COMMENTS: 205
Would You Eat Lab-Grown Meat?
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"Cultured meat," it's called, and it is supposed to save us from the execrable pollution and guilt of factory farms while still allowing all 6.5 billion of us to stuff our gullets with ham sandwiches whenever we want to. It already exists in ground or chipped form. What Dutch scientists are working on now is a product that costs a few dollars per pound instead of a few thousand. It could be as little as five years away.
The concept is as simple as it is horrifying. Take some stem cells, or myoblasts, which are the precursors to muscle cells. Set them on "scaffolding" that they can attach to, like a flat sheet of plastic that the cells can later be slid off of. Put them in a "growth medium" -- some kind of fluid supplying the nutrients that blood would ordinarily provide. "Exercise" them regularly by administering electric currents or stretching the sheets of cells mechanically. Wait. Harvest. Eat.
It seems like something out of a chilling sci-fi future, the very epitome of bloodless Matrix-style barbarism. But growing flesh in a petri dish is an old idea from the early 20th century that received a fresh infusion of, how you say, growth medium in 2002. As part of a NASA-funded experiment to find a portable source of animal protein for astronauts, Touro College biology professors Morris Benjaminson and James Gilchriest sliced a bit of muscle from the abdomen of a goldfish and set it in a saline solution enriched with fetal calf serum. Over several weeks the muscle grew about 15 percent. Another muscle growing in a maitake mushroom solution did almost as well.
To determine whether the product was remotely appetizing or would be too repulsive even for space station humanoids to eat, Benjaminson and Gilchriest convened a panel of female employees, chosen for their gender's presumed pickiness and demonstrably superior sense of smell. Gilchriest, who used to be a professional chef ("He makes great calamari," says Benjaminson), breaded the tiny filet and sauteed it in extra virgin olive oil. He finished with a squeeze of lemon and a dash of pecorino cheese.
"And it smelled good to them," Benjaminson says. Understandably, the ladies were not asked to eat the "fish."
Whatever one's response to the idea of meat grown in a petri dish --revulsion seems to be a common one -- there are also some compelling reasons in favor of it.
"It's cleaner, healthier, less polluting and more humane," says Jason Matheny, a doctoral student in agricultural policy at the University of Maryland who sits on the board of New Harvest, a research organization for in vitro meat.
Meat grown in the sterile environment of a laboratory wouldn't harbor zoonotic diseases like avian flu or contribute to antibiotic resistance, Matheny says. As for human health, artery-clogging beef fat could be swapped out in vitro for salmon fat, for example, with its salubrious omega-3 fatty acids. And the squalid misery of factory farms could be bypassed altogether. No river would be fouled with manure and no chicken's beak would be clipped in the making of dinner.
These are important considerations. All the problems associated with modern meat production -- like the 64 million tons of manure excreted each year by factory farmed animals in the United States alone -- are poised to worsen as the earth's population heads toward 9 billion people by 2050. As up-and-coming nations like China and India develop large middle classes that adopt Western habits of consumption, that translates to an exponential rise in meat eaters and factory farms over the next 45 years.
Add it all up, and some people find cultured meat a splendid idea.
Bruce Friedrich, vice president of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, calls it "the best thing since sliced bread." Friedrich, who energetically denounces the eating of "animal corpses" every chance he gets, says that "anything that takes the cruelty out of meat-eating is good."
There are a couple of serious problems with cultured meat, though, starting with the fact that people seem to find the idea repellent.
"Yeah," Matheny admits. "There's a 'yuck' factor involved with producing any novel food."
Presented with the argument that cultured meat just ain't natural, Matheny gamely counters that wine and cheese are engineered products, too.
"And I would say cultured meat is not inherently more unnatural than producing chicken meat from tens of thousands of animals raised intensively in their own feces and fed antibiotics," he says.
That is a very good point. But then Matheny, who is vegetarian, probably won't be eating much cultured meat, either. Nor will Friedrich, who says he's done just fine without eating animal flesh for 18 years and plans to stick with his program.
As for Benjaminson, when asked if he finds the idea of cultured meat appealing, he answers, "From an esthetic standpoint? No. It would have to taste palatable, and that would require a lot of tissue engineering."
What a lot of trouble to go to for a solution that is frankly nightmarish (especially the "exercising" of the disembodied muscle by means of electrical shocks). All cultivation is a form of enslavement, however benevolent or necessary, but harnessing the manic energy of stem cells takes that dynamic into a realm where the side effects -- the "equal and opposite reaction" promised by Newton -- play out perilously close to the life process itself. If synthetic fertilizer, which seemed like such a great way to boost plant fertility, can create a dead zone the size of Maryland at the Mississippi Delta, wiping out a totally different link in the food chain, who's to say what would come of overexploited RNA or mitochondria?
Fred Kirschenmann of Iowa State University's Leopold Center for Sustainable Agriculture just hopes there will be plenty of testing. "I'm not saying some of these new ideas can't be done and they won't work at some level, but every time we mess around with our ecological heritage there are always unintended side effects that come from it," he says. "We have a long history of unintended consequences.
"We've got all these animals out there right now," he adds, "and if we suddenly decide we don't want to raise them, what does that do to the larger ecology?"
Here's an idea: Instead of safeguarding our appetites and engineering our meat, let's safeguard our meat and engineer our appetites. What if real animals were raised humanely and in sustainable numbers, so that their meat cost more -- maybe even a lot more? What if people only ate it on special occasions? What if, instead of deciding that the most important thing was to be able to satisfy every idle hankering for a cheeseburger, humanity assessed the resources and made a rational decision about protein acquisition that did not involve divorcing its food source from the life cycle? What if we took the invisible hand of the market, which has all the self-discipline and foresight of a 14-year-old boy, off the job and put a grown-up in charge?
