COMMENTS: 138
Ethanol: Feed a Person for a Year or Fill Up an SUV?
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The most amazing part of the press release trumpeting the legislation is its fourth paragraph, in which Lugar declares that "U.S. policies should be targeted to replace hydrocarbons with carbohydrates."
Let's consider that for a moment. In the 18th and 19th centuries, the U.S. economy was primarily based on carbohydrates. For most people, horses were the main mode of transportation. They were also a primary work source for plowing and planting. Aside from coal, which was used by the railroads and in some factories, the U.S. economy depended largely on the ability of draft animals to turn grass and forage into usable toil. America's farmers were solely focused on producing food and fiber. And while the U.S. was moderately prosperous, it was not a world leader.
Oil changed all that. After the discovery of vast quantities of oil in Texas, Oklahoma, and other locales, America was able to create a modern transportation system, with cars, buses, and airplanes. That oil helped the U.S. become a dominant military power. Humans were freed from the limitations of the carbohydrate economy, which was constrained by the amount of arable land.
Thus while Lugar and his ilk promote ethanol, they are ignoring a pivotal question: should our farms produce food or fuel?
Last September, Lester Brown, the president of the Earth Policy Institute (a group that promotes "an environmentally sustainable economy") wrote in a Washington Post opinion piece that the amount of grain needed to make enough ethanol to fill a 25-gallon SUV tank "would feed one person for a full year. If the United States converted its entire grain harvest into ethanol, it would satisfy less than 16 percent of its automotive needs." Brown said the ongoing ethanol boom in the U.S. was "setting the stage for an epic competition. In a narrow sense, it is one between the world's supermarkets and its service stations." More broadly, "it is a battle between the world's 800 million automobile owners, who want to maintain their mobility, and the world's two billion poorest people, who simply want to survive."
Using food to make fuel bothers many analysts, and whether their affiliation is liberal or conservative doesn't seem to matter. Dennis Avery, director of global food issues at the Hudson Institute, a conservative think-tank in Washington, D.C., has concerns that are remarkably similar to Brown's. A few days after Brown's piece appeared in the Post, Avery published a paper showing that ethanol simply cannot provide enough motor fuel to make a significant difference in America's fuel consumption. And like Brown, he laid bare the essential question: food or fuel?
"The real conflict over cropland in the 21st century," wrote Avery, "will set people's desire for biofuels against their altruistic desire that all the children on the planet be well-nourished." He continued, "The world's total cropland resources seem totally inadequate to the vast size of the energy challenge. We would effectively be burning food as auto fuel in a world that is not fully well-fed now, and whose food demand will more than double in the next 40 years." Avery says that even if the U.S. adopted biofuels as the antidote for imported crude oil, "It would take more than 546 million acres of U.S. farmland to replace all of our current gasoline use with corn ethanol."
That's a huge area, especially considering that the total amount of American cropland covers about 440 million acres.
But the constraints imposed by the amount of arable land in the U.S. are not important to the politicos on both the Left and the Right who insist that America must be "energy independent." For the apparatchiks who worship at the altar of ethanol, no subsidy is too great, no corn field is too big, as they push their bilge about the perils of foreign oil. None of them bother with pesky facts, like this one: the U.S. was a net crude oil importer way back in 1913. In fact, since 1913, the U.S. has been a net crude oil importer in all but nine of those years.
Thus, while farmers, politicos, and Big Agriculture insist on casting the ethanol scam in terms of national security, the evils of foreign oil, and the benefits of ethanol to rural communities, the larger issue is a moral one: are we going to use our precious farmland to grow food, or are we going to subsidize the growth of an industry that turns food into a commodity, motor fuel, of which we already have an abundant supply?
The answer should be obvious.
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Posted by: richmx2 on Mar 5, 2007 12:21 AM
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» RE: This MIGHT be true, if...
Posted by: willymack
» RE: This MIGHT be true, if...
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» RE: This MIGHT be true, if...
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Excellent Comment! Ethanol truly is the BIG LIE!
Posted by: Douglas
» RE: This MIGHT be true, if...
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» Biofuels In General Are Not The Solution!!
Posted by: Douglas
» RE: Biofuels In General Are Not The Solution!!
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» RE: Biofuels In General Are Not The Solution!!
Posted by: JimTheAnarchist
» RE: carbon based too!
Posted by: sasquuatch55
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Posted by: AndyF on Mar 5, 2007 4:21 AM
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Maybe, just maybe we should adopt a slightly more nuanced approach and recognize that ethanol production may offset some petroleum use in our country and that higher demand for corn may bring prices to a level at which government subsidies for corn production can be phased out. These prices may also force meat producers to re-think their production model and possibly shift from a CAFO/feedlot model to a grass based model using some of the ground which is currently being taken out of agriculture and abandoned. Another possibility is that as ethanol use increases, the US will abandon its import tariffs and allow Brazil and other South and Central American countries to export their cheaper ethanol to us. Or as production increases, new materials, such as switchgrass, willow or other biomass will be utilized as a feedstock.
This is an exciting time and it would be nice to see some positive consideration of alternatives to our oil based economy rather than more of the same complaining that whatever being considered is not a silver bullet which will solve all of society's problems in one fell swoop.
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» RE: It's not either/or
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» corn syrup
Posted by: bim
» RE: It's not either/or
Posted by: existen
» RE: It's not either/or
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» RE: It's not either/or
Posted by: Trazom
» great comment!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: great comment!
Posted by: mwildfire
» Terrible Comments Made By People Desparate To Hang Onto Their Automobile-Based Lifestyles!
Posted by: Douglas
» RE: Terrible Comments Made By People Desparate To Hang Onto Their Automobile-Based Lifestyles!
Posted by: JimTheAnarchist
» RE: great comment! yours sucks
Posted by: Krain61
» Or maybe...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Precisely...
Posted by: doctorsquared
» No More Cars Period!!
Posted by: Douglas
» No More Cars, huh?
Posted by: jonwert
» RE: No More Cars, huh?
Posted by: JimTheAnarchist
» RE: Wake-up
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» RE: Wake-up
Posted by: Ben Furman
» Right on! Bush false!
Posted by: sysadmintech
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Posted by: setterwoman on Mar 5, 2007 5:08 AM
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The only advantage I see in corn ethanol is bringing us closer to the collapse of big ag. With all the mono-cropping of corn and soybeans, I can't imagine that problems won't arise to destroy those crops before new solutions can be provided. The land is so degraded that more and more inputs are required, more insect and disease problems require harsher pesticides that are causing more and more health problems of farm workers and people living in rural communities.
That land is totally unsuitable for growing real food, or at least healthy food. Prairie grasses could be a good solution for fuel and for restoring that land.
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» RE: Missing pieces
Posted by: JimTheAnarchist
» RE: Missing pieces
Posted by: Leadbyexample
» Hemp oil is also a possibility
Posted by: doctorsquared
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Posted by: Rilong on Mar 5, 2007 6:11 AM
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I see alot of unproductive land and people looking for jobs. I think there are opportunities for small farmers using solar fed electric tractors growing biomass crops supplying co-op ethanol plants fueling plug-in electric biodiesel hybrid cars.
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» RE: ilong
Posted by: HeroesAll
» small family farms
Posted by: setterwoman
» If the world is so short of food, why can't these guys keep going?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: HeroesAll on Mar 5, 2007 6:22 AM
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Very few people seem to stop to consider whether or not there are any valid points made. I don't know why, but I suspect that our selfish, minority world viewpoint won't let us think about unpleasant issues like this one.
I'll try a couple of responses to these blanket claims, and see what results.
