COMMENTS: 61
John McCain -- 61 Flip-Flops and Counting
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National Security Policy
1. McCain thought Bush's warrantless wiretap program circumvented the law; now he believes the opposite.
2. McCain insisted that everyone, even "terrible killers," "the worst kind of scum of humanity," and detainees at Guantanamo Bay, "deserve to have some adjudication of their cases," even if that means "releasing some of them." McCain now believes the opposite.
3. He opposed indefinite detention of terrorist suspects. When the Supreme Court reached the same conclusion, he called it "one of the worst decisions in the history of this country."
4. In February, McCain reversed course on prohibiting waterboarding.
5. McCain favored closing the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay before he was against it.
6. When Barack Obama talked about going after terrorists in Pakistani mountains with Predators, McCain criticized him for it. He's since come to the opposite conclusion.
Foreign Policy
7. McCain was for kicking Russia out of the G8 before he was against it.
8. McCain supported moving "toward normalization of relations" with Cuba. Now he believes the opposite.
9. McCain believed the United States should engage in diplomacy with Hamas. Now he believes the opposite.
10. McCain believed the United States should engage in diplomacy with Syria. Now he believes the opposite.
11. McCain is both for and against a "rogue state rollback" as a focus of his foreign policy vision.
12. McCain used to champion the Law of the Sea convention, even volunteering to testify on the treaty's behalf before a Senate committee. Now he opposes it.
13. McCain was against divestment from South Africa before he was for it.
Military Policy
14. McCain recently claimed that he was the "greatest critic" of Rumsfeld's failed Iraq policy. In December 2003, McCain praised the same strategy as "a mission accomplished." In March 2004, he said, "I'm confident we're on the right course." In December 2005, he said, "Overall, I think a year from now, we will have made a fair amount of progress if we stay the course."
15. McCain has changed his mind about a long-term U.S. military presence in Iraq on multiple occasions, concluding, on multiple occasions, that a Korea-like presence is both a good idea and a bad idea.
16. McCain said before the war in Iraq, "We will win this conflict. We will win it easily." Four years later, McCain said he knew all along that the war in Iraq war was "probably going to be long and hard and tough."
17. McCain has repeatedly said it's a dangerous mistake to tell the "enemy" when U.S. troops would be out of Iraq. In May, McCain announced that most American troops would be home from Iraq by 2013.
18. McCain was against expanding the GI Bill before he was for it.
Domestic Policy
19. McCain defended "privatizing" Social Security. Now he says he's against privatization (though he actually still supports it.)
20. McCain wanted to change the Republican Party platform to protect abortion rights in cases of rape and incest. Now he doesn't.
21. McCain supported storing spent nuclear fuel at Yucca Mountain in Nevada. Now he believes the opposite.
22. He argued that the NRA should not have a role in the Republican Party's policy making. Now he believes the opposite.
23. In 1998, he championed raising cigarette taxes to fund programs to cut underage smoking, insisting that it would prevent illnesses and provide resources for public health programs. Now, McCain opposes a $0.61-per-pack tax increase, won't commit to supporting a regulation bill he's co-sponsoring, and has hired Philip Morris' former lobbyist as his senior campaign adviser.
24. McCain is both for and against earmarks for Arizona.
25. McCain's first mortgage plan was premised on the notion that homeowners facing foreclosure shouldn't be "rewarded" for acting "irresponsibly." His second mortgage plan took largely the opposite position.
26. McCain went from saying gay marriage should be allowed, to saying gay marriage shouldn't be allowed.
27. McCain opposed a holiday to honor Martin Luther King Jr. before he supported it.
28. McCain was anti-ethanol. Now he's pro-ethanol.
29. McCain was both for and against state promotion of the Confederate flag.
30. In 2005, McCain endorsed intelligent design creationism, a year later he said the opposite, and a few months after that, he was both for and against creationism at the same time.
Economic Policy
31. McCain was against Bush's tax cuts for the very wealthy before he was for them.
32. John McCain initially argued that economics is not an area of expertise for him, saying, "I'm going to be honest: I know a lot less about economics than I do about military and foreign policy issues; I still need to be educated," and "The issue of economics is not something I've understood as well as I should." He now falsely denies ever having made these remarks and insists that he has a "very strong" understanding of economics.
