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Environment

Is It Possible to Be a Conscientious Meat Eater?

By Sunaura Taylor and Alexander Taylor, AlterNet. Posted February 18, 2009.


The "new meat movement" is against industrial meat production, but not against eating meat. Their thinking is problematic.
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You may have noticed an onslaught of articles recently on what is being coined as the "new meat movement." The most recent is an article in Newsweek, "Head To Hoof: A butcher helps lead a new carnivore movement."

These articles almost all support the idea that cruelty to animals is wrong and that factory-produced meat is unjustifiably bad for the environment. However, they are not opposed to meat in and of itself, they are simply opposed to industrial meat.

These "conscientious omnivores," believe it is possible, and preferable, to eat meat the old-fashioned way -- on small, sustainable and local farms, with farmers who love their animals and perhaps even have pet names for them.

The backlash against industrial meat has been brewing for many reasons. Ever-increasing knowledge of the industry's effect on the environment, human starvation and animal welfare, is making it harder for even the most ardent omnivore to consume meat without guilt.

The much-quoted report by the United Nations Food and Agricultural Organization, "Livestock’s Long Shadow -- Environmental Issues and Options" (Nov. 29, 2006), did a lot to raise awareness about the animal industry's devastating effects on the planet and global warming.

More and more, people are also realizing the troubling connections between human starvation and eating animal products. It takes approximately 16 pounds of grain and 2,500 gallons of water to produce 1 pound of meat (thus feeding one or two people on meat versus approximately 16 people on grain). Much of this grain is grown in developing countries, where a large percentage of their land is used for cattle-raising for export to the United States, instead of being used to grow staple crops, which could feed local people directly. In a world where a child starves to death every 2 seconds, it seems impossible to justify such waste.

The animal industry is partly responsible for the destruction of the Amazon and other forests, for our world's diminishing water supply, for the release of huge amounts of greenhouse gases, and basically every other environmental problem. People are also more readily accepting that the animals themselves deserve a life free from cruelty and that factory farms give them anything but.

Vegans and vegetarians have been saying many of these things for years, but it seems that people have only started listening now that there is simultaneously a proposed solution to this problem: "happy meat."

"Local," "grass-fed," "sustainably produced," "humanely raised" and "free-range" are just a few of the benevolent-sounding phrases that greet conscientious shoppers in the meat department. Animal-rights activists jokingly call these products "happy meat."

Many of these products tout pictures of smiling pigs, happy farmers in green pastures and stickers that say "humane." For many people who care about the environment and animal welfare, choosing to eat "humanely raised" meat seems like an option that honors traditional farmers and diets while also solving the ethical problems of environmental degradation and animal suffering.

But it solves neither of these problems. This meat is high-priced, and its production is an even less-efficient use of land and resources. It is often marketed as luxurious, an indulgence to be lingered over. It is inherently not adaptable to a national or international solution. Local organic meat is for an elite few, and not a practicable alternative to the massive crisis of industrial meat production.

For the first time in history, an entire civilization consumes meat as a staple. How can America truly produce enough of this "happy meat" (not too mention happy milk and happy eggs), to feed this country even a fraction of the animal products we currently consume?

Truth be told, this meat is a marketing gimmick, an ideological pose, which assuages the ethical compulsions of those who consume it even though it does nothing to kick America's cheap meat habit, and perhaps contributes to the growing international fetishization of meat as a class signifier.

Articles on the "new meat movement" never pose questions like, "could all of America's animal products be grown locally?" And they never mention what the vast majority of Americans who can't afford the prized local animal products will be consuming if all factory farms shut down -- they'd be vegan.

These farms are described as ethical because of the fact that they are small, sustainable and have kinder animal-husbandry practices. As many people have pointed out, these farms can individually produce meat in a way that is arguably just as "green" as eating vegan.


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See more stories tagged with: vegetarian, meat, vegan

Sunaura Taylor is an artist, writer and activist in Oakland, Calif. Alexander Taylor studies philosophy and ethics in Athens, Ga.

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RE: I will never give up meat.
Posted by: Perry Logan on Feb 18, 2009 2:51 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances of survival for life on earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."
--Albert Einstein

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» Einstein could be right... Posted by: Cathyc
RE: I will never give up meat.
Posted by: exandermals on Feb 18, 2009 5:54 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So you are acknowledging that our collective hyper meat consumption is stealing food from children in underdeveloped countries and heavily contributing to a child dying from starvation every 2 seconds, and yet you are celebrating your beef fixation.... wow...that either makes you a sub-human or a hypocrite; its hard to believe that if children were right in front of you and you had to choose between a child's survival and your steak you would still make your argument. You need to learn to be a man.

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» RE: Believe it. Posted by: exandermals
RE: I will never give up meat.
Posted by: 4jlewis on Feb 18, 2009 12:05 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's your funeral, and it will no doubt come long before you are 68.

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RE: I will never give up meat... which is why we should work perfecting artificial meat.
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com on Feb 18, 2009 2:01 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Science organizations having been working on creating cloned meat in a laboratory that has the same texture has hamburger.

With most people eating hamburger rather than steak or veal that could significantly reduce the amount of cows needed.


We should be working on a scientific way to solve the problem. You are not going to get people to give up meat unless it costs a fortune, case in point with Honkey the Misanthrope.

But if people had a choice between lab grown meat and killing cows for meat and blind taste tests showed it tasted the same, I think many if not most people would switch to lab grown meat.

I heard PETA was offering a $1 million prize to the first lab or company that comes up with a lab grown meat replacement.

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RE: I will never give up meat.
Posted by: bornxeyed on Feb 18, 2009 9:37 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would rather die of colon cancer at 68

I hope I'm around to witness your reaction when you are diagnosed with cancer before you collect a cent of retirement money.

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Meat is Murder - Tasty Tasty Murder
Posted by: jtalle on Feb 18, 2009 12:39 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've often wondered if Vegans consider breastfeeding to be a form of cannibalism...

But no, it's very obvious that we developed this binocular vision we have, so that we can hunt down those herds of broccoli.

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» Beck, give it a rest! Posted by: veg4peace
» RE:Vegetarian, not vegan Posted by: TheLimit
» Buy B12 and go veg Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Buy B12 and go veg Posted by: bornxeyed
refuting "not even close"
Posted by: vasumurti on Feb 18, 2009 10:07 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
During 1986 - 1988, when I had access to USENET, a nationwide computer network linking corporations, military bases, think tanks, universities, etc., I paid close attention to the abortion debate. The subject of animal rights always came up, albeit indirectly.

The mentality of the pro-choicers was that the fetus wasn't human, but rather some kind of lower life form--and that lower life forms couldn't possibly have rights.

When a pro-lifer discussed the potential humanity of the unborn, a pro-choicer replied, "MY CAT has more potential than that!"

One pro-choicer said sarcastically, "Maybe the kid (the fetus) should be raised as a vegetarian. After all, don't cows have the right to life?"

Another pro-choicer, Oleg Kiselev, upon hearing the pro-life argument that brain waves can be detected in the unborn as early as six weeks, pointed out that animals also have brain waves. He then added, "Excuse me, while I eat my veal stew."

In the spring of 1988, Stephen Carrier, a grad student in Mathematics at UC Berkeley, pointed out that chimpanzees share 99 percent of their DNA with humans, and so, to argue that species membership alone makes life worth protecting "is to fetishize DNA."

A pro-lifer responded: "If it'll please you, I will agree to protect anything that is 99 percent human."

To this, Stephen responded: "Okay. How about 50 percent? That would probably bring quite a few species into the net."

Stephen Carrier admitted, "I don't know what makes it acceptable to kill animals for meat. Some people think it's wrong, and I have no logical answer for them. But it's not murder, and I believe abortions are analogous. Yes, it's killing--but it's not murder."

Stephen admitted his argument was "not a mathematical proof, but there is no mathematical proof that will resolve the abortion debate."

In the fall of 1986, pro-life student John Morrow of Rutgers University compared abortion to slavery: Roe v. Wade denied rights to an entire class of humans merely on account of their age and developmental status, just as the Dred Scott decision of 1857 denied rights to an entire class of humans based on the color of their skin.

Dave Butler of Tektronix in Oregon responded: "Abortion and slavery? Not even close. A fetus isn't human. If you believe it's wrong to eat meat, should your morality be imposed upon everyone else?"

"Not even close" has become a popular slogan with pro-choicers. It even appeared on the headlines of most San Francisco Bay Area newspapers in November 1992, when Bill Clinton was elected.

"Not even close" is not a new slogan. Peter Singer writes in Animal Liberation that when Mary Wollstonecraft, a forerunner of today’s feminists, published A Vindication of the Rights of Women in 1792, "her views were widely regarded as absurd."

Thomas Taylor, a distinguished Cambridge philosopher, tried to refute Mary Wollstonecraft by demonstrating that if women could be given liberation, then animals could be given liberation, too. And since this is "absurd" it must be equally "absurd" to give women liberation. Taylor called his parody, "A Vindication of the Rights of Brutes."

"Not even close" is the "A Vindication of the Rights of Brutes" of the late 20th and early 21st century, because it takes for granted the invincible prejudice that other animals couldn't possibly have rights. It is this prejudice which we in the animal rights movement are struggling to overcome.

Again, the mentality of the pro-choicers was that the fetus wasn't human, but some kind of lower life form--and that lower life forms couldn't possibly have rights. This led me to conclude that if there's any group out there which ought to be sympathetic to animal rights, it's pro-lifers.

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» RE: refuting "not even close" Posted by: TheLimit
wrong fight...
Posted by: cordas on Feb 18, 2009 1:05 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The "new meat movement" has got sod all to do with the anti-meat movement. Its about improving the quality of meat we eat, its also about trying to make our (meat eaters) life style choices have a less harsh effect on the animals we eat.

I am sick to death of the constant whinging of veggies and vegans, and how upset / offended they get when you challange their lifestyle choices (usually after having to suffer a tirade of ill concieved garbage that they spout). Maybe they should realise that if everyone stopped eating meat then millions / billions of animals would be killed on the spot because farmers would have no reason to rear them and the land they graze would be required to grow food to support us.

The whole bloody arguement is null and void in my opinion... there is no right or wrong, humans have evolved to be omnivores, that means we evolved to eat both plant matter and meat, yes it is possible to cut one of those from the equation but doing so doesn't make you morally superior, it doesn't mean that people who choose to eat both are murdering scum either.

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» Excellent point. Posted by: -matti
» Dittoed ya! (In Advance) Posted by: -matti
» RE: wrong fight...you're right Posted by: bornxeyed
» trees Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: wrong fight... Posted by: aichbe
I take offense
Posted by: veig on Feb 18, 2009 1:15 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
at your stance on broccolis: those vegetables have lives of their own, and like every one of us they breathe, they mate, they look forward to a better world for their descendants.

And look at the cruelty of those harvester machines, mercilessly cutting the wheat stems and beating their rigs to a pulp, just to get the grain out of them; and then imagine the horror of those grains when they realize they're about to get crushed in the mill ! How dare you eat that slice of bread, you mass murderer !

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» i have a vivid memory Posted by: aislinnluv
The Author has sure "never seen" a lot of things that are prominent in the discussion.
Posted by: -matti on Feb 18, 2009 2:18 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article is ridiculous ideological propaganda.

How the hell can one write a whole article on the growing local and natural-diet animal-food market an NOT mention Joel Salatin?!?

Ummm, he's just like the most popular advocate for all of this, maybe he should be mentioned?

Maybe the fact that his Polyface Farms not only produces massive ammounts of consumables per acre but also INCREASES soil health could be mentioned as well?

And the fact that increased soil health -by definition- involves carbon sequesturing within a pro-biotic ecosystem?

The population CAN be fed from local agriculture, and it fact, it MUST BE.

Industrial Ag is NOT SUSTAINABLE!

Small scale, organic, intensively planned and managed farms -because they are both animal and vegetable and fungal- can and DO produce at the equivalent level of Industrial Ag operations.

They also improve soil health, animal health, plant health, fungal health, human health, waterway health, ocean health, i.e. BIOSPHERICAL HEALTH!

We are an omnivorous species.

We are an intelligent or tool-using species.

The challenge for us was to find a way to remain true to our omnivorousness while not allowing our technical capability to upset the ecological balance.

WE HAVE FAILED AT THIS.

The new challenge is to use our intelligece to RESTORE the ecological balance and stabilize it in conjunction with our society.

This is what Sustainability IS.

Farms MUST become small and local in order to acheive this rebalancing and stabilization.

Local farms MUST utilize animal labor and produce SOME animal-food or they will NEVER produce at the necessary level for feeding all of us.

Ideological attitudes will be the death of us all -unless we hinder them.

This article lambasts and misrepresents one of the ONLY "food movements" that seems to stand a chance of helping us -since it doesn't begin with the common assumption of "movements": "Everyone but us is a bunch of assholes.

For veggie types who STILL can't see the utility and ecologic of animal-foods, I'll offer this final suggestion.

Try not to see a pig as "meat", try to see it as a highly efficient "counter-entropy machine". A pig can convert slop plants into usable calories and nutrients at a far superior rate than can a compost pile.

Counter-Entropy is a friggin' CORNERSTONE of Sustainability, dangit!

Think of pigs as the "waste-oil recycling" of the Farm, and then you might start to get it.

-matti.

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» Very Annoying Posted by: setterwoman
It's bad karma to eat your fellow mammals.
Posted by: Perry Logan on Feb 18, 2009 2:55 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think meat-eaters can be as conscientious as anyone.

But they'll still smell bad. ;)

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» if we eat them Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: I'm glad I smell "bad". Posted by: gilliani
» That's why I only eat Posted by: leighsure
Wrong concept of rights
Posted by: brunowe on Feb 18, 2009 3:00 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Rights are based on moral agency, not the ability to feel suffering. Humans are assumed to be generally morally accountable for their actions because we are assumed to be able to make moral distinctions and choose, or not choose, to act according to them.

"The concept of equality itself rests on the ability to feel suffering. There is no other standard by which to base equality that does not leave out some subset of human being. If equality is based on intelligence or ability to plan for the future, than babies and many developmentally disabled people would not be included."

In fact, babies are the responsibility of adults precisely because they are considered to not have fully developed the ability to apply the type of considerations that moral agency entails. Likewise, someone who is developmentally disabled to the point where they can't be held responsible for their actions is generally placed under someone else's care or made a ward of the state. However, because they are part of a species that generally has that ability, they still retain rights that aren't applicable to non-humans.

