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Environment

What Is this "Clean Coal" Obama and McCain Support?

By Tara DePorte, AlterNet. Posted October 31, 2008.


A look at whether "clean coal" is actually clean, how the technology works, and whether it is a climate crisis cure.
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Both Presidential Candidates Obama and McCain have emphasized the need for Energy Reform as we face climate change, a sinking economy, and rising fuel costs. In a country where 85% of energy demands are from fossil fuels (oil, coal and gas), coal and "clean coal" are making a rhetoric comeback this election. However, the burning of coal has proven one of the leading human-based causes of global climate change due to resulting carbon dioxide emissions, let alone a diversity of air pollutants.

The Obama Energy Plan proposes to "develop and deploy clean coal technology." McCain's energy plan, "The Lexington Project," commits to "$2 billion annually to advancing clean coal technologies." As the candidates talk about "clean coal," alternative energy, and energy independence, what's the science behind the plans? In this article we'll look into one of the more environmentally controversial options that has been put forth by the two candidates and try to help you decide how much of our nation's energy plan we wanted devoted to "clean coal".

Coal and its byproducts are everywhere -- in plastics, tar, fertilizer, steel and as the energy source for major industries such as paper and cement. In the U.S., however, over 90% of coal is used for electricity generation, resulting in 83% of carbon dioxide emission from the power sector. Coal is burned in power plants to create steam, thereby powering turbines and generating both electricity and a diversity of harmful air pollutants. No matter how you look at it, there isn't much clean about coal. The extraction and burning of coal is considered the dirtiest of all fossil fuels, including oil and gas. So, what is this new, innovative and so-called "clean coal"?

Unfortunately, no one has discovered a new form of coal -- the black rock composed of carbon or hydrocarbons that is intensively mined throughout the world. The dangerous misnomers "clean coal" or "clean coal technology" are not about finding a cleaner form of fuel, instead they describe the reduction of air pollution from coal-burning power plants. For instance, some "clean coal technology" works to boost power plant efficiency in converting coal to energy, others physically filter emissions before release, and others are being developed to capture emissions upon release from the plants.

With each of these much less-than-perfect technologies, there's a diversity of research and development, money and time, and effectiveness in curbing coal's environmental and health impacts. Below you will find a sampling of "clean coal technologies" and some insights into their pros and cons:

Cleaning up the power plants: Scrubber and Increased Efficiency: Since the 80's, the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) has been working to decrease particulate emissions, mercury, sulfur and nitrogen from coal-burning plants -- all materials that contribute greatly to air and water pollution. "Scrubbers" are brushes and filters that are installed in smoke flues of coal-burning facilities, which physically remove some emissions' components. The reduction of these emissions has shown some success due to increased scrubber technology, where smoke stacks have increased cleaning or screening mechanisms on them, and some other "clean coal technology" methods. Unfortunately, greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide have proven to be more difficult, energy and cost intensive to reduce at the source.

Gasification: Integrated gasification combined cycle or IGCC gets to the coal before it's burned. According to the DOE, the process uses steam and hot pressurized air or oxygen to force coal particles apart, thereby resulting in carbon monoxide and hydrogen. This mix is cleaned and burned to make electricity with subsequent heat being used for powering steam turbines. Some good things about IGCC are that there is a biproduct of hydrogen that can be used in developing hydrogen fuel cells. Additionally, the process of gasification can also be used for biomass and other "renewables" technology. Alternatively, gasification technology is still quite expensive and not considered economically viable on mass scales.

Carbon sequestration or Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS). The basics of CCS are to capture carbon out of the air and to put it somewhere else. The methodology behind, and storage sites, vary and include underground storage, ocean storage, creating carbonate rock out of the carbon dioxide and others.

