COMMENTS: 62
It's Time for a Radically Different View of Patriotism
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But whose patriotism should Barack Obama proclaim? Dionne's suggestion is (Are you sitting down?) … Theodore Roosevelt. Well, that's just "bully." But hey, I thought John McCain owns the rights to TR symbolism in this year's campaign. He got there first, with his "Man in the Arena" video, featuring Teddy on the campaign trail and then cutting to McCain waving to the crowds -- a TR for our time.
Of course everyone can make their own TR, just as everyone can make their own brand of patriotism. Let's take a look at this year's models, liberal and conservative, and see if we can tell the difference.
The McCain-TR pairing seems like a natural. Both made their reputations as war heroes, risking death in service to their country. Roosevelt went on to show his patriotism by presiding over a brutal occupation in the Philippines and sending the Great White Fleet around the world to let everyone know that the United States did "carry a big stick." When the Great War broke out, he scorned President Woodrow Wilson for being too weak to use U.S. force against Germany.
In the McCain video, Germany also figures large. TR's brief appearance is sandwiched between sound bites of Winston Churchill rallying his people to stand tough against the Nazis: "We shall never surrender. Never give in." Then cut to McCain, rallying his people: "We're Americans, and we'll never surrender. They will." Who are "They"? McCain doesn't tell us.
But it doesn't really matter. McCain projects that his TR-style patriotism is not about advancing specific national interests against specific enemies. It's about an abstract emotion: the pride of being so rough and tough, with such a big stick and such resolute will, that we will never surrender to anyone. He would have you believe it's about a clear-cut choice between the rugged Westerner who has proven his toughness in war and the inexperienced Harvard grad whose strength of will has never been tested.
E.J. Dionne wants that Harvard grad to keep on pushing his own version of patriotism, quoting rather different sound bites from Teddy Roosevelt. Real patriots reject "gross materialism," TR said. If "the big business man" wants to be patriotic, he can't just pile up profits. He must benefit "the public which he serves" -- something that tax-cuts-for-the-rich Republicans seem to have forgotten, as Obama often reminds us.
But McCain has not forgotten. In his video, TR's words are not about war but about service to country here at home. He pledges to the American people that he will put all his strength "at your disposal." ''Surely there never was a fight better worth making than the one which we are in,'' Teddy proclaims, in a clip filmed during his 1912 campaign for president, the same campaign that produced the famous line: ''We stand at Armageddon, and we battle for the Lord.'' The sacred battle he fought that year was not against foreign enemies. It was against corporate selfishness, and for progressive domestic policies.
Selfless service, not macho belligerence, is the central theme of McCain's patriotism. "I owe America more than she has ever owed me," he says plaintively, as the video shows the young naval officer in North Vietnamese chains.
Well, it turns out that selfless service is the central theme of liberal patriotism, too. "True patriots believe that freedom from responsibility is selfishness; freedom from sacrifice is cowardice," E. J. Dionne quotes from a liberal manifesto he's touting, The True Patriot.
He might have done better quoting Todd Gitlin, who makes the point more sophisticatedly in The Intellectuals and the Flag. The Left has abandoned patriotism, Gitlin laments, not only because love of country has been so abused in our age of American empire, but because in principle it conflicts with individual freedom. "Patriotism decrees that we are not free. We are obliged" -- obliged to subscribe to our nation's ideals, to take responsibility for making sure all our fellow citizens benefit from those ideals, to pursue that goal by engaging with all Americans, whether we like them or not, in the political arena, where pragmatic compromise is a patriotic necessity.
That's precisely the gist of what McCain says, too. He disagrees sharply with liberals on the specific policies that patriotism should lead to. He puts more stress on how good America already is, while liberals talk more about how good it can be if it lives up to its ideals. And those differences are certainly important when we are choosing which view will have power for at least the next four years. But they are just differences in emphasis.
When it comes to the fundamental meaning of patriotism, it's hard to see much significant dispute. Which is why Dionne does not really want a campaign debate about the true meaning of patriotism. He, too, assumes that there is only one true meaning. What he really wants is a debate about who can best put that one meaning into practice, as he admits in his conclusion: "A competition between Obama and McCain over who can issue the most compelling summons to service would serve the country far better than an empty rhetorical skirmish over which of these candidates is the true patriot."