33. McCain vowed, if elected, to balance the federal budget by the end of his first term. Soon after, he decided he would no longer even try to reach that goal. And soon after that, McCain abandoned his second position and went back to his first.
34. McCain said in 2005 that he opposed the tax cuts because they were "too tilted to the wealthy." By 2007, he denied ever having said this, and falsely argued that he opposed the cuts because of increased government spending.
35. McCain thought the estate tax was perfectly fair. Now he believes the opposite.
36. McCain pledged in February 2008 that he would not, under any circumstances, raise taxes. Specifically, McCain was asked if he is a "'read my lips' candidate, no new taxes, no matter what?" referring to George H.W. Bush's 1988 pledge. "No new taxes," McCain responded. Two weeks later, McCain said, "I'm not making a 'read my lips' statement, in that I will not raise taxes."
37. McCain has changed his entire economic worldview on multiple occasions.
38. McCain believes Americans are both better and worse off economically than they were before Bush took office.
Energy Policy
39. McCain supported the moratorium on coastal drilling; now he's against it.
40. McCain recently announced his strong opposition to a windfall tax on oil company profits. Three weeks earlier, he was perfectly comfortable with the idea.
41. McCain endorsed a cap-and-trade policy with a mandatory emissions cap. In mid-June, McCain announced he wants the caps to be voluntary.
42. McCain explained his belief that a temporary suspension of the federal gas tax would provide an immediate economic stimulus. Shortly thereafter, he argued the exact opposite.
43. McCain supported the Lieberman/Warner legislation to combat global warming. Now he doesn't.
Immigration Policy
44. McCain was a co-sponsor of the DREAM Act, which would grant legal status to illegal immigrants' kids who graduate from high school. Now he's against it.
45. On immigration policy in general, McCain announced in February 2008 that he would vote against his own bill.
46. In April, McCain promised voters that he would secure the borders "before proceeding to other reform measures." Two months later, he abandoned his public pledge, pretended that he'd never made the promise in the first place, and vowed that a comprehensive immigration reform policy has always been, and would always be, his "top priority."
Judicial Policy and the Rule of Law
47. McCain said he would "not impose a litmus test on any nominee." He used to promise the opposite.
48. McCain believes the telecoms should be forced to explain their role in the administration's warrantless surveillance program as a condition for retroactive immunity. He used to believe the opposite.
49. McCain went from saying he would not support repeal of Roe v. Wade to saying the exact opposite.
Campaign, Ethics, and Lobbying Reform
50. McCain supported his own lobbying-reform legislation from 1997. Now he doesn't.
51. In 2006, McCain sponsored legislation to require grassroots lobbying coalitions to reveal their financial donors. In 2007, after receiving "feedback" on the proposal, McCain told far-right activist groups that he opposes his own measure.
52. McCain supported a campaign-finance bill, which bore his name, on strengthening the public-financing system. In June 2007, he abandoned his own legislation.
Politics and Associations
53. McCain wanted political support from radical televangelist John Hagee. Now he doesn't.
54. McCain wanted political support from radical televangelist Rod Parsley. Now he doesn't.
55. McCain says he considered and did not consider joining John Kerry's Democratic ticket in 2004.
56. McCain is both for and against attacking Barack Obama over his former pastor at his former church.
57. McCain criticized TV preacher Jerry Falwell as "an agent of intolerance" in 2002, but then decided to cozy up to the man who said Americans "deserved" the 9/11 attacks.
58. In 2000, McCain accused Texas businessmen Sam and Charles Wyly of being corrupt, spending "dirty money" to help finance Bush's presidential campaign. McCain not only filed a complaint against the Wylys for allegedly violating campaign finance law, he also lashed out at them publicly. In April, McCain reached out to the Wylys for support.
59. McCain was against presidential candidates campaigning at Bob Jones University before he was for it.
60. McCain decided in 2000 that he didn't want anything to do with former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, believing he "would taint the image of the 'Straight Talk Express.'" Kissinger is now the honorary co-chair for his presidential campaign in New York.
