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Election 2008

More Than Historical Stupidity in Paul's Slavery Crack

By Earl Ofari Hutchinson, New America Media. Posted December 27, 2007.


Ron Paul tossed out yet another juicy zinger this time on "Meet the Press" when he said that Lincoln was a bad guy for fighting the civil war.
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No shot GOP presidential candidate Ron Paul tossed out yet another juicy zinger this time on "Meet the Press" when he said that Lincoln was a bad guy for fighting the civil war. Paul's solution: simply shell out some cash, buy the slaves, and set them free. One would like to believe that Paul is just jerking off the press and the public with his shoot from the lip, loose brained, solutions on everything from taxes to ending the Iraq war. And that his dig at Lincoln for fighting the Civil War is the latest in the train of dumb wit Paulisms.

But the Civil War and the Lincoln jibe needs a response for two reasons. The first is for its idiot read of history.

Lincoln as an Illinois Congressman in 1849 proposed a bill for voluntary and gradual emancipation of the slaves in the District of Columbia. Lincoln toyed with the idea of offering compensation to get the slavemasters to go along with it. Congress dominated by Southerners and the slave owners showed absolutely no interest in taking a government bribe to give up their slaves in D.C. Lincoln didn't give up the idea.

In 1861, Lincoln, now president, dangled the carrot of federal dollars in front of the slaveowners in the Border States. He'd pay them $400 per slave to free them. There were no takers. The next year, Lincoln, even arm twisted Congress to pass a resolution providing for paynment to the slaveowners in the Border States and elsewhere. That went nowhere too.

The slave masters understood something that Paul doesn't. Slavery was not an aberrant, patchwork system that consigned a few million luckless blacks to hard, unpaid labor. Slavery was a cornerstone of the Southern economy. It wove personal lifestyle, custom, and comfort together for the benefit of the slave owners. Slavery was slyly encoded in articles in the Constitution, protected by court decisions, and bolstered by the full force of federal law (the enforement of the fugitive slave law). Lincoln had a better chance of dismantling slavery with dollars than Paul has of winning the White House.

The other more compelling reason to take on Paul's dumb crack is that while the North may have won the war, the South won the peace. No other region has so dominated national politics -- the military, the courts, Congress, the White House -- as the South.

It retooled slavery into a iron clad sytem of Jim Crow segregation, economic domination, and state government sanctioned violence to maintain power. No amount of money could have changed that.

The South maintained political dominance for nearly century after the end of slavery by forcing every Democrat or Republican that wanted to bag or stay in the White House to do and say as little as possible about race and racism, slavishly adhere to states rights, and pander to Southern politicians.

When the civil rights movement momentarily changed this neat political formula white Southern Democrats simply swapped their Democratic political pin for a Republican one. In the eyes of many white Southerners, the Democratic Party became the hated symbol of integration and civil rights.

The big break came with Republican Barry Goldwater's presidential bid in 1964. Southern politicians adroitly read the political tea leaves, stumped for Goldwater and urged Southern Democrats to do the same. In the process, he dropped the racially inflammatory rhetoric that had long been his and other Southern politicians' stock in trade. This ignited the first big exodus of Southern whites from the Democratic Party into the Republican Party.

The stampede got even bigger in 1968. President Nixon formally crafted the "Southern Strategy." That strategy became the anchor of Republican politics in the South. In the years to come, Republican Presidents Ronald Reagan and the elder Bush also made masterful use of Nixon's Southern Strategy to win elections and tighten the Republican grip on the South.

President Bush, like Paul a fellow Texan, benefited as much if not more than any other politician from the Southern Strategy. In the 2000 presidential election, he snatched the electoral votes of all the states of the Old Confederacy. Without the granite-like backing of these states, Democratic presidential contender Al Gore would have easily won the White House, and the Florida vote debacle would have been a meaningless sideshow. He swept the 11 old slave states again in 2004.

By whopping margins, white males provided the cushy margin of victory in these states. No amount of federal dollars would have changed the white Southern mindset toward the Democrats. They were still seen as liberal, big government, tax and spend social tinkers, especially on racial matters.

Millions in the South and elsewhere agree with Paul that the legacy of slavery has ruined the nation. If they could turn the clock back a century and a half they'd do just what Paul says and would not shed one drop of blood to free the slaves. Worse, they wouldn't spend a penny to free them either. My suspicion is that neither would anti-big government, abolish taxes Paul. Lincoln are you listening?

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See more stories tagged with: civil war, slavery, election08, ron paul

Earl Ofari Hutchinson is an author and political analyst. His new book is The Latino Challenge to Black America: Towards a Conversation between African-Americans and Hispanics (Middle Passage Press and Hispanic Economics New York).

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???
Posted by: andyp2000 on Dec 27, 2007 9:06 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sir,
considering that Lincoln himself said that if he could save the Union by not freeing slaves, he would do it, it seems to me that the Civil war was not fought because of slavery. It was fought because the South decided to secede.
Actually this interpretation seems to be widely accepted, it was used by people trying to criticize Paul for this particular opinion. BTW: I have read at some place that the juries in the south were already refusing to convict people hiding fugitive slaves. It is very likely that slavery would have been out-phased within next 50 years and maybe the racist effects would have been much smaller.

It seems to me rather weird criticizing Paul by telling him that the people had to die to abolish slavery when the war was not fought because of slavery...

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» RE: ??? Posted by: brunowe
» Counter-reality, not amnesia Posted by: Everitt
» RE: ??? Posted by: goeswithness
» RE: ??? Posted by: Thucy
» Just another apologist Posted by: TruthBeTold
» RE: ??? Posted by: newtype_alpha
» Secession rather than abolition Posted by: whatzaname
» What's he (Paul) got to hide? Posted by: jonnymil
One of the worst presidents ever
Posted by: Bubba3000 on Dec 27, 2007 9:10 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lincoln was a very bad president for numerous reasons. If you care to read some truth on him go to Abe and the issue of race. In 1858 Abe said "I have no purpose directly or indirectly to interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so." Abe also said "...I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race." Please don't give me that "Great Emancipator" line. President Lincoln suspended the writ of habeas corpus without consulting Congress. President Lincoln even went so far as to jail certain pro-South members of the state legislature at Fort McHenry including the grandson of Francis Scott Key. The only president that is worse than Lincoln is George W. Bush. The war was not fought over slavery. Yes, that was one reason but not the only one. Read history. War is never fought over one issue and the war between the states was not fought to free the slaves. Less than 10% of Confederate soldiers owned slaves. No slaves were ever carried on a ship that flew the Confederate flag. Jefferson Davis unlike numerous other slave owners, allowed slaves to hold their own courts and set their own punishments. Jefferson Davis believed that gradual emancipation, at some time in the future, would come for the Africans.

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So you suggest that a war was a good decision?
Posted by: rustle on Dec 27, 2007 9:18 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
An interesting rant on the side effects of racism and slavery, however, you did not address the issues that Dr. Paul was refering to:
1) Is war an acceptable solution for policy change?
2)Lincoln was fighting the original intent of the republic with the civil war.

I could go on about how Lincoln never really intended to free slaves, despite what your highschool history class may have taught you,but it looks like my counter parts have beat me to the punch.

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» This one was Posted by: brunowe
» RE: This one was Posted by: fuzzywzhe1
» RE: This one was Posted by: brunowe
» RE: This one was Posted by: fuzzywzhe1
» RE: This one was Posted by: brunowe
Abraham Lincoln did what?
Posted by: wbalogh on Dec 27, 2007 9:20 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The civil war wasn't about slavery. At least, that's not what I was taught in history class in grade school. The Civil War was about state's rights. Lincoln instituted the government that we have today: Rule by the Northern Elite Class.

Lincoln created the first non-commodity based currency referred to as "Greenbacks." Legal Tender not backed by gold or silver.

He used this currency to wage the civil war. This fiat currency would proliferate and ruin our monetary system and economy as the government now had the power of unlimited credit to wage wars.

It's a shame how millions of Americans think that slavery is what stains our country while the "not-genocide" but killing of the indigenous people of this continent (Native Americans), led by Andrew Jackson, goes undiscussed.

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» RE: Abraham Lincoln did what? Posted by: friedyams
Was there two Meet the Press shows aired?
Posted by: mt3355 on Dec 27, 2007 9:33 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your take on Ron Paul's comments only shows that the writer's stupidity is only surpassed by those who pay him to write it.
Did anyone check the facts or even watch the show?
If you think the Civil War was a good thing, God help us because Paul will never get elected if that type of stupidity is that rampant.
Anytime 600000 lives are lost, no one was right.
Please don't take this as an attack on the writer, It's only my opinion.

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» Prophit, here's why Posted by: 2dogarage
» The lesser evil Posted by: Lesha
Ron Paul is the epitome of white patriarchal supremacy
Posted by: peacelf on Dec 27, 2007 9:41 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anyone who thinks the market can solve all problems is not only a free market fundamentalist, but a white supremacist patriarch.

Ron Paul can speak the language of free market fundamentalism deeply satisfied that his white male brethren will continue to benefit from white male dominance both politically and economically. Because, Ron Paul has not listened to the voices of "others."

Ron Paul never mentions race or gender politics because he believes the american system is meritocratic, rather than biased in favor of white males.

Indeed, his white male liberal supporters surely agree, because they lack the empathy towards and consciousness of "others." They think Ron Paul's anti-war stance translates into 'Paul cares about Iraqis,' when in fact he cares about free market fundamentalism, not people.

As for Lincoln and Mr. Hutchinson's analysis of the Civil War president, I find it interesting that many African Americans lionize Lincoln, while perpetual (usually white male) critics of all things see Lincoln as a politcally expedient president, who only made slavery an issue when it was convenient. Who do we listen to?

peace

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» ahem.... Posted by: PaulC
» RE: ahem.... Posted by: peacelf
» RE: ahem.... Posted by: fraterm
» RE: ahem....You're right! Posted by: peacelf
» RE: ahem....You're right! Posted by: fraterm
» Best Option Posted by: Lesha
» RE: I'm not hatin' Posted by: peacelf
Alternet comments- lock-step on the right?
Posted by: mcubed on Dec 27, 2007 9:42 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wow. It's interesting that the comments so far on this article seem to be in lock-step in promoting the idea that the Civil War was somehow only about State's Rights.

Is this an organized effort?
It's kind of bizarre.