Roosevelt would have applauded that call, as Dionne points out. But so would McCain.
When it comes to patriotism, liberals and conservatives agree on two key points. First, they treat "America" as a fixed entity with a fixed set of ideals, something larger than any one individual and thus deserving selfless service from every individual. They all agree that John F. Kennedy was right: You should ask only "what you can do for your country" -- as if "country" were the master, and "you" and I and all of us merely servants.
The other point of agreement is a rule of rhetorical style: Never say what patriotism should be. Never treat it as a matter of opinion, a struggle among a variety of options. Instead, take your preferred version of patriotism and declare it the one and only, true red-white-and-blue, meaning of the word. Dismiss all the other options as false and misleading, or what TR decried as mere "silly sentimentalism in words."
But there are many different ways to understand patriotism. Obama has suggested another one himself: "Loving your country must mean accepting your responsibility to do your part to change it." He, too, treats this one option among many as if it were objective fact. But his words open a door (probably unintentionally) to a very different approach to patriotism: one that does not see America as a fixed entity or an ancient set of ideals to be served, but an unpredictably open-ended process, to be created anew every day by the free choices of its inhabitants.
The great exponent of this view of patriotism was Martin Luther King Jr. It's a telling fact that the '60s hero Obama is always likened to is not Dr. King but JFK, the great apostle of serving your country. King may have sounded like he was saying much the same thing as JFK. He certainly praised America's founding ideals and called us all not to challenge but to fulfill them. That's one big reason he could become so idolized by white America.
But a closer reading shows that, between the lines, King opened up the prospect of a radically different view of patriotism. He agreed that patriots prize freedom above all. Yet he gave the ideal of freedom a meaning that few if any of the founding fathers had in mind. For King, freedom meant the ability of each person to discover and then fulfill their deepest human potential, "to become what you were meant to be." But he insisted that no one person could ever have that freedom unless every person had it, because "we are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny."
So King's America is not a static entity, nor a collection of individuals each guarding their own rights. It is an organism, a network of potentialities inescapably interlocked in endless relationships. Each part is always changing, and the changes of each affect all the others. The nation is really nothing but those potentialities and their ever-changing organic relationships.
The essence of patriotism is fully recognizing and consciously participating in that network of mutuality, paying very close attention to -- and constantly responding to -- what everyone else is doing and saying and wanting and hoping.
Out of the manifold relationships emerge ideals and institutions. But those ideals and institutions are valuable only insofar as they support the fulfillment of each and all. The individual is the master; the nation's ideals and institutions exist merely to serve individuals. So in King's America, true patriots do not serve some imagined immutable entity called "America" or "American ideals"; rather, they serve the needs and aspirations of every person.
With the emphasis on "every." No one can be excluded from the single garment of destiny. Everyone counts equally. No one's fulfillment can be ignored or devalued, because, as the Campaign for Community Values puts it, "We are ALL in it together." So no one can be an enemy to anyone else. True patriots are willing to suffer, if need be, to promote the well-being of every other person, even the most oppressive. That is the essence of King's commitment to nonviolence.
Yet the ultimate goal of patriotism is not selfless service, as if we had to restrain some supposedly dangerous "individual self" in order to protect society. As King said, there is nothing inherently dangerous about human nature. And there need be no conflict between the ultimate good of self and nation, because they coexist in one organism, like the fingers and the hand. Patriotism, like the nation itself, exists only to serve the fulfillment of every self.
Since the organic network of relationships is always changing, patriotism is not guided by a fixed set of already-known doctrines or principles. It is an endlessly flexible and utterly unpredictable process. Thus it expresses genuine freedom. It loves an America that truly embodies freedom, because the nation can be whatever we want it to be. And it will become whatever we make of it.
Finally, the logic of King's thought dictates that patriotism cannot stop at the nation's border. The network of mutuality spans the globe; we are each affected by the actions of every other person, everywhere. So none of us can be fulfilling our own potentialities unless every other person, everywhere, is doing the same. To promote our freedom we must promote the genuine freedom of all others, all over the world. The essence of patriotism is paying very close attention to -- and constantly responding to -- what everyone else is doing and saying and wanting and hoping, everywhere.