61. McCain believed powerful right-wing activist/lobbyist Grover Norquist was "corrupt, a shill for dictators, and (with just a dose of sarcasm) Jack Abramoff's gay lover." McCain now considers Norquist a key political ally.
And while I realize there are some who believe these constant flip-flops are irrelevant, I respectfully disagree.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: Richard House on Jul 10, 2008 3:01 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The first of Benen’s examples of McCain’s flip-flops coincides exactly with Obama’s u-turn on supporting Congress’s decision to give immunity to the telephone companies involved in the Bush administration's controversial wiretap program. Obama has also flip-flopped on Iraq, campaign finance, gun control, and free trade (NAFTA). The last one will affect ordinary Americans the most while enriching the corporations for another four years (this ties in with his u-turn on campaign finance).
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Posted by: dannrusso on Jul 10, 2008 4:19 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
she turns to me and says "he's old and addled and confused"
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» RE: so my I'm reading to this my wife
Posted by: Zeugitai
» So, you are saying --
Posted by: ChicagoPaul
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Posted by: Israel on Jul 10, 2008 4:54 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: carbon-based on Jul 10, 2008 4:59 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
McCain is looking like the rock solid candidate now!
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» I remember...
Posted by: Bbear41
» RE: I remember...
Posted by: carbon-based
» Nixon's "plan"?
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: Nixon's "plan"?
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: Nixon's "plan"?
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: I remember...
Posted by: ChicagoPaul
» Where is all that noise coming from!
Posted by: carbon-based
» Truth Hurts (Sometimes)
Posted by: ChicagoPaul
» RE: Pot calling the kettle.......
Posted by: pizzmoe
» RE: Pot calling the kettle.......
Posted by: xmvince
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Posted by: solrev on Jul 10, 2008 5:35 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Col. Jackleg on Jul 10, 2008 6:06 AM
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Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 10, 2008 6:34 AM
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» RE: What's the point in this article when Obama's just the same ?!?!?
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: What's the point in this article when Obama's just the same ?!?!?
Posted by: hankhawk
» Voting for Nader? "Moral?"
Posted by: ChicagoPaul
» Your idiotic electoral system is the problem.
Posted by: wisegalah
» RE: Your idiotic electoral system is the problem.
Posted by: ChicagoPaul
» RE: Your idiotic electoral system is the problem.
Posted by: wisegalah
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Posted by: Last Chance on Jul 10, 2008 6:57 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: thekidde on Jul 10, 2008 7:04 AM
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» GOD IS ALREADY PUNISHING AMERICA TO ETERNAL DAMNATION for generating too many rightwing fundie
Posted by: maxpayne
» How about a psychiatric assessment in place of primaries?
Posted by: wisegalah
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Posted by: droscify on Jul 10, 2008 7:27 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
PS: I don't remember y'all being so hard on Kerry even though he was a complete centrist blowhard. The differences were stark back then. Guess what: They still are!!! Let's not spite any faces this year satisfying as it may be at first.
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» RE: Yet again...
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Yet again...
Posted by: CatDad
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jul 10, 2008 7:37 AM
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Posted by: Walks-in-Storms on Jul 10, 2008 8:21 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That, incidentally, used to be evidence of a mind functioning well. On the contrary, one who could not or would not change his mind was known as a fanatic or a bigot.
I'm older, of course, and times have changed. One thing hasn't changed: I won't vote for - or be associated with - anyone who won't "flip-flop."
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Posted by: willymack on Jul 10, 2008 8:28 AM
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Posted by: JohnJlws on Jul 10, 2008 8:36 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One can argue until they’re blue things like “well, the Supreme Court decided it’s okay for the state to murder rapists, so what difference does Obama’s opinion make,” but all of the arguments are lost as the raging left wages a battle to promote a “viable third party candidate;” an oxymoron if there ever was one.
Obama knows a lot of things. He knows, for instance, most of us on the left understand that the left cannot, and never has, elected a president; the middle always does. He knows the answer to questions like is Obama or McCain more likely to appoint Supreme Court justices who will make rulings more aligned with liberal philosophy? This is the critical decision the next president will have. He will present at least two Supreme Court justices as at least two current sitting justices were appointed by more liberal presidents and lean to more liberal opinions and will either retire or die in the coming president’s term.
