COMMENTS: 29
President Obama's Big Climate Challenge
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Barack Obama won an historic victory yesterday, and with it the right to take office under the most difficult circumstances since Franklin D. Roosevelt. Maybe more difficult, because while both FDR and Obama had financial meltdowns to deal with, Obama also faces the meltdown meltdown -- the rapid disintegration of the planet's climate system that threatens to challenge the very foundations of our civilization.
Do you think that sounds melodramatic? Let me give it to you from the abstract of a scientific paper written earlier this year by one of the people who now works for Mr. Obama, NASA scientist James Hansen. "If humanity wishes to preserve a planet similar to that on which civilization developed and to which life on Earth is adapted, paleo-climate evidence and ongoing climate change suggest that CO2 [in the atmosphere] will need to be reduced from its current 385 ppm [parts per million] to at most 350 ppm." In other words, if we keep increasing carbon any longer, the earth itself will make our efforts moot.
Hansen's calculation is a scientifically grounded way of saying: Everything must change at once. To meet his target, before enough feedback loops kick in to irrevocably warm the planet, Hansen says fossil-fuel combustion, particularly coal, must cease around the planet by about 2030, and that it must happen sooner in the industrialized nations. As the climate observer, and tireless blogger, Joe Romm observed when Hansen's paper was published, it means that "we need to go straight to the government-led WWII-style effort for the whole planet that is sustained for decades." (Well, back to FDR, what do you know.).
Anyway, here are some of the pieces of what Obama must push for:
- Massive government investment in green energy. For this to have any hope of being politically viable, it will need to be seen as the single huge stimulus effort that might lift us out of our financial swamp. (That's almost certainly true, by the way -- name another emergent technology capable of re-floating the economy for the long run). We have at least some of the technologies we'd need -- wind, the newly promising desert solar arrays, and the ever-useful insulation (the installation of which would at least create a lot of jobs -- you're not going to send your house to China for a layer of fiberglass). You might also push for nuclear, but it takes a long time and it's probably too expensive to make a rational list. Still, no holds barred.
- A stiff cap on carbon, which will help drive the process. Again, to have any chance of passing politically, it will need to come with the feature proposed in recent years by Peter Barnes, and that Obama has semi-endorsed: a "cap and share" approach that would return the revenue raised directly to consumers. That is, Exxon would pay for the permit to pour carbon into the atmosphere, a cost that would rise steadily as the cap was lowered. But instead of the money going into government coffers, every American would get a check each year for their share of the proceeds. They'd be made whole against the rising cost of energy, while the shock that the price signal would send would be preserved. Current versions of cap-and-trade are too weak and too riddled with loopholes -- getting a clean, tough bill through Congress needs to be a preoccupation of President Obama.
- Once the president has done all that tough stuff at home, he'll need to do it all over again, globally. The world is meeting in Copenhagen in December of 2009 to come up with a successor to the Kyoto treaty, the modest first international effort that George W. Bush walked away from weeks after taking office. If Hansen and others are even close to right, this will represent the last legitimate shot the world has at putting itself on a new carbon regime in time to make any difference.
It will be incredibly difficult, mostly because we begin from such unequal places. China has lots of coal and it would like to burn it, because it's the cheapest way to pull rural Chinese out of dire poverty (something the country's leaders would quite like to do because otherwise they won't be the country's leaders much longer). If we want them to use, say, windmills instead, we're going to need to "share some wealth," north to south, to make it happen. The Chinese opened the bidding last week, with a suggestion that one percent of the U.S. annual GDP would be a good amount to send their way. That's going to be quite a political ask -- it means that Americans would be working roughly one hour every two weeks just to help the global South build up their clean alternatives. What we're talking about is a carbon version of the Marshall Plan, and it would mean Obama needs to be not just FDR but Truman and Ike as well.
What it all boils down to is: The bills are coming due. And not just, or even mainly, the bills from a failed Bush presidency, but the bills from 200 years of burning fossil fuel. Twenty years ago when we started worrying about global warming, we thought we'd have a generation to pay those bills off. But we were wrong -- the planet was more finely balanced than we'd realized. The melting Arctic is the call from the repo man.
Any hope of succeeding will require Obama to grasp, deep in his guts, the fact that climate, energy, food, and the economy are now hopelessly intertwined, and that trying to solve any one of these problems without taking on the others simply makes all of them worse. More, he needs to understand, again viscerally, the single stark fact of our time: No matter how many votes, no matter how much lobbying, no matter how much pressure you apply, you can't amend the laws of physics and chemistry. They aren't like the laws that politicians are used to dealing with. They will be obeyed, like it or not. 350 is now the most important number on the planet, the red line that defines reality reality.
It doesn't define political reality, however. The political reality goes like this: George W. Bush was so terrible on this issue that the bar has been set incredibly low -- Obama will get all the political points he needs with fairly minimal effort. Doing what actually needs to be done will be politically...unpopular isn't even the word. It might well wreck his political future, because it would involve -- directly or indirectly -- raising the cost of continuing to live as we do right now.
My guess, from the outside, is that all Obama's instincts are centrist. Certainly in energy policy he's offered nothing all that bold or interesting, though his sophistication and engagement have grown during the campaign, which is a good sign.