Michele

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» a bit of honesty here Posted by: PaulC
» RE: yes! Posted by: johngary66
Earl Hutchinson should read DiLorenzo, Thomas J., "The Real Lincoln "
Posted by: pdimon on Dec 27, 2007 9:45 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ron Paul is right on. Earl Hutchinson should read DiLorenzo, Thomas J., "The Real Lincoln ". In addition to the following links,

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig2/w-williams1.html
http://www.mises.org/article.aspx?Id=671&month=32

At no time and at no place was it possible for enterprises employing servile labor to compete on the market with enterprises employing free labor. Servile labor could always be utilized only where it did not have to meet the competition of free labor.
Ludwig Von Mises

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The American faultline
Posted by: Everitt on Dec 27, 2007 9:49 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've read copiously on Lincoln, and while the personal motivations of the man can never truly be known, one thing is certain, the Civil War WAS about slavery. Years of anti-slavery rhetoric had made Lincoln one of the most prominent symbols of abolition. So much so that even though (as these other posters pointed out) he toned down his rhetoric when it looked like he had a chance of achieving the presidency, the Southern states were already threatening to secede.

This huge and consistent dishonesty that many revisionists try to perpetrate is really telling about human nature. Even the "state's rights" argument is a cold-blooded case of moral dishonesty. Its the equivalent of saying I can beat my children within an inch of their life because its my children and I did it in my house. Its really defending the indefensible.

That's why I agree with Paul Krugman that race is the true political and social fault line of this country. A country of people that derives so much of their self esteem from the idea of its moral superiority has to face the truly horrific legacy of slavery and its aftermath.

That's where you get all these bizarre justifications and historic revisionism. I think its also where you get a lot of the current racial backlash - an allergic reaction to guilt.

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You don't get it
Posted by: San Diego Thinker on Dec 27, 2007 9:53 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Paul was not suggesting that the federal government buy out the slaves at $400 each, or through any other "package deal".

The idea is that individuals interested in freeing slaves would organize and go to one slaveowner at a time making them offers they could not refuse. For a given plantation owner, there is a price at which he would sell one, half or all of his slaves. That's just business. It would take time, but it would be peaceful, and, ultimately, less costly than the civil war. Since importing of new slaves ended about 100 years earlier, it would be a process of attrition, as long as the buying for freedom efforts exceeded the birthrate of new slaves.

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» RE: What a BIZARRE argument!!! Posted by: San Diego Thinker
» utterly idiotic Posted by: PaulC
» Still missing the point Posted by: San Diego Thinker
» RE: What a BIZARRE argument!!! Posted by: miamiballoonguy1
» Zzzzzzz Posted by: PaulC
» "It would take time" Posted by: EKSwitaj
ron paul - answered a question
Posted by: anconinn on Dec 27, 2007 10:01 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I keep seeing the media hammer Ron for answering a quesion on meet the press. He was asked, he answered - what Lincoln did a hundred years ago is not the main thrust of his message or campaign. The simple fact of the matter is the civil war is a complicated event and obviously the political solution chosen - war - is not exactly what anyone would want ever - it did result in a stronger federal government and it did set us up for a situation where Washington dicates to the states. That was not the intent of the republic.

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In That Case...
Posted by: saxmanager on Dec 27, 2007 10:04 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...why was slavery abolished in every major country before it was abolished in the United States without a civil war? I think that saving 600,000 Amercian lives by avoiding war is a noble cause, especially if the objective of ending slavery is achieved.

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Abraham Lincoln was a white supremest part 1
Posted by: smoke.stack on Dec 27, 2007 10:06 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
DO NOT LET THEM TELL YOU THAT "LINCOLN FREED THE SLAVES!!"I

www.nps.gov/liho/debate4.htm

“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races
- that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.”
Mr. Lincoln’s Speech, Fourth Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Charleston, Illinois,
” September 18, 1858
www.douglassarchives.org/linc_a89.htm

“Mr. Jefferson did not mean to say, nor do I, that the power of emancipation is in the Federal Government. He spoke of Virginia; and, as to the power of emancipation, I speak of the slaveholding States only. The Federal Government, however, as we insist, has the power of restraining the extension of the institution — the power to insure that a slave insurrection shall never occur on any American soil which is now free from slavery. ”
Abraham Lincoln, “Cooper Institute Address,” 27 February 1860
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corwin_amendment
www.geocities.com/ghostamendment
The Corwin amendment
uS House of Representatives, 28 February 1861
uS Senate, Adopted Adopted March 2, 1861

No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State.
www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/presiden/inaug/lincoln1.htm

I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.
I understand a proposed amendment to the Constitution–which amendment, however, I have not seen–has passed Congress, to the effect that the Federal Government shall never interfere with the domestic institutions of the States, including that of persons held to service. To avoid misconstruction of what I have said, I depart from my purpose not to speak of particular amendments so far as to say that, holding such a provision to now be implied constitutional law, I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable.
First Inaugural Address of Abraham Lincoln, Monday, March 4, 1861
www.classicallibrary.org/lincoln/greeley.htm

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Abraham Lincoln was a white supremest part 2
Posted by: smoke.stack on Dec 27, 2007 10:06 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
“My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause.”
Lincoln’s Letter to Horace Greeley, Executive Mansion, Washington, August 22, 1862
www.geocities.com/presidentialspeeches/1862.htm

“I cannot make it better known than it already is that I strongly favor colonization.”
Abraham Lincoln’, 2nd Annual Message, December 1,1862, Washington, DC

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All he is saying is...
Posted by: James W. Harris on Dec 27, 2007 10:11 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All Ron Paul is saying is, “Give peace a chance.”

Ron Paul’s presidential race and congressional career are characterized by his love of peace, his hatred of war, and his profound devotion to civil liberties and the Bill of Rights.

It is therefore completely understandable that he would want problems like slavery to be solved by ways other than the horrors of all-out war and the creation of a near-totalitarian federal state.

It is a testament to his intellectual courage that he would say this on a major television show. Any other politicians, whatever they thought, would have heaped praise upon Lincoln, who has become enshrined as a kind of American Christ.

Agree or disagree, there is a respectable minority historical viewpoint that the Civil War could have been avoided; that it was not motivated as much as commonly thought by a hatred of slavery, but rather driven at least in part by partisans political and economic considerations; and that Lincoln was actually a kind of America dictator, who suspended habeas corpus and in other ways wreaked havoc upon American civil liberties.

Don’t Progressives hate suspension of civil liberties and habeas corpus? Don’t they hate war and conscription? Wouldn’t we rather at least have SERIOUSLY TRIED to end slavery by peaceful means instead of the military enslavement of millions, and the tragic deaths of 600,000 Americans and the maiming of God knows how many more, and the utter desolation of large parts of the country?

Tim Russert was on a mission to destroy Ron Paul. Watch the show. It was a hit job. Paul showed great courage in standing up for his positions.

And remember: it is Ron Paul who is calling for ending the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, ending the worldwide American Empire, halting torture, repealing the Patriot Act and other police state legislation, ending the Drug War tyranny, and restoring and defending our Civil Liberties.

We should remember Paul’s position on these most crucial of today’s issues. Whether or not Paul was right in wishing the US had found a way to avoid a savage and tragic civil war 150 years ago certainly takes a back seat to that.

And I think it is wonderful to have a candidate who actually takes peace and freedom this seriously.

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» RE: All he is saying is... Posted by: brunowe
» RE: All he is saying is... Posted by: yellow
» RE: All he is saying is... Posted by: xvictor
» RE: All he is saying is... Posted by: xvictor
In Other Words, Paul = Lincoln?
Posted by: TheVich on Dec 27, 2007 10:13 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sir, the article you have written seems confused. On one hand, you call Ron Paul's non-violent method of emancipation stupid, then speak favorably of Abraham Lincoln who was attempting to eliminate slavery with the same method as was suggested by Ron Paul.
Was Lincoln an idiot for attempting peaceful emancipation? I don't think so.

There is little reason that Lincoln would have resorted to war to free slaves but for secession. Had southern states not seceded, he likely would have sought peaceful emancipation, as he had advocated in prior years. To paraphrase your comments, Lincoln would not and did not shed a drop of blood to free slaves. However, he shed other people's blood to ensure that all political power would be subservient to Washington, D.C.

Further, Ron Paul offered one option of many as to how to emancipate the slaves. That one option was tried before and did not work out before 1860 does not mean that killing 600,000 Americans was necessary to end that evil institution. Other than Haiti, slavery was ended peacefully everywhere else in the west. And as you mentioned, the South "won the peace" after the war and blacks were scapegoated, much thanks to the destruction wrought by the war.

So, hundreds of thousands of Americans died so my ancestors could be terrorized by defeated southerners. They were also left with desolate economic conditions of which they were sure to be the worst sufferers.

Well, you said it, Mr. Hutchinson: When there is a problem, war is and was definitely the answer. Anyone suggesting otherwise is obviously as "dumb wit". :-/

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History
Posted by: literature on Dec 27, 2007 10:30 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Perhaps the writer should really read a nonstatist history book before writing about something that the writer of this piece obviously has no history knowledge whatsoever.

Writers of pieces like this really give literature and reporting a bad name with soundbites and prolific and profuse emesis of water cooler talk, rather than real discussions.

However, that being said, I totally respect this writers freedom of speech and encourage this writer to learn and read so that s/he may become a more educated person and support the constitution and people like Ron Paul so writers can continue to write whatever the heck they want.

Go Ron Paul.
be positive and learn about Austrian economics

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States' Rights
Posted by: wbalogh on Dec 27, 2007 10:39 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There were no comments yet when I started writing mine, and then all of a sudden, WHOOSH! :)

I was taught (in grade school) that slavery was the moral issue behind the political motivation for the North to take control of the country. The anti-slavery politicians could not get a majority vote in Congress to amend the constitution to abolish slavery, and the "Northern Ruling Class" didn't like it, so Lincoln built and fortified military installments (forts) in the South and pushed the Northern political agenda.

The South got fed up with assaults on their states' rights and on their political control of congress, seceded from the Union and attacked Fort Sumter.

In my opinion, abortion will be the next States' Rights issue to cause a civil war if Roe Vs. Wade is overturned without and amendment to the US Constitution that abolishes abortion, as some states will become "abortion states" and others will not; thus, creating another moral divide.

I am a veteran against slavery, the death penalty, and against abortion of viable fetuses, as slaves, prisoners and fetuses are distinct, human entities with inalienable rights.

