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Election 2008

I Spent Years as a POW with John McCain, and His Finger Should Not Be Near the Red Button

By Phillip Butler, Military.com. Posted August 21, 2008.


A fellow Vietnam POW of McCain's warns of the candidate's "quick and explosive temper" and suggests McCain is exaggerating his imprisonment.
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John McCain is a long-time acquaintance of mine that goes way back to our time together at the U.S. Naval Academy and as Prisoners of War in Vietnam. He is a man I respect and admire in some ways. But there are a number of reasons why I will not vote for him for President of the United States.

When I was a Plebe (4th classman, or freshman) at the Naval Academy in 1957-58, I was assigned to the 17th Company for my four years there. In those days we had about 3,600 midshipmen spread among 24 companies, thus about 150 midshipmen to a company. As fortune would have it, John, a First Classman (senior) and his room mate lived directly across the hall from me and my two room mates. Believe me when I say that back then I would never in a million or more years have dreamed that the crazy guy across the hall would someday be a Senator and candidate for President!

John was a wild man. He was funny, with a quick wit and he was intelligent. But he was intent on breaking every USNA regulation in our 4 inch thick USNA Regulations book. And I believe he must have come as close to his goal as any midshipman who ever attended the Academy. John had me "coming around" to his room frequently during my plebe year. And on one occasion he took me with him to escape "over the wall" in the dead of night. He had a taxi cab waiting for us that took us to a bar some 7 miles away. John had a few beers, but forbid me to drink (watching out for me I guess) and made me drink cokes. I could tell many other midshipman stories about John that year and he unbelievably managed to graduate though he spent the majority of his first class year on restriction for the stuff he did get caught doing. In fact he barely managed to graduate, standing 5th from the bottom of his 800 man graduating class. I and many others have speculated that the main reason he did graduate was because his father was an Admiral, and also his grandfather, both U.S. Naval Academy graduates.

People often ask if I was a Prisoner of War with John McCain. My answer is always "No - John McCain was a POW with me." The reason is I was there for 8 years and John got there 2 1/2 years later, so he was a POW for 5 1/2 years. And we have our own seniority system, based on time as a POW.

John's treatment as a POW:

1) Was he tortured for 5 years? No. He was subjected to torture and maltreatment during his first 2 years, from September of 1967 to September of 1969. After September of 1969 the Vietnamese stopped the torture and gave us increased food and rudimentary health care. Several hundred of us were captured much earlier. I got there April 20, 1965 so my bad treatment period lasted 4 1/2 years. President Ho Chi Minh died on September 9, 1969, and the new regime that replaced him and his policies was more pragmatic. They realized we were worth a lot as bargaining chips if we were alive. And they were right because eventually Americans gave up on the war and agreed to trade our POW's for their country. A damn good trade in my opinion! But my point here is that John allows the media to make him out to be THE hero POW, which he knows is absolutely not true, to further his political goals.

2) John was badly injured when he was shot down. Both arms were broken and he had other wounds from his ejection. Unfortunately this was often the case -- new POW's arriving with broken bones and serious combat injuries. Many died from their wounds. Medical care was non-existent to rudimentary. Relief from pain was almost never given and often the wounds were used as an available way to torture the POW. Because John's father was the Naval Commander in the Pacific theater, he was exploited with TV interviews while wounded. These film clips have now been widely seen. But it must be known that many POW's suffered similarly, not just John. And many were similarly exploited for political propaganda.

3) John was offered, and refused, "early release." Many of us were given this offer. It meant speaking out against your country and lying about your treatment to the press. You had to "admit" that the U.S. was criminal and that our treatment was "lenient and humane." So I, like numerous others, refused the offer. This was obviously something none of us could accept. Besides, we were bound by our service regulations, Geneva Conventions and loyalties to refuse early release until all the POW's were released, with the sick and wounded going first.


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Doctor Phillip Butler is a 1961 graduate of the United States Naval Academy and a former light-attack carrier pilot. In 1965 he was shot down over North Vietnam where he spent eight years as a prisoner of war. He is a highly decorated combat veteran who was awarded two Silver Stars, two Legion of Merits, two Bronze Stars and two Purple Heart medals. After his repatriation in 1973 he earned a Ph.D. in sociology from the University of California at San Diego and became a Navy Organizational Effectiveness consultant. He completed his Navy career in 1981 as a professor of management at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, California. He is now a peace and justice activist with Veterans for Peace.

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That Just About Sums It Up
Posted by: NoPCZone on Aug 21, 2008 1:26 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Someone who has known you through time, testing and trial has a pretty good grasp of what you are about. This ought to seal the deal.

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» This is NOT Swiftboating Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: Welcome, you have arrived......... Posted by: beautifulady2003
» RE: What you dont see will kill you! Posted by: beautifulady2003
"swift boat" with honor
Posted by: Col. Jackleg on Aug 21, 2008 1:42 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If read and accepted, McCain is done........BUT, let's see if Obamarama has the cojones to use it. My guess is NO.

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» RE: "swift boat" with honor Posted by: JSquercia
Thank you, AlterNet!
Posted by: HughScott on Aug 21, 2008 1:42 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Because of space limitations, I was only able to post extracts of Phillip Butler's letter on my nonprofit Web site, UnfitMcCain.com. Now I and other AlterNetters have a chance to read all of his powerfully damning words. Again, my thanks to the AlterNet editorial staff.

Finally, I also want to thank everyone who visited UnfitMcCain.com since I launched it on August 1.

So far this month, the site has had 700,357 hits. My goal is a cool million by September 1. Help me make it happen by emailing this comment to five people who want REAL change in America and ask them to do the same.

