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Without Drastic CO2 Cuts Immediately, the World Faces a Massive 'Oh Shit' Moment

A frightening new climate change study says the United States must eliminate its enormous rate of carbon emission within ten years.
October 15, 2009  |  
 
 
 
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Editor's Note: This is the kickoff to a series of pieces as a Copenhagen Primer about climate change that we will be running in the lead up to the international climate talks in Copenhagen beginning on December 7. Stay tuned.

They say that everyone who finally gets it about climate change has an "Oh, shit" moment -- an instant when the full scientific implications become clear and they suddenly realize what a horrifically dangerous situation humanity has created for itself. Listening to the speeches, ground-breaking in their way, that President Obama and Chinese President Hu Jintao delivered September 22 at the UN Summit on Climate Change, I was reminded of my most recent "Oh, shit" moment. It came in July, courtesy of the chief climate adviser to the German government. Hans Joachim Schellnhuber, chair of an advisory council known by its German acronym, WBGU, is a physicist whose specialty, fittingly enough, is chaos theory. Speaking to an invitation-only conference at New Mexico's Santa Fe Institute, Schellnhuber divulged the findings of a study so new he had not yet briefed Chancellor Angela Merkel about it. The study, Solving the Climate Dilemma: The Budget Approach, has now been published here. If its conclusions are correct -- and Schellnhuber ranks among the world's half-dozen most eminent climate scientists -- it has monumental implications for the pivotal meeting in December in Copenhagen, where world leaders will try to agree on reversing global warming.

Schellnhuber and his WBGU colleagues go a giant step beyond the findings of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the UN body whose scientific reports are constrained because the world's governments must approve their contents. The IPCC says that by 2020 rich industrial countries must cut emissions 25 to 40 percent (compared with 1990) if the world is to have a fair chance of avoiding catastrophic climate change. By contrast, the WBGU study says the United States must cut emissions 100 percent by 2020 -- in other words, quit carbon entirely within ten years. Germany and other industrial nations must do the same by 2025 to 2030. China only has until 2035, and the world as a whole must be carbon free by 2050. The study adds that big polluters can delay their day of reckoning by "buying" emissions rights from developing countries, a step the study estimates would extend some countries' deadlines by a decade or so.

Needless to say, this timetable is light-years more demanding than what the world's major governments are talking about in the run-up to Copenhagen. The European Union has pledged 20 percent reductions by 2020, which it will increase to 30 percent if others -- i.e., the United States -- do the same. Japan's new prime minister likewise has promised 25 percent reductions by 2020 if others do the same. Obama didn't mention a number, but the Waxman-Markey bill, which he supports, would deliver less than 5 percent reductions by 2020. Obama's silence -- doubtless a function of the fact that Republicans are implacably opposed to serious emissions cuts -- allowed Hu to claim the higher ground at the UN. Hu went further than any Chinese leader has before, pledging to curb greenhouse gas emissions growth by a "notable margin" by 2020. Obama dropped his own bombshell, however, urging that all G-20 governments phase out subsidies for fossil fuels. "The time we have to reverse this tide is running out," Obama declared. Alas, the WBGU study suggests that our time is in fact all but gone.

G-8 leaders agreed in July to limit the global temperature rise to 2 degrees C (3.6 F) above the pre-industrial level at which human civilization developed. Schellnhuber, addressing the Santa Fe conference, joked that the G-8 leaders agreed to the 2C limit "probably because they don't know what it means." In fact, even the "brutal" timeline of the WBGU study, Schellnhuber cautioned, would not guarantee staying within the 2 C target. It would merely give humanity a two out of three chance of doing so -- "worse odds than Russian roulette," he wryly noted. "But it is the best we can do." To have a three out of four chance, countries would have to quit carbon even sooner. Likewise, we could wait another decade or so to halt all greenhouse emissions, but this lowers the odds of hitting the 2 C target to fifty-fifty. "What kind of precautionary principle is that?" Schellnhuber asked.

There is a fundamental political assumption underlying the WBGU study: that the right to emit greenhouse gases is shared equally by all people on earth. Known in diplomatic circles as "the per capita principle," this approach has long been insisted upon by China and most other developing countries and thus is seen as essential to an agreement in Copenhagen, though among G-8 leaders only Merkel has endorsed it. The WBGU study applies the per capita principle to the world population of 7 billion people and arrives at an annual emissions quota of 2.8 tons of carbon dioxide per person. That's harsh news for Americans, who emit twenty tons per person annually, and it explains why the US deadline is the most imminent. But China won't welcome this study either. China's combination of high annual emissions and huge population gives it a deadline only a few years later than Europe's and Japan's.

"I myself was terrified when I saw these numbers," Schellnhuber told me. He urges governments to agree in Copenhagen to launch "a Green Apollo Project." Like John Kennedy's pledge to land a man on the moon in ten years, a global Green Apollo Project would aim to put leading economies on a trajectory of zero carbon emissions within ten years. Combined with carbon trading with low-emissions countries, Schellnhuber says, such a "wartime mobilization" might still save us from the worst impacts of climate change. The alternative is more and more "Oh, shit" moments for all of us.

Mark Hertsgaard, a fellow of The Open Society Institute, is The Nation magazine's environment correspondent. His new book, Living Through the Storm: How Our Children Can Survive the Next 50 Years of Climate Change, is forthcoming from Houghton Mifflin.
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Carter had the country's oh shit moment in the late 70's
Posted by: pelican beak on Oct 15, 2009 1:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and we've been running away from it ever since.

That's been our national characteristic.

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» Another conservative nutcase Posted by: pelican beak

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Eye of the Beholder
Posted by: Revolutionary (Direct) Democracy on Oct 15, 2009 1:24 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Global crisis is just another revenue stream to the financiers.

They sell guns and then start wars.

They mutate viruses and then sell vaccines.

They make global warming inevitable and then they'll sell us water and food.

FREE AMERICA

REVOLUTIONARY (DIRECT) DEMOCRACY

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» RE: ye of the Beholder Posted by: richholland

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Too late, but not humanity's worst problem
Posted by: ender on Oct 15, 2009 1:25 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm sorry, but even if all CO2 emissions right now - today - dropped to zero, we would still continue warming since we are beyond the critical tipping point. It's simply too late now to concentrate solely on reductions on greenhouse gases. We need to concentrate resources on preparations to survive the challenges of global climate change, as well as continued reductions.

I hate to add something kind of off-topic, but the most immediate danger to humanity is the death of the oceans.

As a species, we seem to be great at being able to ignore the elephant in the room. The oceans are "out of sight, out of mind" but although we can live on a hot Earth, we can't live without healthy oceans.

Think about how long you could live without air conditioning. Now, how long could you go without food? How long without fresh water? How long without oxygen?

We rely on the oceans for all four of those things.

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Addressing climate change is possible and has many great side-effects
Posted by: cplot on Oct 15, 2009 1:52 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While written in terms of the US possibilities and focussed somewhat on Illinois, “2020 Vision: A strategic response to the urgent crisis of climate change” provides a clear way to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions by 2020.

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ProfKen
Posted by: ProfBob on Oct 15, 2009 2:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Warming is here. Coring in the Atlantic and Antarctica and many other measures show it. But it is not our major problem!
According to an article in Science Daily (April 20, 2009), a survey of the faculty at the State University of New York, which has a very strong environmental science department, the planet’s major environmental problem is overpopulation.. Climate change is second. This echoes the theme of the popular free ebook series “And Gulliver Returns” –In Search of Utopia—(http://andgulliverreturns.info) As one professor at SUNY said “With ten million or even a hundred million people on the planet there would be no warming problem.” It is both the technology and the number of people using it that create so many of our planetary problems.
There is no question that China's one child policy has helped the world and the Chinese economy. Whenever a country attempts to reduce its population it can expect a two or three generation period of problems while deaths reduce to equal births. I hope that China will recognize this fact and keep its own population on the path to reduction--which should begin by 2050. China's actual fertility rate is not 1.0 per woman, but 1.8--the same as Norway's. But that
But it is politically more popular for Western nations to attack warming than overpopulation.

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» RE: ProfKen Posted by: richholland
» RE: ProfKen Posted by: jal64
» So what? Posted by: themotie

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The Planet's major problem is a greedy USA
Posted by: Lese Majeste on Oct 15, 2009 3:14 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the planet’s major environmental problem is overpopulation

Wrong. It's an America that has lived the good life by controlling and using the world's resources for decades to support our extravagent lifestyle.

We've been taught to 'Shop till you drop' and boy do we take that advice to heart.

5% of the world's population that uses up over 25% of its resources and in the process, create a mountain of CO2.

We've created a Pentagon monster to do our dirty work while we sit on our fat asses, eating potato chips and watching "Dancing with the Stars."
A Pentagon that is the world's largest consumer of oil, other than nations.
A Pentagon that is an insatiable beast that always seems to find wars in oil-rich areas.

Until we learn how to restrain ourselves and 'Just say NO' to our impulsive ways, the planet will continue to suffer.

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» Overpopulation AND overconsumption Posted by: rational_moderate

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There are bright signs, on the political horizon.
Posted by: Squarehead on Oct 15, 2009 3:56 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's all pretty scary, folks, so we had better get our ass in gear pdq.

Of, course, there are hopeful signs too. E.g., the PRC had a renewables target of (I think) 7% by 2009. They have surpassed that, and have a new target of 15% by 2020. Not quite enough, but the right attitude.

There are bright signs, on the political horizon. E.g. this committment of the leadership of PRC to combatting climate change, and the greater degree of committment shown by Pres. Barack Obama. And there are technical solutions, which are vast in scale, but have the benefit of being carbon negative in the medium and long term.

The primary example I think of is serious addressment of solar energy, in the model suggested by Richard E Smalley, in his paper 'The Terawatt Challenge' (look it up)
http://cohesion.rice.edu/NaturalSciences/Smalley/ emplibrary/120204%20MRS%20Boston.pdf

Forget about the politics expressed, look only at the science.

In USA, you all consume resources at a level of (equivalence) ~ 22 tons of CO2 production per year, per person. Therefore some people are consuming at a level of 100s of tons. We all need to reduce our consumption to 1 - 2 tons per person. And we can, if we embrace renewable energy, systematic quality, and total recycling. Only thing is, we need to have that in place within 10 (?) years.

