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Election 2008

Obama and McCain Offer Two Very Different Kinds of Heroism

By Ira Chernus, AlterNet. Posted July 30, 2008.


Conservative cultural critics have been lamenting the decline of heroism in America for years. Now Obama is challenging their narrative.
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Americans have never been very eager to turn war heroes into presidents. George Washington did not set much of a precedent. Only five of the 42 who followed (Jackson, W.H. Harrison, Taylor, Grant and Eisenhower) made their reputations in war. In the 20th century a few could claim minor war heroics (Teddy Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy, George H.W. Bush), but at the century's end a onetime war protester, Bill Clinton, handily defeated two veterans of "the good war": a onetime fighter pilot, Bush (even though he'd waged a successful war in Iraq), and a permanently disabled warrior, Bob Dole.

Now we are at war again, and the stock of war heroes seems to be on the rise. Although the war is unpopular, the candidate whose main claim to fame is wartime heroism has a chance to win in 2008, or so the polls suggest. The same polls say that John McCain trails Barack Obama on nearly every issue except war, national security and "strong leadership." Never underestimate the polling power of a war hero, or the power of a hero to whip up public support for a war -- especially if that hero is the president of the United States. That's why the question of heroism and its appeal matters to all of us.

Conservative cultural critics have been lamenting the decline of heroism in America for years. Their argument is at the heart of the McCain campaign. It goes like this:

People become heroes -- they muster the courage it takes to suffer and risk all for others -- by strictly controlling their selfish impulses. By demonstrating self-discipline, heroes prove their superior character. And that earns them the right to wield political authority. Only people with such strong self-control deserve to be in charge of controlling social boundaries. Only a hero's example can control the impulses of the unruly mob and maintain the social order.

But, the conservative argument continues, in our postmodern society everything is just image -- including heroism. Few of us can distinguish any longer between real heroes like Sgt. Alvin York or Audie Murphy, who risked genuine suffering or even death, and fictional ones like Ironman or Indiana Jones, whose risk and suffering is all make-believe. As the fictional heroes become the models for all heroism, we come to believe that the impossible can be done effortlessly, with no need for the enormous self-discipline that is the essence of real heroism.

We are blind to real heroism because we take it as nothing but image. The success of "Swift boating" in 2004 showed how readily the public will accept an advertising campaign in place of the historical reality of heroism.

The worst effects show up among America's young people. Having grown up in a time without real heroes, they know about heroism only from screen-image substitutes. So they fondly imagine that they, too, can achieve great things without strenuous effort and self-discipline. They expect to "do their own thing," "let it all hang out," blur all cultural boundaries and still somehow lead successful lives. And when they are presented with genuine heroes, the young turn cynical and refuse to be guided by their betters. They may even refuse to follow the authorities into war when our nation's very existence is at stake.

This year Republicans find the demise of heroism tragic not only for American society but for their party, because they think they've got an authentic hero as their candidate. And it's no coincidence that he gained his laurels in war. War has always been the prime arena for the kind of heroism that most Americans have prized. It all started with the Minutemen (or so the story goes): ordinary farmers who knew evil when they saw it, picked up their guns to defeat it, and then went back to their ordinary, everyday lives. They mustered the courage to do extraordinary deeds, to risk suffering and death, because they knew that democracy was worth every sacrifice.

That's the uniquely democratic brand of heroism that the McCain campaign boasts of: ordinary people rising to extraordinary heights by controlling their selfish impulses in order to hold the line against an evil that threatens from beyond our borders. Recognizing that line and defending it at all costs is the essence of heroism, American-style.

Or at least it was, until the United States tried to act out the old Minuteman story once more in Vietnam. By the time that war ended, many of us had learned to be skeptical of anyone who claims that all goodness is on our side of the line and all evil on the other side. That's another big reason heroism has fallen into disrepute -- and another big reason conservatives want so desperately to restore its reputation.

It's all part of the same package, McCain supporters say: loss of heroes, questioning of war, cynicism toward authority, skepticism about rigid lines separating good from evil, glorification of impulse, and the decline and fall of America as a morally healthy nation with a stable social structure. It all hangs together. And it all started in -- you guessed it -- "the '60s"!

Republican candidates started running against "the '60s" 40 years ago. They are still doing it because, more often than not, it has worked. The trick is to tweak the campaign by giving the attack on "the '60s" a new symbolic image and new code words from time to time.