Hugh E. Scott, Vietnam veteran (for the benefit of new AlterNet visitors)
Seven reasons to vote against Unfit McCain

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» RE: Thank you, AlterNet! Posted by: Dboy
With all due respect!
Posted by: chuckjs on Aug 21, 2008 3:35 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Will you let this go. The left is turning this into McCain's Wright controversy. This story is at least a month old and the 2 repeat articles, yesterday and today, are almost word for word verbatim.

Got any new exciting news about the warped talk express. Bring it on and stop beating this poor horse to death. Before you know it PETA will be involved.

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» RE: With all due respect! Posted by: ProgGrandma
» Please explain again...... Posted by: LionHeart
» RE: Please explain again...... Posted by: orwellturns
» RE: With all due respect! Posted by: rhinojos
» RE: With all due respect! Posted by: cwilsondrum
War?
Posted by: Rolomax on Aug 21, 2008 3:57 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A good litmus test is this:

If McCain believes the USA should have won the war, then he shouldn't be president.

simple.

Why? Well,

1) US Congress didn't declare war.

2) We weren't at war.

3) The US wasn't attacked, and the US military exists to DEFEND the USA.

4) Vietnam didn't pose a threat to the Republic of the USA.

hmm. Why am I reminded of Iraq and Afghanistan?

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» RE: War? Posted by: LionHeart
» RE: War? Posted by: kellysgarden
» RE: War? Posted by: LionHeart
» RE: War? Posted by: kellysgarden
» here is FBI's link to bin Laden Posted by: kellysgarden
This Is A War Hero?
Posted by: The_Curmudgeon on Aug 21, 2008 4:23 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The reprint of Dr. Butler's March article from Military Times needs all the exposure it can receive, even if the original piece was published five months ago and was totally ignored by everyone in the media until yesterday.

It needs re-telling because McCain actively cultivates the image of a “warrior” and “war hero,” the genuine article, toting a carefully crafted impression around like a Louis Vittuon carry-all. The problem is that the supposedly genuine Vittuon actually is a cheap knock-off, a piece of counterfeit luggage.

After years of McCain perpetuating the myth, it’s time someone publicly calls McCain what he is: An exaggerator of his military experience and fabricator of his status as war hero.

In fact, Pentagon records show that the Man Who Would Be President was a not-very-good Naval Academy student who preferred parties to studying and graduated in the bottom five of his Annapolis class; a mediocre pilot who crashed three jet fighters during training before being shipped out to ‘Nam where he crashed a fourth; an insubordinate junior officer who got shot down over Hanoi because he disobeyed direct orders to abandon his 23rd mission and return to the USS Forrestal; and, as a POW, provided so much intelligence – admittedly, bits of it false – and co-operated so extensively with the North Vietnamese in exchange for favourable treatment over a three year period that fellow prisoners gave him the derisive nickname “Songbird.” In propaganda, the North Vietnamese even used his nickname in a news release about McCain, not understanding it was an insult by prisoners disgusted with his behaviour.

Put bluntly, the closest John McCain has ever come to a war hero was when he sat on his grandfather’s lap as a child. The first John McCain commanded naval aviation at the Battle of Okinawa in 1945.

In other words, John McCain III (or “Admiral Three Sticks” as a Republican Senate aid called him over drinks one night) not only changes his positions on substantive issues in the campaign, he totally changes the reality of his “service to my country.” No wonder he has trouble staying on message as a candidate; he can’t keep the story of his life straight.

Ny repeatedly violating the Military Code of Conduct while a POW, he placed other naval airmen in jeopardy. Unclassified North Vietnamese and Pentagon records confirm that he provided Hanoi with detailed information about the number of airplanes on the Forrestal, flight paths into and out of North Viet Nam, how targets were selected, the positioning of rescue ships and the success rate of attacks from fighter-bombers based on his carrier. As far as can be discovered, the only thing he deceived the North Vietnamese about was the names of the pilots with whom he flew, for which he substituted the names of the Green Bay Packer’s offensive linemen. McCain has dined out on the Packer story for decades, omitting the other, less noble, portions of his captivity.

That his father and grandfather were Annapolis grads kept him from being booted out of the Navy, his family background also contributed to McCain being awarded 28 service medals. He received slightly more than one medal for each of his 23 missions.

“The question really is how many guys got that number of medals for not being shot down,” explains Bill Bell, a veteran of Vietnam and former chief of the U.S. Office for POW/MIA Affairs.

Eventually, even the Navy was on to McCain. He "retired" after being told twice that he would not make Admiral like his forefathers.

McCain is a master at manipulating a friendly news media. The POW turned Congressman, turned Senator, turned Presidential candidate, has managed to gloss over his failures as a pilot and his collaboration with the enemy to become America’s POW-hero presidential candidate.

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» His Tactic Worked Posted by: LeaderofMen
» Where are OUR Swiftboaters? Posted by: LeaderofMen
» Consider yourself hooked... Posted by: LionHeart
» RE: Consider yourself hooked... Posted by: LionHeart
» RE you really are a dumbass.. Posted by: cwilsondrum
» RE: This Is A War Hero? Posted by: johnt66
» RE: This Is A War Hero? Posted by: bob keeley
Why Isn't This Being Covered?
Posted by: shill on Aug 21, 2008 4:41 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is an old article that SHOULD have made its way into SOME mainstream media SOME where!!! Instead, this is the only place I have seen it. Sad. Of course, if this guy DID manage to somehow get the mainstream media to print it, the Republican Party would quickly "Swiftboat" HIM!