The patriotism that King offered us would have been strange, perhaps incomprehensible, to Teddy Roosevelt, whom liberals and conservatives alike offer as the model of patriotism. King's patriotism is still strange, perhaps incomprehensible, to most Americans. The prevailing assumptions of our culture simply haven't changed that much since 1912. So perhaps a battle for the mantle of TR, and a debate about who can best restore the America of 1912, is a short-term political necessity.
Or perhaps Dionne picked TR as his paragon of patriotism only to steal the symbol away from McCain. If so, I'm OK with that. I'm willing to do just about anything to keep McCain out of the White House. But if it's Obama moving into that house on Inauguration Day, we should cheer for just a little while, and then get down to the hard political work of pushing the new president to treat MLK, not TR, as the true patriot.
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Posted by: pdxstudent on Jun 20, 2008 1:28 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The thing is, it's not a fixed entity. America and practically every other nation-state in the world is to some degree beholden to the rest of the world, and that is only going to increase in the 21st Century. The nation-state is not an eternal political form, but one sustained by very definite economic and otherwise material conditions. Trans-national organizations and globalized trade have already for the last 50-years fundamentally re-organized the way nation-states conduct themselves internally and internationally. A cursory look at American cultural and intellectual history of the last 50 years or more also shows its "ideals" aren't fixed either. The only thing that remains fixed is our dependence on economic structures that determine the shape, flavor and possibilities of our world.
Patriotism is however you paint it a kind of nationalism that is incompatible with the reality of globalization and ultimately progress toward a more free world. The people of the world cannot work together when they are beholden to an out-dated ideological division like the nation-state.
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Posted by: TDyl on Jun 20, 2008 3:46 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have seen the preamble to the Stanley Cup final with flag-waving idiots crying and "praying". I have seen the "patriotic" first pitch (Bush is such a woman when it comes to pitching) at the first game of the baseball season (I loved the booing this year tho').
It strikes me that, as a nation of immigrants and dispossessed, that "you" have become so intolerant and drawn to the ideal of a flag and not a constitution of which you can justifiably be proud.
"You" threaten other countries with invasion, bombing or sanctions; "you" commit atrocities in the name of freedom and torture what may well prove to be an innocent group of captives for the sake of "our" security - NEVER IN MY NAME YOU BASTARDS (sorry) - "you" use munitions that kill and maim thousands years after they have been dispersed, your government uses private armies that in Iraq want U.S. sponsored immunity, yet in Stateside cases want Sharia law to apply.
We now live in such a fucked-up world that I have really lost any sense I had about who my friends and allies were and I now fear our once greatest ally as a worst terrorist than I do Islamic fundamentalists.
I am so glad that I will die (of natural causes) in the next twenty of so years and that I will not be around to see the start of the 22nd Century and the corporate/governmental mess that will become (think Robocop). The world in which I grew up has become revolting and distended; it now shows itself as one of societies that were vilified in the old sci-fi planet-exploring literature.
Sorry for the rant. I needed to get some things of my chest.
Chris
Bristol, UK
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» RE: Patriotism: it's not just for Patriots Anymore
Posted by: halweiner
» RE: Patriotism: it's not just for Patriots Anymore
Posted by: TDyl
» RE: You Said A Mouthful
Posted by: desidid
» RE: You Said A Mouthful
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Patriotism
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Patriotism
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Patriotism
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: enen on Jun 20, 2008 4:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Patriots & Country
Posted by: TDyl
» RE: Patriots & Country
Posted by: desidid
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Posted by: halweiner on Jun 20, 2008 4:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who is this " you " in quotes? I never supported the war in Iraq. I marched, I yelled, I screamed. It is not my fault that no one was listening.
It is about to be corrected. Unless they steal this election too.
Perhaps you missed the Impeachment Articles, 35 of them, introduced into the House of Representatives this past week or so ago by our Ohio Congressman Dennis Kucinich. Do check it out. We are not asleep here as to the dangers any superpower poses in the world. We really are not as bad, or as bad off, as you portray us. Perhaps you should watch our late night comedy or Jay Leno reruns instead of ESPN.
As for me, I confine myself to Faulty Towers and The Tudors,( the latter making Sex and the City look like Mary Poppins) for my view of once " Great " Britain. We really don't need lectures from losers.