First up, the "ethanol can, too, work!" rebuttal. Now as far as I know, no other fuel has the energy density (energy per volume) of petrol. And no other fuel has the EROEI (energy return on energy invested) of petrol. None. That's why it's had such a massive effect on our way of life. And that's why ethanol, or any plant-based fuel, can't substitute for petrol without some serious changes to our way of life.
Second, the "feeding the poor isn't our responsibility" rebuttal. True. And again as far as I know, US grain doesn't go a whole way towards feeding the poor as it is.
But consider this: less land used for grain means less grain available to the world. Less grain means higher prices. Higher prices make it even harder for people in the majority world to eat. There's no getting around that.
Certainly, if everyone in the US stopped eating any meat other than free range, that would loosen up the world grain market to an extent, which might result in lower prices and less hunger. Do you see that happening? We're so incredibly spoilt, so conditioned to our wasteful luxuries, that we refuse to countenance any solution to any problem that might alter our current luxury.
So why should we care that people are starving? Well, because we're human. And because I, for one, would feel very squirgly about driving a honking great tank knowing that I was directly contributing to world hunger. I'm funny that way.
The short form: do we have responsibility? Yes, as a member of the human race and an inhabitant of the one planet. If we can't even consider weaning ourselves off petrol in a way that doesn't impact on the survival of others, we've got no claim to any virtues. And we might just hang onto our wasteful ways until we're out of any options at all. Which might not be a bad thing, from the planet's point of view.
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» Petrol & Diesel are dirty polluting fuels that need many additives to work.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Ethanol Is a Dirty, Polluting Fuel That Causes Much Environmental Damage To Produce.
Posted by: Douglas
» "Squirgly." My word for the day! :-) nt
Posted by: particle
» RE: eactions here are interesting
Posted by: Krain61
» My reaction
Posted by: AdamG
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Mar 5, 2007 6:26 AM
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In the end ethanol, which does not address all of its own attendant costs or the unsustainable costs it shares with our current situation.
Ethanol is not a solution because it is trying to solve a problem.. making industrialized society sustainable.. that has no solution.
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» RE: In the end...
Posted by: HeroesAll
» Yes, we face that problem.. as well as...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Yes, we face that problem.. as well as...
Posted by: JimTheAnarchist
» RE: Yes, we face that problem.. as well as...
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: In the end...
Posted by: cinattra
» Without Government Subsidies It Would Be Unprofitable To Produce And Sell Ethanol!
Posted by: Douglas
» RE: Without Government Subsidies It Would Be Unprofitable To Produce And Sell Ethanol!
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» The US Should Tax Fossil Fuels and Ethanol (After Eliminating Ethanol Subsidies)!!
Posted by: Douglas
» RE: The US Should Tax Fossil Fuels and Ethanol (After Eliminating Ethanol Subsidies)!!
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
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Posted by: deanwj on Mar 5, 2007 6:44 AM
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However the ethanol production from corn isn't sufficient to make it pay. Crops with higher sugar or starch content per acre would do much better, like potatoes, sugar beets, mangle beets, Jerusalem artichokes to name a few would be much more efficient. Ethanol production per acre for corn is a mere 354 gallons per acre, while Sugar beets can produce over 700 gallons per acre.
These single crop corn farmers would do well to look at other crops and enzymes that can reduce cellulose to sugar.
Dean W. Johnson
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Posted by: anthroman on Mar 5, 2007 6:53 AM
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Anyways, as for the ethanol v. food argument, it should be irrelevant. It will never be economical and will most likely end up in a net energy loss if we concentrate ethanol and biofuel production on grain crops. Corn needs so much nitrogen and water to grow that the inputs it requires will never be sustainable. Hemp would be our best option as a biofuel source because of the fact it needs no to very little inputs, grows fast, and can grow in relatively poor soils. It is little known that Henry Ford made a prototype model T that ran on hemp oil. However, he scraped that once the United States outlawed the plant, with the help of the oil and cotton industries.
Furthermore, we cannot put all of our eggs in the biofuel basket. No matter what crops are used it will never be able to replace our current energy use. We are going to have to get serious and critically look at the amount and ways we use energy in our daily lifestyles. Biofuels will be part of the post-fossil fuel economy, but only part. We need big changes in how we power our homes (move away from the current power grid with one huge producer to one that has a network of many individual produces using solar and wind), produces food (more local), and most of all our lifestyles and settlement patterns (saying bye, bye to suburban and car centered living).
Articles like this do nothing to advance the move to a post-fossil fuel economy by not getting to the heart of the issue.
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» Alternet IGNORES Hemp and allows trash authors to get away with it too.
Posted by: maxpayne
» Hemp still doesn't answer the questions of industrialisms unsustainability
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» So what's your solution, if you even have one, loser?
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: So what's your solution, if you even have one, loser?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: So what's your solution, if you even have one, loser?
Posted by: Krain61
» And by the way, Hemp does actually address sustainability, loser.
Posted by: maxpayne
» No, it doesn't.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Wrong again. You didn't even read the article. Stop siding with the DEA and grow some balls.
Posted by: Jason Jordan
» Update: Now I see what you're referring to.
Posted by: Jason Jordan
» Don't put words in my mouth, Jason.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Ok... to clarify...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Growing Crops To Fuel Cars Is Unsustainable Regardless Of The Crop Grown!
Posted by: Douglas
» I'm all for conservation but from city folks I've talked to, they get PUNISHED for doing it.
Posted by: Jason Jordan
» RE: Bicycles Are "Fuel Efficient Vehicles" And Keep You In Shape And Looking Good!
Posted by: Jason Jordan
» RE: Bicycles
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» If people can ride bikes nearly everywhere in Boston...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Mar 5, 2007 7:13 AM
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Grow whatever you want on your farm, but don't tell me what to grow on my little plot of earth..
Incidentally, I agree with the premise (but obviously not the spirit) of our authoritarian author--that public funds have no business going into subsidizing the ethanol industry. Even if we turned every bit of arable land into corn-to-ethanol "factories", we'd still only produce enough ethanol to displace 12% of our oil consumption.
If ethanol entrepreneurs can find a way to turn a buck without leveraging the contributions of every last one of the shrinking number of taxpayers in this country to do so, then so be it. In the meantime, we should absolutely be up in (figurative) arms over the prospect of the poor fiscal decisions to subsidize another unproductive, ill-considered, inefficient government-dependent industry.
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Posted by: rwa on Mar 5, 2007 7:24 AM
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High grain prices are threatening the nascent biofuels industry, raising input costs and making the fuel less economic compared with oil.
Agricultural commodity prices have reached long-term highs in recent days, based on forecasts of hot and dry weather conditions this year in the US which could result in lower grain yields. This comes after oil prices have fallen by a quarter from their record peaks last year.
Corn prices reached another 10-year high for the second successive day when it touched $4.31 a bushel, up five cents on the day. But the doubling of corn, a main feedstock for US ethanol producers, over the past year at a time when oil prices are at the same level they were 12 months ago has raised questions over the viability of the biofuels industry without heavy government support...
Earlier this week, production problems were reported at a biofuels plant in Spain jointly owned by Abengoa and Ebro Puleva. The plant was reported to be running below capacity and a halt in production was under consideration. But Ebro Puleva said the plant was guaranteed feed stock into March, though it admitted that the high cereal prices were squeezing operating margins.
Sophie Justice, director and head of renewables at RBC Capital Markets, said that rising grain prices were one of the biggest issues for biofuels companies. She said: “There is a real risk to these companies from the higher prices. The more uncertainty in the feed stock prices, the more the economics of biofuels are challenged.”
