COMMENTS: 207
Meat Is a Global Warming Issue
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What many people do not know, however, is that the production of meat also significantly increases global warming. Cow farms produce millions of tons of carbon dioxide (CO2) and methane per year, the two major greenhouse gases that together account for more than 90 percent of U.S. greenhouse emissions, substantially contributing to "global scorching."
According to the United Nations Environment Program's Unit on Climate Change, "There is a strong link between human diet and methane emissions from livestock." The 2004 State of the World is more specific regarding the link between animals raised for meat and global warming: "Belching, flatulent livestock emit 16 percent of the world's annual production of methane, a powerful greenhouse gas."
The July 2005 issue of Physics World states: "The animals we eat emit 21 percent of all the CO2 that can be attributed to human activity." Eating meat directly contributes to this environmentally irresponsible industry and the dire threat of global warming.
Additionally, rainforests are being cut down at an extremely rapid rate to both pasture cows and grow soybeans to feed cows. The clear-cutting of trees in the rainforest -- an incredibly bio-diverse area with 90 percent of all species on Earth -- not only creates more greenhouse gases through the process of destruction, but also reduces the amazing benefits that those trees provide. Rainforests have been called the "lungs of the Earth," because they filter our air by absorbing CO2, while emitting life-supporting oxygen.
"In a nutshell," according to the Center for International Forestry Research, "cattle ranchers are making mincemeat out of Brazil's Amazon rainforests."
Of course, the U.S. should join the other 163 countries in ratifying the Kyoto Protocol. Of course, we should sharply reduce our reliance on fossil fuels and shift towards renewable sources of energy. Of course, we need to stop destroying the rainforests. Of course, we need to stop the war in Iraq and drastically reduce the U.S. military budget (presently at half of the entire world's total military spending), which would increase, not decrease, national and global security. But as we're struggling and waiting for these and other structural changes, we need to make personal changes.
Geophysicists Gidon Eshel and Pamela Martin from the University of Chicago concluded that changing one's eating habits from the Standard American Diet (SAD) to a vegetarian diet does more to fight global warming than switching from a gas-guzzling SUV to a fuel-efficient hybrid car. Of course, you can do both. Where the environment is concerned, eating meat is like driving a huge SUV. According to Eshel, eating a vegetarian diet is like driving a mid-sized car or a reasonable sedan, and eating a vegan diet (no dairy, no eggs) is like riding a bicycle or walking. Shifting away from SUVs and SUV-style diets, to much more energy-efficient alternatives, is key to fighting the warming trend.
Global warming is already having grave effects on our planet. Vegetarians help keep the planet cool in more ways than one. Paul McCartney says, "If anyone wants to save the planet, all they have to do is just stop eating meat. That's the single most important thing you could do." Andrea Gordon, in her article "If You Recycle, Why Are You Eating Meat?" agrees: "There is a direct relationship between eating meat and the environment. Quite simply, you can't be a meat-eating environmentalist. Sorry folks."
Vegetarianism is literally about life and death -- for each of us individually and for all of us together. Eating animals simultaneously contributes to a multitude of tragedies: the animals' suffering and death; the ill-health and early death of people; the unsustainable overuse of oil, water, land, topsoil, grain, labor and other vital resources; environmental destruction, including deforestation, species extinction, mono-cropping and global warming; the legitimacy of force and violence; the mis-allocation of capital, skills, land and other assets; vast inefficiencies in the economy; tremendous waste; massive inequalities in the world; the continuation of world hunger and mass starvation; the transmission and spread of dangerous diseases; and moral failure in so-called civilized societies. Vegetarianism is an antidote to all of these unnecessary tragedies.
The editors of World Watch concluded in the July/August 2004 edition that "the human appetite for animal flesh is a driving force behind virtually every major category of environmental damage now threatening the human future -- deforestation, erosion, fresh water scarcity, air and water pollution, climate change, biodiversity loss, social injustice, the destabilization of communities and the spread of disease." Lee Hall, the legal director for Friends of Animals, is more succinct: "Behind virtually every great environmental complaint there's milk and meat."
Global warming may be the most serious global social problem threatening life on Earth. We need to fight global warming on the governmental and corporate levels, and we also need to fight global warming on the everyday and personal levels. Now we need to fight global warming -- with our forks.
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Posted by: USUK on Aug 24, 2006 12:28 AM
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Feeding all the people of the world.
Personal health and longevity.
It's better for the animals you didn't kill.
Would anyone in their right mind kill and eat mammals?
Would anyone in their right mind kill and eat babies?
USUK because your two countries are parasites.
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» RE: Killing animals, the planet and lots of people.
Posted by: marklar
» RE: Killing animals, the planet and lots of people.
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Killing animals, the planet and lots of people.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Killing animals, the planet and lots of people.
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Real costs.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Killing animals & babies-USUK, actually babies are
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: Killing animals, the planet and lots of people.
Posted by: JuanPeron
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Posted by: rsaxto on Aug 24, 2006 1:48 AM
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» RE: cold turkey
Posted by: quissy
» RE: cold turkey --- ozone hole --- sea of oil
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: cold turkey --- ozone hole --- sea of oil
Posted by: Aimee
» RE: cold turkey --- ozone hole --- sea of oil
Posted by: quissy
» RE: cold turkey --- ozone hole --- sea of oil
Posted by: symcokid
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Molly W on Aug 24, 2006 4:17 AM
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I work with small scale farmers as manager of a farmers' market. One of our vendors has very small herds of beef and dairy cattle, as well as chickens. All their animals are pastured. They raise about everything they eat, all their protein and fat come from the farm. The animals provide fertilizer for the garden. Actually, there is less loss of life on a pastured meat farm than on a farm growing soybeans for soymilk--on a pasture, one steer (and maybe some bugs) sacrifices its life to sustain others, while in a soybean or canola field growing beans/seeds to make tofu or oil for a vegan, huge amounts of wildlife habitat are lost, not even to mention the birds, mice, voles, etc that are killed when huge tractors go through the field.
I used to be vegan because I believed misinformation like that spouted by Brook. I know now that my diet is much more sustainable and humane than when I was dependent on soy and other processed veg foods. Ethical meat eating is at the forefront of the food and agriculture revolution in America, so I was surprised to see this one-sided, biased article from Alternet. Brook's theory is about 30 years outdated.
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» RE: Misinformation...again
Posted by: Catwoman
» RE: Misinformation...again
Posted by: woogawooga
» RE: Misinformation...again
Posted by: Catwoman
» Another aspect
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Another aspect
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Misinformation...again
Posted by: woogawooga
» RE: Misinformation...again
Posted by: brad
» RE: Misinformation...again
Posted by: Molly W
» RE: Misinformation...again
Posted by: Catwoman
» RE: Misinformation...again
Posted by: festernaecus
» RE: Misinformation...again
Posted by: Catwoman
» RE: Misinformation...again
Posted by: toddaa
» Throw-away
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Misinformation...again
Posted by: aebartle
» Soybeans
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Misinformation...again
Posted by: It'sTheFood
» RE: Misinformation...again
Posted by: babs
» RE: Misinformation...again
Posted by: It'sTheFood
» Our bodies, ourselves
Posted by: YogiBear
» Answer to your questions
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» What a flawed argument
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: What a flawed argument
Posted by: festernaecus
» I respect your honesty
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: I respect your honesty
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: I respect your honesty
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Quote me "all the studies" which say vegetarianism is better for every single person
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: What a flawed argument
Posted by: aebartle
» RE: What a flawed argument
Posted by: babs
» RE: What a flawed argument
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Isnt' "eating meat ethically" kind of an oxymoron?