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» RE: Oh, and furthermore, Chris.....
Posted by: TDyl
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Posted by: xvictor on Jun 20, 2008 6:18 AM
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» RE: The Flag Pin brouhaha
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: warble on Jun 20, 2008 7:09 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This land is not your land
You are not free...slave that you are...
and America doesn't give a crap about you...that's why you pay taxes.
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jun 20, 2008 7:40 AM
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» RE: It's not about flag pins and meaningless quotations
Posted by: ChairmanMetal
» UH< pardon me?
Posted by: jrmart
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Posted by: sirios on Jun 20, 2008 8:55 AM
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Posted by: smendler on Jun 20, 2008 9:50 AM
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I love my state. It's played an important role in history, and has many attractive features. That's not to say it's perfect, it's not - there are some problems, to be sure. But it's mine, and I love it anyway. My love for my state doesn't come at the expense of any other states in my country - I don't have to put them down to take pride in where I live.
I love my country. It's played an important role in history, and has many attractive features. That's not to say it's perfect, it's not - there are some problems, to be sure. But it's mine, and I love it anyway. My love for my country doesn't come at the expense of any other countries in the world - I don't have to put them down to take pride in where I live.
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» RE: I love my town...
Posted by: smendler
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Posted by: otto on Jun 20, 2008 10:26 AM
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Posted by: rerses on Jun 20, 2008 11:05 AM
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» Who Needs It?
Posted by: pdxstudent
» my country, right or wrong.
Posted by: jrmart
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Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com on Jun 20, 2008 11:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In this and other presidential campaigns, a candidate's "patriotism" is put into question. And in times of America's history we've put a fanatical zealot in charge of running the U.S.A. just because he claims to be loyal to his land. And from Theodore Roosevelt to George W. Bush, these "patriotic" men have gotten us into wars, with the exception of FDR. Patriotism ought not to be a rationale to lead us into war. Just because they're flag worshippers doesn't mean we ALL have to be and wear a flag lapel on our coats. That smirks of blind allegience to a process in which some fully don't understand its societal implications.
There's nothing wrong of showing your love for a place, but we should love the world we inhabit, sans borders. I love Australia just as much as Finland, the Philippines, Canada without having to be "patriotic" about it. And in today's times, patriotism is synonymous with the "with us or against us" mentality.
A better way must be found to leave patriotism out of politics and no one should syllogistically use patriotism to hide their glaring deficiencies. Don't be fooled by it.
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» RE: An "Ism" We Can Live Without
Posted by: jrmart
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Posted by: jrmart on Jun 20, 2008 2:23 PM
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» RE: OH, YEAH??
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Come on, Carbon.
Posted by: Longdream
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Posted by: carbon-based on Jun 20, 2008 6:20 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Expressions of Patriotism is a right in a country and part of all nations culture..all countries do it. People have a right to express how proud they are of their country - regardelss if they agree with all their policies.
Proclaiming that they have never been proud of their country and then be part of a Presidential campaign would have never been bought by Americans 30 years ago! The left has come to accept anyone who puts down this nation.
They have readily abandoned the call for patriotism by insulting anyone who displays it and actually putting a negative spin on anyone who claims to be a patriot!
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» RE: McCain does own it - by default!
Posted by: desidid
» RE: McCain does own it - by default!
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: McCain does own it - by default!
Posted by: desidid
» RE: McCain does own it - by default!
Posted by: carbon-based
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Posted by: WaldoMaui on Jun 20, 2008 7:04 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's call it what it is: Indoctrination, not Patriotism.
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» RE: "Patriotism" in the Boy Scouts
Posted by: desidid
» RE: "Patriotism" in the Boy Scouts
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: "Patriotism" in the Boy Scouts
Posted by: desidid
» RE: "Patriotism" in the Boy Scouts
Posted by: sirios
» RE: "Patriotism" in the Scouts--Let's Not Throw Out The Baby.
Posted by: Longdream
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Posted by: foreverhope on Jun 20, 2008 8:22 PM
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Democracy and raising children take constant vigilance and patience. Sometimes we have to do or say things that others don't want to hear, but we have to say it anyway because it is their best interests. It doesn't mean we don't love them, on the contrary it PROVES we DO.
