COMMENTS: 161
Why the Polls Drive Us Crazy (and Shouldn't)
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And a dark cloud of gloom descended over many of those hoping to bring an end to the Bush era. "We've seen this before," was a common sentiment. A reader recently sent me a story, written during the lead-up to the 2004 election, about Kerry's seemingly indomitable lead in the polls -- a lead similar to Barack Obama's 8-point (average) advantage in the horse race a few weeks ago.
Then, this week, the storm clouds parted and the sun shone down on progressive America as Obama seemingly regained his mojo. Now he has surged back into the lead!
This emotional roller coaster is bad for one's psychic health and entirely unwarranted. The bigger picture is this: For about 10 days during the past 10 months -- after Sarah Palin's introduction to the country but before Americans got a good look at her beliefs -- McCain inched ahead of Obama in the national head-to-heads. Now, the tide appears to be turning back in Obama's favor: As the electorate has gotten enough of a look at Palin to distrust her, her once-high approval numbers have taken a nosedive. And McCain continues to say brilliant things like the economy is fundamentally sound and he won't meet with the dastardly prime minister of Spain.
More to the point, the significance of those head-to-head polls -- the yardstick featured in so much political reporting -- is completely overblown. The reality is that nobody knows what's going to happen in November. It's an unprecedented election in two ways: a black man is vying to become the president of the United States; and in the midst of an economic meltdown, voters are feeling an unprecedented degree of pessimism about the direction the country is heading.
Clearly, there is reason to believe that the "Bradley effect" -- the historical fact that some of those who tell pollsters that they're ready to vote for a person of color won't -- will have an impact on the election. How big will that impact be? Nobody knows.
Just as clearly, Obama has inspired a massive groundswell of interest, particularly among younger voters. Will they vote in numbers we've never seen before? Nobody knows (many have only a cell phone, and cell phone users are rarely polled).
At the same time, we know that in times of pronounced pessimism, people tend to vote the ruling party out of office. Yet, John McCain has spent a career carefully nurturing an image of independence from his party. Will he overcome the tarnished Republican brand? Nobody knows.
Those uncertainties are what ultimately make the polls almost meaningless. Pollsters don't offer us their raw data; they weight their results in various ways -- by age, party identification, past voting records, etc., in order to make their samples conform more or less with past experience. In an election for which we essentially have no past experience, it all becomes much more art than science.
Consider how they did during the primaries. Through the first five months of this year, Zogby's polling was off by an average of almost 7 points, Fox News by 4 points and Survey USA by 4.5 points. Mason-Dixon's average error was more than 8 points, and Rasmussen was off by more than 7.
Don't get me wrong -- those national polls, taken as a whole, are a good indication of broad trends in the mood of the electorate and are not without value. But the reality is that the nationwide polls we see being released almost every day are a poor indicator of what will happen come November.
Remember that we don't vote for president in the United States -- we vote state by state for electors who vote for the president. As I write, new polls show Obama up by 9 points in Michigan, 5 points in Pennsylvania and a couple of points in Ohio -- all crucial swing states.
The problem is that it's costly to poll each and every state, so many of those electoral college maps one sees in various publications are based on "trend estimates" -- on statisticians essentially reading the tea leaves, and often doing so using stale data. Of the 12 states that are in play this year according to The Politico, only three have had polls of registered voters within the past week, and all three of them show Obama in the lead. (There are more recent polls of "likely voters," but pollsters' "likely voter" models are a source of quite a bit of controversy and should be taken with more than just a grain of salt until just before the election.)
The second reason is that modern elections in America are largely mechanical affairs. It's true that Americans are not as deeply divided on the issues as they are commonly portrayed in the "red states versus blue states" narrative, but they are sharply divided in terms of partisan loyalty, or at least they have been during the past few elections. That means that winning will often come down to which campaign can better motivate its respective ground troops in a handful of swing districts in a handful of swing states. Obama's chief strategist, David Plouffe, told the Los Angeles Times that he ignores the national polls almost entirely because the campaign's focus is on registration and turnout in the 18 states they identified as the battleground (which is now down to maybe 10). "We stay laser-focused on these two factors," he told the Times. That may have been a bit of bravado, but there's no question that the Obama campaign has put an enormous emphasis on local organizing. As Daniel Nichanian wrote recently, "It increasingly looks as though this close election may be determined by investments on the ground, in local precincts across the country, an area of the campaign that Barack Obama's organization and supporters have excelled at." Nichanian added: "But this is not the type of edge pollsters pick up on."
There's quite a bit happening that polls have a hard time tracking, and much of it should be encouraging for Obama's supporters. The partisan identification of voters in many swing states (which I should point out is a less-than-rock-solid indication of voting, but important nonetheless) is looking very good for the Dems. Consider this graphic from Brian Schaffner at Pollster.com:

(click for larger version)
Not all states keep track of these data, but in six of the seven states included in the analysis, Democratic registration is on the rise, while the number of Republican loyalists appears to be declining.
But even those numbers don't tell the whole story. As Time Magazine reported, younger voters -- people under 35 -- a demographic in which Obama beats the socks off of McCain, are registering in pretty significant numbers. In 10 of the swing states, more than half of all new registrants this year are under 35.
Also not necessarily reflected in the partisan breakdowns are new citizens who will be eligible to vote for the first time. In 2006, there were 15 million naturalized immigrants who were eligible to vote. A huge effort on the part of immigrant-rights groups is expected to raise that number by 10 percent in 2008. If they can pull of the feat, that would be 1.5 million new voters, many of whom are clustered in swing states like New Mexico, Nevada, Florida and Colorado -- each of which Bush won by less than 5 points in 2004. Among Latino voters, 40 percent of whom voted for George Dubya in 2004, the key question is whether McCain can overcome the Republican brand, now seen by many as a party dominated by nativists. A recent poll of "Hispanic" preferences in four key battleground states showed that Obama is doing better among that group than Kerry did in 2004, and by a significant margin.
The other part of that equation is whether and whose votes are being counted. There's quite a bit of agreement across the political spectrum that America's electoral system is deeply flawed, and whether one believes its biggest problems are hackable voting machines and Republican voter suppression or Democrats registering people who are ineligible to vote, the polls aren't going to say whether it will be a fair contest.
The takeaway from all this is that those inclined to mope when the polls don't look good -- especially the national polls -- shouldn't. There's no point, because they mean little. If one wants to see an end of the Bush era, or a continuation of it, a better use of one's time is to get involved. Drive an old lady to her polling place. Put in some hours at a phone bank.
This is an American election, and the party that does a better job motivating its loyalists -- and perhaps expanding their numbers -- and protecting their votes will win. You don't need a poll to tell you that.
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Posted by: Hans B on Sep 20, 2008 12:50 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And: David Plouffe is a genius.
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» "Progessive America"?
Posted by: Cathyc
» Why ignore polls? Its one way to express your displeasure....
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin on Sep 20, 2008 1:23 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Last night on Bill Maher's HBO "Real Time" show, ultraconservative writer Andrew Sullivan said Obama represented America's future as a more racially-mixed, diverse society while McCain appealed to people clinging to the past.
Simply put, young voters want Obama, older ones favor McCain. Who wins the election will depend on voter registration and turn-out.
Unfortunately, because America has so many voting-age bigots, McCain might just win in spite of his dimwitted, unqualified hockey mom running mate.
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» RE: Holland forgot one thing in his excellent piece: the "R" facter.
Posted by: The Old Hippie
» Great article, OH. Also depressing. If we can't trust the press -- FUCK IT!
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin
» That makes three of us, Lizmv. You, Old Hippie and me.
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin
» RE: And this 70 year old female
Posted by: Christie
» RE: And this 70 year old female
Posted by: Christie
» RE: And this 70 year old female
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» count me in-nm
Posted by: Timba
» RE: Holland forgot one thing in his excellent piece: the "R" facter.
Posted by: helenwheels
» Read my comment below about the Yahoo poll, helenwheels
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin
» Andrew Sullivan is an idiosyncratic crank, but good for him
Posted by: war_on_tara
» RE: Andrew Sullivan is an idiosyncratic crank, but good for him
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Andrew Sullivan is an idiosyncratic crank, but good for him
Posted by: war_on_tara
» RE: Andrew Sullivan is an idiosyncratic crank, but good for him
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» I don't care what Sullivan is --as long as he's against McCain and Palin.