This is also consistent with the concept of legal insanity, at least as applied in the Anglo-American legal tradition, where the test is based on awareness of one's actions AND the ability to make moral distinctions.

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» RE: Wrong concept of rights Posted by: profoflitandtrout
» RE: Wrong concept of rights Posted by: Snurpa
» RE: Wrong concept of rights Posted by: brunowe
» Moral agency Posted by: Tricia
» RE: Moral agency Posted by: TheLimit
the article rather overstates its legitmate concerns about very real issues
Posted by: Suzon on Feb 18, 2009 3:10 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I write as an omnivore who eats many meatless meals and who is willing to pay more for food that comes from animals which have not been raised in terrible conditions.

A step I would recommend to meat-eaters who do have a conscience is to raise some chickens if at all possible. Eggs can give you cruelty-free protein and the B vitamins which you can't get from veggies. You think more about the meat that you do eat and make more of an effort not to waste what you do buy. I live in a city and am able to supply friends and neighbors with eggs that have NO road miles.

We have spent many thousands of years as hunter-gatherers, so it's understandable that we still eat meat as well as nuts and berries. If the article writers want to convert us, they have to get us to listen first and one way to do that is to refrain from overstating the case.

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» i have often wondered Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: i have often wondered Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: i have often wondered Posted by: bornxeyed
» absolutely right Posted by: aislinnluv
» one may only hope Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: absolutely right Posted by: veig
» mebbe so, but Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: You are missing the point. Posted by: TheLimit
Vegetarian Myth
Posted by: corey86 on Feb 18, 2009 3:41 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Tryptophan is a neurotransmitter that we need for our neurons to fire. There are NO good plant sources of it. You must get it from meat.

A diet high in grains (wheat, corn, rice)--what a vegetarian/vegan diet requires--is suspected as the culprit behind our high rates of diabetes and heart disease. We were never meant to eat this much grain.

Vegetarians and vegans are mistaken to think that only animals suffer and that plants do not.

Industrial farming of grains and plants is ALSO harmful for the environment--just as industrial meat is harmful for the environment. The appropriate question to ask is "does the food I'm eating destroy topsoil?"

I appeal to the author and to similarly minded vegetarians and vegans to read the as-yet-unpublished book "The Vegetarian Myth" by Lierre Keith.
http://www.lierrekeith.com/vegmyth.htm

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» Who's Myth? Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Who's Myth? Posted by: corey86
» RE: Who's Myth? Posted by: progressiveview
» RE: Who's Myth? Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Who's Myth? Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Who's Myth? Posted by: corey86
» RE: Who's Myth? Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Who's Myth? Posted by: corey86
» RE: Who's Myth? Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Who's Myth? Posted by: TheLimit
» RE: Who's Myth? Posted by: corey86
» RE: Who's Myth? Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: Vegetarian Myth Posted by: jarbo
» RE: Vegetarian Myth Posted by: corey86
» RE: Vegetarian Myth Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Vegetarian Myth Posted by: TheLimit
» RE: Vegetarian Myth Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Vegetarian Myth Posted by: progressiveview
» RE: Vegetarian Myth Posted by: corey86
» RE: Vegetarian Myth Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Vegetarian Myth Posted by: corey86
Hmmmmm
Posted by: talkville on Feb 18, 2009 3:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those who extract, and abstract, a particular mode of human behavior and means of existence must be always challenged.

Humans have teeth.

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» RE: Hmmmmm Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Hmmmmm Posted by: talkville
» RE: Hmmmmm Posted by: bornxeyed
» Furthermoire Posted by: bornxeyed
While I am mainly vegetarian, I take offense to those who attack meat eaters.
Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield on Feb 18, 2009 4:13 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Look, it's not their eating meat that's the problem. The fact is they're being entreated to overprocessed poor quality type. The author conveniently ignores the actual history of meat production. 50 years ago my parents could brag about getting high quality better tasting meat right off the local family farms. Enter the corporate factory farms for profit at the expense of wiping out the farmers and poisoning this country with corn-fed shit. Did you know that most vegan dishes use up just as much water and fossil fuels as corn-fed meat and milk?

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» reference? Posted by: bornxeyed
» references Posted by: YogiBear
» Ha! Posted by: -matti
» autocratic smacks Posted by: Tim Behrend
» RE: autocratic smacks Posted by: bornxeyed
» get right on that, will you? Posted by: aislinnluv
» My advice: Leave Houston. Posted by: -matti
» it's on the agenda Posted by: aislinnluv
I think it can be about compassion -
Posted by: jarbo on Feb 18, 2009 4:17 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Few things seem to get people fired up more on Alternet than the pro-vegetarian articles. While there ARE many environmental problems stemming from raising meat animals, some statements in the article are extreme - "The animal industry is partly responsible for...basically every other environmental problem." But the point about the inefficiency of eating meat rather than the grains it's raised on in a world where many are underfed or starving is true.

Yes, animals can be viewed as nutrient concentrating machines but they are also able to feel pain and enjoy simple pleasures - I think a pig is happier in the sun than in a foul pen, cattle are happier in a pasture than a CAFO, etc etc. Those who view them merely as such machines lack compassion.

I became a (mostly) non-meat eater 25 or so years ago for health reasons. There had been a number of studies showing that balanced vegetarians were healthier, esp. regarding degenerative disease, also considerable evidence that most people on Western diets get too much protein - eating the would-have-been-fed-to-the-animal grains (along with other plant sources) can give one plenty.
The longer I've done it, the more I also feel good about not contributing to animal suffering.
I don't get over-righteous about it, nor try to convert people, but it seems the compassionate thing to do.

Arguments about being omnivores, "we spent tens of thousands of years hunting", "You want to see cruelty - look what happens to animals in nature", etc., seem to me to mostly miss the point - that being that we are equipped to make the choice between eating meat or not.
While I certainly have more respect for a hunter who, after killing his/her prey, actually eats the thing (I have a brother who does so - butchers the deer himself), or a subsistence farmer in Africa who keeps a few animals and eats one once in a while, I think that if most people, including the anti-veg posters here, did see an inhumane slaughtering operation or had to kill and butcher their own meat, they would view the situation differently.

We're intellectually equipped to make the choice, and similarly equipped to do so in a dietarily intelligent and balanced way.

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killing is killing unless
Posted by: shikejian on Feb 18, 2009 4:33 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
it's a plant, right? But...I'll still be healthy during a drought or a flood or some other natural disaster that wipes out your vegetables while you will be begging for food...or breaking your fast. Duh! Hello-ooo Homer Simpson.

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Blah, blah, blah - pass me a sirloin. Send one to those kids in Darfur, too. Better'n dirt cookies
Posted by: thekidde on Feb 18, 2009 4:45 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.

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Stick to what you know
Posted by: Frank J. on Feb 18, 2009 4:58 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"An acre of land used for grass-fed beef could feed 10 times as many people if used for crops."

I'm OK with you complaining about meat eaters even those of us who are raising the animals in a sustainable way and as a part of a diversified farm.
You're just like the evangelists and mormons who work so hard to convert me.
But please don't show your ignorance with statements like the one quoted. The quality of land on farms varies greatly and much of what we graze can't support other agrarian efforts.
Apparently it would be better if farms just stopped farming. We can't win.

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» That's correct Posted by: ReallyBearish
» That's maybe partially correct Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Stick to what you know Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: Stick to what you know Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Stick to what you know Posted by: TheLimit
A few thoughts
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line on Feb 18, 2009 5:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Grass fed animals generally have a lower fat content
Grass fed or pastured anything is usually as low impact as possible using existing hay fields and farm ponds to subsist on. I.E. no extra water is brought to them.
Supporting your local farmer keeps box stores from growing on their land

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A question about "16 pounds of grain"
Posted by: RossB on Feb 18, 2009 5:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've heard that before, but never got an answer to the following:

16 pounds of grain + 2500 gallons of water = 1 pound of meat. But conservation of mass still exists, unless the cow has a fission reactor in any of its four stomachs.

So let's amend:

16 pounds of grain + 2500 gallons of water = 1 pound of meat, 15 pounds of poop and 2499 gallons of pee. (Colloquially speaking)

Won't the non-meat portions of the equation, give or take, be naturally recycled to make more grain?

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Point is.. WE don't give a shit.
Posted by: corgyn on Feb 18, 2009 6:22 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If there are 1 in 1000 Americans that actually know where most of these starving children even are I would be surprised. If 1 in 10,000 had ever given 12 seconds of thought to the possibility that their MickeyD might have a connect to global hunger I will be stunned and I bet you a million virtual dollars that somewhere about 1 in 1,000,000 Americans are going to give up beef to save anything.
And why should we?
Starving children in Darfur is not a problem that directly effect me or you in any way. Nor is Gaza, Afghanistan, Columbia, Germany or any of our foreign involvements.
American First and screw the rest

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Since when is 14% a meat heavy diet
Posted by: kad on Feb 18, 2009 6:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
According to the latest data available the average American only get 14% of there calories from meat/fish/foul. Contrast this with 17% from added sugars, 23% from refined grains, and 22% from combined corn oil and corn starch. I guess the anti meat activist are never ones to let facts get in the way of philosophy.

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An ethical meat eater will eat less meat.
Posted by: JakobFabian01 on Feb 18, 2009 7:02 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we convert people to veganism until vegans number 50% of the population, we will cut the world's consumption of meat in half.

If we encourage every meat eater to cut his or her meat consumption in half, we will achieve exactly the same goal.

Now, which scenario do you imagine is more likely?

The article somewhat overstates its case when it presents veganism as the only ecological way to live. It puts me in mind of the fanatical population controllers who say that the Chinese one-child system is the only way to save the human species. Or the fanatical fetus-rights activists who say that prohibiting abortion (with no exceptions) is the only way to save our collective soul.

Indeed, there is a lot of similarity between fetus-rights absolutism and animal-rights absolutism. Both ethical systems are too narrowly focused to qualify as fully ecological, though I'll admit that the animal-rights agenda is much broader and comes much closer to ecological responsibility than the fetus-rights agenda does.

Don't get me wrong. I believe veganism is a wonderful idea, just as I believe family planning is a wonderful idea, and just as I admire pregnant women who choose - freely choose - to give birth even when they are worried that bringing up a child will be difficult. My hat goes off to vegans, birth-control users, and brave mothers everywhere. However, most people are not going to be morally pure 100% of the time, and we should be more charitable than to punish them for being human. Therefore, I also admire ethical meat eaters, the parents of three children (oops), and professional abortion providers.

If people can be encouraged to think more about where their meat comes from (and Michael Pollan and Joel Salatin do an excellent job of this), I guarantee you they will consume less meat. Simply the price of ethically produced meat will require them to reduce their meat consumption. So why protest against the ethical omnivores? Aren't they on our side?

If we are concerned that in the future only the rich will be able to afford meat, there's a way around that, too. It's called progressive taxation. But really, I don't believe either the rich or the poor will eat more than very modest amounts of meat when we require animals to be ethically treated, ecologically fed, and cleanly slaughtered. It will simply be too expensive.

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Animal cruelty? Don't make me laugh.
Posted by: AJR Journal on Feb 18, 2009 7:16 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How can cruelty produce meat? Animals are housed properly, fed wonderful diets, veterinarians are always involved (if needed), and the animals are encouraged to do what they are there to do, namely grow healthfully to shipping weight.
Billions of people enjoy the best diet in the history of the planet as the result of exactly this kind of food production.
The World's diet has never been better.

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» Incredulous Posted by: Tricia
» Tell your Mom I said "Hi". Posted by: AJR Journal
Lentils are a perfect substitute for meat.
Posted by: maxpayne on Feb 18, 2009 7:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I used to eat meat but after watching my health and looks suffer, my wife introduced me to the wide variety of Indian lentils. 1.5 years later, my health improved and surprisingly I recovered from near baldness. Lentils don't take as much water to grow plus unlike the protein from meat, the plant protein is digestible and easily absorbed by the blood stream and you can bypass all that unnecessary fat.

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But...but...but...
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Feb 18, 2009 7:42 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...if moo-cows weren't meant to be eaten, they wouldn't have been made out of steak!

I salivate thinking about steak. Unless you're a creationist, you have to accept that genes play a large part in our most basic behaviors. Our entire digestive system makes us ideal omnivores; behaving like an omnivore is only natural.

It's too expensive to have all that often--for me, personally--but wow does it ever taste like nothing else coming off a charcoal grill with just a pinch of garlic, and salt and pepper. Those first few bites...

...lubberly!

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» RE: But...but...but... Posted by: OldRedleg
Poor Meat Eaters :-(
Posted by: Klaus on Feb 18, 2009 7:49 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Meat eaters, so easy a caveman can do it.

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This article is really lame.
Posted by: ffrf.org on Feb 18, 2009 7:55 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are a few problems with your purest approach.

1. Your problem first seems to be with meat production, but that logic is carried to a strange place.

If efficiency of food production is your criterion, you should be cheering on those factory farms. Afterall, those silly organic farmers who sell meat are wasteful, not using their precious farm land for more sprouts.

Which, by your logic, is not just wasteful, but part of a class war on the poor.

Only those benevolent elitist who are easily fooled by ANTI-ANIMAL marketing should eat that meat. Afterall, baby steps are bad. A reformist mindset is bad. THIS IS ALTERNET- REVOLUTION2.0.

2. "This meat is too expensive to feed everyone."

Thats the point. If there is to be a movement against meat, and a reduction of meat consumption, there has to be a corollary market force. This can be done with regulation (health regulations for meat, drive up the price), as well as cultural factors away from "conventional" farming.

But thats exactly the point: WE NEED TO START PAYING THE REAL PRICE OF MEAT, JUST AS WE NEED TO START PAYING THE REAL PRICE OF OIL!

The only way to kick our addiction to cheap meat is to make other protein sources more affordable, and make happy meat a once a week entre.


HAPPY MEAT ISN'T "THE ANSWER", ITS THE STEPPING STONE TO A BETTER DIET, A BETTER ECOLOGY, AND A BETTER FOOD ETHIC.

but then again, this is alternet, so revolt away. dont worry about pragmatic, workable, reformist solutions from a progressive prospective. that would be responsible.

lolz.

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This was a very narrow-sighted article.
Posted by: Duncable on Feb 18, 2009 8:04 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As I've seen stated in a few other comments, the main issue is the amount of meat we consume, not the fact that we consume it at all.

