COMMENTS: 95
Eating Meat Isn't Bad for the Planet, It's Our System of Raising the Animals That's Wrong
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I am dismayed that so many people have been so easily fooled on the meat eating and climate change issue following the UN report ["Livestock's Long Shadow"]. The culprit is not meat eating but rather the excesses of corporate/industrial agriculture. The UN report shows either great ignorance or possibly the influence of the fossil fuel lobby with the intent of confusing the public. It is obviously to someone’s benefit to make meat eating and livestock raising an easily attacked straw man (with the enthusiastic help of vegetarian groups) in order to cover up the singular contribution of the only new sources of carbon -- burning the stored carbon in fossil fuels and to a small extent making cement (both of which release carbon from long term storage) -- as the reason for increased greenhouse gasses in the modern era. (Just for ridiculous comparison, human beings, each exhaling about 1kg of CO2 per day, are responsible for 33% more CO2 per year than fossil fuel transportation. Maybe we should get rid of us.)
If I butcher a steer for my food, and that steer has been raised on grass on my farm, I am not responsible for any increased CO2. The pasture-raised animal eating grass in my field is not producing CO2, merely recycling it (short term carbon cycle) as grazing animals (and human beings) have since they evolved. It is not meat eating that is responsible for increased greenhouse gasses; it is the corn/ soybean/ chemical fertilizer/ feedlot/ transportation system under which industrial animals are raised. When I think about the challenge of feeding northern New England, where I live, from our own resources, I cannot imagine being able to do that successfully without ruminant livestock able to convert the pasture grasses into food. It would not be either easy or wise to grow arable crops on the stony and/or hilly land that has served us for so long as productive pasture. By comparison with my grass fed steer, the soybeans cultivated for a vegetarian’s dinner, if done with motorized equipment, are responsible for increased CO2.
But, what about the methane in all that cattle flatulence? Excess flatulence is also a function of an unnatural diet. If cattle flatulence on a natural grazing diet were a problem, heat would have been trapped a 1000 years ago when, for example, there were 70 million buffalo in North America not to mention innumerable deer, antelope, moose, elk, caribou, and so on all eating vegetation and in turn being eaten by native Americans, wolves, mountain lions, etc. Did the methane from their digestion and the nitrous oxide from their manure cause temperatures to rise then? Or could there be other contributing factors today resulting from industrial agriculture, factors that change natural processes, which are not being taken into account? It has long been known that when grasslands are chemically fertilized their productivity is increased but their plant diversity is diminished. A recent study in the journal Rangelands (Vol. 31, #1, pp. 45 - 49) documents how that the diminished diversity from sowing only two or three grasses and legumes in modern pastures results in diminished availability of numerous secondary nutritional compounds, for example tannins from the minor pasture forbs, which are known to greatly reduce methane emissions. Could not the artificial fertilization of pastures greatly increase the NO2 from manure? Might not the increased phosphorus, nowhere near as abundant in natural systems, have modified digestibility? I am sure that future research will document other contributing factors of industrial agricultural practices on animal emissions. The fact is clear. It is not the livestock; it is the way they are raised. But what about clearing the Brazilian rain forest? Well, the bulk of that is for soybeans and if we stopped feeding grain to cattle much of the acreage presently growing grain in the Midwest could become pasture again and we wouldn’t need Brazilian land. (US livestock presently consume 5 times as much grain as the US population does directly.) And long term pasture, like the Great Plains once was, stores an enormous amount of carbon in the soil.
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Posted by: jparsons on Aug 13, 2009 12:25 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
because you don't understand the full range of
motivations:
The vast majority of meat production is not done
in the way you describe, and is showing no signs of
getting closer.
The other reasons for avoiding meat are just as
compelling for me: Health and compassion.
So I prefer to opt out entirely.
I also see no evidence that anyone else is really fooled
-most people are ignoring or denying the analyses and
the rest understand quite well the differences
between superfarming and small farming (animal or crop).
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» How many animals and birds died when they harvested your grains?
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: How many animals and birds died when they harvested your grains?
Posted by: LawsAgainstLaughing
» It's the population and mode of production
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: It's the population and mode of production
Posted by: LawsAgainstLaughing
» What do you care about animals and birds ???
Posted by: TomOfMaine
» RE: As a vegan, I certainly haven't been fooled. me, either. Those danged compassionless Amish
Posted by: Beck
» A:RE: YOU 'SENSITIVE' about the thousands of micro-organisms that DIE in your respiratory tract -
Posted by: blurider
» Rationality? I'm afraid you don't qualify, but you could try again with another post?
Posted by: jparsons
» Definitely sensitive, it's obvious since we're vegan
Posted by: TomOfMaine
» RE: As a vegan, I certainly haven't been fooled
Posted by: Jennie
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Posted by: jingles on Aug 13, 2009 12:27 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Capitalism + human carnivores = these vile practices. (There would be no fast food without these vile practices.)
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» RE: duh! (and duh...)AND DUH.
Posted by: Beck
» RE: duh! Did you have a point to make or were you just rambling, working it out thru self -talk?
Posted by: blurider
» Soil, feed crops, land use, etc (part 1)
Posted by: adempatriot
» Soil, feed crops, land use, etc (part 2)
Posted by: adempatriot
» Soil, feed crops, land use, etc (part 3)
Posted by: adempatriot
» Soil, feed crops, land use, etc (part 4)
Posted by: adempatriot
» its up to whom to do the math?
Posted by: jingles
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Aug 13, 2009 12:58 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You can never be sure of the consequences of a particular decision involving high-tech, artificial methods. Thus, the safest bet seems to be staying close to nature and hoping for the best.
One big cultural obstacle is the idea that more fat is better because it makes the meat more juicy. The idea that natural meat is tough and stringy has been etched in our consciousness for a long time. Marinating it and/or stewing it with lots of wine, spices and vegetables, or whatever, will fix that, but Americans seem to like their steak rare, bloody, and full of fat.
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Posted by: lisah on Aug 13, 2009 2:59 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: meat elites
Posted by: PillarKY
» veg elites. We have giant farms of plants as well. Drive around the midwest or central CA lately?