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Isnt' "eating meat ethically" kind of an oxymoron?
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Isnt' "eating meat ethically" kind of an oxymoron?
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» But I support your right to your faith!
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: But I support your right to your faith!
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Dick's boy
Posted by: wereallfukked
» RE: Dick's boy
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» P.S.
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Perpetual problem here...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Hemp, demand hemp
Posted by: aonghus36
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Rbuck on Aug 24, 2006 5:57 AM
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It behoves the progressives to be more discerning and accurate at naming a problem to be fixed. There is no simple answer, there is no simple problem, but there are things we each can do to relieve the situation.
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» RE: The problem is not meat
Posted by: Catwoman
» RE: The problem is not meat
Posted by: ConnecttheDots
» RE: The problem is not meat
Posted by: Catwoman
» Perhaps it's evolutionary
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Perhaps it's evolutionary
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Perhaps it's evolutionary
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: The problem is not meat
Posted by: marklar
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Posted by: brad on Aug 24, 2006 6:13 AM
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Now conversely I am not one of those who aspires to turn a political issue, what we accept as farming, distributing and treating practices is a political issue, into a personal choice/free market issue. It is not simply about my personal choices, it is about how we as a collective society want to live. By simply advocating personal consumer choice changes one actually strengthens the argument of free market ideologues who want to leave society up to "markets". A twofold stratigie is needed, one that involves personal choices and political action.
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Posted by: Liger on Aug 24, 2006 6:58 AM
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» Yep! God wants us to kill!
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Aren't people also made out of meat?
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: Aren't people also made out of meat?
Posted by: joy7
» RE: Aren't people also made out of meat?
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: Aren't people also made out of meat?
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Aren't people also made out of meat?
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Aren't people also made out of meat?
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Animals are good... Aliens love to come to Earth to eat white people with mustard
Posted by: Aimee
» RE: Animals are good eating ... Aliens love to come to Earth to eat white people with Ale.
Posted by: symcokid
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Aimee on Aug 24, 2006 6:59 AM
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We are killing ourselves. STOP eating meat. Cows, chickens, pigs, turkeys. DEAD MEAT is not good for humans or for our home: Earth.
Peace, and Good Luck,
Aimee
Vegetarian for over 30 years.
www.dataoptions.com
PS: for those who do not believe there is a global climate change problem - well, good luck to you. Those who do not pay attention will wonder what happened when it is too late. Actually, it is already too late. Good luck.
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» RE: Meat Is a Global Warming Issue - water is being used for meat
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: Meat Is a Global Warming Issue - water is being used for meat
Posted by: Aimee
» RE: Meat Is a Global Warming Issue - water is being used for meat
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: Meat Is a Global Warming Issue - water is being used for meat
Posted by: Aimee
» Meat Is a Global Warming Issue
Posted by: YogiBear
» We are supposedly a government by the people for the people
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: We are supposedly a government by the people for the people
Posted by: Aimee
» RE: Meat Is a Global Warming Issue - water is being used for meat
Posted by: mnlefty
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Ricki on Aug 24, 2006 7:31 AM
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» RE: What a piece of garbage
Posted by: Catwoman
» RE: What a piece of garbage
Posted by: therabshakeh
» RE: What a piece of garbage
Posted by: Ricki
» RE: What a piece of garbage
Posted by: Ulfhethner
» RE: What a piece of garbage
Posted by: Ricki
» RE: What a piece of garbage
Posted by: Ulfhethner
» RE: What a piece of garbage
Posted by: Ricki
» RE: What a piece of garbage
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: What a piece of garbage
Posted by: Ricki
» RE: What a piece of garbage
Posted by: bodhisattva
» RE: What a piece of garbage
Posted by: Ricki
» RE: What a piece of garbage
Posted by: Jarmadi
» RE: What a piece of garbage
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» You were more polite....
Posted by: sirossisofliver
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Posted by: WhuThe?!? on Aug 24, 2006 7:39 AM
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Any form of flesh, especially cow flesh, is very inefficient from an energy point of view. It takes several pounds of plant protein to produce a pound of animal protein. Therefore, the meat-based diet consumes many times the soil, water and energy resources as is necessary, all for personal pleasure, as meat is not necessary for human survival. From an environmental point of view, meat consumption is not ethical. If anything else, frequent flesh consumption is unethical. If everybody would at least quit making dead animals the base of their diet, and greatly decrease their consumption, the world would become a better place. Vegetarianism, preferably veganism (no animal products whatsoever) is the solution to many of our environmental ills, however since most meat eaters don't care enough to, or can't seem to overcome their addiction, they should at least not purchase corporately-raised meat. Our government subsidizes the monocropping of water and chemical-intensive corn of which 80% is fed to cows, and that is very wrong. In fact, in states like Kansas, Arkansas, Nebraska, Colorado and Wyoming, the water wars have already begun. If people were to quit supporting the meat industry (and therefore the monocrop-corn industry), our limited water, land and air resources upon which future generations will depend would be in much better shape. And I include air because an incredible amount of fossil fuels are consumed, which release heat-trapping carbon dioxide, in the use of tractors, the production of chemical fertilizers, and the pumping of irrigation water, all part of the production of animals for consumption. In addition, the methane produced by corporately-raised cows is extremely high because they are fed a diet to which cows did not evolve. It is not natural for cows to consume massive amounts of corn grain; they normally consume grasses. Corn produces a lot of flatulence in cows, and methane (flatulence) is, like carbon dioxide, a heat-trapping gas.
We should all be working towards vegetarian diets. Increased personal and environmental health and less cruelty towards our fellow creatures is a good thing. If people truly care about the future of this planet and its inhabitants, they should refuse to support the cruel, unhealthy, environmentally-unsound corporate meat industries by becoming vegetarians, or minimally, only consuming organic and/or range-raised meat.
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» RE: Great article!
Posted by: Aimee
» Overpopulated?
Posted by: edith
» Saddle Up!
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Do vegans have kids?
Posted by: YogiBear
» Come on! You can do better than that!
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Come on! You can do better than that!
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Overpopulated?
Posted by: ConnecttheDots
» RE: Overpopulated?
Posted by: Ulfhethner
Comments are closed-
Posted by: historystudent on Aug 24, 2006 8:00 AM
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Posted by: brad on Aug 24, 2006 8:03 AM
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As a vegetarian, vegan for about 8 years, my diet is not made up of alot of soy. I know this is what many meat eaters think, but it is just untrue. When I owned my farm, my wife and I grew about 90% of what we ate, with the remaining 10% split between other local foods and nonlocal oils and such. The same inability to look at local sustainable choices you site in this column you yourself fail to apply to vegetarians. My farm was surrounded by organic grass fed ranches and the argument that there was more biodiversity on their pastures than my fields is simply not true. The organic wheat that grew adjacent to my farm had more wildlife than any pasture, while producing about ten times the food output.
A big problem in all of these anti-veg arguments is that they base their analysis on the false notion that there is enough room for everyone to eat meat three times a day, on the fact that grass fed beef uses more land than factory farming which uses way more land than grains or veggies. It is based on the fallacy that we can all move to the country and raise our own food, or that we can convert all of our protein needs to pastured meat. It simply cannot be done, we cannot feed all of the people in the city with pastured meat, we would need to convert the whole planet to pasture. I am sorry but I do think the world needs wilderness and forests.