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"Re-branding" John McCain....
Posted by: CatDad on Aug 21, 2008 4:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
warns of the candidate's "quick and explosive temper"
---------------------------
At this point, the only hope I see of the Democrats retaking the White House is for a very public demonstration of this "quick and explosive temper" that is caught on video. I'm guessing that there is an entire legion of "public relations" consultants who are working on/with John McCain to "re-brand" his personae...with a major focus on anger management - most likely augmented by SSRI medications to avoid such a catastrophic public meltdown.

George W. underwent a similar "re-branding" in 2000 to get rid of the whiny, smug, self-entitled brat personae that he had all his life....Part of the process involved deliberately creating a "buffoon" type image...deliberately mispronouncing words (read: nuclear) to create a fabricated image of a simple, self-made "common man" who made it to the top without any intervention whatsoever from powerful family members and their friends....

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» RE: "Re-branding" John McCain.... Posted by: greenthumb
Since when....
Posted by: Captainmagic on Aug 21, 2008 5:18 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
has it been a requirement of the U.S.of A that it's presidante be equipped with any...friggin...any ounce, of moral or intestinal fortitude in order to be held in so called, high regard, within the walls of this peoples so called beacon of justice,..*The White House*

They say you are what you eat...Why is it tell me, that Americans continue, willingly to eat shit. Upsized....

Yet still they come...Bu$hCo,Chaineysaw, MacDeath,Obaoomerang.....represent amerikas decent into the abyss of international and financial oblivion.

To this they are prepared to missquote, missrepresent, any form of truth or justice to feather the nest of despicable people who cannot/do not care in the slightest for any kind of well being of any allies or otherwise, in any part of the world, as we, of the rest of the world know it as.

Read in.. Poland, Georgia. Mere stepping stones for invasion of Russian influence. It matters not that these silly bastards would have confligration of war cast upon their peoples and for what..for whom!!!

Don't give me that crap about them thar evil dooer commies. It's not washing in the 21st century. We see what the USA has demonstrated so convincingly that we easily see any kind of ruse of the likes that is being played out in Europe.

I bet the western Europeans are holding their breath and saying .."Here we go again"

I just wish they would all gather up and say..Thanxs.. but no thanxs.

"We are all Georgians now" what a crock of shit...Eat up me hearties..theres a plenty more where that came from....Your,,.. *White House* No matter who's in it!!!!!

Captain OUT

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» Here we go again indeed. Posted by: greenthumb
» RE: Since when.... Posted by: richholland
Conpoganda
Posted by: o on Aug 21, 2008 5:20 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
watch American Experience Hotel Hanoi on Netflix to gain some understanding of what these men went through. the reason this isnt of use to the Obama set is simple - it comes off like the whining of an attention seeking child.

it is useless, offers no new info and is probably staged precisely to have this effect. i think of it as conpoganda.

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Sometimes the truth hurts
Posted by: eksommer on Aug 21, 2008 5:27 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I never had any intention for voting for McCain because his politics are not mine, especially his desire to continue or even escalate military actions.

I would like to congratulate Philip Butler and his editors for an excellent piece of personal journalism. The story is balanced, compassionate, insightful, and revealing. And it sadly shows how the political machine of campaigns can skew and corrupt meaning and data. Thank you Mr. Butler.

The time for war in our society is over. There are too many casualties. In addition to the POWs, we have countless men and women suffering the aftermath of war with injuries, broken families, and PTSD.

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Amazing!
Posted by: GreyFoxThree on Aug 21, 2008 5:45 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Almost makes me view McBush as human. Still wouldnt vote for him though. Cant afford another four years of the Bush Regime.

RD
Ultimate Anonymity

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Thank you!
Posted by: packofwolves on Aug 21, 2008 5:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let me guess that this information will not be heard by the public as the lies about John Kerry were. This was quite refreshing to read but unfortunately it will probably not make a difference in the upcoming election. If John McCain is elected president I will consider this country doomed and on a course of no return.

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naoma
Posted by: Naoma on Aug 21, 2008 5:56 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
McCain keeps saying he knows "how to catch Osama Bin Laden." Why hasn't he told the
Bush administration how to do this? Also he
claims to know "how to win the war." Again,
tell the government these secrets.

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» RE: naoma Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: naoma Posted by: Sissy
Thank you Phillip Butler! Thank you Alternet!
Posted by: muktuk on Aug 21, 2008 5:57 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Phillip Butler's essay is poignant and civil in its discourse.

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LoL... Its explains a lot!
Posted by: Godfather89 on Aug 21, 2008 6:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now I know why John McCain speaks like as if he is trying to hold something in. Maybe he went to anger therapy, whatever the case is I don't want to see him in office since many laws give more power to the prez and since history has shown that he desired to break every rule in the rulebook while in the Navy, than I can only imagine what it would be for the position of President, same goes for Barack Obama.

Vote Chuck Baldwin

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not quite swift boating
Posted by: hcb1975 on Aug 21, 2008 6:53 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Dems are going to have to work a lot harder than this if they want to see McCain defeated. Of course he's one POW of many. However, he's the only POW running for President, and his campaign would be idiotic not to play it up. Remember the Swift Boat attacks against Kerry? Now those were effective, and they weren't even true. Perhaps the Dems could take some lessons from the GOP and find a better way to ruin McCain's service reputation.