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» RE: States' Rights Posted by: Thucy
Civil War dead
Posted by: edw987 on Dec 27, 2007 10:56 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When you have a million dead that is a lot of people especially in 1865. Many more suffered. Then you had a lot of friction between North and South for a hundred years and still do today. Wouldn't it seem that this issue could have been resolved peacefully and in a timely manner just as was did in other countries?

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» RE: Civil War dead Posted by: whatzaname
How the rest of the world ended slavery
Posted by: gorak on Dec 27, 2007 11:05 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You should read some history, France and Britain both ended slavery in their empires by paying off the slave owners. This method was used around the world as the Industrial Revolution made slavery economically obsolete. Slavery is a legacy of the pre-capitalist world when labor was still bound to lord and production came from his land. The free market and the machines, not the abolitionists, did away with slavery as an institution.


And Paul is not for "abolishing taxes", he is for some levies and obviously if Tim Russert asked a follow up like, "would you have raised taxes in order to pay for the compensation", he would probably have said yes.

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» How the US ended slavery Posted by: PaulC
Great Emancipator?
Posted by: alugwin on Dec 27, 2007 11:13 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't think anyone even mentioned the fact that Mr. Lincoln never freed a single slave. Yes, yes, he gave that all famous speech call the emancipation proclamation, but I'd like to remind everyone that it only freed slaves in the states of rebellion, of which Lincoln had no control, because he started a war with them. It took 3 separate amendments to the constitution and the supreme court to end slavery. all Lincoln did was start a war with his fellow countrymen. Unfortunately for Lincoln he was handed a bad circumstance, 3 presidents before him ignored the cries of the country concerning slavery, the south seceded shortly after Lincoln became president, because they were losing power in the federal government. This came about by multiple acts of congress trying to prohibit the expanse of southern ideology, culture, and politics. I can not defend slavery, but I know one thing, the political trend in the south was tending towards giving more rights and freedom to blacks, before secession occurred. The War of Northern Aggression halted the progress of this trend by demonizing blacks around the country, not just in the south.
Countless people will tell you, you can't be set free, you have to set yourself free, we stopped that for the black people in this country, and have helped keep them a marginalized culture in our society.

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» RE: Great Emancipator! Yes Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Great Emancipator! um...not Posted by: undrgrndgirl
Abraham Lincoln - Our First Full-Fledged Military Dictator
Posted by: smsc on Dec 27, 2007 11:45 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree with many of the comments here that the author is woefully misinformed about history and economics.

Criticizing Lincoln's unnecessary war is NOT the moral equivalent of defending slavery. The Emancipation Proclamation was a cynical ploy to keep England from coming in on the side of the Confederacy.

Of course, if you want to go on worshipping the bloodthirsty, warmongering, racist tyrant aka "The Great Emancipator" go right ahead.

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Another Ron Paul smear
Posted by: Reader11722 on Dec 27, 2007 12:31 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Can you smell the fear these yellow journalists have for Ron Paul? The public realizes that the 2-party system is false. Unfortunately it took segregationist Governor Wallace to reveal the truth that "there's not a dime's worth of difference between" Republicans and Democrats. The Democrats willingly went along with the War in Iraq, suspension of Habeas Corpus, detaining protesters, banning books like America Deceived (book) from Amazon, stealing private lands (Kelo decision), warrant-less wiretapping and refusing to investigate 9/11 properly. They are both guilty of treason.
Support Dr. Ron Paul and save this great nation.

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» A simple question ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» name calling Posted by: undrgrndgirl
Writers Are Going to Vote for Ron Paul
Posted by: BFF on Dec 27, 2007 1:01 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, once again, a writer discovers that Ron Paul has voters. And once again, a writer realizes that if they don't vote for Ron Paul, the mobs of Ron Paul supporters will stop coming to their website. So, if you're an editor and are watching the Ron Paul bump... let's try to make the Ron Paul message a bit more positive. You enjoy us visiting your site, right? When he wins... it will last all through 2008.

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Why South Carolina Seceded
Posted by: wootendw on Dec 27, 2007 1:05 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lincoln had no intention of ending slavery when he became president and South Carolina, the first state to secede, did not do so because of slavery. South Carolina threatened to secede in 1832 during the administration of Andrew Jackson - a slave state president - because of a protective tariff that the southern states, especially SC, were opposed to. Lincoln was a supporter of protective tariffs and promised one during his campaign. This - not slavery - was the main reason for secession.

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» RE: Why South Carolina Seceded Posted by: Bartleby1701
Give me a break Earl
Posted by: richardsh on Dec 27, 2007 1:37 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Earl Ofari Hutchinson is the local equivalent to Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton. He is a local "black leader" in Los Angeles. In his mind, the civil war was the right thing to do because it ultimately did get rid of slavery. He can't see past that. So what if 600,000 people died in the process? His response to Ron Paul is a knee jerk reaction and completely predictable.

I think that actually, Ron Paul was courageous to suggest on MTP that there was an alternative approach to end slavery (the government purchasing the slaves and then releasing them. This seems to me to be a better choice than the war option - which cost the lives of 600,000 Americans.

Mr. Hutchinson suggests that when money was offered to slaveholders, it was not accepted to which I say "everyone has a price".

Ron Paul has to be one of the most principled individuals I've seen come on to the U.S. political stage and it's nice to see. He is color blind - unlike Mr. Hutchinson who makes a living at being a "black leader". In my opinion, people that claim to be 'civic leaders' using the color of their skin continually set back race relations.

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» To get elected? Posted by: PaulC
» RE: Give me a break Earl Posted by: octhinker
» RE: Give me a break Earl Posted by: richardsh
no "civil" wars
Posted by: nic4truth on Dec 27, 2007 1:51 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You should check your facts, as those below have stated. You should also check your own spelling prior to publishing this article, since "paynment" is not a word.

Ron is right, and this story is just a headline to grab readership. Big thumbs down.

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Letter to Horace Greely
Posted by: Fafyrd on Dec 27, 2007 2:27 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hon. Horace Greeley:

Dear Sir.

I have just read yours of the 19th. addressed to myself through the New—York Tribune. If there be in it any statements, or assumptions of fact, which I may know to be erroneous, I do not, now and here, controvert them. If there be in it any inferences which I may believe to be falsely drawn, I do not now and here, argue against them. If there be perceptable [sic] in it an impatient and dictatorial tone, I waive it in deference to an old friend, whose heart I have always supposed to be right.

As to the policy I "seem to be pursuing" as you say, I have not meant to leave any one in doubt.

I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.

I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft—expressed personal wish that all men everywhere could be free.

Yours,

A. Lincoln.

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» I see it too ... Posted by: PaulC
» Troll Primer (Part I) Posted by: PaulC
» Troll Primer (Part II) Posted by: PaulC
esmith512
Posted by: esmith512 on Dec 27, 2007 3:17 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The so-called "American Civil War" was only peripherally about slavery, the fundamental reason for the Civil War over the limit of states rights and the the enforcement of the authority of federal rights to Union over the state's rights to secede from that Union. History details the southern states forming the CSA did so in maintaining a long-entrenched economic status quo of using slavery at a time that rising industrialist capabilities worldwide were rendering slavery a socially and technically inefficient waste of human potential and capital. History also notes Lincoln as being comparatively indifferent to slavery--his primary objective was reunification. Had emancipation by imminent domain (the government buying slaves/property at market value with economic parities for the affected industries) and enforcing human rights (the liberation of former slaves into productive self-determined citizens) been more diplomatically pursued and gained, the secessions and the following American Civil War's huge social costs (600,000 lives and about a century of lingering hostilities) could have been avoided. Slavery was banned in most of the world without wars, the same could have occurred in the USA with better political diplomacy and attention to transitional economic maintenance. I believe Ron Paul's commentary centered on the principle of diplomatic and economic resolution always being preferable to war, with the errors precipitating and the expensive mess that was the American Civil War being his examples on the "Meet The Press" television program.

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Slavery was not abolished in most countries without wars
Posted by: logansafi on Dec 27, 2007 5:17 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After going through all the nonsense here about Lincoln and slavery supposedly not being the main issue in the Civil War, one thread of Libertarians posting here is clear. They seem to overwhelmingly think that slavery was abolished throughout the world minus wars, except in the US! This is a rather preposterous and historical assertion.

As just one example, I might mention the use of slaves by Belgium in the Congo region of Africa. Tens of millions were murdered by Belgium and we are talking about a time frame of inside the 20th Century and in one country alone.

Then we could discuss Brazil and the Yucatan, too. Even today, conditions across the world in many countries verge on slavery. The Russian serf of 1915 was a virtual slave, and certainly that helped precipitate a major civil war there. It was called the Russian Revolution.

In short, American Libertarians are totally out to lunch on their analysis that the American Civil War had nothing or little to do with slavery. How sad to see so much nonsense about this historical subject posted so uncritically in comments on alternet.

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» Just the facts, please Posted by: PaulC
Suggesting alternatives to wholesale slaughter enrages me too
Posted by: Dave's not here on Dec 27, 2007 5:53 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If there is one thing that really frosts me about Ron Paul is all his talk about logical low-cost approaches that have actually worked in similar situations. Why settle an issue peacefully when you can have the slaughter of 600,000 Americans instead?

I'm glad this author shares and exceeds my own rage; although I must confess that I have never been so angry in my life about anything as this author seems to be about Ron Paul, as evidenced by more gratifying insults per column inch than I've ever had the blood-lust to read:

"No shot GOP presidential candidate"
"just jerking off the press"
"shoot from the lip"
"loose brained"
"dumb wit Paulisms"
"idiot read of history"

You go, girl! I didn't fully realize that Ron Paul is so stupid/dumb/idiotic/unelectable (especially unelectable -- keep emphasizing that) until I read these hysterics.

Get this -- this will infuriate you even more if that's possible: Ron Paul has the audacity (stupidity, idiocy, naivete) to suggest that maybe we don't need to preemptively attack Iran!

That does it! Now I'm really mad! Do NOT deny me the opportunity of seeing lots of other people get killed while I safely sit here somehow feeling like a terrorized cowardly victim and a studly tough-talking realist at the same time.

Everybody now repeat after me: Ron Paul can NOT win. Ron Paul is NOT going to win.

Finally, pick something reasonable that Ron Paul has said, take extreme offense at it, and publish an article with lots of name-calling. Maybe you can persuade people not to vote for him.