Now if we converted the pastures and factory farms to produce high protein grains and vegiges we would have far more farm land than we need, it would create the ability to have more local producers and could reestablish alot of wilderness and forest to combate global warming and reduce species loss.
All of this overlooks the social and political aspects of the issue and attempts to reduce it to an individual choice/market based decision. The whole debate should have been made simpler years ago by phasing out chemical and heavy fossil fuel dependent farming years ago. Instead we get market based decisions that tie our hands and limit our options.
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» Thank you.
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» To MatthewSavage
Posted by: WitchyNy
» I really enjoyed your post
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
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Posted by: enriquethepenguin on Aug 24, 2006 8:37 AM
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As such, our short lives have come at a fortunate time as we are just starting our decent. Our only recourse is to enjoy life as best we can now; quality of life is all we have left. And, for me and my family, that means enjoying a new york strip and drinking a good pinot while watching the twilight of our species' existence.
The ship is sinking. You can toil and suffer and eat your lima beans while it goes down. I choose to dig into a bacon-wrapped filet mignon and at least enjoy the ride while I can.
I may sound defeatist and cynical, but I'm not. I'm a realist. It's just that all the evidence points to defeat.
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» RE: Quality of Life is the Point
Posted by: misterpunch
» your missing the point
Posted by: starchild
» RE: Quality of Life is the Point
Posted by: sirossisofliver
» And nearly everybody is either asleep or shares your mentality,
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
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Posted by: CyberBrook on Aug 24, 2006 9:14 AM
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Also see www.eatkind.net/inconvenient.htm for another take on another inconvenient truth.
This EarthSave Report is also worthwhile:
www.earthsave.org/globalwarming.htm
(please share this info with others)
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Posted by: sirossisofliver on Aug 24, 2006 9:35 AM
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Geeez! Anyone up for a 'double-trouble' with cheese'?
Sir Ossis
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» RE: What A Load Of Crap!!!
Posted by: richardschwartz
» It's really quite simple
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
Comments are closed-
Posted by: marklar on Aug 24, 2006 9:53 AM
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With that said, why don't we eat people yet? I admit there are issues some people would have with it but if we treated the ordeal as a great delicacy and marketed it right I think it would be a hit. There are plenty to go around and the way global warming is squeezing us together it could serve an urgent need to find a place for overpopulation. It would offer a whole new twist to eating out, or, having Mexican, or Chinese. It would satisfy the urge for Americans to dominate humanity even further, and we could probably put a huge dent in the illegal immigration issue and that would make Lou Dobbs very happy. We could even offer regional specialties like, for New England we could offer Blue Blood specials with clam chowder and a good wine and charge a hefty price per plate. Or, in Hawaii we could dine on orginal native dishes with pineapple and sweet sauces served over rice and little umbrella drinks.
The thing about meat is no matter where it comes from, unless you kill it yourself, you have no idea what it is, what's in it, or where it came from. Yumm.
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» There's too high fat content in amerikan meat
Posted by: WhatNow?
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Posted by: richardschwartz on Aug 24, 2006 9:56 AM
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Posted by: geogirl on Aug 24, 2006 10:48 AM
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I have two questions- 1) what is causing the rise of allergies? Is in environmental degradation? Is it genetic modification of soybean plants (90% of US soybean crops are genetically modified species)?
2) What is the alternative for this growing segment of our population? Vegetarianism isn't a healthy alternative for them when so many of the staples of that diet are unavailable to them (not to mention berries, milk, other legumes, grasses, and grains). Until we figure out how to deal with allergies, a vegetarian world is impossible. After all, I've never seen anyone allergic to meat in my schools.....
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» RE: Is vegetarian the answer for everyone?
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Is vegetarian the answer for everyone?
Posted by: geogirl
» Well, I guess I'll quit being vegetarian; thanks
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Well, I guess I'll quit being vegetarian; thanks
Posted by: geogirl
» we need to return to traditional diets not processed foods
Posted by: kuro_neko
» RE: traditional diets...neko. Very good post. WhuThu!?!, MORE conspiracy by big bro!!!
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: Is vegetarian the answer for everyone?
Posted by: launcher
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Posted by: Ricki on Aug 24, 2006 11:51 AM
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» RE: I don't feel threatened...
Posted by: sweetlou
» RE: I don't feel threatened...
Posted by: Ricki
» RE: Christioan 'fundies'...Ricki, What way is
Posted by: SamFox
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Posted by: quickfuse on Aug 24, 2006 12:15 PM
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Does anyone have any citations for that claim? I mean, this question has nothing to do with how big of a problem smoking is for society at large, the health of individuals that choose to partake... but, I have never actually seen any serious scientific studies or (even chemical research pointing to smoking as a cause) that have shown humans smoking anything to be a serious issue, *specifically in terms of affecting our atmosphere at ozone layer heights*.
it honestly seems quite ridiculous... im not going to argue about the effects of the various noxious and otherwise harmful chemicals released by massive-output institutions and industries causing certain layers of atmosphere to deteriorate; i have heard good arguments about many of these indivudual processes and how they affect the atmosphere from... yep, 3 college-level earth sci/meteorolgy professors (2 of which personnally argued that "global warming" is *not* a direct result of most of the processes we/the media tend to blame, but still considered it an important issue to debate). i feel that many of the biggest issues that may be causing some sort of "greenhouse effect" are ones that we should be cycling out and re-thinking for a million other reasons anyway, many of which are included in the other "causes" listed by the author... so, im all for working on safer, more effective, and more environmentally sound (from all angles), methods of altering our production, distrobution, and regulation of these industries... but, im really not commenting to argue anything like that. its just the smoking thing that irked me (and i am not a cig. smoker)
so, im just curious; does anyone else find the thought of the tobacco smokers of the world being at all to blame for ozone layer depletion and related global environmental issues, to just be, well, kind of ridiculous..?
or even better, anyone have some actual statistics or scientific evidence that show cig. smoke's effect on the atmosphere and the ozone layer?
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» RE: Specific question- [cig smoking]- forgive me if it came up in comments
Posted by: CyberBrook
» RE: Specific question- [cig smoking]- forgive me if it came up in comments
Posted by: quickfuse
» RE: Specific question-cig smoking: Hi every one. I think we should also consider
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: Specific question-cig smoking: Hi every one. I think we should also consider
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Specific question-WhuThu!?!--I guess you did not read
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: Specific question- [cig smoking]- forgive me if it came up in comments
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
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Posted by: mtngoat on Aug 24, 2006 3:01 PM
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» RE: sick of narrow-minded...
Posted by: sweetlou
» RE: sick of narrow-minded...
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: esunz on Aug 24, 2006 4:42 PM
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» RE: Fossil Fuels = Global Warming
Posted by: geogirl
» RE: Fossil Fuels = Global Warming ah, warm and friendly
Posted by: launcher
» No impoliteness?
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
Comments are closed-
Posted by: NDnative on Aug 24, 2006 4:49 PM
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Sorry I'm an angry disaffected voter hating both sellout parties!
P.S.: In North Dakota, even conservatives joined the liberals to make legal the cultivation of hemp and Governor John Hoeven signed the bill into law with strong approval. Alternet should either bring in articles supporting the need to legalize hemp or SHUT THE FUCK UP !!!
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» An important aspect of societal problems that should be addressed
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: An important aspect of societal problems; WhuThu?!?--WhatThe!?!
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: An important aspect of societal problems; WhuThu?!?--WhatThe!?!
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: This is why HEMP; NDnative--Hemp production is a great
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: This is why HEMP is the answer to ERADICATING dependence on petroleum
Posted by: aonghus36
» RE:HEMP is the answer to ERADICATING... aonghus36--Good for you!!!
