COMMENTS: 147
Pundits Say Clinton or Obama, But Edwards Is Best Bet to Beat GOP
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According to the New York Times/CBS News poll taken Dec. 5-9 (PDF), 63 percent of likely voters believe Hillary Clinton "has the best chance of winning in November" -- the dreaded "electability" question that haunts candidates like Dennis Kucinich. Following Clinton, 14 percent thought Barack Obama was the best equipped to take on the GOP, and just one in ten gave the nod to John Edwards. Of the rest of the field, only New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson got even a single percentage point.
Despite having the highest "unfavorable" numbers of all the top candidates in both parties, Americans think Clinton is the most electable. Go figure.
But according to the CNN poll (PDF) taken Dec. 6-9, a starkly different picture emerges when voters are asked about head-to-head match-ups in November; when the leading Dems are pitted against the top Republicans, it's John Edwards -- not Clinton and not Obama -- who simply wipes the floor with the whole GOP field. "Edwards is the only Democrat who beats all four Republicans," said Keating Holland, CNN's polling director, "and McCain is the only Republican who beats any of the three Democrats."
Compare how Edwards and Clinton do in head-to-head match-ups:
Edwards 54% (+10)
McCain 44%
Clinton 48% (-2)
McCain 50%
Edwards 53%(+9)
Giuliani 44%
Clinton 51%(+6)
Giuliani 45%
Edwards 59%(+22)
Romney 37%
Clinton 54%(+11)
Romney 43%
Edwards 60%(+25)
Huckabee 35%
Clinton 54%(+10)
Huckabee 44%
Like visuals? The Atlantic's Matt Yglesias put the results in graphic form:

(click for larger version)
These results are the diametric opposite of the received wisdom: Clinton, with an average margin of 6.25 points is the least likely to beat the eventual GOP nominee, while Obama's spread is 8.75 points and John Edwards beats the GOP field by an average margin of victory of 16 points. It's worth noting that both the LA Times/ Bloomberg and Gallup polls aren't even including Edwards in their head-to-head match-ups.
The obvious caveats obtain: These data give only a snapshot of opinion at a given point in time; the two polls used different samples, etc. But the disconnect begs the question: How could the conventional wisdom be so far off the mark?
The answer is not, as some believe, some kind of dark conspiracy by the corporate state to get its "man" -- in this case Clinton -- into the White House. The reality is far less satisfying: It's just the usual shoddy political journalism.
The media and political class started paying attention to these horse races long before they were even on the horizon of ordinary people. And scattered among their vapid stories about plunging necklines and glossy haircuts, the conventional wisdom was forming, as it always does, around which campaign was the current cycle's "unstoppable juggernaut." Those stories are essentially about the candidates' early fund-raising prowess -- and to some degree about which campaign does the best job managing the opinions of political reporters -- but as more voters focus on the race, they create a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy, as people always want to back a winner.
But that kind of support is soft, and while Clinton still enjoys a commanding nationwide lead -- she was 26 points ahead of Edwards in the CNN poll -- that lead's been melting down in recent weeks. The race in the early primary states is a lot closer than the numbers nationwide. Obama leads the field in Iowa, where all three of the top Dems are within spitting distance -- less than seven points separate Edwards and Obama -- and Clinton leads Obama by an average of just three points in New Hampshire.
Democratic primary voters may still be looking for the "anti-Hillary," and Edwards' aggressively populist message may be resonating with Iowa caucus-goers in a way that comfortably middle-class pundits can't grasp; polls show that a majority of Americans believe the country's in recession, and the economy is displacing Iraq as voters' top issue in 2008.
Clinton and Obama have been sniping at each other relentlessly, so despite Clinton's massive cash advantage, it's not hard to imagine a scenario in which Edwards, creeping stealthily by the Obama-Clinton food fights and speaking to a middle class that knows it's being sold down the river, might come out on top (or second) in Iowa. That could force the media to write a new story of campaign 2008 and lead to a ripple effect in New Hampshire, Michigan, Nevada and down the line.
Ultimately, it's understandable that electability would be an imperative for progressives and Democrats after being pummeled and bruised by eight years of Bush, although there's some evidence that it's much more important to political writers than to the electorate. And the Clintons, despite carrying some heavy baggage, have won four high-stakes elections in a row. It's hard to deny that there's some appeal in that after the tepid campaigns of Kerry in '04 and Gore before him.
But I see it differently. I see revelations of Giuliani's perfidy emerging week after week, Tom Tancredo warning of the coming Mexi-fascist invasion and the party's nativist wing shredding Saint John McCain -- erstwhile media darling -- for letting it happen, as Romney and Huckabee engage in open sectarian conflict before crowds of scary-looking GOP primary voters. And it occurs to me that if ever there were a year to vote for the candidate whose values matched one's own, it's this one, because if the eventual nominee manages to lose to the fetid corpse that is the Republican "brand," then they should just fold up the whole Democratic tent and start from scratch.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: Rune on Dec 16, 2007 1:25 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Edwards is no stranger to gobs of corporate cash, himself. He is an experienced political insider who has done a good job of selling out when he wanted the bucks and when he wanted to get on someone else's (Kerry) ticket. He was a co-sponsor of legislation authorizing the illegal, preemptive invasion and occupation of Iraq as well as the PATRIOT ACT. However, he has admitted the error of his ways and reversed course in those areas while getting behind some truly progressive (or at least anti-fascist) policies as a presidential candidate, which sets apart from, Clinton and Obama who are much more reluctant to go to the lengths Edwards has in siding with the poor and disadvantage groups that encompass ever more of America, to say nothing of having far more experience than Clinton or Obama as a national candidate and elected official, no matter what sort of propaganda the Clinton camp pumps out about that.