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin
» Voting in America is like...
Posted by: Cathyc
» Oh,not to worry, Obama is the designated winner. I promise
Posted by: Prophit
» I hope you live up to your AlterNet user name, Prophit.
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin
» RE: I hope you live up to your AlterNet user name, Prophit.
Posted by: nochicagoboys
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Spot on Sep 20, 2008 2:37 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Obama can hang onto the message of change, and fend off the media's irrational acceptance of McCain as anything but a third-rate third-world puppet, he will win it all. It has become clear to anyone with money saved for retirement and everyone dependent on the economy for the survival of self and loved ones that unfettered capitalism leads to national ruin.
The remaining days of the Chicago school are numbered in the tens.
The New Depression began with the failure of Americans to meet their debt obligations. This administration's bailout and market regulation prevents investors from taking the fall for their recklessly risky positions or profiting from accurately valuing the stock market. No short selling? What will keep the prices honest?
I'm really scared about this one. I think they're trying to blow another bubble, but I'm not sure we have the breath.
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» RE: Armageddon!
Posted by: edgeofnowhere
» What about the rabbits, George?
Posted by: Cathyc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: The Old Hippie on Sep 20, 2008 2:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The polls mean what they mean, but only the final vote tally matters, and as it stands right now - The corporatists’ voting machines are still “allowed” to have full control over that, in most cases without a hardcopy backup...
Cynical? After four straight national elections proven to have been corrupted by their machines, left uncorrected, and still unpunished... Cynical? You’d better believe it.
“You Don’t Want It To Be True...”
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» RE: It’s Only Those That Count The Votes That Matter...
Posted by: setterwoman
» the repubs still own and program the voting machines . . .
Posted by: dustdevil
» Fool me twice?
Posted by: Cathyc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: brer on Sep 20, 2008 4:08 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've been polled THREE times in the last two weeks, and every time I lied through my teeth. One or two questions I answered truthfully, just to add to the confusion.
So, at least you can know that not all polls are totally truthful.
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» RE: brer
Posted by: GPFrank
» RE: brer
Posted by: GPFrank
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Karl.Ben on Sep 20, 2008 4:19 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The polls are pretty close for sure and go up and down more than the stock market did this week. So far it's 236 to 224 - the latest Zogby electoral count with Obama in the lead.. He lost ground and McCain surged.
Palin will level out as did Obama..They both busrt onto the scene as unkowns with little experience.
One thing I heard on Zogby's show that is a concern for Obama.. the Bradly effect. Obama's advisors seem to be telling him he is really lower than the polls indicate by at least 4 points due to this.
If this is infact true then places like NY, Pa, Ohio become a battleground..not good for Obama.
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» So what's your beef with Obama, Karl? Because he's black, a Democrat -- or both?
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin
» RE: So what's your beef with Obama, Karl? Because he's black, a Democrat -- or both?
Posted by: Karl.Ben
» RE: So what's your beef with Palin?
Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: So what's your beef with Obama, Karl? Because he's black, a Democrat -- or both?
Posted by: Timba
» My beef with Palin has nothing to do with gender. She's unqualified to be president -- PERIOD!
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin
» RE: My beef with Palin has nothing to do with gender. She's unqualified to be president -- PERIOD!
Posted by: aonghus36
» No, its because he simply hasn't got a clue what is going on.....
Posted by: Prophit
» Let me give you the URL to that article above, but you will...
Posted by: Prophit
» Democrats make the grave mistake on relying on polls and giving people a sense of mistrust about the
Posted by: maxpayne
» Actually, I saw Nader on the Ron Paul press conference....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Actually, I saw Nader on the Ron Paul press conference....
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: If I hear another Obama or Palin speech....
Posted by: progdem
» RE: If I hear another Obama or Palin speech....
Posted by: Karl.Ben
» RE: If I hear another Obama or Palin speech....**OBAMA TAKES NY**
Posted by: maribelle
Comments are closed-
Posted by: disc golf on Sep 20, 2008 4:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Great article and many smart readers. Let's hope Americans can "hang in there" for the next six weeks!
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» RE: That's right: The voting machines ARE corrupted!
Posted by: aonghus36
» "The voting machines ARE corrupted!" Hello? American society itself is TOTALLY corrupted!
Posted by: Cathyc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Beck on Sep 20, 2008 5:23 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Clearly, there is reason to believe that the "Bradley effect" -- the historical fact that some of those who tell pollsters that they're ready to vote for a person of color won't -- will have an impact on the election. How big will that impact be? Nobody knows." Sixth paragraph.
I agree that we should ignore them and report the comments that are psychotic, although alternet's bizarre system of reproducing the letters they give doesn't help. Most of the time, you can reproduce those letters but the system insists you didn't. And there seems to be no way to switch upper and lower cases (how can you tell a lower case "o" from upper case?) and make the weird system work.
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» The "Weird System"?
Posted by: Cathyc
» Good comments Cathyc...... someone doesn't agree or has a ...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: The "Weird System"? When you report a comment, you must reproduce a series of letters to send
Posted by: Beck
» RE: ignoring the crazy trolls and the trolls who don't even read the articles**ALTERNET TAKE NOTE**
Posted by: maribelle
Comments are closed-
Posted by: hollymoodyb on Sep 20, 2008 6:17 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» I promise, Obama will win the election, I know it for a fact.
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: I promise, Obama will win the election, I know it for a fact.
Posted by: amerimet
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Sep 20, 2008 6:18 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Also, notice that unlike the previous election Muslim American voters are not even being polled this time around. Also, for anyone living in the deep red states in the midwest, I've been told that these people are asked questions mainly about guns and abortion and nothing on Iraq or the economy. Can anyone from any of those states confirm this? If so, the Democrats had better get out there and stop allowing the media to dictate where they should campaign based on this phony polls. This is why I get angry when the party refuses to be itself and ignore these phony polls. There is no "liberal" media. There is only a rightwing media that is going out of its way to support John Mccain who strongly supported and campaigned for policies that would empower the rightwing media.
As Spot, GrantburkeVT, and boing007 have pointed out in other posts, we're going to have to go local and then work our ways up to the federal level on putting progressive/liberal independent/moderates in office. I have also stumbled across posts from zooeyhall and grantburkevt pointing out that even in FDR's time, major opposition and assassination attempts by rightwing militants were carried out despite the public demanding a change from the bankrupted "conservative" ideology to progressive/liberal populism. While I'm still pissed off at Obama for writing the base off, he has been campaigning surprisingly well and has even finally gotten the message that it's time to attack the ideology. The phony polls won't take those events into account and yet they'll ask people more about Sarah Palin than they will John Mccain.
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» RE: Most of these polls are actually PARTISAN RIGHTWING CORPORATE written and
Posted by: maxpayne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Sep 20, 2008 6:19 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» If you still think your vote counts, then by all means do all ...
Posted by: Prophit
» We need to eliminate the Electoral College
Posted by: kellysgarden
» That's for sure.
Posted by: maxpayne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Last Chance on Sep 20, 2008 6:34 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
2. IF the election could be managed honestly, Obama would win by a landslide.
But the opinion polls are slanted by Republican managers, and the last two elections were fixed by Republican state officials.
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» I said about 2 days before the republican convention that...
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: X-POLYGAMIST WIFE on Sep 20, 2008 7:02 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://bankingonheaven.com/
BANKING ON HEAVEN
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» Isn't the governor of your state trying to stop this madness?
Posted by: maxpayne
» And This concerns Polling and Elections? How?
Posted by: Stoney 12+1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Sep 20, 2008 7:18 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: One more thing. It looks like the Nader campaign is giving back some of our contributions. :(
Posted by: suckerbeagle
» RE: One more thing. It looks like the Nader campaign is giving back some of our contributions. :(
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: One more thing. It looks like the Nader campaign is giving back some of our contributions. :(
Posted by: amerimet
» RE: One more thing. It looks like the Nader campaign is giving back some of our contributions. :(
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: One more thing. It looks like the Nader campaign is giving back some of our contributions. :(
Posted by: babs
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Menopausal Mick on Sep 20, 2008 7:28 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Cynical?? Me?? Probably.
