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Election 2008

Was It Really What Jeremiah Wright Said, Or Was It Because He's Black?

By Bill Moyers, Bill Moyers Journal. Posted May 3, 2008.


White preachers are given leeway in politics that Jeremiah Wright wasn't.
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I once asked a reporter back from Vietnam: "Who's telling the truth over there?"

"Everyone," he said. "Everyone sees what's happening through the lens of their own experience."

That's how people see Jeremiah Wright.

In my conversation with him and in his dramatic public appearances since, he revealed himself to be far more complex than the sound bites that propelled him onto the public stage.

More than 2,000 people have written me about him, and their opinions vary widely. Some sting: "Jeremiah Wright is nothing more than a race-hustling, American-hating radical," one of my viewers wrote. Another called him a "nut case."

Many more were sympathetic to him. Many asked for some rational explanation for Wright's transition from reasonable conversation to the shocking anger they saw at the National Press Club.

A psychologist might pull back some of the layers and see this complicated man more clearly, but I'm not a psychologist.

Many black preachers I've known -- scholarly, smart, and gentle in person -- uncorked fire and brimstone in the pulpit. Of course, I've known many white preachers like that, too.

But where I grew up in the South, before the civil rights movement, the pulpit was a safe place for black men to express anger for which they would have been punished anywhere else. A safe place for the fierce thunder of dignity denied, justice delayed.

I think I would have been angry if my ancestors had been transported thousands of miles in the hellish hole of a slave ship, then sold at auction, humiliated, whipped, and lynched.

Or if my great-great-great grandfather had been but three-fifths of a person in a Constitution that proclaimed: "We, the people."

Or if my own parents had been subjected to the racial vitriol of Jim Crow, Strom Thurmond, Bull Conner, and Jesse Helms.

Even so, the anger of black preachers I've known and heard and reported on was, for them, very personal and cathartic. That's not how Jeremiah Wright came across in those sound bites or in his defiant performances since my interview.

What white America is hearing in his most inflammatory words is an attack on the America they cherish and that many of their sons have died for in battle -- forgetting that black Americans have fought and bled beside them, and that Wright himself has a record of honored service in the Navy.

Hardly anyone took the "chickens come home to roost" remark to convey the message that intervention in the political battles of other nations is sure to bring retaliation in some form, which is not to justify the particular savagery of 9/11 but to understand that actions have consequences.

My friend Bernard Weisberger, the historian, says, yes, people are understandably seething with indignation over Wright's absurd charge that the United States deliberately brought an HIV epidemic into being.

But it is a fact, he says, that within living memory the U.S. public health service conducted a study that deliberately deceived black men with syphilis into believing that they were being treated while actually letting them die for the sake of a scientific test.


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Bill Moyers is managing editor of the weekly public affairs program "Bill Moyers Journal," which airs Friday night on PBS. Check local airtimes or comment at The Moyers Blog at www.pbs.org/moyers.

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Rev. Hagee, who endorsed McCain, said "All Catholics are going to Hell." If Wright had said that...
Posted by: yellow on May 3, 2008 11:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
there would be plenty of outrage. This nonsense is racial politics. It must stop so that we can get to the issues that this campaign should be about. Obama is apparently a big threat to the established order. Let's support him.

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Thank you Bill Moyers!
Posted by: YBFREE.com on May 3, 2008 12:14 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Once again Mr. Moyers has proven his keen intellect and respect for the American experience. I am proud to share a heritage with him.

For those still confused and utterly clueless about American history I would like to recommend the following links:

"Uh-Obama: Racism, White Voters and the Myth of Color-Blindness"-By Tim Wise: http://www.lipmagazine.org/~timwise/Obama.html

“The Rev. Dr. Jeremiah Wright and the Audacity of Truth” By Dr. Wilmer J. Leon III: http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/032208F.shtml

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Obama should be ashamed
Posted by: jadresak on May 3, 2008 2:10 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Truth is that Wright's comments when seen in context are a much more accurate understanding of the other America than Obama's understanding of it. Wright is 100% correct in everything he has been saying (except maybe his AIDS comment).