Posted by: SamFox
Comments are closed-
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Aug 24, 2006 5:59 PM
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That's how a lot of this world exists - and I think it's a good sight better then sitting around eating organic bananas flown in from Ecuador, organic pineapples flown in from Hawaii, and sipping coffe and chocolate mochas from Africa or South America - all while loudly proclaiming one's moral superiority to the disgusting flesh-eaters....if you know what I mean.
Hypocrisy on the left is just as ugly as hypocrisy on the right, though the righties do tend to murder and torture more than the lefties do, Stalin and the Khmer Rouge being rather large exceptions to this.
If you want to go after a source of global warming, don't attack those who include flesh in their diet - go after the corporate agribusiness system (Cargill, ADM) who are deforesting the Amazon to clear land for growing soy crops for export to Europe and Japan (since American soy is genetically modified, the Euro-Asians don't want it, not that I blame them). Cargill's and ADM's ventures into biodiesel don't exactly fill me with joy, either. Reducing CO2 emissions is not a factor, it's all about the profit - regardless of all the greenwashing propaganda.
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» RE: Ideology vs. realistic world views
Posted by: CyberBrook
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Posted by: acidrain69 on Aug 24, 2006 8:18 PM
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Animals for slaughter mostly eat plants (grass, grains, etc). Plants convert CO2 to energy via photosynthesis. It requires vastly more plants to feed animals for slaughter than it would to feed a vegetarian world, THEREFORE, there are more plants around to feed all these animals, therefore there should be more CO2 filtering via photosynthesis. The methane is a different issue, and hopefully some of the limited bio-fuel systems around the world could be expanded to actually create energy from all that methane/waste.
But anyway, does anyone have any good links/resources for someone looking to eat less meat? I don't want to go full on vegan, but I'd like to drastically cut down on flesh eating, mainly for health reasons (I'm tired of being overweight). Please don't flame me with your politics, just give some helpful advice. I'm looking for easy recipes for people trying to put off meat.
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» RE: Doesn't make sense
Posted by: CyberBrook
» RE: Doesn't make sense
Posted by: kwest10
» RE: Doesn't make sense - Here are some good veggie recipe books:
Posted by: Ricki
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Posted by: SamFox on Aug 24, 2006 8:42 PM
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This stuff is getting so out of hand. Please people, reasearch both sides of issues before cowering in fear to big bro & it's hand wringing propaganda BS machine.
Sticks & stones...here they come!
Getting weary in the nose bleed section!
SamFox
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» RE: HORSE PUCKY!!
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: HORSE PUCKY!! WhuThe!?! I agree with much of your post. But please, know that I am not
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: HORSE PUCKY!! PS TO WhuThe!?! I agree with....
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: HORSE PUCKY!! WhuThe!?! I agree with much of your post. But please, know that I am not
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: HORSE PUCKY!! WhuThe!?! I agree with much...Wow! WhuThu!?!, you got to hear Jack? Cool...
Posted by: SamFox
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Posted by: quickfuse on Aug 25, 2006 10:04 AM
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when you read that first paragraph of the article "smoking" really stands out... its not like the author actually wrote "the manufacturing and consumption of tobacco," just "smoking."
i'd like to see a source for how the act of smoking really deteriorates that level of the atmosphere, not just a bunch of fluff that is just as vague only in more words.
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» RE: smoking: hmm
Posted by: quickfuse
» RE: smoking: hmm
Posted by: quickfuse
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Posted by: geogirl on Aug 25, 2006 11:17 AM
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8740115/page/2/
http://earthsave.org/globalwarming.htm
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Posted by: Gatsby on Aug 25, 2006 11:45 AM
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Earth's climates are dynamic and emergent. Changing weather patterns in one-latitude will affect the climate in all the other latitudes. For instance, as the earth's oceans and lakes warm, greater condensation occurs and more clouds form. This causes increased precipitation, esp. in coastal areas plus more cloud cover means greater reflectivity of incoming solar radiation.
While it is probable that human activity has slightly affected the earth's overall temperature during the past 300 years, solar radiation output, the earth's varying orbit and wobbling rotation account for ~ 99.9% of earth's climate changes. And, while 10 millennia is a relatively short period of geologic time - when compared to a single human lifetime - it seems like forever, especially in a civilized culture obsessed with controlling nature and the illusion of human "progress".
From an evolutionary perspective -- the 6th great extinction of life on earth, gatherers / hunters being forced to adopt agriculture as a survival strategy, sedentism, the rise of civilization with its pyramid of power by way of a social hierarchy, organized warfare, religions, the exponentially expanding human population, the industrial revolution, pollution, an abundant food supply, international commerce, plastics, cheap travel and the rest are ALL outcomes of global warming.
My educational / experiential background is in sustainable agriculture, holistic resource management and prairie conservation. And, I must say, it's amusing to read Alternet essays that seem to blame global warming on boneheads that drive gas-guzzling SUV's, cows farting and the eating of meat. : )
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» Nice ignorance-spreading commentary!
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Umm- who's the ignorant one?!?
Posted by: geogirl
» RE: Umm- who's the ignorant one?!?
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Umm- who's the ignorant one?!?
Posted by: geogirl
» You win!
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: You win! because I am incapable of rational thought
Posted by: geogirl
» Misplaced anger
Posted by: YogiBear
» Final Thoughts 1
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Final Thoughts 2 Continued
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Geogirl has some points
Posted by: launcher
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Posted by: ongho on Aug 25, 2006 2:33 PM
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The underlying issue is a moral one: whether we humans should have the right to kill other beings which feel pain and endure suffering, in order to satisfy human needs or desires (and as is evident from several posters above, there are many who do so for pleasure, not necessity). One poster noted the universe is a cruel place. After all, it's true that the law of big-eat-small has ruled our planet since the dawn of history. Of course, so have war, rape, robbery, and sloth been with us since the beginning. That doesn't mean we should all proceed to feel free to engage in robbery, pillage and mayhem, does it? :)
Let's not forget, either, that it wasn't the law of the jungle that has spawned social welfare programs and ethics. We humans now possess the power and the mental / spiritual ability to change our world for the better. Sadly, we seem to be bent on doing the opposite.
In short, rationalizing the eating of meat boils down to two elements: 1) ingroup denigration of a weaker "other"; and 2) power. It was not so long ago that many Americans considered blacks and native Americans to be less than human -- or even to be "property". Animals have even less power and no voice. They cannot fight back, organize protests, or plead with us. They only hope animals have is human consience, which has so far failed them.
End of story.
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» RE: ethical vegetarians
Posted by: CyberBrook
» Thank you Thank you Thank you
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Goofy vegetarians
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: JuanPeron on Aug 27, 2006 5:28 PM
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Just got back from the store with a pound of Italian salami and a 10 lb. goose I plan to cook tomorrow. Last week I had chilli made with bufallo meat from a bufallo my cousin shot on a recent buffalo hunt.
YUM YUM YUM!
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» RE: Meat isn't murder, it's delicious!
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Meat isn't murder, it's delicious!
Posted by: JuanPeron
» Uh, you're hunting
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Uh, you're hunting
Posted by: JuanPeron
» RE: Uh, you're hunting
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Uh, you're hunting
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Uh, you're hunting
Posted by: JuanPeron
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Posted by: zombi on Aug 27, 2006 8:10 PM
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» RE: let's be real about this people...