It is no surprise, then, that Edwards should show up as a much stronger candidate that Clinton or Obama when he is presented as the potential opposition to the anti-populist, anti-progress candidates being fronted by the GOP. It is also no surprise that he does better than Kucinich, who does not even take himself seriously enough to get an organization on the ground and open a single campaign office in early primary states, such as Iowa. For all the right things Kucinich says, he does not do nearly as many obvious and necessary things that mark a serious leader and contender for the presidency as does Edwards, who is unmistakably less progressive and defiant than the rhetoric coming out of Kucinich's mouth.
If Edwards does not get the Democratic nomination, he could do very well for himself and his country to leave the Democratic Party and run as Third Party--or even independent--party. That one move just might save the immediate future of the country, and should do much to reverse the nearly complete merger of the Republican-lite Democratic Party with the genuine article the Democrats are working so hard and carefully to serve and protect from their perch as the new majority in both houses of Congress.
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» experience campaigning
Posted by: kancha
» "[F]ar more experience than Clinton or Obama as a national candidate and elected official"
Posted by: Rune
» No, Obama was never "a constitutional law professor"
Posted by: Rune
» Any candidate as long as it's Edwards?
Posted by: kancha
» RE: You go rune!
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» now that it has majority?
Posted by: jwg
» Forgot one thing...
Posted by: kancha
» How charming!
Posted by: Rune
» RE: Being Smart and of Good Intention...
Posted by: gazooks
» RE: How charming!
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: Forgot one thing...
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: No, Obama was never "a constitutional law professor"
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: experience campaigning
Posted by: hilaryuk
» RE: experience campaigning
Posted by: lisaisalefty
Comments are closed-
Posted by: CatDad on Dec 16, 2007 2:17 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Bill were man of principled progressive convictions, I'd say "yes," let's ignore his many faults and support his wife....He is no principled progressive....and as hard as it is for some on the Left to admit, he is a serial offender when it comes to sexually exploiting female subordinates. I do not want Bill Clinton and his ticking time bomb libido back in the White House. His weaknesses are too much of a liability for progressives....Besides...we need to move away from the Bush/Clinton monopoly on the presidency before this nation devolves into a monarchy.
I see signs of political sloppiness in Obama that are reminiscent of John Kerry....Like Obama claiming that his living in Europe as a child gave him the foreign policy credentials to be president. I'm sorry, but this nation hasn't progressed enough to elect a black president...The only black person who could win the presidency is the master white power structure sycophant known as Colin Powell...but he has been burned, used and abused by the Bush's and he's too bitter to get involved presidential politics.
John Edward's isn't perfect...but he's the most electable progressive.
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» This nation hasn't progressed enough...
Posted by: kancha
» RE: This nation hasn't progressed enough...
Posted by: CatDad
» Not to quibble, but . . .
Posted by: Rune
» Stange--two unelectibles in the lead. Are the neo-cons picking our candidate?
Posted by: johngary
» RE: Yes....Edwards IS Our Best Bet....
Posted by: Bibsi
Comments are closed-
Posted by: nochicagoboys on Dec 16, 2007 2:34 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Both are beholden to corporate money, therefore both will bow to the will of those who provided the means to put them into office -- and it won't be the people.
Please don't be swayed by a corporate media that wants you to believe it'll be one-or-the-other on the democratic ticket. Research and determine which candidate is true to democratic ideals, and isn't beholden to corporate interests. Otherwise, there will be no structural changes; only window-dressing.
I view John Edwards as a decent and honorable man. His observations concerning the problems facing most American citizens resonates loudly with me. In my view, he, along with Dennis Kucinich, form the only base of sincerity and hopefulness (so far) in this upcoming presidential election.
Both gentlemen understand the plight of the typical American, and either would do their best to fight the insidious degradation of our democratic ideals, and communities, from the "rape-and-plunder" by the military-security-industrial mechanism that strangles our liberties, and jeopardizes the real security of this country.
We can no longer afford to have leaders who are influenced by, and indebted to, corporate money and agendas. The people must, again, enjoy that privilege -- not the corporate elite.
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» RE: Let's start the paradigm shift from "corporate rule" back to "people rule"
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Let's start the paradigm shift from "corporate rule" back to "people rule"
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: "I would have voted to confirm John Roberts to the Supreme Court" - Obama
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE:We can no longer afford to have leaders who are influenced by (ok, yes, fine)
Posted by: aka_bozo
» RE: We can no longer afford to have leaders who are influenced by (ok, yes, fine)
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: We can no longer afford to have leaders who are influenced by (ok, yes, fine)
Posted by: Bibsi
Comments are closed-
Posted by: dustinblythe on Dec 16, 2007 2:53 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For my money, that is John Edwards. It is important to note, as this article does, that Edwards does the best of any of the Democratic candidates when it comes to matching up with anyone the Republicans may nominate. That is important because it not only shows us his strength in a general election scenario but it also means that Edwards will be a boost, not a drag, to candidates down the ticket in 2008. Here in Indiana, we will have many important elections in 2008 but two of the most important will be my local Congressional race and the Gubernatorial race. Those races will be tough enough to win without a divisive target at the top of the ticket. As a State Representative who has endorsed Edwards told me, "Edwards is the only one who will not kill us [in Indiana] in 2008." How true.
John Edwards will work for votes in every state, not just the "swing" states. He will fight for every vote and will not stand for any election shenanigans. Edwards wanted to fight on in Ohio in 2004. That is the kind of spirit we need in a leader and the kind of spirit I see in Iowa. I am not counting this guy out until the bitter end.