I'm a meat eater, I love a nice healthy baked chicken breast, and on occassion a big juicy filet mignon. But, appx. 2-4 days a week, I eat vegetarian. Its cheaper, it tastes just as good, and its healthy. However, I'll never cut meat out of my diet completely.

Americans eat too much meat, but they also eat too much of a lot of other things that are far more harmful, to their own bodies and to the environment. They eat the wrong kinds of meat, as well, and buy it from the worst sources.

If people would just educate themselves better about their diets, and where their food is coming from, it could solve a lot of problems. Pretending like meat-eating in general is the problem is just scapegoating the real issue, and that is the fact that people don't do anything mindfully in their daily lives. If you think about the consequences of your actions, and what it takes to produce the things you use on a daily basis, the entire world would be so much better off.

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What Else is Problematic
Posted by: Gravitas on Feb 18, 2009 8:04 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is one group of people pushing their values on another group. As a sociologist I know that a common morality is necessary for a culture. When we starting disagreeing about sexual mores, many of the same "progressives" starting pushing their food choices on others. Really, what is the difference between a fundamentalist Christian fearing homosexuals are going to bring down society, and vegans using selected science to say meat consumption is destroying the planet? When we evangelize, we always come up with dire consequences unless we change our ways.

Maybe we should start to question our aversion to death itself. Certainly factory farming is cruel and should be changed. But what if an animal had a great life on a family farm and was killed humanely? Personally, I am hoping for a nice quick heart attack in my late 50s or early 60s rather than a protracted old age of poverty. What is so wrong with death? If we want to talk about absolute absolutes, one of the few things we ARE certain of i. Maybe s death! Maybe we should stop considering it the ultimate tragedy and come to terms with it.

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Oversimplifying the issue!
Posted by: metallarissa on Feb 18, 2009 8:21 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"..[humans] have advanced beyond the necessity of violence to supply ourselves with food. We, uniquely, choose what we eat."

I'm a vegetarian, so obviously I agree with some of your points.
However, your argument rests on the assumption that we are vastly different from animals because we are more developed evolutionarily. That in itself seems a rather unfair statement, doesn't it? If we have the obligation to treat animals humanely, why characterize animals as creatures inferior to us?
Having said that, on an evolutionary scale, we are made for ominvorous diets. Do we consider it cruel when one animal kills another for food? No. It's called survival. But when we do it, it's murder. I don't think that is fair. That is NOT to say that torture is justified at all...it's not. Animals deserve long and healthy lives without being caged and abused. But at the same time, to respect nature and our past is to eat a little meat now and then...which involves killing an animal. Does that mean we are not respecting the animal? Not necessarily. It depends on the intentions.

Humans rely so heavily on agriculture now that it is dangerous to even think that we can all (billions of humans) live happily on carbs and veggies forever. With that mindset, mono-cropping on a major scale (as is done now) will eventually strip the soil of its nutrients and cause less output, resulting in..yes, famine. Even with a planet of vegetarians and vegans!
The reality is, the earth cannot sustain billions of people without major damage being done to the land. We have simply pushed our culture and technology far enough to allow our population to grow exponentially. We can't keep it up. So I feel that your article only addresses a symptom of the real problem, which is the impossibility of sustaining the number of people we have on earth with our agricultural systems.
I will say that since we have food readily available all the time, people today don't technically NEED to eat meat at this point, but our ancestors certainly did. And not eating meat won't change the fact that we are stripping soil of vital nutrients and doing much unseen damage to the planet.

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Must watch "EARTHLINGS" !!!!
Posted by: Klaus on Feb 18, 2009 8:25 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I challenge any and all omnivores to watch "EARTHLINGS" linked text This is an absoulety phenomenal documentary. Enjoy!

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Extending the reach of small-scale farmers
Posted by: tamareadler on Feb 18, 2009 8:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Surely there are important questions we all face when we choose to engage in the complicated practice of eating other animals.

I'll only write about one aspect of the question. While some amount of pride is appropriate for people who have found a way to buy meat locally, smugness, which sometimes jumps on board, is not, because of the very questions raised about the ethics of exclusivity in the posting. It is true: local meat is more expensive in stores. People must pay a premium because the scale at which small, diversified farms operate impede their participation in the well-oiled distribution network that services most restaurants, retail stores and institutions.

There is a way, though, for people who can't afford to pay that premium to get access to the same, locally-raised meat, and it is to buy directly from local farms.

Buying whole animals directly from farms means getting all of the meat at a price comparable to the prices of conventional meat, between $3 and $6/pound for all of the cuts. And by networking with neighbors, it is possible to buy whole animals and split it up, ending up with only 10 pounds, or an average of $50 worth of mixed cuts of local meat in the freezer.

I've set up a social-networking site (www.bamcsa.ning.com) that helps people in the Bay Area to do just this, and it also contains guidelines for how to split the cuts of meat up--not butcher them, just divide up the pre-packaged cuts you get from the farm--as well as an extensive listing of nearby farms excited about this method of sales.

There are fine arguments for and against our eating meat, but inaccessibility can't be the final one. There are difficult and creative solutions that must be devised, to be sure, and they require going outside of the big-business-oriented food system we've got now, but the solutions are being developed.

A final point: calling it a meat movement seems to be part of the problem. It is a narrow and silly term devised by Newsweek and other media outlets a little out of the loop. I think this is the meat component of an imperfect, but energetic food movement, that missteps, but tries, nonetheless.

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Lots of grazing land.
Posted by: snowhound on Feb 18, 2009 8:39 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
2/3 of our Earth's dry land is unsuitable for farming. It is primarily the open range, desert and mountainous areas that provide food to grazing animals and that land is currently being put to good use.
Humans are omnivores! It's important for people to eat vegetables, grains, and meat to meet their nutritional needs.

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If it's wasteful
Posted by: shellius on Feb 18, 2009 8:44 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
to feed an animal that is being raised for "meat" because of all the food it consumes, it follows then that it's wrong to feed any animal that eats food. Let's kill all the animals, because they waste what could be OUR food????

The only thing wrong with the "thinking" associated with this article is that it supposes everyone agrees with it.

By all means, lay on the guilt. We don't have enough of that to deal with after 8 years of George Bush, now make us all feel like crap because we like an occasional meal with "meat".

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Here's an idea
Posted by: shellius on Feb 18, 2009 8:47 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think we should give up meat and eat atheists. They won't care.

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» RE: Here's an idea Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Here's an idea Posted by: bornxeyed
Meat is yummy
Posted by: EinMD on Feb 18, 2009 9:01 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I look into my mouth I see pointy teeth for tearing and I see flat teeth for grinding. This means I get to eat any damned thing I want because I have evolved for that purpose.

As far as 'mercy' for animals I don't see the Lion granting mercy as he rips a gazel apart and eats it while it's still alive. I don't see the carcaridon carcarius pausing to make sure the seal it is about to bite in half is living happily.

I'm all for removing unnecessary cruelty from the eating process because I am an evolved consciousness. But I'm not going to kid myself and pretend that eating cow is somehow immoral.

It's a freaking baseball glove and a bunch of dinners at Outback. Nothing more. This doesn't mean we get to beat it with sticks or abuse it for fun. But when it comes down to it - It's a damned cow. It's not a person. It's lower on the food chain. So eat up.

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» RE: Meat is yummy Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Meat is yummy Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: Posted by: Tricia
vegetarian for 32 years, vegan for 9 years now....
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Feb 18, 2009 9:08 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
vegetarian for 32 years, vegan for 9 years now...it is astonishing to me the number of friends and family members i have that think cultures who eat cats and dogs are disgusting but think NOTHING of their beef burger or chicken meal. i have friends and family who CRY over dog/cat abuse but think NOTHING of the fish or turkey or pig on their plate.

bumpersticker on my car: "If you love animals called pets, why do you eat animals called dinner?"

(I'm sure lots of bloggers here will reply "because they taste good.")

This article was the best one I've seen on alternet so far on the benefits of veganism and vegetarianism for the planet, for global food and land justice, for animals, and for health.

And, oh, folks, fish is not a vegetable so if you still eat fish, you are NOT a vegetarian.
Same for chicken.


May all beings be free from suffering. Not just your cats and dogs.

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» RE: Of course it is. Posted by: bornxeyed
» since you bring up cats Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: since you bring up cats Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: since you bring up cats Posted by: bornxeyed
fertilizer?
Posted by: eejay on Feb 18, 2009 9:23 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Veganism has got something going for it from a spiritual / karmic / golden rule perspective but what about fertilizer? If you want to use fertilizer that didn't come from domestic animal shit (pigs, cows, chickens etc) then you have to either use bat guano or fossil fuels. The small farms that you describe nicely close a loop between the animals that fertilize and break up the soil and the vegetables that grow there.

For sure the amount of meat eaten is totally detrimental to the planet but cutting down the amazon to plant soy (for animal feed granted, but also for TOFU!) isn't doing us any favours either.

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» RE: fertilizer? Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: fertilizer? Posted by: organicinspector
» soylent brown Posted by: aislinnluv
» This is wierd Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: fertilizer? Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
Hypocrisy in vegetarians propaganda
Posted by: ecoalex on Feb 18, 2009 9:35 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Grass fed beef saves the environment.The vegeratian movement is hypocrisy, most all eat eggs, fish, use dairy products,all involve the death of the animals involved.They don't eat the flesh, they eat the products from the animals. In time the animals enter the food chain, so the vegetarians are duplicitous.

American's diet? try the world. Name a country where meat isn't eaten. What country eats the most meat? Argentina.

I've tried of eating a true veggie diet. I am a farmer, I work 16 hrs a day hard physical work. No diet I tried kept my weight normal, and gave me the energy I needed for the long days I work.

Eating too much soy is a health threat, it is well documented, if one cares to read about it.

In Argentina, the largest meat consuming country, there is low obesity and heart disease, the meats are grass fed only, the meat is full of Omaga 3, and other beneficial complexes from the grass diet.

You have the right to eat whatever you wish. I don't disparage vegans, vegans should not disparage grass fed meats, or the people that eat them.

The factory farming scheme is unacceptable.

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Fishing and Hunting a perfectly viable solution for many people
Posted by: Illiteratilumen on Feb 18, 2009 9:38 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Alternet trots out another article proclaiming veganism to be the only moral and sustainable way to live. Once again I will point out that there was no mention of hunting and fishing as a sustainable, moral and environmentally responsible way of feeding yourself and your family.

Oh wait I forgot. Guns are bad. I shouldn't be able to own them in the first place. Shooting a deer is bad. It should be left alone so it can live its life in peace and starve to death because of overpopulation or get plowed down by some vegan in a bumper sticker-festooned Volvo. Tricking a trout into eating my fly with a cleverly-placed hook on it is cruel. Fish have rights too, you know. I won't even go into the article Alternet peddled awhile back trying to tell me that I would die of chronic wasting disease and lead poisoning if I ate venison.

One more thing. People might be more open to your message if you didn't, in a nutshell, lump all non-vegans into the category of cruel and ignorant assholes.

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» RE: One shot, one kill... Posted by: bornxeyed
» But not all people. Posted by: bornxeyed
» Sorry Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: But not all people. Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: But not all people. Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: But not all people. Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: But not all people. Posted by: bornxeyed
Woman Dealing with the inability to deal with chemicals, food allergens & more
Posted by: lunamina on Feb 18, 2009 9:46 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This campaign to get people off meat only works for a select group of people. Mainly those who have not been harmed by all the pollutants, chemicals, and other problem in our current environment. I was made ill by exposure to agent orange in Vietnam. I am chemically sensitive and have many, many food allergies, along with physical damage to my body. There is no way I could survive on a meatless diet. Because of my severe allergies I could not survive because I cannot digest ANY of the non-meat sources for B12 and its co-factors. I also cannot digest carbohydrates, which all non-meat sources of protein contain in large amounts. My situation applies to millions, and growing due to war, GMO food let loose in the environment and the buildup of chemicals and heavy metals in our bodies that it cannot get rid of and our bodies build up these toxins until we get sick with cancer, autoimmune diseases, on and on. Making every one vegeterian WILL NOT HELP THIS PROBLEM!

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» RE: ... food allergens & more Posted by: tlCampbell
Please Don't Eat the Animals (part 1)
Posted by: vasumurti on Feb 18, 2009 9:51 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The following quotes, facts, figures, and statistics are excerpted from Please Don't Eat the Animals (2007) by Jennifer Horsman and Jaime Flowers:

"A reduction in beef and other meat consumption is the most potent single act you can take to halt the destruction of our environment and preserve our natural resources. Our choices do matter: What's healthiest for each of us personally is also healthiest for the life support system of our precious, but wounded planet."

---John Robbins, author, Diet for a New America, and President, EarthSave Foundation

One study puts animal waste in the United States to between 2.4 trillion to 3.9 trillion pounds per year. The United states produces 15,000 pounds of manure per person. This is 130 times the amount of waste produced by the entire human population of the United States.

A 1,000-cow dairy can produce approximately 120,000 pounds of waste per day. This is the functional equivalent of the amount of sanitary waste produced by a city of 20,000 people.

A 20,000-chicken factory produces about 2.4 million pounds of manure a year. Poultry factories are one of the fastest growing industries throughout Asia.

One pig excretes nearly three gallons of waste per day, or 2.5 times the average human's daily total. One hog farm with 50,000 pigs in France produces more waste than the entire city of Los Angeles, and some pig farms are much larger.

Factory farm pollution is the primary source of damage to coastal waters in North and South America, Europe, and Asia. Scientists report that over sixty percent of the coastal waters in the United States are moderately to severely degraded from factory farm nutrient pollution. This pollution creates oxygen-depleted dead zones, which are huge areas of ocean devoid of aquatic life.

Meat production causes deforestation, which then contributes to global warming. Trees convert carbon dioxide into oxygen, and the destruction of forests around the globe to make room for grazing cattle furthers the greenhouse effect. The Food and Agricultural Organization of the United Nations reports that the annual rate of tropical deforestation has increased from 9 million hectares in 1980 to 16.8 million hectares in 1990, and unfortunately, this destruction has accelerated since then. By 1994, a staggering 200 million hectares of rainforest had been destroyed in South America just for cattle.

"The impact of countless hooves and mouths over the years has done more to alter the type of vegetation and land forms of the West than all the water projects, strip mines, power plants, freeways, and sub-division developments combined."