Posted by: JuanPeron
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Posted by: misterpunch on Aug 29, 2006 11:45 AM
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Converting mountain lions? The issue being discussed is the environmental impact of human consumption of meat. Its impact is argued to be widespread for the specific reason that commercial production of affordable meat, in quantities sufficient to fulfill demand in industrialized countries, requires factory farming techniques. This practice keeps an artificially high number of livestock animals alive and fails to deal adequately (that is, without poisoning groundwater etc.) with the waste they produce. One such waste product being methane, which is a "greenhouse" gas.
The morality of one animal consuming another is not at issue. It doesn't apply to the discussion. What mountain lions eat has nothing to do with industialized agriculture. Mountain lions do not factory farm. You, sir, are no mountain lion. Even if you also kill animals for food personally, automatic weapon or no, you still are not a mountain lion. Sorry.
It's also irrelevant, to everybody, what you're having for lunch today. There's not a single person reading this thread that cannot face the fact that you will have a salami sandwich. Your sandwich is not challenging to anyone, much less horrifying. I mention this in the hope that you will find a hobby or something that will provide you the satisfaction you are currently failing to find in attempting to bait environmentalists and vegetarians. Good luck.
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» clarify: in response to juanperon's hunting thread above.
Posted by: misterpunch
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Posted by: AdamG on Aug 30, 2006 9:32 AM
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» Stunning, the endless ignorance.
Posted by: Kneel
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Posted by: Jarmadi on Sep 1, 2006 11:46 AM
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OLD PEOPLE
No other creature farts as much as old people. There must be an ascending cloud of methane rizing from every nursing home in the country. This could possibly be harnessed for peaceful usage.
VEGANS
Beans are central to Vegan diet. Just reflect back to the Vegan campfire dinner in Blazing Saddles. My goodness.........the explosions sounded like Saturday night in Baghdad.
So leave the cows alone, people. Adjust your aim towards more appropriate targets...........
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Posted by: RayKeithJr on Feb 27, 2007 12:26 PM
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“in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils…commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.” 1 Timothy 4:1-5. It tells us that
"Yea, aflesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly." D&C 89:12
The article is filled with misinformation. Moderation and wisdom in all things. God bless.
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Posted by: USUK on Aug 24, 2006 12:28 AM
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Feeding all the people of the world.
Personal health and longevity.
It's better for the animals you didn't kill.
Would anyone in their right mind kill and eat mammals?
Would anyone in their right mind kill and eat babies?
USUK because your two countries are parasites.
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» RE: Killing animals, the planet and lots of people.
Posted by: marklar
» RE: Killing animals, the planet and lots of people.
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Killing animals, the planet and lots of people.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Killing animals, the planet and lots of people.
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Real costs.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Killing animals & babies-USUK, actually babies are
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: Killing animals, the planet and lots of people.
Posted by: JuanPeron
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Posted by: rsaxto on Aug 24, 2006 1:48 AM
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» RE: cold turkey
Posted by: quissy
» RE: cold turkey --- ozone hole --- sea of oil
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: cold turkey --- ozone hole --- sea of oil
Posted by: Aimee
» RE: cold turkey --- ozone hole --- sea of oil
Posted by: quissy
» RE: cold turkey --- ozone hole --- sea of oil
Posted by: symcokid
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Posted by: Molly W on Aug 24, 2006 4:17 AM
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I work with small scale farmers as manager of a farmers' market. One of our vendors has very small herds of beef and dairy cattle, as well as chickens. All their animals are pastured. They raise about everything they eat, all their protein and fat come from the farm. The animals provide fertilizer for the garden. Actually, there is less loss of life on a pastured meat farm than on a farm growing soybeans for soymilk--on a pasture, one steer (and maybe some bugs) sacrifices its life to sustain others, while in a soybean or canola field growing beans/seeds to make tofu or oil for a vegan, huge amounts of wildlife habitat are lost, not even to mention the birds, mice, voles, etc that are killed when huge tractors go through the field.
I used to be vegan because I believed misinformation like that spouted by Brook. I know now that my diet is much more sustainable and humane than when I was dependent on soy and other processed veg foods. Ethical meat eating is at the forefront of the food and agriculture revolution in America, so I was surprised to see this one-sided, biased article from Alternet. Brook's theory is about 30 years outdated.
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» RE: Misinformation...again
Posted by: Catwoman
» RE: Misinformation...again
Posted by: woogawooga
» RE: Misinformation...again
Posted by: Catwoman
» Another aspect
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Another aspect
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Misinformation...again
Posted by: woogawooga
» RE: Misinformation...again
Posted by: brad
» RE: Misinformation...again
Posted by: Molly W
» RE: Misinformation...again
Posted by: Catwoman
» RE: Misinformation...again
Posted by: festernaecus
» RE: Misinformation...again
Posted by: Catwoman
» RE: Misinformation...again
Posted by: toddaa
» Throw-away
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Misinformation...again
Posted by: aebartle
» Soybeans
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Misinformation...again
Posted by: It'sTheFood
» RE: Misinformation...again
Posted by: babs
» RE: Misinformation...again
Posted by: It'sTheFood
» Our bodies, ourselves
Posted by: YogiBear
» Answer to your questions
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» What a flawed argument
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: What a flawed argument
Posted by: festernaecus
» I respect your honesty
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: I respect your honesty
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: I respect your honesty
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Quote me "all the studies" which say vegetarianism is better for every single person
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: What a flawed argument
Posted by: aebartle
» RE: What a flawed argument
Posted by: babs
» RE: What a flawed argument
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Isnt' "eating meat ethically" kind of an oxymoron?
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Isnt' "eating meat ethically" kind of an oxymoron?
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Isnt' "eating meat ethically" kind of an oxymoron?
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» But I support your right to your faith!
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: But I support your right to your faith!
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Dick's boy
Posted by: wereallfukked
» RE: Dick's boy
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» P.S.
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Perpetual problem here...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Hemp, demand hemp
Posted by: aonghus36
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Posted by: Rbuck on Aug 24, 2006 5:57 AM
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It behoves the progressives to be more discerning and accurate at naming a problem to be fixed. There is no simple answer, there is no simple problem, but there are things we each can do to relieve the situation.
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» RE: The problem is not meat
Posted by: Catwoman
» RE: The problem is not meat
Posted by: ConnecttheDots
» RE: The problem is not meat
Posted by: Catwoman
» Perhaps it's evolutionary
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Perhaps it's evolutionary
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Perhaps it's evolutionary
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: The problem is not meat
Posted by: marklar
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Posted by: brad on Aug 24, 2006 6:13 AM
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Now conversely I am not one of those who aspires to turn a political issue, what we accept as farming, distributing and treating practices is a political issue, into a personal choice/free market issue. It is not simply about my personal choices, it is about how we as a collective society want to live. By simply advocating personal consumer choice changes one actually strengthens the argument of free market ideologues who want to leave society up to "markets". A twofold stratigie is needed, one that involves personal choices and political action.
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Posted by: Liger on Aug 24, 2006 6:58 AM
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» Yep! God wants us to kill!
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Aren't people also made out of meat?
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: Aren't people also made out of meat?
Posted by: joy7
» RE: Aren't people also made out of meat?
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: Aren't people also made out of meat?
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Aren't people also made out of meat?
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Aren't people also made out of meat?
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Animals are good... Aliens love to come to Earth to eat white people with mustard
Posted by: Aimee
» RE: Animals are good eating ... Aliens love to come to Earth to eat white people with Ale.