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» RE: There is no substitute for victory
Posted by: skingk
» RE: There is no substitute for victory - and he is walking the walk
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: There is no substitute for victory
Posted by: Bibsi
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Hans B on Dec 16, 2007 3:20 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If I were American I'd vote for Edwards despite his white male status, since he seems to be the only one among the frontrunners to have recognized that centrism is not the answer to Bush extremism, and that the disastrous legacy of the present administration can only be undone with a hard turn to the left. But I could live with another candidate winning the nomination as long as the Democrats win the White House and both houses of Congress. If a Republican wins it's the end of the world.
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» RE: Taboos
Posted by: blackie4aces
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Posted by: sofla100 on Dec 16, 2007 5:41 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Dems Would be Smart To Run Edwards
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: Dems Would be Smart To Run Edwards
Posted by: Bibsi
Comments are closed-
Posted by: wli on Dec 16, 2007 6:19 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The electoral system cannot be taken at face value. Whatever all this Hillary vs. Obama vs. Edwards hoopla is about, it's not about who's going to run the country; that has nothing to do with elections.
Look to our own oligarchs and princelings if you want some idea of what's going on in the circles of power. Elected representatives are their lackeys at best.
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» RE: far beyond hopelessly naive
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: aka_bozo on Dec 16, 2007 6:45 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Personally, I’ve always thought Edwards would be judged like Kerry. The typical dumb-ass peasant might be dumber-that-dirt (obviously), but these people KNOW a con-artist when they see one. This is yet another area the fascists have the advantage on the socialists. The Republicans never tell the dumb-ass peasants they’ll get help (other than getting even with “those people”, but THAT’S punishment to others – not help). Bush was always viewed as “one of the boys”, in much the same way that a prince is held in high esteem by his own peasants. Modern Socialist parties, like the Democratic Party, will always be at a disadvantage when one of its rich politicians “come `round” telling the peasants “we’re here to help YOU”. The peasants know this is BS and vote accordingly.
Fascism has natural advantages over Socialism, as its based on the natural fear and stupidity of people – which is inexhaustible. Socialism’s only advantage is intellect; which makes it a non-starter in THIS country!
Edwards is another rich socialist, pretending to be “one of the peasants”, and during an election the fascists would be reminding the peasants of this constantly.
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» RE: Kerry.
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: Modern Socialist
Posted by: aka_bozo
» RE: Modern Socialist
Posted by: CatDad
» Anyone calling the democrats socialist...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Socialism is the fantasy that all the assholes disappear
Posted by: aka_bozo
» Re: I guess the term is subjective.
Posted by: aka_bozo
» RE: A brilliant PR move that sadly worked
Posted by: aka_bozo
» RE: A brilliant PR move that sadly worked
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: They've lost so much credibility in trying to speak for the working classes
Posted by: aka_bozo
» RE: A brilliant PR move that sadly worked
Posted by: blackie4aces
» Catdad. I think aka bozo is Michael Hardesty. He is a reactionary libertarian and much else besides
Posted by: yellow
» You got me. But, I’m actually Hardesty boss.
Posted by: aka_bozo
» RE: Kerry.
Posted by: Bibsi
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Rod on Dec 16, 2007 7:53 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They all want to be re-elected, and they will push their platform the first 4 years at least. They will not get all of it, but they will shift things their way and that is something.
Plus the president sets the party platform.
In my case Edwards has the platform I like best.
So no only will I vote for him when I can, I also made a campaign contribution ( I call this voting too) I am not rich, but I do what I can.
I am not likely to vote for Hillary, but if the other candidate is bad enough I will.
YMMV
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» Real change will never happen by holding your nose
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Do you really think the country can survive 4 to 8 more years of fascist rule?
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» Doesn't much matter any more. Really.
Posted by: RickHarlan
» RE: The crisis is one of spirit
Posted by: aka_bozo
» RE: Doesn't much matter any more. Really.
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Do you really think the country can survive 4 to 8 more years of fascist rule?
Posted by: nochicagoboys
Comments are closed-
Posted by: PaulK on Dec 16, 2007 9:17 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: profedwards on Dec 16, 2007 10:42 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The man doesn't take a dime from Corporate America and thus does not have a war chest like his Dem competition.
Personally, I would rather have a candidate that is beholden to the PEOPLE, and ONLY the people, of this nation.
John Edwards is not the worst choice on face value - not by far, but if you think he's the best, you're not thinking hard enough.
As soon as I familiarized myself with his healthcare plan, he lost my vote for good. The Kucinich/Conyers plan for TRUE universal healthcare (Edwards' so sweetly still includes his insurance company friends) is what Americans DESERVE and DEMAND. No one gets turned down, no one gets bogged down with bills, and it costs less - from the cradle to the grave.
Dennis Kucinich has my vote - even if I have to write him in.
If you can't vote your values, what CAN you vote for? This is the time to make a REAL change, "electablity" be damned. WE decide who's electable. If we get out and vote with our hearts instead of staring at graphs constructed by the media (interesting that Kucinich isn't on there...), we could become a strong nation of healthy people who were again respected by the global community.
Kucinch will REPEAL the patriot acts,start GREEN WORK PROJECTS, get us out of NAFTA/WTO and so much more.
KUCINICH IN 2008!
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» RE: Kucinich not Serious?
Posted by: Rune
» the problem with Kucinich
Posted by: antiapathy
» RE: changes
Posted by: solrev
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Swatopluk on Dec 17, 2007 2:00 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Although it would probably cost some votes in the South, I'd propose a ticket Obama-Edwards (or the other way around). Edwards running as independent would under the "winner-takes-all" principle guarantee the GOPsters to win. If that were the case, a preemptive nuclear strike on Washington would begin to look appealing ;-).