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: aouie01 on Aug 13, 2009 3:15 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Using our collective knowledge in a way that is detrimental to other sentient beings is bad (unless it is a matter of survival).
Betraying the trust of another being is bad.
Needless violence against another being is bad.
Exploiting another being is bad.
Doing to another being that which the being would not want done to self is bad.
Sincerely,
Aouie
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» RE: nvironmentally friendly animal farming can still be bad / wrong (depending on your values)
Posted by: jrgjniew
» Says who?
Posted by: je5752
» RE: Says who?
Posted by: cats.anon
» RE: Says who?
Posted by: Jennie
» RE: I will come back to the Amish and their values again. And I'll add. . .
Posted by: dcande01
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Posted by: Suzon on Aug 13, 2009 3:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I lived in Southern California, back yard orange trees were rich with delicious fruit that went unpicked. How many people do you know who have room to grow food but can't be bothered?
I have a half-size allotment on which I have been harvesting zuchinni, raspberries, strawberries, blackberries, salad veg, etc. More than enough for myself with an excess to share. Kale and purple sprouting broccoli should be available in the winter months. Even if you only have windowsills, you can grow herbs.
Protein? There are 70 houses in my road and I'm the only person with chickens. With four hybrid hens, I have plenty of eggs for myself and still sell or give away about 18 a week. What if 10% of the 70 households raised chickens? Seven households with four hens each could produce something like 8,736 eggs a year or 125 eggs per household.
Utilizing what we have right close to home is possible--IF we have the sense to see the opportunities which already surround us. Here in England, it was not unusual to see sweet corn grown in public parks merely for decoration. Municipal flower beds can be supplemented by equally attractive fruit trees and vegetable gardens.
Right now if I went to my window I could look out at common land where a local veterinarian is grazing a herd of nine beef cattle. The meat will be sold at a butcher's shop a 15 minute walk away.
It's great to see so many people waking from supermarket and agribusiness-induced slumber. Even if being totally self-sustaining is not easily possible, more is possible than we have realized.
We are not helpless and we should not be passive.
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» RE: we do not even begin to use our environment responsibly when we cling to the idea of scarcity
Posted by: jrgjniew
» actually, the UK is much more densely populated than most US states (and the last time I looked
Posted by: Suzon
» And your premise is?
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: we do not even begin to use our environment responsibly when we cling to the idea of scarcity
Posted by: dcande01
» what's so disgusting that a veterinarian or anybody else raises cows on a grassy common
Posted by: Suzon
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Posted by: Farmertim on Aug 13, 2009 3:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The microbes in the rumen of a cow, sheep, bison are the same as the microbes in the soil and as the process of digesting forage more are produced and passed on to the soil to enhance biological life AND create digestable food for the microbes, and other beneficial bacteria.
Take rumenants off soil, normal eats and the resulting transfer we begin to see the degredation of the soil wether Corporate Ag or vegans are the ones doing the removal.
1 lb of healthy balanced soil is estimated to hold trillions of microbs.
The more diverse the forage species of the soil the more varity of the microbial activity and the better rumenants can digest forage and eat satisfactorly on smaller acreages.
Big Ag doesn't tell you that microbes are responsible for up to 75% of a plants uptake of nutrients, they are the ones who give it to the plant in a way that the plant recognizes, commercial fertilizer creates weak acid to mimic the process but will not create a healthy disease weather variable resistant plant..so along comes the tech fees for sprays, GMO's ect. and before long you have large scale hydroponics.
The article is correct, just short on the real animals doing all the work, and rumenants, and humans role in the web we depend on.
For more info go to www.midwesternbioag.com
Farmer Tim
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Posted by: rcase on Aug 13, 2009 3:51 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Another Alternet food article that is simplistic in analysis
Posted by: jrgjniew
» I'll show you force
Posted by: je5752
» RE: Another Alternet food article that is simplistic in analysis
Posted by: progressiveview
» we should spend more money on food.
Posted by: PillarKY
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Posted by: frantaylor on Aug 13, 2009 4:31 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We raise livestock in these conditions because WE HAVE NO CHOICE.
There is simply not enough farmland available for us to continue down our current path.
We need to figure out how to feed more people on the land that we have.
The best way to do that is to grow food and eat it ourselves, not to grow food, feed it to animals, and then eat the animals. It is more than abundantly clear that the latter path is just leading us down the road to ruin, no matter how you try to dress it up.
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» RE: Take our population into account
Posted by: jrgjniew
» RE: Take our population into account
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: Take our population into account
Posted by: frantaylor
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Posted by: JenniferBedingfield on Aug 13, 2009 4:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: ProfBob on Aug 13, 2009 5:43 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Your data needs adjusting
Posted by: dkm
» RE: ProfBob 30 acres?????
Posted by: farmguy
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Posted by: LawsAgainstLaughing on Aug 13, 2009 5:51 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So too is 7 billion too many to farm in the way described in the article. While someone might claim that they can just raise a cow in their backyard, it turns out that these animals actually eat A WHOLE LOT of grass and to rangefeed cattle or hogs requires vast swaths of land and can threaten environments, accelerate erosion, attack biodiversity, etc. William Cronon's Changes in the Land is a dated, but still decent, book that describes the impact of hog farming in New England in the seventeenth century, long before factory farming. Concentrated animal feeding operations are cruel, and pollutive, but they are indeed concentrated, which is why they can thrive-- they are the only land-efficient way to raise and kill 7 billion animals a year.
The next problem is cost. Without the cruel efficiency of CAFOs and with the signficantly heightened costs of production, who would be able to afford meat? The answer is the wealthy, and the upper-middle class. The whole "'humane', range-fed meat is good, but normal meat is unethical" translates into, "rich people can eat whatever they want, and the working class has to eat what we tell them."
The worst part of this deplorably ignorant piece however, was the claim that, because a report is critical of meat it must be co-authored by fossil fuel interests, even though a vegetarian or vegan diet uses signifantly less fossil fuel. The delusion that everyone who shares an opinion different from you is part of some grand cabal is the kind of fare I'd expect from crazies like Alex Jones, not the fine folks at Alternet.