Posted by: symcokid
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Posted by: Aimee on Aug 24, 2006 6:59 AM
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We are killing ourselves. STOP eating meat. Cows, chickens, pigs, turkeys. DEAD MEAT is not good for humans or for our home: Earth.
Peace, and Good Luck,
Aimee
Vegetarian for over 30 years.
www.dataoptions.com
PS: for those who do not believe there is a global climate change problem - well, good luck to you. Those who do not pay attention will wonder what happened when it is too late. Actually, it is already too late. Good luck.
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» RE: Meat Is a Global Warming Issue - water is being used for meat
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: Meat Is a Global Warming Issue - water is being used for meat
Posted by: Aimee
» RE: Meat Is a Global Warming Issue - water is being used for meat
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: Meat Is a Global Warming Issue - water is being used for meat
Posted by: Aimee
» Meat Is a Global Warming Issue
Posted by: YogiBear
» We are supposedly a government by the people for the people
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: We are supposedly a government by the people for the people
Posted by: Aimee
» RE: Meat Is a Global Warming Issue - water is being used for meat
Posted by: mnlefty
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Posted by: Ricki on Aug 24, 2006 7:31 AM
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» RE: What a piece of garbage
Posted by: Catwoman
» RE: What a piece of garbage
Posted by: therabshakeh
» RE: What a piece of garbage
Posted by: Ricki
» RE: What a piece of garbage
Posted by: Ulfhethner
» RE: What a piece of garbage
Posted by: Ricki
» RE: What a piece of garbage
Posted by: Ulfhethner
» RE: What a piece of garbage
Posted by: Ricki
» RE: What a piece of garbage
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: What a piece of garbage
Posted by: Ricki
» RE: What a piece of garbage
Posted by: bodhisattva
» RE: What a piece of garbage
Posted by: Ricki
» RE: What a piece of garbage
Posted by: Jarmadi
» RE: What a piece of garbage
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» You were more polite....
Posted by: sirossisofliver
Comments are closed-
Posted by: WhuThe?!? on Aug 24, 2006 7:39 AM
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Any form of flesh, especially cow flesh, is very inefficient from an energy point of view. It takes several pounds of plant protein to produce a pound of animal protein. Therefore, the meat-based diet consumes many times the soil, water and energy resources as is necessary, all for personal pleasure, as meat is not necessary for human survival. From an environmental point of view, meat consumption is not ethical. If anything else, frequent flesh consumption is unethical. If everybody would at least quit making dead animals the base of their diet, and greatly decrease their consumption, the world would become a better place. Vegetarianism, preferably veganism (no animal products whatsoever) is the solution to many of our environmental ills, however since most meat eaters don't care enough to, or can't seem to overcome their addiction, they should at least not purchase corporately-raised meat. Our government subsidizes the monocropping of water and chemical-intensive corn of which 80% is fed to cows, and that is very wrong. In fact, in states like Kansas, Arkansas, Nebraska, Colorado and Wyoming, the water wars have already begun. If people were to quit supporting the meat industry (and therefore the monocrop-corn industry), our limited water, land and air resources upon which future generations will depend would be in much better shape. And I include air because an incredible amount of fossil fuels are consumed, which release heat-trapping carbon dioxide, in the use of tractors, the production of chemical fertilizers, and the pumping of irrigation water, all part of the production of animals for consumption. In addition, the methane produced by corporately-raised cows is extremely high because they are fed a diet to which cows did not evolve. It is not natural for cows to consume massive amounts of corn grain; they normally consume grasses. Corn produces a lot of flatulence in cows, and methane (flatulence) is, like carbon dioxide, a heat-trapping gas.
We should all be working towards vegetarian diets. Increased personal and environmental health and less cruelty towards our fellow creatures is a good thing. If people truly care about the future of this planet and its inhabitants, they should refuse to support the cruel, unhealthy, environmentally-unsound corporate meat industries by becoming vegetarians, or minimally, only consuming organic and/or range-raised meat.
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» RE: Great article!
Posted by: Aimee
» Overpopulated?
Posted by: edith
» Saddle Up!
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Do vegans have kids?
Posted by: YogiBear
» Come on! You can do better than that!
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Come on! You can do better than that!
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Overpopulated?
Posted by: ConnecttheDots
» RE: Overpopulated?
Posted by: Ulfhethner
Comments are closed-
Posted by: historystudent on Aug 24, 2006 8:00 AM
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Posted by: brad on Aug 24, 2006 8:03 AM
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As a vegetarian, vegan for about 8 years, my diet is not made up of alot of soy. I know this is what many meat eaters think, but it is just untrue. When I owned my farm, my wife and I grew about 90% of what we ate, with the remaining 10% split between other local foods and nonlocal oils and such. The same inability to look at local sustainable choices you site in this column you yourself fail to apply to vegetarians. My farm was surrounded by organic grass fed ranches and the argument that there was more biodiversity on their pastures than my fields is simply not true. The organic wheat that grew adjacent to my farm had more wildlife than any pasture, while producing about ten times the food output.
A big problem in all of these anti-veg arguments is that they base their analysis on the false notion that there is enough room for everyone to eat meat three times a day, on the fact that grass fed beef uses more land than factory farming which uses way more land than grains or veggies. It is based on the fallacy that we can all move to the country and raise our own food, or that we can convert all of our protein needs to pastured meat. It simply cannot be done, we cannot feed all of the people in the city with pastured meat, we would need to convert the whole planet to pasture. I am sorry but I do think the world needs wilderness and forests.
Now if we converted the pastures and factory farms to produce high protein grains and vegiges we would have far more farm land than we need, it would create the ability to have more local producers and could reestablish alot of wilderness and forest to combate global warming and reduce species loss.
All of this overlooks the social and political aspects of the issue and attempts to reduce it to an individual choice/market based decision. The whole debate should have been made simpler years ago by phasing out chemical and heavy fossil fuel dependent farming years ago. Instead we get market based decisions that tie our hands and limit our options.
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» Thank you.
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» To MatthewSavage
Posted by: WitchyNy
» I really enjoyed your post
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
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Posted by: enriquethepenguin on Aug 24, 2006 8:37 AM
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As such, our short lives have come at a fortunate time as we are just starting our decent. Our only recourse is to enjoy life as best we can now; quality of life is all we have left. And, for me and my family, that means enjoying a new york strip and drinking a good pinot while watching the twilight of our species' existence.
The ship is sinking. You can toil and suffer and eat your lima beans while it goes down. I choose to dig into a bacon-wrapped filet mignon and at least enjoy the ride while I can.
I may sound defeatist and cynical, but I'm not. I'm a realist. It's just that all the evidence points to defeat.
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» RE: Quality of Life is the Point
Posted by: misterpunch
» your missing the point
Posted by: starchild
» RE: Quality of Life is the Point
Posted by: sirossisofliver
» And nearly everybody is either asleep or shares your mentality,
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
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Posted by: CyberBrook on Aug 24, 2006 9:14 AM
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Also see www.eatkind.net/inconvenient.htm for another take on another inconvenient truth.
This EarthSave Report is also worthwhile:
www.earthsave.org/globalwarming.htm
(please share this info with others)
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Posted by: sirossisofliver on Aug 24, 2006 9:35 AM
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Geeez! Anyone up for a 'double-trouble' with cheese'?
Sir Ossis
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» RE: What A Load Of Crap!!!