Given what some of the GOPsters say and promise, they would face the criminal courts in several democratic countries (and the Huckster's promise to forcefully deport 12 million people in his first 120 days in office is one of the more harmless things).
Something else that should not be forgotten: The GOP must suffer more extreme losses in congress (especially the senate where Lieberman still holds his ex-party hostage) or it will not matter that a Dem sits in the WH.
Even a spineless bunch like the current Dems could prevent a lot of evil, if they got filibuster-proof.
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Posted by: primalscream on Dec 17, 2007 3:32 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So how do the Dems blow it? Run Clinton or Obama. Clinton's high negatives are a gift they should not give to the GOP (hell, SHE'S a gift to the GOP), and Obama will be labeled "unready." I personally think he will be president in two or three more election cycles, however.
As for this one, let's not give it away! Especially if the Republicans are foolish enough to run Huckabee, but no matter who they run, Edwards could make 2008 the cakewalk the Democrats should have had a long time ago.
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» RE: Don't look a gift horse ...
Posted by: Wexler
» RE: Don't look a gift horse ...
Posted by: madaha
» RE: Don't look a gift horse ...
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Don't look a gift horse ...
Posted by: Hans B
» RE: Don't look a gift horse ...
Posted by: Bibsi
Comments are closed-
Posted by: nodozejoze on Dec 17, 2007 3:33 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh, if she gets the nomination (and she still stands an excellent chance) she will triangulate with the best of her husbands execrable reputation. She will however, lose the Democratic majorities in both House and Senate--just like her husband did--simply because she is a corporate hack who doesn´t support the progressive "wing" of her Party.
Obama is charismatic but another conservative, corporate Dem whose mentor was Joe Lieberman (who supports McCain). So who are we left with...?
Well, Edwards talks the talk and is as close a "progressive" Dem who is "electable" as we are going to get. Is he the best? No. Kucinich is by far. But Kucinich will get nowhere and will fold like a sheet of tracing paper some convention time.
But progressives in the Dem party and out can rally around Edwards and push him, regularly, repeatedly and he just might be responsive. With all the rhetoric he is using he can be held to the fire and push a better agenda than any or the more corporatist Dems would. Plus, as the article points out, he beats ALL Republicans by good margins and wider ones than either Clinton or Obama. Is he perfect? No. But since we don´t vote for perfect, we should go with what´s good and Edwards is right on.
I´m a Green. I don´t vote for Dems. But on a national scale I think Edwards is the way to go. And on local scales, we need Greens and other third party people in order to open up the system.
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» "I am a Green, I don't vote for Dems."
Posted by: Ellie1
» RE: "I am a Green, I don't vote for Dems."
Posted by: nodozejoze
» RE: "I am a Green, I don't vote for Dems."
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: dwards, baggage and the election
Posted by: Bibsi
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Suzon on Dec 17, 2007 3:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I do think that it's a common mistake to attribute destructive plots to greed. It may be that they are based upon a strong instinct for survival, a fear that others want to destroy you, so get your retaliation in first. After all, in the US the consequences of failure are great. Just think of those people in Katrina-lashed New Orleans.
Don't you think that the corporations (such as insurance companies and Big Pharma) which hire risk management consultants (used to be called "shysters") have evolved sophisticated strategies to manipulate public opinion? Including polls, of course. He who controls the question, can to a large degree control the answer.
It might have become second nature to put questions a certain way, but that is probably due to people having conspired (and been rewarded rather than punished for it).
Nevertheless, Josh, thanks for all you are doing to point out the fact it's Edwards who can actually beat any Republican candidate--the graphics are great!
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Posted by: robchapman on Dec 17, 2007 4:41 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author of this piece has not shown any insight about that.
The decisive segment of the electorate are married people with children. They remain the largest adult demographic and because they have consistently high voter participation rates, remain the majority in the electorate.
They are mainly concerned with affordable housing, steady and remunerative employment, quality education, affordable health care, transportation and crime.
Because the locality affects the interplay of the various factors which these voters evaluate, they tend to make their decision based less on their response to candidates' positions as on the sense that the candidate understands suburban life and responds to issues in a manner consistent with the voters' interest. For convenience, I will term this type of voter a relational voter.
People who read publications such as AlterNet tend to be much more issues oriented and respond to candidates' positions. For convenience, I will term this type of voter an issues voter.
As with all stereotypes, there is no particular individual who fits the category, but for purposes of discussion, let's pretend that there are only these two well defined types of voters.
It seems to be difficult for the issues' oriented voter to comprehend the viewpoint of the relational voter and vice versa.
The GOP since Reagan has been successful in packaging their candidates and their message in ways that strongly appeal to the relational voter.
It is not so much that the relational voter would "have a beer" with a GOP candidate, as that the GOP markets its candidates as someone a relational voter would meet at a civic or recreational event and bond with.
The relational voter then has the sense, that the GOP candidate will "make the right decision."
Edwards seems to understand this. His telling of his life story in inspirational terms and his use of anecdotes like when his father explained the rules of fighting to little Johnny create the sort of relational bond that the GOP has been successful in developing.
If issues voters are looking for a victory in the November election- and their will to power is always suspect- they would well to look for the candidate who church-going mortgage paying voters will find appealing.
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» This poll says "x" and that poll says "y" so it must be "z"?
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Who are the voters
Posted by: aka_bozo
» How is your sales pitch today?
Posted by: nochicagoboys
Comments are closed-
Posted by: PJT on Dec 17, 2007 4:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: m1acha3 on Dec 17, 2007 4:48 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: THE SOUTHERN VOTE
Posted by: aka_bozo
» RE: THE SOUTHERN VOTE
Posted by: jmp3954
» RE: THE SOUTHERN VOTE
Posted by: m1acha3
» RE: THE SOUTHERN VOTE
Posted by: jmooney
Comments are closed-
Posted by: robchapman on Dec 17, 2007 4:57 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hilary Clinton is a conservative Democrat?