I think we can do it.

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» Why So Optimistic? Posted by: ChicagoWay
» Don't rely on nuclear Posted by: LightningJoe
» Nonsense Joe Posted by: ChicagoWay

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China's Per Capita versus Total Emissions
Posted by: femtobeam on Oct 15, 2009 4:10 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The German report charts are misleading and so is China's insistence on per capita emissions. The chart groups countries together in 3 groups and does not address the fact that China has gone from number 7 in 1950 to number 1 in CO2 emissions. CO2 is CO2.

The only purpose of attaching a dollar figure to a climate change debate is for Hu Jintau to say that until China's giant population has the same standard of living as the US they will continue to force trade issues at the expense of US jobs to China.

They are the number one polluter and they should not be given any incentives to continue their population trends by making pollution a per capita issue.

Oddly, Secretary Chu, in opposition to Obama, was quoted as saying if he was making the decision, he would put all of DOE money into electric vehicles. This does nothing to benefit the US economy with the exception of auto workers who also have to compete with low wage jobs in China and elsewhere.

It only helps the utility companies who are giant polluters in the US, with coal fired and other industrial pollutants. There is no guarantee that the electrical bill for your car will be any cheaper than the fuel costs were. That is, if people can afford to buy new cars at all.

After the big hoorah for stimulous money, companies were invited to submit proposals to the DOE to produce biofuels. The fine print revealed that in exchange for this money the submitters were required to give up their techology rights. Chu then announced that he was establishing a joint technology transfer to China of these US innovations, which were supposed to create a huge number of "Green Jobs". Van Jones was supposed to oversee this role before he was dismissed.

Now, China has announced huge fields of Jatropha facilities to provide the future of biofuels using much of the US innovation Chu obtained in the DOE proposals. In addition, they just signed a deal with Russia to buy 1.8 Trillion cubic feet of natural gas. The photograph shows clapping and smiling Chinese and downcast Putin and Russians.

Meanwhile, Hillary was in Moscow meeting with lower level representatives while Putin was there.

All of this combined with the "Secret Meetings" about not using the dollar for oil and gas that drew so many responses on the Alternet thread, shows that we have no job future, no biofuels support, no manufacturing support and maybe very high costs of electricity for electric cars and consumer electronic equipment, again manufactured in China.

We will be spending borrowed money from China on goods from China to reduce our CO2 emissions. At the same time we will be destroying our economy while China's economy is improved as the Worlds largest polluters due to the "per capita" rule. For those that cannot afford to buy a new electric car, they will now have to buy biofuels from a subsidized, dumping, low wage earning China instead of Saudi Arabia. That is, unless the manufacturing industry is supported in the US without Gov support.

Chu should be dismissed for this trick on the US biofuels industry along with the big oil companies who control this agenda with the power plants and utility companies, while obtaining huge profits as subcontractors to the DOE.

And how much was passed along to the biofuels out of all the monies available? Just $20,000!

The sad part is, China is buying up and consuming the Worlds resources with the money it has made off of the US consumer. They own the Congo, have invested heavily in Central and South America and even are snapping up what there is of US companies, like Solix in Colorado by Shanghai bank.

http://www.mother space jones.com/politics/2009/09/algae-energy-orgy


http://biofuelsdigest.com

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UK's Daily Mail Takes The Piss Out Of The Global Warming Religious Cult
Posted by: tony_opmoc on Oct 15, 2009 4:41 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It was someone in the BBC a few days ago, now a journalist at the Daily Mail is at it. Both the Mail and the BBC have been virtually 100% behind the cult with their pro Global Warming Propaganda Nonsense. Looks like the Bought and Paid Media Management are losing control of their staff. I wonder if they will get fired for being "off message"

Whatever happened to global warming? How freezing temperatures are starting to shatter climate change theory



By Daily Mail Reporter
Last updated at 7:59 AM on 14th October 2009

In the freezing foothills of Montana, a distinctly bitter blast of revolution hangs in the air.

And while the residents of the icy city of Missoula can stave off the -10C chill with thermals and fires, there may be no easy remedy for the wintry snap's repercussions.

The temperature has shattered a 36-year record. Further into the heartlands of America, the city of Billings registered -12C on Sunday, breaking the 1959 barrier of -5C.

Closer to home, Austria is today seeing its earliest snowfall in history with 30 to 40 centimetres already predicted in the mountains.

Such dramatic falls in temperatures provide superficial evidence for those who doubt that the world is threatened by climate change.

But most pertinent of all, of course, are the growing volume of statistics.

According to the National Climatic Data Centre, Earth's hottest recorded year was 1998.

If you put the same question to NASA, scientists will say it was 1934, followed by 1998. The next three runner-ups are 1921, 2006 and 1931.

Which all blows a rather large hole in the argument that the earth is hurtling towards an inescapable heat death prompted by man's abuse of the environment.

Indeed, some experts believe we should forget global warming and turn our attention to an entirely differently phenomenon - global cooling.

The evidence for both remains inconclusive, which is unlikely to help the legions of world leaders meeting in Copenhagen in December to negotiate a new climate change deal.

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» Gravity is a lie Posted by: Karlh
» Rabid Capitalist Posted by: leafsong1
» I've got a bridge to sell you, tony Posted by: hurricane hugo
» RE: Great comment! Posted by: wagner

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We like to claim evolutionary supremacy
Posted by: PJAW on Oct 15, 2009 5:02 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
but we continue to behave like an invasive species with almost no real self-awareness. Okay, some people don't "believe" in evolution, for them the narrative is "God made us the bestest beast in the jungle", whatever. We've been running around with those foam fingers on, chanting "We're number one!" for awhile now, though not with any real impact on the planetary ecology til the industrial revolution kicked into high gear.

Now, we might be totally screwed. Or not. I've always been of the mindset that the globe is in fact experiencing a warming period, and that we humans (as a byproduct of our activity) are making a contribution to that. Given the dire consequences predicted for runaway warming, my position has been, "Let's at least make adjustments to minimize our contribution and perhaps extend our reign here on Earth. It really wouldn't be all that difficult to transition to a new energy technology if we all put our minds to it. It could even be a fun adventure. And we should stop having so many babies while we're at it, eh?"

Of course I'm not the only, and certainly not the loudest, voice carrying that message. I realize I'm actually quite insignificant, and generally a poor example of progress in that direction, but I make an effort.

Well, maybe none of it means shit anyway, and if it truly does, it's likely too late, things are in motion that we cannot reverse and it's only our egos that want us to believe differently.

But wait! Maybe not. You know that whole Mayan Calendar thing and the 25,800 year cycle the planet goes through (with the rest of the solar system) as it travels around the galaxy, periodically passing through the galactic equator? Yeah, you know what I'm talking about don't you? Well, I've read where the earth actually experiences a period of global cooling right after we've made such a pass (which we're doing right now). Sooo..., who the hell really knows? It's actually possible that our contribution to global warming may in fact simply moderate a coming period of cooling. Just like some of the rightwing nut jobs have been yammering about. (though I doubt they've invested much real thought into it)

Of course other things might happen too as we go through this transition period. The temporary alignment with the galactic equator might have subtle effects on the stability of the planets rotational axis or the rate of tectonic movement and other crustal stability. We don't have a written history of what happens every 25,800 years. As a species, we have apparently lived through quite a few, but we don't really know what level of technological development we've achieved in the past. Presumably, where we are now is about as far as we've ever come. At least you would expect there would be SOME evidence if we had gotten this far before, but I don't recall anyone ever finding any and talking about it. Who knows, subtle, global changes could have tremendous impact on what we've established here as "human civilization".

Anyway, it seems that we're once again cresting the first hill on the global roller coaster, keep your arms inside the car and try not to throw up or wet your pants.

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emissions per capita is foolish
Posted by: drosera on Oct 15, 2009 5:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The atmosphere doesn't care if greenhouse gases come from China or the United States. It doesn't care how many people live within mythical national borders. The only thing that matters is how much of the stuff is generated. I would like to see a tax levied on the carbon dioxide emitting infrastructure of every country. You build a coal burner in China, you pay. You build one in the US, you pay. The money, of course, would go to developing countries which cannot afford up-to-date technology.

That said, this new report does nothing to make me want to change my life habits because the bar is set impossibly high. "Eat, drink, and be merry" I say. The population crash to come will solve the problem. Of course, it may take a while for the planet to recover from its infection

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The real no sh*t moment arrives when ...
Posted by: peppylapew on Oct 15, 2009 6:08 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... people wake up to the fact that they've been conned on "climate change."

An article in Science recently "settled the question" regarding the ice-age cycle: it's caused by tiny changes in incident solar heating, themselves the result of the planet's axial wobble. Not CO2. And guess what? The latest warming trend --- a 19,000-year phase --- is ending. The next stage is global cooling.

article here

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» That's what I've always said Posted by: tommy_slothrop
» It is so nice to see... Posted by: wagner

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WE COULD DO IT IF...
Posted by: bryangalt on Oct 15, 2009 6:56 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the emergency of WW2, the US government was persuaded to start the Manhattan project out of fears that Germany and Japan would build the atomic bomb and use it on us unless we built one first.

The bomb came from theory and made it into a deliverable weapon in just four years. An example of the monumental effort would be the construction of Oak Ridge Tennessee, which was built from scratch by thousands of workers. When they were done, tens of thousands more moved into the newly constructed city to service the uranium collection facility, a facility so large it used 30% of all the electricity in the country.

Now, if we applied this emergency model and mentality to global warming, and to moving our country to non-carbon energy sources, we would be the undisputed leaders in the cause, but also in a much better position to help save our species from serious hard times. We also would be saving tens of thousands of other species too, which are seriously under represented at the climate talks.

Frankly, personally, I think we are too lazy, and that the corporations are too greedy for us to do what is needed to save ourselves. The fact are in and if we were truly interested in changing enough to save humanity, we would have. That's a shame.

Bryan Galt's Blog

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Gore wins a Nobel prize for climate change, but he's not a climatologist, meteorologist, nor
Posted by: JohnTruth2001 on Oct 15, 2009 7:01 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
any sort of scientist!? Obama wins a Nobel prize as a peacemaker, but he's caused no peace to occur!?