Four years ago, the key symbolic words were "homeland security." Although George W. Bush never suffered or even fought on a real battlefield, he campaigned successfully as the heroic leader of a global war on terrorism, holding the line against evil everywhere. John Kerry suffered not only from the advertising attack on his heroism, but from his youthful change of heart. After leading his crew in numerous battles against the enemy, he returned home and crossed over to the other side, supporting the peace movement's protest against the government's simplistic story of good vs. evil. That refusal to hold the symbolic line may have cost him the presidency.

Of course it's equally possible that the Vietnam War years had little to do with Kerry's defeat. Perhaps we have indeed put Vietnam behind us. Perhaps the American people want a new kind of hero not related to war at all.

The McCain campaign is betting heavily against that possibility. It's doing all it can to make this election another referendum on the '60s and the Vietnam War by asking voters to endorse the enduring value of war heroism. By coupling McCain's Vietnam heroics with his "No Surrender" stand on Iraq, it is trying to make the election a broader referendum on the cultural meaning of war itself.

Today, the key symbolic code words for the pro-war, anti-'60s campaign are "patriot" and "hero," both prefaced by the adjective "real." The McCain campaign portrays its candidate as the ultimate citizen-soldier, an ordinary human who rose to a superhuman level by courageously enduring superhuman suffering.

Why could he do it? Because, according to his campaign, he was so dedicated to serving his nation by maintaining the boundary between good and evil. McCain's job was to drop bombs on people because their nation was supposedly on the wrong side of the moral line. Had he not been shot down, who knows how many years he would have spent at that task? He became a hero, the story tells us, because he had the courage to do whatever it takes to stop evildoers.

In fact, McCain was not just "an ordinary guy." He was born into Navy aristocracy, raised among upper-echelon officers who were not likely to suffer even during wartime. Even now, though he did suffer terribly and is permanently disabled, he makes sure that in the public eye he never looks like he is suffering. He has worked hard to cultivate a mild "common man" image that masks the aggressive face of the warrior hero (though the mask sometimes cracks in private, we are told, under the pressure of his terrible temper).

If there must be suffering, McCain's face seems to say, I will take it meekly upon myself in a Christ-like way, as I did so many years ago. Yet don't be fooled, his words say. Behind my gentle demeanor lies a God-like wrath that will be inflicted surely and swiftly on evildoers who threaten our nation.

That's exactly the kind of heroism American culture has always valued most, the kind that seemed in danger of disappearing in a cloud of '60s pot smoke. In a post-9/11 world, where symbols of holding the line seem both so outdated and so necessary, a rebirth of heroism wrapped in the flag is a message many voters may find hard to resist. How many? With most polls showing McCain trailing, but usually within or near the margin of error, it is impossible to predict.

The Obama campaign is watching those polls, too, and it is certainly not ignoring the power of heroism. But since its candidate has never been to war, and he won the nomination on the strength of his stand against the Iraq War, it presents him as a very different kind of hero -- not an Andrew Jackson, not an "ordinary-man-does-extraordinary-things in war" kind of hero, indeed not an ordinary man at all. Obama appears as the reincarnation of Lincoln: another self-made man from Illinois who rose out of ordinary surroundings to reveal the extraordinary gifts he was born with.

In this story, the innately extraordinary hero grew up in a humble setting. He might almost have been born in a manger in a stable. Now he chooses to work in the same kind of humble setting with ordinary people like us, to take on our sufferings as his own, to share his transcendent gifts with us all.

Unlike McCain, who often looks like he has donned a mask of tranquility to hide his suffering, Obama often has a slightly pained look on his face, as if he wears a mask of suffering while the true self behind it transcends all earthly cares. His look of suffering speaks of his continuing care for, and contact with, the suffering underclasses he once served as an organizer. It speaks of his continuing commitment to use his extraordinary talents for the good of ordinary folks everywhere.

If you haven't seen this kind of heroism in Obama, watch some of his public appearances and commercials again. Look at the way he sounds, the way interacts with people, the way he carries himself, with an eye out for the imagery of a transcendent savior who has come down to serve us all. Make up your own mind if it's there or not.

If it is there (as I'm pretty sure it is), Obama's success suggests that a large portion of the American people may be ready for a truly elite leader, as long as he or she is outwardly clothed in the Lincolnian narrative of the common person. The American people may no longer want a war hero, but a peace hero.

A war hero inspires by having exercised, in the past, a superhuman self-control that offers us a model for restraining our own natural impulses. A peace hero inspires by who he or she is in the present. By merely doing what seems to come naturally, a peace hero offers a model for releasing the natural goodness within each of us.

A war hero is a mere mortal who protects the rest of us by preserving the boundary lines between good and evil against every threat. A peace hero seems more than human, because he or she has the courage to cross boundary lines -- lines of race, class, gender, nationality, ethnicity, religion -- and therefore ultimately crosses the line between human and superhuman.