Fine question-- how many animals in the US are actually raised according to the author's standards? Considering organic and range-fed certifications are pretty easy to get, and considering most of the eggs and meat that are certified organic actually have a larger carbon footprint than non-organic meats (source: http://www.audubonmagazine.org/features0901/viewpoint.html), I'm dumfounded that some environmentalists still are content not only to reject vegetarianism or veganism, but to openly castigate it.
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» RE: litism, Delusion, and Strawmen, oh my!
Posted by: progressiveview
» RE: litism, Delusion, and Strawmen, oh my!
Posted by: progressiveview
» RE: litism, Delusion, and Strawmen, oh my!
Posted by: LawsAgainstLaughing
» RE: litism, Delusion, and Strawmen, oh my!
Posted by: wrinklemomma
» Another numerically challenged individual
Posted by: dkm
» RE: Another numerically challenged individual
Posted by: LawsAgainstLaughing
» RE: Another numerically challenged individual
Posted by: Rinalia
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Posted by: bobconway on Aug 13, 2009 6:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That is NOT a "ridiculous comparison." There are indeed TOO MANY PEOPLE on this planet.
In addition to exhaling a kilogram of C02 everyday we burn carbon and/or buy and use products for which carbon was burned in the manufacture, packaging, and/or transportation thereof; and we make many other demands on the planet's finite resources for many decades each.
The only ethical way to reduce the human population is for each of us to curtail our own reproduction. If you decide to produce a child, please be aware that you'll be adding an additional kilogram of CO2 to the atmosphere for every day that the new person lives. You'll be creating another consumer.
Not everyone can raise and slaughter his/her own grass-fed cattle; and even for those who can, grass will only get you through the growing season, which isn't all year round in New England. You've still got to expend some energy to produce hay for the winter. Are you really going to go out there and mow all your hay by hand and haul it to the barn without using a tractor? If you can do that, fine, raise and eat all the meat you think you'll need. Otherwise please consider eating less meat and more vegetables.
I agree, BTW, with Coleman's use of cattle to graze in areas where there's not sufficient arable soil to grow vegetable food crops. But for every acre of stony pasture land in New England there must be at least 20 acres of arable crop land in the Great Lakes, Great Plains, and other regions of the U.S. where it would make more sense to grow food crops than to raise meat. You can drive almost all the way across Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, and Nebraska -- that's about 1,000 miles or so -- and never be, except when you're driving through a town, where you can't look around and see either a corn, wheat, oats, hay or soybean field.
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» Peak oil will fix the overpopulation problem
Posted by: souffrantfleur
» RE: Peak oil will fix the overpopulation problem
Posted by: bobconway
» RE: Peak oil will fix the overpopulation problem
Posted by: souffrantfleur
» RE: bob, I have TWO WORDS for you - INCREMENTAL CHANGE.
Posted by: blurider
» Human breathing does NOT contribute to global warming
Posted by: yehadut
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Posted by: cdlepthien on Aug 13, 2009 6:30 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think we need to differentiate between prime, non-irrigated farmland and areas which naturally had a large ruminant grazing ecology. Grow crops on one & large ruminants on the other. Bison, while harder to handle than cows, are much more efficient in turning grass to meat and need alot less hay in the winter. It would be nice to make this transition before the Ogallala aquifer runs dry.
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Posted by: Bayardtom on Aug 13, 2009 7:06 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But the point is that the methods used to do this are horrendous.
You should read John Robbin's book - Diet for a New America. He talks about going to a slaughterhouse and seeing first hand the brutality in that profession. If everybody had to see that , the whole world would be vegetarian.
That is a big reason why I aspire to be a vegan all the time.It is for the animals. We had a pig when I was a child. He was a loving sentient creature and my sister and I loved him very much. This was the beginning of my veganism. He would run to meet us after school and nuzzle up to us , making soft sounds of pleasure when we petted him. We were horrified when our parents had him butchered.
Try veganism for a while. Meat and dairy are the cause of most of the serious diseases like heart failure, diabetes and stroke. We are still learning about the effect on our whole system from bad diet. Most of our problems come directly from what we eat. Society just refuses to learn and change because of greed, but, of course, that is the problem with our whole world. Case in point - the raging subject of providing the proper health care. If it weren't for the vampire insurance companies and big pharma using the lobbyists to bribe our representatives, we would have had a single payer health care plan ages ago the way the reat of the industrialized nations have done for a long time.
So, it is easy to see that everything in life is relative. The planet and everybody on it suffers because of the greed and insensitivity of people in power. We are the victims of the society we live in unless we educate ourselves and change our environment. Try it, you'll like it.
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» RE: caronome
Posted by: cdlepthien
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Posted by: ffrf.org on Aug 13, 2009 7:47 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
-free range in the pasture all day
-grooming
-play
-antibiotic free, etc.
such a terrible life.
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Posted by: SufiLizard on Aug 13, 2009 8:06 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At least one poster above mentioned the ethical issues in eating animals, and I think those are fair arguments - as someone who raises grass-fed cattle, I can admit that.
If you think it is immoral to kill an animal to eat it, then make that argument. Don't try to turn it into an environmental argument, because, as this author points out so well, that one just doesn't hold water.
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» RE: All Flesh Is Grass
Posted by: jonoruf
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Posted by: ETSpoon on Aug 13, 2009 9:15 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"How Ya Gonna Keep Em Down On the Farm (After They've Seen Paree)"?
You see, that's unspoken the problem with breaking the lock factory farming has on American agriculture, not enough farmers.
Ever since that song was written c. 1919 the United States, and Europe, has seen urban populations grow at the expense of rural areas leading to farms abandonment and consolidation. The sad fact is we in urban and suburban and exurban America would starve without factory farms!
To grow the types of foods to make us healthy will require some form agricultural readjustment and resettlement program on a grand scale. Unemployed city workers will need to be trained, at great expense, to farm. May will fail.
Suburban, white coordinator class college kids, safely tucked in front of their desktops in the dorm room or parent's basement, say they are willing to go back to the land. But once Monsanto or Citi waves the fat paycheck in their pasty faces all thoughts of farm life are banished to the land of childhood fantasies.