These appointments are generational in nature as their decisions have ramifications that dramatically impact the future and currently the court is more or less balanced (leans conservative).
Obama knows, too, like those of us with a brain in our head, he isn’t fighting against McCain. Rather Obama is fighting against how he will be defined. If he’s defined as a normal liberal whack job whose “so far left he’s left America,” as many appear to want to define him even those who allegedly want “change” and want to “get rid of Bush,” then McCain and his neocons will get the opportunity for a third Bush term and an opportunity to overturn little inconsequential things like Roe v. Wade. If, on the other hand, Obama can tack to the center and get elected, then we can once again have a voice and perhaps bring compassion back into the natural conservatism that most of us applaud as none of us stand up and say “let’s raise taxes so we can waste tons of money on brash, illegal wars, like Iran.” Or, as Bush says “let’s not raise taxes. Our kids and their kids can pay for our stupidity.”
The choice is very clear in this election and it’s not even close to the idiocy of “the lesser of two evils” and it’s not cutesy moronic blogosphere comparisons like “McCain = Obama.” This thing is terribly, terribly important and those who cannot see the difference and cannot understand how people get elected and cannot understand that reality sometimes dictate we get in bed with folks that make us vomit need to sit on the sidelines and quietly watch because their big threats of “voting for McCain” and their idle ramblings aren’t helping us fix this dramatically broken earth, even if the fix that is being offered is far from the perfect world each of us would easily create given even a tenth the opportunity any one of these guys has; then, we’d have the perfect world and the perfect candidate.
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» exactly
Posted by: droscify
» RE: THE perfect candidate = THE perfect world = me (or you)
Posted by: Zeugitai
» I must respectfull disagree
Posted by: JohnJlws
» does anyone dare say it?
Posted by: Spot
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Posted by: ChicagoPaul on Jul 10, 2008 9:21 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've been watching Lou Dobbs for years now trying to figure out the what, who, where, and why of the Independent 'movement." On the face of it, "declaring" your independence sounds admirable - something our ForeParents did years ago: brave, new, exciting, even dangerous.
I see Barney Franks and Joe Lieberman with the Independent label. Throw in Ross Perot and John Anderson (now there's a Flash from the Past, huh?). How about the billionaire mayor of New York?
What do they have in common with Lou Dobbs? Precious little, except a label.
In other words, the label Independent is meaningless, and "viable" ain't gonna happen - at least not in this lifetime.
THEREFORE, you learn to play in the sandbox, like all the other little kids.
Sounds like selling out, you say? Naw, not at all, as long as you keep your eye on the prize.
I believe that Barack Obama has his eye firmly fixed on "the prize." This is something, obviously, that the Rev. Jesse Jackson isn't doing, unfortunately. Neither has Rev. Wright. Or President Clinton, apparently. (Just to name a few who should know better.)
And neither do those who continue to whine about finding a "viable, Independent Third Party Candidate." Get in the sandbox like the rest of us...toss a little sand about...build your sandcastles...and keep your eye on the prize.
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Posted by: HughScott on Jul 10, 2008 9:34 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Although bound by the Code of Conduct for POWs that states American prisoners shall not accept "special favors" from the enemy, McCain did exactly by smoking cigarettes offered to him by his captors.
Food is different; a POW is obligated to eat all he can, when he can, and then share the information with fellow POWs so his rations can be divided among the other men based on the estimated calories consumed. This was especially important during WWII to fight starvation in German and Japanese internment camps. Conversely, cigarettes have no food value and are considered enemy gifts with a price tag attached―such as revealing classified information.
When McCain took that first puff, his captors knew instantly he had a weakness for nicotine that could make him more vulnerable to disclosing military secrets during interrogations, which he did.
In return for medical treatment at a civilian hospital, a privilege never granted to other injured POWs, McCain told NVA interrogators the name of his aircraft carrier, how many Navy pilots had been lost, the number of planes in his flight formation, tactics used during bomb runs and the location of rescue ships in the Tonkin Gulf. Because of those revelations, the North Vietnamese contemptuously nicknamed him the "Songbird."
After his six-week stay in the hospital, McCain continued to cooperate with the North Vietnamese. He made radio broadcasts for the enemy and met with foreign dignitaries, including a Cuban intelligence officer. He was also interviewed by two NVA generals -- one of them Vietnam’s great national hero, Vo Nguyen Giap.