---Philip Fradkin, in Audubon, National Audubon Society, New York

Agricultural meat production generates air pollution. As manure decomposes, it releases over 400 volatile organic compounds, many of which are extremely harmful to human health. Nitrogen, a major by-product of animal wastes, changes to ammonia as it escapes into the air, and this is a major source of acid rain. Worldwide, livestock produce over 30 million tons of ammonia. Hydrogen sulfide, another chemical released from animal waste, can cause irreversible neurological damage, even at low levels.

The world Conservation Union lists over 1,000 different fish species that are threatened or endangered. According to the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) estimate, over 60 percent of the world's fish species are either fully exploited or depleted. Commercial fish populations of cod, hake, haddock, and flounder have fallen by as much as 95 percent in the north Atlantic.

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Please Don't Eat the Animals (part 2)
Posted by: vasumurti on Feb 18, 2009 9:53 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The following quotes, facts, figures, and statistics are excerpted from Please Don't Eat the Animals (2007) by Jennifer Horsman and Jaime Flowers:

The United States and Europe lose several billion tons of topsoil each year from cropland and grazing land, and 84 percent of this erosion is caused by livestock agriculture. While this soil is theoretically a renewable resource, we are losing soil at a much faster rate than we are able to replace it. It takes 100 to 500 years to produce one inch of topsoil, but due to livestock grazing and feeding, farming areas can lose up to six inches of topsoil a year.

Livestock production affects a startling 70 to 85 percent of the land area of the United States, United Kingdom, and the European Union. That includes the public and private rangeland used for grazing, as well as the land used to produce the crops that feed the animals. By comparison, urbanization only affects 3 percent of the United States land area, slightly larger for the European Union and the United Kingdom. Meat production consumes the world's land resources.

Half of all fresh water worldwide is used for thirsty livestock. Producing eight ounces of beef requires an unimaginable 25,000 liters of water, or the water necessary for one pound of steak equals the water consumption of the average household for a year.

The United States government spends $10 million each year to kill an estimated 100,000 wild animals, including coyotes, foxes, bobcats, badgers, bears, and mountain lions just to placate ranchers who don't want these animals killing their livestock. The cost far outweighs the damage to livestock that these predators cause.

The Worldwatch Institute estimates one pound of steak from a steer raised in a feedlot costs: five pounds of grain, a whopping 2,500 gallons of water, the energy equivalent of a gallon of gasoline, and about 34 pounds of topsoil.

33 percent of our nation's raw materials and fossil fuels go into livestock destined for slaughter. In a vegan economy, only 2 percent of our resources will go to the production of food.

"It seems disingenuous for the intellectual elite of the first world to dwell on the subject of too many babies being born in the second- and third-world nations while virtually ignoring the overpopulation of cattle and the realities of a food chain that robs the poor of sustenance to feed the rich a steady diet of grain-fed meat."

---Jeremy Rifkin, author, Beyond Beef: The Rise and Fall of the Cattle Culture, and president of the Greenhouse Crisis Foundation

Lester Brown of the Overseas Development Council calculates that if Americans reduced their meat consumption by only 10 percent per year, it would free at least 12 million tons of grain for human consumption--or enough to feed 60 million people.

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blah blah blah
Posted by: AdamG on Feb 18, 2009 10:48 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's quite easy to pontiicate upon such things as the ethics of eating (and farmig by extension) will sitting in an offie in Oakland. It's quite another to actually put these things in practice.

For the record, I am one of those suppliers of happy meat. For the record, I also raise veg and fruit for a csa and local markets. If it weren't for my raising of livestock, I would have to depend upon commercially available compost or much more mechinasation to maintain the soil fertility. Besides the fact that I eat meat and don't trust what is readily available in supermarkets, the animals contribute to maintaining the soils fertility and cutting down on the gallons of diesel I burn in the tractor primarily by harvesting and concentrating solar energy in the form of grass that I then return to the soil.

Another fact the author overlooks is the economic contribution of happy meat. By buying local food, weather animal or vegetable, you keep wealth within your community, eventually helping to raise people's standard of living. If you buy standard fair grown overseas, whether animal or vegetable, your community is eventually economically bled dry by the industrial system.

Of all the people and things to attack, I'm not sure small, local farmers are the one deserving of our wrath. I guess the author prefers the liberal, progressive circular firing squad over actually getting anything done.

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» RE: blah blah blah Posted by: ffrf.org
» RE: blah blah blah Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: blah blah blah Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: blah blah blah Posted by: ffrf.org
» RE: blah blah blah Posted by: bornxeyed
nutritional arguments (part 1)
Posted by: vasumurti on Feb 18, 2009 11:01 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The following quotes, facts, figures, and statistics are excerpted from Please Don't Eat the Animals (2007) by Jennifer Horsman and Jaime Flowers:

"Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."

---Albert Einstein

"Each year, the meat industrial complex abuses and butchers nearly 9 billion cows, pigs, sheep, turkeys, chickens, and other innocent, feeling animals just for the enjoyment of consumers. Each year, nearly 1.5 million of these consumers are crippled and killed prematurely by heart failure, cancer, stroke, and other chronic diseases that have been linked conclusively with the consumption of these animals. Each year, millions of other animals are abused and sacrificed in a vain search for a 'magic pill' that would vanquish these largely self-inflicted diseases."

---Alex Hershaft, PhD, president, Farm Animal Reform Movement

When analyzing 8,300 deaths in the United States, United Kingdom, and Germany among 76,000 men and women in five different, large studies, researchers concluded that vegetarians have a 24 percent reduction in death from heart disease.

Similarly, in the famous Oxford Vegetarian Study, where 6,000 vegetarians were compared with 5,000 meat-eaters over nearly two decades, scientists found that the rate of death from heart disease was 28 percent lower in vegetarians than in meat-eaters.

One study analyzed eighty scientific studies in leading medical journals. The analysis found that vegetarians had lower blood pressure, and were less likely to suffer from stroke, heart attack, and kidney failure.

A large German study of nearly 2,000 vegetarians found that deaths from heart disease were reduced by over one-third, and that heart disease itself was far less than that of the general population.

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nutritional arguments (part 2)
Posted by: vasumurti on Feb 18, 2009 11:02 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The following quotes, facts, figures, and statistics are excerpted from Please Don't Eat the Animals (2007) by Jennifer Horsman and Jaime Flowers:

Another large study examined the coronary artery disease risk of young adults ages 18 to 30 and vegetarians were found to have much higher levels of cardiovascular fitness and a greatly reduced risk of heart disease.

"The process of gradual blocking of the coronary arteries begins not in adulthood but in childhood...and the main cause of this arteriosclerosis is the steadily increasing amount of fat in the American diet, particularly saturated animal fats such as those found in meat, chicken, milk and cheeses. If there was another disease that caused half a million deaths a year, you can be sure that the public would be acutely aware of the danger, and that the cure or prevention would be universally practiced."

---Dr. Benjamin Spock, author, child expert

"I don't understand why asking people to eat a well-balanced vegetarian diet is considered drastic, while it is medically conservative to cut people open and put them on powerful cholesterol-lowering drugs for the rest of their lives."

---Dr. Dean Ornish, author, Reversing Heart Disease

Stroke is the third leading cause of death behind heart disease and cancer. Vegetarians have a 20 to 30 percent reduced risk of having a stroke. Stroke, like heart disease, is associated with diets high in saturated fats, and the vegetarian diet is naturally low in these fats.

The Oxford Vegetarian Study found cancer mortality to be 39 percent lower among vegetarians when compared with meat-eaters. The European Prospective Investigation of Cancer found vegetarians suffer 40 percent fewer cancers than the general population.

Studies have shown that decreasing a woman's animal fat intake can reduce the chances that she will die from breast cancer. A large-scale, long-term study in the Netherlands found a powerful connection between the amount of animal fat consumed and the rate of prostate cancer. A review of a dozen studies found dietary fat strongly correlated with prostate cancer.

Ovarian, uterine, and endometrial cancers have all been shown to be strongly correlated to the amount of animal fat in one's diet, and vegetarian women have significantly lower rates of these cancers.

"The beef industry has contributed to more American deaths than all the wars of this century, all the natural disasters, and all automobile accidents combined."

---Dr. Neal Barnard, Executive Director, Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine

"Vegetarians have the best diet. They have the lowest rate of coronary disease of any group in the country. They have a fraction of our heart attack rate and they have only 40 percent of our cancer rate."

---William Castelli, MD, Director, Framingham Heart Study

"Human beings are not natural carnivores. When we kill animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings, who are natural herbivores."

---Dr. William Roberts, editor-in-chief, American Journal of Cardiology

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Not gonna be a vegan nor a Evangelical
Posted by: Purple Girl on Feb 18, 2009 11:29 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seems these tow groups are working out of the same playbook. Get real, you are not going to convert everyone, so focus on your real goals.
Vegans abhor slaughter of animals, yet think nothing of skinning a carrot -FYI it's alive too and has been shown to react to dicing, in fact when another is being diced. So should we begin ingesting dirt instead- Oops that has microbials, another living entity.
It is as illogical as the Evangelicals who think just because our Founding Documents and pledge use the word 'God' we are a Christian nation- God is not the Sole property of the evangelical movement, they do not say Christ. And as far as their abhorring Abortion, why do they consistently block all efforts to reduce unwanted pregnacies by the use of conctrceptive and education?
To both Groups I say there is always the freedom of Choice. I as a Species innately designed to be an omnivore choose to abide by the biology of my bodies requirements. WE do not possess the protein generating microbial laden Cecum of herbivores.Either Gods great Design or Evolution did not provide us with that protein producing organ.Ever notice our Eyes are also set forward like other meat eaters? Notice those Canines? Don't tell me you are a nature lover when you deny your own physical makeup.Should we be demanding lions eat salads?
What does set my hair on fire is the mass prodcution of food animals- scooping them up in front end loaders to push into the slaughter line. Or chickens being samshed against the walls, or stacked 5 to 1'x1' cage- debeaked and declawed. Or millions of pounds of meat being thrown out daily in over stocked grocery stores who must have every cut imaginable at consumers finger tips.I'm concerned aobut the concentratin of methane gas being produced on too few feed lots farms acres.Mass amounts of manure seeping into the water table, lakes and rivers. The spread of contagious disease, like mad cow from over populated livestock facilties. Food Borne illness being spread far and wide because of mass distribution.Too many 9-5ers who know nothing about animal husbandry or safe food handling procedures. Graduate from our most prestigous Ag Schools lossing opportunities to cheap, unskilled shadow day laborers- who are also treated no better than the live stock they care for.
Big Ag has cost this country dearly, in jobs, in health, in GDP and in lives (human & animal).So don't eat meat, that's your Choice- I'm not going to force you, just as I would not force you to have an abortion either.But do not attempt to take away my right to adhere to a biological design I nothing to do with. And I have just as much right to claim I am an animal advocate, I just advocate we do so in the most humane and safe way possible, something our fellow omnivores (and carnivores) do not have the abilty to address and rectify.If we are unwilling to address the needs of us as stewards, then how can we be expected to address the innate needs of our charges.I would not try to sustain a lion on a salad, as I would not expect to sustain a Horse on a slab of beef.
let's be honest how many Vegans are Anemic? I can often tell a vegatrian because they are pale and have a rather Ashy look totheir skin tone. Also they lack muscle development and tone.Having some as Coworkers they are the ones who are constantly tired and often mildly sick with a cold.Granted same can be said for some of my overweight meat eating co workers.
so Stop beting your self righteous drums, they are falling on the same unpersuaded deaf ears the evangelicals get.PETA's outrageous antics create more resistance to real change, just like Hagee' soutlandish commments gives Christianity a bad name.

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A wierd coupling--and Alternet's latest obsession
Posted by: frantic1971 on Feb 18, 2009 12:21 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have (and still) find something really wierd and hard-to-swallow about attempts to couple meat eating with a lack of compassion or moral purity.

Alternet seems obsessed with both food and sex lately. Just be glad that you live where you have the opportunity to enjoy BOTH.

I think Alternet needs to dump some people on staff who seem to have a "mission" in life. Get back to the Progressive issues that matter--like the economy.

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» P.T. Barnum Posted by: frantic1971
Against War and Poverty Before Meat Issue
Posted by: drricklippin on Feb 18, 2009 12:33 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I believe meat eating is

- unhealthy
- damages our environment

I know it's all connected but as for me I've got a few other prioroities like war and poverty

Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa

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CH
Posted by: helg0061 on Feb 18, 2009 12:41 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am thankful for any effort to figure out how to build an ethical food system, including this piece. I only wish it were not so reliant on false choices. The argument that small farms with better animal husbandry practices are elitist because they don't support our current level of meat consumption simply doesn't make sense. A more ethical, responsible role for meat in our food system would be much smaller than it is. Of course responsible husbandry methods could never feed all of us meat as a staple. Meanwhile, more expensive (or, not artifically cheap) meat means we eat less of it, and more of other foods. This moves the system in the direction of a vegan's goals, but this article's all-or-nothing perspective would rather have nothing than something, apparently.

Real change that will support better animal and human treatment in our food system will happen. It IS happening, but by degrees -- extreme changes (like the switch to veganism) simply aren't sustainable for most people, especially when for many of us there's so little food choice. The industrial food giants are raking in the subsidies while a full third of US citizens are at risk for type 2 diabetes because a lack of access to affordable unprocessed foods of ANY kind. Shouldn't we choose our battles more carefully, and work to reign in the big food disasters before attacking those food producers who are actually trying to do something sustainable and right?

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"pefect vs. good" conflicts divide progressives yet again.
Posted by: antiapathy on Feb 18, 2009 12:50 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course vegans don't like "new meat". But is it better to continue with the status quo? Or does it make sense to get people to start thinking about where their meat comes from, and what impact it has on the world? The authors seem to be arguing that we can't sustain our current levels of meat consumption if we switch to happy meat and therefore it is a pointless endeavor. There is no middle ground; either things stay the same with our high levels of meat consumption, or everyone suddenly realizes meat is evil and becomes vegan.

I would argue that it is better to educate people about the environmental and social consequences of consuming industrially-produced meat. Hopefully it may lead to people consuming less meat, and looking at where that meat comes from.