A better sign is simply that, by every testimony, he's one of the smartest men ever to assume high political office in this country. Not just smarter than Bush. Really smart. Smart enough, if he sits down to really understand the scale of the problem he faces, that he might decide to take the gambles that the situation requires. He said, not long ago, "under my plan of a cap-and-trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket" -- which is a sign of someone who is aware there may be a reality to come to grips with.
First signs to watch for: Does he go to Poland next month for the United Nations Climate Change Conference, and in so doing electrify the international talks over carbon? Are people like green-jobs advocate Van Jones on the short list of those he's listening to on energy policy? Can he see clear to making this -- after dealing with the short-term financial emergency -- his first legislative priority, even before health care?
Obama, and the rest of us, have a lot more to fear than fear itself. We've got carbon, and right now that's the most frightening stuff on earth.
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Posted by: Last Chance on Nov 5, 2008 12:46 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
None of those necessary reforms can be accomplished if the Obama Administration dedicates itself to "grow the economy" as he said in one of his eloquent speeches. The Earth is already overcrowded with massive industrial sprawl and poisoned by megatons of toxic waste and garbage. Thus, a growing economy is an ecocidal economy! To survive we must reduce the human population, shrink the economy and recycle 100% of all waste and garbage. If not, we blunder into ecocide and self-extinction, period!
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» RE: Without population reduction...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Green Revolution feeds Starving Masses
Posted by: beeden
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Nov 6, 2008 4:38 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
much more expensive step of removing CO2 from the air by
mechanical/chemical means.
Standardized, assembly line manufacture of nuclear reactors to
replace coal burners will lower the price of electricity even more.
Bill McKibben: Thanks for most of your article, but you need a
new attitude on nuclear power. YES WE CAN replace every
coal burner on earth with a nuclear reactor in 8 years, AND WE
CAN MAKE A PROFIT ON THEM. We can provide electricity
to the Chinese peasants for AT LEAST 30% LESS than what they
would pay for electricity from coal. Want a high paying green
job? Work at the nuclear reactor factory that we have to build, or
at a Canadian nuclear reactor factory.
We would have avoided the fix we are in if Americans had not
been driven paranoid of all things nuclear by the coal industry; if
Americans had not been driven paranoid of all things scientific by
the religion industry and if Americans had not been kept ignorant
by bad schools and their own lack of interest. We could already
be free of coal fired power plants because we have known about
nuclear power since the 1930s.
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» Agreeing and going further
Posted by: mgmyers79
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Nov 6, 2008 4:44 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
power, the coal industry is safe. There is no way wind, solar, geothermal and
wave power can replace coal, and they know it. If you quit being afraid of
nuclear, the coal industry is doomed. Every time you argue in favor of wind,
solar, geothermal and wave power, or against nuclear, King Coal is happy.
ONLY nuclear power can put coal out of business. Nuclear power HAS put coal
out of business in France. France uses 30 year old American technology. So
here is the deal: Keep being afraid of all things nuclear and die either when [not
if] civilization collapses or when H2S comes out of the ocean and Homo
"Sapiens" goes extinct. OR: Get over your paranoia and kick the coal habit and
live. Which do you choose? I put quotation marks around "Sapiens" because it
is not clear that most of us have enough brains to avoid extinction when it is
clearly predicted and the safe path has been pointed out. Nuclear is the safe path.
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» RE: What the coal companies know that most people don't:
Posted by: Knot_Rich
» nuclear cannot compete with coal
Posted by: mgmyers79
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Nov 6, 2008 4:49 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Million Chinese every year.
Coal is mostly carbon, but the complete list of impurities in coal includes every
element in the periodic table. The major impurities are, depending on where
you found it: URANIUM, ARSENIC, LEAD, MERCURY, Antimony, Cobalt,
Nickel, Copper, Selenium, Barium, Fluorine, Silver, Beryllium, Iron, Sulfur,
Boron, Titanium, Cadmium, Magnesium, Calcium, Manganese, Vanadium,
Chlorine, Aluminum, Chromium, Molybdenum and Zinc. Coal smoke and
cinders are commercially viable ORE for the above elements. Chinese industrial
grade coal contains much more arsenic than American coal. Chinese industrial
grade coal is sometimes stolen by peasants for cooking. The result is that the
whole family dies of arsenic poisoning. Coal varies a lot. You have to analyze
it not only mine by mine but even lump by lump. Coal is a rock. It comes out
of the ground. What would you expect of a rock?
Reference:
OUR NUCLEAR FUTURE:
THE PATH OF SELECTIVE IGNORANCE
by Alex Gabbard
Oak Ridge National Laboratory
Oak Ridge, TN
Selections from the 19th Annual Conference
SOUTHERN FUTURE SOCIETY
March 14,15,16, 1996
Nashville, Tennessee
Published by the
SOUTHERN FUTURE SOCIETY
1996
Edited by Jack D. Arters, Ed.D.
Conference Director
The truth is, all natural rocks contain most natural elements. Coal is a rock.
The average concentration of uranium in coal is 1 or 2 parts per million. Illinois
coal contains up to 103 parts per million uranium. A 1000 million watt coal
fired power plant burns 4 million tons of coal each year. If you multiply 4
million tons by 1 part per million, you get 4 tons of uranium. Most of that is
U238. About .7% is U235. 4 tons = 8000 pounds. 8000 pounds times .7% =
56 pounds of U235. An average 1000 million watt coal fired power plant puts
out 56 to 112 pounds of U235 every year. There are only 2 places the uranium
can go: Up the stack or into the cinders.