Does carbon dioxide really cause climate change??? I own a large bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you!!!

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Flawed assumption
Posted by: daw13 on Oct 15, 2009 7:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"There is a fundamental political assumption underlying the WBGU study: that the right to emit greenhouse gases is shared equally by all people on earth."

The fundamental assumption of world oligarchs is quite the opposite. This article indicates quite vividly to me that the sort of scenario described by George Orwell in 1984 may be far more likely to emerge than one in which powers-that-be attempt to insure that all citizens of Earth survive the challenges ahead. What shapes up is a war of haves against have-nots, on a global scale. The article, book, film still hiding in the shadows explores not only issues of decency, ethics, morality in this context, but the feasibility of it. Can haves any longer feasibly expect havenots conveniently to disappear? Can haves any longer easily dispense with them if they do not? Or do we now truly inhabit a global community where the fate of some is the fate of all?

Sadly, this question must finally be exposed and dealt with. I have no doubt of the result of the dialogues it may engender. Global class warfare can only result in universal chaos. But until this is clear, our citizens, and those of other well established oligarchies, will only hold their noses and deplore the efforts of their leaders to massacre billions.

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A SURPRISING POSSIBLE SOLUTION!
Posted by: MarkGoldes on Oct 15, 2009 7:40 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let the love affair with vehicles lead to rapid reduction in the need for fossil fuels! See the article: 5 Steps to Revive the Auto Industry and the Economy on the Aesop Institute website: http://www.aesopinstitute.org

The two pages outline little known breakthrough technology that opens paths to cars that need no fossil fuel or recharge.

Later, more advanced versions can turn cars into power plants, wirelessly able to sell power to the local utility when parked.

Imagine the impact of cars and trucks that emit no pollution and can pay for themselves, as well as end the need to build coal or nuclear power plants!

Visualize electric cars that need no recharge! Also, hybrids with engines that need only one gallon of water as fuel every 1,000 miles. As impossible as it sounds, these technologies are now on the horizon.

Rowan University recently published results of experiments that can only be explained by a new source of energy. Other laboratories can readily reproduce them. Skeptical scientists should see that these experiments are reproduced rapidly, so that they may form their own conclusions.

The experiments indicate that one barrel of water can equal 200 barrels of oil!

These revolutionary technologies hold promise of generating millions of green jobs!

They will change much of what is believed about energy and help reverse some of the trends that threaten catastrophe.

The job now is to accelerate the process!

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» Repeal the laws of thermodynamics!!! Posted by: tommy_slothrop

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The myth of global warming
Posted by: solrev on Oct 15, 2009 7:43 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The myth is that scientists have a clue, but they do not and they know it. They create fantastic models based on data collected, and then they extrapolate to guess at what is going to happen. All these models make a similar assumption, if every thing remains constant other than the data I am using in my model here is what will happen. Scientists know that extrapolation is a dangerous game and nothing more than a best guess based on some set of data. Will green house gases trap solar energy, of course, you learned that in grade school when you studied Venus, but you probably forgot. My best guess without any scientific data is that half the people on this planet are going to die. This is not based on scientific data but human behavior. As long as the decisions being made are primarily based on economics, we will do nothing until we start dropping like flies. We in all likelihood will end up with pockets of Paleolithic survivors. All our grand knowledge will be stored away for another day. Hopefully the survivors will remember how to recall the knowledge when they could put it to better use than we did. Global warming is just the sound of the first trumpet, we had better be able to use the knowledge before we half to dance to the music of the other three. They are a lot tougher than global warming. Hell, grab the gusto while you can, extinction is the natural order based on any scientific model. Maybe we mystics will be among the survivors and there is nothing natural about us, we would just dwell in the garden by the sweat of our brow, the tree of knowledge served its purpose.

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What does that mean
Posted by: Archie1954 on Oct 15, 2009 8:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
for me? Do I have to get rid of my four cars, only one of which is an SUV? Does that mean no more quiet evenings by the roaring fireplace? How about no more roast beef dinners? Will my meat consumption have to be drastically curtailed? What about all of our imported fruits and vegetables from overseas, does that mean back to cabbage slaw during the winters like 50 years ago? What about my plans for worldwide travel when I retire? Now will I have to sit on a rocking chair on my front porch instead of learning the Samba in Rio? I think we are all going to die!

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» Pretty much Posted by: tommy_slothrop

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Mark, you're full of 'shift'...
Posted by: Prinzowhales on Oct 15, 2009 9:18 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
CO2 levels have been much higher in the past and things were just fine...in fact, civilization flourished. The whole 'Gore-baloney' over warming is to justify a carbon tax on the people.

The oceans are screwed up because we are dumping garbage in them...mercury from coal fired electric plants, etc. which has provided us with dangerous levels of that deadly heavy metal in oceans and marine life. Yet, the response of the Oil-igarchy is NOT to move into a rapid mass production of alternatives such as solar panels etc., it has been to give tax credits to buy gas guzzlers...dumb-ass stunts to give billions in subsidies to auto companies through the backdoor with the clunker trade-in farce...and, of course, to give trillions to the banks who ultimately control the oil companies--Rockefeller is to oil what he is to banking, etc....and what did we get for our trillions?--the opportunity to pay interest on new debt.

Obama and McCain are on the same team--Team International Banker--and behind them are lined up the dumb animals who vote mainstream Republican and Democrat...and those who write swill for THE NATION.

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» Guess again Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Its not a guess Posted by: Prinzowhales

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Good article & great comments, but, let's face it, folks
Posted by: willymack on Oct 15, 2009 9:28 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We've ALREADY blown it. Big time.
The only question remaining is how horrible the coming disaster will be.
Will we somehow survive our maniflod follies, only to begin the whole process anew, emerge as a wiser, more humble species, or eke out a grim existence, using Soylent Green to sustain us?
We, with the big brains loudly proclaiming our "superiority" over lifeforms which have susvived natural catastrophes for tens of millions of years are on the cusp of mass suicide, and will most likely take some of the most noble creatures ever to grace this beautiful, tragic world with us.

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Heh. Heh, heh. A Little Schadenfreude Anyone?
Posted by: Cherenkovrad on Oct 15, 2009 9:34 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a resolute adherent to the idea that we would be better off to abandon the entire industrial "civilization" thing immediately, I can only laugh at the people who are still trying to find that magical techno-bullet that will let the planet destroyers continue business as usual.

At one time in my life, I had considered becoming one of the monkey-wrenchers, had thought I could help slow if not stop the suicidal fools raping the planet. I know better now in the sense that the earth cares not whether humanity is here or not. No matter how much damage we do, the earth will keep rolling round and round, completely oblivious to its passengers, dead or alive.

I realized also that in the next few years, as the ramifications of our reckless plunder and destruction become manifest, people will begin to die. Not the normal trickle of additional people who may or may not be the victim of global climate change, but an accelerating deluge of death. And, it will not be limited to the third world. No, that far away buffer zone where our mistakes go to roost and kill, will not perform its job as a bullet stopper for our folly. No. We will starve and riot and die of thirst just like the third world. We will have turned out to be human, fallible, and certainly not exceptional.

Thank the invisible sky being of your choice that I am old. I will die within twenty years one way or another. I feel for the young, for my children, who will suffer extraordinary privation, unknown terrors, and a dying civilization.

But mostly I harbor a bit of Schadenfreude, a bit of glee at the fate of humanity, a species that refuses to listen to reason, facts, or anything that asks them to let go of the banana. Greedy monkey, holding onto the banana in the staked down jar, seeing the hunter coming for him, his heart pounding, fear coursing through his veins, knowing what he should do but not doing it lest he be forced to give up the banana he has in his hand. IT'S IN MY HAND!!! The monkey thinks. Look at it with all its technical perfection, its promise of ease and luxury. Isn't it better to hang onto this bit of luxury for as long as possible and maybe, just maybe escape the hunter?

Small sigh and a chuckle. No. The monkey is killed. And so will we be killed by our small-minded insistence on keeping that damned banana in the face of certain destruction.

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» Right There With Ya ... Posted by: iolanthe

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We Could Have Been Symbionts ...
Posted by: iolanthe on Oct 15, 2009 10:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We could have been symbionts, not just parasites.

We could have spent this century ensuring a basic comfortable standard of living for every human on earth, thanks to family planning technology (even *apart* from abortion).

We could have learned to work *with* nature, not against it.

But no. It was more important to let *some* people stash away billions and billions of dollars of other peoples' money. Anything else would have been *COMMUNISM*.

Seems the "Freedom" we're so sworn to uphold involves the freedom to waste, to spoil, to trash this beautiful place.

Sigh.

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Well, that's Obama:
Posted by: oregoncharles on Oct 15, 2009 12:52 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Great speech, no action.

"Oh, Shit!" Just heard another scary presentation on climate change, last night.

So where's the desperate, drastic action we so desperately need?

Well, Congress is working, oh-so-slowly, on a severely compromised version of cap-and-trade - which is mostly a chance for Gov't Sachs to make another huge killing in yet another new "market" - the "trade" it refers to.

The notion that Goldman Sachs is pulling the strings of our entire political system becomes more plausible all the time.

What isn't plausible is this cap-and-trade bill as a way to end our carbon emissions. Not happening.

So is ANYTHING happening, besides pretty speeches?

Oh, yeah: they're working up a huge bailout for the health-insurance industry, at our expense. I'm so relieved.

If you want Change (without quote marks), you'll have to try something new, like voting for a party that actually believes in it:

www.gp.org

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» RE: False naivete: Posted by: oregoncharles

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Support a strong climate bill
Posted by: greenferret on Oct 15, 2009 1:13 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The climate targets currently proposed by Washington are unbearably weak - far behind what the IPCC says would give us a 50:50 chance of avoiding disaster.

Tell President Obama and your senators to support a 40% emissions reduction by 2020 to avert crisis

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are you fucken kidding.. its col' outside!!...
Posted by: Annapurna1 on Oct 15, 2009 2:08 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
its fucken SNOWING in innsmouth..before weave even started raking the fucken leaves!!...the global warming ppl have it all backwards ..the world is getting alot colder..not warmer...now is not the time to stop greenhouse emissions.. but rather to determine how much greenhouse emissions are necessary to stop another ice age while not making it too hot...