This is another case of the perfect being the enemy of the good. For vegan idealogues, there is no point in promoting "happy meat" because it is still 100% pure USDA evil. As an ardent progressive, I suffer with choices like this all the time. Why bother supporting spineless Democrats when we could vote for a true progressive party like the Greens?

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Actually...
Posted by: LeeAnnG on Feb 18, 2009 1:26 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
what I have noticed is an onslaught of articles by self-righteous pontificating vegetarians and vegans letting the rest of us know how immoral we all are.

I've often wondered myself at the nature of life and how some creatures die so others can live. It's one of the things that makes me laugh when I hear "intelligent design." What benevolent, omnipotent, omniscient creator would intentionally design a world in which some animals are solely equipped to eat others, necessitating some very cruel and violent deaths?

So, are lions, wolves, eagles, and other carnivores all on the "immoral" list, too? Maybe in a perfect world, all creatures great and small could live on plants. (And how do we know what plants feel anyhow?)

Life is cruel, but humans who raise and slaughter their meat are among the least cruel among carnivores and omnivores. I kill mice when they get in my house, but I don't PLAY with them and torment them the way cats do. Ever watch Planet Earth and see how other animals kill? It's not pleasant, but it's a fact of life.

I am quite aware that eating too much meat is not beneficial to the enviroment and also that eating fruits and vegetables leads to a healthy body. But, in fact, human beings are omnivores. And it's absolutely absurd to say that for the first time an entire society relies on meat. What about Eskimos? Where did they get their veggies from?

Early humans were HUNTERS and gatherers, not farmers and gatherers. Those spears depicted in cave paintings weren't designed to stalk the wild asparagus.

It's not like the herbivores are completely innocent, either.

Here in West Virginia where I live, the deer population rivals that of the human population. They are everywhere including cities. They raid people's gardens, eating vegetables and flowers alike. I gave some coneflowers to a friend who lives in Parkersburg, and the deer got all of them. I actually know a woman whose flowers were eaten by deer, so she moved her planters to her porch. The deer came up on the porch to eat them. Finally, in exasperation, she got plastic flowers and (this is a true story), the deer munched on the plastic ones.

There are no natural predators to maintain a viable deer population level, so they multiply. They wander out onto the backroads and freeways where they mutilate people's cars on a daily basis. I don't believe I personally know anyone who lives here and has not had a car damaged by deer.

I gotta tell ya - I am THRILLED when someone wants to hunt deer on my land. And I'm just as thrilled to accept the meat when offered.

Last year, chipmunks ate all my strawberries, which are in a raised planter right in front of my home. Rabbits got much of my cabbage and topped off some of my carrots and redbeets, in spite of a chain link fence surrounding it. Racoons devastated my apple trees. Deer jump my yard fence and nip my flowers, and I've already found the tops chewed off my crocuses this year.

I will have to go to great lengths to keep my strawberries chipmunk free, put a solid wood fence around the entire bottom perimeter of my vegetable garden, find a good way to protect my fruit trees, and stop whatever is eating my crocuses.

I've got nothing against the animals, and they have to eat, too. I try to plant enough to share, but last year was really bad.

There really is a food chain, and part of that chain for human beings is meat, no matter how indignant it makes the holier-than-thou vegetarians.

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a progressive cause
Posted by: vasumurti on Feb 18, 2009 1:42 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A vegetarian since 1982, I attended my first anti-vivisection protest in the spring of 1985, as anti-apartheid demonstrations rocked the UC San Diego campus. I first got interested in promoting vegetarianism in mainstream society after reading John Robbins' Diet for a New America (1987). Nominated for a Pulitzer Prize, it makes veganism seem as reasonable and mainstream as recycling.

Half the water consumed in the U.S. goes to irrigate land growing feed and fodder for livestock. Huge amounts of water are used to wash away their excrement. U.S. livestock produce 20 times as much excrement as does the entire human population; creating sewage which is 10 to several hundred times more concentrated than raw domestic sewage. Animal wastes cause 10 times more water pollution than does the U.S. human population; the meat industry causes 3 times as much harmful organic water pollution than the rest of the nation's industries combined. Meat producers, the number one industrial polluters in our nation, contribute to half the water pollution in the United States.

Joanna Macy, author of Despair and Personal Power in the Nuclear Age, depicts the advantages of America moving towards a vegan diet in her foreword to Diet for a New America:

"The effects on our physical health are immediate. The incidence of cancer and heart attack, the nation's biggest killers, drops precipitously. So do many other diseases now demonstrably and causally linked to consumption of animal proteins and fats, such as osteoporosis...

"The social, ecological, and economic consequences, as we Americans turn away from animal food products, are equally remarkable. We find that the grain we previously fed to fatten livestock can now feed five times the U.S. population; so we have become able to alleviate malnutrition and hunger on a worldwide scale...

"The great forests of the world, that we had been decimating for grazing purposes, begin to grow again. Oxygen-producing trees are no longer sacrificed for cholesterol-producing steaks.

"The water crisis eases. As we stop raising and grinding up cattle for hamburgers, we discover that ranching and farm factories had been the major drain on our water resources. The amount now available for irrigation and hydroelectric power doubles. Meanwhile, the change in diet frees over 90% of the fossil fuel previously used to produce food. With this liberation of water energy and fossil fuel energy, our reliance on oil imports declines, as does the rationale for building nuclear power plants..."

Joanna Macy admits, "This scenario is wildly, absurdly utopian. It is also clearly the way we are meant to live, built to live." What could possibly make it a reality? "It is this very book!"

Paul McCartney says, "If anyone wants to save the planet, all they have to do is stop eating meat. That's the single most important thing you could do. It's staggering when you think about it. Vegetarianism takes care of so many things in one shot: ecology, famine, cruelty. Let's do it! Linda was right. Going veggie is the single best idea for the new century."

Roberta Kalechofsky of Jews for Animal Rights similarly says:

"Merely by ceasing to eat meat
Merely by practicing restraint
We have the power to end a painful industry

"We do not have to bear arms to end this evil
We do not have to contribute money
We do not have to sit in jail or go to
meetings or demonstrations or
engage in acts of civil disobedience

"Most often, the act of repairing the world,
of healing mortal wounds,
is left to heroes and tzaddikim (holy people)
Saints and people of unusual discipline

"But here is an action every mortal can
perform--surely it is not too difficult!"

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Where does Meat come from?
Posted by: Archie1954 on Feb 18, 2009 1:54 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No one is mentioning the potential for growing just the steaks you want for dinner or the rack of lamb, etc. With all of the genetic work that is being done it is possible right now I believe to grow just the meat, not the animal in a lab. If this is so the moral and ethical questions may go by the wayside together with the environmental ones.

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We Should Work on Artificial Meat
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com on Feb 18, 2009 1:59 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Science organizations having been working on creating cloned meat in a laboratory that has the same texture has hamburger.

With most people eating hamburger rather than steak or veal that could significantly reduce the amount of cows needed.


We should be working on a scientific way to solve the problem. You are not going to get people to give up meat unless it costs a fortune.

But if people had a choice between lab grown meat and killing cows for meat and blind taste tests showed it tasted the same, I think many if not most people would switch to lab grown meat.

I heard PETA was offering a $1 million price to the first lab or company that comes up with a lab grown meat replacement.

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human anatomy shows we're frugivorous (part 1)
Posted by: vasumurti on Feb 18, 2009 2:04 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The frugivores (gorillas, chimpanzees and other primates) have intestinal tracts twelve times the length of the body, clawless hands and alkaline urine and saliva. Their diet is mostly vegetarian, occasionally supplemented with carrion, insects, etc.

Flesh-eating animals lap water with their tongue, whereas vegetarian animals imbibe liquids by a suction process. Humans are classified as primates and are thus frugivores possessing a set of completely herbivorous teeth. Proponents of the theory that humans should be classified as omnivores note that human beings do, in fact, possess a modified form of canine teeth. However, these so-called "canine teeth" are much more prominent in animals that traditionally never eat flesh, such as apes, camels, and the male musk deer.

It must also be noted that the shape, length and hardness of these so-called "canine teeth" can hardly be compared to those of true carnivorous animals. A principle factor in determining the hardness of teeth is the phosphate of magnesia content. Human teeth usually contain 1.5 percent phosphate of magnesia, whereas the teeth of carnivores are composed of nearly 5 percent phosphate of magnesia. It is for this reason they are able to break through the bones of their prey, and reach the nutritious marrow.

Zoologist Desmond Morris makes a case for vegetarianism in his 1967 book, The Naked Ape: "It could be argued that, since our primate ancestors had to make do without a major meat component in their diets we should be able to do the same. We were driven to become flesh eaters only by environmental circumstances, and now that we have the environment under control, with elaborately cultivated crops at our disposal, we might be expected to return to our ancient feeding patterns."

In The Human Story, edited by Marie-Louise Makris (1985), we read: "...recent studies of their teeth reveal that the Australopithecines did not eat meat as a regular part of their diet, and were mainly peaceful vegetarians, rather like chimps or gorillas. The popular image of the murderous ape is now as extinct as the Australopithecines themselves."

Dr. Gordon Latto notes that carnivorous and omnivorous animals can only move their jaws up and down, and that omnivores "have a blunt tooth, a sharp tooth, a blunt tooth, a sharp tooth--showing that they were destined to deal both with flesh foods from the animal kingdom and foods from the vegetable kingdom...

"Carnivorous mammals and omnivorous mammals cannot perspire except at the extremity of the limbs and the tip of the nose; man perspires all over the body. Finally, our instincts; the carnivorous mammal (which first of all has claws and canine teeth) is capable of tearing flesh asunder, whereas man only partakes of flesh foods after they have been camouflaged by cooking and by condiments.

"Man instinctively is not carnivorous," explains Dr. Latto. "...he takes the flesh food after somebody else has killed it, and after it has been cooked and camouflaged with certain condiments. Whereas to pick an apple off a tree or eat some grain or a carrot is a natural thing to do; people enjoy doing it; they don't feel disturbed by it. But to see these animals being slaughtered does affect people; it offends them. Even the toughest of people are affected by the sights in the slaughterhouse.

"I remember taking some medical students into a slaughterhouse. They were about as hardened people as you could meet. After seeing the animals slaughtered that day in the slaughterhouse, not one of them could eat the meat that evening."

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human anatomy shows we're frugivorous (part 2)
Posted by: vasumurti on Feb 18, 2009 2:09 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Author R.H. Weldon writes in No Animal Food:

"The gorge of a cat, for instance, will rise at the smell of a mouse or a piece of raw flesh, but not at the aroma of fruit. If a man can take delight in pouncing upon a bird, tear its still living body apart with his teeth, sucking the warm blood, one might infer that Nature had provided him with a carnivorous instinct, but the very thought of doing such a thing makes him shudder. On the other hand, a bunch of luscious grapes makes his mouth water, and even in the absence of hunger, he will eat fruit to gratify taste."

As far back as 1961, the Journal of the American Medical Association reported that: "A vegetarian diet can prevent 97% of our coronary occlusions."

More recently, William S. Collens and Gerald B. Dobkens concluded:

"Examination of the dental structure of modern man reveals that he possesses all the features of a strictly herbivorous animal. While designed to subsist on vegetarian foods, he has perverted his dietary habits to accept food of the carnivore. It is postulated that man cannot handle carnivorous foods like the carnivore. Herein may lie the basis for the high incidence of arteriosclerotic disease."

Keith Akers in A Vegetarian Sourcebook (1983), responds to the argument that killing animals for food is natural:

"This is quite an admirable argument. It explains practically everything; why we do not eat each other, except under conditions of unusual stress; why we may kill certain other animals (they are, in the order of nature, food for us); even why we should be kind to pets and try to help miscellaneous wildlife (they are not naturally our food). There are some problems with the idea that an order of nature determines which species are food for us, but an examination of human history indicates the broad outlines of just such an order, though inhibitions against eating certain species may vary from culture to culture.

"The main problem with this argument is that it does not justify the practice of meat-eating or animal husbandry as we know it today; it justifies hunting. The distinction between hunting and animal husbandry probably seems rather fine to the man in the street, or even to your typical rule-utilitarian moral philosopher. The distinction, however, is obvious to an ecologist. If one defends killing on the grounds that it occurs in nature, then one is defending the practice as it occurs in nature.

"When one species of animal preys on another in nature, it only preys on a very small proportion of the total species population. Obviously, the predator species relies on its prey for its continued survival. Therefore, to wipe the prey species out through overhunting would be fatal. In practice, members of such predator species rely on such strategies as territoriality to restrict overhunting and to insure the continued existence of its food supply.

"Moreover, only the weakest members of the prey species are the predator's victims: the feeble, the sick, the lame, or the young accidentally separated from the fold. The life of the typical zebra is usually placid, even in lion country; this kind of violence is the exception in nature, not the rule.

"As it exists in the wild, hunting is the preying upon isolated members of an animal herd. Animal husbandry is the nearly complete annihilation of an animal herd. In nature, this kind of slaughter does not exist. The philosopher is free to argue that there is no moral difference between hunting and slaughter, but he cannot invoke nature as a defense of this idea.

"Why are hunters, not butchers, most frequently taken to task by the larger community for their killing of animals?...the larger community is hypocritical to object to hunting when it consumes the flesh of domesticated animals."

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malthusian nonsense
Posted by: hooka on Feb 18, 2009 2:09 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
these authors, like most self righteous vegans, are hard core malthusians. there is no "global food crisis". there is plenty of food for everyone. the problem is capitalism. food rots on store shelves while the poor starve in the streets. capitalists manufacture scarcity to drive profits. malthus was a capitalist apologist. change the system and drop the hysterical moralizing. veganism is unhealthy, bourgeois, apolitical nonsense. cholesterol is good for you. mainstream medicine is as corrupt as the mainstream media. please do research. raw milk, butter, and revolution!

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human anatomy shows we're frugivorous (part 3)
Posted by: vasumurti on Feb 18, 2009 2:10 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In his 1975 book, Animal Liberation, Australian philosopher Peter Singer writes:

"Killing an animal is in itself a troubling act. It has been said that if we had to kill our own meat we would all be vegetarians. There may be exceptions to that general rule, but it is true that most people prefer not to inquire into the killing of the animals they eat.

"Very few people ever visit a slaughterhouse; and films of slaughterhouse operations are rarely shown on television...Yet those who, by their purchases, require animals to be killed have no right to be shielded from this or any other aspect of the production of the meat they buy.