A war hero comes to seem more than human by treating enemies as less than human and raining death down upon them. A peace hero comes to seem fully human by treating all others as fully human and giving them the fullness of life.

Obama is perfectly suited to be a peace hero because both his transcendent gifts and his mortal being symbolize the union of opposites. He bears the very visible mark of his human origin, which crossed the most sacred of American boundaries, the race line. In his life he has spanned the class spectrum, seeming to be equally comfortable with all from the top to the bottom. Uniting such profound opposites in his genetic makeup and his biography, he can symbolize the uniting of all opposites. And he can symbolize the pressing need to bring enemies together because he seems to stand so far above the merely mortal fray.

Many Obama supporters are not looking for a hero at all. They are skeptical about the idea that one person could be somehow superior to the rest of us. They are suspicious about any person who claims to have authority over others. The skepticism and suspicion are healthy. But they can be pushed too far. They can cost Obama a lot of votes.

More importantly, they can allow the right wing to keep the control it has had for four decades over the idea of heroism, just as it has controlled the idea of patriotism, the flag and all the symbolic trappings of "America."

The Vietnam War cast the meanings of all those symbols radically in doubt. The 9/11 attack might have done the same. But since the '60s the Left, rather than fighting to capture those symbols, has turned away from the symbols and the fight, letting the conservatives win tremendous cultural victories by default. That makes it easier for them to continue their wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and start new wars elsewhere.

So despite all the valid reasons for eschewing the whole idea of "an American hero," those of us who want to dampen the public enthusiasm for future wars would do well to consider promoting Barack Obama as an extraordinary American peace hero. Obama offers us a precious opportunity to separate "hero" from "war" and give heroism in America a new meaning that's in many ways the opposite of the old war heroism.

We might well be thankful to have a hero who appears to descend from above us. For too long we have lived with the myth that our presidents, like our war heroes, must be common people who are now empowered to rise above us and do whatever they like. If we want to restore some measure of genuine democracy to our political life, we might be better off with a president whom we view as extraordinary.

Then we, the people, must bring that president down to our own mundane level by subjecting him or her to all the political pressures we can bring to bear. A hero brought down from on high may be less dangerous, and less likely to lead us to war, than a hero raised up from below -- as long as we are ready to keep the pressure on from day one.

AlterNet is a nonprofit organization and does not make political endorsements. The opinions expressed by our writers are their own.

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See more stories tagged with: obama, mccain, heroism

Ira Chernus is a professor of Religious Studies at the University of Colorado at Boulder and author of Monsters to Destroy: The Neoconservative War on Terror and Sin.

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No war hero
Posted by: Democritus on Jul 30, 2008 5:19 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a veteran, I take issue with Ira Chernus's assumption that John McCain is a "war hero." Most of McCain's medals were "won" while he was a POW. During his years in captivity McCain was interrogated and revealed more than his name, rank, and serial number. His statements were used for propaganda purposes by the Vietnamese.

His Vietnamese interrogator was interviewed recently and claimed that McCain was not tortured into admitting he was an "air pirate," but was merely threatened with the withholding of medical attention. By this time his captors knew that his father was CINCPAC, and that McCain's being kept alive was important for their war effort.

Many other POWs suffered more and said less. Had John McCain not been "connected" his actions might have been subject to a court martial. No matter how the Republican Party might spin it, McCain does not merit the name of "war hero."

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» RE: No war hero Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» RE: No war hero Posted by: djnoll
» RE: No war hero Posted by: Livemike
» RE: No war hero Posted by: Democritus
» RE: No war hero Posted by: donl51
» Overlooked! Posted by: donl51
Heroism
Posted by: usmarks on Jul 30, 2008 7:06 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I understand McCain's time as a prisoner in Viet Nam was not as heroic as it has been portrayed. I'm thinking that heroism should include some aspect of personal growth, as in John Kerry's service there and change of heart afterwards. The leader who can admit that McCain serves as a symbol of heroic service to the U.S. but to the North Viet Namese he was an "enemy combatant" is someone, I think, this country needs to begin this new millenium, especially after our first false start. I see McCain talk about victory and winning like he's talking about a high school football game instead of our country illegally invading another sovereign nation to further the unfettered exploitation of that nations's natural resources by private industry I feel ill. As some have observed he defines winning as simply staying indefinitely. When I see him singing "bomb Iran" he appears as a total buffoon and a dangerous man to put in charge of anything. The world doesn't work like it did in the 60s and this nation needs to move beyond that worldview. We must have a leader that can show us, by example, how a new, and honest definition of heroism can lead this nation and the world to improved conditions for all.