In a 2008 interview with Klaus Lackner, Columbia University Ewing-Worzel Professor of Geophysics and one of the foremost CCS scientists remarked, "The challenge is capture, not storage." He continued, "Our goal is to take a process that takes 100,000 years and compress it into 30 minutes." One of the good things about CCS is that it can help clean up the mess that we've gotten ourselves into in terms of carbon emissions already in the air. Many do question the long-term effectiveness and safety of storing this carbon in systems that aren't used to having it there. Furthermore, although leaps and bounds have been made in past years in capturing CO2 from the air, the process is still costly and many estimate that the technology will not be ready for large-scale capture for many years to come.

With goals of zero-emissions coal power plants, the U.S. has spent over $2.5 billion since 2001 in research and development for "clean coal technology." Unfortunately, none of the options on the table actually help coal--as a whole--become any cleaner. A misnomer at best, "clean coal technology" is key to the cleanup of existing coal-powered facilities, but it's a long shot from the clean energy bill of health. There are some promising technologies being tested and applied within the "clean coal technology" umbrella, such as those addressing "end of the pipe" issues with the burning of the most abundant of fossil fuels.

However, few address the issues of coal extraction and its' environmental and health impacts and none are currently viable at a mass scale. Perhaps if the Presidential Candidates start referring to it as "not quite as dirty once you burn it coal technology," voters would have a better idea of what to expect in the upcoming new energy plans.

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As With All Other Pollution Problems
Posted by: Last Chance on Oct 31, 2008 6:15 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's not the pollution itself that is so damaging, it's the ever-growing MASS of it from an ever-growing industrial complex for an ever-growing population. Every year more people need electricity and gas, so every year more coal-fired power plants are built and more oil wells are drilled, and more toxic smoke is spewed up into the air, more garbage is dumped in land fills and in the oceans, and more people get sick.

But if the human population were peacefully reduced to a stable number, we could recycle 99% of whatever waste and garbage we produced, including smoke stack emissions, and the 1% that got away would be easily absorbed by a vast and healthy wilderness environment. What is that stable number the Earth can support? It would depend on each bioregion and watershed, and that should be a major discussion of civilized peoples around the World.

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» RE: Clean Coal, isn't... Posted by: jvaljon1
» Hydrogen is not a SOURCE of energy. Posted by: AsteroidMiner
COAL cinders and ashes are RADIOACTIVE WASTE
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Oct 31, 2008 5:33 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Coal is almost pure carbon, except for the URANIUM, ARSENIC, LEAD,
MERCURY, Antimony, Cobalt, Nickel, Copper, Selenium, Barium, Fluorine,
Silver, Beryllium, Iron, Sulfur, Boron, Titanium, Cadmium, Magnesium,
Calcium, Manganese, Vanadium, Chlorine, Aluminum, Chromium, Molybdenum
and Zinc that are coal's impurities. Coal smoke and cinders are commercially
viable ORE for the above elements. Coal also contains organic hydrocarbons.
Chinese industrial grade coal is sometimes stolen by peasants for cooking. The
result is that the whole family dies of arsenic poisoning because Chinese
industrial grade coal contains large amounts of arsenic. Coal varies a lot.
You have to analyze it not only mine by mine but even lump by lump.
Reference:
OUR NUCLEAR FUTURE:
THE PATH OF SELECTIVE IGNORANCE
by Alex Gabbard
Oak Ridge National Laboratory
Oak Ridge, TN
Selections from the 19th Annual Conference
SOUTHERN FUTURE SOCIETY
March 14,15,16, 1996
Nashville, Tennessee

Published by the
SOUTHERN FUTURE SOCIETY
1996
Edited by Jack D. Arters, Ed.D.
Conference Director
The truth is, all natural rocks contain most natural elements. Coal is a rock.
The average concentration of uranium in coal is 1 or 2 parts per million. Illinois
coal contains up to 103 parts per million uranium. A 1000 million watt coal
fired power plant burns 4 million tons of coal each year. If you multiply 4
million tons by 1 part per million, you get 4 tons of uranium. Most of that is
U238. About .7% is U235. 4 tons = 8000 pounds. 8000 pounds times .7% =
56 pounds of U235. An average 1000 million watt coal fired power plant puts
out 56 to 112 pounds of U235 every year. There are only 2 places the uranium
can go: Up the stack or into the cinders.
Since a reactor full fuel load is around 11 tons of 2% U235 and 98% U238, and
one load lasts about 10 years, and what one coal fired power plant puts into the
air and cinders fully fuels a nuclear power plant.
Compare 4 Million tons per year with 1.1 tons per year. 1.1 divided by 4 Million
= 2.75 E -7 = .000000275 =.0000275%. Remember that only 2% of that is
U235. The nuclear power plant needs ~44 pounds of U235 per year. The coal
fired power plant burns coal by the trainload. The nuclear power plant consumes
U235 in such small quantities yearly that you could carry that much weight in a
briefcase.
See also: ORNL Review