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» RE: Unforgivable ignorance. Posted by: oregoncharles

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Not a chance!
Posted by: dayahka on Oct 15, 2009 7:07 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's assume that it has been demonstrated conclusively that CO2 is the cause and not simply a concomitant of climate change.

Now, what do we do? Adapt or mitigate? Adapt by moving underground, growing food underground, moving higher up into the mountains, abandoning coastal or low-lying cities? Mitigate by trying to cut off completely the carbon-based civilization? Which one? And will be do whatever is selected?

Nah! There's not a chance of a snowflake in Death Valley that we'll do anything in time. Catastrophe will come, many will die, then from the ashes humans may try to keep going on a much lower level. So long as the corporations are in charge and governments are owned by the moneyed class, so long will we do nothing substantive.

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Another possibility...
Posted by: jparsons on Oct 15, 2009 7:16 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...but unpopular with the nonprogressives here.

Animals and methane

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global warming?... dunno about you guys BUT...
Posted by: Bearzerker on Oct 15, 2009 9:17 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...spring was way late for the town where i live...
and winter, I've already got snow outside my yard and have had it for over a week now...
same as last year...
Dr. Ivan Seminak said it best when he mentioned on the Discovery Channel, that if global warming was a man made catastrophy in the making then why are the other global bodies in our solar system loosing their polar caps in much the same way we are?

personally i think C02 emmissions are a global concern for sure,
but the cause and effects need a real look as i believe the real reason for C02 spikes are;
1.)global deforestation
2.)global population explosion
3.)global desertifcation
4.)global water needs
4.)global ocean overfishing
the list can go on but if you want to curb C02 emmisions... lets get behind global plans to plant trees and shore up dwindling fresh water supplies, and regulations to the global fishing fleet

the free ticket we/mankind has enjoyed for the past millenium[s]is over... get used to it!!!
we need real people to come up with real plans now... quack scientists and fear-mongers need not apply!

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global warming?... dunno about you guys BUT...
Posted by: Bearzerker on Oct 15, 2009 9:17 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...spring was way late for the town where i live...
and winter, I've already got snow outside my yard and have had it for over a week now...
same as last year...
Dr. Ivan Seminak said it best when he mentioned on the Discovery Channel, that if global warming was a man made catastrophy in the making then why are the other global bodies in our solar system loosing their polar caps in much the same way we are?

personally i think C02 emmissions are a global concern for sure,
but the cause and effects need a real look as i believe the real reason for C02 spikes are;
1.)global deforestation
2.)global population explosion
3.)global desertifcation
4.)global water needs
4.)global ocean overfishing
the list can go on but if you want to curb C02 emmisions... lets get behind global plans to plant trees and shore up dwindling fresh water supplies, and regulations to the global fishing fleet

the free ticket we/mankind has enjoyed for the past millenium[s]is over... get used to it!!!
we need real people to come up with real plans now... quack scientists and fear-mongers need not apply!

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Unadulterated hoax, nothing more, nothing less
Posted by: wagner on Oct 15, 2009 9:19 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At the beginning of the history of Earth ALL carbon currently trapped in the fossil deposits was present in what eventually became the biosphere. Nevertheless, there is no evidence in the fossil records suggesting, that CO2 at any time has been associated with any negative consequences to life on our planet. On the contrary, the more carbon was available, the more vigorous the biota was. Even during the relatively recent human history, the last "global warming" benefitted not only the Viking settlements on Greenland, but the entire population on record. The "little ice age" following that global warming not only wiped out the Viking settlements, but also spelled misery all over Europe. So, let's enjoy global warming to the fullest and take advantage of its consequences, that include expansion into vast areas in Canada and Siberia currently too cold for agriculture, industry and business. CO2 is essential for life on Earth; without it life would not be possible the way we know it.

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» A planet unfit for mammals Posted by: leafsong1

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$olution for Climate Change Issue?
Posted by: RICHARD RALPH ROEHL on Oct 15, 2009 9:41 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
According to Mr. Oxycontin and other right-$winging propagandists on Amerikan talk hate radio (a.k.a.: "the liberal [sic] media"), the only real solution for climate change issues is tax cuts for the rich... especially Wall $treet banksters. And according to them, the same holds true for health care reform: tax cuts for insurance conglomerates.

Where there is no insight, the people perish. Thus... we predict that corp-rat fascist Amerika will not exist in 30-40 earth years.

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More like an "OH Bull s$$$ moment". Here is
Posted by: SamFox on Oct 16, 2009 12:34 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the real "Oh S###" moment-

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog.php?view=26474

SamFox

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At one time in my life
Posted by: fredtowson on Oct 16, 2009 10:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At one time in my life, I had considered becoming one of the monkey-wrenchers, had thought I could help slow if not stop the suicidal fools raping the planet. I know better now in the sense that the earth cares not whether humanity is here or not. No matter how much damage we do, the earth will keep rolling round and round, completely oblivious to its passengers, dead or alive.

I realized also that in the next few years, as the ramifications of our reckless plunder and destruction become manifest, people will begin to die. Not the normal trickle of additional people who may or may not be the victim of global climate change, but an accelerating deluge of death. And, it will not be limited to the third world. No, that far away buffer zone where our mistakes go to roost and kill, will not perform its job as a bullet stopper for our folly. No. We will starve and riot and die of thirst just like the third world. We will have turned out to be human, fallible, and certainly not exceptional.

Thank the invisible sky being of your choice that I am old. I will die within twenty years one way or another. I feel for инструкции к мобильным телефонам шрифты для word шрифты дизайнерам постеры к сериалам постеры seropol5 the young, for my children, who will suffer extraordinary privation, unknown terrors, and a dying civilization.

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SOLID GOLD pollution bonanaza or dystopic watershed
Posted by: wolvedrive on Oct 16, 2009 2:10 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't know weather to pray or vote,on one hand tyme moves on and on the other,evolution(R),may be naturally occurred, artifically induced,antagonistically escalated,instagated,provoked,stressed even destabalized to get the desired result,aka effect,aftermath,solution or stabalized state of equalibrium(inert nuetrallazation-aka physical pascification)OO,prey for yer own dears, vote for a career stranger,that trusts' thair own back ** ALL CHARACTERAZATIONS IMPLIED have no resemblence to the AF-PAK scenerio and are "purely co-incidental OO

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I actually never had one of those moments,
Posted by: LightningJoe on Oct 16, 2009 4:54 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...Because I realized the meat of the idea so long ago that, unfamiliar with the massive capitalist inertia in our society, and our deep reluctance to face change, I naively assumed that, like feminism (I also thought), this new information would transform our way of looking at how we operate in the world, what the planetary consequences of our actions really were. I thought the scientific consensus would carry the weight it has earned with the public, we who for-a-purpose fund those endeavors to discover the patterns our world goes through.

What I never counted on was how deeply the fear of change affects what people do; and how deeply afraid of the very concept of climate change, we as a nation are. I've spent the years since that realization in and out of depression on this score, because the refusal to recognize a problem's existence is a more or less permanent block to solving that problem. Until we collectively acknowledge that climate change is real, that we are responsible, and that change can (can it still?) happen, we are powerless to do anything to call off the major changes in our lives that are coming. And the longer we put off those changes, the harder it will be to change, and the less we can expect from the exercise -- both for us and for what remains of "nature" on our planet.

We've set ourselves up as the caretakers of the planet, and through this too-long courtship with disaster, we finally can see that we are no such thing, for all our self-assured, self-complementing press on the subject. The world is dying on our watch. The nature of the threat means that we can't see the problem even at this point unless we trust science and scientists to find out the truth for us. The nature of the threat also promises decades if not centuries of later leasure in which to reflect on our current sins.

One ironically mixed blessing: people don't live forever. If they did, there would be no end to the climate denial -- because neither does it appear that all of us can change our minds about what we believe, when presented with the clear evidence that a change is in order. I have older relatives who will go to their graves denying AGCC (Anthropogenic Global Climate Change).

But the positive aspect of that -- at least in terms of AGCC response, is that at least they and their Reich-Wing opinions WILL die, leaving behind those of us who are capable of knowing better. Even if that knowledge will be used too late in the game to save most of our planet's species, we still have a prayer of limiting damages if we act SOON.

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PURE BALONEY
Posted by: reelman on Oct 19, 2009 3:40 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I taught college science 27 years and have a PhD...the earth has not warmed since 1998 and any text will tell you this planet will freeze as nuclear reactions reduce the size of the sun to heat us...its that matter to energy thing.

This is why Gore refuses debate...why should ANY alarmist refuse debate?

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» RE: PURE BALONEY Posted by: Squarehead

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Jarhead
Posted by: Jarhead on Oct 20, 2009 2:01 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The study makes no sense. China now leads the world in greenhouse gas emissions, and is ever increasing its emissions through the building of dozens of coal fired power plants per year and other industry and transportation. But China doesn't have to go to zero until 2035. U.S. is slowly reducing its GHG emissions, and is even now emitting less GHG than China, but must U.S. must reduce all emissions by 2020.

The study is clearly erroneous. If the goal is to reduce GW by reducing GHG, then reducing emissions in China should be top priority.

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Another Unworkable "Oh Shit" Eco Study - Same Old Same Old
Posted by: ChicagoWay on Oct 20, 2009 4:58 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It makes one want to scream. I have been seeing this same tired BS from eco warriors and 'social reformers' (read Marxist) for years.

The truth is MANY enviro-activist do not give a rat's ass about really solving the problem of GH gases. Many of them only use "climate change" as a phony argument to totally re-make society or are nothing but radical anti-capitalist. Their draconian social goals and sentiments are far more important to many of them.

I've said it before and will say it again. *IF* the far left and eco warriors were really serious about dramatically reducing CO2 and other GH gases one would see MASSIVE protests in FAVOR of expanding nuclear power, which really could go a long way in solving the actual problem.

Instead the far left - especially groups like Green Peace - have been responsible for vigorous protest to shut down the nuclear industry, while at the same time we see the same lame and unworkable solutions offered over and over again for at least 20 years... meaning "solar and wind" ...and which still only represent about 1% of total US electricity generation.

Worse, these zealous social reforners are now trying to sell hugely complicated 'share-the-pain' and world-wide quota schemes - like Cap & Trade or Kyoto-like fantasies - where the US and others take the brunt of the economic pain, while China and others see very little responsiblity in comparison.