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Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
» Rumors are not facts Posted by: Lesha
» An argument! Posted by: PaulC
This article ignores a quote by "Honest Abe":
Posted by: kfed on Dec 27, 2007 6:51 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article ignores a quote by "Honest Abe":
"My paramount object in this struggle is the save the Union, and it is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slaves I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."

Author missed Paul's point: Offering a few more bucks is better than getting 60K people killed via war to prevent a few states from exercising their constitutional right (10th amendment) to leave the US.

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Truth-Be-Told
Posted by: zamboni on Dec 27, 2007 8:16 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Abe Lincoln Was a Racist. In His Own Words...

Lincoln's plea that slavery allowed the worst evil of all-race mixing-was first articulated in Springfield, Illinois, on June 26, 1857

http://www.webcom.com/~intvoice/sweet3.html
from his first political campaign in Illinois until the day he attended Ford's theater, Abraham Lincoln worked to banish Blacks, preferably "back to Africa."

Lincoln, support involuntary "colonization" as the final solution to keeping America forever White? It was because the Midwest was settled a generation earlier, when their parents fled the South. Thousands of penniless refugees had crossed the Ohio River in the early 1800s to escape a regime unique in the annals of tyranny-a planter aristocracy which deliberately kept non-slaveowning Whites in squalor, ignorance, and poverty. As South Carolinian James Hammond successfully argued against public schools, "teach [poor Whites] to read, and next thing you know they will become abolitionists." And so, men seeking a better life uprooted their families and fled the oppressive slave states. Their children never forgave the slaves

The South was wrong about Lincoln. The evidence shows that Lincoln honestly did not intend to interfere with slavery in the South. But Lincoln truly meant what he said. He was often asked, if slavery was evil, why he merely opposed its spread? His answer was that slavery was evil because it brought in Black people.

According to Lincoln, some slaves would become free. And wherever slaves became free, they wanted to join American society. They wanted what Lincoln called "social or political equality." Free Blacks wanted to attend schools, hold jobs, own businesses, attend theaters, ride public transportation, go to church, vote, marry whom they chose, serve on juries, and testify in court. This was something Lincoln bitterly opposed. Like most men born and raised in Ohio, Indiana and Illinois, Lincoln considered Blacks an inferior sub-species. Let slavery expand to Kansas, and the next thing you know, Kansas would be infested with Black people trying to act White.

Lincoln's plea that slavery allowed the worst evil of all-race mixing-was first articulated in Springfield, Illinois, on June 26, 1857. He repeated this speech in a dozen later venues, and referred back to it for the rest of his life. The following is a verbatim copy of its midsection. It is quoted in its entirety to avoid suspicion that Lincoln's words are taken out of context.

Judge Douglas is especially horrified at the thought of the mixing blood by the white and black races: agreed for once-a thousand times agreed. There are white men enough to marry all the white women, and black men enough to marry all the black women; and so let them be married. On this point we fully agree with the Judge; and when he shall show that his policy is better adapted to prevent amalgamation than ours we shall drop ours, and adopt his. Let us see. greatest source of amalgamation;

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» RE: Truth-Be-Told Posted by: Bartleby1701
More on Lincoln
Posted by: Fafyrd on Dec 27, 2007 9:28 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Judge Napolitano on Lincoln. Under two minutes.

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A Little Misguided
Posted by: sir_law on Dec 27, 2007 9:44 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mr. Hutchinson,

I think your analysis of Dr. Paul's statements may be a bit misguided. While I believe that most readers of this article will agree that the concept of slavery is fundamentally in discord with the natural rights of man, I believe that Dr. Paul's intention was primarily to highlight the fact that the tenth amendment to the US Constitution has largely been disregarded since that point. It was the intent of the founders to limit the power of the federal government and reserve the majority of governing powers to the states. This was done to avert the rise of tyranny from an overly powerful central government in which a great deal of power was concentrated in the hands of a few persons. The rise of the Republican Party in 1860 also signified a turning point that led to a greater concentration of power towards the federal government. Obviously, it is ridiculous to paint Ron Paul as an advocate of slavery. I think the intent of his statement was to highlight this issue: the tenth amendment has been progressively disregarded in the past 150 years and Lincoln's actions in this matter represent an important precedent for this trend.

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Earl!
Posted by: bantam on Dec 27, 2007 10:34 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Earl, Earl. What's the matter, bro?

You're against the death penalty. So is Paul.

You're against the worthless war in Iraq. So is Paul.

You're against the drug war that is terrorizing this country, and blacks especially. So is Paul.


Why do you have to be such a jive turkey? Calm down for a minute and read some of this cat's positions. He's hip, man. He's the best person up there, Remocrat or Depublican. You should be talking him up, not writing childish and crude insults.

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Lincoln Took HGH And Played Against The Washinton Senators For The Harlem Globetrotters
Posted by: hole11 on Dec 27, 2007 10:37 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seriously please explain France's involvement in Mexico during the civil war. Are you running out of race cards?

The war was fought because of railroads being built in northern states. Can you imagine how much money a slave owner would have made if those monies were spent in the south? No? Then tell me how white people made a living when there were so much cheap labor?

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Economics of Slavery
Posted by: madspartan on Dec 27, 2007 10:44 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course, it would have been grossly unfair to "solve" the problem of slavery by expecting people who were captured in Africa to work extra hard in order to buy back their freedom from plantation owners in the South. But was it any fairer to solve the problem by forcing hundreds of thousands of non-slave-holding citizens to slaughter each other? Just to clarify, Ron Paul isn't saying that the slaves in the US should have purchased their freedom. Rather, he's arguing that a far more humane solution than the Civil War would have been for the federal government to pay fair market prices to the slaveholders for their property, and then to free the people whom the government had just "purchased." This is consistent with the 5th Amendment, after all, which requires that taking private "property" (much as that terminology shocks us today) for "public use" requires "just compensation."

For those who think it axiomatic that an unbridled free market fosters slavery, while government intervention is necessary to end it, I encourage you to read up on the academic literature (pdf). As I hope this short essay has demonstrated, the case isn’t nearly as open-and-shut as it first appears. Indeed, the more one thinks through the economics of the situation, the more the problem becomes, "How the heck did the South maintain such an inefficient system for so long?"

I’ll close with one final observation: If slavery is such a material boon to a society – from the point of view of the non-slaves, of course – then why was it the North that blockaded and invaded the South, rather than vice versa? It’s no coincidence that the North, based on free labor, was more industrialized than the South, just as it was no coincidence that the US had far more matériel with which to conquer Nazi Germany or engage in an arms race with the Soviet Union. Freedom works.

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» bigotry is an awful thing Posted by: PaulC
Nothing will sway the Right Wing fascist Paul Kool-Aid drinkers
Posted by: xbj on Dec 28, 2007 1:30 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Least of all, common sense and truth. For this crew, they would give Satan himself a blowjob if he would promise to "restore the republic, reduce the Fed government to 1776 size, get rid of the income tax and public schools, build a wall between the US and Mexico, run the illegals out of the country, end the Federal Reserve, and let the Red State trailer trash Nazis run their states the way they want to, including creationism in schools and evolution out of them, no abortion at all, and colored drinking fountains and complete segregation." These issues are, to them, what abortion is to the Christianist fascists.

The fact that Paul is a bit slow on the draw and often wrong sways none of them in the slightest; they have found their hot button issues and will follow Paul right over the cliff. In this case it isn't Satan they're giving the blowjob to, but rather, Bozo.

The clown. I wish it were otherwise, but anyone that thinks they can "restore" the Nazi GOP to anything resembling proper has definitely got balloons for brains.

That said and done, I'd still like to see him be Hillary's wildcard Veep. Her firm grasp on political reality might make it possible for him to achieve some of his more doable and less right wing militia fascist goals.

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ruminations
Posted by: Cyndane on Dec 28, 2007 1:32 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1 - The attempt to buy the slaves forcibly (as compensation for the government seizure of private property) would have caused an even greater Civil War, as the whole point was that slavery underpinned the whole social order in the South. I don't think Mr. Paul suggested that exactly, since he seems too smart for that. I'd assume he suggested that we should have let free market forces creep slowly into the South and destroy slavery from the inside out by "buying out" slave labor.

2 - The attempt to introduce free-market industrialized agriculture within a slave-owning society might not have worked. People get fierce about protecting their culture. The desire for cultural protection is maybe one of the only forces in the world stronger than free-market economics, and the only way the free market has been able to erode cultural ties is through insidious youth marketing, which might have worked in the long-term to put slave-owners out of business, but in the short-term it would have been a local phenomenon seen to be coming out of the North, making old-time Southerners just as angry, if not more so than they were during the 1850s; just as spoiling for war as they were when Lincoln took office.

3 - Lincoln fought the war in order to save the Union. He wanted the North states and the South states to be in the same country rather than two separate countries. Various cultural and economic forces that had already been brewing surrounding slavery came to a head when Lincoln became president and a bunch of states seceded. The choice that Mr. Paul seems to be criticizing is Lincoln's choice to use the U.S. army to put down the Confederate secession - that is to say, Mr. Paul would rather have let them secede and watch the Confederate economy go down the tubes (thus ending slavery through economic pressure) while the Union prospered as a free nation to the north, protecting the border but going no farther than that.

4 - That's what the discussion should be about - whether or not it would have been more prudent to let the Confederates secede. To have said, "if you don't want to be part of our country, go ahead, let's see how long you last," and wage economic warfare that way. I think it's clear it would have been more prudent economically, it would have been better as far as not losing 600000 lives, but would it have been better in the context of ending slavery and combating racism?

5 - Think. Even after the slaves were emancipated, was life THAT much better for African-Americans, especially for those living in the South? I think Mr. Paul's criticism of big government is valid here - if a slaveowning economy collapsed in the face of a free market (geared toward youth as it always is), former slaves may have been phased into society in a more natural way, in a way that made more cultural sense. As it is, white folks in the South STILL get testy about the Civil War, about big government that forced them to change. White folks still hang nooses from trees.

6 - However, it is still a cold thing to say. "We're not going to help you, because your country has to collapse and rebuild from the inside out before you can truly be free." Who's to say the new regime would be any freer than the old one? It could take decades, centuries, before a working free economy were established. Unless companies from the Union came in and exploited workers by acquiring labor from poor local economies making money from rich local economies, which is an instance in which the free market doesn't promote social freedom.