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» RE: not quite swift boating Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: not quite swift boating Posted by: LionHeart
Actually makes McCain sound kind of cool
Posted by: form5166 on Aug 21, 2008 7:09 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and human and stuff. So what if this guy does not share the same political views and knew McCain like, 35 years ago or something and does not think that McCain suffered as much in Vietnam as he did. Kinda makes the writer sound like sour grapes to me.
I went to nursing school with people I swore that I would never let come near me with a needle, but they grew up. We all do, (nursing our grudges all the way it would seem, LOL.)

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This is no different than Republicans trashing....
Posted by: Allstar Cookie on Aug 21, 2008 7:12 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
....John Kerry for his military record.


Allstar Cookie

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» RE: You are right.... Posted by: logansafi
» RE: You are right.... Posted by: Ahimsa
» It's called denial. Posted by: greenthumb
» RE: hey pretend friend Posted by: cwilsondrum
It's the present, not the past
Posted by: Grandma Crabby on Aug 21, 2008 7:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Assuming this article is TRUE, it does not turn me against John McCain.

What turns me against john McCain is the outrageous things he does and says TODAY.

He doesn't know Sunni from Shia. He thinks the war should go for another 100 years. He likes to lie about the conditions in Iraq.

He seems to want to start other wars. He is in collusion with the jerks who deregulated the banking business and brought on the housing crisis. He kisses up to far right fundamentalist preachers. His brain seems to be in the ozone most of the time. He's a hot head.
He is in bed with the oil companies.

Now, all of those things matter much more to me than whether he was tortured for only 2 1/2 years of his imprisonment and not the entire time.

Some people claim John McCain's time as a POW was spent, not being tortured, but cozying up and spilling secrets to his captures. If THAT'S true, then I would say his lies on the campaign trail about his POW experiences are hopelessly shameful. But if it's just a matter of slight exaggerations like this article implies then I would say the lies are relatively minor and to be expected by a modern PR machine running for prez. I mean come on people, it's a lying stinking world out there. How many of you exaggerate on your resume? (I don't do that, but my driver's license says I am 120 pounds. LIAR, LIAR PANTS ON FIRE!)

John McCain would make a TERRIBLE president, maybe even worse than Bush. The only reason he is as popular as he is because the press coverage is highly skewed right. But my reasons for not liking McCain have little to do with him being a rule breaker when he was 20, or his ability to exaggerate his time in the Hanoi Hilton. It has to do with him being on the wrong side of every issue I believe in NOW.

Luv,
Granny

VideoProductionTips = Learn Internet Video

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» RE: It's the present, not the past Posted by: farmer's daughter
» RE: It's the present, not the past Posted by: Grandma Crabby
waynep
Posted by: waynep on Aug 21, 2008 7:48 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whenever I read anything of this nature , I NEVER send it on until I have fully "vetted" the source. That has been done in this case by people whom I trust, one of which is me! The guy is who he says he is, has done what he says he has done, and has had a successful professional career after his POW days vs. that being his career. There are other accounts out there indicating a much cozier existence for McCain as a POW, but I do not consider their stories to be any more credible than the swift boaters. Folks, Obama can NOT use this story . .doing so would be political suicide. You saw what the press did to Wesley Clark even though he was basically praising McCain, just mentioning that being a POW does not qualify you to be President. We, on the other hand, who are not running for president, can move this story right on along via the internet. Yes, it would be wonderful to see this mans report on main stream media, but we do not need them like we used to. It's up to me and you, so let's get with it. Incidentally, with McCain's team just acting so indignant at the suggestion that he "cheated" at the Saddleback set up, reasoning that he couldn't be lying because he was a POW.. it will be interesting as to how the go after this POW!

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» RE: waynep Posted by: greenthumb
I can't stand McCain...
Posted by: loxias on Aug 21, 2008 7:53 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But I just don't see what is so damning about that letter. So he was a drunken military freshman who neglected military duties. All they have to do is contrast Bush's record, and McCain IS a hero. So he votes to the right. He wouldn't be the pres. nominee if he didn't; that's what people who vote Republican WANT. This letter is damning only to the left. Democrats don't do subtext well. The only thing that people on the right respect is vitriol and conflagration. If Dem's wanted to win votes from the right, they would be showing videos and sound clips of McCain calling his wife trollop and cunt, posting his class records on front pages, jeering at his cancer, and calling out his beer money wife's drug stealing antics. This is what the working class devotees of the right clamor to see. They salivate on cue. Nicely written essays? Preaching to the choir.

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» RE: I can't stand McCain... Posted by: YogiBear
Kind of funny
Posted by: daniel1982 on Aug 21, 2008 8:04 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So how are these kinds of articles different than Kerry's swiftboating, besides the fact that it doesn't stick to McCain? I don't personally care. Politics are dirty, that's the nature of the beast. But you guys on the left tend to get this 'moral outrage' and attitude of "we're-better-than-this-level-of-discourse" every time you get hit. This 'outrage' lasts until you do the same thing, and then it's OK.

The irony is delicious, but apparently completely missed.

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» RE: Kind of funny Posted by: helenwheels
» RE: Kind of funny Posted by: stillcool
» RE: Kind of funny Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: Kind of funny Posted by: greenthumb
» RE: Kind of funny Posted by: cwilsondrum
IF THE TRUTH IS BE TOLD
Posted by: master09 on Aug 21, 2008 8:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the facts are that this man is simply to old to be president considering all of the problems in the country,the world and John McCain failures. I also believe that there are some people in the obama campaign that are not serving him well because there are so much shit about John McCain that they could be using and they won't be lies about; so whats is the problem? its the obama handlers; for example,there is no doubt that Carl Rove is knee deep in the McCain campaign, why not refresh the american peoples mind about this piece of waste everytime the McCain campaign uses a negative ad or statement. Carl Rove is filthy piece of sh*t that should be in jail and everyone knows it. What scare me the most is that some americans don't realize that a John McCain administration would be a Bush administration second string; Phil Graham as secretary of treasury, lindsey Graham Secretary of Defense and Joe liebman secretary of state; I can't get to sleep at night thinking about these possibilities.