I am also working for Senator Obama's campaign in Missouri and I can tell you that even NOW there are people who believe that he is a Muslim. I had one gentleman tell me that he would NEVER vote for someone named Hussein.
You can't budge those people even if you point out that much of the media complained about his twenty year association with his CHRISTIAN pastor.
I am not allowed to try and talk logic to such bigotry. I merely thank them for their time and hang up.
Luckily, those calls are balanced by ones like the grandmother who asked if we had time to talk to her grandson who was aching to work for Senator Obama.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that we have a ton of work to do in a very little amount of time. We have to win by a margin that will be hard for voting machines to steal. We have to overcome bigotry and ignorance and electronic voting machines that Princeton University and others have proven to be totally hackable.
It appears to be an unsurmountable task but it is one that we MUST undertake. I believe it to be America's last chance to survive in any form that is recognizable to those of us old enough to remember a time when our constitution was cherished and protected by millions who took to the streets to challenge fascism.
Apparently, all the old hippies of my generation are dead. You young activists have to take up the torch and you have to do it NOW.
Please consider volunteering some time to Senator Obama's campaign today. You'll meet a lot of great people. It isn't all work. We usually have potluck dinners before we work the phone banks. The dinners have lively political discourse and allow the exchange of ideas among people committed to change the course of this country.
Years from now... will you be proud that you actually DID something to bring change or will you regret that you sat on the sidelines while fear and hate allowed the corporate takeover of the world's best hope... America.
Menopausal Mick
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» RE: Working the phones
Posted by: maxpayne
» America is the "world's best hope" ? Are you kidding!!!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: America is the "world's best hope" ? Are you kidding!!!
Posted by: Menopausal Mick
» Give him a chance. Geez ! America's not perfect but there's still room for improvement !
Posted by: maxpayne
» They are setting the stage to steal the 08 election right now
Posted by: cori
Comments are closed-
Posted by: surfreality on Sep 20, 2008 7:50 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
38 million tuned into Obama's speech in Denver. Of the 39 million who tuned into McCain how many were watching to contrast and compare?
( That exercise does not favor McCain )
These are real numbers. To me they look pretty good.
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Posted by: lifeaholic on Sep 20, 2008 8:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
HEAD OF VOTE COUNTING FIRM HAD SAID TO BUSH "I GUARANTEE YOU OHIO" HOW?
WILL NEXT PRESIDENT LET JUSTICE INVESTIGATE?
WE NEED TO SEE THE SOFTWARE USED TO COUNT THE VOTES.
WE NEED THE PROGRAM WRITERS UNDER OATH.
SHAME ON AMERICA
FROM 2000 WE NEED COUNTY REGISTARS (FLA) UNDER OATH TO EXPLAIN HOW ABSENTEE BALLOTS WERE DISTRIBUTED.
HOW A SERVICEMAN OVERSESE GOT TWO BALLOTS AND ONE GOT NONE. ONE REPUBLICAN ONE DEMOCRAT FROM SAME VOTING DISTRICT.
WE NEED UNDER OATH.
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» RE: KERRY IN OHIO
Posted by: Hans B
» RE: KERRY IN OHIO
Posted by: babs
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Sep 20, 2008 9:10 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Polls are the quarter we don't need to read,believe,or worry about. This is what we need to worry about;
Soon we are to elect a president. In the old days it was'nt much. We knew we were electing a puppet that had not alot of power to ruin all life. Today it's a little more important.
From the Oval Office today the person who sits in it has the power to nuke anyone at anytime,anywhere,just by calling them 'terrorists'. They can circumvent the Constitution and squash the Bill of Rights just to make sure you're a 'good American'.
We will be electing someone that has more power than any office held by any country we might call 'evil' or 'enemy'. There are no Peacemakers in the 'Media Campaigns' and the only poll we need to be concerned about is the one we're going to have to sit on.
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Posted by: GreyFoxThree on Sep 20, 2008 9:16 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jiff
Ultimate Anonymity
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Posted by: left-leaning-libertarian on Sep 20, 2008 9:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
GET INVOLVED! I'm on my county Democratic central committee and am, once again, serving as precinct captain (in spite of social anxiety issues). I'm looking to find ways to involve younger people, give them a stake in the process, even if it's something so unglamorous as canvasing voters or giving little old ladies rides to the polls. The way you WIN is by focusing on the practical nuts and bolts of voter turnout on the ground.
Volunteer to serve as a poll watcher or election monitor. Keep the process honest.
Knock on doors, help out at the phone bank, deliver yard signs, wear your Obama/Biden buttons and T shirts with pride and start conversations with voters! Don't assume that somebody won't vote for Obama because of their background etc.; leave no stone unturned!
Ignore the GOP trolls who try to stir up discontent and discouragement. They have NOTHIN' to run on and they damn well know it. When all the Obama supporters who aren't being reached by the pollsters come out on Nov. 4, those trolls will be BURIED in a landslide. . . and that will be sweet indeed!
So, to sum up:
DAMN THE TROLLS!
DAMN THE TORPEDOS!
FULL SPEED AHEAD!
NEVER GIVE UP!
NEVER SURRENDER!
NEVER DESPAIR!
YES WE CAN!
OBAMA/BIDEN '08
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» ELECTION DAY. Haha!!!
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: benhur on Sep 20, 2008 9:37 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Stay Calm?
Posted by: suckerbeagle
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Posted by: NoMcCainPalin on Sep 20, 2008 10:12 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
WASHINGTON (Sept. 20) - Deep-seated racial misgivings could cost Barack Obama the White House if the election is close, according to an AP-Yahoo News poll that found one-third of white Democrats harbor negative views toward blacks — many calling them "lazy," "violent" or responsible for their own troubles.
The poll, conducted with Stanford University, suggests that the percentage of voters who may turn away from Obama because of his race could easily be larger than the final difference between the candidates in 2004 — about two and one-half percentage points.
------------------------------------------------------------
If you think the last eight years under Bumbling Bush were bad, what until McKKKain gets into the Oval Office. There will be, I predict, blood in the streets.
Literally.
The GOP cannot not steal another election, this time with the help of bipartisan bigots, without there being severe repercussions -- from black, brown, yellow and white people who REALLY love America, including yours truly.
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» Give the streets a break
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: Dear Mr. Holland. Please write another article about the following AOL news report today.
Posted by: symcokid
» Sorry, symcokid. I should have included native Americans. Thanks for pointing that out.
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin
» RE: Dear Mr. Holland. Please write another article about the following AOL news report today.
Posted by: amerimet
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave on Sep 20, 2008 10:44 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think you guys like the polls that make Obama up and insult the same polls when they show Obama down. Very convienent.
Kinda like privacy is important unless it is Sahara Palin's private email account.
Real Princes here in liberal land.
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» "YOU guys"? And who are they, Ky Lake? -- people don't spread GOP bullshit like you do?
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin
» Shocking facts!
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Shocking facts!
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» That doesn't make Palin "clean".
Posted by: maxpayne
» Doesn't make her dirty either
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» You make no sense of yourself.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Shocking facts!
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Chill man!
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» But where is the outcry over Palins privacy?
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» Why should politicians such as Palin get "privacy" when the American people cannot?
Posted by: maxpayne
» SO you think only SOME people have a right to privacy?
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» If Palin wanted privacy, she shouldn't have accepted the VP pick.
Posted by: maxpayne
» Truly pathetic
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» When Palin Winds up on the "No Fly LIST" For Exercising Her Right to Free Speach!
Posted by: Stoney 12+1
» Are you accusing Obama of breaking into Silly Saraj's e-mail?
Posted by: Parcival01
» KY Lake Dave is just a partisan GOP troll. He's been "trained" to simply hate non-Republicans.
Posted by: maxpayne
» Me a hater?
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» Oh lord, let's get some things straight, shall we?
Posted by: maxpayne
» What no HUG?
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» You Want Me to Put My Arms Around Your Neck???!!!!!!
Posted by: Stoney 12+1
» RE: You Want Me to Put My Arms Around Your Neck???!!!!!!