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ruminations pt. 2
Posted by: Cyndane on Dec 28, 2007 1:32 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
7 - Concerning racism, it's a cultural problem, not an economic one. I think Mr. Paul's assertion that having an individualist as opposed to collectivist mindset means the end of racism is a noble, simple ideal, but it doesn't quite sit well with me. You can't be in a position of power, tell someone that you don't care about their extended family's past struggles and expect them to take it sitting down. Things like that cause wars, civil wars, when leaders fail to care about the personal concerns of their consituents. Sometimes deeply understanding the cultural impulse and following your empathic heart rather than your head can have the most profound economic impact. Human beings may want lots of cheap stuff and lots of freedoms and lots of opportunity to live their dreams, but we're also illogical beings, full of contradiction and desiring nominal groups to classify ourselves as and fight for. We still want to be heard and we still want to see ourselves reflected in the eyes of others, in the names of our groups, in the eyes of our leaders.

A government that can't meet and handle human contradiction might potentially last forever, but it'd never be elected by humans in the first place, nor would it ever force itself into power. That's why Ron Paul, as noble and interesting a figure as he is, as brilliant and thought-provoking as his ideas are, likely won't become president. His policies and statements don't take into account the individual illogic at the heart of what it means to be human, the fact that people like Mr. Hutchinson read him the way THEY want to, rather than the way he speaks. That's why typical politicians spend so much time spinning and bullshitting, because they know that if they don't, if they just speak what they believe, people will read their message a million different ways.

It's depressing, because I really get bored of political spinning. I signed up for Obama newsletters but they just have the same self-righteous tone all the freaking time, keep saying the same sort of thing. "I'm the principled candidate," blah blah blah. Ron Paul even does the spinning, to a smaller extent; he repeats "freedom" a lot. But then he also says really interesting, controversial, out of the blue things like this about Lincoln and slavery, which I admire because I like the opportunity to think about what someone said when they weren't worried about how it would be spun. It feels more like a genuine engagement, even if it is arguably racist. It's better to talk about how you feel than to have racism hidden in the recesses of your mind because you're somehow ashamed and censoring every word you say. Just have the courage to discuss and stand by or question the words that flow out your mouth, to stand up straight and own your own skin. You can't do more than that. I think Mr. Paul has been behaving admirably so far, and hope to see how he responds to the bullshit media and other politicians spinning his comment to show what a whacko nutjob they want to portray him as, or whatever. I hope he gives a strong, heartfelt, courageous public response.

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» RE: ruminations pt. 2 Posted by: fraterm
"How the rest of the world ended slavery" is a bit disengenous of Paul anyway
Posted by: xbj on Dec 28, 2007 1:44 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The rest of the world ended slavery the way they did PRECISELY to AVOID the bloody civil war the US went through. If one accepts Paul's theory that the Civil War was the worst way to end it, who's to say that without such a horrific example of the "wrong" way to do it, that the rest of the world wouldn't have found the "right way" and would also have chosen the "wrong" way?

So giving the rest of the planet credit for not copying the US's bloody example is not exactly a case of giving credit where credit is due.

But that DOES bring up an interesting parallel; is the US today with its miserable failure on the war on terrorism going to show the rest of the planet exactly what NOT to do?

Can't this country ever get anything right? Or are we just irredeemably damned?

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HUTCHINSON-----SPIN
Posted by: patfr on Dec 28, 2007 2:37 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
SIR
Sir we saw the same show you did, and before you put the spin on it,he was simply saying it could have been handled diplomatically, without the war.
There were many reasons that brought on the civil war, not just slavery.I don't know whos books you've been reading, but I suggest you return to your history books before writing anymore of your fictional garbage. You might also look up how, and why Lincoln got the nickname "HONEST ABE". He was a very shadey character. with the spin you put on this, you two may have something in common

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Abraham Lincoln
Posted by: patmcclung on Dec 28, 2007 4:36 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Abraham Lincoln was America's worst president.

1. Because of his policy of promulgating and accepting only surrender in the War Between the States, he is personally responsible for the death of over a million Americans.

2. The war, and it's aftermath of vengeful resentment, damaged the prospects black people in the United States. Set them back at least 100 years. Black Americans have yet to recover from the damage done to them by Lincoln.

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» RE: Abraham Lincoln Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Abraham Lincoln Posted by: newtype_alpha
» RE: Abraham Lincoln Posted by: Thucy
Research?
Posted by: jamesdean on Dec 28, 2007 4:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Isn't research apart of journalism these days? Hell I knew it was to stop them from succeeding, they told me on the Lincoln tour in DC for petes sake. Come on guys, integrity please.

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WMD"S
Posted by: deapp on Dec 28, 2007 5:31 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anyone who thinks that the Civil War was not fought over slavery believes also that the Bush War is being fought over WMD’s.

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Left alone, the cotton gin would've ended slavery....
Posted by: xvictor on Dec 28, 2007 6:14 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Slavery was a dying institution in the South even before the Civil War. The industrial revolution made slavery uneconomical in the long run. Thanks to the cotton gin and other devices developed then it was cheaper for machines to economically and efficiently perform many tasks. In fact, many slave-holding plantations were going under because of competition from efficient mechanization. and that particular trend was continuous right up to the start of hostilities.

It doesn't make much sense in the the least to say that the Civil War was fought to end slavery when, truthfully, NOT FIGHTING the Civil War would've ended it anyway. I would've prefered it that way, sure. wouldn't u?

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» You have it backwards Posted by: brunowe
» The Economics of Slavery Posted by: xvictor
» RE: The Economics of Slavery Posted by: brunowe
» RE: The Economics of Slavery Posted by: newtype_alpha
Everywhere is war!
Posted by: ericthefool on Dec 28, 2007 7:30 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.

But instead the writer is on the side of war, murder, lies, corruption, profiteering, cover-ups, torture, and croniism.

You have to wake up some time!

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"The Confused Altered Nuts is the message"
Posted by: Leonardo on Dec 28, 2007 8:31 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yup,
As I've gathered , he's getting popular with his message and you the f*cking MSM, neocons etc. can't stand it!!!

You can get rid of the honorable man, but not the his sole message!!!

"We the People" are looking for a good doctor in the house and found him to be genuine.

"Freedom, Prosperity and Peace" at last!!!

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Isn't America great?
Posted by: Leonardo on Dec 28, 2007 8:40 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You know someone said that;
"Opinion is like an asshole, everyone has one"

and if you happen to have a sound one, no one can chew on it...

What do you think?

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which other nation fought a civil war about slavery?
Posted by: billwald on Dec 28, 2007 9:14 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The world was mostly pro-slave. The rest of the world discovered slavery was inefficient in an industrial nation.

The Confederacy was stupid. They should have passed an amendment that only a child of 2 American parents had an automatic citizenship. Then they could have imported slaves and turned them loose.

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Paul's Lie
Posted by: wwsword on Dec 28, 2007 9:25 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Paul also voiced this idiot history on the Bill Maher show. He is working from the neoconfederate version history. Paul is a white nationalist, so this revisionist history is consistent with his political beliefs. It's good that Earl Ofari Hutchinson corrected the record. Everything Hitchinson says in this post is accurate and relevant.

Let me add that slavery is a moral crime. Having US citizens give money to slaveowners to free slaves to have a peaceful solution is the same thing as paying ransom to kidnappers and then letting them walk away with the money. Not only should war be waged to end injustice when the perpetrators refuse to stop doing wrong, but their property should have been confiscated and redistributed among the former slaves. The failure to do this was a great error. But it is never too late to fix such errors. Families still benefit from unearned advantages from slavery, while other families suffer disadvantages stemming from past exploitation.

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» RE: Paul's Lie Posted by: left_libertarian
History in a nutshell
Posted by: willymack on Dec 28, 2007 10:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How much longer do we have to fight the Civil War? To its everlasting shame, the Union allowed a sick society to emerge in the South, and an evil based on human enslavement and misery to florish to the point where the whole system had to be crushed. Those are the hard, inescapable facts, and no amount of attempted historical revision can change them.

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In the rest of the world...
Posted by: gorak on Dec 28, 2007 10:53 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yay for popping sacred cow bubbles...

Anyways people seriously research how slavery ended EVERYWHERE ELSE IN THE WESTERN WORLD. It ended by buyouts. It seams like America was the only country so retarded and ignorant they had to fight a civil war to end it.

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Read the Emancipation Proclamation.
Posted by: ryknolesdunnflea on Dec 28, 2007 11:05 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not only did it not come about until relatively late in the war, it only freed slaves in the rebelling states. That is to say that slavery was still legal in the states which were under union control. Read Abe's words himself. He wanted to maintain the union at all costs, not end slavery. The Emancipation Proclamation gave the north nearly 200,000 extra forces by the end of the war- this is common knowledge, not any sort of revisionist history. Besides, slavery did not stop until the 13th amendment. This is common knowledge among historians. I am surprised at the uproar surrounding Dr. Paul's comments. They are wholly justified.

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Civil War
Posted by: dddienst on Dec 28, 2007 11:29 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First off the Civil Was is incorrectly named. In a Civil war both sides are fighting for control of the whole which was not the case. The war was fought because the south wanted to leave the union. Why? Because of the issue of slavery the irreconcilable difference it had with the north.

Even though the south fired the first shot it was Lincoln's war to unite the states. When Virgina originally joined the union they added the caviot that they specifically reserved the right to leave it. In doing this he suspended havious courpus, imprisoned newsmen and northern senators that disagreed with him. Instead of it being the brightest spot in the history of our constitution it is a black and dirty burn mark in it ringed in blood. There may have been a way to preserve the union and end slavery but by the time Lincoln was president all such options were gone.

This caused a muddy bit with the amendments that came from it since the southern states were not allowed to enter the union again unless they ratified the amendments but only a state of the union can ratify them leading to a which came first argument.

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This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
Ron Paul Had Exposed them!!!!
Posted by: xvictor on Dec 28, 2007 7:30 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dr. Ron Paul sure made that NBC interregator look like a dumb jerk! Ron EXCELS at making know-it-alls look like dumb jerks. Let's see: Rudy Ghouliani and John McCain got creamed by his astute responses. Dr. Paul had even masterly lectured the Fed Chairman on the history of banking and money. The face on the chairman looked like it was all new to him.

The White House needs an intelligent president for a change. No other person but Ron Paul, the history expert, can lend credibility and respect to the office. Let's use our brains and make it so!!!