One of the many people who has already thought of this is Robert Lawrence, director of the Center for a Livable Future at Johns Hopkins University's Bloomberg School of Public Health. Although Lawrence sits on New Harvest's board, he's skeptical about the possibilities for cultured meat.
"I think it's an interesting idea," he says . "I think in some situations it might have real value as an important bioavailable form of quality protein. But there are other more straightforward and readily available solutions."
The most obvious one is moderating intake, both frequency and portion size. The Center for a Livable Future sponsors a Meatless Mondays campaign that has attracted interest from public school systems in New York and Maryland. But as mild a suggestion as Meatless Monday is (Meatless Monday Through Thursday would be a lot closer to the mark) it has provoked what Lawrence calls a "backlash" by the meat industry.
"They called me an environmental extremist," he says with a laugh.
That bit of hysteria reveals volumes. It could be a long time before people smell the legume blossoms and start eating lower on the food chain. Matheny thinks cultured meat can be "a stopgap measure" aiding that process, methadone for meat eaters to ease the transition out of the era of 72-ounce steaks and into the days of dollops of hummus.
Maybe he's right. Maybe in vitro meat can serve that purpose. Or maybe it will work in a different way -- by so thoroughly grossing people out that they'll gladly reduce their meat consumption just so they lessen the risk of accidentally eating a meatri burger. That's how it's working on me.
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Posted by: nbrown on Jul 12, 2006 12:26 AM
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This comes with less baggage than the existing system. If you don't believe me, go work in a slaughterhouse for a minute.
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» RE: Good idea
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Good idea
Posted by: Swatopluk
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Posted by: prod on Jul 12, 2006 1:25 AM
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Why not meat?
I bet it will never be as good as the veal my girlfriend makes though. It is the best!
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» Karma
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Karma
Posted by: zombi
» That is about as big a misunderstanding of the concept as possible.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: We already have lab grown kids. Why not?
Posted by: rollo
» RE: We already have lab grown kids. Why not?
Posted by: morticia
» RE: We already have lab grown kids. Why not?
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: We already have lab grown kids. Why not?
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» The question is, would you eat lab-grown kids?
Posted by: four_legs_good_two_legs_bad
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Posted by: JamesRollins on Jul 12, 2006 1:39 AM
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As I grew up, I became a struggling vegetarian, mainly out of moral issues, and I used to think back to this book and truly wish that it was a reality. How I could truely enjoy a guilt free hamburger, only if an animal didn't die to make such a burger. I say amen! Finally, and when it becomes less costly, my family and I will fully enjoy lab-grown meat.
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» Eat beef. It is best for the cows.
Posted by: prod
» RE: you are living in fantasy land.
Posted by: lordzombie
» RE: you are living in fantasy land.
Posted by: prod
» RE: at beef. It is best for the cows.
Posted by: Peggy
» RE: at beef. It is best for the cows.
Posted by: Fishbone Soldier
» RE: at beef. It is best for the cows.
Posted by: truly scrumptious
» RE: at beef. It is best for the cows.
Posted by: prod
» RE: at beef. It is best for the cows.
Posted by: Jarmadi
» RE: at beef. It is best for the cows.
Posted by: heatherj
» Better Protein
Posted by: ChristopherLL
» RE: Better Protein
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Better Protein
Posted by: ChristopherLL
» RE: Better Protein
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Better Protein
Posted by: nickptar
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Posted by: BlueStateBitch on Jul 12, 2006 3:17 AM
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» RE: farmers
Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: farmers
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» RE: farmers
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» Life is pain...
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Life is pain...
Posted by: nickptar
» RE: Life is pain...
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» RE: Life is pain...
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Life is pain...
Posted by: nickptar
» RE: Life is pain...
Posted by: Graeme
» RE: Life is pain...
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: No kill; therefore no "yuck"
Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: No kill; therefore no "yuck"
Posted by: nickptar
» RE: No kill; therefore no "yuck"
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: No kill; therefore no "yuck"
Posted by: nickptar
» Whose logic?
Posted by: BlueTigress
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Posted by: davidhobby on Jul 12, 2006 3:58 AM
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To me, meat is meat. But then I've been a vegetarian for many years. Since I do it partially for ethical reasons, I guess that I'd eat cultured meat. It seems every culture gladly eats the "familiar" meats, which may be bugs, blood or whatever, but that unfamiliar meats are considered gross. It's interesting that people don't have a big problem with unfamiliar vegetables.
My one worry is the same as that of the "breaded cow" post, above. Cultured meat could be a step toward a world with a huge number of humans and no other animals. Now THAT would be revolting!
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» RE: Biased article? - looks like it to me!
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» RE: Biased article? - looks like it to me!
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» RE: Biased article? - looks like it to me!
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Posted by: Lizmv on Jul 12, 2006 4:08 AM
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OK, I was reading Wendell Berry last night, "An Essay Against Modern Superstition". No, I don't want everyone to go back to living in caves and become hunters/gatherers. I want sustainable living to become the cultural norm. Local control of the food supply. Empowerment and localized control of economics, not control by the upper class.
Interesting that this morning, Alternet is running a little story about Sir Keith Joseph, the father of 'Thatcherism' having been afflicted by Asperger's syndrome.