We should be defending Wright and we should NOT defend Obama because Obama is an opportunist who will say what the media wants to hear rather than speak the truth.

The reason Wright is so vilified is because he is one of the few people with sway who is willing to speak the truth about America (not the american people but the government and the american system). Its sad to see Obama disown his pastor even though he knows what Wright is saying is true and he said in the past he could not disown him (just like he could not disown his own grandmother).

Until we can speak the truth and resist being vilified for it in the media, America will never be able to "CHANGE" and obama's speaches will be empty.

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» RE: Obama should be ashamed Posted by: jadresak
» RE: Patience? Posted by: desidid
» RE: Obama should be ashamed Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: Obama should be ashamed Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Obama should be ashamed Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: Obama should be ashamed Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Obama should be ashamed Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: Obama should be ashamed Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Obama should be ashamed Posted by: desidid
» RE: Obama should be ashamed Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: Obama should be ashamed Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: Obama should be ashamed Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: Obama should be ashamed Posted by: steamie
» RE: Obama should be ashamed Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Obama should be ashamed Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Obama should be ashamed Posted by: Quannah
» Wright should join the KKK Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Wright should join the KKK Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: Wright should join the KKK Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Wright should join the KKK Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: Wright should join the KKK Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Wright should join the KKK Posted by: yooper61
» RE: Obama should be ashamed Posted by: sirios
» RE: Obama should be ashamed Posted by: olhsson
It's Always about Race
Posted by: no1kstate on May 3, 2008 2:24 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's not kid ourselves, just because there's a new vocabulary that doesn't have the blatant vitriol of earlier racism doesn't mean race isn't always an issue. Welcome to the real world!

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» RE: It's Always about Race Posted by: donl51
» RE: It's Always about Race Posted by: no1kstate
saddened by all of this
Posted by: nmandowa on May 3, 2008 2:54 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you Bill Moyers, for once again giving me a shred of evidence that tv journalism has some insight, and is not always just a knee-jerk brainless reaction to events. Even though I am not a committed Obama supporter, I was appalled at the press reaction to Wright's conversations, and then deeply saddened that Obama found it necessary (understandably) to disconnect himself publicly from Wright in order to save his candidacy.

A lifelong news junkie, I've given up thinking that we can ever get anything close to the real story from press reports, maybe once in a while they'll get it right, sort of.

So now I secretly pray that, assuming Obama wins the nomination, and then wins the Presidency, that he will eventually and slowly reveal that he really did believe what Wright actually preached all along (reconciliation, not hate; justice, not rebellion; self-knowledge, not blind following of dogma; true patriotism, not jingoism), but he (Obama) was way too smart not to play the corporate game (see Chris Hedges article on Obama on Alternet this week) that he recognized as the only way to win back power for the good guys (the American democracy).

So maybe I live in self-delusion; it's a lot easier to take than the current state of affairs in this country.

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» RE: saddened by all of this Posted by: QCao009
» RE: saddened by all of this Posted by: lamac66
Irony
Posted by: realveive on May 3, 2008 3:42 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The sad thing as that the folks who would benefit most from the wisdom put forth by Bill Moyers only watch Fox news. They miss out on the truth and their ignorance is contributing to the demise of this nation.

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Two things.
Posted by: isobel on May 3, 2008 4:35 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Although I agree with Mr. Moyers' argument in general, I can't help but point out a couple of thngs.
One, even if everyone reported 'truth' in 'Nam as one saw it, not everyone reported facts. Some distorted, some ignored, some overplayed certain facts over other so that inconvenient ones would not get as much coverage. I guess it's not that different for Rev. Wright, for 'soundbites' are, although they are distorted and partially ignored, still technically partial facts.
Two, it is not 'race' par se, but the racISM, that is the problem. By saying 'it's about race', we problematize the bioligical differences themselves, because even though the concept of race is mostly socially constructed, it is done so on the very basic, visible biological differences, like the color of one's skin. It is not that there are differences, but that one particular race is held in higher regard over evey other race is what should be pointed out. You might say it is just semantics, but what you say greatly influence how you think and act.
Race will exist as long as human beings exist. Racism doesn't have to.