Since a reactor full fuel load is around 11 tons of 2% U235 and 98% U238, and
one load lasts about 10 years, and what one coal fired power plant puts into the
air and cinders fully fuels a nuclear power plant.
Compare 4 Million tons per year with 1.1 tons per year. 1.1 divided by 4 Million
= 2.75 E -7 = .000000275 =.0000275%. Remember that only 2% of that is
U235. The nuclear power plant needs ~44 pounds of U235 per year. The coal
fired power plant burns coal by the trainload. The nuclear power plant consumes
U235 in such small quantities yearly that you could carry that much weight in a
briefcase. The full fuel load and the years between fueling varies from reactor to
reactor, but one truck can carry the weight of a full nuclear fuel load.
See also: http://www.ornl.gov/ORNLReview/rev26-34/text/coalmain.html
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Nov 6, 2008 4:54 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Cravens, 2007 Finally a truthful book about nuclear power. Gwyneth Cravens
is a former anti-nuclear activist.
Page 13 has a chart of greenhouse gas emissions from electricity production.
Nuclear power produces less greenhouse gas [CO2] than any other source,
including coal, natural gas, hydro, solar and wind. Building wind turbines and
towers also involve industrial processes such as concrete and steel making.
Nuclear power plants produce a total of 30 grams of CO2 per kilowatt hour, the
lowest. This is the full life cycle CO2 output. There are no hidden CO2 outputs.
Wind turbines produce a total of 58 grams of CO2 per kilowatt hour.
Solar power produces between 100 and 280 grams of CO2 per kilowatt hour.
Hydro power produces 240 grams of CO2 per kilowatt hour.
Natural gas produces between 439 and 688 grams of CO2 per kilowatt hour.
Coal plants produce the most, between 966 and 1306 grams of CO2 per kilowatt
hour, the highest.
Remember the total is the sum of direct emissions from burning fuel and indirect
emissions from the life cycle, which means the industrial processes required to
build it. Again, nuclear comes in the lowest. Nuclear would produce even less
CO2 per kilowatt hour if the safety were lowered to the same level as other
sources of electricity. Switching from coal to nuclear is a 97% reduction in
electricity's 40% of our CO2 output. The refereed scenarios from the IPCC
failed to hold the CO2 down to 450 parts per million. You can't without building
something like 10,000 new nuclear power plants world wide to replace every coal
fired power plant on the planet. The 10,000 includes replacing all Generation 1
[Chernobyl style] power plants with safe American Generation 4 technology.
Let's get it done.
Page 211: In 2005, the production cost of electricity from:
nuclear power on average cost 1.72 cents per kilowatt-hour 1.00 times nuclear's
price. This is the full and total price. There are no hidden costs. There are no
subsidies. There are no tricks. 1.72 cents per kilowatt-hour is all of it.
[Supposed subsidies cover the cost caused by irrational protesters. That is a cost
of civil order, not a cost of nuclear power. The price would be lower if the safety
level were lowered to equal other sources of electricity.]
from coal-fired plants 2.21 cents per kilowatt-hour 1.28 times nuclear's price
from natural gas 7.5 cents per kilowatt-hour 4.36 times nuclear's price
from oil 8.09 cents per kilowatt-hour 4.7 times nuclear's price
Wind fits in here.
solar in a sunny place 22 to 40 cents per kilowatt-hour 12.79 to 23.26 times
nuclear's price
American nuclear power reactors operated in 2005 around the clock
at about 90 percent capacity
geothermal plants operated at 75 percent capacity
coal-fired plants operated at about 73 percent capacity
hydroelectric plants at 29 percent capacity
natural gas from 16 to 38 percent capacity
wind at 27 percent capacity
solar at 19 percent capacity
[Batteries not included but required for wind and solar. Why did wind and solar
operate so far below capacity? Simple: Wind power never works when the
wind isn't blowing. Solar only works at maximum during the noon hour.]
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» RE: Nuclear power is the greenest of all sources of electricity.
Posted by: Bradley
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Nov 6, 2008 9:23 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
should not be wasted. We don't recycle nuclear fuel because
spent fuel is valuable and people steal it. The place it went that it
wasn't supposed to go to is Israel. This happened in a small town
near Pittsburgh, PA circa 1970. A company called Numec was in
the business of reprocessing nuclear fuel. I almost took a job
there, designing a nuclear battery for a heart pacemaker. [The
army offered me more money to work on nuclear weapons
effects.] [A nuclear battery would have the advantage of lasting
many times as long as any other battery, eliminating many
surgeries to replace batteries.] Numec did NOT have a reactor.
Numec "lost" a quantity of reactor grade uranium. It wound up in
Israel. The Israelis have fueled both their nuclear power plants
and their nuclear weapons by stealing nuclear "waste." See:
Pittsburghlive
It could work for any other country, such as Iran or the United
States. It is only when you don't have access to nuclear "waste"
that you have to do the difficult process of enriching uranium,
unless you have a Canadian "CANDU" reactor or a British
Magnox reactor, both of which run on unenriched uranium.
Numec is no longer in business. The reprocessing of nuclear fuel
in the US stopped. That was the only politically possible solution
at that time, given that private corporations did the reprocessing.