Coal is a $100 Billion per year industry in the US alone. That is why stopping
coal is going to be difficult.

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Tara DePorte, "scrubbers" doesn't mean "brushes."
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Oct 31, 2008 8:37 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Scrubbers" means another version of "filters." Since you are a
journalist, I suggest you take yourself on some trips to some
power plants of all types. WHEN you get back you will be in a
much better position to tell us all about it. A little googleing
would also help.

From: http://www.tfhrc.gov/
hnr20/recycle/waste/fgd1.htm
"wet scrubber flue gas desulfurization (FGD) systems. These
systems are designed to introduce an alkaline sorbent consisting of
lime or limestone (primarily limestone) in a spray form into the
exhaust gas system of a coal-fired boiler. The alkali reacts with the
SO2 gas and is collected in a liquid form as calcium sulfite or
calcium sulfate slurry. The calcium sulfite or sulfate is allowed to
settle out as most of the water is recycled."

From: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4762686.html
"1. A scrubber module for simultaneous removal of fly ash and
sulfur dioxide from flue gas, comprising:
a tank having upper and lower ends, the lower end of said tank
being capable of being filled with aqueous absorbent; "

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Tara DePorte, how are they going to SAFELY sequester CO2 forever?
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Oct 31, 2008 9:05 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And why should those CO2 sinks be used for CO2 from power plants when we
need them for other industrial processes? Yes, I have heard a little about chemical
reactions between the CO2 and the rock, but you should tell us more.
Carbon Capture and Storage [sequestration] has a fatal flaw: "the capacity to SAFELY trap and store the CO2." There is no safe way to confine trillions of tons of CO2 at high pressure for ever. For Ever is a lot longer than the 100000 years that people want nuclear "waste" to be stored. The CO2 WILL leak out and suffocate millions of people. CO2 is denser than air and displaces air at ground level. CO2 has caused suffocation in Africa. See:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1155057.stm

"Cameroon's 'killer lake' degassed"
"More than 1,700 people died after deadly gases spewed from Lake Nyos 15 years ago. "
"In August 1986, the lake released a cloud of carbon dioxide which hugged the ground and flowed down surrounding valleys to suffocate thousands of local villagers and animals.

The rare phenomenon also occurred at Lake Monoun in the same volcanic zone two years earlier killing 34 people. "

The CO2 storage facilities proposed by Big Coal, besides being prone to leak, will be a target for terrorists. A terrorist has only to cause a leak to kill more people than a nuclear bomb would. Leaks are very easy to cause in high pressure containers. CO2 storage is a silent disaster waiting to happen.

IF a SAFE way to store CO2 forever is ever proven, it should be used to store CO2 from industrial processes for which we cannot find substitutes. We have a substitute for coal fired power plants, called nuclear power plants. Nuclear power is the safest source of electricity, bar none. Nuclear power is also the cheapest, bar none and the cleanest, bar none. Spent nuclear fuel should be recycled, not wasted. We have spent the last 60 years working on reactor safety. Coal contains uranium. Carbon capture and storage should be reserved for making concrete. The first step in making concrete is to heat limestone [calcium carbonate CaCO3] to drive off the CO2 leaving CaO Calcium Oxide. Carbon Capture and Storage should be reserved for the CO2 produced in this first step in concrete making and other industrial processes for which there are no substitutes. Remember, we have to lower our CO2 output by 90% by 2050 in spite of a growing population and growing prosperity in India and China.