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» RE: IF THE TRUTH IS BE TOLD Posted by: jeandarc
PRIVILEGE has given us too many losers already
Posted by: NotNeoCon on Aug 21, 2008 8:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Privilege got George W. Bush into, and through, Yale as an undergraduate and Harvard for an MBA. Both were unearned and undeserved - he was passed thru because of his privileged status.

When people are so privileged, but unmotivated to achieve to their God given abilities, they become liabilities to all around them, except those that are also pseudo-deserving because of their privilege. They are more often than not - miserable failures. And in George W. Bush's case will be judged by history as the worst President this country has ever had, a well earned and deserved distinction.

Unfortunately, John McCain falls into this category. We’ve had one privileged idiot as President - let's not have another. McCain did not deserve to attend the Naval Academy, and he didn't earn or deserve his graduation from such an august institution. And he sure as hell doesn’t deserve to be President. Read the book The Nightingale’s Song by Robert Timberg to gain a better perspective of this aspiring Presidential candidate and see if he has ever done anything, remotely, in his life that qualifies him for the Office!

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Thank You for for Your Service & Sacrific
Posted by: Purple Girl on Aug 21, 2008 8:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mac has betrayed all who have survived and died during service.
The Honor, integrity and and true patriotism it took to committ to such sacrific should never be cheapened by the ambitions of just one man.
We corrected the wrongs which occured to the troops returning home since Vietnam.We all agreed it is not the troops who should be held acountable for actions taken by the Gov't.
but then the 'swift boaters' paid no heed to the agreement we had made- in fact vilified anyone who was against the War Again!but are outraged we dare turn the same spot light on Mac....They opened this can of worms.
Mac's family conncetion, his skate through the academy, his assignment to flight, even after crashing planes during training, His repeated inaccuracies regarding what he really told the Vietcong- which NFL team - Senility or BS?
We also have the right to have Full disclosure about his medical conditions, not just age related, but injury related- and how the two together are effecting his ability to serve fully.
Although I will go after Mac regarding his service- I am not doing so to disrespect Any service persons sacrific or Honor.But Mac has used it as a shield, and that pisses me off as much as Hillary using the Womens movement to ward off any valid citizisms. It de values both groups.
Thanks Again..And I am sorry you were forced into such an Ill advised, planned & executed WAR.

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All Candidates stretch the truth....
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Aug 21, 2008 9:00 AM   
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but how far? if you want a real 'tell' from Mr. MCCain it would be his reliance on 'use of force' to create Peace and Stability. You'd think a guy shot down,mistreated, and POW to boot would be the last guy who would want use of force as a policy. Usually once you see just what war is,close up blood on your hands and all, you never want anyone else to go through it. That's usually. What's been the norm of late is to become a huge sabre-rattler
and swear to turn to dust everyone that gets in your way.
Last fall the Dems were squawking about bringing the troops home by Dec. '09. Well,that's off the table in favor of a more palatable Dec 2011 goal. Talk about a flip-flop! That's an outright 'shit-on' if you ask me.
So both these guys embelish their pasts. SO what. They're consumate liars. Grand son of a goat herder,valiant POW, does'nt mean shit.
Both sides of the carpet sweep with the same broom...TYRANNY. Both side will continue the war,it will just move about the globe like players on a chessboard. But we're the pawns.
We want a better America? We have to take it back. Not at the ballot box but in the halls of congress. We must disallow the Electoral College to cast a vote by blockade of the Capitol. Blockade polling places. Put 'polling place' signs on bathroom doors,for that's all our votes are worth. If you think diffrent....you're swimming in the Kool-aide.

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boohooo
Posted by: willd4change on Aug 21, 2008 9:18 AM   
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I am all for getting this knuckle beat in 08' He was just in Atlanta collecting his thousands from supporters and a proven dirty politician. Didn't see that on the national news, he must have learned to fly under the radar since getting his sorry ass shot down.

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I think the most important message in this essay is lost
Posted by: helenwheels on Aug 21, 2008 9:33 AM   
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Did anyone else hone in on the fact that once again it's reported that McLame is NOT RELIGIOUS?? That's what people ought to know. The guy can't even convincingly fake that he is. He just started going to church when he got the nod. And that oh-so important evangelical base that Obama's trying to court as well should know that, if they don't.

I agree that the Obama campaign would be wise to stay away from attacking McLame in any way connected with him being a POW. What we as anti-McLame people can do is just disseminate it ourselves because, as an above commenter mentioned, look at what happened to Wesley Clarke when he dared opine that being a POW doesn't make make one qualified to be president. If Obama goes that route, he's toast. Might be already anyway if he doesn't stop praising McLame. What the HELL is up with that??

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McCain even lies about his POW experience- he stole a story from the novel "The Gulag Archipelago"
Posted by: fanny666 on Aug 21, 2008 9:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First plagiarizing Wikipedia and now plagiarizing an emotionally and religiously charged anecdote from an Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn novel:

PANTS ON FIRE

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Check this out!
Posted by: writemrbond on Aug 21, 2008 9:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, here is a good video on the "cross in the sand" lie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4bTvhXMO7I

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rawebb
Posted by: Roger64 on Aug 21, 2008 9:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We're in a hell of a fix. We got a empty suit who happens to be black running against a burned out psychopath (and that's the right term for the guy described in this article).