My solution would be to reprocess the fuel at a Government
Owned Government Operated [GOGO] facility. At a GOGO
plant, bureaucracy and the multiplicity of ethnicity and religion
would disable the transportation of uranium to Israel or to any
unauthorized place. Nothing heavier than a secret would get out.
I have no financial stake in the nuclear power industry, and I
never have. Nobody is paying me to say this.
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» Ignorance is not bliss@this issue!
Posted by: crazy carlos
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Nov 8, 2008 9:03 PM
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Cravens, 2007 Finally a truthful book about nuclear power. Gwyneth Cravens is
a former anti-nuclear activist.
Page 140: "Troublemakers know we humans instinctively tend to" think of the
worst case as the prediction. People think the false urban legends about
Chernobyl are the norm. [Human instincts were evolved over the past 400
Million years of pre-stone-age. Human instincts are no longer applicable, but,
without training as a scientist, most people operate instinctively. Your instincts,
and mine, are just plain wrong.] Probabilistic Risk Assessment is a much better
method of making decisions, but it requires a lot of science, math and computer
time. We have accumulated 12 Thousand reactor years of safe operation.
[Chernobyl is unlike any reactor in the western world. American reactors can
NOT do what Chernobyl did.]
Page 187: The health effects of the Three Mile Island meltdown were
psychological.
Page 197: "If you live within fifty miles of a coal-fired plant, you're exposed to
0.03 millirem a year. Living near a nuclear plant exposes you to 0.009 millirem a
year." "Those [soft coal burning] plants give off four hundred times more radio
nuclides a year than a nuclear plant-one to four millirem." "In the United States in
1999, coal combustion produced over 1,000 tons of uranium and 2,500 tons of
thorium. This is enough fissile material to exceed the amount consumed by all the
nuclear power reactors in the country in a year. After World War II, when
scientists believed uranium to be rare, they considered extracting it from coal fly
ash."
Page 249: "The manufacture of photovoltaic panels requires highly toxic heavy
metals, gasses, and solvents that are carcinogenic. ........ If a residential fire burns
a solar panel, people would be at risk for exposure to toxic vapors and smoke, ... .
If modules are dumped into municipal landfills, then heavy metals such as arsenic
and lead can leach into the soil and water table. Hundreds of thousands of years
from now, some of those substances will still not have decayed: their life spans are
essentially eternal."
Page 269: "[E]very day the collective households and industries of America
throw away nearly a million tons of garbage containing toxic heavy metals and
dangerous chemicals, as well as plastics that will never break down. That garbage
will be our culture's real legacy, enduring for millions of years after all the present
nuclear waste has decayed."
Page 290: There is a mistake: She says that the Waste Isolation Pilot Plant in
New Mexico is the only nuclear waste repository in operation. France has one.
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Posted by: mutualaid on Nov 10, 2008 7:19 PM
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McKibben calls for 350ppm reduction in atmospheric carbon;
Van Jones calls for obama, 'following 1Sky's lead, the forty-fourth U.S. president should stand before the American people vowing to enact policies that will: (1) create five million green jobs as a part of a plan to conserve 20 percent of our energy by 2015; (2) freeze climate pollution levels now, then cut them to at least 25 percent below 1990 levels by 2020 and 80 percent by 2050; and (3) ban the construction of new coal plants that emit global-warming pollution, promoting renewable energy instead.'
are these not much different in the time frame and targets they propose? Is Van Jones' proposal not much more politically expedient rather than scientifically grounded (as per James Hansen's prognosis)?
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» RE: Why is Van Jones recommended by Bill McKibben?
Posted by: CosmoViking
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Posted by: jimidee on Nov 12, 2008 8:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: CosmoViking on Nov 13, 2008 2:59 AM
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This is because of our relative position to the Galactic Plane (or "the dark rift") which we are passing thorugh in this time. Remarkably, the crescenso of this "passage" was accurately calculated by the Mayans (with a margin of +/-1 day) and the propagation of gravity waves from the center of the galaxy are at their maximum in this region of space.
Thus, the is increased tidal forces on ALL bodies in the Solar System, which generates heat between the mantle and crust of the Earth, is putting pressure on the heliospehere (the NASA probe) and could eventually trigger a physical pole shift with lots and lots of earthquakes and massive loss of life.
I can't tell you how much I hope the models predicting this gravitational interaction are WRONG because if they are right, this will be much worse that any politician will tell you. It so bad someone might decide to bury a safe supply of all agricultural seeds inside a muntain.
Oh wait, they did that in Spitsberg already.
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Posted by: maxpayne on Nov 13, 2008 5:23 AM
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Posted by: isoptera@mchsi.com on Nov 13, 2008 8:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide is undoubtedly increasing climate warmth somewhat. However I suspect that as great an affect on warmth is the baring of soil by increase in annual crop acreage, roads, buildings, grazing, and desertification currently. You may see an article that briefly discusses this and gives some solutions in more detail in http://charles_w.tripod.com/climate.html .