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» RE: Ya, Vohl!!! Posted by: xbj
Your candidates for president
Posted by: xvictor on Dec 28, 2007 7:53 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
RON PAUL -- excellent, all-around individual. The most qualified to hold office.

HILLARY CLINTON -- carpetbagger, voted for overseas aggression, opportunist, hubby of billy. If elected, she will continue the slaughter overseas.

OBAMA -- pukes out many platitudes. that's all he does. he became a senator by default only because the Repug front runner got himself into a messy scandal and had to drop out.

EDWARDS -- after Ron Paul, another qualified individual, but he's a long shot; the night's still young, however.

McCAIN -- all those years of solitude in a POW cell eating bugs and worms has finally got to him. we don't need a prez who gets slapped with flashbacks.

RUDY GHOULIANI -- he's an anachronism. He'd make a great fit in 1930s Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy. Then, the small man may have finally found his balcony.

MITT ROMNEY -- he doesn't need to be prez. he just needs a hand mirror.

HUCKABEE -- does the US need another mullah for president?

RON PAUL -- did I mention Ron Paul. YES, he's worth mentioning again!!!

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» KUCINICH the sane alternative Posted by: undrgrndgirl
» Democrats Swift Boating Ron Paul Posted by: left_libertarian
» May I add Posted by: Lesha
Kucinich is the man!
Posted by: PaulC on Dec 29, 2007 1:05 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All of Ron Paul's good positions and much, much more - without the right wing free market fundamentalist ideology or the racist pandering!

peace,
Paul

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» RE: Kucinich is the man! Posted by: undrgrndgirl
» RE: Kucinich is the man! Posted by: left_libertarian
» RE: Kucinich is the man! Posted by: peacelf
» RE: Kucinich is the man! Posted by: left_libertarian
Just Plain Bad Thinking
Posted by: left_libertarian on Dec 29, 2007 5:28 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Earl Ofari Hutchinson writes: “No shot GOP presidential candidate Ron Paul tossed out yet another juicy zinger this time on "Meet the Press" when he said that Lincoln was a bad guy for fighting the civil war.”

Isn’t this the basic neo-con line of attack toward those who are against the Iraq War? I can imagine Bill Kristol say: “Is Bush a bad guy for fighting the brutal dictator Saddam and freeing the Iraqi people?”

Was war the only way to end slavery in the US?

In the late 18th century, a small group of Englishmen went out on a limb and put forward the radical notion that slavery was wrong. At first, their proposal that Enlightenment ideals of equality and liberty should be extended to the millions of African slaves held in Britain’s colonies looked like a non-starter. “The idea of ending slavery seemed totally utopian, crackpot, wildly too idealistic,” says journalist and writer Adam Hochschild. Yet, as Hochschild recounts in his new book, Bury The Chains: Prophets and Rebels in the Fight to Free an Empire’s Slaves, these abolitionists proved themselves right in far less time than anyone might have imagined. Slightly more than 50 years after its humble birth in a London print shop in 1787, the British antislavery movement overturned the atrocity that had formed the economic backbone of the world’s most powerful empire.
This achievement was revolutionary, says Hochschild, not simply because it was a moral victory but because it inaugurated the era of the grassroots human-rights campaign. “Though born in the age of swords, wigs, and stagecoaches,” Hochschild wrote in an excerpt of published in Mother Jones last January, “the British anti-slavery movement leaves us an extraordinary legacy. Every day activists use the tools it helped pioneer: consumer boycotts, newsletters, petitions, political posters and buttons, national campaigns with local committees, and much more. But far more important is the boldness of its vision.”

http://www.motherjones.com/news/qa/2005/01/hochschild.html

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Dr. Reality
Posted by: jfingers1 on Dec 29, 2007 8:12 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A very cheap essay full of with holes and the odor of rancid swiss cheese. This is a political hit piece and nothing more, and a poor one at that. I have not read something so desperate in a long time. It seems Dr. Paul has struck a nerve, a deep nerve and the powers that be are a bit worried. Its not that they are worried about one man, they are worried about the millions behind this man. As a lot of people start connecting the dots, we can expect more of this useless drivel and know what its intent is.

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Don't elect ideaologues
Posted by: Everitt on Dec 29, 2007 8:52 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's funny that many of the Ron Paul faithful are here defending him. This whole states' rights issue is a perfect example of why strict adherence to political doctrine is both unworkable and inhumane.

States' rights has long been the pretty coating for defending the South's racist and barbaric practices. But there are genuine conservatives who believe in the underlying concept (some of those tend to be bigots to figure that).

And why not? It sounds good - personal freedom, low taxes, space and privacy. But then there are times when personal freedom amounts to the right to be monsters enslavers, overlords and even murderers - as was the case in the South. Political theories don't work as well in practice as they do in the politics class.

So to all you genuine pro-Paul conservatives (not the Southern apologists and racists)can you honestly not see the basic inhumanity of adhering to a states' rights argument when it comes to something like slavery? Maybe you can't. After all, Hitler, Mao, and Pol Pot didn't allow humanity to interfere with their politics either.

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» RE: Don't elect ideaologues Posted by: left_libertarian
» RE: Don't elect ideaologues Posted by: Everitt
» RE: Please validate your claims Posted by: left_libertarian
» RE: Please validate your claims Posted by: left_libertarian
Another President ignorant about history?
Posted by: SgtCedar on Dec 29, 2007 12:23 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Great, just what we need another President who does not know anything about history. Elect Ron Paul and see America sink even further into the sewer.

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All this talk about how the market would have ended slavery ignores
Posted by: Thucy on Dec 29, 2007 1:10 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the realities of racism in the US in 1861, and how much this affected southern attitudes about abolition and the prospect of millions of newly freed blacks in their midst. Simply put, very many white southerners, if not the majority (and very many white northerners as well) believed black people were morally inferior to whites, prone to violence and lust, and that any loosening of their chains would end in a massacre of innocent whites. The white hysteria that came in response to Lincoln's election in 1860 was a result of this charged racial atmospere, and any attempt to understand why the civil war happened when and as it did that ignores the overwhelming role of white racism is doomed to be inaccurate if not downright dishonest.

James McPherson's "Battle Cry of Freedom" provides a pretty good picture of the southern mood in April 1861. Here are two quotes, of many he cites, that will give you a taste of the public atmosphere of the time:

From a sermon by Rev. James Furman, a leading Baptist minister in Charleston, "If you are tame enough to submit [to Lincoln's presidency], Abolition preachers will be at hand to consumate the marriage of your daughters to black husbands."

From an editorial in an Alabama newspaper: "Submit to have our wives and daughters choose between death and gratifying the hellish lust of the negro!! Better ten thousand deaths than submission to Black Republicanism."

Thousands upon thousands of such sermons, editorials, handbills, speeches, were delivered in the weeks leading up to the confederate attack on Sumter. Many were far cruder, far more ugly. Northern businessmen, traveling in the south, were tarred and feathered simply for being from the North. Some slaves were lynched preemptively to prevent a "slave rebellion" promulgated by "outside agitators" emboldened by the election of "Black Republicans." Armed grops of white southerners patrolled the streets at night, looking for these "agitators" with an eye to lynching them as well. This is what Lincoln had to deal with, as he tried to negotiate some peaceful settlement to the crisis caused by his entirely legal and constitutional election.

I haven't seen a single Ron Paul supporter on this thread even acknowledge this history. Personally, I'm skeptical that people prone to ranting about how Lincoln's inauguration would lead to the inevitable rape of their wives and daughters by hoards of "hellishly lustful negros" could have been persuaded to end slavery for economic reasons. It's this same refusal to clearly confront this nation's history of racism that has Paul and his followers belittling the necessity for Brown v. Board, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

Please understand, I'm not saying Ron Paul is a racist, or that his followers or any of the people posting here are necessarily racist. But this refusal to consider the role and impact of one of the fundamental forces of American history, and the recurring rationalizations for the rebellion of southern slave owners against a lawfully constituted US administration, makes it impossible for me to support Ron Paul, no matter what his position on the other issues might be.

I'd like to see some considered counterpoint to this, but if you're just interested in flame wars, please don't bother.

Best wishes.

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Ron Paul Racist Propaganda Exposed
Posted by: Lesha on Dec 29, 2007 1:16 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Article by Paul Joseph Watson

Peddlers of American Nazi Party leader Bill White's ridiculous claim that Ron Paul is a white supremacist have unwittingly exposed themselves as Israeli propagandists, after a keen-eyed Mike Rivero over at WhatReallyHappened.com spotted the icon for "Megaphone," an Israeli government supported PR front, on one of their screenshots.



Heres the link:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/
IMAGES/nazi-white-screenshotCU.jpg

Just in case the link doesn't work just go to
www.whatreallyhappened.com and type in Bill White and get the chance to read all kinds of info on Bill White.

Article continued:

According to Wikipedia, "The Megaphone desktop tool is a Microsoft Windows application distributed by the World Union of Jewish Students and other pro-Israel organizations, through the Giyus.org website. Released on July 19, 2006, it delivers real-time alerts about key articles, videos, blogs, and surveys to subscribers so that they can voice their opinions and work together to support Israel on the public opinion front."

The Israeli government itself has urged users to "become cyberspace soldiers in the new battleground for Israel's image," by using the Megaphone tool.

UK technology website The Register has described use of the software as "highly organised mass manipulation of technologies which are supposed to be democratising" and slammed Megaphone as "effectively a high-tech exercise in ballot-stuffing".

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Ron Paul Racist Propaganda Exposed- Part 2
Posted by: Lesha on Dec 29, 2007 1:17 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
White's claim about Ron Paul's "extensive involvement in white nationalism" is patently ridiculous in itself.

As Rivero points out, "Now, one might suppose that the American Nazi party would be happy to have a candidate who shares their views, and one might assume that Bill White is smart enough to know that making such a public accusation is going to be quite harmful to the candidate he claims shares his philosophy. Indeed it does appear that Bill White's accusation is intended to cause as much harm to Ron Paul as possible."

As is strikingly obvious, Bill White's spurious claim is the latest salvo in a desperate attempt on behalf of the establishment to smear Ron Paul as a fascist racist sympathizer.

Since the Congressman is as clean as a whistle and unlike Romney, Huckabee and Giuliani has no skeletons in the closet, the establishment are forced to resort to the dirtiest trick in the book - guilt by association.