Since I am neither rich nor stupid, I will vote for whomever the Democrats, but I do not have to be happy.

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Thank You For Your Service And Sharing
Posted by: rs98101 on Aug 21, 2008 10:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mr. Butler,

As an American half your age, I can't even imagine your ordeal as a POW. All I can do is thank you for serving your country under such difficult times.

Your analysis of John McCain as a presidential candidate has a lot of weight, as you too are a fellow POW. I think it is a tribute to your character that you can separate your shared crisis from your political endorsement.

I too believe McCain to be an American hero, but I do not endorse him for president. I touch on some of the issues you did in my article here:

Why This Libertarian Supports Obama

Like you, his blind support for the Iraq war is one of my main objections to McCain's politics. You have further bolstered my suspicion that McCain is more of a quipster and an image cultivator than a serious politician that is suited to lead this country in these difficult times.

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A simultaneous alternative convention
Posted by: Jay Bob on Aug 21, 2008 10:13 AM   
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In anticipation of the motley crowds of protesters and other assorted trouble-makers, the Denver authorities are working in cooperation with the DNC putting the final touches on the crowd control measures with which they intend to enforce the peace - and maintain decorum. No doubt that police action will be entirely justified by the inevitable presence of those mindless opportunists with nothing more to offer than the gratuitous mayhem that is their stock and trade.

But there will be others gathering in Denver who will have no access to be heard, who will find themselves outside the walls of the convention center and outside the political process but with much on their minds about the ominous state of the country they love which they have not heard discussed or given proper recognition by their Party or its candidates. It will be a shame, indeed, a tragedy if these disenfranchised citizens with legitimate concerns about their country but without flag lapel pins or other credentials, are treated no differently than the louts with nothing but destruction and violence on their minds.

It's a little late now, but wouldn't it have been fantastic if another facility could have been provided, maybe a large tent, where those with issues they wanted to be heard on could have had a place to assemble and had an audience with the Party Poobahs, members of the DNC, legislators and their staff people, Delegates, celebrates as well as appearances by the candidates. Perhaps a representative could have been selected by the group and allowed to speak before the convention. What a display of inclusivity. How better to demonstrate the Party's recognition of the full range of challenges tearing at the very substance of this great experiment in representative government we all know and love as America, and which requires at the very minimum extending the process beyond the confines of orthodoxy and ideology.

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A simultaneous alternative convention
Posted by: Jay Bob on Aug 21, 2008 10:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Very sorry. This comment was itended for:

AlterNet.org August 21, 2008
A Working Guide to That 'Other' Convention in Denver
By Don Hazen, AlterNet.

http://www.alternet.org/election08/95828/

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Sacred Ground
Posted by: beautifulady2003 on Aug 21, 2008 11:15 AM   
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Somehow the news media has made McCain's POW record sacrosanct, above any questioning and any criticism or scrutiny, as if by doing so it would be impolite or in bad taste. Wesley Clark got trounced for his comments about it, even though he didn't say anything outrageous or critical of Senator McCain. He merely stated the obvious, that being a POW doesn't make someone qualified to be president.

McCain's gotten a free pass from day one; while Democrats were raked over the coals (Bill Clinton and his Obama remarks, John Edwards' affair, etc.). McCain calls his wife a cu*t in front of thousands of people, and it's ok. John McCain has an affair with a rich woman while blathering about "family values." Today, McCain archly informs the world that he's not sure how many homes he and his wife own.

Maybe it's partisanship. The news media is largely owned by wealthy conservatives who also happened to lose their collective voice (and their reason) post-9/11 when it was OK to thrown 5,000 Muslims in jail here in the US without charging them with a crime, and civil liberties took a nosedive from then. The MSM and the conservatives love to barbeque any Democrat who gives them the slightest cause, but they put away the marshmallows and hurry to put out the fire when it's one of their own.

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Thank you
Posted by: operdoc on Aug 21, 2008 11:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you for coming forward with your honest appraisal. I'd be happy to see him with his finger on a television remote. Beyond that, I shudder.

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What is scary..
Posted by: LionHeart on Aug 21, 2008 11:58 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've read a few sensible posts on here about this topic, but by far most demonstrate uninformed misunderstandings swayed by the numerous smear web sites and campaigns.

Sorry, but the ignorance of McCain experience and it's relevence to the election demonstrated on here explains how Bush got elected.. People believe ANYTHING in print or they are told..

We should be embarassed to even be allowed to vote!

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» RE: What is scary.. Posted by: hcb1975
» RE: What is scary.. Posted by: beautifulady2003
» RE: What is scary.. Posted by: cwilsondrum
What WE can do about it....
Posted by: ibemee on Aug 21, 2008 1:56 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...why is everyone waiting to see - and/or lamenting that they do NOT see - Obama or his campaign DOING SOMETHING ABOUT THIS??

WE can and should EACH do something about it... but it seems that we're all too ready to write a critical analysis HERE ...but unwilling to send copies of this article to their own LOCAL & STATE Democratic Central Committees and to email copies of it to their LOCAL NEWSPAPERS and TV stations.
Believe me, when any media gets a lot of replies about any given subject, they DO perk up. (the squeeky gate factor)
For many years now, I have felt so discouraged about the way Democrats do all the complaining but NO Action. If WE can't/won't learn to make a CONCERTED EFFORT against this doddering old Magoo/McCain we WILL be stuck with 4 more years of bushCo. 4 more years will polish off our Democracy and further establish the World Domination these Imperialists are working for.