I have no financial or other interest in nuclear power and no connection with the nuclear power industry.

Reference: "Power to Save the World; The Truth About Nuclear Energy" by Gwyneth Cravens, 2007 Finally a truthful book about nuclear power. Gwyneth Cravens is a former anti-nuclear activist.

Reference: "Environmentalists for Nuclear Energy", by B. Comby
English edition, 2001, 345 pp. (soft cover), 38 Euros
TNR Editions, 266 avenue Daumesnil, 75012 Paris, France;
ISBN 2-914190-02-6
order from: http://www.comby.org/livres/livresen.htm
Read a review of this book by the American Health Physics Society at:
http://www.comby.org/media/
articles/articles.in.english/
HealthPhysics-NUC-July2002.htm

www.ecolo.org
Association of Environmentalists For Nuclear Energy [EFN]

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Neither Obama nor McCain got it right. CO2 production must be reduced 90% by 2050. There are no better candidates.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Oct 31, 2008 9:34 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Global Warming can lead to Hydrogen Sulfide gas coming out of
the oceans. Hydrogen Sulfide gas will Kill all people. Homo
Sap will go EXTINCT unless drastic action is taken NOW.

October 2006 Scientific American

"EARTH SCIENCE
Impact from the Deep
Strangling heat and gases emanating from the earth and sea, not
asteroids, most likely caused several ancient mass extinctions.
Could the same killer-greenhouse conditions build once again?
By Peter D. Ward
downloaded from:

Scientific American

....................Most of the article omitted......................
But with atmospheric carbon climbing at an annual rate of 2 ppm
and expected to accelerate to 3 ppm, levels could approach 900
ppm by the end of the next century, and conditions that bring
about the beginnings of ocean anoxia may be in place. How soon
after that could there be a new greenhouse extinction? That is
something our society should never find out."

Press Release
Pennsylvania State University
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Monday, Nov. 3, 2003
downloaded from:
PennState

"In the end-Permian, as the levels of atmospheric oxygen fell and
the levels of hydrogen sulfide and carbon dioxide rose, the upper
levels of the oceans could have become rich in hydrogen sulfide
catastrophically. This would kill most of the oceanic plants and
animals. The hydrogen sulfide dispersing in the atmosphere would
kill most terrestrial life."

www.astrobio.net is a NASA web zine. See:

Astrobiology 1

Astrobiology 2

Astrobiology 3

Astrobiology 4

These articles agree with the first 2. They all say 6 degrees C or
1000 parts per million CO2 is the extinction point.

The global warming is already 1.3 degree Farenheit. 11 degrees
Farenheit is about 6 degrees Celsius. The book "Six Degrees" by
Mark Lynas agrees. If the global warming is 6 degrees
centigrade, we humans go extinct. See:
Six Degrees

"Under a Green Sky" by Peter D. Ward, Ph.D., 2007.
Paleontologist discusses mass extinctions of the past and the one
we are doing to ourselves.

OIL SHALE, TAR SANDS AND COAL MUST BE LEFT IN
THE GROUND TO AVOID THE EXTINCTION OF US
HUMANS.
We have to convert to plug-in hybrid cars so that electricity made
by low-CO2 methods powers most of our driving. Nuclear power
produces the least CO2 of ANY source of electricity.
32 countries have nuclear power plants. Only 9 have the bomb.
The top 4 producers of CO2 all have nuclear power plants, coal
fired power plants and nuclear bombs. They are the USA, China,
India and Russia. Reducing CO2 production by 90% by 2050
requires drastic action in the USA, China, India and Russia.
Coal, oil shale and tar sands must be left untouched in the ground.

I have no connection to the nuclear power industry.