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» RE: The great problem
Posted by: Pissed Off Woman
» Haven' been keeping up, have you?
Posted by: dkm
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Posted by: happybear on Aug 13, 2009 9:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line on Aug 13, 2009 10:09 AM
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Posted by: jonoruf on Aug 13, 2009 10:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Also, many organic meat growers do in fact feed grain to their animals, so they are not always solely grass fed, especially when it comes to pork and chickens (which generally is a fair amount).
For cattle, organic growers usually do not feed a lot of grains to the cattle, and it is usually done towards the end of the animals shortened lifespan, but it still requires fossil fuels. Growing meat also requires A LOT of water.
He can argue the greenhouse/global warming stuff, but only so far. Eating meat is unsustainable unless you are doing it like the Indians did.
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» The Green Party of New Zealand analyzed this
Posted by: jparsons
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Posted by: zigy on Aug 13, 2009 10:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As an aside, a good way to conceptualize eating and nutrition is with the Paleolithic diet. For millions of years our ancestors subsisted on primarily fruits and vegetables (probably including tubers like the yam and sweet potato), with a moderate amount of exceedingly lean meat thrown in. ( This meat was nothing like today's corn feed, fat marbled beef which is too high in omega4 fatty acids; cattle would normally eat grass and thus their meat would naturally be higher in the more favorable omega3 fatty acids. Again, as the author alludes to, it is more profitable for agrabusiness to feed cattle the unnatural diet of corn[maize]). The Neolithic revolution (i.e. the beginning of agriculture) commenced all around the world (radiating out from 5, or possibly 6 locations) about 10, 000 years ago. In four of the five centers of crop domestication grain became the staple crop. In Peru the staple crop was the potato and in New Guinea, the possible sixth center of domestication, more reasearch needs to be done. The archeological evidence is unequivocal that people's health declined as a result of a now largely grain based diet. Thus the government food recommendations are rather flawed. A largely grain based diet is not fully healthy for several reasons not the least of which is that the starch in grains wreaks havoc on the otherwise virtually indestructible enamel of our teeth. It is not simple refined sugar that is harmful. There is increasing scientific evidence that the phytochemicals in fruits and vegetables (that is to say the various pigments) have powerful disease fighting properties when made available to the cells as part of the diet.
As a further aside, but pursuant to the emphasis on the Paleolithic, the importance of exercise to optimal health is understated. It is most likely our early human ancestors evolved to engage in aerobic activity from sun-up to sun-down, often jogging or running 20 to 30 miles a day in pursuit of wounded game (It was not until about 50,000 years ago that hunting technology had improved to the point where game could be quickly dispatched rather than merely wounded. Incidently it was this technology that contributed to the extinction of mega-fauna all around the world with the exception of Africa, where large animals had evolved in conjunction with human predition and had thus evolved a healthy fear of the small homonid. The horse was only domesticated four or five thousand years ago and for most of history only the most wealthy of men could afford to own and feed one. The kind of sedentariness that humans have fallen into since the invention (and mass marketing) of the automobile can be seen as an outlandish aberation that has done an enormous amount of harm to our species.
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» RE: Mr Coleman makes several good points...
Posted by: Paleo__Huntress
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Posted by: PillarKY on Aug 13, 2009 11:29 AM
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And yet, he has the mind to make the legitimate point that meat eating does NOT necessarily equal unsustainable.
Elliot Coleman is displaying a much-needed ability to see beyond the differences of philosophies and to push aside any elitism and point us toward a healthy debate about climate change, diet, and sustainability. Awesome article.
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Posted by: beavmo on Aug 13, 2009 12:31 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» ...not that simple...
Posted by: PillarKY
» Poor analysis
Posted by: dkm
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Posted by: topview on Aug 13, 2009 4:11 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They are Genetically Modifying the crops to except poisonous herbicides that are washing into the sea and are causing the death of all living critters and plant life. That is causing huge dead zones. Destroying the marine phytoplankton, that use Co2 and produce oxygen.It is another problem with to much carbon not being consumed by natures way of balance.
That spraying process is destroying the soil for any other use except to keep spraying chemicals on the land to grow GM crops that are not natural and causes sickness in all animals and humans.
Mother nature is seeking revenge on us for screwing with her natural process in keeping a balance in the environment, and that is caused by the Big Ag business for greedy profits without concern for the damage they are causing to the earth and it,s inhabitants.
Their spraying Roundup on the crops and soil is throwing the whole eco system out of balance and destroying everything in its path.
Just how long can this destruction continue before we have a collapse of our environment? When the base of the food chain, Phytoplankton, is destroyed, the rest of life on this planet will follow.
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Posted by: pfm on Aug 13, 2009 4:21 PM
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For me the question is NOT whether one is vegan, or not, or that unless we choose a reality wherein petrochemical fertilizers, pesticides, etc are utilized we can not feed today's population let alone the population expected tomorrow.
I am reminded how it is written the natives with NO foundation were honestly unable to see the arriving ships coming on the horizon until they were virtually anchored in their harbor. It was NOT because they were trying to be contrary, but rather because their perspective was limited. Might this be a condition we are facing today. Because we have no hands on experience with agriculture abiding by a more "holistic" paradigm, does this ipso-facto preclude its validity....? Our individual and/or collective inability to see does not make any contrary condition automatically false or does it.....?
Respectfully submitted
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Posted by: deejayvee on Aug 13, 2009 6:03 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nice to see something other than the usual vegetarian articles here on Alternet.
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Posted by: tokerdesigner on Aug 13, 2009 6:26 PM
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2. Further down zigy discusses the paleolithics (before agriculture, 10000 BC) who got a lot of exercise hunting, and ate a wider variety of fruit than we do today. Our digestive system is not that different. Goodall (Africa) reports that chimpanzees eat about 80% fruit-- and some meat (monkey is their money).