What will you tell your grandchildren when they ask you why you allowed it to happen? Will they understand when you respond: "I complained about it all the time" ????

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Swiftboating attempt
Posted by: SouthernWolf on Aug 21, 2008 1:57 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
John McCain was a good and brave man during Nam... but, but, but...
But what?
I'd much sooner have a man as President who broke Navy rules and has or had a hot temper than a man like Bush who didn't have the spine to fight in Nam, makes up his own rules and has a hot temper. Or, for that matter, a man like Obama who has never experienced war, has little experience in government and appears to have a messianic complex.
Give McCain a break. Maybe it's time to elect someone from the Nam generation before they all die.

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» RE: Swiftboating attempt Posted by: stillcool
» RE: Swiftboating attempt Posted by: SouthernWolf
Eagleeye
Posted by: eagleeye on Aug 21, 2008 2:14 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a victim of Agent Orange I have no love for the Air Force, and especially John McCain who is a mass murderer. He was dropping bombs on the center of Hanoi killing innocent unarmed people when he crashed in the middle of the city. I've seen those b*stered drop napalm, white phosphorus (Willy Peter) cluster bombs, daisy cutters, 500 lbs block busters, and yes Agent Orange on peasant villages and resettlement camps. Why? It's a sport, a sick sport that is going on now in Iraq and Afghanistan. The other day they killed a dozen of their own. They don't give a s*it. Take my word for it, if elected president, the first thing he'll do is bomb Iran and then fire nuclear missiles at Russia. That guy is crazy. Like me he has post Traumatic Stress. He's a loose canon. He's as crazy as Hitler. There's no telling what he'll do to Vietnam. Torture??? It's time we talk about the Pheonix Program and the CIA's methods of torture at their interrogation sheds at every province in Vietnam. It makes Abu Graib look like a Sunday School picnic by comparison.

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You walk the line well
Posted by: Vic Fedorov on Aug 21, 2008 3:48 PM   
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You walk the line well. You seem very fair. I am sorry you were captured. Peace be with you.

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Mr. Butler
Posted by: yourewastingyourtime on Aug 21, 2008 3:58 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree that being a POW is neither a prerequisite nor an automatic qualification to be elected President of The United States.....It is also NOT a qualification to be a political commentator. Thank you for your service, but you sound bitter and seem to be making your judgement about Mr. McCain from a personal standpoint rather than a political/issues standpoint.

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No valid reasons against McCain here
Posted by: dayahka on Aug 21, 2008 4:10 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
McCain is the last person I would ever vote for, but to be fair the author of this article has not presented a valid case against McCain. So he broke the rules at West Point? Good for him. The service academies must be about the dullest places an intelligent man would want to be. It shows that he had more imagination than blind obedience.

So he came in near the bottom of his class? Good for him. He was probably learning better things. Anyway, he's in fairly good company. Einstein was judged too stupid to graduate; and St. Thomas Aquinas was known as the dumb ox.

So he has a bad temper? Clinton had an explosive temper; Bush is a foul-mouthed and anger-ridden.

OK, so there were many other POWs with medals who did what John did. OK, but the others didn't see fit to go into public service or to make use of their situation. So?

So McCain is kowtowing to every jackal alive to get to be president--kissing up to hated men, falsely claiming religious faith, etc. So? This seems to be the price of success in politics in an America that is simultaneously the most violent and religious nation on earth.

If you're going to oppose someone, oppose his policies and philosophy.

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ba
Posted by: mnstra on Aug 21, 2008 7:30 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seems like a sincere discussion and account.
Would you vote for GW Bush ?. Is his finger too close to the red button/?
He has already pushed the button. It has been Armageddon for our economy and the working people of America. How may millions has his war cost in lives. He is more responsible for more deaths than the two atom bombs dropped in WW2/ Would you vote for him?
I cant Imagine any worse president yet to come.

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Can a Leopard change his spots?
Posted by: billparlette on Aug 22, 2008 12:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a '60 USNA grad of the year prior to that of the article author Philip Butler '61, and two years following the '58 class of John McCain, I also was exposed personally to his capricious and vicious "humor" through an imposed "come around" to his room. No, I do not remember for what triviality, and it was only once. Sufficient, however, to recall vividly with amazement even today that this, 'er, ahem, abusive and choleric JERK could have been honored with an appointment to the USNA, to become known then to his own classmates as to those following, as one willing to abuse the honor and Midshipman's oath taken on entry, through such frivolous and seemingly deliberate violations.

I do not see this as a long-ago "grudge" by me, but rather as a weakness of the "oath system" which - as we can see so clearly in our 2008 political process - does not require continually reviewed obligation by our politicians and representatives - both parties - to live up to the oath they so lightly took on gaining office, the oath re upholding the Constitution, laws nat'l and int'l, Geneva Convention concerning torture, etc.... What to do? Well, we can see clearly what NOT to do. Do whatever it takes to keep such a hothead scoundrel away from this ultimately important responsibility. WTP

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McBush
Posted by: GreyFoxThree on Aug 22, 2008 4:29 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
LOL, jsut the thought of McBush being anywhere near "the button" sends shivers down my spine!

RD
http://www.Privacy-Center.net

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The "truth" doesn't matter
Posted by: blogbooks on Aug 22, 2008 4:17 PM   
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If a person appears to be a thing, and you perceive him to be a thing, then what does some supposed "underlying truth" have to do with the matter?

It doesn't.

Your entire perception of reality is based on bull shit.