Does this mean that the Democratic rank and file has decided that Progressivm is too pure and perfect to govern in a democracy?
Conservatives are now at parity with progressives, that is why Bush's attempt at conservative only government has failed.
Senator Clinton's philosophy articulated in her book, is built on compassionate communalism.
Clinton is a feminist and a progressive, and understands that effective governance must be inclusive.
The carpet bagging accusation is just stupid. What sort of a team would the Yankees be if they only took players from the State of New York?
Clinton has won two elections on her own in NYS unforgiving political environment.
She won every demographic and a quarter of NYS Republicans- a hardy and opinionated lot.
Clinton has a distinguishe legislative record based on numerous and wide-ranging bipartisan sponsorship of key bills.
These are Hilary's accomplishments- made without Bill's assistance.
Hilary Clinton has the track record of political and legislative accomplishment, the savvy and of all, the steely toughness needed to be an effective President.
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» RE: Democrats must articulate values
Posted by: nodozejoze
» RE: Democrats must articulate values
Posted by: CatDad
Comments are closed-
Posted by: VannaLaRoche on Dec 17, 2007 5:42 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the choice is between Clinton and McCain, who cares if the election is fraudulent or not?
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» RE: Why Edwards is marginalized
Posted by: Wexler
» RE: Why Edwards is marginalized
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» NC in 2004 = USA in 2008?
Posted by: NWCrow
» RE: Why Edwards is marginalized
Posted by: CatDad
» But STILL....
Posted by: aka_bozo
» RE: But STILL....
Posted by: CatDad
» Yeah, excellent point about the 2004 elections.
Posted by: aka_bozo
» RE: Why Edwards is marginalized
Posted by: Bibsi
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Ben Sen on Dec 17, 2007 7:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: A Country That Elects a Bush
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: A Country That Elects a Bush (You're begging the question that he was.)
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Well, there's ALSO a "wide chasm" between Hillary and Bush ...
Posted by: aka_bozo
» Line, grid, 3-dimensional model -- it doesn't matter...
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Electability = charisma
Posted by: DanoM
» RE: If this was true: electability = charisma then:
Posted by: aka_bozo
Comments are closed-
Posted by: left-leaning-libertarian on Dec 17, 2007 9:14 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One of the things I've been telling people is that Edwards is probably the best, most-electable choice we could make for the general, and, believe me, we need to win BIG in '08 if anything is going to change for the better! The pundits ignore or trash Edwards because he is the guy who actually wants to affect that change; unfortunately, too many people have unwittingly bought into their line of BS.
All I can say is; watch the caucus results on Jan 3; you will be VERY surprised (and so will all those idiot pundits!)
Happy holidays!
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» RE: THANK YOU! It's about time somebody said it!
Posted by: mwildfire
» RE: THANK YOU! It's about time somebody said it!
Posted by: left-leaning-libertarian
» RE: THANK YOU! It's about time somebody said it!
Posted by: Chloe2005
» Akron, Westfield and Hawarden, IOWA are my Grandfather's area and my heartland
Posted by: Prairie Waif
» RE: THANK YOU! It's about time somebody said it!
Posted by: blackie4aces
Comments are closed-
Posted by: johngary on Dec 17, 2007 9:37 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Real incomes are shrinking, ability to send kids to college is collapsing(of course, who wants an educated electorate), health care has become unaffordable, wars suck away our financial resources, inflation makes life miserable (eggs @ $6.39 a doz, gas @ $3.50 a gal and going up, fuel oil--Oh well you know).
And only one candidate really speaks to our pain--Edwards. But those of the upper class, who control the media, ignore him. You know why!
The power of the middle class will not be denied, if not now--WHEN!
It is time to save America.
It is time to fight back!!
We of the middle class are the majority, and we can take back our country.
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Posted by: monkeywrench on Dec 17, 2007 9:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The fact is, we don't hear as much from Edwards as from Hillary and Obama in the mainstream media because Edwards – handsome, smart, progresssive and tenacious as hell – is the candidate who scares the crap out of the other side, and thus is being marginalized by their bought-and-paid-for media.
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» RE: Of course!
Posted by: nodozejoze
» RE: Of course!
Posted by: nochicagoboys
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Posted by: ScottP on Dec 17, 2007 9:44 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The same Edwards who conceded Ohio?
Posted by: nodozejoze
» RE: The same Edwards who conceded Ohio?
Posted by: CatDad
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Posted by: thealltheone on Dec 17, 2007 10:04 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: slim but best chance
Posted by: Chloe2005
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Posted by: Sojourner on Dec 17, 2007 10:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's called "charisma." But if I feel paying attention as a burden, I can appreciate the toll it must be taking on the candidates. Politics remains trial by fire. I can't wait until it's over.
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Posted by: ReallyBearish on Dec 17, 2007 11:42 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The above article is by Paul Krugman on why the sub-prime mess isn't going away. The economy determines who gets elected President. It ain't going to be a Republican now or in the near future. None of them are electable.
Regarding the South, the Republicans of the early 20th century did fine without their vote. Today's Democrats can ignore them as well as long as the former "Red States" wake up and realize what's happened to them. (Amazing how Depressions do that!)
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» Examine the future and the past.
Posted by: aka_bozo
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Posted by: drricklippin on Dec 17, 2007 11:53 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"And the Clintons, despite carrying some heavy baggage, have won four high-stakes elections in a row(my bolding). It's hard to deny that there's some appeal in that after the tepid campaigns of Kerry in '04 and Gore before him"
I believe Hillary may be more populist than she is letting on? But she needs to get elected
My test is that, after ending the war, Hillary fights like hell for election reform.
