dietary supplements can truly make up for meat in our diet.

Look, I open my mouth and see incisors. You know, those pointy vampire teeth we have. This marks us as meat eaters. Omnivores. Yes, we can survive as vegetarians but until the lion truly sits down with the lamb, I'll be consuming from time to time but doing it as humanely as possible.

Go ahead and disagree if you want but don't say what I'm saying is wrong and immoral. That's just immoral!

ATTN Meat eaters:
Posted by: farmerbob2007 on Mar 14, 2007 2:16 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Watch these clips:
Clip 1

Clip 2

Clip 3

See this movie & I doubt if you will still be able to eat meat.

» I watched them Posted by: AdamG
» POWERFUL Posted by: gellero
» RE: ATTN Meat eaters: Posted by: Darrell Kern
Eating Meat is Good and Sustainable
Posted by: pubwvj on Mar 14, 2007 2:30 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I disagree on the "The case against eating meat: Americans and Europeans eat meat because we want to, not because we have to." A vegetarian, and especially a vegan, diet is not sustainable up in the north country. Yes, you can do it with supplemental pills and foods that are transported long distances but neither of those are sustainable. On the other hand, sheep, cattle, goats, pigs and poultry can all eat foods we can't and graze on low quality pasture that won't produce any crops for us and in turn they'll turn those low quality, to us, forages into high quality protein, lipids and other good wholesome foods. I've been vegetarian several times in my life for various reasons but I would not consider it ever to be a long term sustainable solution.

Don't make the word Progressives a bad word.
Posted by: lamar on Mar 14, 2007 2:49 PM   
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You judge the hell out of people, and you call yourself a progressive? The whole reason people call themselves progressives and not liberals is to distance themselves from freaks like you.

Gory groceries
Posted by: RedWriter on Mar 14, 2007 3:05 PM   
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I've killed chickens, gutted hogs, cut beef. I've been a much maligned factory-farmer whose livestock lived in greater physical comfort and health than the Old Mac Donald-ites could ever imagine. I eat meat, enjoy meat and will continue to do so.
Self righteous priggery will be the doom of progressive politics. When only Republicans can enjoy steak, ale and a good cigar they'll be forever in the majority.

» You missed it Posted by: gellero
Why Are Vegetarians Sometimes Pigeon-holed as Being Extreme?
Posted by: ManipulationNation on Mar 14, 2007 3:14 PM   
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The meat industry does its best to make people feel like if they become vegetarians, they're weird. I think this is a major reason why a lot of people are reluctant to change.

However, I have found that there are some incredibly good reasons to become vegetarian:

1. It's much healthier for individuals to eat fruits and vegetables. There's about as much real debate about this as there is about global warming.

2. Meat-eaters have a much higher incidence of heart disease and cancer, amongst other diseases. Again, there's no real debate anymore on this.

3. About 20% of the world's carbon-based emissions come from the raising, killing, and transporting of animals and their carcasses for people to eat.

4. About ten times as much water is used to produce a pound of beef as to produce a pound of fruits or vegetables.

5. Rainforests, which produce a surprisingly significant amount of the world's oxygen and moderate the world's climate, are being eliminated at a rapid rate to allow more room for cattle to graze and for grains to be grown to feed the cattle.

6. A large percentage of the world's grains are used to feed animals destined for our food supply. This lowers its availability for people, and raises the price of grain for impoverished people in the world. Almost all third world countries are importers of grain.

7. It doesn't feel very good to me to think about eating animals that were tortured and killed so I can avoid eating fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and nuts.

8. It feels good to me to be different and yet feel fully confident that the choices I make are for the right reasons.


A lot of people believe that if we don't eat meat, we can't get enough protein. There is so much written showing that this is not true, including in John Robbins' "Diet for a New America." In fact, there is a lot of evidence showing that eating protein from animal products can actually decrease the calcium in our bones.

In the future, people will ask, "When there was no real reason to eat meat, and so many reasons not to, why did people do it?"

Go Vegan for Life
Posted by: lauraf on Mar 14, 2007 3:17 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Going vegan is good for your health, good for the animals, and good for the environment. I am seeing so many angry, self-righteous comments from meat eaters. It's amazing the need you have to cling to your archaic way of eating. Factory farming has gotten out of hand. It is animal torture, pure and simple. I just don't know how anyone can justify that. Kathy's article lays out the facts so easily and simply. Just because eating meat is a difficult habit to give up, doesn't mean it can't be done. Give it a try. You will feel better for it!

» RE: Go Vegan for Life Posted by: mjabele
Thanks For Highlighting This Issue
Posted by: hschwing on Mar 14, 2007 3:29 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just want to thank Kathy Freston and AlterNet for publishing this article. I'm a healthy, happy vegan, and I'd love for other people to see how fulfilling this lifestyle is!

Not all vegetarians are healthy, and not all meat eaters are fat
Posted by: texshelters on Mar 14, 2007 3:34 PM   
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Why do many progressive vegetarians prostelitize like the far right?

When I was a vegetarian, I was sick, pale and fatigued. It was not the best diet for me. It is for some. Where did you get the fact that all great altheletes are vegetarian? Can you give me a website or book I can read that in. I know many a good athlete that does eat meat.

So, eat healthy for yourself, yes, eat less meat, eat locally, but our teeth tell the story:

we have incisors for meat, and molars for plants.

HUMANS ARE OMNIMORES.