Many of these so-called solutions are NOT based on science or current economic reality, but rather RAW emotion and wishful thinking by very zealous and unrealistic social reformers wanting to totally re-make societies or get rid of 'evil capitalism.'

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» No It Can NOT (unforunately) Posted by: ChicagoWay

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Until that day
Posted by: donotworry on Oct 21, 2009 7:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Drastic CO2 cuts immediately is impossible so far,until one day when we feel the critical situation of survival. Mac Video Converter

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» RE: Until that day Posted by: sounddy

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The hoaxers are saying doubt is the best policy to keep things as they are
Posted by: Changling on Oct 22, 2009 12:31 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For Coal and oil the carbon had been locked in the earth for over 300 million years till now. Now we burn it putting it into the atmosphere where it wasn't there before. Remember that.

That "Little Ice Age" was caused when too much fresh water melted and shut down the warm ocean current that keeps upper Europe and N. America warmer than it should be. It caused disease, mass death, starvation, wars, civil wars and killed off over a 1/3 of the population. The Inuit adapted, the Vikings did not. Some will, some won't but it will be a death of billions and wars over everything for what is left. This will be a global phenomena Not a good prospect.

Not every place is good for agriculture no matter what the temperature is. Remember soil, rain fall etc in that equation? How about the areas that are still used for agriculture? Ever think about that Mr. Sunshine?

Check out the Permian extinction where CO2 levels and methane shot way up and were involved in the worse extinction event on record. Algae blooms created a toxic environment in the oceans aided in the mass extinction. It is happening now too.

A carbon free or nearly so is the only way out of this. That an controlling our reproduction, consumption rates, recycle our garbage etc. We must become symbiots again with earth and stop being parasites. It is the only way for us.

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The sky is falling!!
Posted by: snotnosedkid on Oct 24, 2009 6:57 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is the biggest crock of poo since the last crock of poo. I'm sure most of you here are too young to remember the last "global crisis" which is why the global crisis hype works so well. It's purposely timed to effect people with little or no memory of prior attempts to scare sheeple into the latest money maker.

For those with no memory of 35 years ago, we were told of this evil killer known as "carbon monoxide" which would bring an end to life as we know it if not put in check. Guess what? We put it in check. Todays cars burn so clean that you could seal yourself in a garage and run through a whole tank of gas and not die from carbon monoxide poisoning.

That global crisis is finished. Time to start a new one! Hey, I've got an idea. Let's demonize carbon dioxide. You know, the stuff all people and animals exhale. The stuff trees crave. That way we can convince all the sheeple to feel guilty about breathing. That's a sure fire method to take their money.
What's next to demonize, water?

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Alternet Comments:

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Carter had the country's oh shit moment in the late 70's
Posted by: pelican beak on Oct 15, 2009 1:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and we've been running away from it ever since.

That's been our national characteristic.

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» Another conservative nutcase Posted by: pelican beak

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Eye of the Beholder
Posted by: Revolutionary (Direct) Democracy on Oct 15, 2009 1:24 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Global crisis is just another revenue stream to the financiers.

They sell guns and then start wars.

They mutate viruses and then sell vaccines.

They make global warming inevitable and then they'll sell us water and food.

FREE AMERICA

REVOLUTIONARY (DIRECT) DEMOCRACY

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» RE: ye of the Beholder Posted by: richholland

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Too late, but not humanity's worst problem
Posted by: ender on Oct 15, 2009 1:25 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm sorry, but even if all CO2 emissions right now - today - dropped to zero, we would still continue warming since we are beyond the critical tipping point. It's simply too late now to concentrate solely on reductions on greenhouse gases. We need to concentrate resources on preparations to survive the challenges of global climate change, as well as continued reductions.

I hate to add something kind of off-topic, but the most immediate danger to humanity is the death of the oceans.

As a species, we seem to be great at being able to ignore the elephant in the room. The oceans are "out of sight, out of mind" but although we can live on a hot Earth, we can't live without healthy oceans.

Think about how long you could live without air conditioning. Now, how long could you go without food? How long without fresh water? How long without oxygen?

We rely on the oceans for all four of those things.

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Addressing climate change is possible and has many great side-effects
Posted by: cplot on Oct 15, 2009 1:52 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While written in terms of the US possibilities and focussed somewhat on Illinois, “2020 Vision: A strategic response to the urgent crisis of climate change” provides a clear way to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions by 2020.

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ProfKen
Posted by: ProfBob on Oct 15, 2009 2:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Warming is here. Coring in the Atlantic and Antarctica and many other measures show it. But it is not our major problem!
According to an article in Science Daily (April 20, 2009), a survey of the faculty at the State University of New York, which has a very strong environmental science department, the planet’s major environmental problem is overpopulation.. Climate change is second. This echoes the theme of the popular free ebook series “And Gulliver Returns” –In Search of Utopia—(http://andgulliverreturns.info) As one professor at SUNY said “With ten million or even a hundred million people on the planet there would be no warming problem.” It is both the technology and the number of people using it that create so many of our planetary problems.
There is no question that China's one child policy has helped the world and the Chinese economy. Whenever a country attempts to reduce its population it can expect a two or three generation period of problems while deaths reduce to equal births. I hope that China will recognize this fact and keep its own population on the path to reduction--which should begin by 2050. China's actual fertility rate is not 1.0 per woman, but 1.8--the same as Norway's. But that
But it is politically more popular for Western nations to attack warming than overpopulation.

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» RE: ProfKen Posted by: richholland
» RE: ProfKen Posted by: jal64
» So what? Posted by: themotie

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The Planet's major problem is a greedy USA
Posted by: Lese Majeste on Oct 15, 2009 3:14 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the planet’s major environmental problem is overpopulation

Wrong. It's an America that has lived the good life by controlling and using the world's resources for decades to support our extravagent lifestyle.

We've been taught to 'Shop till you drop' and boy do we take that advice to heart.

5% of the world's population that uses up over 25% of its resources and in the process, create a mountain of CO2.

We've created a Pentagon monster to do our dirty work while we sit on our fat asses, eating potato chips and watching "Dancing with the Stars."
A Pentagon that is the world's largest consumer of oil, other than nations.
A Pentagon that is an insatiable beast that always seems to find wars in oil-rich areas.

Until we learn how to restrain ourselves and 'Just say NO' to our impulsive ways, the planet will continue to suffer.

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» Overpopulation AND overconsumption Posted by: rational_moderate

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There are bright signs, on the political horizon.
Posted by: Squarehead on Oct 15, 2009 3:56 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's all pretty scary, folks, so we had better get our ass in gear pdq.

Of, course, there are hopeful signs too. E.g., the PRC had a renewables target of (I think) 7% by 2009. They have surpassed that, and have a new target of 15% by 2020. Not quite enough, but the right attitude.

There are bright signs, on the political horizon. E.g. this committment of the leadership of PRC to combatting climate change, and the greater degree of committment shown by Pres. Barack Obama. And there are technical solutions, which are vast in scale, but have the benefit of being carbon negative in the medium and long term.

The primary example I think of is serious addressment of solar energy, in the model suggested by Richard E Smalley, in his paper 'The Terawatt Challenge' (look it up)
http://cohesion.rice.edu/NaturalSciences/Smalley/ emplibrary/120204%20MRS%20Boston.pdf

Forget about the politics expressed, look only at the science.

In USA, you all consume resources at a level of (equivalence) ~ 22 tons of CO2 production per year, per person. Therefore some people are consuming at a level of 100s of tons. We all need to reduce our consumption to 1 - 2 tons per person. And we can, if we embrace renewable energy, systematic quality, and total recycling. Only thing is, we need to have that in place within 10 (?) years.

I think we can do it.

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» Why So Optimistic? Posted by: ChicagoWay
» Don't rely on nuclear Posted by: LightningJoe
» Nonsense Joe Posted by: ChicagoWay

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China's Per Capita versus Total Emissions
Posted by: femtobeam on Oct 15, 2009 4:10 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The German report charts are misleading and so is China's insistence on per capita emissions. The chart groups countries together in 3 groups and does not address the fact that China has gone from number 7 in 1950 to number 1 in CO2 emissions. CO2 is CO2.

The only purpose of attaching a dollar figure to a climate change debate is for Hu Jintau to say that until China's giant population has the same standard of living as the US they will continue to force trade issues at the expense of US jobs to China.

They are the number one polluter and they should not be given any incentives to continue their population trends by making pollution a per capita issue.

Oddly, Secretary Chu, in opposition to Obama, was quoted as saying if he was making the decision, he would put all of DOE money into electric vehicles. This does nothing to benefit the US economy with the exception of auto workers who also have to compete with low wage jobs in China and elsewhere.

It only helps the utility companies who are giant polluters in the US, with coal fired and other industrial pollutants. There is no guarantee that the electrical bill for your car will be any cheaper than the fuel costs were. That is, if people can afford to buy new cars at all.

After the big hoorah for stimulous money, companies were invited to submit proposals to the DOE to produce biofuels. The fine print revealed that in exchange for this money the submitters were required to give up their techology rights. Chu then announced that he was establishing a joint technology transfer to China of these US innovations, which were supposed to create a huge number of "Green Jobs". Van Jones was supposed to oversee this role before he was dismissed.

Now, China has announced huge fields of Jatropha facilities to provide the future of biofuels using much of the US innovation Chu obtained in the DOE proposals. In addition, they just signed a deal with Russia to buy 1.8 Trillion cubic feet of natural gas. The photograph shows clapping and smiling Chinese and downcast Putin and Russians.

Meanwhile, Hillary was in Moscow meeting with lower level representatives while Putin was there.

All of this combined with the "Secret Meetings" about not using the dollar for oil and gas that drew so many responses on the Alternet thread, shows that we have no job future, no biofuels support, no manufacturing support and maybe very high costs of electricity for electric cars and consumer electronic equipment, again manufactured in China.

We will be spending borrowed money from China on goods from China to reduce our CO2 emissions. At the same time we will be destroying our economy while China's economy is improved as the Worlds largest polluters due to the "per capita" rule. For those that cannot afford to buy a new electric car, they will now have to buy biofuels from a subsidized, dumping, low wage earning China instead of Saudi Arabia. That is, unless the manufacturing industry is supported in the US without Gov support.

