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Election 2008

Obama and Hillary Spin a 'Big Lie' About Iraq

By Joshua Holland, AlterNet. Posted April 5, 2008.


The two Dems lie every time they discuss Iraq on the campaign trail, but the media refuse to call them on it.
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The cable news networks are happy to spend hours on the latest silly campaign squabble but can't bring themselves to point out the plain fact that the two Democratic nominees are lying, blatantly, to the American people about one of the most important issues facing the country today.

On the stump, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are crystal clear in their rhetoric about Iraq. In a statement released on the occasion of the 4,000th U.S. combat death in Iraq, Clinton said, "I have made [a] promise. And I intend to honor it by bringing a responsible end to this war, and bringing our troops home safely." Not to be outdone, the Obama campaign piped in with an even more definitive statement: "It is past time to end this war that should never have been waged by bringing our troops home."

On the campaign trail, the two candidates often speak of bringing the troops home and ending the war, and Democratic primary voters, 80 percent of whom want U.S. troops out of Iraq within 12 months, reward them with boisterous applause.

It's a Big Lie, and everyone who follows the debates over U.S. policy towards Iraq knows it, but refuses to call the candidates on it. Both Clinton and Obama (PDF) have been very clear -- in the fine print -- about the fact that they will leave a significant number of "residual forces" in Iraq, albeit with a more limited mission than the Bush administration has pursued. They would protect U.S. infrastructure and personnel -- Obama says "the U.S. embassy" -- train Iraqi forces and retain a rapid-response force to conduct "limited counter-terrorism" missions.

Although the candidates refuse to specify the exact scope and length of that mission, independent analysts say that it would require at least 40,000 and as many as 75,000 soldiers and marines. When one looks at the big picture, the end game appears to be a significant draw-down of troops -- with as many as 100,000 sent home or redeployed to Afghanistan, where thin NATO troops are struggling to contain a re-emergent Taliban -- calling a halt to most combat operations and patrols, and dismantling most or all U.S. bases outside of Baghdad.

They would, however, maintain the infrastructure of the U.S. occupation and provide the forces necessary to do so. As the Nation's Jeremy Scahill told Amy Goodman,

Both [candidates] intend to keep the Green Zone intact. Both of them intend to keep the current U.S. embassy project, which is slated to be the largest embassy in the history of the world ... And they're also going to keep open the Baghdad airport indefinitely.

Calling the massive campus the United States is building in Baghdad an "embassy" is somewhat misleading. The Associated Press described it as a "fortresslike compound rising beside the Tigris River ... the largest of its kind in the world, the size of Vatican City, with the population of a small town, its own defense force, self-contained power and water, and a precarious perch at the heart of Iraq's turbulent future."

Obama and Clinton have co-sponsored legislation that would increase accountability for the 180,000 security contractors -- some authorized to carry weapons and use deadly force -- that have run around Iraq largely unaccountable under U.S. and Iraqi laws and the military justice system (Clinton only did so after coming under pressure from human rights and other activists). Creating accountability is a positive step, but neither Clinton nor Obama have said that they would discontinue the use of mercenaries and other private contractors in Iraq.

There is a mile-wide gap between the Democrats' analysis of the war and that of John McCain, and that's evident in the candidates' rhetoric. Those differences are significant, in that they would lead to very different political climates in which the issue would be debated after the election.

But all three candidates have embraced the Catch-22 that assures our enduring presence in Iraq. It can be summed up like this: U.S. forces must remain in Iraq as long as an active insurgency contributes to its instability, and an active insurgency will continue to create instability until the United States makes a commitment to a full withdrawal.

Having accepted that narrative, the sad reality is that the Democratic candidates' Iraq policies differ only incrementally from that of John McCain, or from the long-term "cooperation agreement" Bush is attempting to negotiate with the Iraqi government his administration installed in Baghdad.

McCain, like Bush, speaks only in the vaguest terms about drawing down troops "as the Iraqis stand up," but, short of implementing a draft, a president McCain would have little choice but to make significant cuts to our current troop levels. So, the difference between the Democratic and Republican candidates is one of numbers, rather than approaches. John McCain will likely draw down fewer troops than the Democrats would, and would have them continue to patrol the streets of Iraq. But all of the presidential candidates share similar assumptions about the United States playing a central role in Iraqi affairs moving forward -- all will retain the infrastructure of the occupation for the foreseeable future.


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Joshua Holland is an AlterNet staff writer.

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Obama will maintain the status quo
Posted by: Richard House on Apr 5, 2008 12:58 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and because it all fits into the Big Picture he can’t or won’t even try to change it. Looking a bit closer at America’s global web of garrisons, the consequences are mostly negative. Most of the US established military bases across the world have become "little Americas," with social, economic, political, and cultural impact on the host countries. And they continue to expand. A good example is the new airbase in the works for Vicenza, Italy which I believe is an international heritage site (as if the Americans care).

They plan to build a military garrison within 2 kilometers of the center of this beautiful and ancient city and will probably stock the airbase with warehouses full with nuclear and chemical weapons. Since I am involved on the ground there with the protests, it is nevertheless a hopeless situation. The fine detail in Obama’s statement about Iraq in the PDF, which Joshua Holland noted, also points to the probable consequences for the continued expansion of US bases in Europe, especially Italy which will logistically become a major staging center for incursions into the Middle East to fight whatever cause comes along. For the time being it is global terrorism. Meanwhile, how about our government focusing on rebuilding America instead of Iraq. Our country is a mess.


Pointless

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» UNESCO Posted by: Dboy
» You just can't leave the party! Posted by: carbon-based
What a bunch of clunkers
Posted by: vox persona on Apr 5, 2008 2:19 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now that smirking chimp the boy emperor ripped the lid off of Pandora's Box, and created a self-sustaining perpetual state of war in Mesopotamia, who is there to turn to? Hundred-Year-War Bomber John? I've always been a third party protest-voter, but this year I am truly discouraged. The only thing I have left to hope for is an out-of-the-blue Unity ticket....but who? Chuck Hagel/James Webb? Evan Bayh/William Cohen? Of course the Dem has to be #1, for Supreme Court appointment purposes. Look for Chuck Hagel (he's everywhere, these days....next Friday on Real Time w/Bill Maher), and listen to him carefully. As someone with Republiphobia, I can even envision voting for him. How about it, Alternetters? What is the lowdown dirty scoop on him? There must be some kind of dealbreaker concerning him. I know there are few indeed who post here who can swallow hard and pull the lever for a Repug, but Chuck Hagel is presently displaying the proper amount of disgust with this "president" (imposter to the throne playing "dress-up president). I doubt anybody can undo the damage done by these cretins. Clinton and Obama's lies about Iraq seem the least of our problems.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: What a bunch of clunkers Posted by: xi_people
» 5 points for Ellie1 Posted by: joeunix
» RE: What a bunch of clunkers Posted by: redstar1970
» RE: What a bunch of clunkers Posted by: xi_people
» RE: Hagel Posted by: Dboy
» RE: What a bunch of clunkers Posted by: TheJibreelaMonsters
Terrorist
Posted by: HeKnew on Apr 5, 2008 2:22 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
McLizard, Shillary or SmoovB...

That's IT?


Direct Democracy

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Spammer!!!!!!!!!! Posted by: chuckjs
» RE: Spammer!!!!!!!!!! Posted by: redstar1970
» RE: Terrorist Posted by: Fishbone Soldier
» The only candidate who can win Posted by: bthespoon
» Wow! That was profound. Posted by: joeunix
» RE: Wow! That was profound. Posted by: dronkenpiraat
» RE: JUST DON'T VOTE PERIOD Posted by: edgar_michel
Who spins the Iraqi Death Count
Posted by: Abushite on Apr 5, 2008 3:46 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
4 million displaced Iraqis from their homes,
Hundreds of thousands maimed crippled by Americans -= countless hundreds of thousands dead

The Obscenity of the Clintons' $109,000,000 while
millions starve. $38,300 a day for honest work

They are both scum!

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» RE: Who spins the Iraqi Death Count Posted by: nochicagoboys
They Can Be Pressed
Posted by: Urstrly on Apr 5, 2008 5:09 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The tone of these comments gets me down, and I think the piece sets it up by claiming that the candidates lie every time they speak. There's plenty of distortion in the mainstream media, but calling the candidates liars just invokes cynicism.

Having demonstrated against this war since before it began, I don't know why you don't appeal to groups like United For Peace and Justice, Not in Our Name and Code Pink to press the candidates to commit to total withdrawal. We all should, because they need to know that beyond election day we will hold them accountable.

Obama talks about a new kind of foreign policy; he needs to hear that extending the American empire should not be part of it. Clinton I have less hope for, because she backed the war from the beginning and her foreign policy seems to be an extension of Bill's, which was much too timid when some diplomatic pressure might have worked. But either of them gives me more hope than McCain, who has become little more than a collection of slogans unable to grasp any facts or nuance.