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» RE: Two things. Posted by: no1kstate
White and black experiences
Posted by: HughScott on May 3, 2008 5:29 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bill Moyers used an analogy from Vietnam about truth-telling, saying "everyone sees what's happening through the lens of their own experience."

That comparison might be valid with wars but not race relations. How could white Americans possibly understand the feelings of Rev. Wright or any black person, for that matter?

The right of free speech aside, Caucasians who condemn Wright's rants are the real bigots.

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» RE: White and black experiences Posted by: no1kstate
» damn it - you stole my post! Posted by: hurricane hugo
Star powerful
Posted by: YogiBear on May 3, 2008 5:44 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Folks 'round these parts never found a preacher they can't bash -- until Wright came along. I didn't like his comments -- particularly the ones that appeared either willfully ignorant of history or conspiratorial to a heavy degree -- such as the AIDS and syphilis moments. But mostly I disliked the elments that all grandstanding preachers in the public eye eventually make and I always call them out or put them on ignore in my mind.

So yes, it's easy for me to see race being a factor in whites whose own preachers say what I find to be horrible things, but that doesn't mean that Wright's race, or at least his association to the person folks 'round here have deified -- Obama -- is not drawing some folks over to defending the most absurd of his comments.

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» RE: Star powerful Posted by: Spiritgirl
Separation of Church and State
Posted by: Southern Gal on May 3, 2008 5:53 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seeing and hearing the comments made by religious leaders such as Hagee, Robertson, Graham, and Wright has demonstrated the dangers involved in having religious leaders so involved in matters of state and wielding so much influence with people in government.

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» RE: Separation of Church and State Posted by: andabottleof_rum
THANK YOU BILL MOYERS!
Posted by: Quannah on May 3, 2008 7:07 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Bill Moyers can get this, why the hell are so many people here in AlterNet having such a difficult time?

It doesn't have to be so hard.

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MLK - communist
Posted by: jebpgh on May 3, 2008 7:27 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I was in high school the John Birch Society (among others) circulated photos of MLK sitting in a meeting that was co-sponsored by the American Communist Party. Obviously, King was a communist, or at the very least a "fellow traveler". King spoke out on the war in Vietnam and said repeatedly that the United States was a center of global violence. He called for economic equality and the end of poverty. By the time of his death, even liberals had left his cause fearing that he had become anti-American. Today King's most radical views on class war and American sponsorship of violence around the globe would be fodder on the 24 hour news networks. He would have been demonized now - as he was then - but with far more effectiveness. On the night he died, as I crossed my college campus - a Catholic university - my fellow white students were cheering and greeting the news with laughter - praising the end of "Martin Luther Coon". My how times have changed - or have they? Regardless of how I feel about the selected words of Rev. Wright I can't just dismiss his years of public ministry, his church's outreach to the poor and homeless. But more importantly, I can't draw a straight line between a man who has become more bitter to a man who has in every corner of the nation spoken out for unity, a national dialogue on hope and optimism and a public life of work to raise up the hopes of the afflicted and the powerless. How do we push Barack Obama into the sermons of Jeremiah Wright so easily? How do we make it possible for a national movement of young and old, black and white, poor and well-off to be derailed and also made "bitter"? When Rush Limbaugh goes on the air and calls for riots should Hillary win and then laughs about it? When John McCain can embrace the likes of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and John Hagee without any serious challenge to how these much sought after endorsements may reflect his views? But of course we know the answer. We know how the agents of change ultimately threaten the established order, properly represented by the elites - both Democrat and Republican - who profit and live in this feeding frenzy of hopelessness and despair. And when the movement is finally crushed beneath the weight of sound-bite journalism and "Big Lie" politics we will think back to the good old days, when "true patriots" like MLK were really - after all - communists.