Joe Tex

» totally true. i'm a fat vegan!! Posted by: veggiegrrrl
Pathetic humans and pathetic arguments
Posted by: joshuawelch on Mar 14, 2007 3:40 PM   
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I was raised as self-centered meat eating Republican. Fortunately I was able to get out of my small sheltered town, go to college and expose myself to a diversity of cultures over the past 12 years. From NY to South Carolina and now Oregon. I studied argumentation and debate, communication criticism and persuasion. The infantile empty arguments that people are making to try to justify their violent lifestyle are simply pathetic. Anyone with a basic understanding of what makes an argument and also believes in intellectual honesty, knows and admits that raising animals for food and material good in a nation with our resources is completely immoral and unnecessary. There are mountains of evidence that supports this, which Kathy Freston has outlined quite well. Johns Hopkins Center for a Livable Future has come to the same conclusion as Kathy Freston. Of course what do they know, thi9er only one of the premier health institutions in the history of the world. The people who continue to deny the obvious reflect human’s unique capacity to support the worst of ideas as long as it suits their addictions. We are destroying this planet and participating in mass cruelty every single day. The people that have been exposed to the facts of animal agriculture and continue to fight vehemently in favor of it, like many who have posted negative comments on this article, represent the very worst of human kind. You are pathetic and the world would be much better off with out you. If only these people would start eating each other until they were all gone.

Best choice I've made...but...
Posted by: vangogh69 on Mar 14, 2007 3:40 PM   
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I became a vegetarian a few years ago mostly as a response to my deep loathing and disgust with factory farming. So I choose it, primarily, for ethical reasons. That said, my health overall is now the best its ever been and I regret having waited so long to cut-out meat. Fine, fine, so what???

I'm posting because I'm curious about what is, frankly, the violent and hostile reaction people seem to have towards vegetarians in general. I can't tell you how many times I've been at a dinner, told them I didn't do meat, and gotten the look of horror as if my eyes were bleeding!

From a health perspective, the question need not be why not choose meat but rather, why EVER chose meat? Humans clearly don't need a steady diet of it to live, certainly not in the 21st century. Additionally, cutting down rainforests to make land for cattle is extremely short-sighted as the meat will only live for a few years (if that) while those mighty trees, WHICH HELP MAKE IT SO WE CAN BREATHE ON THIS PLANET (!), will take hundreds of years to grow back, if they can at all (given the effect of greenhouse gases now, the general warming of the planet, and the shifting of oceanic & transcontinental cooling patterns). Sure, we get the beef at the supermarket today, but say, in 1,000 people may not be able to inhabit 50% of the now-liveable Earth due to it being too hot/cold.

I agree with the author that true progressives are so in all things, not just selected topics.

» Are you blind or just... Posted by: Phenix
You are WRONG!
Posted by: wireup on Mar 14, 2007 3:50 PM   
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Why do you keep printing articles like this?

I have responded to a number of such articles on this site. As a former vegetarian - first lacto-ovo and then vegan - for quite a few years, I think I can speak from experience.

Each time I was a vegetarian for a number of years. Did everything right, DIET FOR A SMALL PLANET was my bible. But it didn't work for me. Each time I became even sicker because I needed animal protein.

If you think it makes me happy to know this, you are sorely mistaken. I hate eating animal protein but I have no choice. I feel a hell of a lot better when I eat it. And, as the former owner (for 8 years) of a natural food store, I saw this more times than I can count - people, like me, honestly and sincerely committed to being vegetarians who could NOT be vegetarians.

So, what are we supposed to do? Stop eating?

No. I do the best I can by purchasing organic as much as possible, whether it is protein, fruits, vegetables, whatever. Often it costs a lot more but I'm willing to pay it as long as I have the money because it's the only sensible way to go.

I'm aware that there are strong attempts to water down organic standards. So I am fighting back. I recently moved to a large city where there are ongoing farmers' markets. The first one I went to had a lot of organic food and I intend to keep going and couple this with shopping at the local health food stores.

I'm not going to lay down and die because I can't be a vegetarian. But I AM going to remain committed to supporting sustainable farming and organic farming as much as possible.

If you are fortunate enough to be able to survive as a vegetarian, I envy you. Truly. You stand for me and every other person who would like to do what you do.

Cats and Dogs are NOT vegetarians.
Posted by: wireup on Mar 14, 2007 4:04 PM   
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Someone above raised the question of how to feed cats and dogs if one is a vegetarian.

It is inadvisable to make cats vegetarians. They are NOT. They require the amino acid TAURINE. A deficiency can cause blindness. Of course, you can supplement, but you really need to know what you are doing.

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/catfood.html

I fully sympathize with you. I had cats and dogs when I was a vegetarian. These animals are NOT vegetarians in the wild, they are meateaters. It is not fair to them to force a vegetarian diet on them. Give them a choice and I guarantee you that they will chose meat every time!

Alternet, WHY do you want to kill me?
Posted by: carcinoid112 on Mar 14, 2007 4:19 PM   
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Allowing these morons (and I don't care what their credentials are, if they insist that everyone can be vegetarian/vegan, they're morons) to publish bull crap like this just makes it harder for people to take ANYTHING you publish seriously.

You get a competent medical professional to look over my dietary needs (cancer and other related illnesses) and my allergies and come up with a way I can eat vegetarian, much less vegan. I couldn't even manage lactovegetarian (no ovo- included, I'm allergic to eggs. Oh, yeah, AND soy.)

So, if you GOTTA run articles that promote policies that will kill people, mark them plainly.

SOME PEOPLE CANNOT SUSTAIN LIFE ON A VEGETARIAN OR VEGAN DIET.

There are more of us than you think.

Always exceptions
Posted by: ericao on Mar 14, 2007 4:39 PM   
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I think that most reasonable people who agree with this article will also agree that a vegan/vegetarian diet is not always going to be possible for every person in every situation. People with severe food allergies/health issues/etc. often do not have a choice the same way a starving person in an impoverished nation does not have a choice (as the article addresses).

I don't understand why that point isn't obvious. It's not as though pointing out that exceptions exist proves that the arguments made in the article are bunk. The majority of people in the "developed" world do not have such limited diets and are able to make more choices about what they eat and where it comes from.