The anti-war demonstration I attended a couple of weeks ago felt as though the air had gone out of it, and I think it's because many people's energy has shifted to the election. It's not too late to influence that debate.

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» RE: They Can Be Pressed Posted by: joe2171
» RE: They Can Be Pressed Posted by: MWD2484936
Thank you
Posted by: chuckjs on Apr 5, 2008 5:27 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
for finally doing an article on this. The Democrats are just as bad as the Republicans. Remember they voted and helped pass quite a bit of the legislation that has brought your country to where it is! And they are not addressing the Iraq war in any type of genuine way. Ahh the tactics of distraction. Looks like the fog is starting to clear over the USA.

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» RE: Thank you Posted by: agathena
Note to "a bushite"
Posted by: deatonfl on Apr 5, 2008 5:29 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What a laugh when I read the comments of "a bushite".....are we really suppose to belive that he cares about the death toll in Iraq, or the Iraqi people that have been misplaced???

Then he has the gall to go after the Clinton's for doing so well financially...what a laugh. At least they paid over 30% in taxes and donated 10 million dollars to charity...let's look at any Republican in the same financial category...that will tell the real story.

Sorry Bushies, (and Repubs) we all have your number!

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» RE: Note to "a bushite" Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Note to "a bushite" Posted by: herronsmith
» "What a maroon" Posted by: 2dogarage
» RE: "What a maroon" Posted by: Quannah
» RE: "What a maroon" Posted by: agathena
Obama and Clinton lie about health care, environment
Posted by: bthespoon on Apr 5, 2008 5:44 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
..and trade policies too. Why has the Democratic Party forsaken "we the people"?

Oh wait, I think I know the answer to that.

We the people are screwed. A little less so with Democrats than Republicans, but still incredibly screwed either way.

I think I know why Ralph keeps running, and it has nothing to do with ego and everything to do with issues.

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It is now confirmed
Posted by: sss4r on Apr 5, 2008 5:55 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The agenda of the United States is imperialism--and the Democrats are only telling their base what they want to hear in order to get their votes, but no matter which of the two parties wins, the result will be the same.

The government has nothing but contempt for the American people--we exist only to fuel the war machine, and this will not change if a Democrat is elected--Democrats are no longer a proper opposition party, they secretly support the war as well as the economic policies that are making us all poor. I say this after 10+ years of voting Democratic. The only candidates who spoke the truth were laughed at and excluded from the debates. I will be voting 3rd party from now. I hope after reading this article that you will agree that we need change, and that means freedom from two political parties that are manipulating us all.

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» RE: It is now confirmed Posted by: isnamthere
What about the Izrael Lobby's leash on them?
Posted by: MikeOckhurtz on Apr 5, 2008 5:57 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How can anyone write an article like this and not once mention the Izrael Lobby's stranglehold over American politician's? If any one of these candidates had real courage and said that they would stop the war, bring our troops home, and reconfigure our attitudes toward Iraq and Iran and really work for peace in the Middle East by starting with solving the Izraeli and Palestinian problem, they would be lynched in the pro-Izrael media and marginalized to obscurity.

Hillary and her comment on bringing "freedom" to Iraqis is absurd enough to prove she's unfit for any office and disgusting on it's face. She is a tool and a deceiving elitist no different from Bush because everyone knows that if she were president, she would surely feel obligated to prove how tough she is by using the military as her surrogate muscles. God knows she's odd, and so does every one else.

Obama - who knows? But at this point, even though he has at least publicly swallowed the Izrael Lobby's coolaid, I can't imagine him eagerly dropping bombs on people to prove his manhood. In fact, I'm guessing that he will tell Izrael that it's time to fuck off and do without our money if they don't stop their Holocaust against Palestinians. If a brown skinned man as American President can accept the racism of the Izrael and neocon agenda than everything is hopeless.

The Maverick is just a plain old poopy diaper. He should have stayed in his tiger cage and done America a true service instead of giving us years of corruption an sleaze as a leach in the Senate.

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Watch their emphasis...
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Apr 5, 2008 6:11 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The mentality of our presidential candidates is that without achieving victory, they can do nothing, so victory becomes the all-consuming goal. Words are just words, and you say what needs to be said in order to win the election, so that you can effect your political vision, whatever it may be. You must also have a broad base of media support - without that, the politician is finished - and that means pleasing the owners of the media.

Yes, the corporate media exerts primary control over the U.S. election process via story vetting and specific reporter assignments by editors, who are themselves immediately fired by corporate media executives for any insubordination, and if that fails, the whole concern gets bought up and gutted by the likes of Rupert Murdoch, while the FCC sits by and smiles.

There is a lot of TV news coming out of Iraq - it's only available via internet sites, however. For example:

"Thousands protest Iraqi government raids"

Anyone realize that a million protesters are going to hit the streets in Iraq in a few days, in an anti-U.S. occupation protest? Will CNN and FOX have their cameras ready? Unlikely.

Who won the battle of Basra? April 1

Iraq ruling elite needs US troops to stay in power, March 31

Iraqi refugees in Syria, March 30

US bombs Baghdad's Sadr City as rockets and mortars hit Green Zone, March 29

The blanket of silence means that the corporate media hasn't really changed since 2002, when the war promotion propaganda began to fill the papers and the airwaves in a 24-7 non-stop barrage. The recent coverage is along the same lines.

CNN ran "Will Obama Withdraw from Iraq" - featuring, unbelievably, Michael O'Hanlon of the Brookings Institute, a major invasion supporter who pimped the Iraqi WMD B.S. to the public - still an expert, tho. Also, the piece appear to claim that Clinton was the one who would get troops out - sheer propaganda. Also includes a shot of a staged pro-Maliki government "protest".

Or, you can watch a piece on topless boating.

CBS News ran some semi-decent coverage, completely lacking in any background analysis, on the rocket attacks on the Green Zone, quoting Robert Gates. Better than nothing? No gory shots allowed, of course. That would be tasteless. It does show what a messed up situation U.S. soldiers are stuck in, however. Another piece is more or less identical - "reality show TV" with no discussion at all of why they're fighting. John Rendon must be proud.

We could continue, but this is the same across the board. The worst two appear to be CNN and FOX. FOX is a bad joke - a lead-in commercial about the glory of coal, no video from Iraq, but they do have a story on "sexual novelties for older men." Bill O'Reilly-inspired, no doubt.

The corporate press outlets are all owned by Wall Street interests that also are the majority shareholders in all major U.S. corporations. They want to see the Iraq occupation continue into the future indefinitely so that their shareholders can reap the economic benefits of U.S. control of all aspects of the Iraqi economy.

P.S. "appalling", not "appealing"?

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Help Phil Donahue promote this important movie
Posted by: representativepress on Apr 5, 2008 6:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
see video: See Body of War, Hear Body of War
Help Phil Donahue promote this important movie, directed by Phil Donahue and Ellen Spiro, send this video link to others to make people aware of Tomas Young's story. Buy Tomas Young's double album and help the cause:
http://representativepress.googlepages.com/bodyofwar

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All too true but ...
Posted by: marxalot on Apr 5, 2008 6:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Progressives need to back-burner their big plans for the moment. This is a stanch the bleeding election cycle. We will be doing well to keep McCain out of the WH. We all know an Obama or Clinton presidency will be a lot more of the same-old.

We know that.

We know the worst that the Dems are capable of. And don't lecture me about 3rd parties. It ain't going to happen. Not in this cycle.

So calm down and get behind the least of the two evils. If it's Obama, just roll your eyes and cast the vote. If it's Clinton bring a bucket. You may become sick. But cast the damn vote.

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» RE: All too true but ... Posted by: redstar1970
» RE: All too true but ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: All too true but ... Posted by: VAGreen
» RE: All too true but ... Posted by: VAGreen
» RE: All too true but ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
The Black Conservative on Liberal Blogs!
Posted by: TheJibreelaMonsters on Apr 5, 2008 6:41 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Silly kids. Obama's Children of the Corn will make excuse for him like the Massachusetts Moon bats that defend the Governor Deval Administration. These guys are using this as a get rich quick scheme to sale more books while the only thing you'll be left with is change in your pocket.

tomorrow Obama can say he is a Republican and you will make an excuse for that too!

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» **TROLL ALERT** Posted by: Quannah
» RE: **TROLL ALERT** Posted by: joeunix
» RE: **TROLL ALERT** Posted by: Quannah
» RE: **TROLL ALERT** Posted by: Quannah
» RE: **TROLL ALERT** Posted by: e rice
What is the purpose of this article?
Posted by: tom mikesell on Apr 5, 2008 6:43 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is this just some MSM fallout with a little more context and support?