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» RE: Heroism Posted by: greenPuker
Demeaning to concept of Hero
Posted by: mnascimento on Jul 30, 2008 8:20 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
John McCain was shot down and captured. What is it exactly, that was heroic? Did he drop napalm on little children first?

I have a difficult time accepting this privileged, unintelligent man as anything but someone who distains government healthcare for the masses even though he has enjoyed it all of his life.

He also opposed the GI bill educational benefits, even though he got a free ride through Annapolis, and showed his gratitude to his country by nearly flunking out.

I would like to see the word applied more judiciously in the future. Maybe reserved for selfless acts of courage, rather than haplessness and ineptitude.

John McCain is another Bush. A man about whom assumptions of superiority are made because he was born into a family powerful enough to cover his ass.

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» RE: Demeaning to concept of Hero Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com
A New Kind of Heroism!
Posted by: greenPuker on Jul 30, 2008 8:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Carnegie Mellon Professor Randy Pausch (Oct. 23, 1960 - July 25, 2008) gave his last lecture at the university Sept. 18, 2007, before a packed McConomy Auditorium while in the terminal stages of Pancreatic Cancer. In his moving presentation, "Really Achieving Your Childhood Dreams," Pausch talked about his lessons learned and gave advice to everyone on how to achieve their own career and personal goals. The lecture is awesome and inspiring and demostrates the pithy addage of the truely brave... "Death..where is thy sting!"

For more, visit www.cmu.edu/randyslecture.

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» RE: A New Kind of Heroism! Posted by: weathered
Unfit McCain is no war hero!
Posted by: HughScott on Jul 30, 2008 8:23 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just finished investigating the Arizona senator's "heroic" POW record. You can read a summary on my new nonprofit Web site: www.UnfitMcCain.com

The home page banner says, "Five reasons why you should not vote for Sen. McCain in 2008", which are:

1. He will continue President Bush's belligerent foreign policy which led to the unjustified and unending Iraq War that has killed more than 4,000 U.S. military personnel, decimated our armed forces and added mega-billions to the national debt.

2. McCain has endorsed the failed Bush economic policies that are destroying the middleclass, causing jobs to go overseas, pushing homeowners into foreclosure and endangering the future of our offspring for decades to come.

3. McCain is America's "Number One Neocon" with direct ties to Bill Kristol's rightwing extremist oganization, Project for a New American Century (PNAC), which promoted regime change in Iraq before 9/11 and wants to dominate the world with U.S. military power.

4. During the 2008 presidential campaign, McCain showed he lacked the necessary integrity to be commander-in-chief by flip-flopping on major issues -- such as torture, off-shore drilling and the 2001 Bush tax cuts that favored America's wealthiest citizens.

5. Finally, McCain distorted his POW record and exploited it for political gain.

The last reason summarizes my facts-check of "Songbird" McCain's dishonorable behavior in North Vietnam. Part of the information is based on my recent communications with a former POW.

If you agree with my findings and love America, please tell your friends and family about UnfitMcCain.com.

Hugh E. Scott, Vietnam veteran, lifelong registered Republican and former McCain supporter.

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» RE: Unfit McCain is no war hero! Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Unfit McCain is no war hero! Posted by: Democritus
» RE: Unfit McCain is no war hero! Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Unfit McCain is no war hero! Posted by: Democritus
» To C-B from donl51 Posted by: donl51
» RE: Unfit McCain is no war hero! Posted by: Democritus
» Thanks for the plug, Len. Posted by: HughScott
Changing paridigms; Find the "hero" within
Posted by: kmcd on Jul 30, 2008 8:55 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Americans should grow up and stop looking for a hero in a president and instead look for a hero within.

The key reasons why Obama should be our next president is that he is a transformational leader -- which is not defined by a person's age and/or "experience" by traditional definitions. Obama has the ability to bring people of differing ideologies, cultures, religions and politics together to solve problems -- and then, he will manage the implementatons of those solutions through execution. Transformational leaders come a long once in a lifetime -- and are absolutely necessary for social change.

Obama believes in the fundamentals of our Constitution and will restore it after 8 years of decimation by the Bush regime.

Obama is willing to think outside the box. Just about every paradigm is changing, and Obama is open to those changes, whether it be views about national security, health care, public education -- or how to run a political campaign.

McCain's whole essence is the old paradigm -- and that doesn't have ANY thing to do with age. McCain's views on most matters are solely rooted in a military perspective -- but it's the old perspective that will only lead us into more and more endless conflicts that beget endless conflicts.