I would be lying if I said I have always been proud of the choices my children have made. There are many times they have made mistakes that have had serious consequences for themselves and to me. Telling them they made mistakes does not mean I don't love them, nor does feeling shame in their mistakes. Used properly, with due diligence, shame is a very useful human emotion and can be motivating. It is my RESPONSIBILITY, and DUTY to show them the errors of their ways so they can change direction AND in their long term best interests. I'd be a lousy parent if I didn't.
There are times I have been ashamed of my children, that does not mean I am a poor mother, doesn't mean I stop loving them.
There are times I have been ashamed of my country, but it doesn't mean I don't love my country, no way. Tell me what country DOESN'T OWN SHAME? There have certainly been good reasons to feel shame, especially during our current administration but certainly other times in our history too. Only a fool would say otherwise.
Things to be proud of, things to feel shame for, just like any other country in the history of the world.
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Posted by: ChrisBieber on Jun 20, 2008 10:32 PM
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The root of our country was SELF government FIRST...individual responsibility with individual accountability.
the past 150 years or so has seen the legal and political socialization of our culture, language and government to where the language(words such as "patriotism") are MadHatter-like interpreted, used and defined in a purely subjective and topical way-usually to justify yet another governmental proposal to justify or "fix" something...usually caused by the State itself.
Remember the quote by statist TRoosevelt on patriotism regarding patriotism is NOT blindly supporting the government...cant remember it off my head exactly...
Flags, banners, songs, lapel pins and marching with billion dollar bombers flying overhead is NOT patriotism. Neither is saying nothing when that occurs.
Soon the American people will "patriotically" march into the Skinner Box voting booth and hit the bell for a bigger slice of cheese.
And all of our freedomes will lessen that much more.
Patriotism is the FIRST refuge of those either conditioned lazy citizens or megalomaniac Ceasars on the white horse to save the country from threats from afar....
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Posted by: tap17x on Jun 22, 2008 2:03 PM
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» RE: A real patriot..........
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» RE: A real patriot..........
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: Longdream on Jun 22, 2008 6:39 PM
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From enough concern for the oppressed in the world to fight for them--sure.
But from patriotism? Never.
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Posted by: desidid on Jun 23, 2008 5:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
means.
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» RE: Yes, desi--I think about it all the time.
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Yes, desi--I think about it all the time.
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: Ky Lake Dave on Jun 23, 2008 4:36 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Remember the election in 2006?
America voted for CHANGE.
A little over one year ago:
1) Consumer confidence stood at a 2 1/2 year high;
2) Regular gasoline sold for $2.19 a gallon;
3) The unemployment rate was 4.5%.
Since voting in a Democratic Congress in 2006 we have seen:
1) Consumer confidence plummet;
2 ) The cost of regular gasoline soar to over $4.00 a gallon;
3) Unemployment is up to 5% (a 10% increase);
4) American households have seen $2.3 trillion in equity value evaporate (stock and mutual fund losses);
5) Americans have seen their home equity drop by $1.2 trillion dollars;
6) 1% of American homes are in foreclosure.
America voted for change in 2006, and we got it!
Here is a Civics lesson for you, it's Congress that makes law not the President. He has to work with what's handed to him.
Congress has done poor work. That is why the Democratic Congress has a aproval rating of only 18.5%!
Time for a change BACK to a Republican Congress!
After seeing what change to Democrats did to the Congress why would America vote Obama for a Change?
We have seen a preminition of an Obama presidentcy in the 2006 election.
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» RE: Nice try.
Posted by: Longdream
» No try you Democratic Lemming
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» RE: No try you Democratic Lemming
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: No try you Democratic Lemming
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» Part 2
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» RE: This in no way inspires me to change my opinion.
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: This in no way inspires me to change my opinion.
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: Ky Lake Dave on Jun 23, 2008 4:39 PM
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Kathryn replied, "I would give houses to all the homeless people."
"Wow, what a worthy goal you have there, Kathryn." I told her, "You don't have to wait until you are President to do that... you can come over to my house and clean up all the dog poop in the back yard and I will pay you $5.00. Then we can go over to the grocery store where the homeless guy hangs out, and you can give him the $5.00 to use for a new house."