Your inflammatory headline and seeming insistence that the only way to be against this "war" is for our next President to snap their fingers and "POOF" be done with it, is childish and insincere.

The conclusion seems to be nothing more than to help folks feel better about voting for John McBush.

I was about to donate to AlterNet this morning. I'll have to think about it some more ...

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Once begun war is very messy and not so easy to end
Posted by: foreverhope on Apr 5, 2008 6:54 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Once commited war is very complicated. I don't EXPECT, I don't even WANT, our next President to explain exactly what they will do to end this war. That is why we elect a president, hopefully one with integrity, courage and good judgement, leadership abilities, a commander-in-chief. However, I do EXPECT once in office, and with the right advise, an exit strategy will be developed to begin safely bringing our soldiers home as soon as possible. Obama has outlined a method, so has Hillary. Obama is the ONLY candidate talking about the conditions of our veterans.

That exit strategy should also include whatever needs to be done to rebuild Iraq, without military occupation. We need to care properly for our returning soldiers, their conditions are deplorable.

Our military needs to be rebuilt too, thanks to GWB it is a mess, everything is a mess. God help our next President and this country.

NO, I DON'T WANT A HAWK FOR PRESIDENT BUT I DO WANT OUR COUNTRY PROTECTED.

We can't allow our dovish beliefs to cloud our judgement, we need a strong defense.

The media as a whole is NOT holding GWB/CHENEY responsible now any more than at the beginning of this war. Therefore the war, the Iraqi people, our soldiers and veterans, are invisable and easily forgotten.

Should be calling it 'The Long Invisable War'.

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A typical article from Holland
Posted by: Earthian on Apr 5, 2008 6:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Holland penetrates the propaganda put out by the Democrats; he calls an occupation an occupation not a war; he relies on polls of Iraqis; he provides a detailed overview of the situation focusing on human factors of perception in Iraq; and his underlying assumption is an end to violence and lawlessness by the US. It takes a lot of work to put an article like this together. This article and so many others by Holland are a great service to the progressive cause. Bravo to Joshua!

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the media at the heart of it
Posted by: mwildfire on Apr 5, 2008 7:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Remarkable how little mention of oil there was in this long piece, or in the one about how nice the Iranian people are. I suspect the writer of that one was being disingenous, presenting Iranians as being baffled as to why the US would want to attack them after Iran aided the US after 9-11. No doubt Iranians actually said what people in essentially all of the rest of the world say: "It's about the oil." The exception being the United States, where this is not said in polite company, and much of the population pretends to believe the silly stories about threats from Saddam Hussein or bringing democracy to the Middle East.
The previous poster has it right--the media is at the heart of how this is done, and I'm getting a little irritated with stories that say the American people have lost interest in the war, citing as proof that the media is no longer devoting much coverage to it--as though we had any say in that! No, the opinions of most Americans are shaped primarily by the mass media, mainly TV, and there is a clear agenda in support of the corporate interests with which the media giants are allied: weapons companies, drug companies, oil companies, and the US government.

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» One thing about Oil Posted by: BCcovers
Apologize and Leave
Posted by: ronheri on Apr 5, 2008 7:11 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ron Paul said it best: "We should have never went into Iraq/We marched in, now we just march out". Completely and say we are sorry.

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» so easy... Posted by: foreverhope
» RE: so easy... Posted by: lenioui
» RE: so easy... Posted by: lenioui
This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
» frigging nutty trolls Posted by: foreverhope
» Election season brings out the trolls! Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: Obama Connection to Terrorists Posted by: redstar1970
» RE: Obama Connection to Terrorists Posted by: edgeofnowhere
Out now!
Posted by: pakebeer2u on Apr 5, 2008 7:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wisen up and end the OCCUPATION of Iraq now, this has NEVER been a WAR.
Jail the offspring of the Bush dynasty and his cohorts including some of those weasels in the legal sector.
Spend at least 10% of the actual cost of war to help the Iraqi freedom fighters (some call them terrorists) to rebuild their country and let the other oil exporters in the area do the same.
There will be still 90% left to take care of the vets in a honorable way, to take care of education and to reroute this country to civilization.
Let's try to be civilized human beings and refrain from promoting and glorifying military force.

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» RE: Out now! Posted by: Dboy
Finally, A Brief Dose of Obama Reality from AlterNet
Posted by: patsy6 on Apr 5, 2008 7:38 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you, AlterNet, for finally opening your eyes just long enough to choose to publish an article containing something negative about Barack Obama. Up to now, you have been part of the perpetuation of the lie described in the article. Several of the former Democratic candidates for president, Edwards and Kucinich among them, did, in fact, advocate a total withdrawal of troops from Iraq. Edwards' plan was to keep a small, rapid reaction force in Kuwait, not in Iraq. A major opportunity has been missed, but it's not too late. We need to increase the pressure on Clinton and Obama by keeping the other candidates' plans at the forefront of political discourse, and we need to start letting Clinton and Obama know that we know they're lying.

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» Well said! Posted by: joeunix
» RE: Well said! Posted by: eskit
» AlterNet doesn't have eyes Posted by: Joshua Holland
Left Out, Again
Posted by: jebpgh on Apr 5, 2008 7:53 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I was at what turned out to be the final SDS convention in Chicago in 1969, I remember when RYM walked out and PL took the mike to proclaim they had just succeeded in taking control of the most important organization in the New Left. I was sitting in the balcony with my fellow CADRE printers (Chicago Area Draft Resistance) and we looked at one another and spontaneously broke out in what would become the headline a day or so later "Create Two, Three Many SDS's!". After which we started to make plans to find a way to steal their Heidlberg printing press from 1608 W. Madison.

The problem with the Left is - and always has been - the Left. It has this periodic love affair with electoral politics which then dissolves as soon as a progressive becomes a front-runner with a better than even chance of winning. At which time they start applying litmus tests and challenges to their candidate's credibility which - eventually - ensures the defeat of the candidate.

There is a broad consensus that the war in Iraq was and is a mistake. There is NOT a broad consensus that immediate withdrawl is the right course of action. I am content to start with the premise that we are better off with a president who starts, Day One, planning our departure (which I think both Clinton and Obama will do) vs. a candidate who starts thinking about a long-term occupation and a denial of the reality on the ground (which McCain will most certainly do). The only sure protection against the continued policy of American empire is to ensure that a progressive Congress is elected and that we have a president who understands the relationships between the executive and legislative branches as the founders intended.

There are those of you among us who, like Tom Lehr said about the Lincoln Brigade, would "lose all the battles but had the good songs". Try not to screw it up this time folks - we are - after all - a republic.

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» False dichotomy Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: False dichotomy Posted by: Spot
This is news???
Posted by: gellero1 on Apr 5, 2008 8:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Council on Foreign Relations and other policy wonks have always called the shots.

This IS the new 'Hundred Years War'.

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A reality check
Posted by: Julian on Apr 5, 2008 8:12 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What do readers think of the crime of “home invasion”, of those who invade someone’s home, bully and assault the terrified occupants, steal at will, then trash the joint and vamoose? Who would want to carry a “Support our Perps” badge or car sticker?

What if it’s not just one home but an entire country? Hundreds of thousands of homes? Not just frightening but deliberately killing the occupants (“kicking ass”) especially if they have the temerity to resist? Stealing resources on a massive scale? And unlike the domestic home invader, refusing to leave?

If the home invader is a criminal, then surely anyone who orders military aggression and occupation, willingly participates in it, lies for it, votes funds to sustain it, promises to continue it even if at a reduced level, is nopt just a mere criminal but is a **despicable** criminal, someone with no shred of honour. This includes all of Obama, Clinton and McCain. OK, Obama just **might** be a catalyst for putting his country on a path leading to the decency that once smashed German and Jap aggression and tried and hanged the worst of the criminals. But all three of the US presidential front-runners are war criminals as are the leaders of the rest of the countries in the Coalition of the Lying. Use them, yes. But respect them, never.

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The "Big Lie" is about to be presented to the public - by Petraeus and Crocker.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Apr 5, 2008 8:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Great article, but it did cross my mind that the "Big Lie" (we are going to withdraw troops) is an across-the-board phenomenon, promoted by GW Bush and Petraues as well:

"Petraeus has already made recommendations to President George W. Bush about the next stage of operations in Iraq. He is expected to tell lawmakers that the currently planned reduction in troops can continue through July, followed by an assessment period likely to last at least a month. . ."

Public opinion has turned strongly against the occupation of Iraq, and that's resulted in both the media silence as well as a boost in domestically-targeted propaganda produced by the U.S. military - which is a violation of the Smith-Mundt Act, 1946

This, by the way, is all a consequence of the overarching U.S. Agenda: maintaining the empire. We're like the British Empire, tottering along on out last legs, unwilling to put down the mantle of global superpower. A classic case of imperial overreach, followed by domestic bankruptcy, all engineered by a crew of aristocratic-minded idiots who came in puffed up on their own propaganda.