My tickets-
Clinton/Richardson 2008
Edwards/Obama-2016
Rick Lippin
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» RE: Clintons Know How to Win
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: Clintons Know How to Win
Posted by: thealltheone
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Posted by: makeadifference on Dec 17, 2007 4:09 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE:Only ask people that have been following candidates positions
Posted by: aka_bozo
» RE: Only ask people that have been following candidates positions
Posted by: niliadis
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Posted by: Prairie Waif on Dec 17, 2007 9:25 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They need only "dial-in" their policy after it has been formed in some hedge fund run by a family friend or Daddy's co-worker at the hedge fund.
John Edwards can call home but I think he will just get an honest opinion from a father that worked in a cotton mill and raised a son who learned to work and think for himself to become successful.
John Edwards worked his way to and through a University Education, Law School and developed a Law Practice that, yes, made him rich, but also set precedent for product safety, integrity of service providers (hospitals, denial of worker's compensation, denial of insurance [i.e. a la Katrina, etc.). Without lawyers that take on contingency cases, where would people who cannot even believe in the possibility of justice get a chance at legal redress and thus justice?
We have no idea what John Edward's earned on his contingency cases, was it volume or percentage? Then, take into consideration the cost of running a law office with journals costing upwards of $800/year for one subscription. Think of all the paralegals, typists and associates it would take to run a legal firm and then understand that all of this is based on a partial caseload of contingency cases.
No, it isn't vile or evil, it is how I sought justice from the city in which I live. I broke a foot on a unseen sidewalk obstacle, I spent almost 1 year with 3 surgeries and a bone graft with pins to put me back together so I could walk.
I live on a very sparse income. If I hadn't been able to have a lawyer willing to work on a contingency basis, I wouldn't have been able to exist, Worker's Compensation took 2 months to start and ended after 5 months.
It also really was about bringing the city to task, by ONE MORE INJURED CITIZEN, for their lackadaisical, if existent, maintenance plan.
Both were accomplished.
I spent a year on my couch due to the injury and another 4 months learning how to walk again. Do you not think that "the poor" should have access to lawyers? I wouldn't have cared if I got 15%, I wanted no one else to have to sit on a couch while watching the bills pile-up while waiting for the next round of X-rays and surgeries.
I'd like a President who figured out how to make it on his own, based upon what he learned from his Dad who worked at a Cotton Mill; I don't want another kid who came from wealth to tell me how "they made it and know how to work and make a difference with change. What change? From one fashion designer to another? From one board of directors to another?
To tell me you have 35 years of experience and realize that MORE than half of that, of which you are counting, is riding on the coat-tails of your ELECTED spouse, is some GRANDIOSITY of thought and delusion.
I'll listen most to the candidates that came up from the people who made the food for the church
or VFW supper, not those that gave the biggest donation and never showed up at the place except when being acknowledge for their "generosity;" they need to learn agape.
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» RE: I'll vote for the guy who CANNOT call "home" to ask "DAD" for connections to Wall Street, etc.
Posted by: niliadis
» Elizabeth Edwards chose to live her life normally, despite cancer; that means at John's side.
Posted by: Prairie Waif
» RE: lizabeth Edwards chose to live her life normally, despite cancer; that means at John's side.
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: niliadis on Dec 17, 2007 9:50 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Why the "entire name" usage? Too much Bill O'Reilly?
Posted by: Prairie Waif
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Posted by: jdbarron on Dec 18, 2007 3:39 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When it's "just sloppy" the errors and omissions cut both ways. When ALL of the errors and omissions cut the same way, it's an organized, directed effort, use whatever term you want to. But if the term you choose doesn't imply (or even excludes) INTENT, it is just plain inaccurate!
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Posted by: snideelf on Dec 18, 2007 10:50 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So if Clinton is the Democratic nominee, the stupid who hate Clinton would go and vote for whomever the Repug nominee would be simply to vote AGAINST Clinton.
The same will happen if Obama is nominated.
The people of America vote stupid, that is why the Chimp was elected TWICE.
Along with election fraud, Alfred E. Neuman was handed the presidency.
The stupid are still mighty proud of themselves for "electing" America's first little fart dictator.
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Posted by: riotoustanpdx on Dec 18, 2007 5:03 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we are to look at Issues that will predominate our country going into the election less than eleven months from today, we leave out the one candidate that has the best record and experience.
Bill Richardson is by far the candidate with the best record and the best Plan for 2009-2012 when it comes to the Great Issue of 2008.
The League of Conservation Voters endorses Bill Richardson for a number of reasons, among them is the probability that the Whole Environment, not limited to considerations pertinent to Global Warming, will be the One Great Issue of 2008.
Some believe the Wars, in Iraq, Iran and the other hot spots that will arise.
But, The War Issue is an Environmental issue tied to Peak Oil, energy independence, and corporate greed. Alternative energies, then, are key issues, and having a Plan to extricate ourselves from the dependence upon oil/fossil fuels will be critical independent of causality of global warming. The other Green issues are also critical to our future, some of which have little impact on global temperatures.
Water is an Environmental Issue that is in crisis, and its availability and equitable distribution has nothing to do with global temperatures in the immediate future; water is an "E" issue i itself, and is tied to the hegemony of the Corporate State versus the needs of the population. It is important enough in itself to call for a Constitutional Amendment for the fair distribution of water-for-people before water-owned-by-businesses.