Posted by: richardschwartz
» It's really quite simple
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
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Posted by: marklar on Aug 24, 2006 9:53 AM
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With that said, why don't we eat people yet? I admit there are issues some people would have with it but if we treated the ordeal as a great delicacy and marketed it right I think it would be a hit. There are plenty to go around and the way global warming is squeezing us together it could serve an urgent need to find a place for overpopulation. It would offer a whole new twist to eating out, or, having Mexican, or Chinese. It would satisfy the urge for Americans to dominate humanity even further, and we could probably put a huge dent in the illegal immigration issue and that would make Lou Dobbs very happy. We could even offer regional specialties like, for New England we could offer Blue Blood specials with clam chowder and a good wine and charge a hefty price per plate. Or, in Hawaii we could dine on orginal native dishes with pineapple and sweet sauces served over rice and little umbrella drinks.
The thing about meat is no matter where it comes from, unless you kill it yourself, you have no idea what it is, what's in it, or where it came from. Yumm.
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» There's too high fat content in amerikan meat
Posted by: WhatNow?
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Posted by: richardschwartz on Aug 24, 2006 9:56 AM
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Posted by: geogirl on Aug 24, 2006 10:48 AM
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I have two questions- 1) what is causing the rise of allergies? Is in environmental degradation? Is it genetic modification of soybean plants (90% of US soybean crops are genetically modified species)?
2) What is the alternative for this growing segment of our population? Vegetarianism isn't a healthy alternative for them when so many of the staples of that diet are unavailable to them (not to mention berries, milk, other legumes, grasses, and grains). Until we figure out how to deal with allergies, a vegetarian world is impossible. After all, I've never seen anyone allergic to meat in my schools.....
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» RE: Is vegetarian the answer for everyone?
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Is vegetarian the answer for everyone?
Posted by: geogirl
» Well, I guess I'll quit being vegetarian; thanks
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Well, I guess I'll quit being vegetarian; thanks
Posted by: geogirl
» we need to return to traditional diets not processed foods
Posted by: kuro_neko
» RE: traditional diets...neko. Very good post. WhuThu!?!, MORE conspiracy by big bro!!!
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: Is vegetarian the answer for everyone?
Posted by: launcher
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Posted by: Ricki on Aug 24, 2006 11:51 AM
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» RE: I don't feel threatened...
Posted by: sweetlou
» RE: I don't feel threatened...
Posted by: Ricki
» RE: Christioan 'fundies'...Ricki, What way is
Posted by: SamFox
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Posted by: quickfuse on Aug 24, 2006 12:15 PM
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Does anyone have any citations for that claim? I mean, this question has nothing to do with how big of a problem smoking is for society at large, the health of individuals that choose to partake... but, I have never actually seen any serious scientific studies or (even chemical research pointing to smoking as a cause) that have shown humans smoking anything to be a serious issue, *specifically in terms of affecting our atmosphere at ozone layer heights*.
it honestly seems quite ridiculous... im not going to argue about the effects of the various noxious and otherwise harmful chemicals released by massive-output institutions and industries causing certain layers of atmosphere to deteriorate; i have heard good arguments about many of these indivudual processes and how they affect the atmosphere from... yep, 3 college-level earth sci/meteorolgy professors (2 of which personnally argued that "global warming" is *not* a direct result of most of the processes we/the media tend to blame, but still considered it an important issue to debate). i feel that many of the biggest issues that may be causing some sort of "greenhouse effect" are ones that we should be cycling out and re-thinking for a million other reasons anyway, many of which are included in the other "causes" listed by the author... so, im all for working on safer, more effective, and more environmentally sound (from all angles), methods of altering our production, distrobution, and regulation of these industries... but, im really not commenting to argue anything like that. its just the smoking thing that irked me (and i am not a cig. smoker)
so, im just curious; does anyone else find the thought of the tobacco smokers of the world being at all to blame for ozone layer depletion and related global environmental issues, to just be, well, kind of ridiculous..?
or even better, anyone have some actual statistics or scientific evidence that show cig. smoke's effect on the atmosphere and the ozone layer?
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» RE: Specific question- [cig smoking]- forgive me if it came up in comments
Posted by: CyberBrook
» RE: Specific question- [cig smoking]- forgive me if it came up in comments
Posted by: quickfuse
» RE: Specific question-cig smoking: Hi every one. I think we should also consider
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: Specific question-cig smoking: Hi every one. I think we should also consider
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Specific question-WhuThu!?!--I guess you did not read
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: Specific question- [cig smoking]- forgive me if it came up in comments
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
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Posted by: mtngoat on Aug 24, 2006 3:01 PM
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» RE: sick of narrow-minded...
Posted by: sweetlou
» RE: sick of narrow-minded...
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: esunz on Aug 24, 2006 4:42 PM
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» RE: Fossil Fuels = Global Warming
Posted by: geogirl
» RE: Fossil Fuels = Global Warming ah, warm and friendly
Posted by: launcher
» No impoliteness?
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
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Posted by: NDnative on Aug 24, 2006 4:49 PM
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Sorry I'm an angry disaffected voter hating both sellout parties!
P.S.: In North Dakota, even conservatives joined the liberals to make legal the cultivation of hemp and Governor John Hoeven signed the bill into law with strong approval. Alternet should either bring in articles supporting the need to legalize hemp or SHUT THE FUCK UP !!!
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» An important aspect of societal problems that should be addressed
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: An important aspect of societal problems; WhuThu?!?--WhatThe!?!
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: An important aspect of societal problems; WhuThu?!?--WhatThe!?!
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: This is why HEMP; NDnative--Hemp production is a great
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: This is why HEMP is the answer to ERADICATING dependence on petroleum
Posted by: aonghus36
» RE:HEMP is the answer to ERADICATING... aonghus36--Good for you!!!
Posted by: SamFox
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Aug 24, 2006 5:59 PM
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That's how a lot of this world exists - and I think it's a good sight better then sitting around eating organic bananas flown in from Ecuador, organic pineapples flown in from Hawaii, and sipping coffe and chocolate mochas from Africa or South America - all while loudly proclaiming one's moral superiority to the disgusting flesh-eaters....if you know what I mean.
Hypocrisy on the left is just as ugly as hypocrisy on the right, though the righties do tend to murder and torture more than the lefties do, Stalin and the Khmer Rouge being rather large exceptions to this.
If you want to go after a source of global warming, don't attack those who include flesh in their diet - go after the corporate agribusiness system (Cargill, ADM) who are deforesting the Amazon to clear land for growing soy crops for export to Europe and Japan (since American soy is genetically modified, the Euro-Asians don't want it, not that I blame them). Cargill's and ADM's ventures into biodiesel don't exactly fill me with joy, either. Reducing CO2 emissions is not a factor, it's all about the profit - regardless of all the greenwashing propaganda.
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» RE: Ideology vs. realistic world views
Posted by: CyberBrook
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Posted by: acidrain69 on Aug 24, 2006 8:18 PM
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Animals for slaughter mostly eat plants (grass, grains, etc). Plants convert CO2 to energy via photosynthesis. It requires vastly more plants to feed animals for slaughter than it would to feed a vegetarian world, THEREFORE, there are more plants around to feed all these animals, therefore there should be more CO2 filtering via photosynthesis. The methane is a different issue, and hopefully some of the limited bio-fuel systems around the world could be expanded to actually create energy from all that methane/waste.
But anyway, does anyone have any good links/resources for someone looking to eat less meat? I don't want to go full on vegan, but I'd like to drastically cut down on flesh eating, mainly for health reasons (I'm tired of being overweight). Please don't flame me with your politics, just give some helpful advice. I'm looking for easy recipes for people trying to put off meat.