The question isn't: Are Americans going for a war-hero or a peace hero?

The question is: What is the character of the American people? Is it based in fear, loathing and a quest for a false hero? Or is it based in wisdon, boldness, individual contribution and accountability, and a fundamental quest for "...truth, justice and the American way?"

I believe the latter.

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» RE: Changing paridigms- huh? Posted by: particle61
Not even the Wizzard can give you courage -no how, no way!
Posted by: carbon-based on Jul 30, 2008 9:03 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Great article , right up to the point the author tried to paint Obama as a hero. I had agreed that the term “hero” is overused and has almost become meaningless.. It’s ascribed to almost anyone who is in the position to act! It really got overused in 9/11. EVERYONE was a hero.

I lived on Staten Island at the time of 9/11. I remember going to my favorite diner and once seeing a group of cops come in.. They have done so for as long as I could remember.. All of a sudden they are in NYPD shirts with weapons exposed! Which when off duty is against all regs. Heros? unlikely- now getting a free meal - likely.. NYFD Rescue 5 on SI, which was nearly wiped out to the man, qualifies as heros.

Is a firefighter that does his job every day a hero? Why were the firefighters who were killed on 9/11 hero’s and some killed the day after in another fire not!

Compare a cop chasing a robber with a marine who throws him/her-self on a grenade to save his/her fellow marines?

So that brings us to McCain vs Obama.. McCain isn’t a hero because he has combat experience or was shot down or was imprisoned. He’s a hero because he sacrificed his freedom for those he was imprisoned with! JFK is a hero not because he was careless enough to get his PT boat cut in half but because of the personal risk he took to save his men.

Obama isn’t a hero by any definition. He has character, determination, drive, a vision, but no hero and I doubt he would even suggest he is on the same level as McCain or JFK in that regard!

One small point regarding this statement “ --- In fact, McCain was not just "an ordinary guy." He was born into Navy aristocracy, raised among upper-echelon officers who were not likely to suffer even during wartime. “. ---- It is clear the author knows NOTHING about Adm. John S McCain, McCains grandfather. He was one of the key players in the naval war during WW2.. He didn’t sit behind a desk, but commanded a carried task group. Combat stress caused a serious illness and he died a few days after the surrender of Japan. Not the soft job the author believes. BTW, the last thing a career naval men/women wants is to sit behind a desk. Command and action are the ultimate!

“”Yet don't be fooled, his words say. Behind my gentle demeanor lies a God-like wrath that will be inflicted surely and swiftly on evildoers who threaten our nation.”” – This is EXACTLY what a commander in chief needs to be!

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» additionally, Posted by: carbon-based
» You've a good point Posted by: donl51
Heros come in diffrent forms than the press feed us
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Jul 30, 2008 10:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
PLATFORM of the People Over Tyrants Party

Because of the current trends in National and Foreign Policy and the many and varied forms of tyranny our people are being exposed to,we have formed from the People, a Party, that is For the People. This is our
vision of how we get the Country back for the People,restore our Liberty,Freedom,and Peace,here and now.
NO MORE WARS.
This country has 'made' the enemies we now face through corrupt policy in the name of 'Profits'.
We cease all weapons sales,development and deployment.
Close all bases on foriegn soils,begin TOTAL DISARMAMENT with pacts of Non- Aggression.
END ALL BLACK PROJECTS FUNDING. Disband the C.I.A., Homeland Security,and the DEA.
All monies would be 'redirected' to Free Education for ALL People, K- Grad School.
PROTECT THE EARTH
RESTORE ALL TREATY LANDS and NATION STATUS to ISLAND PEOPLES.
Restore the 'Roadless' Laws in perpituity.Ban clear cut forestry operations. End logging in National Forests. 1,000 year moritorium on mining. Restore the Great Lakes and rivers.
Force Industry to be 'inert' environmentally, Force Auto Industry to make High Mileage Hybred cars and trucks.EXTREME CONTROLS on pesticides and fretilizers and emmissions.
Heavy reliance on Solar,Wind, Hydro Generation, Hemp and other Biomass fuels for charcoal.
STOP DRILLING IN THE ANWR. Force Oil Companies to RESTORE IMPACTED AREAS.
PUT THE MONEY BACK IN THE PEOPLE'S HANDS
Freeze all Transportation Fuels and Utility prices for ten years. Extendable if deemed so by the People.
END COMPOUND INTREST RATES on loans,mortgages and small business loans.
FORGIVE ALL DEBTS. End Property Tax on ALL personal homes.
CUT DEFENSE 60%,then fund FULL HEALTHCARE and ENVIRONMENTAL CLEANUP
Non Deductable/Refundable 90% TAX The WEALTHIEST PEOPLE and BUSINESSES.
Make SOCIAL SECURITY ALWAYS FUNDED
GIVE food stamps to all Low Imcome Families.
RESTORE 'NATION within NATION STATUS' TO NATIVE PEOPLES AND LANDS. RESPECT ALL LAND TREATIES.
RESTORE POWER TO THE PEOPLE
PARDON ALL VICTIMLESS,NON-VIOLENT OFFENDERS.
PARDON ALL POLITICAL PRISONERS
LEGALIZE HEMP.
MAKE NATURAL DRUGS LEGAL, MAKE MANUFACTURED DRUGS PERSCRIPTIONABLE.
BILL of RIGHTS PROTECTION TO INCLUDE MARANDA RIGHTS
END WARRANTLESS SEARCHES,DOMESTIC SPYING ON CITIZENS
GUARANTEE THAT PEOPLE CAN DO WITH THEIR BODIES WHATEVER THEY DEEM RIGHT
ALL WORKER'S RIGHTS WOULD BE PROTECTED.
DIS-ALLOW ANY PERSON THAT THINKS USE OF FORCE AND WARFARE ARE 'good ideas' FROM HOLDING POSITIONS OF POWER