Kathryn, who was about 4, thought that over for a second while her mom looked at me, and then she replied, "Why doesn't the homeless guy come over and clean up the dog poop and you can pay him the $5.00?"
Welcome to the Republican Party, Kathryn.
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» RE: Politics a child can understand:
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: pdxstudent on Jun 20, 2008 1:28 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The thing is, it's not a fixed entity. America and practically every other nation-state in the world is to some degree beholden to the rest of the world, and that is only going to increase in the 21st Century. The nation-state is not an eternal political form, but one sustained by very definite economic and otherwise material conditions. Trans-national organizations and globalized trade have already for the last 50-years fundamentally re-organized the way nation-states conduct themselves internally and internationally. A cursory look at American cultural and intellectual history of the last 50 years or more also shows its "ideals" aren't fixed either. The only thing that remains fixed is our dependence on economic structures that determine the shape, flavor and possibilities of our world.
Patriotism is however you paint it a kind of nationalism that is incompatible with the reality of globalization and ultimately progress toward a more free world. The people of the world cannot work together when they are beholden to an out-dated ideological division like the nation-state.
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Posted by: TDyl on Jun 20, 2008 3:46 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have seen the preamble to the Stanley Cup final with flag-waving idiots crying and "praying". I have seen the "patriotic" first pitch (Bush is such a woman when it comes to pitching) at the first game of the baseball season (I loved the booing this year tho').
It strikes me that, as a nation of immigrants and dispossessed, that "you" have become so intolerant and drawn to the ideal of a flag and not a constitution of which you can justifiably be proud.
"You" threaten other countries with invasion, bombing or sanctions; "you" commit atrocities in the name of freedom and torture what may well prove to be an innocent group of captives for the sake of "our" security - NEVER IN MY NAME YOU BASTARDS (sorry) - "you" use munitions that kill and maim thousands years after they have been dispersed, your government uses private armies that in Iraq want U.S. sponsored immunity, yet in Stateside cases want Sharia law to apply.
We now live in such a fucked-up world that I have really lost any sense I had about who my friends and allies were and I now fear our once greatest ally as a worst terrorist than I do Islamic fundamentalists.
I am so glad that I will die (of natural causes) in the next twenty of so years and that I will not be around to see the start of the 22nd Century and the corporate/governmental mess that will become (think Robocop). The world in which I grew up has become revolting and distended; it now shows itself as one of societies that were vilified in the old sci-fi planet-exploring literature.
Sorry for the rant. I needed to get some things of my chest.
Chris
Bristol, UK
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» RE: Patriotism: it's not just for Patriots Anymore
Posted by: halweiner
» RE: Patriotism: it's not just for Patriots Anymore
Posted by: TDyl
» RE: You Said A Mouthful
Posted by: desidid
» RE: You Said A Mouthful
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Patriotism
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Patriotism
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Patriotism
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: enen on Jun 20, 2008 4:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Patriots & Country
Posted by: TDyl
» RE: Patriots & Country
Posted by: desidid
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Posted by: halweiner on Jun 20, 2008 4:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who is this " you " in quotes? I never supported the war in Iraq. I marched, I yelled, I screamed. It is not my fault that no one was listening.
It is about to be corrected. Unless they steal this election too.
Perhaps you missed the Impeachment Articles, 35 of them, introduced into the House of Representatives this past week or so ago by our Ohio Congressman Dennis Kucinich. Do check it out. We are not asleep here as to the dangers any superpower poses in the world. We really are not as bad, or as bad off, as you portray us. Perhaps you should watch our late night comedy or Jay Leno reruns instead of ESPN.
As for me, I confine myself to Faulty Towers and The Tudors,( the latter making Sex and the City look like Mary Poppins) for my view of once " Great " Britain. We really don't need lectures from losers.
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» RE: Oh, and furthermore, Chris.....
Posted by: TDyl
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Posted by: xvictor on Jun 20, 2008 6:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The Flag Pin brouhaha
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: warble on Jun 20, 2008 7:09 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This land is not your land
You are not free...slave that you are...
and America doesn't give a crap about you...that's why you pay taxes.