She said it showed that the biofuels industry was still heavily dependent on government subsidies in most countries.
The biofuels industries in the US and Europe are cushioned against market prices by heavy government subsidies, which lessen the impact of higher grain prices...
Brazil is the world’s biggest producer of ethanol, and its industry will be unaffected by high grain prices because its producers use sugar cane rather than wheat. Converting sugar to ethanol is more efficient than using wheat, and Brazilian companies are widely acknowledged to be the world leaders in efficient techniques to convert sugar cane to fuel.
Concerns over biofuels supply have prompted the US to start discussions with Brazil over ways to create a global market for biofuels by promoting common standards, according to reports. Mr Bush will meet Brazil’s Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva in March. But the US has so far refused to budge from its tariff of 54 cents a gallon imposed on ethanol imports into the US.
Although biofuels have been presented as a way of reducing greenhouse gas emissions, because the plants from which they are derived absorb carbon dioxide from the air as they grow, many environmental groups have begun questioning policies to increase biofuels usage.
This is because some of the countries planning to produce more biofuels are destroying rainforest to make room for plantations to grow palm oil, sugar cane or other biofuel crops. Other experts have questioned the energy savings produced by using biofuels, which require energy input to convert them from plants to fuels, and in the form of fertiliser to grow the crops..
The Financial Times
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Posted by: cobblepot1 on Mar 5, 2007 7:26 AM
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Mar 5, 2007 7:36 AM
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Issue #1: Industrial fossil-fueled agriculture is completely unsustainable, regardless of whether you are growing food or fuel or both. The only solution is to move towards sustainable agriculture, which means using solar and wind power and traditional crop rotation and soil maintenance that maintain soil nutrients. Most industrial agriculture is simply hydroponics - a dead soil matrix that is flooded with petrochemical-sourced fertilizers, fungicides and herbicides. The net energy input to industrial farms is far greater than the food output - and that can be changed, but only with a deliberate focussed program to do so.
Issue #2: As every researcher who studies this would tell you, corn-based ethanol is near the bottom of the list of preferred ethanol sources. Brazil's sugarcane method is sustainable and requires no fossil fuel inputs, yet Midwestern ethanol producers and their senators make sure that Brazilian ethanol can't be imported to the US (there are no such constraints on fossil fuel imports!) Free trade? Right. There is also the even more promising approach of cellulose-based ethanol from portions of crops that used to be burned - rice straw, wheat straw, and cornstalks.
Issue#3 - The author ignores the real dynamic of US industrial agribusiness - the corn is mostly fed to hogs and chickens on factory farms (over 55% of US corn production goes to this). The next largest share is sent to other countries under unfair NAFTA trade rules; this practice has devastated local Mexican economies, driven farmers off their land, and is probably the main factor behind all the immigration pressures. It's really a very poorly written article that ignores basic facts.
Issue#4 - The SUV is not the preferred vehicle. This is the easiest area to make imporvements - the difference between a 12 mpg SUV and a 72 mpg hybrid is very large - a 600% increase in efficiency. You can also build hybrid trucks - but what doers all this mean? A vast reduction in demand for fossil fuels - and the fossil fuel importers do everything they can to stimulate demand.
Issue #5 - the massive public relations presence of the fossil fuel lobby and their associates. Look at what they've done on the issue of global warming - hundreds of millions have been spent on front organizations who attack climate science, on political lobbying, on a massive program of lies and deceptions that tops anything the tobacco lobby tried to do. Do you really think that they would ignore the issue of renewable solar-based fuels? Ethanol is just one such fuel; there are technologies that can essentially make gasoline-like molecules using solar power inputs, for example; the fossil fuel system relies on keeping people hooked on petroleum. Of course they'd spend millions on a PR program that attacks biofuels.
There are three serious threats to the dominance of fossil fuels: (1) awareness of global warming and climate change, (2) the rise of renewable biofuels and solar fuels, and (3) vast increases in the efficiency of the global transportation fleet. They are doing everything they can think of to maintain demand (and to control supply)- look at how the Democrat's promise to end subsidies for fossil fuels was immediately gutted (they own Democrats, as well as Bush, Cheney, Rice, etc.). After all, what's the point in controlling Iraqi oil if noone wants to buy it?
In short, this article should have be preceded by the statement, "this is an advertisement".
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» RE: That question is nonsense based on false premises
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» RE: That question is nonsense based on false premises
Posted by: Krain61
» If You Don't Like The Message, Attack The Messenger! Insist He Represents Evil, Nefarious Interests!
Posted by: Douglas
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Posted by: rwa on Mar 5, 2007 7:37 AM
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Posted by: SteveO on Mar 5, 2007 7:43 AM
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BTW Fischer Tropsch conversion is much more efficent than cuurent fermentation/distillation based ethanol production, but ADM doesn't have a stake in that so the feds won't promote it.
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on Mar 5, 2007 8:06 AM
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Companies like Iogen have apparently developed a practical way to reduce the inedible portions (such as the stalks and dried leaves of corn) to ethanol using an enzymatic process.
The total amount of fuel that can be generated this way will not replace oil but it can alleviate a part of oil usage until there is time to adjust to a better way.
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Mar 5, 2007 9:01 AM
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Item: TXU Corp., the Texas-based utility, and its prospective buyout partners, Kohlberg Kravis and Texas Pacific, have gotten great press for pledging not to build five or six of the 11 coal-fired generating plants they were planning.
By getting the support of some green groups for scaled-back construction plans that the company never should have entertained in the first place, TXU gets their blessing for this $43 billion buyout deal. TXU and its buyers succeeded in changing the subject -- from TXU's monopoly power, the huge rate increases that have hit Texas consumers, and the lack of transparency for a deal that will create even more monopoly power and rate hikes. Guess which kind of green this belated conversion is really about?
This is not the first time that some environmentalists have served as corporate enablers of electricity deregulation and buyout deals that gouged consumers. One such deal got some environmental commitments in exchange for California's massive deregulation, which opened the door to Enron's abuses.
Hear, hear.
Now we've got this poorly written hit piece on biofuels, which you can be sure the oil importers just love. The last line of this article is illuminating: motor fuel, of which we already have an abundant supply?
That 'abundant supply' is a blatant mistatement of the facts; every year, the US imports more and more oil from all over the world, and the US military is used to go into places like Iraq and Africa in order to guarantee that the control of the supply is maintained. The imperial aggression of Bush&Co. entirely revolves around capturing the world's oil supplies (the same was true of Japan imperialism in the Pacific, and German imperialism in WWII, and British imperialism in the early 20th century in Iran and Iraq.)
Very poor showing, as I hope you recognize. Quit publishing what the fossil fuel lobby loves to read, would you? Tell people the truth.
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» RE: What is it with Alternet's environmental reporting?
Posted by: mwildfire
» thoughtethanol always smears opponents of ethanol as "front persons" for the fossil fuel lobby!
Posted by: Douglas
» thoughtethanol smears others even as he is faithfully parroting Ethanol Lobby propaganda!!!
Posted by: Douglas
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Posted by: Leadbyexample on Mar 5, 2007 9:43 AM
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» Both You And thoughtethanol Have It Exactly Wrong!! To Save The Environment, Give Up Your Cars!!
Posted by: Douglas
» You need to get your eyes checked
Posted by: Leadbyexample
» You Need To Actually Lead By Example, Not Just Appropriate The Name!!!
Posted by: Douglas
» Douglas.... the eco-judge
Posted by: Leadbyexample
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Posted by: djnoll on Mar 5, 2007 11:50 AM
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1. In 2007 the US will be becomes the largest importer of food in the world. Folks, we cannot even feed ourselves anymore. This means that we have become an unsustainable society.