Let's not forget who cooked this all up, either: the executive branch took the lead, and Congress followed, all driven on by a relentless media campaign and fake intelligence from the DIA, the CIA, the British and Chalabi's INC. That was the real "Big Lie" - that Saddam was a threat to the U.S. because of his WMDs and ties to Al Qaeda, and it was heavily promoted by the likes of Doug Feith (Stephen Colbert in real life) and Ken Pollack: ex-CIA, ex-NSA, now Michael O'Hanlon's buddy-boy at the Brookings Institute, and author of "The Gathering Storm" - a thick book, full of lies, which became the neocon bible on Iraqi WMDs in 2002.

Petraeus is a propaganda expert who is running a massive disinformation program - see the Winter Soldier interview of Captain Luis Montalvan:

"Q: When watching the media in the U.S., do you believe they’ve gotten the whole story?

A: No. And they haven’t gotten the whole story because general Petraeus and his robust information operations cell, you know, which is a new fancy term for propaganda - in the Army we have information operations. Their new robust machine is propagating the successes of the surge, which are fallacious, largely - and can’t adequately be contradicted by the press because the press are essentially relegated to the Green Zone, and are essentially regurgitating, you know, the press conferences from General Petraeus and his information operations cell.

So what you have is an over-reliance on Iraqi journalists, who are doing a noble job of trying to cover the story as best as they can, but the story is not being conveyed to the American public in the manner that it should - and the mainstream media is only interested in soundbites. They’re not interested in covering in depth stories, and they continue to allow pundits, you know, on Crossfire and on these shows that give three to five minute interviews which don’t allow for deep-minded analysis and dialogue regarding what’s going on.

They’re missing the fact that the large majority of the population in Baghdad no longer lives in Baghdad. So to assert that a decrease in violence in Baghdad is a successful result of the surge is a mistruth."


P.S. The Virginia-based economic hitman firm in Iraq and Afghanistan is BearingPoint.

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Capitalism and Energy
Posted by: Southern Gal on Apr 5, 2008 8:24 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We know that the empire building of the United States is focused on supporting corporations in making huge sums of money in the global economy and trying to take control of the world's energy resources. Right now the focus is on oil, but control of water is also becoming crucial.

Since the Presidential and Congressional campaigns require huge sums of money to win and the candidates have to pass the money hurdle to even get in the races, it is doubtful that we will see major changes in our policies supporting empire building. The candidates don't dare to challenge the huge corporations with their money and their influence too much.

This country has lost some of its authority in being the major superpower on earth through the compromise of our financial systems, but we still have the largest and best funded military in the world. That is our claim to superpower. We don't manufacture much anymore and we have outsourced much of our military equipment to other countries. We don't have money because we are in such huge debt. Our superpower is based on an insubstantial base and can crumble when those countries on whom we depend for money and goods to support our military take a stand against us.

There have to be major changes in our energy consumption and our way of living in this country. No one has really outlined for the citizens of this country what that would look like and how it will be done. The current and the upcoming administration will be loathe to share the hard facts with the citizens of this country. We will continue to play the role of superpower until other countries challenge us and pull the plug. These administrations know that this won't come in their watch, so they will delay the pain to future generations.

I am stunned to see the enormous amounts of money that are going into this cmpaign. I'd like to think that the money we are contributing will lead to positive changes, but I am cynical enough to know that change in well entrenched and established systems is hard and takes a long time. I'm not sure that the people and the leaders of this country have the will or the stamina to challenge capitalism and control of energy resources.

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We The People, War, Peace and APD.
Posted by: bc430 on Apr 5, 2008 8:33 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"APD is a mental disorder defined by the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual: "The essential feature for the diagnosis is a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood." Considered essential features of the disorder are deceit and manipulation."

Thanks for the above concise look into the personality of America the Country. The nation whose history has been steeped in a warped set of "values" that taught some of it's citizens that they had a divine right to devalue other human beings. The moral arc of the universe is long and it bends towards a force that naturally destabalizes a culture whose very foundation is rooted in the shifting sand of deceit and manipulation.
It was just a matter of modern time after battering the collective brain of America with the ram of miseducation until someone like Josh Holland would write a piece of numbskull bulls**t like this in defense of the global chaos captained by one of the moronic inbred rich White members of the ruler group. Stone the messenger - the message always survives.
Dr. Martin L. King Jr. told you and Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. is telling you 40 years later what each of their law abiding, Black, Baptist, married to their mother, fathers told America before either of the young prophets were born.
These men's daddies proclaimed the message of hope and change in a climate of State sponsored terrorism and social insanity. They developed mountain moving faith in the God of Abraham, Moses and David. They believed the message of Christ's resurrection in spite of it being preached to them by mentally deranged and misguided un-believers. Regardless of Pat Buchanan's take on Black ingratitude to the benevolent sponsors of their forebears' transatlantic cruise from Africa to the Americas the source of the disorder should be obvious to all in the year 2008.
Jeremiah Wright and Barack Obama are not the destroyers of America and the downside of global peaceful coexistence.

What is most needed right now is the standing down of the owners of several year old pick up trucks laden with National Rife Association, Military, W04 & Cheney/Bush, Hillary, McCain, Pro Life etc. and other Republican talking point bumper stickers. These who post Chinese made lapel pens on their garments and American flags on front porches of houses valued at the price of a new pick up truck are those whose children are sacraficed like Ky.Fried Chicken for the increace of Halliburton and Carlyle Group Profit$. Despised, deceived, manipulated by richer White folk the peasant "patriots" march off whereever they are wound up and pointed singing Christmas carols, God Bless America and shouting curses at Black American Educators and enlightened War Veterans.
They think that someone saying God Damn is taking the "Lord's" name in "vain" because they lack proper education, and that's a God Damned Shame. And if such utterance is intoned in a Church building on Sunday morning from the "pulpit"... O My Gawd...Communist..Devil worshiper you must be.

On that same Sunday morning usurous interest is compounding on that poor White sucker's credit card for crap he made Santa Claus bring his precious little children Christmas before last. His rich White political and banking cousins have come up with another use for his broke White Arse. They are going to take Billions more from the treasure and launder it through Wal-Mart and their banks using the poor boys and girls as unwitting acesseries to their scheme.
What are you going to do with your $300 or $600 govt. economic stimulus check? Sure you are. You are too poor to break the chain of the money laundering scheme of your White cousins. They get billions and let you hold $300 or $600 for a hot second and you be happy.
(cont. below)

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The bigger lie
Posted by: daw13 on Apr 5, 2008 8:56 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
is that this "war" was the result of decisions made by the incumbent and his bunch. It was a decision made by a power elite, to whom both political parties bow, resulting from foreign policies set in motion after the second world war. The place to begin to understand this history is with Owen Lattimore's book The Situation in Asia, written in service of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in the late 1940s. It would be great to read a Holland piece outlining the policy making process resulting in the terrible outcomes we witness today.

This process, based on the assumption that imperial control of the Third World was still feasible, and that the shift toward negotiation recommended by Lattimore was unnecessary, resulted in the consequences predicted by Lattimore. The situation is indeed out of imperial control. What we have is a ruling clsss without a real plan, desperate to create the opposite impression. What is needed is better leadership, but no one can lead unless supported by a strong base. This base cannot be found among those unwilling publicly to acknowledge their vast failures. This base must be the public at large.

For the public at large to form such a base of support, for Obama I should think, it must fully undersand what is at stake. This requires some serious history lessons. Josh, I implore you to take on this task.

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» since ww2 Posted by: e rice
» RE: since ww2 Posted by: joeunix
Oh, this is the big one! You hear that, Elizabeth?! I'm coming to join you, Honey!
Posted by: joeunix on Apr 5, 2008 9:53 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't believe it!

Do you mean to tell me that one--just one--Alternet writer has finally woken up to the truth?

So tell me, how long did it take you to discover that "our" political "system" is a sham?

A freakin' genius, aren't you?

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Anyone can criticize. Solving problems is a different matter.
Posted by: HughScott on Apr 5, 2008 9:55 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just wasted my time reading Holland's diatribe against Obama and Hillary. Having studied the Bush 43 administration since 2003, I learned nothing new from Holland. How about some SOLUTIONS for a change?

So tell me, Josh. How would you extract us from Iraq?

Hugh E. Scott, Vietnam vet, ex-USAF pilot, lifelong registered Republican, ARDENT Obama supporter and the author of George Dub-ya Bush, THE PHONY FIGHTER PILOT, published in 2004.

To read a sample chapter and learn about the only smoking-gun proof of White House corruption ever found on the Web, visit www.PhonyFighterPilot.com.