3. Chimpanzees also eat termites which they catch by wetting a stick with saliva, sticking it down a hole in a termite nest, and bringing it up with termites crawling on it. I remember years ago seeing a fly-trap which consisted of a light inside a barred area; the flies trying to get in would touch two bars at once completing a circuit and fry (ssssssst!) right there. We nee only add a system where the execution of a fly triggers a fan inside sucking the carcass down into a freezer compartment; a truck drives around daily to empty out the compartments, and the flesh is made into QUICHE (kitsch), PESTO, GUACAMOLE etc. Who needs beefcattle anymore, we have the technology to eat lower on the food chain.
4. Galdikas (Borneo) reports that orangutans eat 400 species of fruit. Think a moment: how many species of vegetation can you name that you eat? And how many of the species do you know how to open, crush, penetrate to get to the edible part (let alone how to cook with your firestove)? Are we the smartest kind of ape or not?
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» RE: Great Ape Perspective
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
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Posted by: eatplants on Aug 14, 2009 2:00 PM
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Posted by: louissa on Aug 18, 2009 10:56 AM
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Posted by: Cheryl Long on Aug 18, 2009 3:41 PM
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Posted by: TomOfMaine on Aug 18, 2009 5:13 PM
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Posted by: boay on Aug 18, 2009 6:46 PM
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Posted by: howtoboilafrog on Aug 19, 2009 11:20 AM
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The fact is, peak oil and other systemic problems will take down this system, which nobody really believes is sustainable indefinitely, either because the resources necessary to support it will start to be insufficient, or because the environmental consequences of it will drastically reduce human population to the point where we’re back in balance with our sustainable food supply. I just hope we find a more humane and equitable route to that time than just volunteering everyone who can't grow their own grass-fed cow to give up beef, so that the few who CAN, can carry on doing it. And I say that as someone who doesn't eat beef, for all of the reasons listed above.
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Posted by: jparsons on Aug 13, 2009 12:25 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
because you don't understand the full range of
motivations:
The vast majority of meat production is not done
in the way you describe, and is showing no signs of
getting closer.
The other reasons for avoiding meat are just as
compelling for me: Health and compassion.
So I prefer to opt out entirely.
I also see no evidence that anyone else is really fooled
-most people are ignoring or denying the analyses and
the rest understand quite well the differences
between superfarming and small farming (animal or crop).
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» How many animals and birds died when they harvested your grains?
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: How many animals and birds died when they harvested your grains?
Posted by: LawsAgainstLaughing
» It's the population and mode of production
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: It's the population and mode of production
Posted by: LawsAgainstLaughing
» What do you care about animals and birds ???
Posted by: TomOfMaine
» RE: As a vegan, I certainly haven't been fooled. me, either. Those danged compassionless Amish
Posted by: Beck
» A:RE: YOU 'SENSITIVE' about the thousands of micro-organisms that DIE in your respiratory tract -
Posted by: blurider
» Rationality? I'm afraid you don't qualify, but you could try again with another post?
Posted by: jparsons
» Definitely sensitive, it's obvious since we're vegan
Posted by: TomOfMaine
» RE: As a vegan, I certainly haven't been fooled
Posted by: Jennie
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Posted by: jingles on Aug 13, 2009 12:27 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Capitalism + human carnivores = these vile practices. (There would be no fast food without these vile practices.)
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» RE: duh! (and duh...)AND DUH.
Posted by: Beck
» RE: duh! Did you have a point to make or were you just rambling, working it out thru self -talk?
Posted by: blurider
» Soil, feed crops, land use, etc (part 1)
Posted by: adempatriot
» Soil, feed crops, land use, etc (part 2)
Posted by: adempatriot
» Soil, feed crops, land use, etc (part 3)
Posted by: adempatriot
» Soil, feed crops, land use, etc (part 4)
Posted by: adempatriot
» its up to whom to do the math?
Posted by: jingles
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Aug 13, 2009 12:58 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You can never be sure of the consequences of a particular decision involving high-tech, artificial methods. Thus, the safest bet seems to be staying close to nature and hoping for the best.
One big cultural obstacle is the idea that more fat is better because it makes the meat more juicy. The idea that natural meat is tough and stringy has been etched in our consciousness for a long time. Marinating it and/or stewing it with lots of wine, spices and vegetables, or whatever, will fix that, but Americans seem to like their steak rare, bloody, and full of fat.
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Posted by: lisah on Aug 13, 2009 2:59 AM
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» RE: meat elites
Posted by: PillarKY
» veg elites. We have giant farms of plants as well. Drive around the midwest or central CA lately?
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: aouie01 on Aug 13, 2009 3:15 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Using our collective knowledge in a way that is detrimental to other sentient beings is bad (unless it is a matter of survival).
Betraying the trust of another being is bad.
Needless violence against another being is bad.
Exploiting another being is bad.
Doing to another being that which the being would not want done to self is bad.
Sincerely,
Aouie
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» RE: nvironmentally friendly animal farming can still be bad / wrong (depending on your values)
Posted by: jrgjniew
» Says who?
Posted by: je5752
» RE: Says who?
Posted by: cats.anon
» RE: Says who?
Posted by: Jennie
» RE: I will come back to the Amish and their values again. And I'll add. . .
Posted by: dcande01
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Posted by: Suzon on Aug 13, 2009 3:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I lived in Southern California, back yard orange trees were rich with delicious fruit that went unpicked. How many people do you know who have room to grow food but can't be bothered?
I have a half-size allotment on which I have been harvesting zuchinni, raspberries, strawberries, blackberries, salad veg, etc. More than enough for myself with an excess to share. Kale and purple sprouting broccoli should be available in the winter months. Even if you only have windowsills, you can grow herbs.
Protein? There are 70 houses in my road and I'm the only person with chickens. With four hybrid hens, I have plenty of eggs for myself and still sell or give away about 18 a week. What if 10% of the 70 households raised chickens? Seven households with four hens each could produce something like 8,736 eggs a year or 125 eggs per household.
Utilizing what we have right close to home is possible--IF we have the sense to see the opportunities which already surround us. Here in England, it was not unusual to see sweet corn grown in public parks merely for decoration. Municipal flower beds can be supplemented by equally attractive fruit trees and vegetable gardens.