I am a vegan, but I know people with serious health issues that limit their appetite and ability to eat at all. Sometimes, the only thing they can stomach is a steak. Do I think they are wrong for eating that steak? No. Would I rather that person die and become malnourished? Obviously not. But, does that person's particular situation have any impact on what I think the vast majority of people should take into account when making dietary choices? Absolutely not.

It's necessary to hear about the minority or individual positions and the challenges they pose, but it's additionally important to keep the big picture in mind when discussing these kinds of issues. There shouldn't be a gag order on topics just because there are exceptions to the rule.

You call yourself a progressive - BUT YOU'RE STILL MAKING BABIES?
Posted by: tomkara on Mar 14, 2007 4:49 PM   
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I agree that the author is entitled to express her views, and her arguments are often cogent. However, the title of this piece suggests those who eat meat have no right to be considered "progressive" which is an aggressive, judgmental and exclusionary stance. I have begotten no children, and I firmly believe that excessive human breeding is at the root of virtually all environmental degradation. The planet is limited in size, ergo, logically, there must be a limit to the number of people it can sustain. I therfore do not look favorably on those making more babies, but I am not going to exclude anyone who believes in equality, social justice, peace, and democracy, from my circle of friends simply because they were unable to contain their biological impulses to reproduce. Taken to its logical extreme, the author, like the Jain sadhus, should carry a broom to avoid harming even an insect that crosses her path, and like Albert Schweitzer, should insist on letting the flies around the dinner table live as God intended. I agree we should all be mindful of treating animals humanely, and with many fewer people on the planet, there would be many fewer food factories of any kind, far less pollution, far less greenhouse emissions. We should also be mindful that in advancing our own agendas that we don't try to force them down other people's throats by insinuating that they have no right to consider themselves "progressive" simply because they don't agree with one particular viewpoint. "Progressive" is a broad term, and should remain so.

So true
Posted by: lavajin on Mar 14, 2007 4:55 PM   
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This is a thorough and insightful article that everyone should read and consider. There is more truth in this article than you'll ever find among the billion dollar advertising campaigns for the animal product industry.

Bravo!

What About Population?
Posted by: Sparks56 on Mar 14, 2007 5:24 PM   
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Not a word, not one, on the primary, the only, problem facing civilization as we know it; population. What we eat, how we make it, what we drive, how we work, how we live, none of these things, no matter what we do, no matter what we change, (even if everybody became a vegen environmentalist,) will change anything unless the number of human beings living on planet Earth is reduced to a number at least half of what it is today.
Eat your beans and soy, drive a hybrid, ride a bike. You'll be healthier and you can feel superior to the rest. But don't kid yourself that you're part of some "solution" that's going to turn the planet into the Garden of Eden, or even slow the current human mad dash to the ecological cliff.
If we progressives want to save the human race from itself, there are two, and only two, issues; birth control and the education/emancipation of women. period. Everything else is irrelavent.
Years ago I saw a bumper sticker that read;
"If your cause does not include population control, it's a lost cause."
Enjoy your bean sprouts.

» Bobvz@cox.net Posted by: Robert Veasey
» bobvz@cox.net Posted by: Robert Veasey
» RE: Bobvz@cox.net Posted by: Sparks56
» bobvz@cox.net Posted by: Robert Veasey
» RE: bobvz@cox.net Posted by: Sparks56
Eating certified organic and humane meat is the BEST WAY.
Posted by: bleppo on Mar 14, 2007 5:32 PM   
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Here's the crux of vegans' and vegetarians' flawed outlook.

Having grown up away from wildlife and farms, vegans subconsciously assume
(1) that animals not killed by humans for food are immortal -- i.e., such animals never die; only humans cause their deaths (i.e., if humans stopped killing them the animals would never die).
OR
(2) that animals not killed by humans for food die of old age, like humans in hospices (therefore, humans cut short the otherwise long lives of animals).

Here’s the reality regarding both of these errors:


(1) all animals die even if humans don't kill them.
AND
(2) animals not killed by humans almost never die of "old age" in the human sense of "old age," meaning not by accident, attack or disease.

Have you ever seen the photos of a young injured moose as it collapsed alone in the wild? Over 3 DAYS, while still ALIVE, crows pecked out its eyes and nibbled elsewhere, only interrupted by some small carnivores, which joined in on the LIVE moose, followed by medium carnivores, which joined in on the LIVING MOOSE, followed by larger carnivore/omnivores, which killed and ate it.
THREE days being slowly devoured alive! And the lifespan of rabbits in the wild? Domestic rabbits live MUCH LONGER than wild ones.

The real questions are not whether to kill and eat animals, but the following:

(1) "What is the quality of life of animals being raise for food?
AND
(2) "How are such animals killed to minimize their suffering?"


A vegan may balk at #2, "The least amount of suffering is not to kill!!!" but that proves my point that such a vegan subconsciously thinks that the animal will live forever if humans don't kill it or that the animal will live a long life in the wild followed by a hospice-like, protected decline and death.

These are blatantly wrong assumptions resulting naturally from growing up in a TV cartoon society where animals are rarely seen dying in nature, whether live or on TV, and aren’t even seen dying on farms.

When confronted with the reality that humans kill animals, the vegan mind fails to make the complete connection that all animals die under different circumstances, some of which are order of magnitudes worse than death by humans. Cartoons fully push this warped view of nature, with anthropomorphic creatures living to ripe old ages in warm tree-cabins with cozy little fires in the fireplace.

I completely agree, however, about the horrid quality of life for animals raise for food.


I buy lots of meat from a local ranch that is certified organic and humane. The animals on this ranch have high-quality lives and are killed in the field quickly and smoothly without terror.