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American Foriegn Policy never, ever, changes.
Posted by: Ghoulman on Apr 5, 2008 10:15 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... how many times must I post this fact?

It's The Empire STUPID. Sheesh.

Of course Obama will not change anything in Iraq, he'll just use different language.

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Then do us all a favor and shut up and show your support for RALPH NADER !
Posted by: maxpayne on Apr 5, 2008 10:17 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He doesn't lie about Iraq and he's ready to fight to bring our troops home and end this miserable war for oil. Give him a chance DUDE !

http://www.votenader.org

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"No Spin" McCain
Posted by: radical53 on Apr 5, 2008 10:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I guess the message here is that Obama and Clinton have no intention of getting the troops out before the generals say so while McCain tells it like it is. Unfortunately, this assertion has no merit.

While it is true that McCain is a tool of the military industrial complex, it is not true that Obama will not try to get the troops out in about 16 months. I think Hillary is more likely to slip the schedule for withdrawal, but even she will try to get them out. Both Obama and Clinton recognize that Iraq is not South Korea or Germany or Japan. Trying to leave bases in Iraq is not a long-term option that any sane person would follow.

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» RE: "No Sense" McCain Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: "No Spin" McCain Posted by: impeachbushandcheneynow
Too late to bitch and moan
Posted by: peterjkraus on Apr 5, 2008 10:48 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why keep beating the same dead horse? As long as we citizens believe even the most insignificant bullhsit our teachers and politicians are so good at promulgating, nothing will change. Our brand of dog-eat-dog capitalism needs a docile population to function, and docile populations are by definition non-thinkers. Losing equity in that home? Worried about Britney´s latest career move? Ogling the 2009 Hummer? Go right ahead ans stick that little flag lapel pin on, dust off the made-in-China Support Our Troops sticker and keep on snoozing.

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» Well said! Posted by: joeunix
» RE: Too late to bitch and moan Posted by: BCcovers
Well Josh, if you think Obama's Iraq policy is bad, wait 'til you see his policy on Pakistan.
Posted by: joeunix on Apr 5, 2008 11:39 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Presidential hopefuls attack Obama's remarks about Pakistan.

From CNN we read:

"If we have actionable intelligence on al Qaeda operatives, including [Osama] bin Laden, and President Musharraf cannot act, then we should,' Obama said. 'That's just common sense.'"

From Reuters we read:

Tough talk on Pakistan from Obama.

"Obama said if elected in November 2008 he would be willing to attack inside Pakistan with or without approval from the Pakistani government, a move that would likely cause anxiety in the already troubled region.

The article continues,

"'If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will,' Obama said.."

Now you have two sources which verify Obama's intent to "attack inside Pakistan with or without approval from the Pakistani government".

And when he attacks Pakistan without the approval of the Pakistani government, he will become, by definition, a war criminal.

So perhaps Obama will remove "our" forces from Iraq, but he clearly intends to put them right smack dab into Pakistan with the intention of igniting another illegal war.

Wonderful, just wonderful.

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I remember when...
Posted by: Sojourner on Apr 5, 2008 11:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...we could not leave Vietnam. Not because it was strategically impossible, but because we were told that the situation there would be far worse if we left than if we stayed.

We will stay as long as we can get away with it. In the case of Vietnam, Nixon was elected because he has a plan to get us out of Vietnam. Instead, he stayed until the opposition had defeated our troops.

So what's different this time? Nothing, so far as I can see. Yes, Bush/Cheney went in more violently and have spent our $trillions building fortresses. Deja vu all over again. We have created the condition where there is no political solution.

As long as the political class can continue to stay rich, Americans will be sent around the world to die. Ergo, short of massive domestic non-violent resistance that disrupts our economy, business-as-usual.

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» RE: I remember when... Posted by: lenioui
an old story
Posted by: luzmejor on Apr 5, 2008 12:42 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Americans who wannabe rich like the candidates and their prosperity religion will fall for their line every time, just because they want to believe those pretty, political lies.

Well, deception, robbery and murder is the way we settled the New World in the first place and that is the nature of our wonderful nation.

The minute anyone realized I was an immigrant, nearly 50 years ago, I could see realtors attitude turn into one of greed. My entire family from Canada was treated as just some more sheep to be fleeced. I didn't realize their tactics came directly from the Republican playbook until the Richard Nixon debacle. Since then I can see that there is a clear division between the major parties in the matter of intent, but both sides are merely fighting each other over the rules of their "confidence" games.

We are all still going to be caught in the middle of the fracas. It's time to talk plainly with the candidates now and to hold them accountable later, for the entire time of their terms in office.

In the meantime, fight like hell for your freedom to communicate and spread the word!

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sucker Iran
Posted by: Ripcord on Apr 5, 2008 12:42 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
into taking over Iraq.

Giving East Germany to the Soviets eventually worked.
It still might work out with North Korea.
Vietnam survived the Japanese, the French, the Chinese, the Americans.
We gave Marcos a free hand in the Philippines and now they're fighting their own guerrilla wars.
After 50 years Okinawa reverted to Japan who had dominated them for centuries anyway.

And in 100 years Iraq may join the world community as a self-governed country.

Kucinich was the only Presidential candidate to figure this out.

My argument:
1. Preemptive wars are immoral.
2. They are costly.
3. Americans don't have the fortitude to endure war.

1. Apologize to the world.
2. Cut bait and run.
3. Heal our military.




Iraq will be Iraq, no matter who tries to dominate.
They'll either be dominated by an authoritarian foreign government or split into bickering warring tribes.

We just need to figure out how to give them a fair price for their oil. Exxon and Shell ought to be up to that.

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Playing the odds
Posted by: bluepilgrim on Apr 5, 2008 2:09 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's step back a few steps and look at the situation. The US is an empire, has been for some time, and is now declining. Yet, there are many who resist this, especially among the established wealthy, the powerful, and the people who believe in and like the idea of exceptionalism. A candidate who does not pander to them gets eliminated early.

McCain actively supports empire, so does CLinton, but less so, and neither one appears to recognize the reality. Obama, however does seem to understand the situation better, although not thoroughly -- yet you can find hints of his understanding when he speaks of corporate evils, and such, although he doesn't speak loudly about it. Who will solve the problems? McCain: hell, no -- he'll continue to take us backwards; Clinton: when pigs fly -- she is in the thick of it and profiting from it; Obama: probably not -- at least not in a first term, but he may work on them -- it depends on how far the swamp is drained.

The swamp? Yeah -- that's the American culture and structural power: imperialism, racism, greed, militarism, corruption, ignorance, mass media, legal system, political system, so on. Thinking any candidate can rise above the empire, be elected, and fix all this is not realistic -- it's like expecting someone in a clean white tux to rise from the muck in the middle of the swamp. That leaves a grass roots cultural revolution as the only way forward -- but if we manage that (a long shot) then we are better of with Obama as president than the other two. The chief danger with Obama is that he has a gift for blarney, so if he is really just another swamp rat it will be easier for him to deceive people, and that's something people have to learn to resist. He may, however, work to help -- but we won't know that until he is in office. He might not know that himself yet. It's a matter of playing the odds, and Obama gives us the best odds of not getting in the way, and maybe even helping -- maybe opening up some political space to work in, and staving off the worst of the destructive blunders which are threatening.

Would he really attack terrorists in Pakistan on actionable intelligence despite what Pakistan wants? Maybe -- maybe not -- but he had to say that to keep the swamp monsters happy. Likewise he has to placate the zionists (like Foxman): whether he supports them or not, he has to say it, and since the other two support zionism it's not a big political cost in comparison. Does he really support zionism? Maybe -- we can't know. Someone as skilled in bluffing as Obama can fool people. We know about McCain and Clinton from their longer records. We also know the war-mongers are supporting McCain and Clinton and attacking Obama, and that's a good sign that Obama is not quite as firmly in their pockets.

The bottom line is that Obama gives us the best chances -- it's like buying a current lottery ticket -- you MIGHT win (although probably not) but if you buy a ticket which has expired already then you KNOW you won't win. Or you decide not to buy a ticket -- which is like voting for a 3rd party or not at all -- you won't win but you have saved the cost of the ticket.

But in any case, we still have to drain the swamp or we all drown. No way around that.

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» Beautiful Posted by: Ripcord
Better Some If Not All
Posted by: Redphilly on Apr 5, 2008 2:49 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well maybe they won't get them all out but at least they will start removing some of them. McCain is saying I'm leaving the troops in and I don't care how you feel about it. He is being very arrogant because he thinks no one wants Hillary or Obama. Let's pick one.