Right now if I went to my window I could look out at common land where a local veterinarian is grazing a herd of nine beef cattle. The meat will be sold at a butcher's shop a 15 minute walk away.
It's great to see so many people waking from supermarket and agribusiness-induced slumber. Even if being totally self-sustaining is not easily possible, more is possible than we have realized.
We are not helpless and we should not be passive.
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» RE: we do not even begin to use our environment responsibly when we cling to the idea of scarcity
Posted by: jrgjniew
» actually, the UK is much more densely populated than most US states (and the last time I looked
Posted by: Suzon
» And your premise is?
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: we do not even begin to use our environment responsibly when we cling to the idea of scarcity
Posted by: dcande01
» what's so disgusting that a veterinarian or anybody else raises cows on a grassy common
Posted by: Suzon
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Posted by: Farmertim on Aug 13, 2009 3:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The microbes in the rumen of a cow, sheep, bison are the same as the microbes in the soil and as the process of digesting forage more are produced and passed on to the soil to enhance biological life AND create digestable food for the microbes, and other beneficial bacteria.
Take rumenants off soil, normal eats and the resulting transfer we begin to see the degredation of the soil wether Corporate Ag or vegans are the ones doing the removal.
1 lb of healthy balanced soil is estimated to hold trillions of microbs.
The more diverse the forage species of the soil the more varity of the microbial activity and the better rumenants can digest forage and eat satisfactorly on smaller acreages.
Big Ag doesn't tell you that microbes are responsible for up to 75% of a plants uptake of nutrients, they are the ones who give it to the plant in a way that the plant recognizes, commercial fertilizer creates weak acid to mimic the process but will not create a healthy disease weather variable resistant plant..so along comes the tech fees for sprays, GMO's ect. and before long you have large scale hydroponics.
The article is correct, just short on the real animals doing all the work, and rumenants, and humans role in the web we depend on.
For more info go to www.midwesternbioag.com
Farmer Tim
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Posted by: rcase on Aug 13, 2009 3:51 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Another Alternet food article that is simplistic in analysis
Posted by: jrgjniew
» I'll show you force
Posted by: je5752
» RE: Another Alternet food article that is simplistic in analysis
Posted by: progressiveview
» we should spend more money on food.
Posted by: PillarKY
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Posted by: frantaylor on Aug 13, 2009 4:31 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We raise livestock in these conditions because WE HAVE NO CHOICE.
There is simply not enough farmland available for us to continue down our current path.
We need to figure out how to feed more people on the land that we have.
The best way to do that is to grow food and eat it ourselves, not to grow food, feed it to animals, and then eat the animals. It is more than abundantly clear that the latter path is just leading us down the road to ruin, no matter how you try to dress it up.
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» RE: Take our population into account
Posted by: jrgjniew
» RE: Take our population into account
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: Take our population into account
Posted by: frantaylor
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Posted by: JenniferBedingfield on Aug 13, 2009 4:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: ProfBob on Aug 13, 2009 5:43 AM
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» Your data needs adjusting
Posted by: dkm
» RE: ProfBob 30 acres?????
Posted by: farmguy
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Posted by: LawsAgainstLaughing on Aug 13, 2009 5:51 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So too is 7 billion too many to farm in the way described in the article. While someone might claim that they can just raise a cow in their backyard, it turns out that these animals actually eat A WHOLE LOT of grass and to rangefeed cattle or hogs requires vast swaths of land and can threaten environments, accelerate erosion, attack biodiversity, etc. William Cronon's Changes in the Land is a dated, but still decent, book that describes the impact of hog farming in New England in the seventeenth century, long before factory farming. Concentrated animal feeding operations are cruel, and pollutive, but they are indeed concentrated, which is why they can thrive-- they are the only land-efficient way to raise and kill 7 billion animals a year.
The next problem is cost. Without the cruel efficiency of CAFOs and with the signficantly heightened costs of production, who would be able to afford meat? The answer is the wealthy, and the upper-middle class. The whole "'humane', range-fed meat is good, but normal meat is unethical" translates into, "rich people can eat whatever they want, and the working class has to eat what we tell them."
The worst part of this deplorably ignorant piece however, was the claim that, because a report is critical of meat it must be co-authored by fossil fuel interests, even though a vegetarian or vegan diet uses signifantly less fossil fuel. The delusion that everyone who shares an opinion different from you is part of some grand cabal is the kind of fare I'd expect from crazies like Alex Jones, not the fine folks at Alternet.
Fine question-- how many animals in the US are actually raised according to the author's standards? Considering organic and range-fed certifications are pretty easy to get, and considering most of the eggs and meat that are certified organic actually have a larger carbon footprint than non-organic meats (source: http://www.audubonmagazine.org/features0901/viewpoint.html), I'm dumfounded that some environmentalists still are content not only to reject vegetarianism or veganism, but to openly castigate it.
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» RE: litism, Delusion, and Strawmen, oh my!
Posted by: progressiveview
» RE: litism, Delusion, and Strawmen, oh my!
Posted by: progressiveview
» RE: litism, Delusion, and Strawmen, oh my!
Posted by: LawsAgainstLaughing
» RE: litism, Delusion, and Strawmen, oh my!
Posted by: wrinklemomma
» Another numerically challenged individual
Posted by: dkm
» RE: Another numerically challenged individual
Posted by: LawsAgainstLaughing
» RE: Another numerically challenged individual
Posted by: Rinalia
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Posted by: bobconway on Aug 13, 2009 6:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That is NOT a "ridiculous comparison." There are indeed TOO MANY PEOPLE on this planet.
In addition to exhaling a kilogram of C02 everyday we burn carbon and/or buy and use products for which carbon was burned in the manufacture, packaging, and/or transportation thereof; and we make many other demands on the planet's finite resources for many decades each.
The only ethical way to reduce the human population is for each of us to curtail our own reproduction. If you decide to produce a child, please be aware that you'll be adding an additional kilogram of CO2 to the atmosphere for every day that the new person lives. You'll be creating another consumer.