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» most likely you are a middle-aged fat loser who still lives in his
Posted by: GrantBurkeVT
» KY Lake Dave is just trying to make up lies about "success" thinking anyone will buy his rubbish.
Posted by: GrantBurkeVT
» TOTAL RUBBISH ! Finding a career without getting even a Bachelor's degree is impossible these days.
Posted by: GrantBurkeVT
» Grant you what many call an educated idiot.
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» So what do you do for a living anyway? Please describe your current career.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: So what do you do for a living anyway? Please describe your current career.
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» No
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» RE: No
Posted by: GrantBurkeVT
Comments are closed-
Posted by: symcokid on Sep 20, 2008 10:51 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: mmckinl on Sep 20, 2008 1:26 PM
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» And The Trillion Dollar Bailout ?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: And The Trillion Dollar Bailout ?
Posted by: sirios
» Coming
Posted by: Joshua Holland
Comments are closed-
Posted by: whealeydj on Sep 20, 2008 2:09 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: step away from the computer and work for Obama
Posted by: amerimet
» RE: step away from the computer and work for Obama
Posted by: maxpayne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: opmoc on Sep 20, 2008 2:14 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The human race results in a people of around 95% who have a conscience and social responsibility.
However around 5% of the human population have absolutely no conscience whatsoever
http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/
political_ponerology_lobaczewski.htm
Imagine - if you can - not having a conscience, none at all, no feelings of guilt or remorse no matter what you do, no limiting sense of concern for the well-being of strangers, friends, or even family members. Imagine no struggles with shame, not a single one in your whole life, no matter what kind of selfish, lazy, harmful, or immoral action you had taken.
And pretend that the concept of responsibility is unknown to you, except as a burden others seem to accept without question, like gullible fools.
Now add to this strange fantasy the ability to conceal from other people that your psychological makeup is radically different from theirs. Since everyone simply assumes that conscience is universal among human beings, hiding the fact that you are conscience-free is nearly effortless.
You are not held back from any of your desires by guilt or shame, and you are never confronted by others for your cold-bloodedness. The ice water in your veins is so bizarre, so completely outside of their personal experience, that they seldom even guess at your condition.
In other words, you are completely free of internal restraints, and your unhampered liberty to do just as you please, with no pangs of conscience, is conveniently invisible to the world.
You can do anything at all, and still your strange advantage over the majority of people, who are kept in line by their consciences will most likely remain undiscovered.
How will you live your life?
What will you do with your huge and secret advantage, and with the corresponding handicap of other people (conscience)?
The answer will depend largely on just what your desires happen to be, because people are not all the same. Even the profoundly unscrupulous are not all the same. Some people - whether they have a conscience or not - favor the ease of inertia, while others are filled with dreams and wild ambitions. Some human beings are brilliant and talented, some are dull-witted, and most, conscience or not, are somewhere in between. There are violent people and nonviolent ones, individuals who are motivated by blood lust and those who have no such appetites. [...]
Provided you are not forcibly stopped, you can do anything at all.
The high incidence of sociopathy in human society has a profound effect on the rest of us who must live on this planet, too, even those of us who have not been clinically traumatized. The individuals who constitute this 4 percent drain our relationships, our bank accounts, our accomplishments, our self-esteem, our very peace on earth.
Yet surprisingly, many people know nothing about this disorder, or if they do, they think only in terms of violent psychopathy - murderers, serial killers, mass murderers - people who have conspicuously broken the law many times over, and who, if caught, will be imprisoned, maybe even put to death by our legal system.
Most of us would not imagine any correspondence between conceiving an ethnic genocide and, say, guiltlessly lying to one's boss about a coworker. But the psychological correspondence is not only there; it is chilling. Simple and profound, the link is the absence of the inner mechanism that beats up on us."
You know this is True. What are we going to do about it?
Tony
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Posted by: loxias on Sep 20, 2008 3:00 PM
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> fractional
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Posted by: jonnie rae on Sep 20, 2008 4:24 PM
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» RE: jonnierae
Posted by: amerimet
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mnissenson on Sep 20, 2008 5:56 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am especially disquieted by her truly Nixonian brand of paranoia, enemy-bashing and stonewalling. Anyone who automatically labels an opponent a "hater" is telling you something crucial about their mindset. It's a message she reinforces by using private email in an attempt to circumvent the Freedom of Information Act -- and by encouraging family and friends to defy subpoenas.
Our nation is already perched on the brink of disaster. Putting someone as hellbent on secrecy and cronyism... someone who believes themselves BEYOND the reach of the law and the demands of our democacy.... someone who thinks SEEING a foreign country from their backyard is synonymous with foreign relations EXPERIENCE... is all we need now to push ourselves into the abyss.
WAKE UP FELLOW AMERICANS. You're not voting for the person you'd most like to go shopping with or whose eyeglasses you most admire. We NEED someone who IS more intelligent... more experienced... and more ERUDITE than ourselves in the White House. Pick your candidate with the same care you would pick a cardiologist... not based on whom you find the most "likable" but the most LIKELY to improve the health of our sadly ailing nation.
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Posted by: Jersey Devil on Sep 20, 2008 6:55 PM
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Posted by: Parcival01 on Sep 20, 2008 7:05 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Then there's the alleged connections with Ayers, with Rev. Wright--which have been ridden by the media to the point that I'm ready to throw up. What about Hagee? What about Silly Sarah's affiliation with Jim Jones or whatever that Kenyan's name is? Well, she and McBush aren't black, i.e., an ethnic group that, God forbid, challenged anything White US did just a few decades ago.
I'm hopin'...I'm hopin'... And this article gives me just a little more hope.
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» If Obama/Biden can hit it hard on the economic and foreign policy front, then
Posted by: maxpayne
» Silly Nazi Sarah scares me!
Posted by: mrcentrist
» RE: Silly Nazi Sarah scares me! ME TOO!
Posted by: VZEQICVA
Comments are closed-
Posted by: GPFrank on Sep 20, 2008 7:22 PM
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Unless there is some kind of a surge related to a concerted campaign among bigots I don't see how there would be an effect beyond what you see now, that is, presuming veracity does not change,
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» RE: Numbers presently show bigot effect overcome
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: cori on Sep 20, 2008 10:52 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We need to fight back and get out there like never before becausew this is a matter of life and death.We have soaring oil prices as we are sitting on the 2nd biggest oil deposit in the world, while oil companies are making record profits. We pay billions in taxes for private corporate armies that are above the law. Like with Bush this will continue with McCain. On Bill Moyers Mickey Edwards and Matt Welch (now on the internet) two conservatives discussed who McCain really is. McCain is also a trigger happy Neo Con big on preemptive strikes and military spending. He is a corporate guy big on fabricated wars with no accountability.
“It's often said that when Mickey Edwards speaks conservatives listen.”
“MATT WELCH: People forget this, but in 1999 and 2000, when McCain was running against George Bush, he was the neoconservative candidate. You know, four years before the doctrine of preemptive war ever even occurred to Bush.” REMEMBER WAR = PROFITS FOR THEM AND DEBT FOR US. THE US IS THE BIGGEST ARMS DEALER IN THE WORLD SUPPORTING 761 MILITARY BASES AROUND THE WORLD THAT WE PAY FOR. MORE THEN ANY NATION IS HISTORY.
Our Government is broken. we are in the biggest fiscal crisis in 100 years. Checks, balances and protections have been wiped out. The housing collapse lost nest eggs for tens of millions and the value of homes destroyed. Now you and your children can starve or die in the gutter with no protections or safety nets. What do you think our tax dollars should pay for anyway? McCain is a Bush clone and he will put the nails on our economic coffin if he gets in. The real war on terror is right here. It’s an economic war and we are the victims of an abusive regime that has sucked us dry. If you want to see how totally corrupt it is you can watch IRAQ FOR SALE: THE WAR PROFITEERS on Comcast on demand or the internet. Then you will know what your son’s and daughter’s really died for.
From Bill Moyers The Journal: THE DENVER REALITY “The rules of the game keep changing. For example: Colorado's largest utility - expects to shut off power to 72,000 homes; it’s part of a nationwide trend: Shutoffs are up thirty percent in Chicago, more than fifty percent in Detroit. A record number have fallen behind on their utility bills.