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Not mentioned to date
Posted by: willymack on Apr 5, 2008 2:59 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Are the possible TRUE intentions of either Clinton or Obama after either is sworn in. What are their intentions for the bushies, for instance? Do either of them intend to let those scoundrels off scot-free? How about Iraq? Do either of them really want to keep up to 50,000 military personnel there as a residual force? Then there's health care. Do either of them intend to pull the rug out from underneath the insurance and drug companies, and go ahead with a true universal health care program like the UK or France? If either of them intend to do one or all these things after Jan 20th would they deem it prudent to tip their hand now? Just asking.

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Mr. Holland - A well-written and important article, thank you!
Posted by: LeftWright on Apr 5, 2008 6:41 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I could quibble with some of it and moan about some other things* left out, but I will choose not to (today, anyway ***big smile***).

[*they're outside the stated scope of the article anyway, and you only have so much space, yes?]

About the highest complement I can make is to tell you that I will be printing this article out and giving it to some of my most beloved (and misguided) supporters of Sen. Obama.

If I can find anyone around here who supports Sen. Clinton I will give it to them, too.

***bemused smile***

Pity this article isn't in a major U.S. paper or news magazine.

Having written long articles like this myself, I know how much time, energy and determination it takes and thank you again for the effort. Not to mention fighting with editors, but we don't need to talk about that unpleasantness, do we?

Hopefully, it will cause some to pause and think about the flaws in their choice in political outlaws.

[Channeling of my "inner rapper" now complete, sir!]

I hope that you and yours are well and I look forward to your next fine article (and while I could suggest a subject I will NOT spoil the moment ***wink***).

Cheers!

The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.

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"Bigger lie" of Joshua Holland,
Posted by: mhhensel on Apr 5, 2008 7:49 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Since Joshua Holland is using that rhetoric, I thought I would use it too. Let's see if Joshua thinks that's fair?

Perhaps Joshua thinks that Obama or Clinton can't do it.

I have heard questioners confront Obama with the question of how he was going to be able to end the US military involvement in Iraq, with the implication that it couldn't be done. Obama's answer was: "watch me".

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» More like Posted by: Joshua Holland
» "Watch me." Posted by: Blink
Hillary and Obama
Posted by: DaveT on Apr 5, 2008 7:51 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why do you keep referring to Ms Clinton as Hillary? You never refer to Mr Obama as Barack. This is like junior high where the teachers called boys by their last name and girls by their first names. This seems like sexism and an attempt (either deliberately or unintentionally) to belittle her as "just a girl".

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» RE: Hillary and Obama Posted by: Joshua Holland
» No need for a big debate ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
An unforseeable future
Posted by: scepticalobserver on Apr 5, 2008 9:33 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There can be no definitive statement from any candidate who is not privy to the counsel of the Pentagon and Intelligence services. ANY plan can and must be subject to circumstances which are currently beyond their control. Given the Bush administration's penchant for reckless behavior, we may find ourselves embroiled in a conflict with Iran before inauguration day and all plans will be moot
I want a statement outlining a philosophy of dealing with the problems in the Middle East not a campaign promise based on ignorance.

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oxheadone
Posted by: oxheadone on Apr 5, 2008 10:01 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The best way to end the Iraq disaster is to impeach Bush. Even if we are sure that the Senate will never vote to convict, the hearings should bring out into the open all of the illegal and immoral conspiracy to attack Iraq. Perhaps, under these circumstances of TV exposure, the public can rise up and demand an end to the war and the proper punishment of the guilty.

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» RE: oxheadone Posted by: Artra
What about a diagnosis of public opinion before making a decision?
Posted by: Artra on Apr 5, 2008 11:45 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Perhaps this is not new, but for a foreigner this polemic means an enormous advance. The question is how many people outside AlterNet think further than no More Irak and We are Sinking.
Why don't you make a poll? To see to which point you can effectively advance and with that majority, see what different alternatives you can build to redress for a change?
The main point is how to gather to a wider part of society, to which level goals.

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My starting assumption with voting
Posted by: DropTheOBomb on Apr 6, 2008 1:12 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
is that no one I would want to be in office has a snowball's chance in hell at getting there. I realized long ago that this country has been bought and sold already. The America you knew and loved is dead and gone and has been for a long time. It's sad, yes, but it's the reality. So stop expecting candidates that fit your idea of who should be in charge. They wont be. And, face it, even if by some miracle someone like Kucinich who looked like George Clooney could make it into the White House, he wouldn't be allowed to do the vast majority of the things he wanted to do, and if he really pushed the issue, he'd probably end up pissing off the wrong people and get himself assassinated.

So...It really comes down to the lesser of two (or in the current case three) evils. I'll take Obama. Is he the perfect candidate? NO. Is he probably going to end up doing the best he can with a system that is broke and rigged? I think so. At least he's a constitutional scholar and knows how to write and speak intelligently who doesn't think diplomacy is a sign of weakness and who wont appoint right wing supreme court judges. Sadly, that's about the most progress we can expect, ladies and gentlemen.

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Bush, Gates and 2009
Posted by: Col. Jackleg on Apr 6, 2008 3:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lost in all of the bullshit about which candidate will do what in Iraq is the reality that Bush and Gates are committing U.S. troops to an increased presence in Afghanistan in 2009. Gates says this should probably be left to the newly-elected President to determine under his foreign policy preferences but "there is very broad bipartisan support in the U.S...." In short, the Taliban, once supposedly routed, have regrouped and present a formidable opponent to whatever the hell is being pursued in that shithole. Quaere: Not one of the 3 stooges seeking the Presidency uttered even a brain fart on that notion and Joshua Holland is spot on in his assessment, in my words but not doubt in harmony with his feelings, that they are all full of shit and this madness is going to endure until Congress stops funding it. Will that happen? Of course not. Think feckless folks. There ain't a statesman among us and we are reaping what we have sown through our collective stupidity.

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» RE: Bush, Gates and 2009 Posted by: SkeeterVT1
» RE: Bush, Gates and 2009 Posted by: lenioui
Interesting times
Posted by: talkville on Apr 6, 2008 3:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The switch during the last couple of months from Iraq to the domestic issues like the economy, though understandable, was curiously complete and rather abrupt. Not so much a balancing of stories but more a substitution of fronts.

Especially in view of the close friendships and ties between Clintons and Bushes and the curious rapprochements of Clinton with such figures as Melon-Scaife and previously Rupert Murdoch (not so sure of the behind-the-scenes alliances of Obama), there seems to be an added dimension to this election year. It almost, although I can't prove it, appears as though in all the election activities going on THE Oligarchy is "circling the wagons" -- an Oligarchy (oh, say, of top 100 or so Families) consisting of Democrats, Republicans and most probably a few more unsavory political trends most assuredly of the Right-Wing variety.

When issues and ideas take sudden and interesting turns and twists, one can be sure that more transcendent and hierarchically superior forces are beginning to weigh into the fray. As I say, I can't prove it. It sure seems to me though that THE rich families may be having a "pow-wow" these days up there in those stratospheres. Seems only logical that many of them "have a Stake" in Iraq and they're holding those more public faces -- the Candidates--to increasingly stringent pronouncements about Foreign and Domestic issues near and dear to them.

Just a hunch.

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» Iraq is the Economic issue Posted by: Ripcord
Complete Iraq Pullout in a Year Is a Pipe Dream
Posted by: SkeeterVT1 on Apr 6, 2008 8:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's time for progressives -- and everyone else who firmly opposes the war in Iraq -- to face a cold, hard reality:

Bush has gotten us into Iraq far too deeply to realistically expect either Clinton or Obama to get us out of there in a year.

Like it or not, it's going to require a phased withdrawal from Iraq -- just as our exit from Vietnam was a phased withdrawal.

Lest we forget, it took Nixon FIVE YEARS to get us out of Vietnam. We had five times as many troops in Vietnam and in the Gulf region during the 1991 Gulf War than we have in Iraq now.

Patience is a virtue. When it comes to getting out of a messy war that the American people oppose, patience will be an absolute necessity.

There's no way that a withdrawal from Iraq is going to be accomplished in a year -- or 18 months. Like it or not, it's going to take no less than TWO YEARS to get us out of Iraq, no matter who is the next president.

Clinton and Obama both need to level with the American people and tell the truth: We're going to be stuck in Iraq until 2010 at the earliest.

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» RE: Complete Iraq Pullout in a Year Is a Pipe Dream Posted by: impeachbushandcheneynow
Oil and Israel
Posted by: milesd1 on Apr 6, 2008 11:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why is the media, including Afternet, so totally ignoring the the reasons candidate don't talk about totally getting out of Iraq? It's quite simple oil and Israel.If you don't see that then your doomed to be confused forever.