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What the coal companies know that Tara DePorte doesn't:
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Oct 31, 2008 10:59 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As long as you keep messing around with wind, solar, geothermal and wave
power, the coal industry is safe. There is no way wind, solar, geothermal and
wave power can replace coal, and they know it. If you quit being afraid of
nuclear, the coal industry is doomed. Every time you argue in favor of wind,
solar, geothermal and wave power, or against nuclear, King Coal is happy.
ONLY nuclear power can put coal out of business. Nuclear power HAS put coal
out of business in France. France uses 30 year old American technology. So
here is the deal: Keep being afraid of all things nuclear and die either when [not
if] civilization collapses or when H2S comes out of the ocean and Homo
"Sapiens" goes extinct. OR: Get over your paranoia and kick the coal habit and
live. Which do you choose? I put quotation marks around "Sapiens" because it
is not clear that most of us have enough brains to avoid extinction when it is
clearly predicted and the safe path has been pointed out. Nuclear is the safe path.

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Neither Obama nor McCain know anything about energy.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Nov 1, 2008 10:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama's degrees are in political "science" and law. I guess that McCain went to
the Navy school for airplane pilots. Can you tell me what McCain studied if this
is wrong? None of those schools teach you what energy is, never mind even the
"engineering and science core curriculum," never mind a degree in a hard science
or engineering. Their so-called "plans" are nothing more than restatement of the
popular but mistaken notions of their constituents. Their plans concern the near-
irrelevant. They concentrate on cars and fuel for cars, as if the price of gasoline
was the heart of the crisis. In the end, the price of gasoline is all but irrelevant. It
is burning coal to make electricity that is the largest single source of the CO2 that is
causing the global warming that can and will make us extinct.

Solar power satellites can indeed capture enough power from sunlight. The
problem is getting the power down to earth safely and without loosing almost all of
it. The problem is solved if the power is used in space, and that requires that most
people live in space.

Reference the NASA document at:
earthobservatory.nasa
"Wind energy has the potential to provide 10 to 15 percent of the world’s future
energy." But wind does not blow steadily, nor does it blow in convenient places,
nor is the energy thus gained storable without causing great pollution, if at all.
Wind is great if you want to sail in circles around Antarctica.
Solar power, like wind, is not going to work on the surface of the earth. Solar
power never works at night, nor is solar power storable in an efficient, economical
and pollution-free way. We do not have the room temperature superconductors
required to transmit DC all the way around the earth. Neither solar nor wind can
provide base load power because of their intermittent character. Neither solar nor
wind can make all of the fuel for cars unless and until we have battery technology
far better than we now have, or perhaps third rails on highways to recharge cars
on the move, or choose to use electricity in large amounts to convert some gasses
into a liquid fuel.

For an energy plan to be worthy of the name "plan," it has to replace the burning
of coal to make electricity by the year 2015 for everybody on earth. It has to
reduce our CO2 output by 90%, not 80% or 60% by 2050. The plan has to
replace 100% of the coal fired power plants in the next 7 years. Power cannot be
intermittent. We do not have time to do decades worth of research before we
start building something. The only source of electricity that meets these
requirements is nuclear. And by the way, nuclear power is the safest source of
energy available to us.

Natural positive feedbacks have already begun. If we do not act quickly enough,
saving ourselves by taking CO2 back out of the air becomes necessary, and doing
so is much more expensive.

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Why I voted for Obama rather than McCain:
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Nov 1, 2008 10:29 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Obama would require ALL CO2 production to fall under the
cap and trade scheme. McCain would give freebies to the worst
coal burning power plants.

2. Obama would ask advice from unbiased real scientists, such as
the government's own, professors at universities and Nobel
laureates. McCain would ask advice from coal company
executives.

3. Obama has an obvious IQ advantage over McCain and Biden
has a very obvious IQ advantage over Palin.

4. Sarah Palin is obviously, demonstrably insane. Anybody who
thinks the earth is only 6000 years old has got to be crazy or living
in the 17th century.

5. If we don't take drastic action immediately, civilization will fall
when food production becomes impossible in the American
midwest. 99.99% of us will die in that fall, including YOU. It is
obvious from the above that McCain will not take the action
necessary. Obama will become a convert to my way of thinking
when he gathers his brain trust. McCain will never gather any
truly independent experts. Palin will take us backward and into
destruction.