"If it is distasteful for humans to think about, what can it be like for the animals to experience it?"

Peter Singer concludes in Animal Liberation that "by ceasing to rear and kill animals for food, we can make extra food available for humans that, properly distributed, it would eliminate starvation and malnutrition from this planet. Animal Liberation is Human Liberation, too."

Dr. Milton Mills' "The Comparative Anatomy of Eating,"

www.vegsource.com/veg_faq/comparative.htm

and the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine,

www.pcrm.org ,

argue persuasively that the optimal diet for humanity is a vegan diet. However, even if humans really are omnivores and not frugivores, my friend Mareechi Duvvuuri (another Hindu-American!) who once studied sports medicine, points out that the diet of natural omnivores is mostly (80 percent) plant food.

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"...I'm a Level 5 vegan...
Posted by: tHetrIp on Feb 18, 2009 3:11 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't eat anything that cast a shadow."
Seriously though, I don't plan on giving up meat in my lifetime - colonic washes notwithstanding, but if the cost of doing business humanely were to make meat more of a luxury item, I'd have no objection.

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Vegetarian registered nurse
Posted by: la nurse on Feb 18, 2009 3:23 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am almost vegan, eating little dairy or eggs. I've read some of the China Study which reports that those who eat the least meat, often no meat have fewer cancers, heart disease and several other illnesses. Many of my patients are patients because they have believed the myth that they can't get protein apart from meat and that the food pyramid is a healthy and appropriate way to eat. The B 12 discussion is inaccurate. B 12 may be found in brewers yeast and few vegans develop any deficiency, no more than the general population. The idea that meat eating can be justified or promoted on the basis of some kind of anthropological argument is ridiculous. At this point, from what I've read, I believe people who eat meat are lazy and foolish creatures of habit easily duped by propaganda promulgated by industry. And their health will suffer for this failure of reason and ignorant food consumption. But I don't argue with my patients. What's the point. People defend unreasonable behavior far more vociferously than they do well informed and well considered behavior.

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» it's nutritional yeast mom Posted by: ecofriendlynet
People hate people and animals...
Posted by: Snurpa on Feb 18, 2009 4:10 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is little reason to hope that people are going to include animals in the circle of protection when most of the human population is excluded.

Luckily the cruelty to animals and environmental degradation problem is going to be partially solved by the ever increasing price of meat.

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Global Hunger
Posted by: vasumurti on Feb 18, 2009 4:29 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Global hunger could be directly attributed to meat-eating."

---Chrissie Hynde

Half the world's population does not receive an adequate amount of food to eat. Ten to twenty million die annually of hunger and its effects. The Institute for Food and Development Policy reports that, "Forty thousand children starve to death on this planet every day," or one child every two seconds.

The livestock population of the United States today consumes enough grain and soybeans to feed over five times the entire human population of the country. We feed these animals over 80% of the corn we grow, and over 95% of the oats. Less than half the harvested agricultural acreage in the United States is used to grow food for people. Most of it is used to grow livestock feed.

Ronald J. Sider of Evangelicals for Social Action, in his 1977 book, Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger, pointed out that 220 million Americans were eating enough food (largely because of the high consumption of grain-fed livestock) to feed over one billion people in the poorer countries.

The world's cattle alone, not to mention pigs and chickens, consume a quantity of food equal to the caloric needs of 8.7 billion people. It takes 16 pounds of grain to produce one pound of beef. According to Department of Agriculture statistics, one acre of land can grow 20,000 pounds of potatoes. That same acre of land, if used to grow cattlefeed, can produce less than 165 pounds of beef.

In his book, The Hungry Planet, Georg Bergstrom points out that protein-starved underdeveloped nations export more protein to wealthy nations than they receive. He calls this "the protein swindle." Ninety percent of the world's fish meal catch, for example, is exported to rich countries. One-third of Africa's peanut crop winds up in the stomachs of European livestock. Half the world's cereal crop is fed to livestock and the United States annually imports one million tons of vegetable protein from Third World nations--just to feed its farm animals.

Bergstrom writes: "Sometimes one wonders how many Americans and Western Europeans have grasped the fact that quite a few of their beef steaks, quarts of milk, dozens of eggs, and hundreds of broilers are the result, not of their agriculture, but of the approximately two million metric tons of protein, mostly of high quality, which astute Western businessmen channel away from the needy and hungry."

Jeremy Rifkin, author of a dozen influential books and President of the Foundation on Economic Trends, writes in his 1992 bestseller Beyond Beef:

"Cattle and other livestock are devouring much of the grain produced on the planet. It need be emphasized that this is a new phenomenon, unlike anything ever experienced before.

"Contrary to popular belief, the poor are getting poorer each year...Increased poverty has meant increased malnutrition. On the African continent, nearly one in every four human beings is malnourished. In Latin America, nearly one out of every seven people goes to bed hungry each night. In Asia and the Pacific, 28 percent of the people border on starvation, experiencing the gnawing pain of a perpetual hunger."

"In the Near East, one in ten people is underfed. Chronic hunger now affects upwards of 1.3 billion people, according to the world Health Organization--a statistic all the more striking in a world where one third of all the grain produced is being fed to cattle and other livestock. Never before in human history has such a large percentage of our species--nearly 25 percent--been malnourished.

"The transition of world agriculture from food grain to feed grains represents an...evil whose consequences may be far greater and longer lasting than any past examples of violence inflicted by men against their fellow human beings."

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Farming
Posted by: esbenner on Feb 18, 2009 5:43 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What I find interesting about this whole discussion is the fact that many of the vegeterians I've talked to have never actually farmed. This isn't about attacking a person's credibility by attacking their character it is about pointing out that some experience actually on a farm, actually on a bunch of different types of farms (since farming is far from monolothic), can open one's eyes to whole new reams of experiential knowledge. For instance some farming land just isn't good for veggies or grains. The only thing that practically makes sense to have on those plots of land are animals. Also, there are extremely innovative ways of incorporating animals into mixed vegetable production so as to help improve soil life, profitability of the farm, and the health of the vegetables.

Let's also not forget that distribution of the food we have available in the world now is the primary issue. Remember that in the potato famine in Ireland cereal crops were being exported to England while the poor died because they couldn't afford to pay for the crops they grew. The same was true during the famine in Ethiopia, grain was exported while people starved to death. Before vegeterians and vegans lecture us small scale farmers on how to farm our land I think they should probably work on the distribution issues first.

As for the moral arguments, I don't like to place myself above nature by saying we've evolved to the point where we know better, than for instance, a carnivore like a big cat or a fellow omnivore like a pig. I'd rather participate in the natural ecosystem of the land then place myself above it. Native americans did this very successfully thanking animals for the life they were to take and feeling sorrow but seeing it as a tragic necessity.

I think the crux of the matter though and I think the point the authors completely miss is that of course local, ethically raised meat is going to be more expensive. The consumer is asked to pay more because we are working on internalising, economically, the price that in the past was externalized (and I think we should internalize the emotional price as well - not in a martyrdome sense but in a holistic, healthy gracious sense). So the natural thing to do is to eat less meat. Health professionals, environmentalists, activists, they all agree on that point. We need to eat less meat - period. And the meat we do eat shouldn't be "happy meat," it should come from a farmer we know and trust. Difficult for an inner city person perhaps, but doable with the rise of CSAs, the new farmer's markets, and co-ops.

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Processed Meats
Posted by: tony_opmoc on Feb 18, 2009 5:47 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Kasabian Processed Beats

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it still makes sense to eat lower on the food chain
Posted by: vasumurti on Feb 18, 2009 6:33 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Significant environmental damage results from livestock agriculture, often driving many other species into extinction. The existence of dodo birds was first recorded in the early 1500s by Portuguese Sailors. The dodo, which weighed about 50 pounds, was incapable of defending itself and could not flee from its enemies, since it lacked the ability to fly. Large numbers of these birds were killed by human beings for food. Additionally, pigs that were brought to the islands destroyed a significant portion of the dodos' eggs, creating a severe decline in the dodo population. The species became extinct by the 18th century.

The Steller's sea cow once inhabited the coastal waters of the Commander Islands in the Bering Sea. Russian Sealers, who were the first to record the existence of these creatures in 1741, estimated the entire population to be about 5,000. Their meat was considered a delicacy by Russian sealers, who decimated the entire species by 1768.

The Labrador duck has been extinct since 1875. This species formerly inhabited the coastal regions of northeastern Canada. The extinction of the passenger pigeon was caused by the American westward expansion in the second half of the 19th century. As passenger pigeons became a popular food item, the numbers of this species rapidly diminished. Millions were slaughtered each year and shipped by railway cars to be sold in city markets. Another bird to become extinct because of its use as food was the heath hen, which became extinct about 1932.

The pacific sardine lives along the coasts of North America from Alaska to southern California. Sardines, once a major part of the California fishing industry, are now considered to be "commercially extinct." Another species classified as "commercially extinct" is the New England haddock. Ecologists have also been concerned about the significant reduction in finfish, the Atlantic bluefin tuna, Lake Erie cisco, and blackfins that inhabit Lakes Huron and Michigan.

Over 200,000 porpoises are killed every year by fishermen seeking tuna in the Pacific. Sea turtles are similarly killed in Caribbean shrimp operations. Some animals are killed because, as carnivores, they compete with the human predator for the right to kill other animals for food, including wild game and domesticated species raised by livestock ranchers. Alaskan hunters are eager to reduce the wolf population in their state because this animal is a predator of moose.

Cougars, coyotes and wolves are considered a menace to the cattle and sheep industries, and livestock ranchers have engaged in a large-scale campaign to exterminate them. Two species of wolves are now endangered, and very few wolves can be found in the United States except in Alaska and northeastern Minnesota. The relatively small number of eagles in the U.S. is largely due to the destruction of this species by livestock ranchers, particularly those in the sheep business.

Herbivorous animals that inhabit rangeland areas are also killed by the livestock industry because they compete with cattle arid sheep for food. Large numbers of kangaroos are being exterminated in Australia, while in the United States livestock ranchers seek to destroy wild horses, wild burros, deer, elk, antelope and prairie dogs.

An ever-increasing amount of beef eaten in the United States is imported from Central and South America. To provide pasture for cattle, these countries have been clearing their priceless tropical rainforests. In 1960, when the U.S. first began to import beef, Central America was blessed with 130,000 square miles of rainforest. But now, less than 80,000 square miles remain. At this rate, the entire tropical rainforests of Central America will be gone in another forty years.

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Hello: Humans Plants AND Animals are Sentient
Posted by: ecdthefirst on Feb 18, 2009 8:40 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1) I have news for the Secular Vegans: ALL beings are sentient: chickens, frogs, radishes, seaweed, etc. In an ideal world, we would approach all life that we eat with a reverence for its intelligence, and with a desire to increase its joy and diminish suffering.

2) Some wrongly assume that animals feel more pain or distress than plants because animals show pain in ways that humans can more easily recognize, since they have "faces." But plants are every bit as capable as animals in feeling shock, dismay, joy, sadness, connection, etc.

3) Not only must we realize that animals and plants all have feelings, and that all are affected by the way we humans treat them, but we must also be careful not to assume that they feel the way we feel.

4) For example, an animal or plant that gives up its life to feed us feels something about this experience, depending on factors such as how it was treated, and how it was grown, slaughtered or harvested. Factory farming is exceptionally cruel to animals for obvious reasons. Plants and animals raised with care on small farms may have a very different perspective.

5) Not all bodies can handle a 100% vegetable based diet, especially in cold weather climates. I spent two years as a vegetarian, because I felt it was wrong to eat meat unless I myself was willing to kill the animal. Well, at the end of the second year, I was feeling out of balance and had several detailed, visceral dreams of slaughtering a hen so I could eat her. I had witnessed my dad slaughtering one in the barn once when I was little. It's dramatic and messy business, and a lot of bleeding happens, so, like childbirth or surgery, it's not something that everyone can stomach.

6) Obviously, harvesting plants doesn't involve the blood and audible squawking, but I guarantee that the plant you're picking knows what you are doing, and so do all of the plants around it.

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a certain fascination
Posted by: vasumurti on Feb 18, 2009 9:37 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Author Keith Akers, in A Vegetarian Sourcebook (1983), notes that by arguing against the killing of plants, the meat-eater "seeks to reduce vegetarianism to absurdity. If vegetarians object to killing living creatures (it is argued), then logically they should object to killing plants and insects as well as animals. But this is absurd. Therefore, it can’t be wrong to kill animals.

"Fruitarians take the argument concerning plants quite seriously; they do not eat any food which causes injury or death to either animals or plants. This means, in their view, a diet of those fruits, nuts and seeds which can be eaten without the destruction of the plant that produces the food.

"Finding an ethically significant line between plants and animals, though, is not particularly difficult. Plants have no evolutionary need to feel pain, and completely lack a central nervous system. Nature does not create pain gratuitously, but only when it enables the organism to survive. Animals, being mobile, would benefit from having a sense of pain; plants would not."

In determining a boundary between sentient and insentient life, Peter Singer in Animal Liberation suggests that "somewhere between a shrimp and an oyster seems as good a place to draw the line as any, and better than most."

Keith Akers states further, "Even if one does not want to become a fruitarian and believes that plants have feelings (against all evidence to the contrary), it does not follow that vegetarianism is absurd. We ought to destroy as few plants as possible. And by raising and eating an animal for food, many more plants are destroyed indirectly by the animals we eat than if we merely ate the plants directly."

(Meat-eaters indirectly kill ten times more plants than do vegetarians!)

"What about insects?" asks Akers, "While there may be reason to kill insects, there is no reason to kill them for food. One distinguishes between the way meat animals are killed for food and the way insects are killed.

"Insects are killed only when they intrude upon human territory, posing a threat to the comfort, health, or well-being of humans. There is a huge difference between ridding oneself of intruders and going out of one's way to find and kill something which would otherwise be harmless."

According to Akers:

"These questions may have a certain fascination for philosophers, but most vegetarians are not bothered by them. For any vegetarian who is not a biological pacifist, there would not seem to be any particular difficulty in distinguishing ethically between insects and plants on the one hand, and animals and humans on the other."

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» RE: a certain fascination Posted by: Tim Behrend
"The Comparative Anatomy of Eating" by Milton Mills, MD
Posted by: vasumurti on Feb 18, 2009 10:07 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Which category are humans most suited for?