2. That ethanol is an inefficient fuel in relation to fossil fuels. This is absolutely correct, and to produce enough of any food crop (corn, sugar beets, or hemp) to fuel all the cars in the US, much less the world, we would need every square inch of arable land to do it.
Here is another fact in case anyone is interested: We are losing approximately 1,000,000 acres of land per year while our population is expected to double within the next 50 years, or less. Let's see - less land, more people, reliance on other nations for food, oil depletion, global warming, economic depression - the perfect storm should hit in about 10 years!
So as we all sit here and wring our hands about hemp vs. corn; ethanol vs. biodeisel vs. solar; industrial agriculture vs organic, biointensive agriculture, our society is falling apart. I am not particularly interested in rebuilding other nations' economies or feeding their people while our economy collapses and our people go hungry. I am interested in educating people to the dangers we all face, here in the US, and how we can change things.
The more I study and the more I learn about issues like this the more I realize that unless we get out there and educate people and make them willing to make radical changes in their lives, it will not matter if we have ethanol or food, because we will have neither, and that will be the end of the story.
Consider this: a horse or pony costs about $1000; tack and/or a small pony cart costs about $5000; annual feed, stabling, and vet bills runs about $3500 (approximate figures only depending on location). This means an initial investment of $6000, and annual upkeep of $3500 as opposed to a new Prius at $32,000 and annual upkeep, incl. fuel, of nearly $3000. The horse or pony will live about 17 years, but the Prius will be obsolete in 10 or less. You tell me which is more economic and which is the better use of renewable fuels. Oh, by the way, the horse or pony provides a byproduct the Prius does not: fertilizer for an organic garden or two, while a Prius does not. This is the future we may all face if we want to get somewhere or eat. I do not think anyone is willing to accept that, but in a society that is non-sustainable and facing collapse, that will be the result.
So, instead of debating about fuel or food production, we should be asking our local governments to preserve land for food production only; demanding public transportation that can be run on solar; demand public utilities be required to buy back power, regardless of whether they are regulated or not, from farms that are willing to set aside roof tops or land for wind or solar production as well as residential housing using solar shingles; and start demanding that our children be taught about sustainable options, then actively pursue them in our homes - organic gardens instead of fancy trees; limited car use (get bikes or walk or neighborhood carpooling or sharing); create neighborhoods where everyone knows everyone to insure safety for our children; work together to create social change that allows for these things to happen. We will not be able fix everything overnight, but if we do not start right now working to change things, we will never be able to at all, and then you will get to watch your children go hungry because you will not have any car to go to the store, but it will not matter because the store won't have any food either.
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» RE: It May All Be A Moot Point
Posted by: Krain61
» RE: It May All Be A Moot Point
Posted by: djnoll
» A few more points in support of the horse
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: A few more points in support of the horse
Posted by: djnoll
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Posted by: rwa on Mar 5, 2007 12:25 PM
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http://www.llnl.gov/str/Durham.html
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» Still...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Still...
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» RE: Still...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Under-reported reality
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Under-reported reality
Posted by: rwa
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Posted by: Krain61 on Mar 5, 2007 12:48 PM
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» and when we're done with all of those technofixes...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: and when we're done with all of those technofixes...
Posted by: Krain61
» Actually, Krain...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Sorry, that first line should read "realistic" solutions of your own...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Actually, Krain...
Posted by: Krain61
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Posted by: Krain61 on Mar 5, 2007 12:57 PM
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I was always told for every action there is a re-action.
But in this case there maybe not just global warming but if you think about it how much less does our earth weigh now after billion of barrels of oil have been removed not including the coal.
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Posted by: godsouza on Mar 5, 2007 1:22 PM
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In the 80s when I didn't have a car my round trip commute by bicycle was 44 miles. If I took 45 miles for five days as a rough number including side trips I get 468 miles to the gallon.
45x5x52/25=468
In this period I also rode my bike ot the Jasper Ice Fields from San Jose CA but I ate tons of ice cream on that trip.
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Posted by: Jason Jordan on Mar 5, 2007 4:26 PM
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Funny, Alternet does not even mention that yet they give credit to corporate liars who pretend to be turning a new leaf on the environment.
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» RE: And what about Zero Energy Design homes?
Posted by: Leadbyexample
» RE: And what about Zero Energy Design homes?
Posted by: Jason Jordan
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Posted by: drblack on Mar 5, 2007 7:08 PM
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Hemp or marijuana will grow almost anywhere and if the flowers and leaves are tilled back into the soil only one fertilizer application is required for an ongoing production.
There was a complete plan of this worked out by an engineer in the 70's. I think his book was called "Solar Gas" and his name was David Gold. I am not sure of the names but I do remember that the info was well researched and had been done on a small scale.
Hemp is the greatest producer of bio-mass per-acre. This is why it is the best crop for ethanol. Also ,since the nitrogen is all in the leaves and flowers ,by turning these back into the soil the need for fertilizer is extremely low after the first crop.
Also ethanol emits co2 and water when burned:but the co2 released from ethanol from hemp will be reabsorbed by the next crop of hemp.
This could put small family farms back in business ,but the big petro companies will not support it.
First we all must get our government to repeal prohibition. Only then will small family farms be able to grow hemp and use solar stills to produce ethanol for local consumption.
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Posted by: yisforyeti on Mar 5, 2007 7:58 PM
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Optimistic estimates for the amount of ethanol that can be produced from corn top out at about 400 gallons per acre per year. Conservative estimates for algae biodiesel production exceed 10,000 gallons per acre per year. No, that is not a mistake. Check it out.
In addition, algae require neither arable land nor potable water. It can (and often is) grown in the desert, where there is ample sunlight to help increase the rate of production, and many strains can be grown on salt water or waste water.
The current debate on whether or not it's reasonable or even viable to use corn or beets as a source of fuel will continue until one of two things happens: 1) The technology of farming algae in large quantities develops on its own to the point of being impossible to ignore, or 2) we make it impossible to ignore now and get the ball rolling.
So who wants to write their senator?
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Posted by: cbcb on Mar 6, 2007 2:24 AM
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» RE: Just something I noticed -- Yeah, me too.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» RE: Just something I noticed -- Yeah, me too.
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» You talk the talk, Benjaminsjw. Do you walk the walk?
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» RE: You talk the talk, Benjaminsjw. Do you walk the walk?
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» If overpopulation cancels out every "sustainable" thing we do, why the deafening silence??
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» How about planning the plan?
Posted by: Beck
» RE: How about planning the plan? -- Beck, I've answered your questions many times.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
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Posted by: richholland on Mar 6, 2007 3:38 AM
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A small number of people made good money.
Surinam was ruled by one Coorporation and even a more profitable solution was found; buy black slaves in Africa.
The poor whites and blacks were treated in an abhorrent way.
But the shareholders made money.
And this is what GOD wanted was told to the people.
And if you free the slaves all people will be hungry was told.
However around 1795 the Coorporation went banckrupt although the Dutch state subsidized for milliones.
So if the Greenies want ethanol or energie from chicken shit and Ralf Nadar and Al Gore become both President of the USA and the Free World and the Universe but your production system is based on Profitmaking Capitalistic Coorporations
nothing changes
And the poor escape into starvation and Islamic faith and the overweighted American will should Terrorists...Terrorists
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» RE: change of lifestyle, forget it
Posted by: jonwert
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Posted by: guybjones on Mar 6, 2007 5:18 AM
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Ethanol fits perfectly into this scheme. I won't even get into the absurdity of using cropland to grow fuel for automobiles, nor the widely accepted scientific opinion that the energy required to sow, fertilize, harvest, transport and convert organic material into ethanol requires consumption of far more petroleum energy than ethanol saves. And forget the fact that, as mentioned in the article, even a mass use of cropland for ethanol purposes wouldn't create enough of the stuff to even make a dent in our oil consumption.