"In the mid-1970s, Joseph set up the Centre for Policy Studies which developed the free market ideas of the US economist Milton Friedman and impressed them on Mrs Thatcher.
"His ideas have influenced politics for 20 years. Monetarism has some of the characteristics of Asperger's in its insensitivity and its harshness - that is my point, the man and what he does in life are one. It is important to know this because these people control the destiny of the nation," Professor Fitzgerald said."
So today's global economic situation was heavily influenced by a man who lacked the ability to interpret social situations or to empathise with other people. No wonder we are in such a mess and that fake meat would been seen as a solution.
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» clean room
Posted by: Allison
» RE: clean room
Posted by: Lizmv
» RE: clean room
Posted by: lordzombie
» RE: clean room
Posted by: Lizmv
» RE: clean room
Posted by: divadiva
» RE: clean room
Posted by: Peggy
» RE: clean room
Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: Maybe it's just me
Posted by: nickptar
» RE: Maybe it's just me
Posted by: nickptar
» RE: Maybe it's just me
Posted by: activevoice
» Link: Sir Keith Joseph
Posted by: Lizmv
» RE: Link: Sir Keith Joseph
Posted by: nickptar
» RE: Maybe it's just me
Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: Maybe it's just me
Posted by: zombi
» We can learn from such cultures...
Posted by: nickptar
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Posted by: gilliani on Jul 12, 2006 4:09 AM
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I am a vegetarian, but I also worry about the fate of all the animals we have now on farms if everyone gave up meat. We (the big we, that is) have created this method of raising animals. Those animals have lots of babies, and they're good at it. If everyone stopped eating meat, what would happen to all those animals? Will the farmers continue to feed and care for them until they die natural, peaceful deaths of old age? Maybe, but I doubt it.
My point is that it would take a huge cultural shift on many levels to get the carnivorous guts of North Americans off meat, and I'd rather see us make that cultural shift gradually while considering the condition of existing livestock.
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» RE: currently
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» RE: currently
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» RE: currently
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» RE: currently
Posted by: disgustedandamused
» I think......
Posted by: morticia
» RE: currently
Posted by: nickptar
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Posted by: rsaxto on Jul 12, 2006 4:18 AM
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» RE: end up
Posted by: mysticalrae
» Soylent Green
Posted by: sirossisofliver
» RE: end up
Posted by: willymack
» Mad cow/human
Posted by: BlueTigress
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Posted by: Samantha Vimes on Jul 12, 2006 4:22 AM
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I'd eat it. I don't even understand the ick factor. Laboratory meat doesn't have feces ground up in it, and never got a parasite infection. It seems far less icky than carcasses.
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» RE: I would love it.
Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: I would love it.
Posted by: nickptar
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Posted by: deo508 on Jul 12, 2006 4:37 AM
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What hell, WalMart sells baby oil made from virgin (first press) Chinese babies why not eat labratory meat?
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» RE: When will we get our gren crackers?
Posted by: pcushniesr
» RE: u can't be serious
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Posted by: sausage on Jul 12, 2006 5:33 AM
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» RE: mmmmmmmm...Mystery meat.....
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Posted by: terryton on Jul 12, 2006 5:54 AM
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» Get your SciFi right
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Jul 12, 2006 6:00 AM
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I really don't think it can be done, because in order to grow optimally, a muscle needs blood and (relatively) high temperature, which is inviting for parasites. Without the body's complex immune system who knows what could happen.
And the sheer amount of energy required to grow meat would only underscore how expensive this stuff is. Animals, on a massive scale, consume mindnumbingly staggering amounts of resources. The middle class is rapidly approaching a point where they will not be able to afford to eat any kind of meat regularly.
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» RE: meat
Posted by: specialcowboy
» RE: meat
Posted by: nickptar
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Posted by: KeepsonTickn on Jul 12, 2006 6:03 AM
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I would eat it. It is certainly better than any genetically modified food, and should taste almost exactly like meat that is butchered from the animal, without the (revolting?) veins, gristle and bone chips.
The bigger problem is the 9 billion people in a world that can only sustain 1 billion. Let's try to find a humane solution to that one.
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» Better than GM food?
Posted by: antiapathy
» RE: Better than GM food?
Posted by: nickptar
» RE: Better than GM food?
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: Pick a Real Problem.
Posted by: divadiva
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Posted by: nim1 on Jul 12, 2006 6:06 AM
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Posted by: douglashoyt on Jul 12, 2006 6:15 AM
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We don't need technologies which make our lives only sustainable; we need technologies that help us be happy. I would not be happy eating in vito meat.
I want to enjoy my life. Happiness depends upon feeding my instinctive needs as well as my mental needs.
This idea is a waste of resourses. Put these science onto the problem of population reduction.
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» RE: Kuru
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Posted by: lordzombie on Jul 12, 2006 6:16 AM
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Posted by: drsbanerji on Jul 12, 2006 6:28 AM
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» RE: Cultured Meat
Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: Cultured Meat
Posted by: nickptar
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Posted by: goldgrif on Jul 12, 2006 6:36 AM
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Let us see,nuclear power good, oh, except the horrible spent fuel rods and and issue with human error. Factories to increase income, oh excpet for pollution, wage cuts, etc
We can look at both sides and say GREAT.
But the truth is we really dont know what this is, nor what can possibly become, look at biotech now, GM crops are not working very well. Insects have adapted to genetically enhanced crops so more pesticides need to be dumped on them.
What about a form of bioterroism in the meat itself.