The Immigration issues are also "E" issues. Whether we want to admit this or not, we have a dependent economy, and need foreign labor to eke out the economy that we have, sinking or not. Farms and much of the service industry are rife with questionable practices that pollute air, water and those who labor to keep those industries alive, while farming, janitorial services, and other industries dump an untold amount of chemicals into the local environments in which they operate. The depletion of nutrients in the soil, and soil ruination, are creeping up as the availability of land decreases, leading us rapidly into another Environmental Crises that will drop within the next four years.
Bill Richardson is the only candidate with a Plan to make changes in how we address these issues, while the others and the media that report on the various campaigns ignore the looming crises related to ALL Environmental Issues, echoing slogans about global warming while offering a dearth of solutions.
Perhaps there is real fear of a strong Richardson movement in the Corporate boardrooms, because the Other Bill is one candidate whose Plan, if put into effect, will change the way we do business in America, and bring about some those (empty) promises made by Obama and Edwards. That is to say, it is Richardson's experience and leadership that is needed to bring about the change that others talk about, yet have no Strategy to achieve. With Richardson, we will see much more of the local movement take root, the states will be empowered to set higher environmental and entrepreneurial standards, and the Solar Age will more rapidly come about, freeing us from the dominance of global corporations.
Thomas A Nagy, Global Cooling Initiative
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Posted by: coñoloco on Dec 19, 2007 1:42 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
travel to Iowa.
That tells a ton about prospects of this country.You bet Guilliani,Edwards,all of them
do have at their disposals charter jets.
Who pays for it,motivations ?
Any hope for the struggling?Do not think so.
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Posted by: Zigo Mandelbaum on Dec 20, 2007 10:09 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: bthespoon on Dec 22, 2007 3:23 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Staggo on Dec 22, 2007 6:47 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Racumin on Dec 24, 2007 11:48 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why can't people see past stupid candidates. How about changing the system. Start with a real third party. Who cares if the Democrats lose, vote Green. Democrats are just as sleazy as Republicans.
How about changing the electoral process? How about not being fat consumers?
This is all so stupid to me
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Posted by: Rune on Dec 16, 2007 1:25 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Edwards is no stranger to gobs of corporate cash, himself. He is an experienced political insider who has done a good job of selling out when he wanted the bucks and when he wanted to get on someone else's (Kerry) ticket. He was a co-sponsor of legislation authorizing the illegal, preemptive invasion and occupation of Iraq as well as the PATRIOT ACT. However, he has admitted the error of his ways and reversed course in those areas while getting behind some truly progressive (or at least anti-fascist) policies as a presidential candidate, which sets apart from, Clinton and Obama who are much more reluctant to go to the lengths Edwards has in siding with the poor and disadvantage groups that encompass ever more of America, to say nothing of having far more experience than Clinton or Obama as a national candidate and elected official, no matter what sort of propaganda the Clinton camp pumps out about that.
It is no surprise, then, that Edwards should show up as a much stronger candidate that Clinton or Obama when he is presented as the potential opposition to the anti-populist, anti-progress candidates being fronted by the GOP. It is also no surprise that he does better than Kucinich, who does not even take himself seriously enough to get an organization on the ground and open a single campaign office in early primary states, such as Iowa. For all the right things Kucinich says, he does not do nearly as many obvious and necessary things that mark a serious leader and contender for the presidency as does Edwards, who is unmistakably less progressive and defiant than the rhetoric coming out of Kucinich's mouth.
If Edwards does not get the Democratic nomination, he could do very well for himself and his country to leave the Democratic Party and run as Third Party--or even independent--party. That one move just might save the immediate future of the country, and should do much to reverse the nearly complete merger of the Republican-lite Democratic Party with the genuine article the Democrats are working so hard and carefully to serve and protect from their perch as the new majority in both houses of Congress.
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» experience campaigning
Posted by: kancha
» "[F]ar more experience than Clinton or Obama as a national candidate and elected official"
Posted by: Rune
» No, Obama was never "a constitutional law professor"
Posted by: Rune
» Any candidate as long as it's Edwards?
Posted by: kancha
» RE: You go rune!
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» now that it has majority?
Posted by: jwg
» Forgot one thing...
Posted by: kancha
» How charming!
Posted by: Rune
» RE: Being Smart and of Good Intention...
Posted by: gazooks
» RE: How charming!
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: Forgot one thing...
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: No, Obama was never "a constitutional law professor"
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: experience campaigning
Posted by: hilaryuk
» RE: experience campaigning
Posted by: lisaisalefty
Comments are closed-
Posted by: CatDad on Dec 16, 2007 2:17 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Bill were man of principled progressive convictions, I'd say "yes," let's ignore his many faults and support his wife....He is no principled progressive....and as hard as it is for some on the Left to admit, he is a serial offender when it comes to sexually exploiting female subordinates. I do not want Bill Clinton and his ticking time bomb libido back in the White House. His weaknesses are too much of a liability for progressives....Besides...we need to move away from the Bush/Clinton monopoly on the presidency before this nation devolves into a monarchy.
I see signs of political sloppiness in Obama that are reminiscent of John Kerry....Like Obama claiming that his living in Europe as a child gave him the foreign policy credentials to be president. I'm sorry, but this nation hasn't progressed enough to elect a black president...The only black person who could win the presidency is the master white power structure sycophant known as Colin Powell...but he has been burned, used and abused by the Bush's and he's too bitter to get involved presidential politics.
John Edward's isn't perfect...but he's the most electable progressive.
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» This nation hasn't progressed enough...
Posted by: kancha
» RE: This nation hasn't progressed enough...
Posted by: CatDad
» Not to quibble, but . . .
Posted by: Rune
» Stange--two unelectibles in the lead. Are the neo-cons picking our candidate?
Posted by: johngary
» RE: Yes....Edwards IS Our Best Bet....