Evil will triumph in this election year and it won't be the fault of Barack ahd Michelle Obama. They are two decent, thoughtful people who will have been crushed by the engines of social intolerance and the powerful elites who want to see movements die so that no grass-roots leaders emerge, leaders who cannot be effectively managed. And the spin machines will place the blame on Obama, not themselves for they are as blameless for this as they are for the selling of the war in Iraq. Freedom of the press belongs to those who own it.

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» RE: MLK - communist Posted by: no1kstate
» Sen. and Mrs. Obama Posted by: LeftWright
» RE: MLK - communist Posted by: mboerner
Some progress
Posted by: downbylaw on May 3, 2008 10:45 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think the fact that Obama gave such a great speech on race, and was heard by millions, is a sign that some progress on racial understanding has been made. However, given the sorry state of the mainstream media these days, it's not surprising that he's sinking under an onslaught of shallow and irrelevant news coverage.

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My biggest problem with Rev. Wright
Posted by: fratricide08 on May 4, 2008 3:26 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...is that he's just too educated to say some of the things he said.

At the NAACP speech, Rev. Wright made an astute and much needed observation --in fact I'll say it was one of his themes-- that different does not mean deficient. However, in reinforcing his theme and providing examples to bolster it, he on many occasions ended up undercutting it by using false information. For example, his assertion that blacks and whites learn differently because their brains are different. Giving him the benefit of the doubt and saying well maybe there is an educational difference, the furthest we can rationally go with that line of thought is to say that culture, income, parental involvement -- in other words culture and society -- may influence learning styles. However, what he actually said implied a non-existent biological difference and relied on outdated and discredited studies.

His examples regarding music were also littered with factual errors and stereotypes. He was flat-out wrong when he claimed that only black children are criticized for not speaking properly. And the list of minutia could go on.

The problem is that in all of this (and because of it) his legitimate critiques get lost and/or dismissed. And when he entertains conspiracies like the HIV/AIDs virus, he allows himself to be painted as a loon for no good reason (what I mean by that is that there are plenty of acknowledged and legitimate atrocities to name without the need to go there). Many of his overall points are strong enough and there is evidence enough of both big and small injustices to support them without the need for stereotypes, exaggeration, conspiracies, or anything else that might be seen as intellectually lazy or dishonest to hold them up.

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» thank you fratri! Posted by: foreverhope
Wright and Bush
Posted by: BobS on May 4, 2008 3:51 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jeremiah Wright got more things right in that famous sermon of his then George W. Bush got right in his whole 8 years in the White House.

Bob Simpson
The Bobbosphere

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» RE: Wright and Bush Posted by: foreverhope
Rev Wright is correct and Hagee is a deadly Terrorist
Posted by: Purple Girl on May 4, 2008 5:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I found those sermons the media butchered- the context was exactly what I thought. He was not Wrong! e've been screamint to get out of the ME since the '70's- but were actively Ignored. Just like the gov't Ignored AIDS when it was growing into Epidemic proportions in the late '70's and early '80's- when it was called G.R.I.D. and was spreading throughout Africa.this old 'Recover Catholic' says God Bless Rev Wright for speaking th eHistorical Truth!
As For the snake OIL Dealer Hagee- that man and his followers should be on the 'Terrorist Watch List'. He is far more dangerous then any previous Cult leader- he has 'Public Officials' who buy his Crap who can actually make his 'End of Days' self fulfilling Prophecy come True. Hillary's statement she'd be willing to "obiterate Iran with Nukes' Baffled me until I saw the footage on your online Journal and also on Young Turks (not Turkish, but a very enlightening segment). NOW I AM TERRIFIED!!!
The media has to stop playing those relative 'lite' clips as proof he is Offensive and start showing the Sermons which Prove he is DANGEROUS and who in Gov't supports his diabolic Armegeddon agenda!