As for clean rooms, after time, people get lazy, forget this or that. Heck men walk into vats of nitrogen, freely.
Yes, This would be a great idea, but like all biotech, needs to be fully explored and not thrown into the public market, till we know the effects.
And not that we can grow the food, what about the animals, we won't "need" anymore, should we get rid of them? Use all that wasted space on human habitat?
WE are loosing all forms of old farm animals for convience, and heirloom breeds may be important for various genetic material.
Man is a good manipulator, but his actions often go farther than his sight of the future.
Until I see that this is really a "good" thing,
I will go to that FAMILY farm and get my eggs, and meat. Or if I choose to be a meat eater, I will offer thanks to that animal that feeds me, and treat it as what it isi nstead of a part of life that man wants to play with, but doesn't seem to really care about.
Rant follows, be aware!!!
For all you meat eaters, have you been to a slaughter?
It is never pretty, but all meat eaters should, to understand really what it is, to take a life to live.
I am a meat eater, not much, I go to farm, help with the slaughter, and say thanks. I help feed the animals. Etc
This tech shows a disregard to a basic premise of returns for life, and like the plastic wrapped food, false colored food in a supermarket, keeps life as far away from you as possible.
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Posted by: antiapathy on Jul 12, 2006 6:40 AM
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Here's an idea: Instead of safeguarding our appetites and engineering our meat, let's safeguard our meat and engineer our appetites.
that's just crazy talk! why would we want a sustainable food chain? people have an unalienable right to a ham sandwich whenever they feel like it. I'm pretty sure it's in the Constitution.
Seriously though, our appetites have been engineered. And now we're addicted to big macs and coke and babyback ribs (barbeque sauce!). The big ag corpos want us to eat hormone-treated, anti-bioticized, beak-removed and manure spewing products. and they don't care how many people die of mad-cow or bird-flu. Just as long as we keep eating what they're selling.
So in short, your brilliant idea of eating less meat and more sustainably is not likely to take root in our current culture of consumption. But I'm on board, if that helps. Pass the veggie nuggets!
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» RE: Soylent Green is made of PEOPLE!!!
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Posted by: Serafim Tkachuk on Jul 12, 2006 6:46 AM
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Will it be every bit as delicious as naturally raised? Will the texture be equivalent? Will cooking techniques have to be altered? Will the process and production of the growth medium ultimately use fewer resources than naturally raised meat? Does the process use less energy? Are there evironmentally problematic by-products? Will meat cultures be safe from biological attack and contamination? How will the health of the culture be maintained? Will production be possible only in a centralized, massive factory or will local production be feasible? What about home production units? If it's less delicious than naturally raised, will the poor be relegated to eating it while the rich eat tasty -- and expensive -- naturally raised meats?
And, last but not least, if we can grow a perfectly delicious filet mignon that's healthier in every way and truly less burdensome on the planet's resources than naturally raised, will we be able to grow "long pig" and popularize a long maligned culinary tradition?
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» RE: But can it be delicious?
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: zinnia on Jul 12, 2006 7:09 AM
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For those of you thinking that cultured meat does not involve animals, read the above paragraph again. A lot of research-scale cell culture involves animal sera (a purified product from the blood of various animals), because there are a lot of growth factors and such in sera that are essential to culturing some types of cells. Fetal calf serum (a byproduct of the beef industry) is probably the most commonly used one. Of course, I expect that if in vitro production of meat went large-scale, they would use one of the serum-free media that have been developed (it would be cheaper, and more "defined" in content for QC purposes). However, a lot of the chemicals and growth factors used in tissue culture are ultimately animal-derived (for example, the gelatin used to coat dishes to allow the cells to stick to them comes from animals, pigs usually). Also, consider where the cells have to come from in the first place - unless these folks have come up with an "immortal" cell line that divides indefinitely without changing its characteristics, they would occasionally have to get cells from an animal. So, I wouldn't be certain that cultured meat would be what you consider "cruelty-free."
Personally, I will stick to eating in vivo meat. I am fortunate to have a store nearby that sells great locally-raised, hormone-free meat, and we limit our meat consumption. It seems to me that cultured meat is a waste of effort that could be devoted to, for example, organ culture for people who need replacement organs (there was a great NYT article about this yesterday).
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» RE: Cell culture isn't free of animal products, you know...
Posted by: Lizmv
» RE: Cell culture isn't free of animal products, you know...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» To all who oppose "frankenfood" or anything artificial:
Posted by: nickptar
» This is simply not GMO.
Posted by: truly scrumptious
» RE: This is simply not GMO.
Posted by: nickptar
» RE: This is simply not GMO.
Posted by: nickptar
» This is simply not GMO.
Posted by: truly scrumptious
» Sorry for the double post (NT), see other response as New Post.
Posted by: truly scrumptious
» Think you missed nitpickars :-) point.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Cell culture --> insulin
Posted by: zinnia
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Posted by: cyberfactotum on Jul 12, 2006 7:41 AM
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Posted by: jpinder on Jul 12, 2006 7:58 AM
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» RE: Get rid of the animals, what!!!
Posted by: truly scrumptious
» Guess what: feral animals are a problem
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Posted by: tanstaafl28 on Jul 12, 2006 8:01 AM
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Posted by: Ghoulman on Jul 12, 2006 8:14 AM
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The farmer is cut out entirely. Insidious.
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» RE: so let me get this straight...
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» RE: so let me get this straight...
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» RE: so let me get this straight...