ARREST THE FORMER EXECUTIVE BRANCH FOR CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY

DRAFT JEFFREY7 for PREZ; it's the only vote that counts!!!
www.myspace.com/jeffrey1776

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As far as I'm concerned,
Posted by: hurricane hugo on Jul 30, 2008 10:52 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
McCain sold his war hero chips to Charles Keating years ago.
If he still had any after that, his refusal to even show up for the new GI Bill vote a couple of months ago should've cashed in the remainder.
Fuck him.

jdfu!

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WARNING to AlterNet visitors: Carbon-based is a rightwing Republican troll
Posted by: HughScott on Jul 30, 2008 12:15 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As an example of Carbon-based's divisive and scurrilous AlterNet postings, he made the following response to my comment above titled, "Unfit McCain is no hero."

"Hugh E. Scott, Vietnam veteran??????"

THAT is a joke - it explain your warped twisted views... how many innocent people did you kill - and are you proud for murdering women and children?


Then several comments later on this thread, Carbon-based wrote:

“Yet don't be fooled, his words say. Behind my gentle demeanor lies a God-like wrath that will be inflicted surely and swiftly on evildoers who threaten our nation.” This is EXACTLY what a commander in chief needs to be!

According to Carbon-based, it was wrong to kill Vietnamese but President McCain slaughtering "evildoers" (Muslims) will be perfectly OK.

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» Hugh Scott - the "war hero" Posted by: carbon-based
NEITHER candidate is a hero by any measure
Posted by: Farasien on Jul 30, 2008 12:58 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree with the sentiment that McCain is no hero- hell, he got captured (how is that heroic?) he squealed to his captors (heroic?) and lived through the ordeal because he was the kid of a Navy admiral (once again... heroic? please tell me how!). He's a neocon psychopath who would suck King Dipshit Junior's dick on the white house steps in front of the Faux news cameras if he was asked to, has back-tracked on every promise (even BEFORE he got 'elected' to the presidency... I guess he's just practicing for later!) he made, has gone back and screwed those in the military (again) and has a temper about the same as your average Hamptons-dwelling 5 year-old Ritilin-addled yuppie brat. I think we all get it. However, it really pains me to see the author sucking up to Obama as if he were the next savior of the earth. Obama is also an elitist scumbag who covers it with a false veneer of 'ordinary joe'-ism that should be obvious to anyone who dares to use what remains of their common sense and question what they see on TV. The author of the article above asks us to watch his campaign speeches and commercials with the idea of a savior-type in mind (for 'comparison's sake', of course...), but doesn't bother to point out that these appearences are VERY SPECIFICALLY SCRIPTED to create this image. Let's not forget his vote on FISA, his very lucrative, quiet sponsorships from health care and insurance companies, his ever-shrinking support for withdrawing from TWO unwinnable wars and his constantly whoring himself out to bankers and wall street insiders. Obama is lying to us all, and like McInsane, has already gone back on promises. Obama is no better than McCane, and by extension, no better than the Shrub. If you vote for him, you damn well might as well write bu$h Jr. in on your ballot.