Certified organic and humane is best for humans and animals, considering animals on certified organic and humane farms don't die slowly and agonizingly over a 1-3 day period as they do in the wild. (Carnivores might find privacy for their own deaths, but typically not prey.)

Additionally, many vegans and vegetarians don’t consider the bad effects of farming. Are animals allowed to live on the tens of thousands of acres of cropland? No. Thousands, probably millions, of acres have been taken away from animals.

Furthermore, many farmers cruelly kill animals that “intrude” on their crops. For example, potato farmers incensed at deer eating their crops shoot them in the stomach with small-bore rifles so the deer run off and die away from crop.

Think about THAT the next time you eat a potato! And think of all the animals not allowed to live on the cropland you love so much.

How can a progressive be a vegetarian or vegan? Progressives are supposed to be thinkers.

bobvz@cox.net
Posted by: Robert Veasey on Mar 14, 2007 5:35 PM   
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Yep. Hang that chicken upside down. Then take it down and cutt off its head and let it run around awhile (dumb bird doesn't know any better) then drain the blood, de-feather and clean...cut out those gizzards. Now it's ready for cooking. Low in cholesterol... high in protein....and what's most important...it tastes good!

Don't try to sell your self-inflicted nonsense to Americans. Americans know better. They like theirs roasted, fried, boiled, baked - whatever.

Better to eat meat than the emaciated look of the liberal progressive self-deprived whiners.

Mmmmmm
Posted by: opeluboy on Mar 14, 2007 5:37 PM   
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Some of the unhealthiest people I know are vegetarians, and I know plenty here in Hawaii. Some are also overweight. Simply being vegetarian is not a guarantee of health.

It is also a fact that some people do not do well on purely plant protein. I had a young man working for me who was a vegetarian who became quite ill. Our local homeopath had him start eating some lean meat and he is now able to do his yoga handstands again.

Tonight, parmesan stuffed chicken breasts and fresh green beans from my garden. Mmmmmmm.

You Call Yourself a Progressive, but...
Posted by: jaby on Mar 14, 2007 6:08 PM   
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you still feel the need to be a condescending ass? Contact the editors at AlterNet! If you can (kinda) put together a sentence, they very well might have an assignment for you!

YOU ARE WHAT YOU EAT
Posted by: zatar on Mar 14, 2007 6:13 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Taking action no longer eating fish or chicken bloody depravity humanity's abuse of animals who do feel pain this is not right cut youself with the a slaughtering knife feel like its not fun eating from a plate forgetting how you hate to know the truth chew chew on unhealthy creatures sad fate injected with hormones cancer and fear can you not hear their helpless screams and cries poke your own eyes with this truth every time you chew a helpless creature in your mouth its the communal soul that shouts out whole love to your blind eyes that does not see this sick sick unhumanity so hungry to be complete you don't have to eat meat or close your mind's eye to the pain that stains your soul of the norm you can see eating meat is wrong torturing and killing helpless spirits chew chew chew slaughtered true you who are wearing new fur and leather boots yes man can kill for sport and food chew chew chew are you still blind to admit its not cool shit zillions of farm animals executions its a tortured hellish life that is not right its sick sick sick ya got to admit its not compassionate so complete evolution peek seek a veggie way of life right in me free eyes open to sanity stop eating meat ending your inner slaughter for more responsiblity to the suffering creatures mother earth's souls can be saved its your choice for sure this time your inner mind must find foods to eat that are not meat eyes closed no longer blind to sin that's a fact eating meat must come to an end don't be a chicken anymore veggie purefor sure boom
By ZATAR

Think about it...
Posted by: Aufklaerung_Baboon on Mar 14, 2007 7:30 PM   
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"Why, then, are so many progressives still clinging to their chicken nuggets?"

Because they taste a bajillion times better and provide MUCH more nutrition than celery and carrots.

veggies win
Posted by: solrev on Mar 14, 2007 8:14 PM   
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You veggies are going to get your way. The day will come when the population of the planet will be so great, plants will be the only way to feed the masses. In fact we are already there we just have not taken the time to eliminate hunger. Food will become something one consumes not something one likes.

» no they won't Posted by: AdamG
sex and vegetarianism
Posted by: EasterBunny on Mar 14, 2007 8:40 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
maybe the average man needs more protein than the average woman. i have noticed that ~80% of the (non -Indian) vegetarians i know are women.

Alrighty veganazi's, the gloves are off!
Posted by: AdamG on Mar 14, 2007 8:41 PM   
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No offense to some of the more sensible vegans I've chatted with like veggiegrrrl. With that out of the way.

This atricle has pushed the big button. Kathy and the rest of her ilk are the left's equivalent of the NeoCons. I am so full of your self aggrandising bullshit I want to vomit.

Yes, factory farming is bad. Yes, the meat "industry" is bad but tell me one "industry" that isn't bad.

I dare any of you to tell my how I, or any one else, who raises livestock in an appropriate way is negative. My animals (sheep and poultry) are fed organic food, rotationally pastured, their manure is composted, yadda yadda. My animals live better then 95% of the planets human population and I provide that life for them. Fuck yes they owe me something. How many of you vegans out their can say that they grow their own food or help support directly the person who does?

Y'all are more preachy and judgemental then the monks from the Buddhist monastary up the road from my. I am over hearing all your shit. When it really comes down to it, you cannot stop me from living how I want to live.

So which of you wants to be the first to butt heads? And no I don't want to hear from you farmerbob2007, josh welch, mmissinglink, pearl, assholes.