Posted by: truly scrumptious
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Jul 12, 2006 8:33 AM
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Meh. Any idea how hard it is to keep cells alive in the lab, minus an immune system? You have to (expensively) supplement the (expensive) growth medium with multiple (expensive) antibiotics, and also supplement with (expensive) fetal bovine serum, or some of the new (expensive) plant-based substitutes.
You have to work with such cells in a sterile (expensive) hood, using glassware that someone on payroll has (expensively) sterilized or using (expensive) 1-use plastic ware.
And you still have to throw out your cultures once in a while because they get contaminated with myco or with mold/fungi.
And these cell cultures are exactly 1-layer thick, in spite of the (quite creative) syringe being introduced into the chicken leg beside the by-line.
Put yer' shirts back on, eco-evangelists. We're no where near growing meat for commerical consumption. Hopefully, we're a little closer to growing "meat" to replace human tissues...but that's a different "crusade" for the uber-greenies/human population restrictionists to oppose.
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Posted by: hartsmart on Jul 12, 2006 8:56 AM
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Want more?---for Sale: The enlightening article--
REd MEAT PREVENTS OBESITY AND DIABETES!
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Posted by: WhuThe?!? on Jul 12, 2006 9:01 AM
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Posted by: xbj on Jul 12, 2006 9:13 AM
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Imagine a world where there would be no hunger anywhere, because of readily available tasty protein.
As far as the yuck factor, as time goes on the technology will reach a point where no one will be able to tell the difference between real prime rib and the laboratory "replicator" kind. It might take 20-30 years, but it will come.
Of course the elite will still have their secret ranches, and their butchers, and their illegal herds, but that will be only because of their endless thirst for blood, real blood. But that cannot be changed.
But for the rest of humanity, about the only drawback anyone can forsee would be a drastic reduction in the population of chickens, pigs, and cattle. But the ones that did live would be living lives of luxury incomparable with today's feed animals, as beloved pets and in zoos.
There is almost nothing at all bad you can say about this tremendous development and definitely a step up on the human evolution scale.
Those stone age naysayers can squawk all they want; this IS the future, and for once, it's something good for ALL who live on this planet.
Which is indeed something unique and very blessed in these horrific times, and deserves celebration.
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» RE: FANTASTIC IDEA... and the future, "yuck: factor or not
Posted by: tdicks
» RE: FANTASTIC IDEA... and the future, "yuck: factor or not
Posted by: xbj
» RE: FANTASTIC IDEA... and the future, "yuck: factor or not
Posted by: bluebonics
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Posted by: Happy on Jul 12, 2006 9:21 AM
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Thanks for the thought provoking and inspiring article.
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Posted by: sirossisofliver on Jul 12, 2006 9:30 AM
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Posted by: YogiBear on Jul 12, 2006 9:31 AM
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You realize that by making this statement, McDonalds is going to set its goons on you. Or maybe set into action an hit to quash your ideas before they get traction.
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Posted by: YogiBear on Jul 12, 2006 9:47 AM
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Posted by: deo508 on Jul 12, 2006 9:52 AM
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Posted by: aaronfetty on Jul 12, 2006 9:58 AM
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Posted by: WitchyNy on Jul 12, 2006 10:09 AM
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I mean-is meat really that important to you all? What kind of a world are we creating here?
And this is supposed to be a progressive site?
I understand that in desperate times...you do what you have to survive. This is not the problem for (most) of America today.
Grow up! Eat a bowl of oatmeal for dinner and send the extra money you save to an Indian Reservation or Ghetto.
Not to mention the fact it would be a much healther dinner for you.
GOOD GRIEF!!!
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» RE: I can not believe this
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: I can not believe this
Posted by: Lefty Fukwitz
» RE: I can not believe this
Posted by: nickptar
» RE: I can not believe this
Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: I can not believe this
Posted by: bluebonics
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Posted by: WhuThe?!? on Jul 12, 2006 10:11 AM
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Posted by: sandy21 on Jul 12, 2006 10:27 AM
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» RE: Let go even further
Posted by: solrev
» RE: Let go even further
Posted by: zombi
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Posted by: jwg on Jul 12, 2006 10:40 AM
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Posted by: disgustedandamused on Jul 12, 2006 10:48 AM
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Or maybe we can cut to the chase, and simply figure out what combination of veg and fungal protein sources can do the job, taste good, and give us that "umami" feeling without either expensive plant & equipment, nor climbing up the trophic ladder.
As far as making non-meat taste like meat, maybe this is the wrong question. Maybe we should find the best way to make protein taste good, period. I'll bet if we look for dishes or cuisines that make protein combinations taste good irregardless of their lack of meat, we'll be on the right track.
The Wright brothers figured out how to make people fly like birds once they stopped trying to actually "fly like birds." Go for the fundamental principles underneath, not the surface appearance. Lab-meat is just another ornithopter, like those fake vegetarian meats that just remind me how I'm NOT eating the real thing. Just look for protein forms that already taste good in their own right, and re-design your cuisine around them.
And as for the high tech side of clean rooms, the centralized production... this doesn't sound like it would ever pass "the Amish Test" for decentralized, community empowering production. That may be the real point here: how many of these Futurama products look like they're headed in the right direction but are simply a more efficient way to keep markets tied to a product that still demands high-tech, centralized production, and corporate involvement?
A good veggie pizza doesn't waste time trying to convince you it's "just like a meat pizza" -- it's a good pizza, period. Any re-invention of the hamburger, hot dog, or Thanksgiving entree should take their cue from that.