Obama is yet another insider in a long line of political insiders. He was bought and paid for a long time ago, and he, like all the other assholes currently 'serving' in government, will only do what their owners tell them to. For us, its the same shit- pump and dump, sell to the highest bidder and leave office for a 7+ figure 'retirement' lobbying for the same bastards. Happy election day...

Think before you vote this coming November. If you vote for the lesser of 2 evils, you're still voting FOR evil, and you'll damn well get what you ask for.

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An example of McCain's dishonorable POW behavior
Posted by: HughScott on Jul 30, 2008 4:49 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The following text was extracted from my new nonprofit Web site:
www.UnfitMcCain.com

Following McCain's capture in 1967, in return for medical treatment at a civilian hospital, a privilege never granted to other injured POWs, he reportedly told NVA interrogators the name of his aircraft carrier, how many Navy pilots had been lost, the number of planes in his flight formation, tactics used during bomb runs and the location of rescue ships in the Tonkin Gulf.

Because of the revelations which McCain repeated in propaganda radio broadcasts, the North Vietnamese contemptuously nicknamed him “Songbird.”

During his six-week hospital stay and for months afterwards, McCain continued to cooperate with NVA interrogators. He made more radio broadcasts for the enemy and met with foreign dignitaries, enjoying hot tea, coffee and cigarettes in posh settings while back at the Hanoi Hilton and other internment camps, his fellow POWs struggled to stay alive.

In one case, while meeting with Cuban journalist Fernando Barral, McCain voluntarily spoke in Spanish, even though he was obligated as an American POW to be evasive during their conversation.

The Barral interview took place in 1970, more than two years after McCain’s capture. Cuban diplomats in Hanoi told Barral to say he was a Spanish psychologist, even though he hadn't lived in Spain since he was 11.

The interview lasted between 45 minutes and an hour, according to Barral. He said the meeting took place at the offices of Hanoi's Committee for Foreign Cultural Relations where cookies, oranges, coffee and cigarettes were offered to McCain and accepted.

Barral said he conducted a cursory medical examination and found that McCain had difficulty rotating his arms. McCain told him that he had not been subjected to "physical or moral violence."
After dispensing with the pro forma name, rank and serial number, the men talked in Spanish about McCain's family, his aspirations and the downing of his plane. Quoting Barral, "McCain lamented, 'If I hadn't been shot down, I would have become an admiral at a younger age than my father.'"

Although McCain claimed he didn’t discuss military matters with Barral, the Hanoi Hilton's U.S. commander, SRO Jeremiah Denton, later issued an order forbidding POWs to be interviewed by visitors. Said McCain on page 305 of his 1999 autobiography, Faith of My Fathers (hardcopy edition), “[Denton's] decision was a sound one, even though it deprived me of further opportunities to demonstrate my psychic equilibrium… not to mention the [loss of] extra cigarettes and coffee."

Also in Faith of My Fathers, while admitting to accepting special favors from the enemy, such as coffee and cigarettes, a blatant violation of the POW Code of Conduct, McCain omitted the fact he had conversed with Barral in Spanish, another Code violation.


If you agree that McCain acted dishonorably as a POW, please tell your friends and family about UnfitMcCain.com.

Hugh E. Scott, Vietnam veteran, lifelong registered Republican and former McCain supporter

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» Surprise! Posted by: carbon-based
» Yes Hugh - Give it up... Posted by: carbon-based
» carbon based Posted by: donl51
A crooked kind of heroism
Posted by: PaulK on Jul 30, 2008 7:01 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
OK, there were four other senators caught propping up that particular banking crook besides Senator McCain. (see Keating 5 in Wikipedia) McCain wasn't the only player in on that particular bank job, which means everybody in Congress does it, which means no harm no foul, right? A clearly crooked action by a United States senator is not actually a crooked action, so to speak.

I understand McCain being a vet, but he really kind of spent that "hero" image when he became clearly known as a corrupt official.

Let's see for comparison, could Spiro Agnew be much of a hero to anyone after pleading guilty in court to taking a common bribe? Could Buddy Cianci be much of a hero after getting 64 months in jail under the John Gotti racketeering conspiracy law?

"Say it ain't so, Joe!" is a boy's lament when his baseball hero admitted to fixing the World Series by making errors and striking out. (In fairness to Shoeless Joe Jackson, he hit extremely well and made no errors in the World Series in question, but the dumb guy got pressured into signing an admission of guilt and got thrown out of baseball.) In more modern times, Pete Rose was a baseball hero who admitted betting on his own baseball games.

Corruption is particularly damning in politicians because we know they'll probably be corrupt again. McCain has this aura of his campaign being run by industry lobbyists, and of him voting in lockstep with W. Bush for several years. He's an older guy who might be serviceable on a corporation's board of directors.