Photographs of the meetings show McCain in a comfortable setting, enjoying hot tea with his captors (another no-no) while back at the Hanoi Hilton, other POWs were fighting to stay alive.
On June 4, 1969, a U.S. wire service story headlined, “PW Songbird Is Pilot Son of Admiral,” described one of McCain’s radio recordings: “Hanoi has aired a broadcast in which the pilot son of the United States commander in the Pacific, Adm. John McCain, purportedly admits to having bombed civilian targets in North Vietnam and praises medical treatment he has received since being taken prisoner.”
True or not about the specific details of his confessions, McCain admitted in writing that he revealed “information about my ship and squadron.”
In the same paragraph, he claimed, “The information was of no real use to the Vietnamese.”
Well, that’s not what retired Army Colonel Earl Hopper believes.
A veteran of World War II, Korea and Vietnam, he contends the information McCain disclosed was used by North Vietnam to fine-tune their air defense system.
Hopper’s son, Air Force Lt. Colonel Earl Pearson Hopper, was shot down over North Vietnam and later declared “Missing in Action.” As a result of his loss, the elder Hopper co-founded the National League of Families, an organization devoted to the return of Vietnam War POWs.
There are numerous Vietnam veterans, including fellow POWs, who think McCain crossed the line during his NVA interrogations and cooperated more than he should have. Many others believe McCain betrayed the families of American servicemen missing in Southeast Asia by abruptly ending the 1992 Senate investigation and sealing their records.
Assuming those perceptions are correct, they explain why McCain has flip-flopped this year on many important matters, such as torture, Bush tax cuts, etc. Clearly his core values are conflicted. Otherwise, he is not being true to himself and the American people.
.
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» RE: Why John McBush flip-flops
Posted by: mberg
» Check McCain's autobiography
Posted by: HughScott
» RE: Check McCain's autobiography
Posted by: jules_siegel
» RE: Check McCain's autobiography
Posted by: Hope2012
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Posted by: tommy57 on Jul 10, 2008 9:38 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Please Someone
Posted by: Wayne A Schneider
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Posted by: Romans1 on Jul 10, 2008 12:39 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Are you guys even paying attention?
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» RE: Obama's Epiphany
Posted by: ChicagoPaul
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Posted by: Romans1 on Jul 10, 2008 12:46 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
July 2, 2008
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» RE: Great quote from the Wall Street Journal
Posted by: ChicagoPaul
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Posted by: HildyG on Jul 10, 2008 2:37 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In a post at my blog, I note that we can choose a different word for flip-flopper: Mature, thinking adult. Someone who learns, and then applies what he learns to life, and yes, changes his mind.
That's someone I want to lead my country. A mature, thinking adult. A grown-up.
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» A mature thinking adult? McCain?
Posted by: wisegalah
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Posted by: sofla100 on Jul 10, 2008 6:31 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One is black, one is white.
One is young, one is old.
One has some charisma, the other is a "fuddy-dud."
So apparently, the above criteria are what the American People will have to use in order to decide the next President. It won't be any separate or distinct polices that each men might have, because they now have virtually the same policies.
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Posted by: ImSwiss on Jul 11, 2008 8:23 AM
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your gut feeling and guess.
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Posted by: GreyFoxThree on Jul 11, 2008 11:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
JT
Ultimate Anonymity
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Posted by: eager-to-learn on Jul 11, 2008 2:30 PM
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Posted by: paulvee on Jul 12, 2008 6:30 AM
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In 2000, they were one of the reasons that Al Gore lost. They undermined Kerry, whom I detest, but voted for, in 2004. And now they are jumping all over Obama. Mainly because their lives have no meaning unless they rebel against something. Get a shrink, fools.
If you think there is no difference, imagine what would NOT have happened under Gore, instead of Bush. No Iraq war. No destruction of the Constitution. No pullout from Kyoto. The list goes on for a long time.
He is NOT the lesser of two evils. He is a moderate Democrat who would do a fine job with the load of crap that the next president will inherit.
Go vote for Nader if you really need attention.