» thank you Posted by: Phenix
» RE: thank you Posted by: AdamG
» hi adam! from veggiegrrrl! Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» Buddhist Temple Posted by: Phenix
» whats happenin' Posted by: AdamG
» Hi Adam! Posted by: farmerbob2007
Animals are not equal to humans? hahahah...
Posted by: blitzmesser on Mar 14, 2007 9:09 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Humans are considered to be the ultimate animals, the highest achievement of creation.
(Another joke of our 'creator'?)
Have a look around, and you will have to agree with me. Humans are created in god's image.
So, unless you talk about creation, the question No. 4 encourages nothing but wishful thinking.

The human animal has its priorities wrong.
His ability to think and make tools is applied to the wrong tasks.

Should I turn my cat and dog into 'progressives', too?
Posted by: logansafi on Mar 14, 2007 9:35 PM   
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It is true that our American diet is horriblly overloaded with meats, instead of plant matter and fungi. But this fetish about what we eat is hiding itself in a mask of environmentalism these days. We are now all urged to colonicly purge ourselves of reactionary toxins or have a finger pointed at us by the self righteous. You are destroying nature by not eating right, Meat Eater!

This is a bunch of baloney. The planetary environmetn is not going to be saved by turning the entire world of humankind ,all, one by one, into vegetarians. In fact, the hot air being blown out asses by vegetarians on this issue, is a hundred times more causative of global warming than them dang cows they are obsessed with. Oh, I'm sorry, I meant chicken nuggets they are obsessed with.

What are we supposed to do now? Shoot all the dogs and cats to save the planet? Or should we put them on vegetarian diets, too? Or how about this? We should all be changing to vegetarian diets, but if we can't resist a chcken nugget or fish stick, then we can eat a can of cat or dog food when we re-addict to meat. We can become petcanno-vegetarians, say? That would be better than those chicken nugget eaters at least. We tried, but had to eat the cat's tuna becausew we're weak.

If we kill our pets to keep them from eating more meat, can we be allowed to at least eat the pets when they're dead, to be ecologically more sound? After all, a dead animal that we have ecologically dispatched, should at least not be made into total waste. We should maybe make a blanket or coat and eat the flesh of these politically incorrect 'companions' of ours. So as they would not go to total waste. We'd be being very progressive then. Efficiency is now the mark of progressives, as we shall have the dog trains running on time, ecologically speaking.

Actually, all vegans should be allowed to kill and eat all meat eaters, dogs, cats, and humans included. To save the planet. After all us reactionary meat eaters are gone, only vegetables and fruits will continue to be at risk, and the vegetable eating animals left can party once again. What balance we will have then, as progressive thought will rule this new age of Eden!

Pass me the carrots, Please. I'm a Progressive now.

Don't tell me what to do
Posted by: deejayvee on Mar 14, 2007 9:47 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sorry, but this annoyed me. Stick your "progressives should" where the sun doesn't shine. I have my own morals, ethics and philosophy and if it doesn't match yours too freakin' bad!

HOW TO STOP ALTERNET FROM POSTING THIS SHIT
Posted by: jwc on Mar 14, 2007 9:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
EMAIL EMAIL EMAIL!!!

there is a contact link in the "about" section of the site.

Send Alternet an email! Here are some possible things to point out since the editors still don't get it:

-The "progressive" label is not limited to Vegetarians!
-Not all vegetarians are CRAZY like the author of this most recent article
-Alternate is starting to sound as radical as the neo-cons
-Some of Alternet's readers ARE ACTUALLY ABLE TO SPOT LOGICAL FALLICES and are tired of finding them in supposed "news" articles

Body Wisdom
Posted by: wordwoman on Mar 14, 2007 10:37 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My ancestors in the far north subsisted for centuries on codfish, seabird eggs and--yes--whale. But for the reasons in this article and many others, I became a vegetarian and remained so for many years. Philosophically, politically, and economically, it is the way to go, and to all for whom vegetarianism works: more power to you. However, after losing my health to what I believe are unrelated causes, on a doctor's advice I eventually returned to an occasional meal of meat. It was hard to cede the lifestyle (and the high moral ground that came with it), but it is even harder to live at odds with the sacred gift that is your temple, your time-and-space-ship, and your irreplaceable instrument of being. I am sorry for all the ways in which my lifestyle exacts an unfair share of earth's finite resources (those of us reading this on a computer screen know what I mean) and I continue to seek balance. In closing, I would note that violence takes many forms and redemption is usually gradual. May we all find our path.

Very good points: in our hearts, we know veg is better
Posted by: yehadut on Mar 14, 2007 11:18 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article brings up a lot of thoughtful points. We do make a lot of excuses for eating meat just because we like it and we're used to it. But if you look at the massive environmental devastation and the deplorable treatment of animals on factory farms, in our hearts we have to know there's no way to justify it. We try not to think about it, and a lot of people have reacted very defensively, which is really telling about the insecurities of their own conscience. I share these mixed feelings, but I realize that going vegetarian is the better way, and that's what I'll strive for. Thanks for the article.

Vegetarians are F***ING TASTY!
Posted by: Eat Politicians on Mar 15, 2007 1:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm just saying....anemic as they may be they are still tasty...

Lack of choices: my beef
Posted by: spencerh on Mar 15, 2007 1:33 AM   
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I've been a vegetarian for 15 years, and one of the problems I see is lack of choices on menus. I only eat out/order in, so people who cook for themselves don't have this problem, but for those of us who don't cook, it is. You look at a menu and see the following:

- Turkey
- Beef
- Chicken
- Pork
- Vegetable

One spot for vegetable. Just one. Of course it reflects what sells, but it seems like this is something that hurts any sort of move to vegetarianism. This is something I truly wish would change. I live in NYC and you *still* have to go out of your way to find good vegetarian places.

Another helpful thing? Mock meat. I've taken meat eaters out to places that serve this, and they were usually amazed (I know I was after I first became a vegetarian), so the taste thing is solvable.