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» RE: How does this compare with mushrooms?
Posted by: ethanay
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Posted by: Astra on Jul 12, 2006 10:52 AM
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What a fantastic idea for low-income families.
Not really the best solution for anyone besides those of us who actually have the luxury of enough free time and money to sit around on some weblog debating it.
What about approaching this problem from another angle - and saying, why don't we take steps to reduce the price and accessibility of organic, healthy, vegetarian food so that it becomes a competitive option for low-income (and low free time) families?
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» RE: oh that's a great solution.
Posted by: truly scrumptious
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Posted by: ethanay on Jul 12, 2006 11:04 AM
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I'm opposed to it if it's marketed as a complete replacement for all other sources of animal protein...one step closer to sticking humans directly into the growth medium itself. I think the author hit the nail on the head with "protect our food and engineer our appetites." Our entire country, people poor and rich, have the meat eating habits of an 18th century aristocracy.
Some things I worry about:
1) Will it amount to another attempt to hide our dependency on nature's bounty, and the repercussions of overstretching that dependency? It seems more like trying to create a reductionist world to fit our reductionist worldview, rather than finally facing up to the inevitable complexities (i.e., the claim that there will be no by-products...yeah, right...)
2) Is it really more energetically efficient? Less pollutign? Or is that stuff hidden from us? It seems like a pretty labor intensive process, inside a high-tech facility that draws a lot of (fossil fuel?) energy? At best, I see it shifting the type of pollution we create during meat production, rather than eliminating it...which woudln't necessarily be a bad thing (diversifying), as long as we were aware of it.
3) Is the engineered "chicken" meat as nutritious as, say, range-fed chicken, or does it suffer from the inevitable nutrient imbalances of other forms of industrial agriculture?
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» RE: "meatri burger"=priceless
Posted by: bluebonics
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Posted by: disgustedandamused on Jul 12, 2006 11:15 AM
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Hello? There's something wrong with this picture. NASA's real project, & what the International Space Station should really be doing, is figuring out a method of food production that is low-labor, simple to maintain, hard to screw up, & capable of providing a full diet on a sustainable basis in space. This means either in an orbit, an interplanetary course, or on Luna or any other rock. It should be capable of 100 percent recycling of the station's waste products, involve a minimum of necessary inputs from nearby sources, and ZERO resources from Home Base on Earth.
I've suggested elsewhere that space colonizers and permaculture pioneers really have the same goal: how to live sustainably for the duration from an absolute minimum footprint, frugally but well. Whoever invents the toolkit of technologies that allow astronauts to live indefinitely off-Earth will have also invented (probably) the toolkit that will allow any family or small group to live sustainably in a desert, on the sea, maybe even in an urban high-rise with an absolute minimum of resource inputs, other than solar-derived energy. Recycle everything on-site, including sewage, and get back your own drinking water and fertilizer for gardening.
Once you get over the yuck factor on this idea, just think about it. Space colonization will always be a financial and logistical boondoggle until space settlers can assure their own survival from immediate material resources, plus solar energy. They can't wait for a complete industrial infrastructure to be built for a small city... they need to do it all with the world's smallest complete infrastructure within the spatial confines of today's ISS. And if you can do it in space, what's to keep it from being replicated on a few acres Earth-side?
Now THIS sounds like a compelling challenge for a whole raft of term papers: don't try to replicate a billion dollar ISS or Earth 2; instead, re-invent the smallest, cheapest possible "Earth 2" for replication anywhere, by anyone, with a minimum of mass inputs (once loaded) and just solar, solar-derived (wind, wave) & maybe geothermal as allowed energy inputs.
It's time to take the "Zero Net Energy House" to a whole 'nuther level; & this would join the energies and imaginations of space-oriented folks with sustainable-living folks. to the benefit of both. Just as we currently have a "Mars Simulator" up on Devon Island in Canada's northern territories, anyone who wanted to take on the challenge could do their best to approach the ideal of a "sustainable space capsule" right here on Earth, on the Earth terrain/ climate of their choosing and budget.
And you wouldn't have to wait for NASA's blessing, either. Just start the darn project. As more people took up the challenge, citizens would ask why their governments' space programs weren't following a "truly sustainable protocol."
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Posted by: truly scrumptious on Jul 12, 2006 12:03 PM
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» RE: hmm, let me ammend that--nickptar
Posted by: nickptar
» RE: hmm, let me ammend that--nickptar
Posted by: YogiBear
» There are all sort of rational prejudice...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: There are all sort of rational prejudice...
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: There are all sort of rational prejudice...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: There are all sort of rational prejudice...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
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Posted by: Lefty Fukwitz on Jul 12, 2006 12:34 PM
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Posted by: beksabbath on Jul 12, 2006 2:25 PM
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The most "icky" thing about meat is the suffering and filth. All my life I have dreamed of a pure meat with no gristle.
And what would happen to the livestock? It would be sold and eaten, and hopefully replaced by soybean farms... or freed and maybe we could actually re-establish a natural food chain. Wolves would eat the weak animals, and the cow and pig populations would get stronger. ??
Worried about corporate control of our food supply? Well, how long has the government been doling out huge subsidies to "protein" farmers? And how much tained meat gets past government inspection and into the supermarkets (or soldiers' meals)? Lab meat couldn't be worse than the current system.
I'd rather eat an electrically-exercised whatnot steak that never had a brain, than a hormone/antibiotic saturated beast that suffered its whole life.
BRING ON THE PETRI FISH!