If McCain gets in you can kiss social security, affordable health care and Medicare goodbye. We paid for these safey nets remember? and it was the Democrats who gave them to us. They are bailing out the companies but not us. This election is not about right or left, black or white IT IS ABOUT UP OR DOWN.
McCains track record has been pro deregualtion and privatization that takes our tax dollars with no accountabilty to the tax payers and illiminates government oversight that protects us. Ask yourself, what really is national security all about?
WAKE UP AMERICA
So VOTE with your mind. Have some guts. Don't let racism blind you. Think Obama/ Biden
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Posted by: Purple Girl on Sep 21, 2008 5:30 AM
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Then who they hire to conduct the survey- personal bias
Then move to WHERE they survey- and WHO they will approach- Surveyors personal bias, fears or expectations
Then move to How the Questions ( a fact coupled with a fallacy- Y/N answer only) are constructed, and asked -tone, inflexions, non verbal expressions, Non Verbals can change the meaning or 'push' the respondant
Then look at the sequence in which these question are laid out in the Polling process- Cattle Penning mental corraling?
So you can walk up to a surveyor a Liberal Dem - yet walk away having responded like a Neo Con.
As Long as Humans have their fingers in any part of surveying there are Innate Flaws to the Process.
Reason Why such Sciences as Sociology and Anthropology are called "SOFT SCIENCES"
I have a Bachelors in Both these...And we are told immediately Human can effect the outcome of these 'Studies' Imperical Formula does not Apply
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» You should ask your friends and relatives in red states who answered the polls what questions they
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Basic Inaccuracy of Polls & Surveys- 'Soft Science'
Posted by: VZEQICVA
Comments are closed-
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin on Sep 21, 2008 5:55 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In article published in June 2008 by Military.com, former POW Phillip Butler, a Navy pilot and U.S. Naval Academy graduate who spent more than eight years in North Vietnam as a prisoner of war, explained why he would not support McCain for the presidency.
"Most of us who survived that experience [being a POW] are now in our late 60’s and 70’s. Sadly, we have died and are dying off at a greater rate than our non-POW contemporaries. We experienced injuries and malnutrition that are coming home to roost. So I believe John’s age (71) and survival expectation are not good for being elected to serve as our President for four or more years."
There are many Republicans who share Butler's concerns, as do the 30% of white Democrats who won't vote for Obama because he's black (according to a recent Yahoo poll). But no matter how well he argues his case, those people will NEVER support him. So Barack must get them to vote AGAINST McCain or not vote at all.
That goal can be accomplished with a simple slogan: "John McCain -- OLD Ideas, OLD Solutions."
Notice I never mentioned his age (72), but the message comes through loud and clear. And should the GOP complain about the inference, it will only bolster suspicions that McCain's best days are behind him.
If you agree with my assessment, tell your friends and family members while there's still time to defeat McCain -- a pandering politician who truly has old ideas, old solutions.
John McCain -- OLD Ideas, OLD Solutions
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Posted by: GrannyBgood on Sep 21, 2008 7:53 AM
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 21, 2008 1:44 PM
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» VA is even more active than even 1976. And about Indiana...
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: VA is even more active than even 1976. And about Indiana...
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» It often takes a Northerner to set a new record.
Posted by: GrantBurkeVT
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Hans B on Sep 20, 2008 12:50 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And: David Plouffe is a genius.
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» "Progessive America"?
Posted by: Cathyc
» Why ignore polls? Its one way to express your displeasure....
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin on Sep 20, 2008 1:23 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Last night on Bill Maher's HBO "Real Time" show, ultraconservative writer Andrew Sullivan said Obama represented America's future as a more racially-mixed, diverse society while McCain appealed to people clinging to the past.
Simply put, young voters want Obama, older ones favor McCain. Who wins the election will depend on voter registration and turn-out.
Unfortunately, because America has so many voting-age bigots, McCain might just win in spite of his dimwitted, unqualified hockey mom running mate.
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» RE: Holland forgot one thing in his excellent piece: the "R" facter.
Posted by: The Old Hippie
» Great article, OH. Also depressing. If we can't trust the press -- FUCK IT!
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin
» That makes three of us, Lizmv. You, Old Hippie and me.
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin
» RE: And this 70 year old female
Posted by: Christie
» RE: And this 70 year old female
Posted by: Christie
» RE: And this 70 year old female
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» count me in-nm
Posted by: Timba
» RE: Holland forgot one thing in his excellent piece: the "R" facter.
Posted by: helenwheels
» Read my comment below about the Yahoo poll, helenwheels
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin
» Andrew Sullivan is an idiosyncratic crank, but good for him
Posted by: war_on_tara
» RE: Andrew Sullivan is an idiosyncratic crank, but good for him
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Andrew Sullivan is an idiosyncratic crank, but good for him
Posted by: war_on_tara
» RE: Andrew Sullivan is an idiosyncratic crank, but good for him
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» I don't care what Sullivan is --as long as he's against McCain and Palin.
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin
» Voting in America is like...
Posted by: Cathyc
» Oh,not to worry, Obama is the designated winner. I promise
Posted by: Prophit
» I hope you live up to your AlterNet user name, Prophit.
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin
» RE: I hope you live up to your AlterNet user name, Prophit.
Posted by: nochicagoboys
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Spot on Sep 20, 2008 2:37 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Obama can hang onto the message of change, and fend off the media's irrational acceptance of McCain as anything but a third-rate third-world puppet, he will win it all. It has become clear to anyone with money saved for retirement and everyone dependent on the economy for the survival of self and loved ones that unfettered capitalism leads to national ruin.
The remaining days of the Chicago school are numbered in the tens.
The New Depression began with the failure of Americans to meet their debt obligations. This administration's bailout and market regulation prevents investors from taking the fall for their recklessly risky positions or profiting from accurately valuing the stock market. No short selling? What will keep the prices honest?
I'm really scared about this one. I think they're trying to blow another bubble, but I'm not sure we have the breath.
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» RE: Armageddon!
Posted by: edgeofnowhere
» What about the rabbits, George?
Posted by: Cathyc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: The Old Hippie on Sep 20, 2008 2:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The polls mean what they mean, but only the final vote tally matters, and as it stands right now - The corporatists’ voting machines are still “allowed” to have full control over that, in most cases without a hardcopy backup...
Cynical? After four straight national elections proven to have been corrupted by their machines, left uncorrected, and still unpunished... Cynical? You’d better believe it.
“You Don’t Want It To Be True...”
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» RE: It’s Only Those That Count The Votes That Matter...
Posted by: setterwoman
» the repubs still own and program the voting machines . . .
Posted by: dustdevil
» Fool me twice?
Posted by: Cathyc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: brer on Sep 20, 2008 4:08 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've been polled THREE times in the last two weeks, and every time I lied through my teeth. One or two questions I answered truthfully, just to add to the confusion.
So, at least you can know that not all polls are totally truthful.
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» RE: brer
Posted by: GPFrank
» RE: brer
Posted by: GPFrank
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Karl.Ben on Sep 20, 2008 4:19 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The polls are pretty close for sure and go up and down more than the stock market did this week. So far it's 236 to 224 - the latest Zogby electoral count with Obama in the lead.. He lost ground and McCain surged.
Palin will level out as did Obama..They both busrt onto the scene as unkowns with little experience.
One thing I heard on Zogby's show that is a concern for Obama.. the Bradly effect. Obama's advisors seem to be telling him he is really lower than the polls indicate by at least 4 points due to this.
If this is infact true then places like NY, Pa, Ohio become a battleground..not good for Obama.
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» So what's your beef with Obama, Karl? Because he's black, a Democrat -- or both?
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin
» RE: So what's your beef with Obama, Karl? Because he's black, a Democrat -- or both?
Posted by: Karl.Ben
» RE: So what's your beef with Palin?
Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: So what's your beef with Obama, Karl? Because he's black, a Democrat -- or both?
Posted by: Timba
» My beef with Palin has nothing to do with gender. She's unqualified to be president -- PERIOD!
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin
» RE: My beef with Palin has nothing to do with gender. She's unqualified to be president -- PERIOD!