Nowhere was this more evident than an Associated Press headline yesterday - Paul Keeps White Supremacist Donation - a blatant slur designed to scare off undecided voters from researching further into what the Congressman actually stands for.

I'm sure the media could dig up all kinds of monsters who have given hefty sums to Romney and Giuliani and then tar them with the same brush but you'll never see it happen, because as Salon writer Glenn Greenwald points out, the establishment have launched a vicious assault on Ron Paul.

How about the Neo-Cons who advocate ethnically cleansing the middle east and making Bush dictator of the world? Who have they donated to? Romney Keeps Donation From Fascist Ethnic Cleansing Advocate - will AP carry that story?

How about Stu Bykovsky, the Philadelphia Inquirer writer who called for a new 9/11 to reinvigorate support for Republicans - who did he donate to and why isn't the media interested in finding out? Giuliani Keeps Donation From Writer Who Yearned For New 9/11 is a headline we'll never see.

How about talking to those putrid Neo-Cons who went on the National Review's annual cruise this past summer - you know, the people who like to share their belief that anyone who protests against Bush be executed in gas chambers - who did they donate to? McCain? Huckabee?

The media won't find out and they won't be issuing any ad hominem smear headlines against any of the establishment candidates because they know on which side their bread is buttered.

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England Ended Slavery Without A War
Posted by: left_libertarian on Dec 29, 2007 1:52 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the late 18th century, a small group of Englishmen went out on a limb and put forward the radical notion that slavery was wrong. At first, their proposal that Enlightenment ideals of equality and liberty should be extended to the millions of African slaves held in Britain’s colonies looked like a non-starter.

“The idea of ending slavery seemed totally utopian, crackpot, wildly too idealistic,” says journalist and writer Adam Hochschild. Yet, as Hochschild recounts in his new book, Bury The Chains: Prophets and Rebels in the Fight to Free an Empire’s Slaves, these abolitionists proved themselves right in far less time than anyone might have imagined. Slightly more than 50 years after its humble birth in a London print shop in 1787, the British antislavery movement overturned the atrocity that had formed the economic backbone of the world’s most powerful empire.

This achievement was revolutionary, says Hochschild, not simply because it was a moral victory but because it inaugurated the era of the grassroots human-rights campaign. “Though born in the age of swords, wigs, and stagecoaches,” Hochschild wrote in an excerpt of published in Mother Jones last January, “the British anti-slavery movement leaves us an extraordinary legacy. Every day activists use the tools it helped pioneer: consumer boycotts, newsletters, petitions, political posters and buttons, national campaigns with local committees, and much more. But far more important is the boldness of its vision.”

Mother Jones Article

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It's not truth if no one admits it, right?
Posted by: YogiBear on Dec 29, 2007 2:59 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Slavery was a cornerstone of the Southern economy.

Try telling it to folks down North Carolina way. They're still in denial, 143 years later.

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New York Times Retracts Ron Paul Racist Smear
Posted by: Lesha on Dec 29, 2007 7:59 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
New York Times
Thursday, December 27, 2007

A post in The Medium that appeared on Monday about the Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul and his purported adoption by white supremacist and neo-Nazi groups contained several errors.

Stormfront, which describes itself as a “white nationalist” Internet community, did not give money to Ron Paul’s presidential campaign; according to Jesse Benton, a spokesman for Paul’s campaign, it was Don Black, the founder of Stormfront, who donated $500 to Paul.

The original post also repeated a string of assertions by Bill White, the commander of the American National Socialist Workers Party, including the allegation that Paul meets regularly “with members of the Stormfront set, American Renaissance, the Institute for Historic Review and others” at a restaurant in Arlington, Va. Paul never attended these dinners, according to Benton, who also says that Paul has never knowingly met Bill White.

Norman Singleton, a congressional aide in Paul’s office, says that he met Bill White at a dinner gathering of conservatives several years ago, after which Singleton expressed his indignation at the views espoused by White to the organizer of the dinner. The original post should not have been published with these unverified assertions and without any response from Paul.

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No greater love hath no man tha to lay down his life for another
Posted by: jobeob on Dec 29, 2007 8:05 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes war is stupid. Any one who engages in it without first exhausting every other option is foolish. Dr Paul served in Vietnam. He knows how stupid war can be but he also knows the valor of sacrifice. Why is it that you care so much for the slaves of a 140 years ago and you don't give a shit about the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis dead and the millions homeless and displaced? There is a genocide happening in our midst and we are doing nothing but Ron Paul and those that support him know that "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness" are universal rights and not just American. They are spending their money and their time to fight the battles they can because It's the war stupid and nothing else even comes close. If we don't shut down this war the corporations that feed off of it the next fight will be in the streets of Washington, New York and L.A.

Job

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Rewriting History
Posted by: Urgelt on Dec 30, 2007 12:24 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In many ways the article is accurate, but there is a very large hole in it.

The Civil War was not fought to end slavery. Perhaps it should have been, but it was not.

To understand the Civil War, we need to understand the Revolutionary War and its aftermath. Most of the 13 colonies were states as large as many European nations, and each had a unique culture evolved over several hundred years. Federation was viewed by most state delegates to the Constitutional Convention as a mixed blessing. Yes, the states needed to present a common front to the European powers. But federation itself threatened state sovereignty, and many state delegates wanted no part of that. The result was a careful compromise: a federal system of checks and balances to curb federal powers. We're familiar with some of those checks and balances (the three branches of government). But originally, there was another: the right of states to secede, should the federal government overstep its bounds, cease serving the states, and begin ruling them.

Between the Revolution and the Civil War, slavery provoked an ugly division within the union. Think about how abortion inflames passions today; it was much worse. One side of the debate held that slaves were men - no different than nonslaves, or at least not different enough to warrant being owned by other men. The other held that they were some lower form, slower, dumber, incapable of self-expression or responsibility, given by God into their subservient roles. These views, on both sides, were not based on scientific evidence; they were belief systems, and as such, were not resolvable by rational argument.

Slavery was the source of division. So long as the federal government did not act to resolve the dispute, the union could hang together, uncomfortably.

Lincoln's election marked a turning point. Though history shows him to be a flawed spokesman for emancipation, in his time the states all understood that under his Presidency, slavery would be ended.

This was a clear case of the federal government ruling, rather than serving, the states - exactly what those Constitional Convention delegates had feared, and exactly why the threat of secession was a part of the checks and balances of this nation.

We all know what happened. The southern states seceeded. The rump of the nation that was left decided to attempt to force them back into the union through military means. When the dust settled, we were again a single nation - but an important check and balance on federal power had been lost.

In fact, we no longer have federalism at all - the federation of sovereign states ended in 1861 when the right to secede was ended. Slavery was also ended - a good outcome badly tarnished by our grim handling of former slaves and their descendants - but never again would state power be able to challenge the national government. All that's left to the states is appeals to the court system - which is headed by the Supreme Court, which is part of the national government.

This is important today, because the national government has never stopped acquiring power since the end of the Civil War. With the states in no position to challenge it, we have been gradually descending ever since, deeper and deeper, into authoritarianism. Our Constitution is flawed; there aren't enough checks and balances left to prevent it.

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» RE: ewriting History Posted by: newtype_alpha
» RE: ewriting History Posted by: Thucy
» RE: ewriting History Posted by: yellow
» RE: ewriting History Posted by: Bartleby1701
Still A Lot Of Work To Do
Posted by: dumdumboy on Dec 30, 2007 9:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There certainly are a whole lot of knee-jerk racists that read the articles on this site.

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Lot of interest here. . .
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Dec 30, 2007 10:35 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anyone see the film "Amazing Grace?" - seems like the British managed to end slavery without resorting to war.

The real culprits in the civil war were the Southern plantation owners, who had always been opposed to populist democracy in favor of feudal serfdom and slavery.

That reflects the structure of Southern society - the ruling white overlords on their prancing ponies, the poor white crackers in their little shacks, the black field slaves in their little shacks, and the so-called 'house slaves'.

The greatest fear of the plantation owners was that poor whites and poor blacks would join together and burn down their plantations - so they actively encouraged racism.

That's not a topic wealthy Southerner like to discuss - instead, they promote the myth of the "good, kind, generous slaveowner who viewed his slaves as his family and protected them from the savage, illiterate white crackers." This was the same theme that the South Africans promoted during apartheid - blacks are mental incompetents who must be guided by the strong white father who knows what's best for them. Completely untrue, but that's racism for you.

The fact is that slavery and the plantation system generated huge profits which were used to buy politicians who would ensure that the system remained in place. This is the main reason that slavery endured for so long in the U.S., well after it had been abolished in Britain.

The son of a wealthy white planter in the South had one aim - to acquire land and slaves to work the land, and thereby produce vast amounts of agricultural commodities for sale to the North and abroad. That was the standard model! That's what the Southern planters were fighting to protect - and they appealed to the racism among poor whites in order to get them to fight.

There is an close analogy to the global fossil fuel trade today, which has also resulted in suffering on a similar scale to slavery. Fossil fuel interests own entire countries and parliaments, as was the case with the slave trade. Politicians are bought and serve the interests of the fossil fuel barons, all so that the system can remain in place. These business interests shield themselves behind corporate fronts, just as the slave business did.

With the abolition of slavery, the plantation system became unprofitable. However, sharecropping was then instituted, followed by the use of cheap migrant labor - which is still the basis of modern agribusiness in the United States today. Essentially, modern agribusiness is identical to the plantation system, and relies heavily on the immigrant labor force - who are treated very similarly to slaves.

These same corporate interests are currently trying to overthrow democracy in the U.S. and institute a Saudi Arabian-style system. One person-one vote has largely been replaced with one dollar-one vote. The basic liberties enshrined in the Constitution are under constant attack by Republican judges and politicians. They need to be shut down.

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Ron Paul and the Jews
Posted by: yellow on Dec 30, 2007 11:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First of all there is no reason to smear all Jews as is the habit of so many alternet readers for alleged smears against Ron Paul for having alleged ties to white supremacists and other racist groups. WUJS, a group I am familiar with, would never knowingly post false information about a major candidate or anyone else for political purposes. The information about Paul came from a White Supremacist insider named Bill White. If White is lying, then let Ron Paul himself come out and give his side of the story. It is certainly preferable to spreading further lies about Jewish groups allegedly smearing Paul on the internet with false stories.