» RE: Lack of choices: my beef Posted by: Jarmadi
Calm down, we all know she's not the boss of you
Posted by: dimmuborgirly on Mar 15, 2007 2:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A lot of posts are about this journalist "telling you what you can't put in your mouth", and overall the famous 2nd grade, "you're not the boss of me" argument. This journalist is presenting facts. But here in America, you don't have to do what she says and I promise a vegan won't come set your house on fire. You can choose to listen to the truth or not. In fact you could have stopped reading the article all together and continued to eat things that are terrible for you, the environment and horribly cruel. Freedom!....do be completely ignorant!

True Progressive
Posted by: moflard on Mar 15, 2007 4:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Be a true progressive - EAT SOYLENT GREEN!!

» RE: True Progressive Posted by: Mr. Heathen
Just shot a wild rabbit...
Posted by: Blade on Mar 15, 2007 6:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and ate it, too. Was tasty. And I was very hungry. Hard to keep a job, Mexicans keep taking the work. Of course, I am just a dumb carpenter in Arkansas training Mexicans to eventually take the work. Got tired of eating beans, can't afford store bought food. Posting this from library... Grape hyacinths are coming up in the yard, spring is coming, but a long time before garden produces anything. My fishing pole, a box trap, and my .22 rifle will feed me, though. Good to have that rabbit for breakfast.

» RE: Just shot a wild rabbit... Posted by: sonyabowman
Humans are Carnivores!
Posted by: TWilliams on Mar 15, 2007 8:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we are to look at ourselves as one with nature I think it is perfectly fine to eat meat. We are genetically designed to be carnivores!

» Re: Humans are Carnivores! Posted by: ericao
Assumptions are false.
Posted by: driftwolf on Mar 15, 2007 8:53 AM   
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The assumption in this article is that if you eat meat in a "developed" part of the world, then that meat has come from a factory farm. The author needs her facts checked.

One wonders if the author has heard of organic micro-farming? I know exactly where the beef, pork and chicken I eat has been, from calf or chick to meat on my plate. I know the farmers raising these animals. I know what these animals are eating. They graze. They are fed hay from neighboring fields. They aren't being fed reprocessed brains from the abattoirs. Also, the raising goes on year-round. Locally. Within 100km of my home, which reduces the overall footprint of my meal.

Meanwhile, the vegetables that I'm being asked to eat exclusively are mostly grown on factory farms, using tremendous quantities of pesticides and farming techniques that only work because of continued application of artificial fertilizer. To call it raping the land is a misnomer. When these factory farms are done, nothing will grow on that land unless you add more fertilizer. I can't get my veg locally, because we have something called "winter" here that creates these things called "growing seasons". So I have to get imported vegetables. Imported from places like Mexico, California and the far East. Imported at great cost in petrol, and requiring the building of ever more roads, parking lots, and the rest of the infrastructure of a false economy. Yes, I unfortunately still use some of these vegetables, because I have to to stay healthy. Yes, I do shop at my local organic farm when they have crops growing, and I do buy my vegetables grown within 100km when possible. But I can't do that year round. Perhaps the author hadn't thought of that?

So, what was that again about meat being always bad, and vegetables being always good? Maybe the author should get off her high horse and start to look at the realities of farming, and at the real costs of getting fresh vegetables year round into places that can't grow them locally. Meanwhile, I'm off to breakfast.

Grattitudogaliscious Angel
Posted by: sonyabowman on Mar 15, 2007 9:06 AM   
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It's rare to read something about vegetarianism that is so balanced! I'll be sending it to all my omnivore friends, you never know who will make this big, beautiful decision on the basis of what they read today . . .

much love to all!

THE LIBERALS ON ALTERNET ARE PROFOUNDLY UGLY
Posted by: anniedine on Mar 15, 2007 9:06 AM   
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Alternet will no doubt do an anthology about this thread as they always do when it gets this heated and lengthy.

And what they (and any of the rest of the reading population) can see is a range of their readers behaving in the most ugly, disgusting, bizarre ways possible because someone called them on their hypocrisy in eating meat.

It's no better here right now than if Alternet had paid a bunch of freepers to come over here and trash the author. The hysteria is pathetic and disturbing – just scan the answers to this article.

The author has facts to back up what she's saying and the exact same things have been said by all kinds of people for many, many years. That doesn't stop these creepy, freaky, hateful commenters from making up all kinds of nonsense in reply or simply just being obnoxious and arrogant.

I haven't seen this kind of childish, whiny, nasty reaction to vegetarian arguments since I was personally attacked by the angry frat boys as I sat at an information table in college 25 years ago. They spit on us, they yelled, they tried to physically intimidate us – they were hateful, just as the commenters here have been.

It's no wonder the world is going to hell – just look at what the supposed "left" is capable of saying and doing when challenged to think about their personal choices. It's disgusting.

» Huh? Most of them were FUNNY, not hateful Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» Scroll up Posted by: ericao
The dumbest argument for not going vegetarian ever
Posted by: Leischa on Mar 15, 2007 10:27 AM   
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"But what about the farm animals?" some one once asked me.

Eh?

" If everyone went veggie, all the farm animals would die out because there'd be no one to look after them, and there'd be no cute lambs in spring."

So if we love animals, we should keep eating them.

What's your dumbest excuse ever?

You call yourself a progressive and...
Posted by: gretavo on Mar 15, 2007 10:50 AM   
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you still believe that 19 bloodthirsty muslim hijackers attacked us on 9/11 and made 3 buildings collapse completely with two planes? There are real progressives and then there are progressives who want to believe Bush is telling the truth about "al Qaeda". If the official story is true, why is Khalid Sheikh Mohammed not tried in public? How progressive is it for you all to accept this BS--it's right out of a dictatorship--doesn't strike you as odd, if indeed what they are claiming about 9/11 is all true?