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REAL WAR HEROES: A special response to Carbon-based who says I never was an Air Force pilot
Posted by: HughScott on Jul 31, 2008 9:15 PM   
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In my 2004 book, George Dub-ya Bush, THE PHONY FIGHTER PILOT, I wrote about my experiences as a SAC KC135 pilot during the Vietnam War. Here's an example.

There’s another Vietnam War hero I want to tell you about -— Robert Norlan Daughtery, a college chum of mine.

One night in 1965, I ran into him on Okinawa at the Kadena Officer’s Club. A captain like me, Bob had been an upperclassman in my Air Force ROTC outfit at Texas A&M, Squadron 9. He was a junior then, class of ’55. I was one year behind.

Back in the 1950s, A&M was an all-male land grant college with a Corps of Cadets similar to West Point and the Citadel except we wore old-fashioned WWI Army uniforms (new, of course), with Sam Browns, riding pants and leather boots for seniors. Verbal hazing was permitted to instill military discipline and it worked pretty well. During WWII, the Fighting Aggie Corps of Cadets produced more commissioned officers than West Point and the Naval Academy combined and they all served valiantly. Robert Norlan Daughtery was such a man.

When I saw him at Kadena, he was headed for Takhli, Thailand, to fly "Thuds." I had just returned from another tour there. Bob asked me what the bad part was like. So I told him.

F105s got the nickname from the sound enemy antiaircraft rounds made hitting their fuselages. Thud drivers spent more time below the treetops in North Vietnam than they did going to and from Thailand. If a 105 pilot survived 100 combat sorties into Ho Chi Minh territory, he would get to go home—back to the world. A lot didn’t.

I heard one guy at Takhli say, “The life expectancy of a Thud jock is shorter than a fruit fly,” and he wasn’t kidding.

In the mess hall before their predawn flights, they joked about having the “Fighter Pilot’s Breakfast”―a cup of coffee, cigarette and a puke. A half-hour later, more than one Thud driver dressed in flight gear threw up partially digested eggs and bacon on the ramp by his plane. Fear did that to men back then, the bravest of the brave. But it didn’t stop them from flying their missions.

At first light, my crew and I would launch with four F105s, a loose five-ship gaggle. They were an awesome sight, those mighty warplanes―bobbing and weaving gently in the sky around us―sleek single-engine jets with mottled brown-and-green camouflaged skin, stubby wings and six 750-pound iron bombs hanging from their bellies, destined for Bad Guy Land.

Typically, tankers crews topped off Thud jocks as high as their gross weight permitted to avoid Communist antiaircraft fire in Laos. After the refueling, we orbited above 20,000 feet and waited for the thirsty birds to return for more gas before heading back to Takhli.

During the holding pattern, I chewed on an unlit cigar and listened to the action live on a tactical radio frequency, sometimes hearing “May Day!” from a friendly going down and wishing I hadn’t.

Far too often, we brought back three Thuds instead of four, sometimes just two. Each time I prayed silently the missing pilots got down alive and would be rescued. Too many weren’t.

There were a few times when a F105 coming off its target was so short of gas the pilot couldn’t make it to Laos, much less Thailand. So we violated mission rules, went after him into North Vietnam, made a head-on rendezvous and brought the grateful jock back home.

I was never more proud being a tanker pilot, flying into North Vietnam, breaking regs and taking risks to save a fellow American’s ass. It was a patriotic high President Bush could never imagine―not in his wildest dreams.


The comment box won't allow all story. So I'll simply say that Norlan got shot down on his 15th mission and spent the next eight years as a POW.

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If Obama is a hero, why doesn't he act with courage?
Posted by: Livemike on Aug 1, 2008 3:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When McCain says something idiotic like Iran is as big a threat as the Soviet Union was, why does Obama rush to abase himself before the Geriatric One's stupidity? When he has the opportunity to actually defend the people who will elect him (maybe) why doesn't he take it? All it would take is opposing immunity for the telecoms. He could even paint his opponents as being "soft on crime" which they are. And of pandering to special interests that bought favours with campaign donations, as they do. Obama is the ultimate in wishy-washy. Hell he's flip-flopped so often McCain looks like the consistent candidate (if you don't look too closely).

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Tiffany & Co jewelry
Posted by: tiffanyfashion on Aug 6, 2008 5:29 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In 1887 Tiffany & Co. acquired some of the French crown jewels, an important ... Tiffany & Co Jewelry Store in New York City - Shopping Guide to Tiffany.

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