WUJS may be active on the web defending Israel but they don't have anything to do with promoting stories about an alleged connection between Paul and White Supremacists. These are different issues. By the Way, Ron Paul has a strong core of Jewish supporters who range from libertarian to ultra-orthodox. The Jews are not exactly a group who obsessively keeps Paul in their crosshairs. Why waste time with him when he has no chance of ever winning. I hate Paul because I am a socialist and because Paul's neo-confederate state's rights approach to "constitutionalism" is fascistic and anti-rights. I further think his economics is neo-feudal and will impoverish most of the society while enriching only a few and will also possibly cause a deep depression.

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This is like the story of the Tower of Babel!
Posted by: La Hedonista on Dec 30, 2007 1:51 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anyone out there not remember the Biblical story of the Tower of Babel? The people started to build a tower, then they got too big for their britches thinking themselves equal to God if only they'd build that tower up to heaven but then they began to miscommunicate . . . anyway it ended badly.

This thread is proof of how the Neocons/Bolsheviks have succeeded in confusing the H*ll out of us. In true Orwellian fashion they've taken normal words and made them USELESS by turning their meanings upside down and backwards. They also have adopted the Hegelian process of creating false opposites for us to fight over while they steal our stuff.

It's easy enough to do: Just change the meanings of trigger words for half the population:

Nazi
Fascist
Communist
Morality
Freedom
Christian
American
Liberal
Libertarian
Republican
Democrat
Conservative
etc.

. . . and leave the rest of the population using these words in their traditional context. Then sit back and watch the fun!

Something tells me that if we were speaking the same language we'd all be vehemently agreeing with one another, as in:

Slavery = BAD
History = Complicated
History Class = Indoctrination
Fascism = The worst extreme in top-down control, polar opposite of Libertarianism
Nazi = Socialist descent into tyranny/fascism
Freedom/Liberty = THE American ideal
Ron Paul = Good heart, needs more time to explain

Racism = Stupid prejudice for OR against people based upon race, achieved by collectivizing the races and presuming everyone within a racial group is the "same." The antithesis of individuality.

Libertarianism = Freedom/liberty/individualism taken to an extreme, polar opposite of fascism

NeoCon = Closet Nazi

NeoLiberal = Closet Bolshevik/Trotskyist

. . . etcetera. I could go on. Anyway it's fascinating that "Nazi" and "Racist" are being thrown about to describe Dr. Paul when he's the polar opposite. Nazi-ism and Racisim come out of a collectivist mindset and Dr. Paul doesn't like collectivism at ALL.

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» RE: And might I add... Posted by: Bartleby1701
Jackson Owned Slaves And Kept The Union Together
Posted by: hole11 on Dec 30, 2007 3:15 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He told the people in South Carolina that was instigating separation that he would have their heads swinging outside of capitol hill should they get stupid.

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"the melting pot"
Posted by: free71 on Dec 31, 2007 3:02 PM   
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The Civil War was about white people attempting to protect the system they had in place for controlling the lives of Black people, a system of control which is still very much in place in 2007.

White people can squabble back and forth over whether there were other considerations ("state's rights", federalism, etc.) that played a factor in the Civil War, but as a Black man who's ancestors endured slavery, it is of little concern to me that 600,000 Americans died during the four-year span of war. This is a total which pales in comparison to the numbers of Black people lost during the Middle Passage and chattel slavery.

White society was forced to live with people they only saw as common farm animals, but in exchange for losing absolute control over the lives of Black people, whites instituted white supremacist policies to enable them to control Black people (in terms of opportunity, living space, incarceration, and constant observation of Black communities through law enforcement).

White attitudes towards the humanity of Black people hasn't changed in the least since the end of slavery, and most whites have internalized their belief that they are inherently superior to non-whites and deserve the entitlements they take for granted.

The "melting pot" idea has never worked and the only way Black people can somewhat halt the constant and relentless assault from racist whites is to form a homeland for people of African descent in north America. As long as white people have any sort of control over Black people in life's pursuit, Black people will lose. Count on that.

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Conflicted
Posted by: jmooney on Dec 31, 2007 9:42 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I recently saw the new "National Treasure" movie that begins with Lincoln's assasination. Nick Cage refers to the fact that before the Civil War it was always "the United States are" whereas after the war, it became "the United States is."

It does seem to me that Lincoln's determination was to overthrow the original idea of a confederation of sovereign states, putting in its place a monolithic national government.

Now, as a liberal, I have always supported national governmental intervention to make sure we have some uniformity in the area of civil rights, education, etc. But the gains made there are offset by the losses that have come about as a result of big government. The overthrow of a confedraton of sovereign states has led to the inexorable (no time for spell check; hope it is spelled right) reduction of civil liberties and, I think, paved the way for the mess we have with Bush. The line from Lincoln to Bush is pretty direct.

Had we clung a bit more toward state sovereignty (while allowing for some national tweaking to insure uniform human rights across the states and equalization of educational opportunities among the states), might our federal government now not be so likely to wage these goofy wars such as is going on in Iraq.

Maybe our nation is now too large to be governable, and allowing the south to leave all those years ago might have provided more effective, appropriate government? The south could have been the conservative, theocratic state, the U. S. the liberal, more socialistic state. Liberals in the south could have immigrated to the U. S. and conservatives in the U. S. could have immigrated to the South.

Alas, what about slavery? Unequivocally it was an abomination, and needed to be brought to an end. So, had Lincoln let the South go, would not we have left slavery in place, basically let the South go with its "hostages." Perhaps. But maybe, just maybe had the South been allowed to secede, the U. S. could have scrubbed the fugitive slave laws and welcomed fugitive slaves with open arms. Brave abolitionishts might even have been encouraged to make strategic raids on the south to escort slaves to the North. Of course, the South may have waged war to stop that, but it could have been a more limited war than what happened in the Civil War.

Lincoln's words about slavery are pretty clear in demonstrating he was no great liberal on racial issues. Yeah, you can say he had to walk a fine line back then, not be too liberal, but there were others who were clearly racial liberals, and surely Lincoln wasn't lying when he said he didn't think whites and blacks could every live together. Or maybe he was lying to cover up inate liberalistm? Come on!

We lost too many people in the Civil War. Yes, we ended slavery, and that was good, but then we did a no-assed job of guarding against what happened in the South after Reconstruction (Jim Crow). Maybe Lincoln would have done more in that area, and maybe his contact with blacks such as Frederick Douglas would have brought him along racially. I don't think Lincoln was evil. I think he thought he was doing the right thing, keeping the country together so that it could be a GREAT country rather than two so-so countries, but maybe those two so-so countries would be better than what we have now. Lincoln kept the country together at the point of a gun and did undo our more loose association of sovereign states. I would agree we needed some strength in a federal government to equalize things nationally, but maybe that all could have been done in a way that didn't cost so much in lost lives and in a way that could have led to the end of slavery and a more clear path to real citizenship for ex-slaves.

Oh, well. It is what it is.

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octhinker
Posted by: octhinker on Jan 2, 2008 3:20 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Many historians do say that the Civil War was primarily about reinforcing federalism; however, it is silly to say that slavery was not an issue. The United States needed the commodities of the South to support the economy, and it could not afford to let the southern states secede. Abolition of slavery became a convenient argument--not that there weren't real abolitionists among those who supported the Union.

The southern states depended on their slave labor to produce their commodities, and they justified slavery by denying the humanity of black Africans, while promoting white supremacy.

Market incentives would never have enticed slaveholders to give up their slaves, since many of them felt that they had a biblical right to buy and sell human beings.

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Rotten History and Rotten Politics
Posted by: izzyK on Jan 3, 2008 4:39 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't usually post but well, i thought I'd point out some logical problems in the comments that keep occuring again and again, especially about the Civil War.

1) Many a person says something along the lines of
P1:'Lincoln wasn't for abolishing slavery (even in the emancipation proclamation) therefore
(1) the civil war wasn't about slavery and
(2) lincoln probably shouldn't get a pass for using force to reconquer the southern states.

Both of these assume that lincoln is the driving force on the union side throughout the civil war AND the chief representative of the north.
He was neither, lincoln was an incredibly moderate member of the republican party who, while opposing the westward expansion of slavery (because he was opposed to slavery in principle) he was willing to compromise with the south on all else. but so what?

In the end it was the 'Radical' Republican (they would probably be called 'sane' or 'rational' by modern standards) congress who rejected generals forced the hiring of others instituted black union regiments and it was the firebrand Anti-racist, anti-slavery leaders like Thaddeus Stevens who rammed through the 13th 14th and 15th amendments which finally destroyed slavery.

2) Another person says something to the effect of
P2:"'The civil war wasn't about slavery it was about 'states rights'". States rights to what exactly? The immediate things which pushed toward war were 1-The fugitive slave act which resulted in organized armed abolitionist resistance and infringed on the ability of Free States to remain free states in order to preserve the 'constitutional rights' of southern states. 2- The possible westward expansion of Slavery (bleeding Kansas) 3-southern deadlock preventing any federal aid to make internal improvements like roads, homestead plots, and railroads necessary to industrialization. Why would they want to prevent this? because it would result in westward expansion of free states, hence the 1856 republican slogan:
"Free soil, Free men, Freemont!"

3)Something to the effect of
P3: "The south was right because it, and not the north was on the side of the constitution". Considering the constitution multiplied the southern hold on government through its semi-aristocratic senate, the 3/5's clause, and the electoral college this could easily be the case. British slavery was abolished in 1833 but it endured in the United States largely through the constitution which was indeed all about reigning in the majority and breaking up popular sovereignty. None of this shows anything about (P3), however, except how rotten a document the constitution became by the 1850's. If states could be legally correct in preserving slavery then it is clear that the law itself is not very good, to say the least.

In brief, to think that anyone could be 'right' that a cause could be 'good' simply because the Constitution says so is an ignorant fallacy. One that Ron Paul, i think, holds as a prime tenet of his faith.

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England Ended Slavery Without A War
Posted by: left_libertarian on Jan 3, 2008 5:07 PM   
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See the movie Amazing Grace.

Read the book Bury the Chains by Adam Hochschild.

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Hatred of Ron Paul
Posted by: Roger Ritthaler on Jan 7, 2008 2:20 PM   
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I understand why you think that Ron Paul's statement(s) are "stupid", since he wants to end most every federal program that so-called "liberals" like.

Get real: this is a non-issue and you know it. If Obama or Hillary had said it, you probably would have thought it erudite.

Most people have only the "official" version of the Un-Civil War. It's way past time for people to think about our history, our present, and especially our future.

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