Heard it all before
Posted by: CollD on Mar 15, 2007 11:59 AM   
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But when you consider that no reputable scientific or medical body believes that eating animals is good for us, let alone necessary

I just don't agree. Some people do very well on vegetarian diets. I was incredibly sick and only lasted 3 years. I was also seeing a nutritionist at the time so it's not for lack of trying. Vegetarian diets are great for some people, but i hate how people try to make it out like its the 'natural' diet for us. Yes, most people eat too much meat. But that doesn't mean humans are herbivores. Our appendix is useless for a reason one would think. As for being vegan, all of my vegan friends had to consume bottles full of vitamins and of course, all modern food is enhanced with vitamins and nutrients. B12 is put into a lot of vegetarian food. This alone shows to me that, without the benefit of our society, humans would have a lot of trouble getting the nutrients they need from an all plant diet. But of course, then one can get into the idea that most of our plant foods are missing the nutrients they once had from big agriculture. I am happy eating meat a couple of times a week...I buy local whenever possible. What we need is to eat less meat, and by it local. Not tell people they aren't progressive if they eat meat. And come on, linking to a person who claims humans are supposed to be vegetarians? Thats not what i learned in mammalogy and evolution.

Eco-Eating: Eating as if the Earth Matters
Posted by: CyberBrook on Mar 15, 2007 1:13 PM   
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Responding to Several Inaccuracies in This Piece
Posted by: MortontheMousse on Mar 15, 2007 2:10 PM   
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I wanted to briefly respond to several false statements in this piece.

Fallacy # 1) A vegetarian diet is healthier than an omnivorous diet

Most Americans should lower intake of saturated fat and cholesterol, granted. However, human nutrition is far more complex than this author would lead us to believe. Meat may contain some elements that are deleterious when consumed in excess, but meat also contains many essential nutrients that the author does not discuss. Specifically, the highly bio available vitamins, minerals, and phytonutrients found in meat cannot be easily replicated in a vegetarian diet. Deficiencies can lead to serious long term health consequences including arthritis, osteoporosis, and chronic fatigue.

The athlete example is a straw man - athletes often live shorter lives and suffer from more long term health consequences than moderately fit individuals. More importantly, every athlete on this list is a man! Men are more adaptable to a vegetarian diet, because we do not lose large amounts of iron every month due to menstruation. Replacing heme iron (iron found only in animal products) is difficult in a vegetarian diet and impossible in a vegan diet. Consequently, many vegetarian women suffer from anemia.

The solution? Moderation! Eat enough meat to get your essential nutrients, but keep your meat intake moderate so that you don't suffer from the negative health consequences of overconsumption.

Fallacy # 2) Organic meat does not provide an ethical alternative to factory farming

Some organic ranches practice inhumane and unsustainable animal rearing. However, it is wrong to apply this generalization to all organic ranches. I have personally toured several sustainable ranches in my area. These ranchers are highly concerned about animal welfare, humane slaughter, and environmental sustainability. It is insulting to dismiss these hard working ranchers en masse by linking a poorly researched and highly biased article from goveg.com.

The solution? Learn as much about the sources for your food as possible. Ask questions, and find producers who you can trust.

Fallacy # 3) Humans are not omnivorous

The article linked is pure pseudo-science. If we examine the jaw structure, intestinal structure, placement of the eyes, composition of intestinal bacteria, and the activities of apes in nature it is clear that we are neither herbivores nor carnivores. Any respectable biologist or anatomist will tell you without hesitation that humans are omnivores.

Fallacy # 4) Vegetarianism is intrinsically more eco-friendly than omnivorism

Many vegetarians feel that they are "doing enough" simply by being vegetarian. Therefore, they may be more careless with their food choices and purchase produce and dairy products that are farmed unsustainably. Conscientious Omnivores are aware of every food purchase we make, whether meat, dairy, egg, nut, grain, legume, fruit or vegetable. I have met few vegetarians who share my passion for and awareness of food sourcing.

Fallacy # 5) Vegetarianism is good for animal welfare

Most species of animals we eat have been bred to domesticity. Simply put, they cannot survive in the wild. If this country went vegetarian, all of these species would become extinct. There is no natural habitat to absorb them, and there would be no financial incentive to rear them. Sustainable, humane ranching has the potential to do more good for animal welfare than vegetarianism. The Heritage Foods Society has taken several animals off of the
endangered species list by encouraging ranchers to raise heirloom breeds. Their motto? "You have to eat the animal to save the animal."

Conclusion: this is a highly flawed piece that relies on biased, poorly researched evidence.

MtM

» re #5 Posted by: Jarmadi
» RE: re #5 Posted by: AdamG
» Tougher for horses Posted by: Jarmadi
» RE: Tougher for horses Posted by: MortontheMousse
vegetarianism
Posted by: eshipley on Mar 15, 2007 2:38 PM   
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Comments: I read your article re vegetarianism today on alternet and would
like to share why I became a veg back in 1970. I had just read Diet for a
small planet and saw that the amount of land used for animal feed vs food
for humans did not make sense. So, in a short amount of time, my family of 5
kids and husband changed their diet although to this day I am the only
vegetarian in the family. I later married a German person who was addicted to sausage and all the
other meats prevelent in that culture. So, when I found an article in
Organic gardening about tempeh and then found a kit on how to make it, I
gave it to him for a birthday gift and soon he was making it for the two of
us and later, we mortgaged everything we had to built a food processing
building producing Betsy's tempeh for the mid Mich. and Ohio area. Since
then, we have retired although we still make tempeh for ourselves and
produced a dvd on how to make tempeh at home. Thought you might find this interesting. Betsy Shipley

http://www.betsys-tempeh.com

lovescritters
Posted by: lovecritters on Mar 15, 2007 3:58 PM   
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If one can look at that photo of those chickens hanging upside down and headed toward a gruesome death and still want to eat chicken, then I don't know what to think. If we were to cut down tremendously on the number of animals that were slaughtered to feed people it's possible that their short lives could be improved as well as the methods used to slaughter them. The environmental benefits would be an improvement as well!