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before we go all partisan..
Posted by: zipper696 on Nov 2, 2008 1:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Quote:
"The Obama Energy Plan proposes to "develop and deploy clean coal technology." McCain's energy plan, "The Lexington Project," commits to "$2 billion annually to advancing clean coal technologies."
------------------------------

So before we jump all over either candidate for bandying about the mantra "clean coal" it's clear that both are talking about budgeting to develop new techniques and processes to make "clean coal" a reality.
Nothing is impossible, especially if you let loose a bunch of R&D scientists with a huge budget, so let's not write off coal as a "no way" choice, just yet.

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» Correct - Big Coal owns both parties Posted by: MartianBachelor
CO2 is not a problem
Posted by: Judy Cross on Nov 4, 2008 12:08 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anybody still worried about CO2 is obviously in a trance. Wakey, wakey.

Global Cooling is Here
Evidence for Predicting Global Cooling for the Next Three Decades

by Prof. Don J. Easterbrook,
Department of Geology, Western Washington University
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=10783
Introduction
"Despite no global warming in 10 years and recording setting cold in 2007-2008, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climatic Change (IPCC) and computer modelers who believe that CO2 is the cause of global warming still predict the Earth is in store for catastrophic warming in this century. IPCC computer models have predicted global warming of 1° F per decade and 5-6° C (10-11° F) by 2100 (Fig. 1), which would cause global catastrophe with ramifications for human life, natural habitat, energy and water resources, and food production. All of this is predicated on the assumption that global warming is caused by increasing atmospheric CO2 and that CO2 will continue to rise rapidly."

Science is never "settled" A false consensus has been generated and unless we all reexamine our assumptions, there will be grave repercussions for economies and therefore individuals.

This is obviously ot a left/right issue, since McCain is onside, and brokerage houses are salivating over trading carbon credits.

I remember my folks saying years ago that "someday they will figure out a way to tax our breathing".

Well, they just did!

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RE: CO2 and you are the problem Judy
Posted by: Judy Cross on Nov 4, 2008 1:59 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You are dreadfully misinformed. For instance did you know that the Sunarban area is in a delta on a subducting tectonic plate?

The arctic warms every 65-80 years. It is cyclical.
Proof it has happened before. Both the Danes and the Russians have historical evidence of periodic Arctic warming
http://gustofhotair.blogspot.com/2008/03/
novermber-1922-arctic-warmth-vanishing.html
November 2, 1922
Arctic Ocean Getting
Warm; Seals Vanish
And Icebergs Melt*

(By the Associated Press)

The Arctic ocean is warming
up, icebergs are growing scarcer
and in some places the seals are
finding the waters too hot, ac-
cording to a report to the Com-
merce Department yesterday
from Consul Ifft, at Bergen ,
Norway .

Reports from fishermen, seal
hunters and explorers, he
declared, all point to a radical
change in climatic conditions
and hitherto unheard-of tem-
peratures in the Arctic zone.
Exploration expeditions report
that scarcely any ice has been
met with as far north as 81
degrees 29 minutes. Soundings
to a depth of 3.100 meters
showed the gulf stream still very
warm.

Great masses of ice have
been replaced by moraines of
earth and stones, the report
continued, while at many points
well known glaciers have entirely
disappeared. Very few seals and
no white fish are being found in
the eastern Arctic, while vast
shoals of herring and smelts,
which have never before
ventured so far north, are being
encountered in the old seal
fishing grounds.

Since it has happened before, warming is obviously not an emergency.
Less Ice In Arctic Ocean 6000-7000 Years Ago
ScienceDaily (Oct. 20, 2008) — Recent mapping of a number of raised beach ridges on the north coast of Greenland suggests that the ice cover in the Arctic Ocean was greatly reduced some 6000-7000 years ago. The Arctic Ocean may have been periodically ice free.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/
releases/2008/10/081020095850.htm

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Remember this, there is no such thing as "clean coal."
Posted by: Charlow on Nov 4, 2008 1:25 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Clean Coal" is a phrase dreamed up by the coal industry's P.R. experts. As you may recall, advertisements promoting this notion have been pervasive on television over the past couple of years, and have definitely stepped up with the Presidential debates, the Olympics, etc.