It's telling that the steps that would be the easiest for the U.S. to implement, and have the greatest environmental impact - mass transit investment, increased auto fuel efficiency standards, tax incentives for consumers who buy efficient vehicles - are the ones we're not willing to make.
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» Its not that WE are willing to take them...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Its not that WE are willing to take them...
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» I do nothing about it?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: I do nothing about it? -- Don't take it personally.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» RE: I do nothing about it? -- Don't take it personally.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: I do nothing about it? -- Don't take it personally. I've gone through this many times.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
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Posted by: pphelps on Mar 7, 2007 5:15 PM
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» Ever notice how SUVs ads appeal to toughness & wimpiness at the same time?
Posted by: Pat Kittle
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Posted by: Lazerai on Mar 8, 2007 3:35 PM
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Studies done by the USDE in the 80s illustrated that strains of algae contains up to 50% vegetable oil by weight could be grown using contaminated farm run off, other strains have been shown to grow well in brackish or salt water. Some recent projects have grown algae in water and fertilized with CO2 from industrial pollution sources. The remaining mass after the oil is pressed out of this algae? Cellulose. So your growing fuel and cleaning up pollutants at the same time! Additionally, systems keep getting more efficient. The synthesis of these idea, if encouraged, could create an actual solution rather than a bunch of self-righteous vitriol.
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» RE: Shouting instead of debating
Posted by: Blade
» RE: Shouting instead of debating
Posted by: yisforyeti
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Posted by: richmx2 on Mar 5, 2007 12:21 AM
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» RE: This MIGHT be true, if...
Posted by: willymack
» RE: This MIGHT be true, if...
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» RE: This MIGHT be true, if...
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Excellent Comment! Ethanol truly is the BIG LIE!
Posted by: Douglas
» RE: This MIGHT be true, if...
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» Biofuels In General Are Not The Solution!!
Posted by: Douglas
» RE: Biofuels In General Are Not The Solution!!
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» RE: Biofuels In General Are Not The Solution!!
Posted by: JimTheAnarchist
» RE: carbon based too!
Posted by: sasquuatch55
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Posted by: AndyF on Mar 5, 2007 4:21 AM
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Maybe, just maybe we should adopt a slightly more nuanced approach and recognize that ethanol production may offset some petroleum use in our country and that higher demand for corn may bring prices to a level at which government subsidies for corn production can be phased out. These prices may also force meat producers to re-think their production model and possibly shift from a CAFO/feedlot model to a grass based model using some of the ground which is currently being taken out of agriculture and abandoned. Another possibility is that as ethanol use increases, the US will abandon its import tariffs and allow Brazil and other South and Central American countries to export their cheaper ethanol to us. Or as production increases, new materials, such as switchgrass, willow or other biomass will be utilized as a feedstock.
This is an exciting time and it would be nice to see some positive consideration of alternatives to our oil based economy rather than more of the same complaining that whatever being considered is not a silver bullet which will solve all of society's problems in one fell swoop.
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» RE: It's not either/or
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» corn syrup
Posted by: bim
» RE: It's not either/or
Posted by: existen
» RE: It's not either/or
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» RE: It's not either/or
Posted by: Trazom
» great comment!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: great comment!
Posted by: mwildfire
» Terrible Comments Made By People Desparate To Hang Onto Their Automobile-Based Lifestyles!
Posted by: Douglas
» RE: Terrible Comments Made By People Desparate To Hang Onto Their Automobile-Based Lifestyles!
Posted by: JimTheAnarchist
» RE: great comment! yours sucks
Posted by: Krain61
» Or maybe...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Precisely...
Posted by: doctorsquared
» No More Cars Period!!
Posted by: Douglas
» No More Cars, huh?
Posted by: jonwert
» RE: No More Cars, huh?
Posted by: JimTheAnarchist
» RE: Wake-up
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» RE: Wake-up
Posted by: Ben Furman
» Right on! Bush false!
Posted by: sysadmintech
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Posted by: setterwoman on Mar 5, 2007 5:08 AM
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The only advantage I see in corn ethanol is bringing us closer to the collapse of big ag. With all the mono-cropping of corn and soybeans, I can't imagine that problems won't arise to destroy those crops before new solutions can be provided. The land is so degraded that more and more inputs are required, more insect and disease problems require harsher pesticides that are causing more and more health problems of farm workers and people living in rural communities.
That land is totally unsuitable for growing real food, or at least healthy food. Prairie grasses could be a good solution for fuel and for restoring that land.
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» RE: Missing pieces
Posted by: JimTheAnarchist
» RE: Missing pieces
Posted by: Leadbyexample
» Hemp oil is also a possibility
Posted by: doctorsquared
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Posted by: Rilong on Mar 5, 2007 6:11 AM
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I see alot of unproductive land and people looking for jobs. I think there are opportunities for small farmers using solar fed electric tractors growing biomass crops supplying co-op ethanol plants fueling plug-in electric biodiesel hybrid cars.
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» RE: ilong
Posted by: HeroesAll
» small family farms
Posted by: setterwoman
» If the world is so short of food, why can't these guys keep going?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: HeroesAll on Mar 5, 2007 6:22 AM
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Very few people seem to stop to consider whether or not there are any valid points made. I don't know why, but I suspect that our selfish, minority world viewpoint won't let us think about unpleasant issues like this one.
I'll try a couple of responses to these blanket claims, and see what results.
First up, the "ethanol can, too, work!" rebuttal. Now as far as I know, no other fuel has the energy density (energy per volume) of petrol. And no other fuel has the EROEI (energy return on energy invested) of petrol. None. That's why it's had such a massive effect on our way of life. And that's why ethanol, or any plant-based fuel, can't substitute for petrol without some serious changes to our way of life.
Second, the "feeding the poor isn't our responsibility" rebuttal. True. And again as far as I know, US grain doesn't go a whole way towards feeding the poor as it is.
But consider this: less land used for grain means less grain available to the world. Less grain means higher prices. Higher prices make it even harder for people in the majority world to eat. There's no getting around that.
Certainly, if everyone in the US stopped eating any meat other than free range, that would loosen up the world grain market to an extent, which might result in lower prices and less hunger. Do you see that happening? We're so incredibly spoilt, so conditioned to our wasteful luxuries, that we refuse to countenance any solution to any problem that might alter our current luxury.
So why should we care that people are starving? Well, because we're human. And because I, for one, would feel very squirgly about driving a honking great tank knowing that I was directly contributing to world hunger. I'm funny that way.
The short form: do we have responsibility? Yes, as a member of the human race and an inhabitant of the one planet. If we can't even consider weaning ourselves off petrol in a way that doesn't impact on the survival of others, we've got no claim to any virtues. And we might just hang onto our wasteful ways until we're out of any options at all. Which might not be a bad thing, from the planet's point of view.
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» Petrol & Diesel are dirty polluting fuels that need many additives to work.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Ethanol Is a Dirty, Polluting Fuel That Causes Much Environmental Damage To Produce.
Posted by: Douglas
» "Squirgly." My word for the day! :-) nt
Posted by: particle
» RE: eactions here are interesting
Posted by: Krain61
» My reaction
Posted by: AdamG
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Mar 5, 2007 6:26 AM
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In the end ethanol, which does not address all of its own attendant costs or the unsustainable costs it shares with our current situation.
Ethanol is not a solution because it is trying to solve a problem.. making industrialized society sustainable.. that has no solution.