Sincerely, Charles Weber
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Posted by: erikleaver on Nov 13, 2008 9:45 AM
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Video includes:
* Janet Redman, Researcher, Sustainable Energy and Economy Network, IPS
* Brent Blackwelder, President, Friends of the Earth US
* James Barrett, Executive Director, Redefining Progress
* Arjun Makhijani, President, Institute for Energy and Environmental Research
http://video.google.com
/videoplay?docid=-3448731212428095912&hl=en
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Posted by: D. Shenary on Nov 13, 2008 10:05 AM
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» RE: High Level Nuclear Waste
Posted by: Life of Illusion
» RE: High Level Nuclear Waste
Posted by: maxpayne
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Posted by: Knot_Rich on Nov 13, 2008 10:50 AM
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I need a beer.
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Posted by: joeocho88 on Nov 13, 2008 4:35 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Read the stats on how much energy Mister GORE's house and lifestyle really requires. He seems like another one of those hypocritical limosine liberal who is going to tell us common serfs what to do while he and his elite pals continue to live in luxury and tax the rest of us to PAY FOR IT!
Like the PIGS in George Orwell's " Animal Farm "concluded: "SOME ANIMALS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS!"
And now we have the Academic Shuffle where those of us who are less educated ( and, thus, incapable of intelligent contemplation and analysis of a line of **** when we hear it)
are supposed to be allowed to have our opinions count for nought because we do not have an intimidating string of letters signifying graduate degrees after our names...
And everyone who wants grant money, publishing priorities in a publish or perish world, tenure and all of the other perks that come with ACADEMIA had better fall in line with the other sheeple in the land of ivy!
And the official line now happens to be GLOBAL WARMING-- which it is NOT!
There is a very real prospect of a new Ice Age instead.
When these guys get their homes foreclosed on, they MAY have the opportunity to find out for themselves this winter if there is global warming or not.
I KNOW THAT YOU GUYS HAVE TO PUBLISH OR PERISH BUT MUST YOU KEEP PUTTING SUCH AN IDIOTIC HOAX OF GLOBAL WARMING ONTO THE GENERAL POPULACE!
I AM NOT BUYING THIS "SACK OF SCHTUFF".. I AM NOT SAYING THAT YOU ARE LIARS BUT TO COME TO SUCH INANE AND INSANE CONCLUSIONS BELIES WHAT ACADEMIA is supposed to be about.
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Posted by: SbgBJ on Nov 14, 2008 4:57 AM
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"You're entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own set of facts."
If you knew ANYthing about sound science or about the vast majority of venerated scientists who have been warning us about this very trend since the 1970s(!), you'd cease and desist with your "This is so terrifying, I have to kill (or at least shout down) the messenger" hysteria, and instead roll up your sleeves and get to work for the sake of those you care about.
Get your head on straight, get informed and then GET WITH THE PROGRAM!
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Posted by: SbgBJ on Nov 14, 2008 5:09 AM
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And when, for example, temperate Europe is no longer warmed by the Gulf Stream enough to maintain its climate, it cools, the ever-lengthening winter begins and the polar ice begins to extend southward and your ice age is in full swing.
The science is out there for the learning... unfortunately there is a lot to read and WEEP about on this topic. The question is, what are we gonna DO about it?!
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Posted by: Last Chance on Nov 5, 2008 12:46 PM
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None of those necessary reforms can be accomplished if the Obama Administration dedicates itself to "grow the economy" as he said in one of his eloquent speeches. The Earth is already overcrowded with massive industrial sprawl and poisoned by megatons of toxic waste and garbage. Thus, a growing economy is an ecocidal economy! To survive we must reduce the human population, shrink the economy and recycle 100% of all waste and garbage. If not, we blunder into ecocide and self-extinction, period!
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» RE: Without population reduction...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Green Revolution feeds Starving Masses
Posted by: beeden
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Nov 6, 2008 4:38 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
much more expensive step of removing CO2 from the air by
mechanical/chemical means.
Standardized, assembly line manufacture of nuclear reactors to
replace coal burners will lower the price of electricity even more.
Bill McKibben: Thanks for most of your article, but you need a
new attitude on nuclear power. YES WE CAN replace every
coal burner on earth with a nuclear reactor in 8 years, AND WE
CAN MAKE A PROFIT ON THEM. We can provide electricity
to the Chinese peasants for AT LEAST 30% LESS than what they
would pay for electricity from coal. Want a high paying green
job? Work at the nuclear reactor factory that we have to build, or
at a Canadian nuclear reactor factory.
We would have avoided the fix we are in if Americans had not
been driven paranoid of all things nuclear by the coal industry; if
Americans had not been driven paranoid of all things scientific by
the religion industry and if Americans had not been kept ignorant
by bad schools and their own lack of interest. We could already
be free of coal fired power plants because we have known about
nuclear power since the 1930s.
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» Agreeing and going further
Posted by: mgmyers79
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Nov 6, 2008 4:44 AM
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power, the coal industry is safe. There is no way wind, solar, geothermal and
wave power can replace coal, and they know it. If you quit being afraid of
nuclear, the coal industry is doomed. Every time you argue in favor of wind,
solar, geothermal and wave power, or against nuclear, King Coal is happy.
ONLY nuclear power can put coal out of business. Nuclear power HAS put coal
out of business in France. France uses 30 year old American technology. So
here is the deal: Keep being afraid of all things nuclear and die either when [not
if] civilization collapses or when H2S comes out of the ocean and Homo
"Sapiens" goes extinct. OR: Get over your paranoia and kick the coal habit and
live. Which do you choose? I put quotation marks around "Sapiens" because it
is not clear that most of us have enough brains to avoid extinction when it is
clearly predicted and the safe path has been pointed out. Nuclear is the safe path.