Posted by: aonghus36
» No, its because he simply hasn't got a clue what is going on.....
Posted by: Prophit
» Let me give you the URL to that article above, but you will...
Posted by: Prophit
» Democrats make the grave mistake on relying on polls and giving people a sense of mistrust about the
Posted by: maxpayne
» Actually, I saw Nader on the Ron Paul press conference....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Actually, I saw Nader on the Ron Paul press conference....
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: If I hear another Obama or Palin speech....
Posted by: progdem
» RE: If I hear another Obama or Palin speech....
Posted by: Karl.Ben
» RE: If I hear another Obama or Palin speech....**OBAMA TAKES NY**
Posted by: maribelle
Comments are closed-
Posted by: disc golf on Sep 20, 2008 4:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Great article and many smart readers. Let's hope Americans can "hang in there" for the next six weeks!
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» RE: That's right: The voting machines ARE corrupted!
Posted by: aonghus36
» "The voting machines ARE corrupted!" Hello? American society itself is TOTALLY corrupted!
Posted by: Cathyc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Beck on Sep 20, 2008 5:23 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Clearly, there is reason to believe that the "Bradley effect" -- the historical fact that some of those who tell pollsters that they're ready to vote for a person of color won't -- will have an impact on the election. How big will that impact be? Nobody knows." Sixth paragraph.
I agree that we should ignore them and report the comments that are psychotic, although alternet's bizarre system of reproducing the letters they give doesn't help. Most of the time, you can reproduce those letters but the system insists you didn't. And there seems to be no way to switch upper and lower cases (how can you tell a lower case "o" from upper case?) and make the weird system work.
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» The "Weird System"?
Posted by: Cathyc
» Good comments Cathyc...... someone doesn't agree or has a ...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: The "Weird System"? When you report a comment, you must reproduce a series of letters to send
Posted by: Beck
» RE: ignoring the crazy trolls and the trolls who don't even read the articles**ALTERNET TAKE NOTE**
Posted by: maribelle
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Posted by: hollymoodyb on Sep 20, 2008 6:17 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» I promise, Obama will win the election, I know it for a fact.
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: I promise, Obama will win the election, I know it for a fact.
Posted by: amerimet
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Sep 20, 2008 6:18 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Also, notice that unlike the previous election Muslim American voters are not even being polled this time around. Also, for anyone living in the deep red states in the midwest, I've been told that these people are asked questions mainly about guns and abortion and nothing on Iraq or the economy. Can anyone from any of those states confirm this? If so, the Democrats had better get out there and stop allowing the media to dictate where they should campaign based on this phony polls. This is why I get angry when the party refuses to be itself and ignore these phony polls. There is no "liberal" media. There is only a rightwing media that is going out of its way to support John Mccain who strongly supported and campaigned for policies that would empower the rightwing media.
As Spot, GrantburkeVT, and boing007 have pointed out in other posts, we're going to have to go local and then work our ways up to the federal level on putting progressive/liberal independent/moderates in office. I have also stumbled across posts from zooeyhall and grantburkevt pointing out that even in FDR's time, major opposition and assassination attempts by rightwing militants were carried out despite the public demanding a change from the bankrupted "conservative" ideology to progressive/liberal populism. While I'm still pissed off at Obama for writing the base off, he has been campaigning surprisingly well and has even finally gotten the message that it's time to attack the ideology. The phony polls won't take those events into account and yet they'll ask people more about Sarah Palin than they will John Mccain.
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» RE: Most of these polls are actually PARTISAN RIGHTWING CORPORATE written and
Posted by: maxpayne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Sep 20, 2008 6:19 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» If you still think your vote counts, then by all means do all ...
Posted by: Prophit
» We need to eliminate the Electoral College
Posted by: kellysgarden
» That's for sure.
Posted by: maxpayne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Last Chance on Sep 20, 2008 6:34 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
2. IF the election could be managed honestly, Obama would win by a landslide.
But the opinion polls are slanted by Republican managers, and the last two elections were fixed by Republican state officials.
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» I said about 2 days before the republican convention that...
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: X-POLYGAMIST WIFE on Sep 20, 2008 7:02 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://bankingonheaven.com/
BANKING ON HEAVEN
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» Isn't the governor of your state trying to stop this madness?
Posted by: maxpayne
» And This concerns Polling and Elections? How?
Posted by: Stoney 12+1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Sep 20, 2008 7:18 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: One more thing. It looks like the Nader campaign is giving back some of our contributions. :(
Posted by: suckerbeagle
» RE: One more thing. It looks like the Nader campaign is giving back some of our contributions. :(
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: One more thing. It looks like the Nader campaign is giving back some of our contributions. :(
Posted by: amerimet
» RE: One more thing. It looks like the Nader campaign is giving back some of our contributions. :(
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: One more thing. It looks like the Nader campaign is giving back some of our contributions. :(
Posted by: babs
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Menopausal Mick on Sep 20, 2008 7:28 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Cynical?? Me?? Probably.
I am also working for Senator Obama's campaign in Missouri and I can tell you that even NOW there are people who believe that he is a Muslim. I had one gentleman tell me that he would NEVER vote for someone named Hussein.
You can't budge those people even if you point out that much of the media complained about his twenty year association with his CHRISTIAN pastor.
I am not allowed to try and talk logic to such bigotry. I merely thank them for their time and hang up.
Luckily, those calls are balanced by ones like the grandmother who asked if we had time to talk to her grandson who was aching to work for Senator Obama.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that we have a ton of work to do in a very little amount of time. We have to win by a margin that will be hard for voting machines to steal. We have to overcome bigotry and ignorance and electronic voting machines that Princeton University and others have proven to be totally hackable.
It appears to be an unsurmountable task but it is one that we MUST undertake. I believe it to be America's last chance to survive in any form that is recognizable to those of us old enough to remember a time when our constitution was cherished and protected by millions who took to the streets to challenge fascism.
Apparently, all the old hippies of my generation are dead. You young activists have to take up the torch and you have to do it NOW.
Please consider volunteering some time to Senator Obama's campaign today. You'll meet a lot of great people. It isn't all work. We usually have potluck dinners before we work the phone banks. The dinners have lively political discourse and allow the exchange of ideas among people committed to change the course of this country.
Years from now... will you be proud that you actually DID something to bring change or will you regret that you sat on the sidelines while fear and hate allowed the corporate takeover of the world's best hope... America.
Menopausal Mick
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» RE: Working the phones
Posted by: maxpayne
» America is the "world's best hope" ? Are you kidding!!!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: America is the "world's best hope" ? Are you kidding!!!
Posted by: Menopausal Mick
» Give him a chance. Geez ! America's not perfect but there's still room for improvement !
Posted by: maxpayne
» They are setting the stage to steal the 08 election right now
Posted by: cori
Comments are closed-
Posted by: surfreality on Sep 20, 2008 7:50 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
38 million tuned into Obama's speech in Denver. Of the 39 million who tuned into McCain how many were watching to contrast and compare?
( That exercise does not favor McCain )
These are real numbers. To me they look pretty good.
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Posted by: lifeaholic on Sep 20, 2008 8:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
HEAD OF VOTE COUNTING FIRM HAD SAID TO BUSH "I GUARANTEE YOU OHIO" HOW?
WILL NEXT PRESIDENT LET JUSTICE INVESTIGATE?
WE NEED TO SEE THE SOFTWARE USED TO COUNT THE VOTES.
WE NEED THE PROGRAM WRITERS UNDER OATH.
SHAME ON AMERICA
FROM 2000 WE NEED COUNTY REGISTARS (FLA) UNDER OATH TO EXPLAIN HOW ABSENTEE BALLOTS WERE DISTRIBUTED.
HOW A SERVICEMAN OVERSESE GOT TWO BALLOTS AND ONE GOT NONE. ONE REPUBLICAN ONE DEMOCRAT FROM SAME VOTING DISTRICT.
WE NEED UNDER OATH.
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» RE: KERRY IN OHIO
Posted by: Hans B
» RE: KERRY IN OHIO
Posted by: babs
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Posted by: jeffrey7 on Sep 20, 2008 9:10 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Polls are the quarter we don't need to read,believe,or worry about. This is what we need to worry about;
Soon we are to elect a president. In the old days it was'nt much. We knew we were electing a puppet that had not alot of power to ruin all life. Today it's a little more important.