as i lead my examined life and learn more about my food
Posted by: nosmokes on Mar 15, 2007 4:26 PM   
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i've found that my farmer's(i belong to a couple of CSAs and do the rest of my shopping at the farmer's market) who use integrated organic bio-intensive techniques believe animals are a crucial component to their farms. now, while i don't meat but perhaps six to eight times a year, if that, it lways comes from these producers that i know or know of personnaly. it's locally raised, grass fed, and an integral part of a complete organic farm.
am i wrong? i can't believe that by supporting family farmers raising organic produce and stock in humane conditions that i'm perpetuating the problem and not contributing to the solution. i'm far more part of the solution than someone who is 100% vegetarian but is eating conventional veg or GMO veg that has been soaked w/ pesticides and trucked halfway across the country or shipped ffrom brazil to NY.

Thank you for this article.
Posted by: protect-animals on Mar 15, 2007 4:44 PM   
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Kathy,
Thank you for writing this very informative article on why politically progressive people should seriously consider adopting a vegetarian diet. I have been a vegan for a good while and I won't go back to a cruelty-based diet.

People who are trying to change their diet often find themselves bogged down by habit, including the habits of those around them. Seeking community can be a good solution. If there isn't an active local vegan or vegetarian community available, an online community can be very helpful. The links you included in your article looked very good. For people who are Christians, I particularly recommend the Christian Vegetarian Association (ChristianVeg.com).

Thanks again.

Oh, come on. Everybody knows the reason is TASTE!
Posted by: medstudgeek on Mar 15, 2007 6:00 PM   
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Meat has fat. Fat tastes good. This makes vegetarianism a hard sell.

Fat also causes heart disease in excess, of course.

The health benefits are well-proven (though make sure to take vitamin B12 supplements). But ultimately it's very hard for people to give up that sizzling steak, just like it's hard for them to take up exercise or do many other healthy things.

Find whats right for YOU
Posted by: trebsc on Mar 16, 2007 5:44 AM   
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This debate is silly and vaguely hysterical sounding.
First, there are many doctors who do not think a vegetarian diet is a good idea and many books like the Eat Right for Your Blood Type that don't think so either. There is also no guarantee that being a vegetarian keeps you at an ideal body weight. I was a fat vegetarian for fifteen years and have a number of overweight vegetarian friends as well.
Second, animals are a valuable part of farming. As a small scale, organic farmer, I'd be lost without my animals. I have a mule for some labor & fertilizer. My chickens eat leftover scraps and imperfect vegetables and fruits that fussy farmers market shoppers won't buy because they are blemished. They produce valuable eggs and manure for the garden. My sheep also produce valuable wool and manure. They keep weeds reduced and reduce bush hogging (huge mowers that often kill frogs, snakes, turtles that can't get out of the way.) And yes, when the day comes, and I take the extra ram lambs and extra poor quality breeding females to slaughter, I cry. They do have names and personalities and I am extremely mindful of the gift of life they give us. It is a beautiful, entertwined cycle that I am honored to be a part of. I could grow the same vegetables and fruits with chemical fertilizers, herbicides and pesticides, and the soil would be dead and give us the lifeless, tasteless items sold in commercial markets we have now. There are many studies that suggest that vegetables in the store today are much less nutritious than 30-50 years ago! My soil is so rich from all the compost, manure, and wonderful manure loving insects (earthworms, dung beetles, etc) that I no longer till each spring. I simply add another layer of compost and deep mulch and plant. This method gives rise to other problems (like a proliferation of slugs) but thats not the point. My point is that this life works for me. There is very little waste, Im in better physical shape (allthough still fat :) than ever, never sick, depressed or bored. I have much joy, If I had to live in the city with the hustle, traffic, smog, noise, hypermarkets, lights, I'd kill myself. All that concrete and dead earth? I say, how can you be a progressive and live like that, or worse in the suburban sprawl? There are so many ways to reduce our footprint on the earth- living more simply, not having so many kids, not consuming so much, eating locally and in season, not supportung factory farms and fast food, pick the ones that are right for you.

I'm vegan. I've been vegetarian now for 30 years...
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Mar 16, 2007 7:01 AM   
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I'm vegan. I've been vegetarian now for 30 years...This "debate" has been raging since then and it's reaching an apex now. Although I do agree that veg is the best diet for the planet, for animals, and for human health, I think we vegans need to let it go and stop telling the eat-meaters we have the moral,ethical high ground. They will (or won't) come around on their own time. Just cook yummy vegan food for your non-veg friends. Keep on cooking and feeding them. There is no point in arguing this anymore. We all know our own truths. They are firm in their truth. We are firm in ours. At this point, we all have "bigger fish ...uh, I mean tofu...to fry." So just keep cooking...

Meat tastes good.
Posted by: dwilliamsamh on Mar 16, 2007 3:16 PM   
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Life must be enjoyed and the simple fact of the matter for me is that I LIKE meat. I like beef, pork, chicken, almost every fish or shell fish I've ever tasted, not to mention deer and lamb.

Simply put, call me cruel, but I am not willing to sacrifice enjoying my food for the rest of my life. Simple as that. And yeah I have had and enjoyed vegetarian dishes. Some are good some suck but they ALL are missing an essential ingredient to my dining pleasure.

I don't like cruelty to animals and in large regard, I put my money where my mouth is in that regard, but on this I am selfish. Period.