Even IF every pollutant were to be scrubbed from the smokestacks of coal-fired power plants, energy from coal would still be dirty. Even if Carbon Sequestration technology ever becomes possible and affordable, energy from coal would be dirty. Of the two technologies, sequestration is the one that is most speculative. The Department of Energy recently cancelled the construction of what was to have been the first coal plant in the country, in Illinois, which would have been an experimental site for sequestration. The plant was cancelled because it was too expensive. So, why would we think that it might be less expensive at some date in the future? I know of no logic that would support that idea.

Carbon Sequestration is not simply removing carbon from the air, its main feature with coal is to remove the carbon dioxide emissions from the combustion gases that now goes up into the air, and then, permanently "sequester" them in geological formations so that they do not add to global warming.

Why would coal still be dirty even if scrubbing and sequestration were perfected and affordable? The answer to that is in how coal is mined. The preferred technique is now called mountain top removal. This sort of mining is devastating the land in West Virginia and Kentucky and more and more of it will be required if we continue to rely on coal for our electricity or for gaseous fuels.

So, remember this, there is no such thing as clean coal.

Al Gore has begun to call energy from coal, oil shale, and tar sands "sub-prime" energy.

We have had a vast array of renewable technologies sitting on the shelf for over 30 years, since Ronald Reagan stopped their deployment. These technologies have been ready all this time to be implemented and commercialized on a large scale. So, why should we settle for sub-prime energy, when we can go directly for the gold standard -- an economy based on renewables instead of fossil fuels?

This is, of course, very political. There is coal in Illinois, and across most of the Great Plains States, as well as Appalachia. So, there is great pressure on the politicians from those states to support expansion of its use. We must resist this and spread the word to everyone you know, there is no such thing as clean coal. It is sub-prime energy. End of Story.

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Coal doesn't have to be mined anymore to harvest its energy
Posted by: Judy Cross on Nov 4, 2008 2:14 PM   
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Underground coal gasification could be used instead of knocking off the tops of mountains or sending people underground.
http://www.worldcoal.org/pages/content/index.asp?PageID=425

The drive to knock out coal is driven by the nuclear industry, which also has provided many of the names involved in the demonization of a gas of life, CO2.

We are a carbon based life form. The more there is in the atmosphere, the better plants grow. 1200 ppm would actually be very beneficial for Earth, that is the point to which many commercial greenhouses are deliberately enriched.

CO2 has a life of only 5 years in the atmosphere before it is recycled. It does not build up and since it is only found at 385 Part Per Million,
Worrying about it is like watching out for 39 cents out of $10,000. Silly?

Have you been conned?

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Coal contains: URANIUM, ARSENIC, LEAD, MERCURY,
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Nov 9, 2008 3:55 AM   
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Coal contains: URANIUM, ARSENIC, LEAD, MERCURY,
Antimony, Cobalt, Nickel, Copper, Selenium, Barium, Fluorine,
Silver, Beryllium, Iron, Sulfur, Boron, Titanium, Cadmium,
Magnesium, Thorium, Calcium, Manganese, Vanadium, Chlorine,
Aluminum, Chromium, Molybdenum and Zinc. There is so much
of these elements in coal that cinders and coal smoke are actually
valuable ores. We should be able to get all the uranium and
thorium we need to fuel nuclear power plants for centuries by
using cinders and smoke as ore. Remember that, to get a given
amount of energy, you need on the order of 100 MILLION
TIMES as much coal as uranium. That means the coal mine has
to be 100 million times larger than the uranium mine, not counting
the recycling of nuclear fuel. We can keep our mountains and
forests and our health by switching from coal to nuclear power.