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Posted by: xmvince on Jul 15, 2008 12:33 PM
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Posted by: tap17x on Jul 27, 2008 2:16 PM
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Posted by: Richard House on Jul 10, 2008 3:01 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The first of Benen’s examples of McCain’s flip-flops coincides exactly with Obama’s u-turn on supporting Congress’s decision to give immunity to the telephone companies involved in the Bush administration's controversial wiretap program. Obama has also flip-flopped on Iraq, campaign finance, gun control, and free trade (NAFTA). The last one will affect ordinary Americans the most while enriching the corporations for another four years (this ties in with his u-turn on campaign finance).
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Posted by: dannrusso on Jul 10, 2008 4:19 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
she turns to me and says "he's old and addled and confused"
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» RE: so my I'm reading to this my wife
Posted by: Zeugitai
» So, you are saying --
Posted by: ChicagoPaul
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Posted by: Israel on Jul 10, 2008 4:54 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: carbon-based on Jul 10, 2008 4:59 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
McCain is looking like the rock solid candidate now!
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» I remember...
Posted by: Bbear41
» RE: I remember...
Posted by: carbon-based
» Nixon's "plan"?
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: Nixon's "plan"?
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: Nixon's "plan"?
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: I remember...
Posted by: ChicagoPaul
» Where is all that noise coming from!
Posted by: carbon-based
» Truth Hurts (Sometimes)
Posted by: ChicagoPaul
» RE: Pot calling the kettle.......
Posted by: pizzmoe
» RE: Pot calling the kettle.......
Posted by: xmvince
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Posted by: solrev on Jul 10, 2008 5:35 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Col. Jackleg on Jul 10, 2008 6:06 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 10, 2008 6:34 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: What's the point in this article when Obama's just the same ?!?!?
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: What's the point in this article when Obama's just the same ?!?!?
Posted by: hankhawk
» Voting for Nader? "Moral?"
Posted by: ChicagoPaul
» Your idiotic electoral system is the problem.
Posted by: wisegalah
» RE: Your idiotic electoral system is the problem.
Posted by: ChicagoPaul
» RE: Your idiotic electoral system is the problem.
Posted by: wisegalah
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Posted by: Last Chance on Jul 10, 2008 6:57 AM
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Posted by: thekidde on Jul 10, 2008 7:04 AM
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» GOD IS ALREADY PUNISHING AMERICA TO ETERNAL DAMNATION for generating too many rightwing fundie
Posted by: maxpayne
» How about a psychiatric assessment in place of primaries?
Posted by: wisegalah
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Posted by: droscify on Jul 10, 2008 7:27 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
PS: I don't remember y'all being so hard on Kerry even though he was a complete centrist blowhard. The differences were stark back then. Guess what: They still are!!! Let's not spite any faces this year satisfying as it may be at first.
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» RE: Yet again...
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Yet again...
Posted by: CatDad
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jul 10, 2008 7:37 AM
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Posted by: Walks-in-Storms on Jul 10, 2008 8:21 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That, incidentally, used to be evidence of a mind functioning well. On the contrary, one who could not or would not change his mind was known as a fanatic or a bigot.
I'm older, of course, and times have changed. One thing hasn't changed: I won't vote for - or be associated with - anyone who won't "flip-flop."
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Posted by: willymack on Jul 10, 2008 8:28 AM
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Posted by: JohnJlws on Jul 10, 2008 8:36 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One can argue until they’re blue things like “well, the Supreme Court decided it’s okay for the state to murder rapists, so what difference does Obama’s opinion make,” but all of the arguments are lost as the raging left wages a battle to promote a “viable third party candidate;” an oxymoron if there ever was one.
Obama knows a lot of things. He knows, for instance, most of us on the left understand that the left cannot, and never has, elected a president; the middle always does. He knows the answer to questions like is Obama or McCain more likely to appoint Supreme Court justices who will make rulings more aligned with liberal philosophy? This is the critical decision the next president will have. He will present at least two Supreme Court justices as at least two current sitting justices were appointed by more liberal presidents and lean to more liberal opinions and will either retire or die in the coming president’s term.
These appointments are generational in nature as their decisions have ramifications that dramatically impact the future and currently the court is more or less balanced (leans conservative).