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» RE: In the end...
Posted by: HeroesAll
» Yes, we face that problem.. as well as...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Yes, we face that problem.. as well as...
Posted by: JimTheAnarchist
» RE: Yes, we face that problem.. as well as...
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: In the end...
Posted by: cinattra
» Without Government Subsidies It Would Be Unprofitable To Produce And Sell Ethanol!
Posted by: Douglas
» RE: Without Government Subsidies It Would Be Unprofitable To Produce And Sell Ethanol!
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» The US Should Tax Fossil Fuels and Ethanol (After Eliminating Ethanol Subsidies)!!
Posted by: Douglas
» RE: The US Should Tax Fossil Fuels and Ethanol (After Eliminating Ethanol Subsidies)!!
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
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Posted by: deanwj on Mar 5, 2007 6:44 AM
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However the ethanol production from corn isn't sufficient to make it pay. Crops with higher sugar or starch content per acre would do much better, like potatoes, sugar beets, mangle beets, Jerusalem artichokes to name a few would be much more efficient. Ethanol production per acre for corn is a mere 354 gallons per acre, while Sugar beets can produce over 700 gallons per acre.
These single crop corn farmers would do well to look at other crops and enzymes that can reduce cellulose to sugar.
Dean W. Johnson
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Posted by: anthroman on Mar 5, 2007 6:53 AM
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Anyways, as for the ethanol v. food argument, it should be irrelevant. It will never be economical and will most likely end up in a net energy loss if we concentrate ethanol and biofuel production on grain crops. Corn needs so much nitrogen and water to grow that the inputs it requires will never be sustainable. Hemp would be our best option as a biofuel source because of the fact it needs no to very little inputs, grows fast, and can grow in relatively poor soils. It is little known that Henry Ford made a prototype model T that ran on hemp oil. However, he scraped that once the United States outlawed the plant, with the help of the oil and cotton industries.
Furthermore, we cannot put all of our eggs in the biofuel basket. No matter what crops are used it will never be able to replace our current energy use. We are going to have to get serious and critically look at the amount and ways we use energy in our daily lifestyles. Biofuels will be part of the post-fossil fuel economy, but only part. We need big changes in how we power our homes (move away from the current power grid with one huge producer to one that has a network of many individual produces using solar and wind), produces food (more local), and most of all our lifestyles and settlement patterns (saying bye, bye to suburban and car centered living).
Articles like this do nothing to advance the move to a post-fossil fuel economy by not getting to the heart of the issue.
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» Alternet IGNORES Hemp and allows trash authors to get away with it too.
Posted by: maxpayne
» Hemp still doesn't answer the questions of industrialisms unsustainability
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» So what's your solution, if you even have one, loser?
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: So what's your solution, if you even have one, loser?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: So what's your solution, if you even have one, loser?
Posted by: Krain61
» And by the way, Hemp does actually address sustainability, loser.
Posted by: maxpayne
» No, it doesn't.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Wrong again. You didn't even read the article. Stop siding with the DEA and grow some balls.
Posted by: Jason Jordan
» Update: Now I see what you're referring to.
Posted by: Jason Jordan
» Don't put words in my mouth, Jason.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Ok... to clarify...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Growing Crops To Fuel Cars Is Unsustainable Regardless Of The Crop Grown!
Posted by: Douglas
» I'm all for conservation but from city folks I've talked to, they get PUNISHED for doing it.
Posted by: Jason Jordan
» RE: Bicycles Are "Fuel Efficient Vehicles" And Keep You In Shape And Looking Good!
Posted by: Jason Jordan
» RE: Bicycles
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» If people can ride bikes nearly everywhere in Boston...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Mar 5, 2007 7:13 AM
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Grow whatever you want on your farm, but don't tell me what to grow on my little plot of earth..
Incidentally, I agree with the premise (but obviously not the spirit) of our authoritarian author--that public funds have no business going into subsidizing the ethanol industry. Even if we turned every bit of arable land into corn-to-ethanol "factories", we'd still only produce enough ethanol to displace 12% of our oil consumption.
If ethanol entrepreneurs can find a way to turn a buck without leveraging the contributions of every last one of the shrinking number of taxpayers in this country to do so, then so be it. In the meantime, we should absolutely be up in (figurative) arms over the prospect of the poor fiscal decisions to subsidize another unproductive, ill-considered, inefficient government-dependent industry.
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Posted by: rwa on Mar 5, 2007 7:24 AM
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High grain prices are threatening the nascent biofuels industry, raising input costs and making the fuel less economic compared with oil.
Agricultural commodity prices have reached long-term highs in recent days, based on forecasts of hot and dry weather conditions this year in the US which could result in lower grain yields. This comes after oil prices have fallen by a quarter from their record peaks last year.
Corn prices reached another 10-year high for the second successive day when it touched $4.31 a bushel, up five cents on the day. But the doubling of corn, a main feedstock for US ethanol producers, over the past year at a time when oil prices are at the same level they were 12 months ago has raised questions over the viability of the biofuels industry without heavy government support...
Earlier this week, production problems were reported at a biofuels plant in Spain jointly owned by Abengoa and Ebro Puleva. The plant was reported to be running below capacity and a halt in production was under consideration. But Ebro Puleva said the plant was guaranteed feed stock into March, though it admitted that the high cereal prices were squeezing operating margins.
Sophie Justice, director and head of renewables at RBC Capital Markets, said that rising grain prices were one of the biggest issues for biofuels companies. She said: “There is a real risk to these companies from the higher prices. The more uncertainty in the feed stock prices, the more the economics of biofuels are challenged.”
She said it showed that the biofuels industry was still heavily dependent on government subsidies in most countries.
The biofuels industries in the US and Europe are cushioned against market prices by heavy government subsidies, which lessen the impact of higher grain prices...
Brazil is the world’s biggest producer of ethanol, and its industry will be unaffected by high grain prices because its producers use sugar cane rather than wheat. Converting sugar to ethanol is more efficient than using wheat, and Brazilian companies are widely acknowledged to be the world leaders in efficient techniques to convert sugar cane to fuel.
Concerns over biofuels supply have prompted the US to start discussions with Brazil over ways to create a global market for biofuels by promoting common standards, according to reports. Mr Bush will meet Brazil’s Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva in March. But the US has so far refused to budge from its tariff of 54 cents a gallon imposed on ethanol imports into the US.
Although biofuels have been presented as a way of reducing greenhouse gas emissions, because the plants from which they are derived absorb carbon dioxide from the air as they grow, many environmental groups have begun questioning policies to increase biofuels usage.
This is because some of the countries planning to produce more biofuels are destroying rainforest to make room for plantations to grow palm oil, sugar cane or other biofuel crops. Other experts have questioned the energy savings produced by using biofuels, which require energy input to convert them from plants to fuels, and in the form of fertiliser to grow the crops..
The Financial Times
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Posted by: cobblepot1 on Mar 5, 2007 7:26 AM
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Mar 5, 2007 7:36 AM
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Issue #1: Industrial fossil-fueled agriculture is completely unsustainable, regardless of whether you are growing food or fuel or both. The only solution is to move towards sustainable agriculture, which means using solar and wind power and traditional crop rotation and soil maintenance that maintain soil nutrients. Most industrial agriculture is simply hydroponics - a dead soil matrix that is flooded with petrochemical-sourced fertilizers, fungicides and herbicides. The net energy input to industrial farms is far greater than the food output - and that can be changed, but only with a deliberate focussed program to do so.