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» RE: What the coal companies know that most people don't:
Posted by: Knot_Rich
» nuclear cannot compete with coal
Posted by: mgmyers79
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Nov 6, 2008 4:49 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Million Chinese every year.
Coal is mostly carbon, but the complete list of impurities in coal includes every
element in the periodic table. The major impurities are, depending on where
you found it: URANIUM, ARSENIC, LEAD, MERCURY, Antimony, Cobalt,
Nickel, Copper, Selenium, Barium, Fluorine, Silver, Beryllium, Iron, Sulfur,
Boron, Titanium, Cadmium, Magnesium, Calcium, Manganese, Vanadium,
Chlorine, Aluminum, Chromium, Molybdenum and Zinc. Coal smoke and
cinders are commercially viable ORE for the above elements. Chinese industrial
grade coal contains much more arsenic than American coal. Chinese industrial
grade coal is sometimes stolen by peasants for cooking. The result is that the
whole family dies of arsenic poisoning. Coal varies a lot. You have to analyze
it not only mine by mine but even lump by lump. Coal is a rock. It comes out
of the ground. What would you expect of a rock?
Reference:
OUR NUCLEAR FUTURE:
THE PATH OF SELECTIVE IGNORANCE
by Alex Gabbard
Oak Ridge National Laboratory
Oak Ridge, TN
Selections from the 19th Annual Conference
SOUTHERN FUTURE SOCIETY
March 14,15,16, 1996
Nashville, Tennessee
Published by the
SOUTHERN FUTURE SOCIETY
1996
Edited by Jack D. Arters, Ed.D.
Conference Director
The truth is, all natural rocks contain most natural elements. Coal is a rock.
The average concentration of uranium in coal is 1 or 2 parts per million. Illinois
coal contains up to 103 parts per million uranium. A 1000 million watt coal
fired power plant burns 4 million tons of coal each year. If you multiply 4
million tons by 1 part per million, you get 4 tons of uranium. Most of that is
U238. About .7% is U235. 4 tons = 8000 pounds. 8000 pounds times .7% =
56 pounds of U235. An average 1000 million watt coal fired power plant puts
out 56 to 112 pounds of U235 every year. There are only 2 places the uranium
can go: Up the stack or into the cinders.
Since a reactor full fuel load is around 11 tons of 2% U235 and 98% U238, and
one load lasts about 10 years, and what one coal fired power plant puts into the
air and cinders fully fuels a nuclear power plant.
Compare 4 Million tons per year with 1.1 tons per year. 1.1 divided by 4 Million
= 2.75 E -7 = .000000275 =.0000275%. Remember that only 2% of that is
U235. The nuclear power plant needs ~44 pounds of U235 per year. The coal
fired power plant burns coal by the trainload. The nuclear power plant consumes
U235 in such small quantities yearly that you could carry that much weight in a
briefcase. The full fuel load and the years between fueling varies from reactor to
reactor, but one truck can carry the weight of a full nuclear fuel load.
See also: http://www.ornl.gov/ORNLReview/rev26-34/text/coalmain.html
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Nov 6, 2008 4:54 AM
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Cravens, 2007 Finally a truthful book about nuclear power. Gwyneth Cravens
is a former anti-nuclear activist.
Page 13 has a chart of greenhouse gas emissions from electricity production.
Nuclear power produces less greenhouse gas [CO2] than any other source,
including coal, natural gas, hydro, solar and wind. Building wind turbines and
towers also involve industrial processes such as concrete and steel making.
Nuclear power plants produce a total of 30 grams of CO2 per kilowatt hour, the
lowest. This is the full life cycle CO2 output. There are no hidden CO2 outputs.
Wind turbines produce a total of 58 grams of CO2 per kilowatt hour.
Solar power produces between 100 and 280 grams of CO2 per kilowatt hour.
Hydro power produces 240 grams of CO2 per kilowatt hour.
Natural gas produces between 439 and 688 grams of CO2 per kilowatt hour.
Coal plants produce the most, between 966 and 1306 grams of CO2 per kilowatt
hour, the highest.
Remember the total is the sum of direct emissions from burning fuel and indirect
emissions from the life cycle, which means the industrial processes required to
build it. Again, nuclear comes in the lowest. Nuclear would produce even less
CO2 per kilowatt hour if the safety were lowered to the same level as other
sources of electricity. Switching from coal to nuclear is a 97% reduction in
electricity's 40% of our CO2 output. The refereed scenarios from the IPCC
failed to hold the CO2 down to 450 parts per million. You can't without building
something like 10,000 new nuclear power plants world wide to replace every coal
fired power plant on the planet. The 10,000 includes replacing all Generation 1
[Chernobyl style] power plants with safe American Generation 4 technology.
Let's get it done.
Page 211: In 2005, the production cost of electricity from:
nuclear power on average cost 1.72 cents per kilowatt-hour 1.00 times nuclear's
price. This is the full and total price. There are no hidden costs. There are no
subsidies. There are no tricks. 1.72 cents per kilowatt-hour is all of it.