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jun 20, 2008 7:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: It's not about flag pins and meaningless quotations
Posted by: ChairmanMetal
» UH< pardon me?
Posted by: jrmart
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Posted by: sirios on Jun 20, 2008 8:55 AM
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Posted by: smendler on Jun 20, 2008 9:50 AM
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I love my state. It's played an important role in history, and has many attractive features. That's not to say it's perfect, it's not - there are some problems, to be sure. But it's mine, and I love it anyway. My love for my state doesn't come at the expense of any other states in my country - I don't have to put them down to take pride in where I live.
I love my country. It's played an important role in history, and has many attractive features. That's not to say it's perfect, it's not - there are some problems, to be sure. But it's mine, and I love it anyway. My love for my country doesn't come at the expense of any other countries in the world - I don't have to put them down to take pride in where I live.
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» RE: I love my town...
Posted by: smendler
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Posted by: otto on Jun 20, 2008 10:26 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: rerses on Jun 20, 2008 11:05 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Who Needs It?
Posted by: pdxstudent
» my country, right or wrong.
Posted by: jrmart
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Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com on Jun 20, 2008 11:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In this and other presidential campaigns, a candidate's "patriotism" is put into question. And in times of America's history we've put a fanatical zealot in charge of running the U.S.A. just because he claims to be loyal to his land. And from Theodore Roosevelt to George W. Bush, these "patriotic" men have gotten us into wars, with the exception of FDR. Patriotism ought not to be a rationale to lead us into war. Just because they're flag worshippers doesn't mean we ALL have to be and wear a flag lapel on our coats. That smirks of blind allegience to a process in which some fully don't understand its societal implications.
There's nothing wrong of showing your love for a place, but we should love the world we inhabit, sans borders. I love Australia just as much as Finland, the Philippines, Canada without having to be "patriotic" about it. And in today's times, patriotism is synonymous with the "with us or against us" mentality.
A better way must be found to leave patriotism out of politics and no one should syllogistically use patriotism to hide their glaring deficiencies. Don't be fooled by it.
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» RE: An "Ism" We Can Live Without
Posted by: jrmart
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Posted by: jrmart on Jun 20, 2008 2:23 PM
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» RE: OH, YEAH??
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Come on, Carbon.
Posted by: Longdream
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Posted by: carbon-based on Jun 20, 2008 6:20 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Expressions of Patriotism is a right in a country and part of all nations culture..all countries do it. People have a right to express how proud they are of their country - regardelss if they agree with all their policies.
Proclaiming that they have never been proud of their country and then be part of a Presidential campaign would have never been bought by Americans 30 years ago! The left has come to accept anyone who puts down this nation.
They have readily abandoned the call for patriotism by insulting anyone who displays it and actually putting a negative spin on anyone who claims to be a patriot!
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» RE: McCain does own it - by default!
Posted by: desidid
» RE: McCain does own it - by default!
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: McCain does own it - by default!
Posted by: desidid
» RE: McCain does own it - by default!
Posted by: carbon-based
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Posted by: WaldoMaui on Jun 20, 2008 7:04 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's call it what it is: Indoctrination, not Patriotism.
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» RE: "Patriotism" in the Boy Scouts
Posted by: desidid
» RE: "Patriotism" in the Boy Scouts
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: "Patriotism" in the Boy Scouts
Posted by: desidid
» RE: "Patriotism" in the Boy Scouts
Posted by: sirios
» RE: "Patriotism" in the Scouts--Let's Not Throw Out The Baby.
Posted by: Longdream
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Posted by: foreverhope on Jun 20, 2008 8:22 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Democracy and raising children take constant vigilance and patience. Sometimes we have to do or say things that others don't want to hear, but we have to say it anyway because it is their best interests. It doesn't mean we don't love them, on the contrary it PROVES we DO.
I would be lying if I said I have always been proud of the choices my children have made. There are many times they have made mistakes that have had serious consequences for themselves and to me. Telling them they made mistakes does not mean I don't love them, nor does feeling shame in their mistakes. Used properly, with due diligence, shame is a very useful human emotion and can be motivating. It is my RESPONSIBILITY, and DUTY to show them the errors of their ways so they can change direction AND in their long term best interests. I'd be a lousy parent if I didn't.