Issue #2: As every researcher who studies this would tell you, corn-based ethanol is near the bottom of the list of preferred ethanol sources. Brazil's sugarcane method is sustainable and requires no fossil fuel inputs, yet Midwestern ethanol producers and their senators make sure that Brazilian ethanol can't be imported to the US (there are no such constraints on fossil fuel imports!) Free trade? Right. There is also the even more promising approach of cellulose-based ethanol from portions of crops that used to be burned - rice straw, wheat straw, and cornstalks.
Issue#3 - The author ignores the real dynamic of US industrial agribusiness - the corn is mostly fed to hogs and chickens on factory farms (over 55% of US corn production goes to this). The next largest share is sent to other countries under unfair NAFTA trade rules; this practice has devastated local Mexican economies, driven farmers off their land, and is probably the main factor behind all the immigration pressures. It's really a very poorly written article that ignores basic facts.
Issue#4 - The SUV is not the preferred vehicle. This is the easiest area to make imporvements - the difference between a 12 mpg SUV and a 72 mpg hybrid is very large - a 600% increase in efficiency. You can also build hybrid trucks - but what doers all this mean? A vast reduction in demand for fossil fuels - and the fossil fuel importers do everything they can to stimulate demand.
Issue #5 - the massive public relations presence of the fossil fuel lobby and their associates. Look at what they've done on the issue of global warming - hundreds of millions have been spent on front organizations who attack climate science, on political lobbying, on a massive program of lies and deceptions that tops anything the tobacco lobby tried to do. Do you really think that they would ignore the issue of renewable solar-based fuels? Ethanol is just one such fuel; there are technologies that can essentially make gasoline-like molecules using solar power inputs, for example; the fossil fuel system relies on keeping people hooked on petroleum. Of course they'd spend millions on a PR program that attacks biofuels.
There are three serious threats to the dominance of fossil fuels: (1) awareness of global warming and climate change, (2) the rise of renewable biofuels and solar fuels, and (3) vast increases in the efficiency of the global transportation fleet. They are doing everything they can think of to maintain demand (and to control supply)- look at how the Democrat's promise to end subsidies for fossil fuels was immediately gutted (they own Democrats, as well as Bush, Cheney, Rice, etc.). After all, what's the point in controlling Iraqi oil if noone wants to buy it?
In short, this article should have be preceded by the statement, "this is an advertisement".
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» RE: That question is nonsense based on false premises
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» RE: That question is nonsense based on false premises
Posted by: Krain61
» If You Don't Like The Message, Attack The Messenger! Insist He Represents Evil, Nefarious Interests!
Posted by: Douglas
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Posted by: rwa on Mar 5, 2007 7:37 AM
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Posted by: SteveO on Mar 5, 2007 7:43 AM
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BTW Fischer Tropsch conversion is much more efficent than cuurent fermentation/distillation based ethanol production, but ADM doesn't have a stake in that so the feds won't promote it.
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on Mar 5, 2007 8:06 AM
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Companies like Iogen have apparently developed a practical way to reduce the inedible portions (such as the stalks and dried leaves of corn) to ethanol using an enzymatic process.
The total amount of fuel that can be generated this way will not replace oil but it can alleviate a part of oil usage until there is time to adjust to a better way.
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Mar 5, 2007 9:01 AM
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Item: TXU Corp., the Texas-based utility, and its prospective buyout partners, Kohlberg Kravis and Texas Pacific, have gotten great press for pledging not to build five or six of the 11 coal-fired generating plants they were planning.
By getting the support of some green groups for scaled-back construction plans that the company never should have entertained in the first place, TXU gets their blessing for this $43 billion buyout deal. TXU and its buyers succeeded in changing the subject -- from TXU's monopoly power, the huge rate increases that have hit Texas consumers, and the lack of transparency for a deal that will create even more monopoly power and rate hikes. Guess which kind of green this belated conversion is really about?
This is not the first time that some environmentalists have served as corporate enablers of electricity deregulation and buyout deals that gouged consumers. One such deal got some environmental commitments in exchange for California's massive deregulation, which opened the door to Enron's abuses.
Hear, hear.
Now we've got this poorly written hit piece on biofuels, which you can be sure the oil importers just love. The last line of this article is illuminating: motor fuel, of which we already have an abundant supply?
That 'abundant supply' is a blatant mistatement of the facts; every year, the US imports more and more oil from all over the world, and the US military is used to go into places like Iraq and Africa in order to guarantee that the control of the supply is maintained. The imperial aggression of Bush&Co. entirely revolves around capturing the world's oil supplies (the same was true of Japan imperialism in the Pacific, and German imperialism in WWII, and British imperialism in the early 20th century in Iran and Iraq.)
Very poor showing, as I hope you recognize. Quit publishing what the fossil fuel lobby loves to read, would you? Tell people the truth.
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» RE: What is it with Alternet's environmental reporting?
Posted by: mwildfire
» thoughtethanol always smears opponents of ethanol as "front persons" for the fossil fuel lobby!
Posted by: Douglas
» thoughtethanol smears others even as he is faithfully parroting Ethanol Lobby propaganda!!!
Posted by: Douglas
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Posted by: Leadbyexample on Mar 5, 2007 9:43 AM
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» Both You And thoughtethanol Have It Exactly Wrong!! To Save The Environment, Give Up Your Cars!!
Posted by: Douglas
» You need to get your eyes checked
Posted by: Leadbyexample
» You Need To Actually Lead By Example, Not Just Appropriate The Name!!!
Posted by: Douglas
» Douglas.... the eco-judge
Posted by: Leadbyexample
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Posted by: djnoll on Mar 5, 2007 11:50 AM
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1. In 2007 the US will be becomes the largest importer of food in the world. Folks, we cannot even feed ourselves anymore. This means that we have become an unsustainable society.
2. That ethanol is an inefficient fuel in relation to fossil fuels. This is absolutely correct, and to produce enough of any food crop (corn, sugar beets, or hemp) to fuel all the cars in the US, much less the world, we would need every square inch of arable land to do it.
Here is another fact in case anyone is interested: We are losing approximately 1,000,000 acres of land per year while our population is expected to double within the next 50 years, or less. Let's see - less land, more people, reliance on other nations for food, oil depletion, global warming, economic depression - the perfect storm should hit in about 10 years!
So as we all sit here and wring our hands about hemp vs. corn; ethanol vs. biodeisel vs. solar; industrial agriculture vs organic, biointensive agriculture, our society is falling apart. I am not particularly interested in rebuilding other nations' economies or feeding their people while our economy collapses and our people go hungry. I am interested in educating people to the dangers we all face, here in the US, and how we can change things.
The more I study and the more I learn about issues like this the more I realize that unless we get out there and educate people and make them willing to make radical changes in their lives, it will not matter if we have ethanol or food, because we will have neither, and that will be the end of the story.
Consider this: a horse or pony costs about $1000; tack and/or a small pony cart costs about $5000; annual feed, stabling, and vet bills runs about $3500 (approximate figures only depending on location). This means an initial investment of $6000, and annual upkeep of $3500 as opposed to a new Prius at $32,000 and annual upkeep, incl. fuel, of nearly $3000. The horse or pony will live about 17 years, but the Prius will be obsolete in 10 or less. You tell me which is more economic and which is the better use of renewable fuels. Oh, by the way, the horse or pony provides a byproduct the Prius does not: fertilizer for an organic garden or two, while a Prius does not. This is the future we may all face if we want to get somewhere or eat. I do not think anyone is willing to accept that, but in a society that is non-sustainable and facing collapse, that will be the result.