Not everyone can raise and slaughter his/her own grass-fed cattle; and even for those who can, grass will only get you through the growing season, which isn't all year round in New England. You've still got to expend some energy to produce hay for the winter. Are you really going to go out there and mow all your hay by hand and haul it to the barn without using a tractor? If you can do that, fine, raise and eat all the meat you think you'll need. Otherwise please consider eating less meat and more vegetables.
I agree, BTW, with Coleman's use of cattle to graze in areas where there's not sufficient arable soil to grow vegetable food crops. But for every acre of stony pasture land in New England there must be at least 20 acres of arable crop land in the Great Lakes, Great Plains, and other regions of the U.S. where it would make more sense to grow food crops than to raise meat. You can drive almost all the way across Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, and Nebraska -- that's about 1,000 miles or so -- and never be, except when you're driving through a town, where you can't look around and see either a corn, wheat, oats, hay or soybean field.
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» Peak oil will fix the overpopulation problem
Posted by: souffrantfleur
» RE: Peak oil will fix the overpopulation problem
Posted by: bobconway
» RE: Peak oil will fix the overpopulation problem
Posted by: souffrantfleur
» RE: bob, I have TWO WORDS for you - INCREMENTAL CHANGE.
Posted by: blurider
» Human breathing does NOT contribute to global warming
Posted by: yehadut
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Posted by: cdlepthien on Aug 13, 2009 6:30 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think we need to differentiate between prime, non-irrigated farmland and areas which naturally had a large ruminant grazing ecology. Grow crops on one & large ruminants on the other. Bison, while harder to handle than cows, are much more efficient in turning grass to meat and need alot less hay in the winter. It would be nice to make this transition before the Ogallala aquifer runs dry.
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Posted by: Bayardtom on Aug 13, 2009 7:06 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But the point is that the methods used to do this are horrendous.
You should read John Robbin's book - Diet for a New America. He talks about going to a slaughterhouse and seeing first hand the brutality in that profession. If everybody had to see that , the whole world would be vegetarian.
That is a big reason why I aspire to be a vegan all the time.It is for the animals. We had a pig when I was a child. He was a loving sentient creature and my sister and I loved him very much. This was the beginning of my veganism. He would run to meet us after school and nuzzle up to us , making soft sounds of pleasure when we petted him. We were horrified when our parents had him butchered.
Try veganism for a while. Meat and dairy are the cause of most of the serious diseases like heart failure, diabetes and stroke. We are still learning about the effect on our whole system from bad diet. Most of our problems come directly from what we eat. Society just refuses to learn and change because of greed, but, of course, that is the problem with our whole world. Case in point - the raging subject of providing the proper health care. If it weren't for the vampire insurance companies and big pharma using the lobbyists to bribe our representatives, we would have had a single payer health care plan ages ago the way the reat of the industrialized nations have done for a long time.
So, it is easy to see that everything in life is relative. The planet and everybody on it suffers because of the greed and insensitivity of people in power. We are the victims of the society we live in unless we educate ourselves and change our environment. Try it, you'll like it.
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» RE: caronome
Posted by: cdlepthien
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Posted by: ffrf.org on Aug 13, 2009 7:47 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
-free range in the pasture all day
-grooming
-play
-antibiotic free, etc.
such a terrible life.
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Posted by: SufiLizard on Aug 13, 2009 8:06 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At least one poster above mentioned the ethical issues in eating animals, and I think those are fair arguments - as someone who raises grass-fed cattle, I can admit that.
If you think it is immoral to kill an animal to eat it, then make that argument. Don't try to turn it into an environmental argument, because, as this author points out so well, that one just doesn't hold water.
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» RE: All Flesh Is Grass
Posted by: jonoruf
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Posted by: ETSpoon on Aug 13, 2009 9:15 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"How Ya Gonna Keep Em Down On the Farm (After They've Seen Paree)"?
You see, that's unspoken the problem with breaking the lock factory farming has on American agriculture, not enough farmers.
Ever since that song was written c. 1919 the United States, and Europe, has seen urban populations grow at the expense of rural areas leading to farms abandonment and consolidation. The sad fact is we in urban and suburban and exurban America would starve without factory farms!
To grow the types of foods to make us healthy will require some form agricultural readjustment and resettlement program on a grand scale. Unemployed city workers will need to be trained, at great expense, to farm. May will fail.
Suburban, white coordinator class college kids, safely tucked in front of their desktops in the dorm room or parent's basement, say they are willing to go back to the land. But once Monsanto or Citi waves the fat paycheck in their pasty faces all thoughts of farm life are banished to the land of childhood fantasies.
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» RE: The great problem
Posted by: Pissed Off Woman
» Haven' been keeping up, have you?
Posted by: dkm
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Posted by: happybear on Aug 13, 2009 9:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line on Aug 13, 2009 10:09 AM
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Posted by: jonoruf on Aug 13, 2009 10:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Also, many organic meat growers do in fact feed grain to their animals, so they are not always solely grass fed, especially when it comes to pork and chickens (which generally is a fair amount).
For cattle, organic growers usually do not feed a lot of grains to the cattle, and it is usually done towards the end of the animals shortened lifespan, but it still requires fossil fuels. Growing meat also requires A LOT of water.
He can argue the greenhouse/global warming stuff, but only so far. Eating meat is unsustainable unless you are doing it like the Indians did.
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» The Green Party of New Zealand analyzed this
Posted by: jparsons
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Posted by: zigy on Aug 13, 2009 10:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As an aside, a good way to conceptualize eating and nutrition is with the Paleolithic diet. For millions of years our ancestors subsisted on primarily fruits and vegetables (probably including tubers like the yam and sweet potato), with a moderate amount of exceedingly lean meat thrown in. ( This meat was nothing like today's corn feed, fat marbled beef which is too high in omega4 fatty acids; cattle would normally eat grass and thus their meat would naturally be higher in the more favorable omega3 fatty acids. Again, as the author alludes to, it is more profitable for agrabusiness to feed cattle the unnatural diet of corn[maize]). The Neolithic revolution (i.e. the beginning of agriculture) commenced all around the world (radiating out from 5, or possibly 6 locations) about 10, 000 years ago. In four of the five centers of crop domestication grain became the staple crop. In Peru the staple crop was the potato and in New Guinea, the possible sixth center of domestication, more reasearch needs to be done. The archeological evidence is unequivocal that people's health declined as a result of a now largely grain based diet. Thus the government food recommendations are rather flawed. A largely grain based diet is not fully healthy for several reasons not the least of which is that the starch in grains wreaks havoc on the otherwise virtually indestructible enamel of our teeth. It is not simple refined sugar that is harmful. There is increasing scientific evidence that the phytochemicals in fruits and vegetables (that is to say the various pigments) have powerful disease fighting properties when made available to the cells as part of the diet.