Obama knows, too, like those of us with a brain in our head, he isn’t fighting against McCain. Rather Obama is fighting against how he will be defined. If he’s defined as a normal liberal whack job whose “so far left he’s left America,” as many appear to want to define him even those who allegedly want “change” and want to “get rid of Bush,” then McCain and his neocons will get the opportunity for a third Bush term and an opportunity to overturn little inconsequential things like Roe v. Wade. If, on the other hand, Obama can tack to the center and get elected, then we can once again have a voice and perhaps bring compassion back into the natural conservatism that most of us applaud as none of us stand up and say “let’s raise taxes so we can waste tons of money on brash, illegal wars, like Iran.” Or, as Bush says “let’s not raise taxes. Our kids and their kids can pay for our stupidity.”
The choice is very clear in this election and it’s not even close to the idiocy of “the lesser of two evils” and it’s not cutesy moronic blogosphere comparisons like “McCain = Obama.” This thing is terribly, terribly important and those who cannot see the difference and cannot understand how people get elected and cannot understand that reality sometimes dictate we get in bed with folks that make us vomit need to sit on the sidelines and quietly watch because their big threats of “voting for McCain” and their idle ramblings aren’t helping us fix this dramatically broken earth, even if the fix that is being offered is far from the perfect world each of us would easily create given even a tenth the opportunity any one of these guys has; then, we’d have the perfect world and the perfect candidate.
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» exactly
Posted by: droscify
» RE: THE perfect candidate = THE perfect world = me (or you)
Posted by: Zeugitai
» I must respectfull disagree
Posted by: JohnJlws
» does anyone dare say it?
Posted by: Spot
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Posted by: ChicagoPaul on Jul 10, 2008 9:21 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've been watching Lou Dobbs for years now trying to figure out the what, who, where, and why of the Independent 'movement." On the face of it, "declaring" your independence sounds admirable - something our ForeParents did years ago: brave, new, exciting, even dangerous.
I see Barney Franks and Joe Lieberman with the Independent label. Throw in Ross Perot and John Anderson (now there's a Flash from the Past, huh?). How about the billionaire mayor of New York?
What do they have in common with Lou Dobbs? Precious little, except a label.
In other words, the label Independent is meaningless, and "viable" ain't gonna happen - at least not in this lifetime.
THEREFORE, you learn to play in the sandbox, like all the other little kids.
Sounds like selling out, you say? Naw, not at all, as long as you keep your eye on the prize.
I believe that Barack Obama has his eye firmly fixed on "the prize." This is something, obviously, that the Rev. Jesse Jackson isn't doing, unfortunately. Neither has Rev. Wright. Or President Clinton, apparently. (Just to name a few who should know better.)
And neither do those who continue to whine about finding a "viable, Independent Third Party Candidate." Get in the sandbox like the rest of us...toss a little sand about...build your sandcastles...and keep your eye on the prize.
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Posted by: HughScott on Jul 10, 2008 9:34 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Although bound by the Code of Conduct for POWs that states American prisoners shall not accept "special favors" from the enemy, McCain did exactly by smoking cigarettes offered to him by his captors.
Food is different; a POW is obligated to eat all he can, when he can, and then share the information with fellow POWs so his rations can be divided among the other men based on the estimated calories consumed. This was especially important during WWII to fight starvation in German and Japanese internment camps. Conversely, cigarettes have no food value and are considered enemy gifts with a price tag attached―such as revealing classified information.
When McCain took that first puff, his captors knew instantly he had a weakness for nicotine that could make him more vulnerable to disclosing military secrets during interrogations, which he did.
In return for medical treatment at a civilian hospital, a privilege never granted to other injured POWs, McCain told NVA interrogators the name of his aircraft carrier, how many Navy pilots had been lost, the number of planes in his flight formation, tactics used during bomb runs and the location of rescue ships in the Tonkin Gulf. Because of those revelations, the North Vietnamese contemptuously nicknamed him the "Songbird."
After his six-week stay in the hospital, McCain continued to cooperate with the North Vietnamese. He made radio broadcasts for the enemy and met with foreign dignitaries, including a Cuban intelligence officer. He was also interviewed by two NVA generals -- one of them Vietnam’s great national hero, Vo Nguyen Giap.