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Just Boycott the Election
Posted by: edgar_michel on Apr 6, 2008 12:59 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That would be the most poignant message that could ever be sent to the ruling class of this nation. Kinda of like a no confidence vote to the entire government. Lets say the turnout in Novemeber was something like 30%. Would the winner have any kind of mandate or legitimacy? Someone who is elected with less than 30% of the vote effectively wouldn't be able to govern, because the people of this country could argue that he or she doesn't represent the country, but rather only a fractional minority. Maybe that is the best approach rather that merely going through the motions because you feel it is patriotic to vote, even though you don't have a choice, is to just boycott the election.

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» RE: Just Boycott the Election Posted by: james_allen
» RE: Just Boycott the Election Posted by: animalleaderisgreat
Oil?
Posted by: kiwijohn on Apr 6, 2008 2:01 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Going back to basics, are there some reliable stats on how much oil the US is taking out of Iraq? Would loosing that source have an impact on the domestic gas prices?

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no one is speaking the truth, including alternet
Posted by: Missing Piece on Apr 6, 2008 9:43 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
FALSE FLAG to get us to support a
RESOURCE WAR because of
PEAK OIL.

Why won't Alternet talk about this.

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And like this is a surprise.
Posted by: estelevistaban on Apr 6, 2008 10:03 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Look, once George Bush got us into this mess -- all on his own hook and his own time -- getting out is going to be an exercise in finesse and juggling that will make Circe Soliel look easy. It's GWB's mess, and trying to blame his successor for dealing with it in some sort of sane way is unreasonable and irrational. Remember that name: George W. Bush. Got us in; buried us there; left us with no good options. George W. Bush. Not Hillary or Obama or even McCain. George W. Bush. His war. Our mess to clean up, once the (unprintable) is gone. I do not envy the person who gets the Oval Office in November, whoever that may be. George W. Bush. Remember that name!! And don't dump on the (hopefully rational) person who is left with GWB's disaster.

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Be careful what you wish for
Posted by: james_allen on Apr 7, 2008 11:46 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No matter how stupid the initial invasion of Iraq was, it is far from clear what the best course is now. Leaving Iraq to its civil war and possible attacks from its neighbors is hardly the way to world peace, or for respect for America.

This is why I judge candidates not by their future Iraq plans (all options being bad), but by their comments five years ago. (That the decision to invade was mistaken should have been obvious to anyone with access to good newspapers.)

It's hard to be optimistic about next 4 years regardless of who's President.

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The impact of materialism
Posted by: purereason on Apr 10, 2008 6:38 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the advancing civilization human consciousness gets conquered by the products of the civilization leading to the erosion of human sensibility. Human sensibility can be had only in relationship with life and its System, not with our systems as our systems lack one thing that is essential for the nurturing of the sensibility- life. Moreover, the civilization is in isolation of other societies in the world due to the takeover of all channels to consciousness by the instruments of materialism. The only time that is in contact with other societies is the time of conquest. The erosion of culture has adversely affected the very structure of the society in America.

"The worlds have deserted him who knows
the worlds in aught else than the Soul, …
Beings have deserted him who knows beings
in aught else than the Soul,
Everything has deserted him who knows
Everything in aught else than the Soul." (Brhadaranyaka Upanishad India)

Civilizations can retain culture only if they retain the sensibility for life.

"Lo. verily, not for the love of the husband is husband dear,
But for the love of the Soul a husband is dear,
Lo, verily, not for the love of the wife is wife dear,
But for the love of the soul a wife is dear,
Lo, verily, not for the love of the sons are sons dear,
But for the love of the Soul sons are dear ….
Lo, verily, not for the love of the beings are beings dear,
But for the love of the Soul beings are dear,
Lo, verily, not for the love of all is all dear,
But for the love of the Soul all is dear." (Brhadaranyaka Upanishad)

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Get A Grip
Posted by: bessie on Apr 11, 2008 12:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's no way that Senator Obama would be involved to do the status quo. Look to Rev. Wright - that's your clue. Hillary, on the other hand, with her huge financial gains from political connections might be the real status quo. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. What a stupid article. Let's just hope that we can get like minds to have America self-produce once again and protect the American people. There's no question about it all - we need an FDR type to come in and clean this mess up. But if most voters are really in denial about our ecomony, our future, our international status -including the value of the dollar - then, I guess, we will get what we deserve.

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obama never lies! WRIGHT!!!
Posted by: niliadis on Apr 12, 2008 2:50 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's a couple of them:
1.) Selma Got Me Born - LIAR, your parents felt safe enough to have you in 1961 - Selma had no effect on your birth, as Selma was in 1965.
2.) Father Was A Goat Herder - LIAR, he was a privileged, well educated youth, who went on to work with the Kenyan Government.
3.) Father Was A Proud Freedom Fighter - LIAR, he was part of one of the most corrupt and violent governments Kenya has ever had
4.) My Family Has Strong Ties To African Freedom - LIAR, your cousin Raila Odinga has created mass violence in attempting to overturn a legitimate election in 2007, in Kenya. It is the first widespread violence in decades.
5.) My Grandmother Has Always Been A Christian - LIAR, she does her daily Salat prayers at 5am according to her own interviews. Not to mention, Christianity wouldn’t allow her to have been one of 14 wives to 1 man.
6.) My Name is African Swahili - LIAR, your name is Arabic and ‘Baraka’ (from which Barack came) means ‘blessed’ in that language. Hussein is also Arabic and so is Obama.
7.) I Never Practiced Islam - LIAR, you practiced it daily at school, where you were registered as a Muslim and kept that faith for 31 years,until your wife made you change, so you could run for office.
8.) My School In Indonesia Was Christian - LIAR, you were registered as Muslim there and got in trouble in Koranic Studies for making faces (check your own book).
9.) I Was Fluent In Indonesian - LIAR, not one teacher says you could speak the language.
10.) Because I Lived In Indonesia, I Have More Foreign Experience - LIAR, you were there from the ages of 6 to 10, and couldn’t even speak the language. What did you learn, how to study the Koran and watch cartoons.
11.) I Am Stronger On Foreign Affairs - LIAR, except for Africa (surprise) and the Middle East (bigger surprise), you have never been anywhere else on the planet and thus have NO experience with our closest allies.
12.) I Blame My Early Drug Use On Ethnic Confusion - LIAR, you were quite content in high school to be Barry Obama, no mention of Kenya and no mention of struggle to identify - your classmates said you were just fine.
13.)An Ebony Article Moved Me To Run For Office - LIAR, Ebony has yet to find the article you mention in your book. It doesn’t, and never did, exist.
14.) A Life Magazine Article Changed My Outlook On Life - LIAR, Life has yet to find the article you mention in your book. It doesn’t, and never did, exist.
15.) I Won’t Run On A National Ticket In ‘08 - LIAR, here you are, despite saying, live on TV, that you would not have enough experience by then, and you are all about having experience first.
16.) Present Votes Are Common In Illinois - LIAR, they are common for YOU, but not many others have 130 NO VOTES.
17.) Oops, I Misvoted - LIAR, only when caught by church groups and democrats, did you beg to change your misvote.
18.) I Was A Professor Of Law - LIAR, you were a senior lecturer ON LEAVE.
19.) I Was A Constitutional Lawyer - LIAR, you were a senior lecturer ON LEAVE.
20.) Without Me, There Would Be No Ethics Bill - LIAR, you didn’t write it,introduce it, change it, or create it.
21.) The Ethics Bill Was Hard To Pass - LIAR, it took just 14 days from start to finish.
22.) I Wrote A Tough Nuclear Bill - LIAR, your bill was rejected by your own party for its pandering and lack of all regulation - mainly because of your Nuclear Donor, Exelon, from which David Axelrod came.
23.) I Have Released My State Records - LIAR, as of March, 2008, state bills you sponsored or voted for have yet to be released, exposing all the special interests pork hidden within.
24.) I Took On The Asbestos Altgeld Gardens Mess - LIAR, you were part of a large group of people who remedied Altgeld Gardens. You failed to mention anyone else but yourself, in your books.