Chu should be dismissed for this trick on the US biofuels industry along with the big oil companies who control this agenda with the power plants and utility companies, while obtaining huge profits as subcontractors to the DOE.

And how much was passed along to the biofuels out of all the monies available? Just $20,000!

The sad part is, China is buying up and consuming the Worlds resources with the money it has made off of the US consumer. They own the Congo, have invested heavily in Central and South America and even are snapping up what there is of US companies, like Solix in Colorado by Shanghai bank.

http://www.mother space jones.com/politics/2009/09/algae-energy-orgy


http://biofuelsdigest.com

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UK's Daily Mail Takes The Piss Out Of The Global Warming Religious Cult
Posted by: tony_opmoc on Oct 15, 2009 4:41 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It was someone in the BBC a few days ago, now a journalist at the Daily Mail is at it. Both the Mail and the BBC have been virtually 100% behind the cult with their pro Global Warming Propaganda Nonsense. Looks like the Bought and Paid Media Management are losing control of their staff. I wonder if they will get fired for being "off message"

Whatever happened to global warming? How freezing temperatures are starting to shatter climate change theory



By Daily Mail Reporter
Last updated at 7:59 AM on 14th October 2009

In the freezing foothills of Montana, a distinctly bitter blast of revolution hangs in the air.

And while the residents of the icy city of Missoula can stave off the -10C chill with thermals and fires, there may be no easy remedy for the wintry snap's repercussions.

The temperature has shattered a 36-year record. Further into the heartlands of America, the city of Billings registered -12C on Sunday, breaking the 1959 barrier of -5C.

Closer to home, Austria is today seeing its earliest snowfall in history with 30 to 40 centimetres already predicted in the mountains.

Such dramatic falls in temperatures provide superficial evidence for those who doubt that the world is threatened by climate change.

But most pertinent of all, of course, are the growing volume of statistics.

According to the National Climatic Data Centre, Earth's hottest recorded year was 1998.

If you put the same question to NASA, scientists will say it was 1934, followed by 1998. The next three runner-ups are 1921, 2006 and 1931.

Which all blows a rather large hole in the argument that the earth is hurtling towards an inescapable heat death prompted by man's abuse of the environment.

Indeed, some experts believe we should forget global warming and turn our attention to an entirely differently phenomenon - global cooling.

The evidence for both remains inconclusive, which is unlikely to help the legions of world leaders meeting in Copenhagen in December to negotiate a new climate change deal.

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» Gravity is a lie Posted by: Karlh
» Rabid Capitalist Posted by: leafsong1
» I've got a bridge to sell you, tony Posted by: hurricane hugo
» RE: Great comment! Posted by: wagner

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We like to claim evolutionary supremacy
Posted by: PJAW on Oct 15, 2009 5:02 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
but we continue to behave like an invasive species with almost no real self-awareness. Okay, some people don't "believe" in evolution, for them the narrative is "God made us the bestest beast in the jungle", whatever. We've been running around with those foam fingers on, chanting "We're number one!" for awhile now, though not with any real impact on the planetary ecology til the industrial revolution kicked into high gear.

Now, we might be totally screwed. Or not. I've always been of the mindset that the globe is in fact experiencing a warming period, and that we humans (as a byproduct of our activity) are making a contribution to that. Given the dire consequences predicted for runaway warming, my position has been, "Let's at least make adjustments to minimize our contribution and perhaps extend our reign here on Earth. It really wouldn't be all that difficult to transition to a new energy technology if we all put our minds to it. It could even be a fun adventure. And we should stop having so many babies while we're at it, eh?"

Of course I'm not the only, and certainly not the loudest, voice carrying that message. I realize I'm actually quite insignificant, and generally a poor example of progress in that direction, but I make an effort.

Well, maybe none of it means shit anyway, and if it truly does, it's likely too late, things are in motion that we cannot reverse and it's only our egos that want us to believe differently.

But wait! Maybe not. You know that whole Mayan Calendar thing and the 25,800 year cycle the planet goes through (with the rest of the solar system) as it travels around the galaxy, periodically passing through the galactic equator? Yeah, you know what I'm talking about don't you? Well, I've read where the earth actually experiences a period of global cooling right after we've made such a pass (which we're doing right now). Sooo..., who the hell really knows? It's actually possible that our contribution to global warming may in fact simply moderate a coming period of cooling. Just like some of the rightwing nut jobs have been yammering about. (though I doubt they've invested much real thought into it)

Of course other things might happen too as we go through this transition period. The temporary alignment with the galactic equator might have subtle effects on the stability of the planets rotational axis or the rate of tectonic movement and other crustal stability. We don't have a written history of what happens every 25,800 years. As a species, we have apparently lived through quite a few, but we don't really know what level of technological development we've achieved in the past. Presumably, where we are now is about as far as we've ever come. At least you would expect there would be SOME evidence if we had gotten this far before, but I don't recall anyone ever finding any and talking about it. Who knows, subtle, global changes could have tremendous impact on what we've established here as "human civilization".

Anyway, it seems that we're once again cresting the first hill on the global roller coaster, keep your arms inside the car and try not to throw up or wet your pants.

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emissions per capita is foolish
Posted by: drosera on Oct 15, 2009 5:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The atmosphere doesn't care if greenhouse gases come from China or the United States. It doesn't care how many people live within mythical national borders. The only thing that matters is how much of the stuff is generated. I would like to see a tax levied on the carbon dioxide emitting infrastructure of every country. You build a coal burner in China, you pay. You build one in the US, you pay. The money, of course, would go to developing countries which cannot afford up-to-date technology.

That said, this new report does nothing to make me want to change my life habits because the bar is set impossibly high. "Eat, drink, and be merry" I say. The population crash to come will solve the problem. Of course, it may take a while for the planet to recover from its infection

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The real no sh*t moment arrives when ...
Posted by: peppylapew on Oct 15, 2009 6:08 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... people wake up to the fact that they've been conned on "climate change."

An article in Science recently "settled the question" regarding the ice-age cycle: it's caused by tiny changes in incident solar heating, themselves the result of the planet's axial wobble. Not CO2. And guess what? The latest warming trend --- a 19,000-year phase --- is ending. The next stage is global cooling.

article here

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» That's what I've always said Posted by: tommy_slothrop
» It is so nice to see... Posted by: wagner

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WE COULD DO IT IF...
Posted by: bryangalt on Oct 15, 2009 6:56 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the emergency of WW2, the US government was persuaded to start the Manhattan project out of fears that Germany and Japan would build the atomic bomb and use it on us unless we built one first.

The bomb came from theory and made it into a deliverable weapon in just four years. An example of the monumental effort would be the construction of Oak Ridge Tennessee, which was built from scratch by thousands of workers. When they were done, tens of thousands more moved into the newly constructed city to service the uranium collection facility, a facility so large it used 30% of all the electricity in the country.

Now, if we applied this emergency model and mentality to global warming, and to moving our country to non-carbon energy sources, we would be the undisputed leaders in the cause, but also in a much better position to help save our species from serious hard times. We also would be saving tens of thousands of other species too, which are seriously under represented at the climate talks.

Frankly, personally, I think we are too lazy, and that the corporations are too greedy for us to do what is needed to save ourselves. The fact are in and if we were truly interested in changing enough to save humanity, we would have. That's a shame.

Bryan Galt's Blog

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Gore wins a Nobel prize for climate change, but he's not a climatologist, meteorologist, nor
Posted by: JohnTruth2001 on Oct 15, 2009 7:01 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
any sort of scientist!? Obama wins a Nobel prize as a peacemaker, but he's caused no peace to occur!?

Does carbon dioxide really cause climate change??? I own a large bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you!!!

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Flawed assumption
Posted by: daw13 on Oct 15, 2009 7:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"There is a fundamental political assumption underlying the WBGU study: that the right to emit greenhouse gases is shared equally by all people on earth."

The fundamental assumption of world oligarchs is quite the opposite. This article indicates quite vividly to me that the sort of scenario described by George Orwell in 1984 may be far more likely to emerge than one in which powers-that-be attempt to insure that all citizens of Earth survive the challenges ahead. What shapes up is a war of haves against have-nots, on a global scale. The article, book, film still hiding in the shadows explores not only issues of decency, ethics, morality in this context, but the feasibility of it. Can haves any longer feasibly expect havenots conveniently to disappear? Can haves any longer easily dispense with them if they do not? Or do we now truly inhabit a global community where the fate of some is the fate of all?

Sadly, this question must finally be exposed and dealt with. I have no doubt of the result of the dialogues it may engender. Global class warfare can only result in universal chaos. But until this is clear, our citizens, and those of other well established oligarchies, will only hold their noses and deplore the efforts of their leaders to massacre billions.

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A SURPRISING POSSIBLE SOLUTION!
Posted by: MarkGoldes on Oct 15, 2009 7:40 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let the love affair with vehicles lead to rapid reduction in the need for fossil fuels! See the article: 5 Steps to Revive the Auto Industry and the Economy on the Aesop Institute website: http://www.aesopinstitute.org

The two pages outline little known breakthrough technology that opens paths to cars that need no fossil fuel or recharge.

Later, more advanced versions can turn cars into power plants, wirelessly able to sell power to the local utility when parked.

Imagine the impact of cars and trucks that emit no pollution and can pay for themselves, as well as end the need to build coal or nuclear power plants!

Visualize electric cars that need no recharge! Also, hybrids with engines that need only one gallon of water as fuel every 1,000 miles. As impossible as it sounds, these technologies are now on the horizon.

Rowan University recently published results of experiments that can only be explained by a new source of energy. Other laboratories can readily reproduce them. Skeptical scientists should see that these experiments are reproduced rapidly, so that they may form their own conclusions.

The experiments indicate that one barrel of water can equal 200 barrels of oil!

These revolutionary technologies hold promise of generating millions of green jobs!

They will change much of what is believed about energy and help reverse some of the trends that threaten catastrophe.

The job now is to accelerate the process!