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not really about race
Posted by: mwildfire on May 4, 2008 5:56 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's true enough that there is a huge double standard. But I'm not sure that comes from media racism. What it's REALLY about is protecting the power of the elite against any challenge. Clinton and McCain are "safe"--they will never let a concern for justice or the needs of our grandchildren threaten any part of the privileges of the powerful and rich. With Obama, you can't be sure. So now that all the potentially progressive contenders like Kucinich are out of the way, and now that they've played the contest between Clinton and Obama up to enliven the campaign long enough, it's time for the media to pull out the stops to make sure Obama can't take office. Reverend Wright was a handy means. The likes of Hagee and Robertson never challenge the privileges of the rich, so it doesn't matter what they say or who supports them.

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» RE: not really about race Posted by: desidid
» RE: not really about race Posted by: everton9
Bill Moyers, you rock -- HARD!
Posted by: hagwind on May 4, 2008 6:36 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Assimilation and passing, getting by and joining the mainstream all require us -- people of color, women, children, employees, anyone who's in any way beholden to those more powerful for his/her safety or livelihood -- to avoid rocking the boat and pissing off those who affect our well-being and even survival. One result is that the privileged live in a nicey-nice dream world where their prerogatives go mostly unchallenged. They'll only listen to criticism if it's nicey-nice, soft-spoken and oh so reasonable. Anything else is strident, incendiary, radical, anti-American, etc., etc., etc. Anything else is shocking, threatening, and infuriating.

Rev. Wright's big crime was telling his truth without sugarcoating it and dumbing it down for the white folks. Look at it this way: He's paying us white folks a compliment by giving us the opportunity to hear his truth. Bill Moyers and some other white people have proved worthy of the compliment. Plenty of others haven't.

Which is why I very rarely pay such compliments to men, straight people, and people with lots of money and class privilege. Day in, day out, I aid and abet their nicey-nice dream world. Maybe if I speak up a little more loudly and a little more often, the privileged people will be a little less freaked out when someone else tells the truth?

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Mr. Moyers - How about interviewing another theologian?
Posted by: LeftWright on May 4, 2008 7:09 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dr. David Ray Griffin will really wake your audience up.

Go on, call him, I know you really want to.

(don't worry about that foundation money you get for your show, truth is more important)

The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.

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On the Money
Posted by: dayenta on May 4, 2008 7:48 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bill Moyers and frank Rich have both nailed it n this issue.

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» RE: On the Money Posted by: nha16
Do As I Say
Posted by: desidid on May 4, 2008 7:53 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
not as I do. This is remnant thinking from the master/slave relationship. There are many White people who continue to deny that racism exist, that it has been used to advantage by the Clinton campaign, that it is the root of their anger over Rev. Wright. The fact that many Whites seldom acknowledge what has been said by Parsley, Hagee, Robertson, or Falwell is evidence of the permission they have given themselves to define scripture for us. I'm sure somewhere deep down, the feeling is they introduced us to Christianity, therefore scripture is what they say it is. This would explain why so many Christians embraced slavery, Jim Crow, systemic discrimination, genocide, rape, and exploitation of others.

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bozhidar bob balkas
Posted by: bozhidar on May 4, 2008 8:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
US, to me had never been a democracy; else we would not have slavery, lyncing, hironaga, vietnam, palestine, iraq.
US has the one of the best structures of governance for conrtoling domestic and foreign pops.
i agree with much what wright says; exception being jesus.
he sees jesus as son of god while i don't.
to me, jesus had been just another rabido jewish priest who rejected us, the goyim. he had also, if quoted accurately, approbated all the hebrew crimes against other semites.
he, would if alive today, also approve of present crimes by zionists.
after all, bible had been written by judeans who were followers of jesus.
it could be that much of what is in bible is just editorial; wishful thinking, cursing, 'promising', commanding, blaming, etc. thank u

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Rush Limbaugh is getting a big kick out of this situation:
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on May 4, 2008 9:39 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Operation Chaos Army Prepares to Deploy Across Pennsylvania
April 21, 2008

RUSH: . . . Of course, the bottom line here is that Operation Chaos does not have a chosen candidate to win this. Operation Chaos has as a simple, single mission to keep the campaign going; to keep chaos reigning supreme, to keep the Democrats continuing to conduct their war with each other on all fronts.