*Facial Muscles*
CARNIVORE: Reduced to allow wide mouth gape
OMNIVORE: Reduced
HERBIVORE: Well-developed
HUMAN: Well-developed

*Jaw Type*
CARNIVORE: Angle not expanded
HERBIVORE: Expanded angle
OMNIVORE: Angle not expanded
HUMAN: Expanded angle

*Jaw Joint Location*
CARNIVORE: On same plane as molar teeth
HERBIVORE: Above the plane of the molars
OMNIVORE: On same plane as molar teeth
HUMAN: Above the plane of the molars

*Jaw Motion*
CARNIVORE: Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion
HERBIVORE: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
OMNIVORE: Shearing; minimal side-to-side
HUMAN: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back

*Major Jaw Muscles*
CARNIVORE: Temporalis
HERBIVORE: Masseter and pterygoids
OMNIVORE: Temporalis
HUMAN: Masseter and pterygoids

*Mouth Opening vs. Head Size*
CARNIVORE: Large
HERBIVORE: Small
OMNIVORE: Large
HUMAN: Small

*Teeth: Incisors*
CARNIVORE: Short and pointed
HERBIVORE: Broad, flattened and spade shaped
OMNIVORE: Short and pointed
HUMAN: Broad, flattened and spade shaped

*Teeth: Canines*
CARNIVORE: Long, sharp and curved
HERBIVORE: Dull and short or long (for defense), or none
OMNIVORE: Long, sharp and curved
HUMAN: Short and blunted

*Teeth: Molars*
CARNIVORE: Sharp, jagged and blade shaped
HERBIVORE: Flattened with cusps vs complex surface
OMNIVORE: Sharp blades and/or flattened
HUMAN: Flattened with nodular cusps

*Chewing*
CARNIVORE: None; swallows food whole
HERBIVORE: Extensive chewing necessary
OMNIVORE: Swallows food whole and/or simple crushing
HUMAN: Extensive chewing necessary

*Saliva*
CARNIVORE: No digestive enzymes
HERBIVORE: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
OMNIVORE: No digestive enzymes
HUMAN: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes

*Stomach Type*
CARNIVORE: Simple
HERBIVORE: Simple or multiple chambers
OMNIVORE: Simple
HUMAN: Simple

*Stomach Acidity*
CARNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
HERBIVORE: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach
OMNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
HUMAN: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach

*Stomach Capacity*
CARNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
HERBIVORE: Less than 30% of total volume of digestive tract
OMNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
HUMAN: 21% to 27% of total volume of digestive tract

*Length of Small Intestine*
CARNIVORE: 3 to 6 times body length
HERBIVORE: 10 to more than 12 times body length
OMNIVORE: 4 to 6 times body length
HUMAN: 10 to 11 times body length

*Colon*
CARNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth
HERBIVORE: Long, complex; may be sacculated
OMNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth
HUMAN: Long, sacculated

*Liver*
CARNIVORE: Can detoxify vitamin A
HERBIVORE: Cannot detoxify vitamin A
OMNIVORE: Can detoxify vitamin A
HUMAN: Cannot detoxify vitamin A

*Kidney*
CARNIVORE: Extremely concentrated urine
HERBIVORE: Moderately concentrated urine
OMNIVORE: Extremely concentrated urine
HUMAN: Moderately concentrated urine

*Nails*
CARNIVORE: Sharp claws
HERBIVORE: Flattened nails or blunt hooves
OMNIVORE: Sharp claws
HUMAN: Flattened nails

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» society, illogic, apologetics Posted by: Tim Behrend
What is wrong about eating less?
Posted by: priceofmeat on Feb 19, 2009 1:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Great article. I agree totally with what's going on with the "new meat" movement. However, when talking with others about reducing meat intake, I think it's the wrong move to dive into why veganism or vegetarianism is the right choice.

The best everyday approach IMO, is to start a conversation with someone about how it isn't possible to produce meat sustainably on a mass scale (as much of this article is about), or how it produces more greenhouse gases than transportation, etc.

Yes its good to get people thinking about veganism, but I think it's a subject that to some, provides the perfect opportunity to launch hostile unrelated attacks, while ignoring the fact that meat production, whether industrial or "local" is a major resource hog and polluter.

The fact is we must reduce meat intake. It's set to double in the next few decades. Do we really want to face the consequences? People can reconsider 100% vegetarianism or veganism after they start reducing some meat intake.

It's a huge jump for many people, much easier said than done.

Blogging here:

http://priceofmeat.wordpress.com/

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time to evolve - go Vegan
Posted by: provoked on Feb 19, 2009 7:34 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This appears to me to be just another desperate attempt to cling to an undesirable habit... that of consuming animals - It's not necessary. No matter how "you try to slice it" - it's an ugly ordeal because it is a luxury that requires the highest of "sacrifices" for absolutely no genuine "reason". In fact, consuming flesh is more of a detriment to ones health and the environment. Beyond this too is the "luxury" of the resources that could have gone to feed 6 to 10 times more people. We should be focusing our attention to a more sustainable, healthy, bloodless alternative - It is time to evolve.

To snezzy... I've been tracking NAIS for a year now... Because of the corporate giants... and the other bad news - looks like it's going to be a reality no matter what. Vegans - this also affects rescued, sanctuary animals, and eventually "pet" animals. NAIS "National Animal Identification System" shuts the lid on "animals as property". It forces all to be micro-chipped, bar-coded, legal "commodities". Rights activists should pay attention to this "system" as it snuffs liberty and freedom not only from non-humans, but humans as well.

As for chopping up pigs and cows and other animals?... Empty the cages - Go Vegan

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I always like this article by Bruce Friedrich, with its reasonable warnings, so rarely seen
Posted by: Beck on Feb 19, 2009 7:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Both vegetarian and non-vegetarian diets have advantages.
Vegetarian diets tend to be rich in antioxidants, certain
vitamins, and healthy fats. Non-vegetarian diets, by
contrast, tend to contain more protein, iron, zinc,
calcium, and vitamin B-12.

If you already decided to adopt a vegetarian diet,
it is essential you learn how to increase your intake
and absorption of these nutrients to avoid short-term
and long-term health complications.

In the next few paragraphs, I will explain how you
can regularly assimilate larger portions of these
nutrients into your regular diet:

1. Protein. Different types of protein are made up
of different permutations of amino acid chains.
In order to create a "complete protein" or a
protein that can be assimilated into the human
body as tissue, you must consume foods that contain
complementary chains of amino acids.

Wheat, nuts, and beans are three types of vegan-friendly
incomplete proteins; however, wheat is hard to
digest and up to 50% of its protein is lost
during the process.

Isolated soy protein, which you can get from a number
of sources (including soy milk), can be digested
efficiently-enough to match the animal protein yields.

2. Iron. Plant sources contain a significant amount of
iron, but in nonheme form, which is more sensitive
to inhibitors than iron that comes from animal products.
You should do two things to increase your blood-iron
levels: 1) consume more plant iron; and 2) avoid absorption
inhibitors, such as tea, coffee, and fiber.

3. Zinc. Whereas non-vegetarian diets seem to enhance
the absorption of zinc; vegetarian and vegan diets
do the exact opposite--they inhibit it.

Nutritionists suggest that you can overcome
this by consuming more foods that contain zinc,
such as soybeans, cashews, and sunflower
seeds while reducing your intake of inhibitors
by washing vegetables and grains.

4. Calcium. While vegetarians can easily consume
an adequate amount of calcium without any dietary
additions, it is important that vegetarians avoid
consuming certain foods that are high in oxalates,
which inhibit calcium absorption.

Dietitians suggest that vegetarians do not consume
spinach, beet greens, and swiss chard as the
calcium component of a meal plan. While they are
rich in calcium, they also contain high amounts of
oxalates.

Rather than consuming those foods for calcium,
vegetarians should consider other options, such as
soy yogurt, tofu, beans, almonds, and calcium-
fortified foods.

5. Vitamin B-12. Many vegetarians lack
vitamin B-12 simply because it does not exist
naturally in any non-animal forms. Vegetarians
should seek out vitamin B-12 fortified foods,
such as certain soy milks and cereals to
supplement what they lack.

As I outlined, there are a number of nutrients
vegetarians can lack of they do not research
and plan. This is not meant to discourage
people from becoming vegetarians, but instead
to encourage them to spend time planning a
health approach to their vegetarian diet
before starting it.

When planned adequately, a vegetarian diet
can not only make up for what it lacks from
animal products, but it can far exceed
the healthfulness of most non-vegetarian diets.

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leftbank
Posted by: markw4786 on Feb 19, 2009 8:34 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I consider myself an ethical, moral person...at least I try to be. BUT...
I am a nutritionist, a nutritionist with a moral dilemma. Let me explain. In this vastly overpopulated world "sustainable meat" IS a fallacy. True, this method of raising animals for slaughter and consumption is not sustainable. That said, is the problem sustainability or human overpopulation? Killing is a function of life...really! Someday someone will invent the technology to hear a carrot scream in horror when its pulled from the ground, when its eaten...and then what do we do? The methane gas, the tons of excrement polluting our air and water would be acceptable if done on a much smaller scale. Again, overpopulation is the real problem. The fact is meat does have certain nutrients not found in fruits and vegetables. Nutrients like L-Carnisine, vitamin B12, Acetyl L-Carnitine, things necessary for health are difficult to impossible to get from a veg diet. Again some meat is important for health. The vegetarian/vegan substitute soy is not a good food. In fact it is toxic.. The Asians do not eat soy beans or isolated soy protein. They eat fermented soy (soy sauce, temp-eh, miso) in limited amounts, but not soy beans. Do a Google search on soy...you'll be amazed.
I do eat a little meat. Red meat, once or twice a month. Chicken, once a week. Eggs, 2-3 times a week. I only eat organically raised meat and eggs but, still, rarely. That being said, I don't like doing so...it does involve suffering and killing. We must remember, though, death, animal or veg is fundamental to life. The husbandry of animals should be compassionate and respectful as possible. Finally, with a sustainable population size, compassionate eco-friendly animal husbandry complimented by a limited consumption of meat is sustainable and moral.

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» RE: leftbank Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: leftbank Posted by: markw4786
» RE: leftbank Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: leftbank Posted by: markw4786
Vitamin B-12
Posted by: vasumurti on Feb 19, 2009 11:46 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Humans are not strictly herbivorous. The human body can't break down cellulose, the principle component of plant foods (though it does serve a purpose as dietary fiber). This is the reason we can't graze or live on grass. Anatomically, we resemble the other primates (frugivores), whose diet is mostly vegetarian. We're meant to live mostly, if not entirely, upon plant foods. Only vitamin B-12 cannot be obtained from plant foods.

Predators are found in nature, but so are cannibalism and rape. Killing other animals for food, in this sense, really is an ethical issue, not a "dietary" issue.

Keith Akers writes in A Vegetarian Sourcebook (1983): "There is no question that lacto-ovo-vegetarians easily obtain enough vitamin B-12; dairy products and eggs are generous suppliers of vitamin B-12. The controversy pertains only to those who live on plant foods and do not eat any animal foods at all--the 'total vegetarians' or 'vegans.'...The evidence shows, however, that there are numerous sources of vitamin B-12 other than animal foods, and that vitamin B-12 is not a particularly difficult vitamin to get. In short, the Great Vitamin B-12 Controversy, like the protein controversy, is largely generated by lack of information concerning already available research data.

"Only incredibly small quantities of vitamin B-12 are thought to be needed in the diet. According to the National Research Council, 3 micrograms daily will meet the body's requirements. but Victor Herbert, a noted authority on the subject, puts the requirement at 0.1 micrograms, making even the National Research Council's microscopic figure 30 times in excess of the actual need."

John Robbins, author of Diet for a New America (1987), says that vitamin B-12 is found naturally around us: on the dirt on a carrot pulled out of the ground, in rainwater, etc., but we live in a sanitized society, removed from nature.

Keith Akers similarly observes:

"Vitamin B-12 has been found in rainwater and in many plant foods. In small quantities, Vitamin B-12 has been found either in or on various foods such as the roots and stems of tomatoes, cabbage, celery, kale, broccoli, leeks, and the leaves of kohlrabi. An ounce of the roots of leeks, beets, and other vegetables will provide 0.1 to 0.3 micrograms of B-12, which is more than a day's requirement.

"There are other plant foods which provide 'massive' quantities of vitamin B-12--'massive,' that is, in relation to human requirements for the vitamin. These include nutritional yeast, tempeh, seaweed, algae, kelp, and fermented soy sauces. The human liver can store vitamin B-12 for years, so once it is ingested from one of these sources, one can go for long periods of time without having to worry about a source of B-12."

In his 1979 book, Vegetarianism: A Way of Life, Dudley Giehl writes that some ancient Egyptian priests were vegetarian to help them with their vows of celibacy and that they avoided eggs and milk, which they called "liquid flesh." Giehl writes that Leonardo da Vinci was a vegan, out of ethical concern for animals.

In his 1923 book, The Natural Diet of Man, Adventist physician Dr. John Harvey Kellogg writes: "The Ladrone Islands were discovered by the Spaniards around 1620. There were no animals on the islands except birds, which the natives did not eat. The natives had never seen fire, and they lived entirely on plant foods--fruits and roots in their natural state. They were found to be vigorous, active, and of good longevity."

The Garden of Eden was vegan, but veganism as an historical trend is a fairly recent phenomenon. The Vegan Society was formed in England in 1944.

The ethical, environmental, and nutritional arguments are compelling enough to encourage millions of Americans to reduce, if not eliminate entirely, their consumption of animal products.

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vasumurti always has to have the last word
Posted by: AdamG on Feb 20, 2009 9:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And cutting and pasting what others have to say passes as dialogue in his world, too.

Sort of like parrot evangelists.

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» Oh, and another thing. Posted by: AdamG
It can be done
Posted by: farmguy on Feb 24, 2009 9:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Meat, eggs and milk can be raised in adequate quantity and with attention paid to the health and welfare of the enviroment and the anaimals. It invovles more than just being organic but takes a complete food system on individual farms.

Farms must have orchards for fruit and trees for energy with grazing land beneath them. Rotating a variety of crops on tilled acres with a large percentage of the overall acres devoted to sod crops (hay, pasture). And of course gardens for vegetables. A farm like this produces most of its own nutrients and produces a variety of foodstuffs from the same acreage.