From the Oval Office today the person who sits in it has the power to nuke anyone at anytime,anywhere,just by calling them 'terrorists'. They can circumvent the Constitution and squash the Bill of Rights just to make sure you're a 'good American'.
We will be electing someone that has more power than any office held by any country we might call 'evil' or 'enemy'. There are no Peacemakers in the 'Media Campaigns' and the only poll we need to be concerned about is the one we're going to have to sit on.
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Posted by: GreyFoxThree on Sep 20, 2008 9:16 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jiff
Ultimate Anonymity
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Posted by: left-leaning-libertarian on Sep 20, 2008 9:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
GET INVOLVED! I'm on my county Democratic central committee and am, once again, serving as precinct captain (in spite of social anxiety issues). I'm looking to find ways to involve younger people, give them a stake in the process, even if it's something so unglamorous as canvasing voters or giving little old ladies rides to the polls. The way you WIN is by focusing on the practical nuts and bolts of voter turnout on the ground.
Volunteer to serve as a poll watcher or election monitor. Keep the process honest.
Knock on doors, help out at the phone bank, deliver yard signs, wear your Obama/Biden buttons and T shirts with pride and start conversations with voters! Don't assume that somebody won't vote for Obama because of their background etc.; leave no stone unturned!
Ignore the GOP trolls who try to stir up discontent and discouragement. They have NOTHIN' to run on and they damn well know it. When all the Obama supporters who aren't being reached by the pollsters come out on Nov. 4, those trolls will be BURIED in a landslide. . . and that will be sweet indeed!
So, to sum up:
DAMN THE TROLLS!
DAMN THE TORPEDOS!
FULL SPEED AHEAD!
NEVER GIVE UP!
NEVER SURRENDER!
NEVER DESPAIR!
YES WE CAN!
OBAMA/BIDEN '08
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» ELECTION DAY. Haha!!!
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: benhur on Sep 20, 2008 9:37 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Stay Calm?
Posted by: suckerbeagle
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Posted by: NoMcCainPalin on Sep 20, 2008 10:12 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
WASHINGTON (Sept. 20) - Deep-seated racial misgivings could cost Barack Obama the White House if the election is close, according to an AP-Yahoo News poll that found one-third of white Democrats harbor negative views toward blacks — many calling them "lazy," "violent" or responsible for their own troubles.
The poll, conducted with Stanford University, suggests that the percentage of voters who may turn away from Obama because of his race could easily be larger than the final difference between the candidates in 2004 — about two and one-half percentage points.
------------------------------------------------------------
If you think the last eight years under Bumbling Bush were bad, what until McKKKain gets into the Oval Office. There will be, I predict, blood in the streets.
Literally.
The GOP cannot not steal another election, this time with the help of bipartisan bigots, without there being severe repercussions -- from black, brown, yellow and white people who REALLY love America, including yours truly.
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» Give the streets a break
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: Dear Mr. Holland. Please write another article about the following AOL news report today.
Posted by: symcokid
» Sorry, symcokid. I should have included native Americans. Thanks for pointing that out.
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin
» RE: Dear Mr. Holland. Please write another article about the following AOL news report today.
Posted by: amerimet
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Posted by: Ky Lake Dave on Sep 20, 2008 10:44 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think you guys like the polls that make Obama up and insult the same polls when they show Obama down. Very convienent.
Kinda like privacy is important unless it is Sahara Palin's private email account.
Real Princes here in liberal land.
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» "YOU guys"? And who are they, Ky Lake? -- people don't spread GOP bullshit like you do?
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin
» Shocking facts!
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Shocking facts!
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» That doesn't make Palin "clean".
Posted by: maxpayne
» Doesn't make her dirty either
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» You make no sense of yourself.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Shocking facts!
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Chill man!
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» But where is the outcry over Palins privacy?
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» Why should politicians such as Palin get "privacy" when the American people cannot?
Posted by: maxpayne
» SO you think only SOME people have a right to privacy?
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» If Palin wanted privacy, she shouldn't have accepted the VP pick.
Posted by: maxpayne
» Truly pathetic
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» When Palin Winds up on the "No Fly LIST" For Exercising Her Right to Free Speach!
Posted by: Stoney 12+1
» Are you accusing Obama of breaking into Silly Saraj's e-mail?
Posted by: Parcival01
» KY Lake Dave is just a partisan GOP troll. He's been "trained" to simply hate non-Republicans.
Posted by: maxpayne
» Me a hater?
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» Oh lord, let's get some things straight, shall we?
Posted by: maxpayne
» What no HUG?
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» You Want Me to Put My Arms Around Your Neck???!!!!!!
Posted by: Stoney 12+1
» RE: You Want Me to Put My Arms Around Your Neck???!!!!!!
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» most likely you are a middle-aged fat loser who still lives in his
Posted by: GrantBurkeVT
» KY Lake Dave is just trying to make up lies about "success" thinking anyone will buy his rubbish.
Posted by: GrantBurkeVT
» TOTAL RUBBISH ! Finding a career without getting even a Bachelor's degree is impossible these days.
Posted by: GrantBurkeVT
» Grant you what many call an educated idiot.
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» So what do you do for a living anyway? Please describe your current career.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: So what do you do for a living anyway? Please describe your current career.
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» No
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» RE: No
Posted by: GrantBurkeVT
Comments are closed-
Posted by: symcokid on Sep 20, 2008 10:51 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: mmckinl on Sep 20, 2008 1:26 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» And The Trillion Dollar Bailout ?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: And The Trillion Dollar Bailout ?
Posted by: sirios
» Coming
Posted by: Joshua Holland
Comments are closed-
Posted by: whealeydj on Sep 20, 2008 2:09 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: step away from the computer and work for Obama
Posted by: amerimet
» RE: step away from the computer and work for Obama
Posted by: maxpayne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: opmoc on Sep 20, 2008 2:14 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The human race results in a people of around 95% who have a conscience and social responsibility.
However around 5% of the human population have absolutely no conscience whatsoever
http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/
political_ponerology_lobaczewski.htm
Imagine - if you can - not having a conscience, none at all, no feelings of guilt or remorse no matter what you do, no limiting sense of concern for the well-being of strangers, friends, or even family members. Imagine no struggles with shame, not a single one in your whole life, no matter what kind of selfish, lazy, harmful, or immoral action you had taken.
And pretend that the concept of responsibility is unknown to you, except as a burden others seem to accept without question, like gullible fools.
Now add to this strange fantasy the ability to conceal from other people that your psychological makeup is radically different from theirs. Since everyone simply assumes that conscience is universal among human beings, hiding the fact that you are conscience-free is nearly effortless.
You are not held back from any of your desires by guilt or shame, and you are never confronted by others for your cold-bloodedness. The ice water in your veins is so bizarre, so completely outside of their personal experience, that they seldom even guess at your condition.
In other words, you are completely free of internal restraints, and your unhampered liberty to do just as you please, with no pangs of conscience, is conveniently invisible to the world.
You can do anything at all, and still your strange advantage over the majority of people, who are kept in line by their consciences will most likely remain undiscovered.
How will you live your life?
What will you do with your huge and secret advantage, and with the corresponding handicap of other people (conscience)?
The answer will depend largely on just what your desires happen to be, because people are not all the same. Even the profoundly unscrupulous are not all the same. Some people - whether they have a conscience or not - favor the ease of inertia, while others are filled with dreams and wild ambitions. Some human beings are brilliant and talented, some are dull-witted, and most, conscience or not, are somewhere in between. There are violent people and nonviolent ones, individuals who are motivated by blood lust and those who have no such appetites. [...]
Provided you are not forcibly stopped, you can do anything at all.
The high incidence of sociopathy in human society has a profound effect on the rest of us who must live on this planet, too, even those of us who have not been clinically traumatized. The individuals who constitute this 4 percent drain our relationships, our bank accounts, our accomplishments, our self-esteem, our very peace on earth.
Yet surprisingly, many people know nothing about this disorder, or if they do, they think only in terms of violent psychopathy - murderers, serial killers, mass murderers - people who have conspicuously broken the law many times over, and who, if caught, will be imprisoned, maybe even put to death by our legal system.