Chinese industrial grade coal is sometimes stolen by
peasants for cooking. The result is that the whole family
dies of arsenic poisoning because Chinese industrial grade
coal contains large amounts of arsenic.

I have zero financial interest in nuclear power, and I never have
had a financial interest in nuclear power. My sole motivation in
writing this is to avoid extinction by H2S gas due to global
warming.

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Finding truth on the web:
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Nov 9, 2008 4:03 AM   
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Reference: "Web Dragons" by Witten, Gori and Numerico 2007.

The search engines do not understand the web pages they find for you. They are
just machines. They have no idea of whether or not the web pages they find tell
the truth. In the US, we have "freedom of speech," which means that nobody has
to prove that anything is true before publishing it. We also have a coal industry
that has a gross income of $100 BILLION per year. That $100 BILLION per year
could be easily sunk by the nuclear industry unless you can be persuaded that
nuclear power is dangerous. [The truth is that a coal fired power plant puts 100
times as much radiation into your environment as the nuclear power plant. The
truth is also that natural background radiation is 10 times what you get from a coal
fired power plant.] Do the coal companies have an incentive to lead you astray?
Yes. Is $100 BILLION per year enough incentive? Yes. Can the coal industry
afford to hire doctors, economists, environmentalists, website designers, computer
scientists, psychologists, advertising agencies, and lots of other people on $100
BILLION per year? Of course. Can the coal industry afford to set up hundreds
of web pages on hundreds of computers in hundreds of locations and "game" the
search engines on $100 BILLION per year? Yes. And they do.

How hard is it to find the truth on the web? Very hard. Most web sites have a
monetary reason for existing. People who know the truth and are willing to tell
you the truth don't have much economic reason to do so. It is hard to make money
by telling the truth. Nobody ever went broke by underestimating the intelligence
or overestimating the gullibility of the average person. So how are you going to
find out the truth for sure? There is only one way. You have to become a
scientist. You will have to spend a minimum of 4 years in college to get the
minimum degree, the B.S. You should really spend more like 15 years and get a
post doctoral degree.

THERE ARE ZERO HUMAN AUTHORITIES.
Scientists do not vote on what is the truth. There is only one vote and Nature
owns it. We find out what Nature's vote is by doing Scientific [public and
replicable] experiments. Scientific [public and replicable] experiments are the
only source of truth. [To be public, it has to be visible to other people in the
room. What goes on inside one person's head isn't public unless it can be seen on
an X-ray or with another instrument.]
Science is a simple faith in Scientific experiments and a simple absolute lack of
faith in everything else. Do not trust any human, not even yourself. Trust only
the experiments that you personally perform. Otherwise, you will be misled.

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Nuclear power is the safest kind, bar none.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Nov 9, 2008 4:25 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Deaths per terrawatt year [twy] for energy industries, including
Chernobyl. terra=mega mega

fuel......... ........fatalities... .....who......... .......deaths per twy
coal......... .........6400...... ......workers........... .........342
natural gas..... ..1200...... .....workers and public... ...85
hydro........ .......4000..... .......public............ ............883
nuclear........ .........31...... ......workers............ .............8

Nuclear power is proven to be the safest. Source: "The Revenge
of Gaia" by James Lovelock page 102. As you can see,
psychological problems are preventing the wider use of nuclear
power.

I have no connection with the nuclear power industry. I have
never had any connection with the nuclear power industry. I am
not being paid by anyone to post on Alternet. My sole motive is
to avoid death in the collapse of civilization and to avoid
extinction due to global warming.

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Founder & Chair
Posted by: Greenhouse Neutral Foundation on Nov 18, 2008 7:23 PM   
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As Chair & Founder of the Greenhouse Neutral Foundation and Author of ZERO Greenhouse Emissions - The Day the lights went out our Future World. www.strategicbookpublishing.com/ZEROGreenhouseEmissions.html
The common man needs these issues laid out in plain easy to understand language, in order that they may be engaged to become the parade that our global politicians will wish to walk in front of. In the book I put this clearly for them. I would have included and extract here but unfortunately space would not permit.

Bob Williamson

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