These farms used to exist everywhere until they were supplanted by the industrial monoculture model. That industrial model was hailed as being more efficent but is really only efficent at producing large quantities of commodities (corn, soybeans, chicken) with few people.

On a per acre basis farms in other countries are far more productive than the american model. And it is the American model that produces meat which requires the vast amount of water, oil, etc to produce it.

Will this farm be organic? No. It may still treat an individual sick animal with an antibiotic or use a herbicide to control a particular weed in a particular crop. But this farm will not contribute to Antibiotic resistance or weed resisitance because use of these compounds will be sparing.

Will this farm still use fossil fuel? Yes. How much depends on location. In Minnesota I must harvest and store feed for winter use. In some other states you can graze for much longer periods of time. Also we will still grow row crops and small grains which require annual tillage and harvest and mechanical weed control which means tractors.

But this farm will not use fossil fuels for crop inputs (fertilizer, chemicals, grain drying, transportation, etc) which is where most of most the energy use occurs on american farms.

I am converting my farm to this model. All I am doing is replicating a model that existed prior to the 1950's and using modern gentics, technology and farm to food systems (farmers markets, direct marketing). It will take time because I still have to work within an industrial model and pay the bills but the flocks and herds and trees are growing.

I can see a time coming when my farm will resemble my grandathers farm and be every bit as productive, in fact more productive, than the existing industrial model

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Biology has not changed in millions of years
Posted by: djnoll on Feb 24, 2009 11:27 AM   
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Our pre-historic ancestors were hunters. This is a proven fact. They evolved into hunter-gatherers as time passed. Notice that they primarily were hunters. So consider this: human physiology did not change in all this time,but our psychological make-up did. We came to demand foods that were quick, easy,and tasty, rather than demanding food to keep us alive or healthy.

A simple fact is still the same:our bodies need meat, not just protein, to thrive. It needs to be balanced to make us healthy with fruits and vegetables. But here is something to consider as you argue:

We have become the fattest, most unhealthy nation in history because of our diets. These diets are high in grains, vegetables, fruits, and meats produced in non-sustainable, industrial farming. We overeat because our food is tasteless! It needs sugars and spices to make it palatable, even edible sometimes. We eat and continue to eat because the food is lacking in nutrients and flavor, so our ancient bodies do not recognize it as food or process it well enough to meet our physical needs or our psychological ones either.

I am an animal lover that looks into the eyes of any animal and finds its soul. I am not however a vegan or a vegetarian. I am an omnivore because I realize that, like all humans, my body needs animal flesh to survive. I find myself often pondering the Native American approach to animals as food - that their souls are aware that they are here to give their lives so that man may survive. Whether I accept that spiritual belief or not, is irrelevant. What is relevant is that just as they need plants to live, they understand at some level that we need what they have to live ourselves. We cannot survive as a species without them, and our current state of collective health is proof of that.

The problem is not whether an animal or plant has a soul, but that industrial agricultural practices have stripped away any benefits we get from ANY of our food. When vegans/vegetarians need supplements to make their diets healthy, they should recognize that the diet is insufficient for human sustenance, just as carnivores should recognize that eliminating vegetables and fruits is unhealthy to them.

There are significant environmental problems with any form of industrial agriculture, and articles like this fail to honestly address those issues. In fact, as I read it I found myself wondering three things: have these authors ever been farmers; what kind of health problems will they face in the future; and which industrial agribusiness put them up to this piece of propaganda. I do not have the answers, but I do know that all humans are omnivores, and we need to start accepting that the world's food supply has been poisoned and we need to change that. The human body will eat enough to meet its physical needs if the food is natural. That is biological fact. It will require no more and psychologically it will satisfied. So stop fighting about what type, and start looking at the quality of it all and demand change!

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Meat = smelly shit.
Posted by: Paxmana1 on Feb 24, 2009 12:56 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ever wonder why most herbivores are scared of people? Ever wonder why in the wild that herbivores are the largest of the land animals?

Its that old carnivore stink. Meat Eaters carry a certain odor to which many are well accustomed so that its no longer apparent to them except when they or their cats and dogs shit and they have to pop it in the pooper box or sit on the porcelain throne, then they get the message.

Go into a Big Cat House at a zoo and just catch that aroma.

Given the wide variety of dietary items in affluent nations, food behavior is a very complex area that cannot be neatly packaged.

As a child growing up in WWII Britain rationing was in effect and of course so was meat. Comparative statistics from that period demonstrate quite clearly that as a nation we were much healthier then.

The slaughter house inspectors and workers would examine the animals liver and kidneys as the sign of health oh and of course there was no Mad Cow Disease. But the off farm cruelty was on full public display by the brutal methods used by the drovers to move the animals on foot from the rail head to the abattoir.

Factory farming of Animals was then unknown. Factory farmed animals are in the main contaminated with the toxins used to raise them .. the excesses of the antibiotics find its way into our creeks streams and rivers not to mention the downers and obviously sick animals that find their way into the food chain.

Ground up hamburger meat .. eewwwwwwwwwww!
Sausages .. eewwwwwwwwww! most of those type of products contain some really nasty end bits and trimmings .. not to mention all the insides of the animal slaughtered. Pate de Foie Gras is made from diseased goose livers

Halal or Kosher meat is bled as an execution method. The blood of every species is the index of its life. Meat that is executed in the Western manner is loaded with 'Adrenaline' .. and then some .. one only has to visit a Western Charnel House to hear the terrified bellowing's to understand that the adrenaline is pumping through those who await their turn turn for execution.

Visit a Poultry factory farm .. this is a stomach evacuating experience .. its not like picking a pack from the freezer.

Meat eaters your shit stinks.

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Better Question
Posted by: hilly7 on Feb 24, 2009 4:25 PM   
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Is it possible for a vegan to stop promoting the New World Order agenda?

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Eating for life. Eating with conscience.
Posted by: Smiff on Feb 24, 2009 7:45 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Vegie or animal protein is one among many choices we face if and when we look up and look around.

The majority of Alternet readers are probably concerned about their fellow earthlings; humans and fellow passengers.

Personally, I have an active conscience, yet I have not yet been able to resolve to my own satisfaction, the question of whether I need animal protein for optimal health.

Vegan, vegie or omnivore? There are soooooo many compelling points of view.

Currently I am settled on the view that I have heard expressed by a number of former vegan friends and acquaintances, that organic meat in small quantities is a beneficial component of a healthy diet.

Beneficial, that is, to me. I realise that the life of an animal is taken to provide that benefit to me.

I will continue to listen and read and learn, and adapt my view and lifestyle choices.

As Kahlil Gibran muses in 'The Prophet':

'Would that you could live on the fragrance of the earth, and like an air plant be sustained by the light.'

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What utter nonsense Part 1
Posted by: TheLimit on Feb 24, 2009 9:42 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Truth" be told? What “truth”?

"The words "animal rights," "vegetarian," and "vegan" are some of the most mocked and emotionally loaded terms in our language, even in very liberal circles. One has to wonder if a multibillion dollar meat industry hasn't had a part in making these words and the ideals behind them seem so laughable to so many people."

Actually, the reason these words and the ideals - so called - behind them have become laughable is because they are laughable. Actually, they aren't laughable, they are disgraceful, because the organizations that have popularized them are unethical in the extreme and have taken the line that the end justifies the means. No means is too low for PeTA and HSUS to stoop to, and they are the primary activists on this front.

They exploit what abuse they can find, and lie about animals who are not abused. They are happy to indoctrinate children, who have no way to evaluate their propaganda. They willfully redefine terms to suit their agenda, and suck in the naive and ignorant to push that agenda - which is not merely to end meat eating, but to eliminate all domestic animals and the use we make of them, whether humanely or not. They destroy those who know the most about animal husbandry through character assassination, libel and slander.

Why would any ethical person want to associate with these people in any way at all?

The reality is that vegans, who are against even pet ownership, don't know anything about livestock or any other kind of agriculture. They don't even keep pets, but they pretend to be animal experts. If you are a vegan who thinks pet keeping is OK, better check with the guys who are running your campaigns, because they are against it. If you live in the higher latitudes, better prepare for cold times; they don't think you should wear wool or silk, much less leather, even though the synthetics they favor are derived from petroleum products. Does that sound like a good policy, given that everyone believes that the climate is shifting to more extremes in the seasons, and oil becomes ever more expensive?

Some things which supporters of this agenda may not be aware of:

It is not necessary to feed meat animals grain. In fact, a diverse diet grows better meat, though with less fat (desirable to a lot of people) and a little more slowly.

Has any body bothered to calculate the number of barrels of oil it takes to raise the grain and produce Big Ag would have to replace meat production with? No? Better start figuring that up. The theory that replacing meat with grain in human diets is desireable or efficient is a shaky one at best, and with the oil situation we are looking at ... well, maybe that's something vegans should look at more closely.

Has anyone bothered to calculate the damage Big Ag has done to the grain belt with their exclusive use of petroleum based fertilizers? It's going to take a lot of organic material to recover that land when chemical fertilizers become to expensive to continue.

Meat can be grown in places which are not remotely suitable for other kinds of agriculture. The middle east has been feeding itself on animals which browse the desert. Some of those deserts exist because heavy grain production destroyed the local environment.

There is no reason why most of what we eat cannot be grown locally, though zoning changes will be necessary in many places. This would have the desirable side effect of allowing city people to get a much better grasp on where *all* their food - not just meat - comes from.

The vegan model is not a panacea, and the AR position is not based on rational argument at all. It's based mostly on emotional blackmail - not terribly ethical, would you say?

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What utter nonsense Part 2
Posted by: TheLimit on Feb 24, 2009 9:55 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Meat is hardly an American vice. The Brits held the beefeater title long before America was thought of, and Northern Europe is no slouch either. But how silly of me to point this out – you surely use the name of whatever country you are trying to sell your agenda to.

What, as a matter of curiosity, would you consider an acceptable way for an animal to die? Most animals die at the teeth and claws of other animals. Domestic animals have protection from this end, but domestic animals, like us, often outlive their health. Is it kind to keep an animal alive as long as you can keep it breathing? It's true that this is how we deal with each other, but we have long conferred a quick death on our domestic animals whose lives have become a burden, where that was possible. Of course, now we are often constrained to poison our elderly companions, making their carcasses unfit for any use at all and in fact a pollutant to the land. That has happened because of AR driven laws and ordinances – more evidence that AR proponents either don't care about animal welfare or the environment, or are ignorant of same, or both.

I don't understand this business of the 'right to life' either. Who, exactly, has any right to life? Humans certainly don't. Wild animals don't. So what, exactly is the issue here? All carnivores and omnivores kill to eat. Humans at least have the capability of arranging the death of their meat with compassion and efficiency. That is more than a great many animals or humans get.

And talk about specious argument – to say that “Other animals, with no alternative sustenance, having no language and being isolated in themselves, do not seem to be appropriate role models for our ethical lives.” is as silly an argument to support the AR Vegan agenda as any I've ever heard. Carnivores are biologically engineered to eat meat. That is not a choice we make, it is a matter of biology.

We are biologically designed to eat some foods. Some of us are omniverous, that is we can digest and use a very broad range of foods. Because we can do this doesn't mean we can safely eliminate a large part of our protein sources. Most of us can no doubt do that for a while, but though some may be able to do it in the long term doesn't mean it's a good idea for everyone from this day forth. Most doctors actively advise against vegan diets for children.

Meat is, for humans, one of very few food sources we have that does not require some sort of processing to be digestible, and that alone argues against the vegan diet. Meat is easily digestible raw, and cooking it is really only a habit we learned late in our development, which lets us keep it longer (more efficient use of the food) and of course now placates the squeamish. It's not at all uncommon for small children to eat raw meat with enthusiasm until they are corrected.

No one is forcing anyone to eat meat, or drink milk, eat eggs, wear wool or silk, eat honey, keep pets, ride horseback, use service dogs, go racing or to the circus or the zoo, or interact in other companionable way with animals. If you don't want to do these things, you are free to opt out.

It is far from ethical to use your squeamishness about eating animal products to conceive and support an agenda which can only be supported with faith and voodoo science. It is particularly unethical at a time when we really DO need to clean up the environment, get rid of ALL kinds of monoculture, not just meat factories - to market a fallacy as a panacea.

Veganism is neither ethical nor humanitarian. It is radical, however. “Conscientious omnivores”, a term I hadn't heard until I read this rather dubious article are not radical, they are merely traditionalists.

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» RE: What utter nonsense Part 2 Posted by: Paxmana1
» RE: What utter nonsense Part 2 Posted by: TheLimit
» RE: What utter nonsense Part 2 Posted by: Paxmana1
» RE: What utter nonsense Part 2 Posted by: TheLimit
» RE: What utter nonsense Part 2 Posted by: Paxmana1
Can you imagine ..
Posted by: TheLimit on Feb 25, 2009 2:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What it might be like if these zealots who are so determined to revise our morality by saving animals from providing our food would apply this commitment to demanding kindness and caring for people?

It's true we have a contingent who are always more concerned about children starving on a far continent than those at home, and orphans in foreign countries - at least, we hope they are orphans, and not kidnapping victims - but there is no concern for the homeless here at home. No concern for those on both sides who are maimed and killed by the wars we engage in. Well, lip service, certainly - but no screaming outrage.

If all this zeal we have for 'protecting' animals - assuming any animals are protected, which is doubtful, but off the point - were applied to protecting people, wouldn't things be different.

Must be very late, and perhaps my wits are addled, but something to think about.

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» RE: Can you imagine .. Posted by: Paxmana1
» RE: Can you imagine .. Posted by: TheLimit
The One True Religion
Posted by: IndispensiBill on Feb 25, 2009 11:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here we go again! Nothing is guaranteed to rile up more passion and engender more enflamed commentary than this issue.

I mean, it's one thing to have beliefs about diet and health. But these discussions always seem to degenerate into competing tirades aimed at getting readers to adopt the author's pet dietary theory as if it were the One True Religion.

And it resembles religious fanaticism in that it always seeks to convert. My favorite parody of this can be found in the one good scene of an otherwise lousy movie, Circle of Iron (aka The Silent Flute).

I have an idea. Maybe finding the best diet for your body is an individual thing. Maybe one size doesn't fit all.


Bill McLaughlin
The Shoe-Leather Express

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» RE: The One True Religion Posted by: Paxmana1
» RE: The One True Religion Posted by: TheLimit
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