There are times I have been ashamed of my children, that does not mean I am a poor mother, doesn't mean I stop loving them.
There are times I have been ashamed of my country, but it doesn't mean I don't love my country, no way. Tell me what country DOESN'T OWN SHAME? There have certainly been good reasons to feel shame, especially during our current administration but certainly other times in our history too. Only a fool would say otherwise.
Things to be proud of, things to feel shame for, just like any other country in the history of the world.
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Posted by: ChrisBieber on Jun 20, 2008 10:32 PM
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The root of our country was SELF government FIRST...individual responsibility with individual accountability.
the past 150 years or so has seen the legal and political socialization of our culture, language and government to where the language(words such as "patriotism") are MadHatter-like interpreted, used and defined in a purely subjective and topical way-usually to justify yet another governmental proposal to justify or "fix" something...usually caused by the State itself.
Remember the quote by statist TRoosevelt on patriotism regarding patriotism is NOT blindly supporting the government...cant remember it off my head exactly...
Flags, banners, songs, lapel pins and marching with billion dollar bombers flying overhead is NOT patriotism. Neither is saying nothing when that occurs.
Soon the American people will "patriotically" march into the Skinner Box voting booth and hit the bell for a bigger slice of cheese.
And all of our freedomes will lessen that much more.
Patriotism is the FIRST refuge of those either conditioned lazy citizens or megalomaniac Ceasars on the white horse to save the country from threats from afar....
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Posted by: tap17x on Jun 22, 2008 2:03 PM
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» RE: A real patriot..........
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» RE: A real patriot..........
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: Longdream on Jun 22, 2008 6:39 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From enough concern for the oppressed in the world to fight for them--sure.
But from patriotism? Never.
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Posted by: desidid on Jun 23, 2008 5:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
means.
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» RE: Yes, desi--I think about it all the time.
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Yes, desi--I think about it all the time.
Posted by: Dboy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave on Jun 23, 2008 4:36 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Remember the election in 2006?
America voted for CHANGE.
A little over one year ago:
1) Consumer confidence stood at a 2 1/2 year high;
2) Regular gasoline sold for $2.19 a gallon;
3) The unemployment rate was 4.5%.
Since voting in a Democratic Congress in 2006 we have seen:
1) Consumer confidence plummet;
2 ) The cost of regular gasoline soar to over $4.00 a gallon;
3) Unemployment is up to 5% (a 10% increase);
4) American households have seen $2.3 trillion in equity value evaporate (stock and mutual fund losses);
5) Americans have seen their home equity drop by $1.2 trillion dollars;
6) 1% of American homes are in foreclosure.
America voted for change in 2006, and we got it!
Here is a Civics lesson for you, it's Congress that makes law not the President. He has to work with what's handed to him.
Congress has done poor work. That is why the Democratic Congress has a aproval rating of only 18.5%!
Time for a change BACK to a Republican Congress!
After seeing what change to Democrats did to the Congress why would America vote Obama for a Change?
We have seen a preminition of an Obama presidentcy in the 2006 election.
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» RE: Nice try.
Posted by: Longdream
» No try you Democratic Lemming
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» RE: No try you Democratic Lemming
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: No try you Democratic Lemming
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» Part 2
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» RE: This in no way inspires me to change my opinion.
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: This in no way inspires me to change my opinion.
Posted by: Dboy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave on Jun 23, 2008 4:39 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Kathryn replied, "I would give houses to all the homeless people."
"Wow, what a worthy goal you have there, Kathryn." I told her, "You don't have to wait until you are President to do that... you can come over to my house and clean up all the dog poop in the back yard and I will pay you $5.00. Then we can go over to the grocery store where the homeless guy hangs out, and you can give him the $5.00 to use for a new house."
Kathryn, who was about 4, thought that over for a second while her mom looked at me, and then she replied, "Why doesn't the homeless guy come over and clean up the dog poop and you can pay him the $5.00?"
Welcome to the Republican Party, Kathryn.
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» RE: Politics a child can understand:
Posted by: Dboy
MoveOn Launches Campaign for Bold Progressive Reforms as the Obama Era Begins
Obama's Promise of Change Comes Wrapped in Red, White and Blue
Reactions to Obama's Historic Moment From Around the Globe