[Supposed subsidies cover the cost caused by irrational protesters. That is a cost
of civil order, not a cost of nuclear power. The price would be lower if the safety
level were lowered to equal other sources of electricity.]
from coal-fired plants 2.21 cents per kilowatt-hour 1.28 times nuclear's price
from natural gas 7.5 cents per kilowatt-hour 4.36 times nuclear's price
from oil 8.09 cents per kilowatt-hour 4.7 times nuclear's price
Wind fits in here.
solar in a sunny place 22 to 40 cents per kilowatt-hour 12.79 to 23.26 times
nuclear's price
American nuclear power reactors operated in 2005 around the clock
at about 90 percent capacity
geothermal plants operated at 75 percent capacity
coal-fired plants operated at about 73 percent capacity
hydroelectric plants at 29 percent capacity
natural gas from 16 to 38 percent capacity
wind at 27 percent capacity
solar at 19 percent capacity
[Batteries not included but required for wind and solar. Why did wind and solar
operate so far below capacity? Simple: Wind power never works when the
wind isn't blowing. Solar only works at maximum during the noon hour.]
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» RE: Nuclear power is the greenest of all sources of electricity.
Posted by: Bradley
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Nov 6, 2008 9:23 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
should not be wasted. We don't recycle nuclear fuel because
spent fuel is valuable and people steal it. The place it went that it
wasn't supposed to go to is Israel. This happened in a small town
near Pittsburgh, PA circa 1970. A company called Numec was in
the business of reprocessing nuclear fuel. I almost took a job
there, designing a nuclear battery for a heart pacemaker. [The
army offered me more money to work on nuclear weapons
effects.] [A nuclear battery would have the advantage of lasting
many times as long as any other battery, eliminating many
surgeries to replace batteries.] Numec did NOT have a reactor.
Numec "lost" a quantity of reactor grade uranium. It wound up in
Israel. The Israelis have fueled both their nuclear power plants
and their nuclear weapons by stealing nuclear "waste." See:
Pittsburghlive
It could work for any other country, such as Iran or the United
States. It is only when you don't have access to nuclear "waste"
that you have to do the difficult process of enriching uranium,
unless you have a Canadian "CANDU" reactor or a British
Magnox reactor, both of which run on unenriched uranium.
Numec is no longer in business. The reprocessing of nuclear fuel
in the US stopped. That was the only politically possible solution
at that time, given that private corporations did the reprocessing.
My solution would be to reprocess the fuel at a Government
Owned Government Operated [GOGO] facility. At a GOGO
plant, bureaucracy and the multiplicity of ethnicity and religion
would disable the transportation of uranium to Israel or to any
unauthorized place. Nothing heavier than a secret would get out.
I have no financial stake in the nuclear power industry, and I
never have. Nobody is paying me to say this.
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» Ignorance is not bliss@this issue!
Posted by: crazy carlos
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Nov 8, 2008 9:03 PM
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Cravens, 2007 Finally a truthful book about nuclear power. Gwyneth Cravens is
a former anti-nuclear activist.
Page 140: "Troublemakers know we humans instinctively tend to" think of the
worst case as the prediction. People think the false urban legends about
Chernobyl are the norm. [Human instincts were evolved over the past 400
Million years of pre-stone-age. Human instincts are no longer applicable, but,
without training as a scientist, most people operate instinctively. Your instincts,
and mine, are just plain wrong.] Probabilistic Risk Assessment is a much better
method of making decisions, but it requires a lot of science, math and computer
time. We have accumulated 12 Thousand reactor years of safe operation.
[Chernobyl is unlike any reactor in the western world. American reactors can
NOT do what Chernobyl did.]
Page 187: The health effects of the Three Mile Island meltdown were
psychological.
Page 197: "If you live within fifty miles of a coal-fired plant, you're exposed to
0.03 millirem a year. Living near a nuclear plant exposes you to 0.009 millirem a
year." "Those [soft coal burning] plants give off four hundred times more radio
nuclides a year than a nuclear plant-one to four millirem." "In the United States in
1999, coal combustion produced over 1,000 tons of uranium and 2,500 tons of
thorium. This is enough fissile material to exceed the amount consumed by all the
nuclear power reactors in the country in a year. After World War II, when
scientists believed uranium to be rare, they considered extracting it from coal fly
ash."
Page 249: "The manufacture of photovoltaic panels requires highly toxic heavy
metals, gasses, and solvents that are carcinogenic. ........ If a residential fire burns
a solar panel, people would be at risk for exposure to toxic vapors and smoke, ... .
If modules are dumped into municipal landfills, then heavy metals such as arsenic
and lead can leach into the soil and water table. Hundreds of thousands of years
from now, some of those substances will still not have decayed: their life spans are
essentially eternal."
Page 269: "[E]very day the collective households and industries of America
throw away nearly a million tons of garbage containing toxic heavy metals and
dangerous chemicals, as well as plastics that will never break down. That garbage
will be our culture's real legacy, enduring for millions of years after all the present
nuclear waste has decayed."
Page 290: There is a mistake: She says that the Waste Isolation Pilot Plant in
New Mexico is the only nuclear waste repository in operation. France has one.