Why are people on the left so stupid? Why is Bill Moyers wasting his time on this crap instead of, I don't know, interviewing Iraqi soldiers about current conditions in Iraq?

I am now formally placing both the left and the right in this country ON NOTICE. Public Image Limited - that's all it is. In the real world, there are issues - energy needs, warfare, healthcare, the air, the water, the land, education, religion, birth, death - there are no ideologies.

By the way, the U.S. just fired two guided cruise missiles into the heart of Sadr City, right across from the hospital, blowing up a bunch of ambulances.

They appear to be relying on the Syrian strategy used in the town of Hamah - wall it off and destroy it. Google it.

Now, let's talk Vietnam. I like to start with Apocalypse Now as the entry point:

"It's impossible for words... to describe... what is necessary... to those... who do not know... what horror means. Horror. Horror has a face. And you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror... are your friends. If they are not, then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies. I remember when I was with Special Forces. Seems a thousand centuries ago. We went into a camp to inoculate... some children. We'd left the camp... after we had inoculated the children for polio. And this old man came running after us, and he was crying. He couldn't say. We went back there... and they had come and hacked off... every inoculated arm. There they were, in a pile-- a pile of... little arms. And I remember... I-I-- I cried. I wept like... some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. I never want to forget. And then I realized... like I was shot-- like I was shot with a diamond-- a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought, 'My God, the genius of that. The genius.' The will to do that. Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized... they were stronger than me because they could stand it. These were not monsters. These were men-- trained cadres. These men who fought with their hearts... who have families, who have children... who are filled with love... that they had the strength-- the strength... to do that. If I had ten divisions of those men... then our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men... who are moral... and at the same time... who are able to... utilize their... primordial instincts to kill... without feeling, without passion... without judgment-- without judgment. Because it’s judgment that defeats us. I worry that my son... might not understand what I've tried to be. And if I were to be killed, Willard... I would want someone to go to my home... and tell my son everything. Everything I did."

Wright was a Marine, wasn't he? When was he a Marine? 1963. Funny how no one has ever bothered to bring up the subject of Vietnam, and what he thought about it (he was a member of Lyndon Johnson's medical team in the 60s).

Wright is an absolute mockery to the memory of Martin Luther King - the man is a clown.

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Furthermore, why isn't Moyers also discussing Mark Penn and Burson-Marsteller?
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on May 4, 2008 9:50 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That is a far jucier story than anything Wright-related, but it has been deliberately ignored - and I swear the leftist alternative press is doing just as good a job of ignoring it as the corporate mainstream press is.

Bloomberg for some reason is doing a far better job of covering the details - not in any advocacy manner, just straight news:

"May 24 (Bloomberg) -- Presidential candidate Hillary Clinton proposed on Feb. 27 more research funds for new energy technology, including ``clean'' coal systems. The next day, Mark Penn, her top campaign strategist, had a different take on coal.

In an internal blog at his other job, as chief executive officer of public relations firm Burson-Marsteller, Penn wrote of how Burson worked ``behind the scenes'' for TXU Corp., a Texas company seeking to build power plants fueled by pulverized coal, which some environmentalists say would be major polluters.

Contradictions between Penn's private business dealings and Clinton's public policy positions -- which Penn helps formulate and sell to voters -- point up potential clashes in doing both campaign consulting and corporate advocacy. Penn's firm works for clients, from a tobacco company to drugmakers, whose interests are often at odds with the New York senator's agenda.