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» RE: Doesn't make sense
Posted by: CyberBrook
» RE: Doesn't make sense
Posted by: kwest10
» RE: Doesn't make sense - Here are some good veggie recipe books:
Posted by: Ricki
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Posted by: SamFox on Aug 24, 2006 8:42 PM
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This stuff is getting so out of hand. Please people, reasearch both sides of issues before cowering in fear to big bro & it's hand wringing propaganda BS machine.
Sticks & stones...here they come!
Getting weary in the nose bleed section!
SamFox
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» RE: HORSE PUCKY!!
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: HORSE PUCKY!! WhuThe!?! I agree with much of your post. But please, know that I am not
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: HORSE PUCKY!! PS TO WhuThe!?! I agree with....
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: HORSE PUCKY!! WhuThe!?! I agree with much of your post. But please, know that I am not
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: HORSE PUCKY!! WhuThe!?! I agree with much...Wow! WhuThu!?!, you got to hear Jack? Cool...
Posted by: SamFox
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Posted by: quickfuse on Aug 25, 2006 10:04 AM
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when you read that first paragraph of the article "smoking" really stands out... its not like the author actually wrote "the manufacturing and consumption of tobacco," just "smoking."
i'd like to see a source for how the act of smoking really deteriorates that level of the atmosphere, not just a bunch of fluff that is just as vague only in more words.
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» RE: smoking: hmm
Posted by: quickfuse
» RE: smoking: hmm
Posted by: quickfuse
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Posted by: geogirl on Aug 25, 2006 11:17 AM
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8740115/page/2/
http://earthsave.org/globalwarming.htm
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Posted by: Gatsby on Aug 25, 2006 11:45 AM
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Earth's climates are dynamic and emergent. Changing weather patterns in one-latitude will affect the climate in all the other latitudes. For instance, as the earth's oceans and lakes warm, greater condensation occurs and more clouds form. This causes increased precipitation, esp. in coastal areas plus more cloud cover means greater reflectivity of incoming solar radiation.
While it is probable that human activity has slightly affected the earth's overall temperature during the past 300 years, solar radiation output, the earth's varying orbit and wobbling rotation account for ~ 99.9% of earth's climate changes. And, while 10 millennia is a relatively short period of geologic time - when compared to a single human lifetime - it seems like forever, especially in a civilized culture obsessed with controlling nature and the illusion of human "progress".
From an evolutionary perspective -- the 6th great extinction of life on earth, gatherers / hunters being forced to adopt agriculture as a survival strategy, sedentism, the rise of civilization with its pyramid of power by way of a social hierarchy, organized warfare, religions, the exponentially expanding human population, the industrial revolution, pollution, an abundant food supply, international commerce, plastics, cheap travel and the rest are ALL outcomes of global warming.
My educational / experiential background is in sustainable agriculture, holistic resource management and prairie conservation. And, I must say, it's amusing to read Alternet essays that seem to blame global warming on boneheads that drive gas-guzzling SUV's, cows farting and the eating of meat. : )
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» Nice ignorance-spreading commentary!
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Umm- who's the ignorant one?!?
Posted by: geogirl
» RE: Umm- who's the ignorant one?!?
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Umm- who's the ignorant one?!?
Posted by: geogirl
» You win!
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: You win! because I am incapable of rational thought
Posted by: geogirl
» Misplaced anger
Posted by: YogiBear
» Final Thoughts 1
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Final Thoughts 2 Continued
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Geogirl has some points
Posted by: launcher
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Posted by: ongho on Aug 25, 2006 2:33 PM
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The underlying issue is a moral one: whether we humans should have the right to kill other beings which feel pain and endure suffering, in order to satisfy human needs or desires (and as is evident from several posters above, there are many who do so for pleasure, not necessity). One poster noted the universe is a cruel place. After all, it's true that the law of big-eat-small has ruled our planet since the dawn of history. Of course, so have war, rape, robbery, and sloth been with us since the beginning. That doesn't mean we should all proceed to feel free to engage in robbery, pillage and mayhem, does it? :)
Let's not forget, either, that it wasn't the law of the jungle that has spawned social welfare programs and ethics. We humans now possess the power and the mental / spiritual ability to change our world for the better. Sadly, we seem to be bent on doing the opposite.
In short, rationalizing the eating of meat boils down to two elements: 1) ingroup denigration of a weaker "other"; and 2) power. It was not so long ago that many Americans considered blacks and native Americans to be less than human -- or even to be "property". Animals have even less power and no voice. They cannot fight back, organize protests, or plead with us. They only hope animals have is human consience, which has so far failed them.
End of story.
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» RE: ethical vegetarians
Posted by: CyberBrook
» Thank you Thank you Thank you
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Goofy vegetarians
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: JuanPeron on Aug 27, 2006 5:28 PM
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Just got back from the store with a pound of Italian salami and a 10 lb. goose I plan to cook tomorrow. Last week I had chilli made with bufallo meat from a bufallo my cousin shot on a recent buffalo hunt.
YUM YUM YUM!
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» RE: Meat isn't murder, it's delicious!
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Meat isn't murder, it's delicious!
Posted by: JuanPeron
» Uh, you're hunting
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Uh, you're hunting
Posted by: JuanPeron
» RE: Uh, you're hunting
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Uh, you're hunting
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Uh, you're hunting
Posted by: JuanPeron
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Posted by: zombi on Aug 27, 2006 8:10 PM
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» RE: let's be real about this people...
Posted by: JuanPeron
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Posted by: misterpunch on Aug 29, 2006 11:45 AM
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Converting mountain lions? The issue being discussed is the environmental impact of human consumption of meat. Its impact is argued to be widespread for the specific reason that commercial production of affordable meat, in quantities sufficient to fulfill demand in industrialized countries, requires factory farming techniques. This practice keeps an artificially high number of livestock animals alive and fails to deal adequately (that is, without poisoning groundwater etc.) with the waste they produce. One such waste product being methane, which is a "greenhouse" gas.
The morality of one animal consuming another is not at issue. It doesn't apply to the discussion. What mountain lions eat has nothing to do with industialized agriculture. Mountain lions do not factory farm. You, sir, are no mountain lion. Even if you also kill animals for food personally, automatic weapon or no, you still are not a mountain lion. Sorry.
It's also irrelevant, to everybody, what you're having for lunch today. There's not a single person reading this thread that cannot face the fact that you will have a salami sandwich. Your sandwich is not challenging to anyone, much less horrifying. I mention this in the hope that you will find a hobby or something that will provide you the satisfaction you are currently failing to find in attempting to bait environmentalists and vegetarians. Good luck.
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» clarify: in response to juanperon's hunting thread above.
Posted by: misterpunch
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Posted by: AdamG on Aug 30, 2006 9:32 AM
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» Stunning, the endless ignorance.
Posted by: Kneel
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Posted by: Jarmadi on Sep 1, 2006 11:46 AM
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OLD PEOPLE
No other creature farts as much as old people. There must be an ascending cloud of methane rizing from every nursing home in the country. This could possibly be harnessed for peaceful usage.
VEGANS
Beans are central to Vegan diet. Just reflect back to the Vegan campfire dinner in Blazing Saddles. My goodness.........the explosions sounded like Saturday night in Baghdad.
So leave the cows alone, people. Adjust your aim towards more appropriate targets...........
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Posted by: RayKeithJr on Feb 27, 2007 12:26 PM
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“in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils…commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.” 1 Timothy 4:1-5. It tells us that
"Yea, aflesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly." D&C 89:12
The article is filled with misinformation. Moderation and wisdom in all things. God bless.
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