As a further aside, but pursuant to the emphasis on the Paleolithic, the importance of exercise to optimal health is understated. It is most likely our early human ancestors evolved to engage in aerobic activity from sun-up to sun-down, often jogging or running 20 to 30 miles a day in pursuit of wounded game (It was not until about 50,000 years ago that hunting technology had improved to the point where game could be quickly dispatched rather than merely wounded. Incidently it was this technology that contributed to the extinction of mega-fauna all around the world with the exception of Africa, where large animals had evolved in conjunction with human predition and had thus evolved a healthy fear of the small homonid. The horse was only domesticated four or five thousand years ago and for most of history only the most wealthy of men could afford to own and feed one. The kind of sedentariness that humans have fallen into since the invention (and mass marketing) of the automobile can be seen as an outlandish aberation that has done an enormous amount of harm to our species.
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» RE: Mr Coleman makes several good points...
Posted by: Paleo__Huntress
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Posted by: PillarKY on Aug 13, 2009 11:29 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And yet, he has the mind to make the legitimate point that meat eating does NOT necessarily equal unsustainable.
Elliot Coleman is displaying a much-needed ability to see beyond the differences of philosophies and to push aside any elitism and point us toward a healthy debate about climate change, diet, and sustainability. Awesome article.
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Posted by: beavmo on Aug 13, 2009 12:31 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» ...not that simple...
Posted by: PillarKY
» Poor analysis
Posted by: dkm
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Posted by: topview on Aug 13, 2009 4:11 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They are Genetically Modifying the crops to except poisonous herbicides that are washing into the sea and are causing the death of all living critters and plant life. That is causing huge dead zones. Destroying the marine phytoplankton, that use Co2 and produce oxygen.It is another problem with to much carbon not being consumed by natures way of balance.
That spraying process is destroying the soil for any other use except to keep spraying chemicals on the land to grow GM crops that are not natural and causes sickness in all animals and humans.
Mother nature is seeking revenge on us for screwing with her natural process in keeping a balance in the environment, and that is caused by the Big Ag business for greedy profits without concern for the damage they are causing to the earth and it,s inhabitants.
Their spraying Roundup on the crops and soil is throwing the whole eco system out of balance and destroying everything in its path.
Just how long can this destruction continue before we have a collapse of our environment? When the base of the food chain, Phytoplankton, is destroyed, the rest of life on this planet will follow.
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Posted by: pfm on Aug 13, 2009 4:21 PM
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For me the question is NOT whether one is vegan, or not, or that unless we choose a reality wherein petrochemical fertilizers, pesticides, etc are utilized we can not feed today's population let alone the population expected tomorrow.
I am reminded how it is written the natives with NO foundation were honestly unable to see the arriving ships coming on the horizon until they were virtually anchored in their harbor. It was NOT because they were trying to be contrary, but rather because their perspective was limited. Might this be a condition we are facing today. Because we have no hands on experience with agriculture abiding by a more "holistic" paradigm, does this ipso-facto preclude its validity....? Our individual and/or collective inability to see does not make any contrary condition automatically false or does it.....?
Respectfully submitted
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Posted by: deejayvee on Aug 13, 2009 6:03 PM
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Nice to see something other than the usual vegetarian articles here on Alternet.
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Posted by: tokerdesigner on Aug 13, 2009 6:26 PM
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2. Further down zigy discusses the paleolithics (before agriculture, 10000 BC) who got a lot of exercise hunting, and ate a wider variety of fruit than we do today. Our digestive system is not that different. Goodall (Africa) reports that chimpanzees eat about 80% fruit-- and some meat (monkey is their money).
3. Chimpanzees also eat termites which they catch by wetting a stick with saliva, sticking it down a hole in a termite nest, and bringing it up with termites crawling on it. I remember years ago seeing a fly-trap which consisted of a light inside a barred area; the flies trying to get in would touch two bars at once completing a circuit and fry (ssssssst!) right there. We nee only add a system where the execution of a fly triggers a fan inside sucking the carcass down into a freezer compartment; a truck drives around daily to empty out the compartments, and the flesh is made into QUICHE (kitsch), PESTO, GUACAMOLE etc. Who needs beefcattle anymore, we have the technology to eat lower on the food chain.
4. Galdikas (Borneo) reports that orangutans eat 400 species of fruit. Think a moment: how many species of vegetation can you name that you eat? And how many of the species do you know how to open, crush, penetrate to get to the edible part (let alone how to cook with your firestove)? Are we the smartest kind of ape or not?
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» RE: Great Ape Perspective
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
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Posted by: eatplants on Aug 14, 2009 2:00 PM
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Posted by: louissa on Aug 18, 2009 10:56 AM
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Posted by: Cheryl Long on Aug 18, 2009 3:41 PM
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Posted by: TomOfMaine on Aug 18, 2009 5:13 PM
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Posted by: boay on Aug 18, 2009 6:46 PM
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Posted by: howtoboilafrog on Aug 19, 2009 11:20 AM
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The fact is, peak oil and other systemic problems will take down this system, which nobody really believes is sustainable indefinitely, either because the resources necessary to support it will start to be insufficient, or because the environmental consequences of it will drastically reduce human population to the point where we’re back in balance with our sustainable food supply. I just hope we find a more humane and equitable route to that time than just volunteering everyone who can't grow their own grass-fed cow to give up beef, so that the few who CAN, can carry on doing it. And I say that as someone who doesn't eat beef, for all of the reasons listed above.
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