``That individuals and groups are serving today as both consultants to campaigns and as lobbyists or PR folks for private clients is a modern-day phenomenon that has inherent conflicts of interest,'' said Fred Wertheimer, president of Democracy 21, a Washington-based group that advocates for tougher ethics laws. ``It is a very unhealthy practice.''

Penn, 53, denies his work poses a problem. ``I don't think there's any obligation that the firm's clients agree on every issue that's out there with either themselves or Senator Clinton,'' he said in an interview yesterday. ``Lots of people have lots of disagreements, and that doesn't make it a conflict.''

Fine With Clinton

Clinton campaign spokesman Howard Wolfson said Penn is currently working only with Microsoft Corp., a longtime client, and on the election campaign, although he's free to handle and solicit other clients.

``The real question from the campaign perspective is whether Senator Clinton is comfortable with what Mark is doing, and the answer to that is yes, unequivocally,'' Wolfson said.


Then she fired Penn after he was publicly caught meeting with Colombian trade representatives to figure out a way to force that free trade agreement through - right after she had cooked up some story about NAFTA and Obama with the aid of right-wing Canadian politicians.

Hillary sold her soul to Rupert Murdoch for the chance to be president, I think, and now is furious that the deal is going sour. Just an unsubstantiated opinion, but it seems to fit all the facts.

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Government Experiments You May Not Know About
Posted by: desidid on May 4, 2008 10:38 AM   
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1970 Funding for the synthetic biological agent is obtained under H.R. 15090. The project, under the supervision of the CIA, is carried out by the Special Operations Division at Fort Detrick, the army's top secret biological weapons facility. Speculation is raised that molecular biology techniques are used to produce AIDS-like retroviruses.

1970 United States intensifies its development of "ethnic weapons" (Military Review, Nov., 1970), designed to selectively target and eliminate specific ethnic groups who are susceptible due to genetic differences and variations in DNA.

1975 The virus section of Fort Detrick's Center for Biological Warfare Research is renamed the Fredrick Cancer Research Facilities and placed under the supervision of the National Cancer Institute (NCI) . It is here that a special virus cancer program is initiated by the U.S. Navy, purportedly to develop cancer-causing viruses. It is also here that retrovirologists isolate a virus to which no immunity exists. It is later named HTLV (Human T-cell Leukemia Virus).

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OBVIOUSLY, it's me that is ignorant..
Posted by: isobel on May 4, 2008 12:57 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I did not know that Whites also had the history of being discriminated against by Blacks, did not realise that they also had been enslaved, lynched, and segregated. I also did not realise that such painful history of White discrimination implicitly lives on even today, that a White man has to prove that he is not an enemy of the country even though his middle name kinda sorta sounds weird. Well, that's just me being ignorant about the history of racial injustice of Whites as the hurt, rather than the hurting, right?

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RE: What a Crock
Posted by: desidid on May 4, 2008 1:58 PM   
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Christian Coalition is a group of a number of White churches who have defined the Republican Party in the last 20 years. They are made up of the vestiges of The John Birch Society and other "Christian" groups who have encoded their White racist rhetoric in order to make it palatable for the masses who would rather not think of themselves as racist. Our current president not only moved within a parsec of his parties nomination he has held office for nearly 8 years with the support of White Evangelicals. I don't know what church he attends, no one in the media has seen fit to inundate me with that information. I do assume he and the religious right share ideas about policy. I also know those policies are pro White in that a vast majority of American CEO's are White. I also know they have been openly racist in seeking the destruction of Islam and in our treatment of Muslim people in Abu Ghraib, Iran, and Iraq. We like to forget our involvement with the Shah of Iran some years ago. So your argument is specious at best.

Try and imagine this pastor saying something like "Affirmative Action is a government plan to injure whites,"

I didn't have to imagine it, and I couldn't imagine the press feeling a need to explain it all away.

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