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» Repeal the laws of thermodynamics!!! Posted by: tommy_slothrop

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The myth of global warming
Posted by: solrev on Oct 15, 2009 7:43 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The myth is that scientists have a clue, but they do not and they know it. They create fantastic models based on data collected, and then they extrapolate to guess at what is going to happen. All these models make a similar assumption, if every thing remains constant other than the data I am using in my model here is what will happen. Scientists know that extrapolation is a dangerous game and nothing more than a best guess based on some set of data. Will green house gases trap solar energy, of course, you learned that in grade school when you studied Venus, but you probably forgot. My best guess without any scientific data is that half the people on this planet are going to die. This is not based on scientific data but human behavior. As long as the decisions being made are primarily based on economics, we will do nothing until we start dropping like flies. We in all likelihood will end up with pockets of Paleolithic survivors. All our grand knowledge will be stored away for another day. Hopefully the survivors will remember how to recall the knowledge when they could put it to better use than we did. Global warming is just the sound of the first trumpet, we had better be able to use the knowledge before we half to dance to the music of the other three. They are a lot tougher than global warming. Hell, grab the gusto while you can, extinction is the natural order based on any scientific model. Maybe we mystics will be among the survivors and there is nothing natural about us, we would just dwell in the garden by the sweat of our brow, the tree of knowledge served its purpose.

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What does that mean
Posted by: Archie1954 on Oct 15, 2009 8:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
for me? Do I have to get rid of my four cars, only one of which is an SUV? Does that mean no more quiet evenings by the roaring fireplace? How about no more roast beef dinners? Will my meat consumption have to be drastically curtailed? What about all of our imported fruits and vegetables from overseas, does that mean back to cabbage slaw during the winters like 50 years ago? What about my plans for worldwide travel when I retire? Now will I have to sit on a rocking chair on my front porch instead of learning the Samba in Rio? I think we are all going to die!

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» Pretty much Posted by: tommy_slothrop

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Mark, you're full of 'shift'...
Posted by: Prinzowhales on Oct 15, 2009 9:18 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
CO2 levels have been much higher in the past and things were just fine...in fact, civilization flourished. The whole 'Gore-baloney' over warming is to justify a carbon tax on the people.

The oceans are screwed up because we are dumping garbage in them...mercury from coal fired electric plants, etc. which has provided us with dangerous levels of that deadly heavy metal in oceans and marine life. Yet, the response of the Oil-igarchy is NOT to move into a rapid mass production of alternatives such as solar panels etc., it has been to give tax credits to buy gas guzzlers...dumb-ass stunts to give billions in subsidies to auto companies through the backdoor with the clunker trade-in farce...and, of course, to give trillions to the banks who ultimately control the oil companies--Rockefeller is to oil what he is to banking, etc....and what did we get for our trillions?--the opportunity to pay interest on new debt.

Obama and McCain are on the same team--Team International Banker--and behind them are lined up the dumb animals who vote mainstream Republican and Democrat...and those who write swill for THE NATION.

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» Guess again Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Its not a guess Posted by: Prinzowhales

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Good article & great comments, but, let's face it, folks
Posted by: willymack on Oct 15, 2009 9:28 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We've ALREADY blown it. Big time.
The only question remaining is how horrible the coming disaster will be.
Will we somehow survive our maniflod follies, only to begin the whole process anew, emerge as a wiser, more humble species, or eke out a grim existence, using Soylent Green to sustain us?
We, with the big brains loudly proclaiming our "superiority" over lifeforms which have susvived natural catastrophes for tens of millions of years are on the cusp of mass suicide, and will most likely take some of the most noble creatures ever to grace this beautiful, tragic world with us.

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Heh. Heh, heh. A Little Schadenfreude Anyone?
Posted by: Cherenkovrad on Oct 15, 2009 9:34 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a resolute adherent to the idea that we would be better off to abandon the entire industrial "civilization" thing immediately, I can only laugh at the people who are still trying to find that magical techno-bullet that will let the planet destroyers continue business as usual.

At one time in my life, I had considered becoming one of the monkey-wrenchers, had thought I could help slow if not stop the suicidal fools raping the planet. I know better now in the sense that the earth cares not whether humanity is here or not. No matter how much damage we do, the earth will keep rolling round and round, completely oblivious to its passengers, dead or alive.

I realized also that in the next few years, as the ramifications of our reckless plunder and destruction become manifest, people will begin to die. Not the normal trickle of additional people who may or may not be the victim of global climate change, but an accelerating deluge of death. And, it will not be limited to the third world. No, that far away buffer zone where our mistakes go to roost and kill, will not perform its job as a bullet stopper for our folly. No. We will starve and riot and die of thirst just like the third world. We will have turned out to be human, fallible, and certainly not exceptional.

Thank the invisible sky being of your choice that I am old. I will die within twenty years one way or another. I feel for the young, for my children, who will suffer extraordinary privation, unknown terrors, and a dying civilization.

But mostly I harbor a bit of Schadenfreude, a bit of glee at the fate of humanity, a species that refuses to listen to reason, facts, or anything that asks them to let go of the banana. Greedy monkey, holding onto the banana in the staked down jar, seeing the hunter coming for him, his heart pounding, fear coursing through his veins, knowing what he should do but not doing it lest he be forced to give up the banana he has in his hand. IT'S IN MY HAND!!! The monkey thinks. Look at it with all its technical perfection, its promise of ease and luxury. Isn't it better to hang onto this bit of luxury for as long as possible and maybe, just maybe escape the hunter?

Small sigh and a chuckle. No. The monkey is killed. And so will we be killed by our small-minded insistence on keeping that damned banana in the face of certain destruction.

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» Right There With Ya ... Posted by: iolanthe

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We Could Have Been Symbionts ...
Posted by: iolanthe on Oct 15, 2009 10:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We could have been symbionts, not just parasites.

We could have spent this century ensuring a basic comfortable standard of living for every human on earth, thanks to family planning technology (even *apart* from abortion).

We could have learned to work *with* nature, not against it.

But no. It was more important to let *some* people stash away billions and billions of dollars of other peoples' money. Anything else would have been *COMMUNISM*.

Seems the "Freedom" we're so sworn to uphold involves the freedom to waste, to spoil, to trash this beautiful place.

Sigh.

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Well, that's Obama:
Posted by: oregoncharles on Oct 15, 2009 12:52 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Great speech, no action.

"Oh, Shit!" Just heard another scary presentation on climate change, last night.

So where's the desperate, drastic action we so desperately need?

Well, Congress is working, oh-so-slowly, on a severely compromised version of cap-and-trade - which is mostly a chance for Gov't Sachs to make another huge killing in yet another new "market" - the "trade" it refers to.

The notion that Goldman Sachs is pulling the strings of our entire political system becomes more plausible all the time.

What isn't plausible is this cap-and-trade bill as a way to end our carbon emissions. Not happening.

So is ANYTHING happening, besides pretty speeches?

Oh, yeah: they're working up a huge bailout for the health-insurance industry, at our expense. I'm so relieved.

If you want Change (without quote marks), you'll have to try something new, like voting for a party that actually believes in it:

www.gp.org

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» RE: False naivete: Posted by: oregoncharles

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Support a strong climate bill
Posted by: greenferret on Oct 15, 2009 1:13 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The climate targets currently proposed by Washington are unbearably weak - far behind what the IPCC says would give us a 50:50 chance of avoiding disaster.

Tell President Obama and your senators to support a 40% emissions reduction by 2020 to avert crisis

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are you fucken kidding.. its col' outside!!...
Posted by: Annapurna1 on Oct 15, 2009 2:08 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
its fucken SNOWING in innsmouth..before weave even started raking the fucken leaves!!...the global warming ppl have it all backwards ..the world is getting alot colder..not warmer...now is not the time to stop greenhouse emissions.. but rather to determine how much greenhouse emissions are necessary to stop another ice age while not making it too hot...

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» RE: Unforgivable ignorance. Posted by: oregoncharles

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Not a chance!
Posted by: dayahka on Oct 15, 2009 7:07 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's assume that it has been demonstrated conclusively that CO2 is the cause and not simply a concomitant of climate change.

Now, what do we do? Adapt or mitigate? Adapt by moving underground, growing food underground, moving higher up into the mountains, abandoning coastal or low-lying cities? Mitigate by trying to cut off completely the carbon-based civilization? Which one? And will be do whatever is selected?

Nah! There's not a chance of a snowflake in Death Valley that we'll do anything in time. Catastrophe will come, many will die, then from the ashes humans may try to keep going on a much lower level. So long as the corporations are in charge and governments are owned by the moneyed class, so long will we do nothing substantive.

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Another possibility...
Posted by: jparsons on Oct 15, 2009 7:16 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...but unpopular with the nonprogressives here.

Animals and methane

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global warming?... dunno about you guys BUT...
Posted by: Bearzerker on Oct 15, 2009 9:17 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...spring was way late for the town where i live...
and winter, I've already got snow outside my yard and have had it for over a week now...
same as last year...
Dr. Ivan Seminak said it best when he mentioned on the Discovery Channel, that if global warming was a man made catastrophy in the making then why are the other global bodies in our solar system loosing their polar caps in much the same way we are?

personally i think C02 emmissions are a global concern for sure,
but the cause and effects need a real look as i believe the real reason for C02 spikes are;
1.)global deforestation
2.)global population explosion
3.)global desertifcation
4.)global water needs
4.)global ocean overfishing
the list can go on but if you want to curb C02 emmisions... lets get behind global plans to plant trees and shore up dwindling fresh water supplies, and regulations to the global fishing fleet

the free ticket we/mankind has enjoyed for the past millenium[s]is over... get used to it!!!
we need real people to come up with real plans now... quack scientists and fear-mongers need not apply!

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global warming?... dunno about you guys BUT...
Posted by: Bearzerker on Oct 15, 2009 9:17 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...spring was way late for the town where i live...
and winter, I've already got snow outside my yard and have had it for over a week now...
same as last year...
Dr. Ivan Seminak said it best when he mentioned on the Discovery Channel, that if global warming was a man made catastrophy in the making then why are the other global bodies in our solar system loosing their polar caps in much the same way we are?

personally i think C02 emmissions are a global concern for sure,
but the cause and effects need a real look as i believe the real reason for C02 spikes are;
1.)global deforestation
2.)global population explosion
3.)global desertifcation
4.)global water needs
4.)global ocean overfishing
the list can go on but if you want to curb C02 emmisions... lets get behind global plans to plant trees and shore up dwindling fresh water supplies, and regulations to the global fishing fleet

the free ticket we/mankind has enjoyed for the past millenium[s]is over... get used to it!!!
we need real people to come up with real plans now... quack scientists and fear-mongers need not apply!