Most of us would not imagine any correspondence between conceiving an ethnic genocide and, say, guiltlessly lying to one's boss about a coworker. But the psychological correspondence is not only there; it is chilling. Simple and profound, the link is the absence of the inner mechanism that beats up on us."
You know this is True. What are we going to do about it?
Tony
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Posted by: loxias on Sep 20, 2008 3:00 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
> fractional
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Posted by: jonnie rae on Sep 20, 2008 4:24 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: jonnierae
Posted by: amerimet
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Posted by: mnissenson on Sep 20, 2008 5:56 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am especially disquieted by her truly Nixonian brand of paranoia, enemy-bashing and stonewalling. Anyone who automatically labels an opponent a "hater" is telling you something crucial about their mindset. It's a message she reinforces by using private email in an attempt to circumvent the Freedom of Information Act -- and by encouraging family and friends to defy subpoenas.
Our nation is already perched on the brink of disaster. Putting someone as hellbent on secrecy and cronyism... someone who believes themselves BEYOND the reach of the law and the demands of our democacy.... someone who thinks SEEING a foreign country from their backyard is synonymous with foreign relations EXPERIENCE... is all we need now to push ourselves into the abyss.
WAKE UP FELLOW AMERICANS. You're not voting for the person you'd most like to go shopping with or whose eyeglasses you most admire. We NEED someone who IS more intelligent... more experienced... and more ERUDITE than ourselves in the White House. Pick your candidate with the same care you would pick a cardiologist... not based on whom you find the most "likable" but the most LIKELY to improve the health of our sadly ailing nation.
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Posted by: Jersey Devil on Sep 20, 2008 6:55 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Parcival01 on Sep 20, 2008 7:05 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Then there's the alleged connections with Ayers, with Rev. Wright--which have been ridden by the media to the point that I'm ready to throw up. What about Hagee? What about Silly Sarah's affiliation with Jim Jones or whatever that Kenyan's name is? Well, she and McBush aren't black, i.e., an ethnic group that, God forbid, challenged anything White US did just a few decades ago.
I'm hopin'...I'm hopin'... And this article gives me just a little more hope.
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» If Obama/Biden can hit it hard on the economic and foreign policy front, then
Posted by: maxpayne
» Silly Nazi Sarah scares me!
Posted by: mrcentrist
» RE: Silly Nazi Sarah scares me! ME TOO!
Posted by: VZEQICVA
Comments are closed-
Posted by: GPFrank on Sep 20, 2008 7:22 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unless there is some kind of a surge related to a concerted campaign among bigots I don't see how there would be an effect beyond what you see now, that is, presuming veracity does not change,
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» RE: Numbers presently show bigot effect overcome
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: cori on Sep 20, 2008 10:52 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We need to fight back and get out there like never before becausew this is a matter of life and death.We have soaring oil prices as we are sitting on the 2nd biggest oil deposit in the world, while oil companies are making record profits. We pay billions in taxes for private corporate armies that are above the law. Like with Bush this will continue with McCain. On Bill Moyers Mickey Edwards and Matt Welch (now on the internet) two conservatives discussed who McCain really is. McCain is also a trigger happy Neo Con big on preemptive strikes and military spending. He is a corporate guy big on fabricated wars with no accountability.
“It's often said that when Mickey Edwards speaks conservatives listen.”
“MATT WELCH: People forget this, but in 1999 and 2000, when McCain was running against George Bush, he was the neoconservative candidate. You know, four years before the doctrine of preemptive war ever even occurred to Bush.” REMEMBER WAR = PROFITS FOR THEM AND DEBT FOR US. THE US IS THE BIGGEST ARMS DEALER IN THE WORLD SUPPORTING 761 MILITARY BASES AROUND THE WORLD THAT WE PAY FOR. MORE THEN ANY NATION IS HISTORY.
Our Government is broken. we are in the biggest fiscal crisis in 100 years. Checks, balances and protections have been wiped out. The housing collapse lost nest eggs for tens of millions and the value of homes destroyed. Now you and your children can starve or die in the gutter with no protections or safety nets. What do you think our tax dollars should pay for anyway? McCain is a Bush clone and he will put the nails on our economic coffin if he gets in. The real war on terror is right here. It’s an economic war and we are the victims of an abusive regime that has sucked us dry. If you want to see how totally corrupt it is you can watch IRAQ FOR SALE: THE WAR PROFITEERS on Comcast on demand or the internet. Then you will know what your son’s and daughter’s really died for.
From Bill Moyers The Journal: THE DENVER REALITY “The rules of the game keep changing. For example: Colorado's largest utility - expects to shut off power to 72,000 homes; it’s part of a nationwide trend: Shutoffs are up thirty percent in Chicago, more than fifty percent in Detroit. A record number have fallen behind on their utility bills.
If McCain gets in you can kiss social security, affordable health care and Medicare goodbye. We paid for these safey nets remember? and it was the Democrats who gave them to us. They are bailing out the companies but not us. This election is not about right or left, black or white IT IS ABOUT UP OR DOWN.
McCains track record has been pro deregualtion and privatization that takes our tax dollars with no accountabilty to the tax payers and illiminates government oversight that protects us. Ask yourself, what really is national security all about?
WAKE UP AMERICA
So VOTE with your mind. Have some guts. Don't let racism blind you. Think Obama/ Biden
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Posted by: Purple Girl on Sep 21, 2008 5:30 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Then who they hire to conduct the survey- personal bias
Then move to WHERE they survey- and WHO they will approach- Surveyors personal bias, fears or expectations
Then move to How the Questions ( a fact coupled with a fallacy- Y/N answer only) are constructed, and asked -tone, inflexions, non verbal expressions, Non Verbals can change the meaning or 'push' the respondant
Then look at the sequence in which these question are laid out in the Polling process- Cattle Penning mental corraling?
So you can walk up to a surveyor a Liberal Dem - yet walk away having responded like a Neo Con.
As Long as Humans have their fingers in any part of surveying there are Innate Flaws to the Process.
Reason Why such Sciences as Sociology and Anthropology are called "SOFT SCIENCES"
I have a Bachelors in Both these...And we are told immediately Human can effect the outcome of these 'Studies' Imperical Formula does not Apply
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» You should ask your friends and relatives in red states who answered the polls what questions they
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Basic Inaccuracy of Polls & Surveys- 'Soft Science'
Posted by: VZEQICVA
Comments are closed-
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin on Sep 21, 2008 5:55 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In article published in June 2008 by Military.com, former POW Phillip Butler, a Navy pilot and U.S. Naval Academy graduate who spent more than eight years in North Vietnam as a prisoner of war, explained why he would not support McCain for the presidency.
"Most of us who survived that experience [being a POW] are now in our late 60’s and 70’s. Sadly, we have died and are dying off at a greater rate than our non-POW contemporaries. We experienced injuries and malnutrition that are coming home to roost. So I believe John’s age (71) and survival expectation are not good for being elected to serve as our President for four or more years."
There are many Republicans who share Butler's concerns, as do the 30% of white Democrats who won't vote for Obama because he's black (according to a recent Yahoo poll). But no matter how well he argues his case, those people will NEVER support him. So Barack must get them to vote AGAINST McCain or not vote at all.
That goal can be accomplished with a simple slogan: "John McCain -- OLD Ideas, OLD Solutions."
Notice I never mentioned his age (72), but the message comes through loud and clear. And should the GOP complain about the inference, it will only bolster suspicions that McCain's best days are behind him.
If you agree with my assessment, tell your friends and family members while there's still time to defeat McCain -- a pandering politician who truly has old ideas, old solutions.
John McCain -- OLD Ideas, OLD Solutions
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Posted by: GrannyBgood on Sep 21, 2008 7:53 AM
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 21, 2008 1:44 PM
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» VA is even more active than even 1976. And about Indiana...
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: VA is even more active than even 1976. And about Indiana...
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» It often takes a Northerner to set a new record.
Posted by: GrantBurkeVT
MoveOn Launches Campaign for Bold Progressive Reforms as the Obama Era Begins
Obama's Promise of Change Comes Wrapped in Red, White and Blue
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