So, instead of debating about fuel or food production, we should be asking our local governments to preserve land for food production only; demanding public transportation that can be run on solar; demand public utilities be required to buy back power, regardless of whether they are regulated or not, from farms that are willing to set aside roof tops or land for wind or solar production as well as residential housing using solar shingles; and start demanding that our children be taught about sustainable options, then actively pursue them in our homes - organic gardens instead of fancy trees; limited car use (get bikes or walk or neighborhood carpooling or sharing); create neighborhoods where everyone knows everyone to insure safety for our children; work together to create social change that allows for these things to happen. We will not be able fix everything overnight, but if we do not start right now working to change things, we will never be able to at all, and then you will get to watch your children go hungry because you will not have any car to go to the store, but it will not matter because the store won't have any food either.
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» RE: It May All Be A Moot Point
Posted by: Krain61
» RE: It May All Be A Moot Point
Posted by: djnoll
» A few more points in support of the horse
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: A few more points in support of the horse
Posted by: djnoll
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Posted by: rwa on Mar 5, 2007 12:25 PM
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http://www.llnl.gov/str/Durham.html
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» Still...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Still...
Posted by: rwa
» RE: Still...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Under-reported reality
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Under-reported reality
Posted by: rwa
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Posted by: Krain61 on Mar 5, 2007 12:48 PM
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» and when we're done with all of those technofixes...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: and when we're done with all of those technofixes...
Posted by: Krain61
» Actually, Krain...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Sorry, that first line should read "realistic" solutions of your own...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Actually, Krain...
Posted by: Krain61
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Posted by: Krain61 on Mar 5, 2007 12:57 PM
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I was always told for every action there is a re-action.
But in this case there maybe not just global warming but if you think about it how much less does our earth weigh now after billion of barrels of oil have been removed not including the coal.
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Posted by: godsouza on Mar 5, 2007 1:22 PM
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In the 80s when I didn't have a car my round trip commute by bicycle was 44 miles. If I took 45 miles for five days as a rough number including side trips I get 468 miles to the gallon.
45x5x52/25=468
In this period I also rode my bike ot the Jasper Ice Fields from San Jose CA but I ate tons of ice cream on that trip.
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Posted by: Jason Jordan on Mar 5, 2007 4:26 PM
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Funny, Alternet does not even mention that yet they give credit to corporate liars who pretend to be turning a new leaf on the environment.
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» RE: And what about Zero Energy Design homes?
Posted by: Leadbyexample
» RE: And what about Zero Energy Design homes?
Posted by: Jason Jordan
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Posted by: drblack on Mar 5, 2007 7:08 PM
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Hemp or marijuana will grow almost anywhere and if the flowers and leaves are tilled back into the soil only one fertilizer application is required for an ongoing production.
There was a complete plan of this worked out by an engineer in the 70's. I think his book was called "Solar Gas" and his name was David Gold. I am not sure of the names but I do remember that the info was well researched and had been done on a small scale.
Hemp is the greatest producer of bio-mass per-acre. This is why it is the best crop for ethanol. Also ,since the nitrogen is all in the leaves and flowers ,by turning these back into the soil the need for fertilizer is extremely low after the first crop.
Also ethanol emits co2 and water when burned:but the co2 released from ethanol from hemp will be reabsorbed by the next crop of hemp.
This could put small family farms back in business ,but the big petro companies will not support it.
First we all must get our government to repeal prohibition. Only then will small family farms be able to grow hemp and use solar stills to produce ethanol for local consumption.
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Posted by: yisforyeti on Mar 5, 2007 7:58 PM
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Optimistic estimates for the amount of ethanol that can be produced from corn top out at about 400 gallons per acre per year. Conservative estimates for algae biodiesel production exceed 10,000 gallons per acre per year. No, that is not a mistake. Check it out.
In addition, algae require neither arable land nor potable water. It can (and often is) grown in the desert, where there is ample sunlight to help increase the rate of production, and many strains can be grown on salt water or waste water.
The current debate on whether or not it's reasonable or even viable to use corn or beets as a source of fuel will continue until one of two things happens: 1) The technology of farming algae in large quantities develops on its own to the point of being impossible to ignore, or 2) we make it impossible to ignore now and get the ball rolling.
So who wants to write their senator?
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Posted by: cbcb on Mar 6, 2007 2:24 AM
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» RE: Just something I noticed -- Yeah, me too.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» RE: Just something I noticed -- Yeah, me too.
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» You talk the talk, Benjaminsjw. Do you walk the walk?
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» RE: You talk the talk, Benjaminsjw. Do you walk the walk?
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» If overpopulation cancels out every "sustainable" thing we do, why the deafening silence??
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» How about planning the plan?
Posted by: Beck
» RE: How about planning the plan? -- Beck, I've answered your questions many times.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
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Posted by: richholland on Mar 6, 2007 3:38 AM
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A small number of people made good money.
Surinam was ruled by one Coorporation and even a more profitable solution was found; buy black slaves in Africa.
The poor whites and blacks were treated in an abhorrent way.
But the shareholders made money.
And this is what GOD wanted was told to the people.
And if you free the slaves all people will be hungry was told.
However around 1795 the Coorporation went banckrupt although the Dutch state subsidized for milliones.
So if the Greenies want ethanol or energie from chicken shit and Ralf Nadar and Al Gore become both President of the USA and the Free World and the Universe but your production system is based on Profitmaking Capitalistic Coorporations
nothing changes
And the poor escape into starvation and Islamic faith and the overweighted American will should Terrorists...Terrorists
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» RE: change of lifestyle, forget it
Posted by: jonwert
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Posted by: guybjones on Mar 6, 2007 5:18 AM
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Ethanol fits perfectly into this scheme. I won't even get into the absurdity of using cropland to grow fuel for automobiles, nor the widely accepted scientific opinion that the energy required to sow, fertilize, harvest, transport and convert organic material into ethanol requires consumption of far more petroleum energy than ethanol saves. And forget the fact that, as mentioned in the article, even a mass use of cropland for ethanol purposes wouldn't create enough of the stuff to even make a dent in our oil consumption.
It's telling that the steps that would be the easiest for the U.S. to implement, and have the greatest environmental impact - mass transit investment, increased auto fuel efficiency standards, tax incentives for consumers who buy efficient vehicles - are the ones we're not willing to make.
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» Its not that WE are willing to take them...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Its not that WE are willing to take them...
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» I do nothing about it?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: I do nothing about it? -- Don't take it personally.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» RE: I do nothing about it? -- Don't take it personally.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: I do nothing about it? -- Don't take it personally. I've gone through this many times.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
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Posted by: pphelps on Mar 7, 2007 5:15 PM
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» Ever notice how SUVs ads appeal to toughness & wimpiness at the same time?
Posted by: Pat Kittle
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Posted by: Lazerai on Mar 8, 2007 3:35 PM
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Studies done by the USDE in the 80s illustrated that strains of algae contains up to 50% vegetable oil by weight could be grown using contaminated farm run off, other strains have been shown to grow well in brackish or salt water. Some recent projects have grown algae in water and fertilized with CO2 from industrial pollution sources. The remaining mass after the oil is pressed out of this algae? Cellulose. So your growing fuel and cleaning up pollutants at the same time! Additionally, systems keep getting more efficient. The synthesis of these idea, if encouraged, could create an actual solution rather than a bunch of self-righteous vitriol.
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» RE: Shouting instead of debating
Posted by: Blade
» RE: Shouting instead of debating
Posted by: yisforyeti
Trial Begins for Activist Who Fought to Protect Federal Lands from Drilling -- Join the Protest
California Carbon Trading Allows Timber Companies to Sell CO2 Credits for Their Worst Logging Practices
How to Answer the Dumb Things Climate Deniers Say