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Unadulterated hoax, nothing more, nothing less
Posted by: wagner on Oct 15, 2009 9:19 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At the beginning of the history of Earth ALL carbon currently trapped in the fossil deposits was present in what eventually became the biosphere. Nevertheless, there is no evidence in the fossil records suggesting, that CO2 at any time has been associated with any negative consequences to life on our planet. On the contrary, the more carbon was available, the more vigorous the biota was. Even during the relatively recent human history, the last "global warming" benefitted not only the Viking settlements on Greenland, but the entire population on record. The "little ice age" following that global warming not only wiped out the Viking settlements, but also spelled misery all over Europe. So, let's enjoy global warming to the fullest and take advantage of its consequences, that include expansion into vast areas in Canada and Siberia currently too cold for agriculture, industry and business. CO2 is essential for life on Earth; without it life would not be possible the way we know it.

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» A planet unfit for mammals Posted by: leafsong1

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$olution for Climate Change Issue?
Posted by: RICHARD RALPH ROEHL on Oct 15, 2009 9:41 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
According to Mr. Oxycontin and other right-$winging propagandists on Amerikan talk hate radio (a.k.a.: "the liberal [sic] media"), the only real solution for climate change issues is tax cuts for the rich... especially Wall $treet banksters. And according to them, the same holds true for health care reform: tax cuts for insurance conglomerates.

Where there is no insight, the people perish. Thus... we predict that corp-rat fascist Amerika will not exist in 30-40 earth years.

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More like an "OH Bull s$$$ moment". Here is
Posted by: SamFox on Oct 16, 2009 12:34 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the real "Oh S###" moment-

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog.php?view=26474

SamFox

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At one time in my life
Posted by: fredtowson on Oct 16, 2009 10:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At one time in my life, I had considered becoming one of the monkey-wrenchers, had thought I could help slow if not stop the suicidal fools raping the planet. I know better now in the sense that the earth cares not whether humanity is here or not. No matter how much damage we do, the earth will keep rolling round and round, completely oblivious to its passengers, dead or alive.

I realized also that in the next few years, as the ramifications of our reckless plunder and destruction become manifest, people will begin to die. Not the normal trickle of additional people who may or may not be the victim of global climate change, but an accelerating deluge of death. And, it will not be limited to the third world. No, that far away buffer zone where our mistakes go to roost and kill, will not perform its job as a bullet stopper for our folly. No. We will starve and riot and die of thirst just like the third world. We will have turned out to be human, fallible, and certainly not exceptional.

Thank the invisible sky being of your choice that I am old. I will die within twenty years one way or another. I feel for инструкции к мобильным телефонам шрифты для word шрифты дизайнерам постеры к сериалам постеры seropol5 the young, for my children, who will suffer extraordinary privation, unknown terrors, and a dying civilization.

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SOLID GOLD pollution bonanaza or dystopic watershed
Posted by: wolvedrive on Oct 16, 2009 2:10 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't know weather to pray or vote,on one hand tyme moves on and on the other,evolution(R),may be naturally occurred, artifically induced,antagonistically escalated,instagated,provoked,stressed even destabalized to get the desired result,aka effect,aftermath,solution or stabalized state of equalibrium(inert nuetrallazation-aka physical pascification)OO,prey for yer own dears, vote for a career stranger,that trusts' thair own back ** ALL CHARACTERAZATIONS IMPLIED have no resemblence to the AF-PAK scenerio and are "purely co-incidental OO

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I actually never had one of those moments,
Posted by: LightningJoe on Oct 16, 2009 4:54 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...Because I realized the meat of the idea so long ago that, unfamiliar with the massive capitalist inertia in our society, and our deep reluctance to face change, I naively assumed that, like feminism (I also thought), this new information would transform our way of looking at how we operate in the world, what the planetary consequences of our actions really were. I thought the scientific consensus would carry the weight it has earned with the public, we who for-a-purpose fund those endeavors to discover the patterns our world goes through.

What I never counted on was how deeply the fear of change affects what people do; and how deeply afraid of the very concept of climate change, we as a nation are. I've spent the years since that realization in and out of depression on this score, because the refusal to recognize a problem's existence is a more or less permanent block to solving that problem. Until we collectively acknowledge that climate change is real, that we are responsible, and that change can (can it still?) happen, we are powerless to do anything to call off the major changes in our lives that are coming. And the longer we put off those changes, the harder it will be to change, and the less we can expect from the exercise -- both for us and for what remains of "nature" on our planet.

We've set ourselves up as the caretakers of the planet, and through this too-long courtship with disaster, we finally can see that we are no such thing, for all our self-assured, self-complementing press on the subject. The world is dying on our watch. The nature of the threat means that we can't see the problem even at this point unless we trust science and scientists to find out the truth for us. The nature of the threat also promises decades if not centuries of later leasure in which to reflect on our current sins.

One ironically mixed blessing: people don't live forever. If they did, there would be no end to the climate denial -- because neither does it appear that all of us can change our minds about what we believe, when presented with the clear evidence that a change is in order. I have older relatives who will go to their graves denying AGCC (Anthropogenic Global Climate Change).

But the positive aspect of that -- at least in terms of AGCC response, is that at least they and their Reich-Wing opinions WILL die, leaving behind those of us who are capable of knowing better. Even if that knowledge will be used too late in the game to save most of our planet's species, we still have a prayer of limiting damages if we act SOON.

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PURE BALONEY
Posted by: reelman on Oct 19, 2009 3:40 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I taught college science 27 years and have a PhD...the earth has not warmed since 1998 and any text will tell you this planet will freeze as nuclear reactions reduce the size of the sun to heat us...its that matter to energy thing.

This is why Gore refuses debate...why should ANY alarmist refuse debate?

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» RE: PURE BALONEY Posted by: Squarehead

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Jarhead
Posted by: Jarhead on Oct 20, 2009 2:01 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The study makes no sense. China now leads the world in greenhouse gas emissions, and is ever increasing its emissions through the building of dozens of coal fired power plants per year and other industry and transportation. But China doesn't have to go to zero until 2035. U.S. is slowly reducing its GHG emissions, and is even now emitting less GHG than China, but must U.S. must reduce all emissions by 2020.

The study is clearly erroneous. If the goal is to reduce GW by reducing GHG, then reducing emissions in China should be top priority.

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Another Unworkable "Oh Shit" Eco Study - Same Old Same Old
Posted by: ChicagoWay on Oct 20, 2009 4:58 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It makes one want to scream. I have been seeing this same tired BS from eco warriors and 'social reformers' (read Marxist) for years.

The truth is MANY enviro-activist do not give a rat's ass about really solving the problem of GH gases. Many of them only use "climate change" as a phony argument to totally re-make society or are nothing but radical anti-capitalist. Their draconian social goals and sentiments are far more important to many of them.

I've said it before and will say it again. *IF* the far left and eco warriors were really serious about dramatically reducing CO2 and other GH gases one would see MASSIVE protests in FAVOR of expanding nuclear power, which really could go a long way in solving the actual problem.

Instead the far left - especially groups like Green Peace - have been responsible for vigorous protest to shut down the nuclear industry, while at the same time we see the same lame and unworkable solutions offered over and over again for at least 20 years... meaning "solar and wind" ...and which still only represent about 1% of total US electricity generation.

Worse, these zealous social reforners are now trying to sell hugely complicated 'share-the-pain' and world-wide quota schemes - like Cap & Trade or Kyoto-like fantasies - where the US and others take the brunt of the economic pain, while China and others see very little responsiblity in comparison.

Many of these so-called solutions are NOT based on science or current economic reality, but rather RAW emotion and wishful thinking by very zealous and unrealistic social reformers wanting to totally re-make societies or get rid of 'evil capitalism.'

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» No It Can NOT (unforunately) Posted by: ChicagoWay

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Until that day
Posted by: donotworry on Oct 21, 2009 7:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Drastic CO2 cuts immediately is impossible so far,until one day when we feel the critical situation of survival. Mac Video Converter

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» RE: Until that day Posted by: sounddy

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The hoaxers are saying doubt is the best policy to keep things as they are
Posted by: Changling on Oct 22, 2009 12:31 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For Coal and oil the carbon had been locked in the earth for over 300 million years till now. Now we burn it putting it into the atmosphere where it wasn't there before. Remember that.

That "Little Ice Age" was caused when too much fresh water melted and shut down the warm ocean current that keeps upper Europe and N. America warmer than it should be. It caused disease, mass death, starvation, wars, civil wars and killed off over a 1/3 of the population. The Inuit adapted, the Vikings did not. Some will, some won't but it will be a death of billions and wars over everything for what is left. This will be a global phenomena Not a good prospect.

Not every place is good for agriculture no matter what the temperature is. Remember soil, rain fall etc in that equation? How about the areas that are still used for agriculture? Ever think about that Mr. Sunshine?

Check out the Permian extinction where CO2 levels and methane shot way up and were involved in the worse extinction event on record. Algae blooms created a toxic environment in the oceans aided in the mass extinction. It is happening now too.

A carbon free or nearly so is the only way out of this. That an controlling our reproduction, consumption rates, recycle our garbage etc. We must become symbiots again with earth and stop being parasites. It is the only way for us.

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The sky is falling!!
Posted by: snotnosedkid on Oct 24, 2009 6:57 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is the biggest crock of poo since the last crock of poo. I'm sure most of you here are too young to remember the last "global crisis" which is why the global crisis hype works so well. It's purposely timed to effect people with little or no memory of prior attempts to scare sheeple into the latest money maker.

For those with no memory of 35 years ago, we were told of this evil killer known as "carbon monoxide" which would bring an end to life as we know it if not put in check. Guess what? We put it in check. Todays cars burn so clean that you could seal yourself in a garage and run through a whole tank of gas and not die from carbon monoxide poisoning.

That global crisis is finished. Time to start a new one! Hey, I've got an idea. Let's demonize carbon dioxide. You know, the stuff all people and animals exhale. The stuff trees crave. That way we can convince all the sheeple to feel guilty about breathing. That's a sure fire method to take their money.
What's next to demonize, water?

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