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obama never lies! WRIGHT!!! continued
Posted by: niliadis on Apr 12, 2008 2:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
25.) My Economics Bill Will Help America - LIAR, your 111 economic policies were just combined into a proposal which lost 99-0, and even YOU voted against your own bill.
26.) I Have Been A Bold Leader In Illinois - LIAR, even your own supporters claim to have not seen BOLD action on your part.
27.) I Passed 26 Of My Own Bills In One Year - LIAR, they were not YOUR bills, but rather handed to you, after their creation by a fellow Senator, to assist you in a future bid for higher office.
28.) No One Contacted Canada About NAFTA - LIAR, the Candian Government issued the names and a memo of the conversation your campaign had with them.
29.) I Am Tough On Terrorism - LIAR, you missed the Iran Resolution vote on terrorism and your good friend Ali Abunimah supports the destruction of Israel.
30.) I Am Not Acting As President Yet - LIAR, after the NAFTA Memo, a dead terrorist in the FARC, in Colombia, was found with a letter stating how you and he were working together on getting FARC recognized officially.
31.) I Didn’t Run Ads In Florida - LIAR, you allowed national ads to run 8-12 times per day for two weeks - and you still lost.
32.) I Won Michigan - LIAR, no you didn’t.
33.) I won Nevada - LIAR, no you did not.
34.) I Want All Votes To Count - LIAR, you said let the delegates decide.
35.) I Want Americans To Decide - LIAR, you prefer caucuses that limit the vote, confuse the voters, force a public vote, and only operate during small windows of time.
36.) I passed 900 Bills in the State Senate - LIAR, you passed 26, most of which you didn’t write yourself.
37.) My Campaign Was Extorted By A Friend - LIAR, that friend is threatening to sue if you do not stop saying this. Obama has stopped saying this.
38.) I Believe In Fairness, Not Tactics - LIAR, you used tactics to eliminate Alice Palmer from running against you.
39.) I Don’t Take PAC Money - LIAR, you take loads of it.
40.) I don’t Have Lobbysists - LIAR, you have over 47 lobbyists, and counting.
41.) My Campaign Had Nothing To Do With The 1984 Ad - LIAR, your own campaign worker made the ad on his Apple in one afternoon.
42.) My Campaign Never Took Over MySpace - LIAR, Tom, who started MySpace issued a warning about this advertising to MySpace clients.
43.) I Inspire People With My Words - LIAR, you inspire people with other people’s words.
44.) I Have Passed Bills In The U.S. Senate - LIAR, you have passed A BILL in the U.S. Senate - for Africa, which shows YOUR priorities.
45.) I Have Always Been Against Iraq - LIAR, you weren’t in office to vote against it AND you have voted to fund it every single time, unlike Kucinich, who seems to be out gutting you Obama. You also seem to be stepping back from your departure date - AGAIN.
46.) I Have Always Supported Universal Health Care - LIAR, your plan leaves us all to pay the 15,000,000 who don’t have to buy it.
47.) I Only Found Out About My Investment Conflicts Via Mail - LIAR, both companies you site as having sent you letters about this conflict have no record of any such letter ever being created or sent.
48.) I Am As Patriotic As Anyone - LIAR, you won’t wear a flag pin and you don’t put your hand over your heart during the Anthem.
49.) My Wife Didn’t Mean What She Said About Pride In Country - LIAR, your wife’s words follow lock-step in the vein of Wright and Farrahkan, in relation to their contempt and hatred of America.
50.) Wal-Mart Is A Company I Wouldn’t Support - LIAR, your wife has received nearly a quater of a million dollars through Treehouse, which is connected to Wal-Mart.
51.) Treehouse Is A Small Company - LIAR, the CEO of Treehouse last year, made more than the CEO of Wal-Mart, according to public records.

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obama never lies! WRIGHT!!! continued
Posted by: niliadis on Apr 12, 2008 2:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
52.) University Of Chicago Hospital Pay Is Fair - LIAR, your wife’s pay raise was nearly 150% her already bloated rate and the hospital is a Non-Profit Hospital, which made $100,000,000 in the last 3 years. They overcharge blacks VS whites for services, and overcharge everyone in general by 538%!
53.)I Barely Know Rezko - Only 5 Billed Hours - LIAR, you have known him for 17 years, and decided to do a real estate deal with him during a time when he was proven to be under investigation. Despite this, you divided your property and had them take off $300K before the mortgage problems started. Then Rezko’s wife buys the lot beside it that you can’t afford, saving you $625,000.
54.) My Donations Have Been Checked Thoroughly - LIAR, you only gave back Hsu ($72K) and Rezko (first $66K, then when caught lying $86K, then when caught lying again $150K and now caught lying YET AGAIN OBAMA, it’s $250k) their money when publically called on their involvement in your campaigns.
55.) My Church Is Like Any Other Christian Church - LIAR, your church is so extreme, the pastor who married you, Rev. Wright, just got done blaming the US for 9/11 and named Louis Farrahkan their person of the year.
56.) I Disagree With My Church All The Time - LIAR, you still have yet to repudiate Wright, who married you and your wife, and you still donate large sums of money to assist the church in furthering its message - hatred and revenge. You donated in 2006 alone, $22,500 to the church that you so terribly disagree with. That is nearly $500 PER WEEK - that sure is disagreement, Senator Obama.
57.) I Have Clean Connections Despite Rezko - LIAR, you are not only connected to Exelon and Rezko, you are also connected to Hillary PAC supporter Mr. Hsu, AND an Iraqi Billionaire of ill repute, Nadhmi Auchi, who ripped off people in the Food For Oil, Iraqi deal. Seems Mr. Auchi may have helped Obama buy his million dollar property long before Obama had millions of dollars. Wonder what favors Mr. Auchi expects, when Obama leaves Iraq free to be taken over by special interests such as him.
58.) I never heard sermons like Rev. Wright’s, that have been in videos all day, You Tube - LIAR! 3 days later during your Mea Culpa BS speech you said “Did I hear controversial statements while I sat in that church? Yes I did.”
59.) The Passport Invasion is a conspiracy to find dirt on me! - LIAR. Your own Campaign Foreign Policy Advisor is the CEO of the company that looked into your records. PS - You had them look into yours to hide the fact you looked into Clinton’s and McCain’s more than a year before!
60.) Rev. Meeks has nothing to do with my campaigning - LIAR. Rev. Meeks appeared in ads for your Senate Campaign, donated to you, and helped raise money, then AND NOW. PS - He also seems to despise America.
61.) My wife didn’t mean America is ignorant, she was just using a phrase - LIAR. Again, MicHELLe’s comments perfectly sync with Wright’s, Meeks’, and Farrakhans, both in language, anger, and direction.
62.) I am very Anti-Terror - LIAR. [03/30/2008] One of your good pals is long time radical and terrorist William Ayers, with whom you have been seen in the last 12 months and who has helped the now jailed khalidi, Professor at Columbia who invited Ahmadinejad to the University, to raise money for Palestinian terrorism attacks against Israel. PS - Your church published a pro Hamas Manifesto - guess you weren’t there on THAT Sunday either? How lucky for you.

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obama never lies! WRIGHT!!! continued
Posted by: niliadis on Apr 12, 2008 2:54 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
63.) I have the best plan to cure the Mortgage Crisis - LIAR. [03/30/2008] You and your campaign buddy Penny SubPrime Bank Collapse Prizker have had your little fingers full of subprime cash - Obama has taken $1,180,103 from the top issuers of subprime loans: Obama received $266,907 from Lehman, $5395 from GMAC, $150,850 from Credit Suisse First Boston, $11,250 from Countrywide, $9052 from Washington Mutual, $161,850 from Citigroup, $4600 from CBASS, $170,050 from Morgan Stanley, $1150 from Centex, and last but certainly NOT LEAST - Obama received $351,900 from Goldman Sachs. I am sure that cash all came from folks who knew the subprime loan they had was a dream, eh?
64) I played greater role in crafting liberal stands on gun control, the death penalty and abortion - LIAR - [03/31/2008] It was found that Obama — the day after sitting for the interview — filed an amended version of the questionnaire, which appears to contain Obama’s own handwritten notes added to one answer. Read Obama had greater role on liberal survey
65) I did NOT play the race card: - LIAR - [03/31/2008] Obama was the first to play the race card. According to Phialdelphia Inquirer, Quietly, the storm over the hateful views expressed by Sen. Barack Obama’s pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, has blown away the most insidious myth of the Democratic primary campaign. Obama and his surrogates have charged that Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton has deliberately and cleverly played the race card in order to label Obama the “black” candidate. Read more here
66) I did not take money from oil companies: - LIAR - [03/31/2008]
THE FACTS: True enough, Obama does not take money from oil companies. No candidate does. It is illegal for corporations to give money to politicians. Corporations, however, do have political action committees that collect voluntary donations from employees and then donate them to candidates. Obama doesn’t take money from PACs. He also doesn’t take money from lobbyists.
But he does accept money from executives and other employees of oil companies and two of his fundraisers are oil company executives. As of Feb. 29, Obama’s presidential campaign had received nearly $214,000 from oil and gas industry employees and their families, according to an analysis by the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics. Clinton had received nearly $307,000 from industry workers and their families and Republican Sen. John McCain, the likely GOP presidential nominee, received nearly $394,000, according to the center’s totals.
Two of Obama’s fundraisers are Robert Cavnar, the chairman and chief executive of Houston-based Mission Resources Corp., and George Kaiser, the president and CEO of Tulsa-based Kaiser-Francis Oil Co. Source: Associated press via Yahoo News
This is the LAUNDRY LIST OF LIES. Updated to reflect new dishonesties.

And now! News another friend of Obama's William Wright-a undergrown radical terrorist!

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