If you tell me you're a trained fighter with 10 years of experience, and then beat the crap out of me, thus demonstrating your prowess, does it really matter that you're actually just some guy that watches MMA?

Perception IS reality. Stop looking for depth in the shallows of existence.

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Once a Hero; Now a Coward
Posted by: Constitutional_Patriot on Aug 23, 2008 1:29 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
McCain may have been a hero - once, forty years ago, under circumstances I would not wish on my worst enemies.

But he is now a coward.

When confronted with moral choices that might result in the loss of property, possessions and power, all wealthy folks are cowards. As Jesus said, "It is harder...for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven". And McCain is a perfect example of what he was talking about.

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The Right Has Had The Same Talking Points Since The
Posted by: desidid on Aug 25, 2008 5:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
campaign began. Because Americans learn by the rote message. That being said we have to combat the oft repeated lies with the never spoken truth. If you don't want to hear it anymore, stop clicking on the stories. That's the beauty of freedom, you do have a choice.

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One of many instances
Posted by: James T. Ranney on Aug 25, 2008 5:42 AM   
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I cannot locate it right now, but some general made a similar comment about McCain's temper, calling it "very scarey."
Plus, on the environment, despite what McCain SAYS about being a big supporter of Teddy Roosevelt, etc, as to how he actually VOTES, the League of Conservation Voters has their lifetime records as follows: McCain = 26%; Obama = 96%.

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Elect John McCain
Posted by: HappyN on Sep 6, 2008 5:38 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think it's despicable for army Colonel Earl Hopper to be ratting out John McCain for helping the North Vietnamese to set up defensive positions for future air raids and escape routes of U.S. Navy bombers. There's an unwritten, but well understood, rule amongst soldiers that "what happens in POW camps stays in POW camps," and Hopper knows this rule very well. To bring up McCain's collaboration with the enemy 35 years ago and reveal that the Vietnamese nickname for him was "Songbird", now that he's running for the Presidency, is truly playing dirty tricks Obama style. People who have never been in such a situation think that everyone can be a Jack Bauer character like on the TV show 24 and withstand all sorts of torture. John didn't want to go through all this torture and, knowing he would eventually talk, simply avoided the torture and told them what they wanted to know before hand. He's not the only one, I can assure you, and I don't think that it should disqualify him from running for the Presidency.

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McCain the Hypocrite
Posted by: DdC on Sep 12, 2008 5:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Finally the "mainstream investigators" find what we posted months ago?
How special...

http://tinyurl.com/mcon-truth

Then there's the drugs given to McCain as a POW.
FSTV has a good special about McCons POW daze.

I Spent Years as a POW with John McCain, and His Finger Should Not Be Near the Red Button By Phillip Butler, Military.com. Posted August 21, 2008.
Submitted by gbrhynes007-2 on Tue, 2008-09-02 19:02.

Thursday, September 11, 2008
The McCain drug story

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This Deja Vu crap is getting old
Posted by: DdC on Sep 12, 2008 9:44 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This Deja Vu crap is getting old,
it ain't Deja Vu, its liars and selective memory.
Or rather underestimating the memory of the people.
They think it's still almost foolproof,
with the "media" controlling the info. No net, no orgs and coms.
They can say what they need and repeat it,
and reference the first fairy tale as proof the second is real.
McBushy and Pagan aren't the first with spuces abusing white powders and booze. Wonder if Betty got bombed cause hubby was hiding Ganja cancer treatment studies?

Or McCon on his own sleep disorder, and treating his cancer and those flashbacks Nexxon promised? Donkey Cong prison camp MKULTRA. Surprise, someone with connections gets favorable treatment.

Wealthy kids don't care about Higher Education Acts banning them from loans for life... Seniors getting kicked out of public housing because their relatives were smoking pot in the parking lot, McCon has 8 or so houses think he gives a shit? Loose foodstamps for life. Fail a pisstaste, that's just a fabricated market, high chance of false positive, that won't do a damn thing about inebriated workers, and it really depends on who says it is, and maybe just the bossman wants to rid the world of whistleblowers. Deterrents. Workers are selling themselves to a cock and bull story. All coincidently producing more tax revenue by filling the prisons with low wage earning hungry nonviolent people, bound to steal, run dope or grow pot to survive. Supply and Demand, since we still legalize prison slave labor.
We know who lies and we let them.

Congressional Family Drug Offenders

Escape Mandatory Sentences, Get Favorable Treatment .
-- Cunningham, Shelby,Watts November - December 1998 .
First - Our Fearless " Tough on Drugs" xU.S. Attorney General

Alex Ashcroft - Drug warrior, AG, xGovernor John Ashcroft's nephew
CLAUDE SHELBY - SON OF U.S. SEN. RICHARD SHELBY (R-AL)
DARLENE WATTS - SISTER OF U.S. REP. J.C. WATTS (R-OK)
CINDY McCAIN - Wife of Sen. John McCain (R-AZ)
DAN BURTON II - Son of U.S. Rep. Dan Burton (R-IN)
Richard Riley, Jr., son of Education Secretary Richard Riley
Gayle Rosten, daughter of then-U.S. House Ways and Means
Committee chairman Dan Rostenkowski (D-IL)
John Murtha, son of U.S. Rep. John Murtha (D-PA)
Susan Gallo, daughter of U.S. Rep. Dean Gallo (R-NJ
Warren Bachus, son of U.S. Rep Spencer Bachus (R-AL)
Josef Hinchey, son of Rep. Maurice Hinchey (D-NY)
John C. Baker, the son of future Secretary of State James Baker III

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