PS - I'd rather have an unlimited supply of cheap tofu than any of this meat madness.
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Posted by: Reader11722 on Jul 12, 2006 3:02 PM
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Final link (before Google Books caves to pressure):
http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/
book_detail.asp?&isbn=0-595-38523-0
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» RE: More Genetically Modified food
Posted by: nickptar
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Posted by: kittynboi on Jul 12, 2006 3:13 PM
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Philosophical luddism is irrelevant.
They've had fake meat for years on Star Trek, and I've always hoped that such a thing could be reality.
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Posted by: hotlipsin61 on Jul 12, 2006 3:21 PM
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Boca burgers claim to be healthier for us, but you have to wonder is eating any kind of conveniently-made processed food is good for us after all.
Are we eating 100 percent chemicals? It does have some soybeans in it, to give it some "flavor" of meat but it's mostly made of meat by-products in some meat-looking foods. But what may pass as meat is not meat sometimes. We think of meat as in the form of a burger or a cut of steak, but think again. Many of us are still wary of eating undercooked meat for catching trichinosis or some other disease. The danger is very real.
It's an old argument, yes, that our parents and nutritionists stress healthy eating, but in our rush-rush world, many of us eat a lot of junk, which over a period of time and the lack of exercise may contribute to obesity and other health-related woes.
We're fortunate to to live in a nation where food is readily available but the proliferation of Whole Foods-type specialty markets and Trader Joes that this readily available food is pricing some out of the market to eat better (and also healthy.)
Eating is expensive now, especially where I live, Los Angeles. I see people spend about $180 on a shopping cart filled with food. Most of that isn't meat.
Do most of us take time to read the labels on foods? It's bad enough that there are fewer meat inspectors to check on the quality of meat we eat and faced with a choice to eat engineered foods-"Frankenfoods"- or buy lower quality food at a discount store means it won't taste good. And what is the alternative? Many families simply can't afford to feed themselves if they spend $100 at Whole Foods compared to a discount store. So they'll go to Wal-Mart.
The cattle industry is a little nervous because they know if consumers purchase more of that type of product they might not sell as much on the market, but that is unlikely to happen. Meat still occupies a great deal of shelf space at many grocery stores.
The solution: People will make some tough choices about what to eat. Pay attention to what you shove down your mouths.
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» On what planet?
Posted by: nickptar
» RE: On what planet?
Posted by: hotlipsin61
» RE: Pay Attention To What You Put Into Your Mouth
Posted by: owleyes
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Posted by: Nosnhoj on Jul 12, 2006 3:31 PM
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Posted by: boygranddakar on Jul 12, 2006 3:40 PM
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Setting domestic animals free, should that even be a possibility, would have disastrous effects on the environment and wild animal species. In Jared Diamond's book, Collapse, he details the consequences from feral goats in one ecosystem - a crisis for native plants (goats eat all the way down to the roots), huge erosion (goats' hooves are sharp and damaging to fragile soils), and massive territory displacement and disease epidemics for existing wild species.
Now expand this one example to the world's cows, goats, sheep, pigs, chickens, and farmed fish. Humans have domesticated animals and lived with them for TENS of thousands of years. You can't just dispose of - or "free" - these animals, that have been selectively bred by and for us, in one fell swoop.
You need to ask yourself, animal rights for which animals?
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» RE: Thousands of years of animal husbandry
Posted by: nickptar
» RE: Thousands of years of animal husbandry
Posted by: superdan
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Posted by: the_contrarian on Jul 12, 2006 4:14 PM
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--But it's just gross!
--No, I can't tell you exactly HOW or WHY it's gross ... just look at it!!! Ick!!! Gross!!!
I mean, look, I'm sure there are some good arguments against the creation of "meat" in labs. I just wish this author had bothered to do some actual -- ahem -- reporting, and found them.
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» RE: Now we're using the other side's rhetorical tricks?
Posted by: bluebonics
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Posted by: johnp on Jul 12, 2006 5:07 PM
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If it's safe; if the body handles it well, etc., I would eat it in a split second. Right now, I'm a vegetarian for all the usual reasons. If I could enjoy the taste, texture and richness of meat, fish, etc., without the usual problems, I'd be delighted. As for the yuck fator. Most of it is due to the fact that you keep talking about it as a "yuck factor."
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Posted by: AndreaN on Jul 12, 2006 6:05 PM
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Posted by: cold2touch on Jul 12, 2006 6:27 PM
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As it is, so much of the processed meat comes fron un-nameable sources, at least the cultured meat has solid provenance and can be made to taste like fish, cow, pig or human, for that matter.
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Posted by: WhuThe?!? on Jul 12, 2006 6:54 PM
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» RE: OOH, new ethical question:
Posted by: owleyes
» RE: OOH, new ethical question:
Posted by: nickptar
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Posted by: superdan on Jul 12, 2006 9:25 PM
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Personally the idea of living, feeling animals being forced to live short, nasty lives, living in their own poo and being pumped full of all sorts of unnatural, yucky things is more "yuck" than the supposed rights of a bunch of cells. Cells do not have rights, cells with functioning nervous systems attached do.
Yay for lab-meat! Serve me up a burger!
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Posted by: owleyes on Jul 12, 2006 9:30 PM
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» RE: I don't see what's so gross about it
Posted by: Dr.Ed
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Posted by: popsicle67 on Jul 12, 2006 9:34 PM
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shut up and quit trying to foist your religion on us. The only way you could reduce the consumption is to reduce the consumers but nobody's going to let you sterilize vast numbers of people so that the population will drop. Sooner rather than later we should be expanding this technology so
that we can finally get ahead of the curve on food supplies.