Photographs of the meetings show McCain in a comfortable setting, enjoying hot tea with his captors (another no-no) while back at the Hanoi Hilton, other POWs were fighting to stay alive.
On June 4, 1969, a U.S. wire service story headlined, “PW Songbird Is Pilot Son of Admiral,” described one of McCain’s radio recordings: “Hanoi has aired a broadcast in which the pilot son of the United States commander in the Pacific, Adm. John McCain, purportedly admits to having bombed civilian targets in North Vietnam and praises medical treatment he has received since being taken prisoner.”
True or not about the specific details of his confessions, McCain admitted in writing that he revealed “information about my ship and squadron.”
In the same paragraph, he claimed, “The information was of no real use to the Vietnamese.”
Well, that’s not what retired Army Colonel Earl Hopper believes.
A veteran of World War II, Korea and Vietnam, he contends the information McCain disclosed was used by North Vietnam to fine-tune their air defense system.
Hopper’s son, Air Force Lt. Colonel Earl Pearson Hopper, was shot down over North Vietnam and later declared “Missing in Action.” As a result of his loss, the elder Hopper co-founded the National League of Families, an organization devoted to the return of Vietnam War POWs.
There are numerous Vietnam veterans, including fellow POWs, who think McCain crossed the line during his NVA interrogations and cooperated more than he should have. Many others believe McCain betrayed the families of American servicemen missing in Southeast Asia by abruptly ending the 1992 Senate investigation and sealing their records.
Assuming those perceptions are correct, they explain why McCain has flip-flopped this year on many important matters, such as torture, Bush tax cuts, etc. Clearly his core values are conflicted. Otherwise, he is not being true to himself and the American people.
.
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» RE: Why John McBush flip-flops
Posted by: mberg
» Check McCain's autobiography
Posted by: HughScott
» RE: Check McCain's autobiography
Posted by: jules_siegel
» RE: Check McCain's autobiography
Posted by: Hope2012
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Posted by: tommy57 on Jul 10, 2008 9:38 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Please Someone
Posted by: Wayne A Schneider
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Posted by: Romans1 on Jul 10, 2008 12:39 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Are you guys even paying attention?
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» RE: Obama's Epiphany
Posted by: ChicagoPaul
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Posted by: Romans1 on Jul 10, 2008 12:46 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
July 2, 2008
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» RE: Great quote from the Wall Street Journal
Posted by: ChicagoPaul
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Posted by: HildyG on Jul 10, 2008 2:37 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In a post at my blog, I note that we can choose a different word for flip-flopper: Mature, thinking adult. Someone who learns, and then applies what he learns to life, and yes, changes his mind.
That's someone I want to lead my country. A mature, thinking adult. A grown-up.
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» A mature thinking adult? McCain?
Posted by: wisegalah
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Posted by: sofla100 on Jul 10, 2008 6:31 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One is black, one is white.
One is young, one is old.
One has some charisma, the other is a "fuddy-dud."
So apparently, the above criteria are what the American People will have to use in order to decide the next President. It won't be any separate or distinct polices that each men might have, because they now have virtually the same policies.
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Posted by: ImSwiss on Jul 11, 2008 8:23 AM
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your gut feeling and guess.
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Posted by: GreyFoxThree on Jul 11, 2008 11:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
JT
Ultimate Anonymity
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Posted by: eager-to-learn on Jul 11, 2008 2:30 PM
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Posted by: paulvee on Jul 12, 2008 6:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In 2000, they were one of the reasons that Al Gore lost. They undermined Kerry, whom I detest, but voted for, in 2004. And now they are jumping all over Obama. Mainly because their lives have no meaning unless they rebel against something. Get a shrink, fools.
If you think there is no difference, imagine what would NOT have happened under Gore, instead of Bush. No Iraq war. No destruction of the Constitution. No pullout from Kyoto. The list goes on for a long time.
He is NOT the lesser of two evils. He is a moderate Democrat who would do a fine job with the load of crap that the next president will inherit.
Go vote for Nader if you really need attention.
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Posted by: xmvince on Jul 15, 2008 12:33 PM
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Posted by: tap17x on Jul 27, 2008 2:16 PM
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