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Posted by: mutualaid on Nov 10, 2008 7:19 PM
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McKibben calls for 350ppm reduction in atmospheric carbon;
Van Jones calls for obama, 'following 1Sky's lead, the forty-fourth U.S. president should stand before the American people vowing to enact policies that will: (1) create five million green jobs as a part of a plan to conserve 20 percent of our energy by 2015; (2) freeze climate pollution levels now, then cut them to at least 25 percent below 1990 levels by 2020 and 80 percent by 2050; and (3) ban the construction of new coal plants that emit global-warming pollution, promoting renewable energy instead.'
are these not much different in the time frame and targets they propose? Is Van Jones' proposal not much more politically expedient rather than scientifically grounded (as per James Hansen's prognosis)?
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» RE: Why is Van Jones recommended by Bill McKibben?
Posted by: CosmoViking
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Posted by: jimidee on Nov 12, 2008 8:18 AM
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Posted by: CosmoViking on Nov 13, 2008 2:59 AM
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This is because of our relative position to the Galactic Plane (or "the dark rift") which we are passing thorugh in this time. Remarkably, the crescenso of this "passage" was accurately calculated by the Mayans (with a margin of +/-1 day) and the propagation of gravity waves from the center of the galaxy are at their maximum in this region of space.
Thus, the is increased tidal forces on ALL bodies in the Solar System, which generates heat between the mantle and crust of the Earth, is putting pressure on the heliospehere (the NASA probe) and could eventually trigger a physical pole shift with lots and lots of earthquakes and massive loss of life.
I can't tell you how much I hope the models predicting this gravitational interaction are WRONG because if they are right, this will be much worse that any politician will tell you. It so bad someone might decide to bury a safe supply of all agricultural seeds inside a muntain.
Oh wait, they did that in Spitsberg already.
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Posted by: maxpayne on Nov 13, 2008 5:23 AM
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Posted by: isoptera@mchsi.com on Nov 13, 2008 8:41 AM
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Increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide is undoubtedly increasing climate warmth somewhat. However I suspect that as great an affect on warmth is the baring of soil by increase in annual crop acreage, roads, buildings, grazing, and desertification currently. You may see an article that briefly discusses this and gives some solutions in more detail in http://charles_w.tripod.com/climate.html .
Sincerely, Charles Weber
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Posted by: erikleaver on Nov 13, 2008 9:45 AM
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Video includes:
* Janet Redman, Researcher, Sustainable Energy and Economy Network, IPS
* Brent Blackwelder, President, Friends of the Earth US
* James Barrett, Executive Director, Redefining Progress
* Arjun Makhijani, President, Institute for Energy and Environmental Research
http://video.google.com
/videoplay?docid=-3448731212428095912&hl=en
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Posted by: D. Shenary on Nov 13, 2008 10:05 AM
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» RE: High Level Nuclear Waste
Posted by: Life of Illusion
» RE: High Level Nuclear Waste
Posted by: maxpayne
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Posted by: Knot_Rich on Nov 13, 2008 10:50 AM
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I need a beer.
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Posted by: joeocho88 on Nov 13, 2008 4:35 PM
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Read the stats on how much energy Mister GORE's house and lifestyle really requires. He seems like another one of those hypocritical limosine liberal who is going to tell us common serfs what to do while he and his elite pals continue to live in luxury and tax the rest of us to PAY FOR IT!
Like the PIGS in George Orwell's " Animal Farm "concluded: "SOME ANIMALS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS!"
And now we have the Academic Shuffle where those of us who are less educated ( and, thus, incapable of intelligent contemplation and analysis of a line of **** when we hear it)
are supposed to be allowed to have our opinions count for nought because we do not have an intimidating string of letters signifying graduate degrees after our names...
And everyone who wants grant money, publishing priorities in a publish or perish world, tenure and all of the other perks that come with ACADEMIA had better fall in line with the other sheeple in the land of ivy!
And the official line now happens to be GLOBAL WARMING-- which it is NOT!
There is a very real prospect of a new Ice Age instead.
When these guys get their homes foreclosed on, they MAY have the opportunity to find out for themselves this winter if there is global warming or not.
I KNOW THAT YOU GUYS HAVE TO PUBLISH OR PERISH BUT MUST YOU KEEP PUTTING SUCH AN IDIOTIC HOAX OF GLOBAL WARMING ONTO THE GENERAL POPULACE!
I AM NOT BUYING THIS "SACK OF SCHTUFF".. I AM NOT SAYING THAT YOU ARE LIARS BUT TO COME TO SUCH INANE AND INSANE CONCLUSIONS BELIES WHAT ACADEMIA is supposed to be about.
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Posted by: SbgBJ on Nov 14, 2008 4:57 AM
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"You're entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own set of facts."
If you knew ANYthing about sound science or about the vast majority of venerated scientists who have been warning us about this very trend since the 1970s(!), you'd cease and desist with your "This is so terrifying, I have to kill (or at least shout down) the messenger" hysteria, and instead roll up your sleeves and get to work for the sake of those you care about.
Get your head on straight, get informed and then GET WITH THE PROGRAM!
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Posted by: SbgBJ on Nov 14, 2008 5:09 AM
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And when, for example, temperate Europe is no longer warmed by the Gulf Stream enough to maintain its climate, it cools, the ever-lengthening winter begins and the polar ice begins to extend southward and your ice age is in full swing.
The science is out there for the learning... unfortunately there is a lot to read and WEEP about on this topic. The question is, what are we gonna DO about it?!
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