All of your hand wringing and wishing will just kill people.
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» RE: Let's play what if
Posted by: lowlywyrm
» RE: Let's play what if
Posted by: Graeme
» RE: Let's play what if
Posted by: kittynboi
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Posted by: owlbear1 on Jul 12, 2006 10:09 PM
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Posted by: lowlywyrm on Jul 13, 2006 2:41 PM
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» RE: Here's what's sick...
Posted by: owleyes
» RE: Here's what's sick...
Posted by: Lizard
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Posted by: Uthaclena on Jul 13, 2006 9:55 PM
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The other animals 'red in tooth and fang' don't agonize about their choices: they just do what they do. WE, however, the ethical crown of creation, must argue endlessly about the whys and wherefores. How about we just start trying to be practical? We will not be shouting "HOSANNA!" and giving up our evil ways. We got here over generations.
Is it healthier to eat less meat? YES. We should develop habits that include less meat in our diets.
Is it better environmentally to raise fewer herds of meat, with their techno-attendant support systems? YES. Decreasing our meat consumption will improve our sustainable environment, so we should move in that direction.
Are six billion people too many homo sapiens to sustain for centuries without end? YES. So we should expend energies not only to slow, but reverse population growth before natural disasters - the real negative feedback of the ecosystem - does it for us.
Is it more ethical to avoid meat? If limiting suffering is a worthy value, YES, it is a higher ethic.
Is it unnatural to eat meat? NO. WE'RE part of nature, of the ecologial interplay; we're (near) the top, and upon our demise, we'll be compost, back at the bottom. I don't begrudge the worms their food, don't begrudge me the occasional succulent taste of those lower on the food chain...
Sheet-grown meat never harvested from a sensate animal seems to be the best compromise available, and I think it should be therefore pursued. "YUCK" factor? At some point I discovered that eggplant parmagiana was (for me) actually tastier than veal parm (and guilt free), and they have FINALLY developed soy sausages that taste , and pretty much have the textures of those 'ground tripe-stuffed-in-intestinal-casings' that are so tasty with morning toast or on the grill! instead of squishy, pallid, tofu. It's a cultural evolution thing.
Otherwise, please knock off the ethical holier-than-thou-isms.
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Posted by: BJT on Jul 14, 2006 5:56 AM
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If the market is allowed to decide (without government coercion for or against), it will succeed if it is good and it will fail if it is bad.
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» RE: Sounds efficient to me.
Posted by: Dr.Ed
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Posted by: ReallyBearish on Jul 16, 2006 10:30 AM
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Eating meat is natural and can be environmentally sound. Grain and vegatable farming on marginal land is an ecological and energy disaster. Let's return those lands in the dry west to prairie, and eat what the prairie can support.
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Posted by: Artemis3 on Jul 16, 2006 8:17 PM
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Posted by: Invincibill on Jul 18, 2006 9:56 AM
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No seriously I was joking... it was irony for you Americans who i'm led to believe don't understand irony... look it up! (soz again a joke!)
On a real serious note! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO WAAAAAAAAAAAAY! we'll all be walking round after 3 years wondering why the cute girl down the pub has a horn growning out of her back??!! & remark on how somehow peoples skin is starting to look better leathery!
You know God put man on the planet & gave him the animals to eat, so it's not wrong to eat them! after all their just dumn animals, YES THEY ARE! all i see walking around out their in fields is herds of stake flocks of chicken wings etc etc... "GET IN MY BELLY!"
If God wanted us to grow our own meat he would have said "ok... Adam, your hungry... here is a petri dish... enjoy" Hang on... maybe that's why they ate the apple???
hmmmmmmmmmmmm...
Invincibill
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» RE: Not humane!!!
Posted by: bluebonics
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Posted by: unclebenny on Jul 18, 2006 3:34 PM
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I say keep the science out of my food supply. It's best to allow nature to continue doing what she does best. I have been vegetarian at points in my life, and it's not a big deal for me to go a while without eating meat. But I really don't have any major ethical issues with consuming meat. Humans have evolved to become omnivores.
This would also be an optimal way of controlling and monopolizing our meat supply if it only came from labs most likely controlled by large corps. And what's this about not having to worry about diseases? It seems to me that we have to worry more about disease when humans try to produce something in an unnatural way.
I will hastily say, "No thanks" to any form of lab grown meat.
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Posted by: bluebonics on Jul 19, 2006 3:56 AM
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Posted by: mcooperna on Jul 23, 2006 2:25 PM
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Meat is meat. The cells that comprise the muscle tissue are effectively identical to those grown in an animal. Yes there are differences on the cellular level principally due to the lack of the other tissue types/specific growth signals.
As mentioned, though, this tissue would be completely free of other microorganisms.
As far as genetic engineering goes, well, I'd be happy to go into details. The short of it is that there's no food item artificial genetic manipulation that could impact the consumer's somatic or gametic cells. A virus could, and does, many of your somatic cells have enduring many, many mutations already just as a consequence of replication, environmental exposure, viruses, etc. Luckily, well, by evolution, actually, the vast majority of the time these mutations are to either noncoding sections that either never coded or are permanently turned off. Your adult cone cells in your retina no longer need the code for making a head/arm/spleen to be intact, just what that cells need to do its job.
Anyway, I'm all for vat meat. Fantastic idea. I'm all for GM crops and gamma irradiated food, too.
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