Posted by: Bibsi
Comments are closed-
Posted by: nochicagoboys on Dec 16, 2007 2:34 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Both are beholden to corporate money, therefore both will bow to the will of those who provided the means to put them into office -- and it won't be the people.
Please don't be swayed by a corporate media that wants you to believe it'll be one-or-the-other on the democratic ticket. Research and determine which candidate is true to democratic ideals, and isn't beholden to corporate interests. Otherwise, there will be no structural changes; only window-dressing.
I view John Edwards as a decent and honorable man. His observations concerning the problems facing most American citizens resonates loudly with me. In my view, he, along with Dennis Kucinich, form the only base of sincerity and hopefulness (so far) in this upcoming presidential election.
Both gentlemen understand the plight of the typical American, and either would do their best to fight the insidious degradation of our democratic ideals, and communities, from the "rape-and-plunder" by the military-security-industrial mechanism that strangles our liberties, and jeopardizes the real security of this country.
We can no longer afford to have leaders who are influenced by, and indebted to, corporate money and agendas. The people must, again, enjoy that privilege -- not the corporate elite.
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» RE: Let's start the paradigm shift from "corporate rule" back to "people rule"
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Let's start the paradigm shift from "corporate rule" back to "people rule"
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: "I would have voted to confirm John Roberts to the Supreme Court" - Obama
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE:We can no longer afford to have leaders who are influenced by (ok, yes, fine)
Posted by: aka_bozo
» RE: We can no longer afford to have leaders who are influenced by (ok, yes, fine)
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: We can no longer afford to have leaders who are influenced by (ok, yes, fine)
Posted by: Bibsi
Comments are closed-
Posted by: dustinblythe on Dec 16, 2007 2:53 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For my money, that is John Edwards. It is important to note, as this article does, that Edwards does the best of any of the Democratic candidates when it comes to matching up with anyone the Republicans may nominate. That is important because it not only shows us his strength in a general election scenario but it also means that Edwards will be a boost, not a drag, to candidates down the ticket in 2008. Here in Indiana, we will have many important elections in 2008 but two of the most important will be my local Congressional race and the Gubernatorial race. Those races will be tough enough to win without a divisive target at the top of the ticket. As a State Representative who has endorsed Edwards told me, "Edwards is the only one who will not kill us [in Indiana] in 2008." How true.
John Edwards will work for votes in every state, not just the "swing" states. He will fight for every vote and will not stand for any election shenanigans. Edwards wanted to fight on in Ohio in 2004. That is the kind of spirit we need in a leader and the kind of spirit I see in Iowa. I am not counting this guy out until the bitter end.
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» RE: There is no substitute for victory
Posted by: skingk
» RE: There is no substitute for victory - and he is walking the walk
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: There is no substitute for victory
Posted by: Bibsi
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Hans B on Dec 16, 2007 3:20 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If I were American I'd vote for Edwards despite his white male status, since he seems to be the only one among the frontrunners to have recognized that centrism is not the answer to Bush extremism, and that the disastrous legacy of the present administration can only be undone with a hard turn to the left. But I could live with another candidate winning the nomination as long as the Democrats win the White House and both houses of Congress. If a Republican wins it's the end of the world.
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» RE: Taboos
Posted by: blackie4aces
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Posted by: sofla100 on Dec 16, 2007 5:41 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Dems Would be Smart To Run Edwards
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: Dems Would be Smart To Run Edwards
Posted by: Bibsi
Comments are closed-
Posted by: wli on Dec 16, 2007 6:19 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The electoral system cannot be taken at face value. Whatever all this Hillary vs. Obama vs. Edwards hoopla is about, it's not about who's going to run the country; that has nothing to do with elections.
Look to our own oligarchs and princelings if you want some idea of what's going on in the circles of power. Elected representatives are their lackeys at best.
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» RE: far beyond hopelessly naive
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: aka_bozo on Dec 16, 2007 6:45 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Personally, I’ve always thought Edwards would be judged like Kerry. The typical dumb-ass peasant might be dumber-that-dirt (obviously), but these people KNOW a con-artist when they see one. This is yet another area the fascists have the advantage on the socialists. The Republicans never tell the dumb-ass peasants they’ll get help (other than getting even with “those people”, but THAT’S punishment to others – not help). Bush was always viewed as “one of the boys”, in much the same way that a prince is held in high esteem by his own peasants. Modern Socialist parties, like the Democratic Party, will always be at a disadvantage when one of its rich politicians “come `round” telling the peasants “we’re here to help YOU”. The peasants know this is BS and vote accordingly.
Fascism has natural advantages over Socialism, as its based on the natural fear and stupidity of people – which is inexhaustible. Socialism’s only advantage is intellect; which makes it a non-starter in THIS country!
Edwards is another rich socialist, pretending to be “one of the peasants”, and during an election the fascists would be reminding the peasants of this constantly.
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» RE: Kerry.
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: Modern Socialist
Posted by: aka_bozo
» RE: Modern Socialist
Posted by: CatDad
» Anyone calling the democrats socialist...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Socialism is the fantasy that all the assholes disappear
Posted by: aka_bozo
» Re: I guess the term is subjective.
Posted by: aka_bozo
» RE: A brilliant PR move that sadly worked
Posted by: aka_bozo
» RE: A brilliant PR move that sadly worked
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: They've lost so much credibility in trying to speak for the working classes
Posted by: aka_bozo
» RE: A brilliant PR move that sadly worked
Posted by: blackie4aces
» Catdad. I think aka bozo is Michael Hardesty. He is a reactionary libertarian and much else besides
Posted by: yellow
» You got me. But, I’m actually Hardesty boss.
Posted by: aka_bozo
» RE: Kerry.
Posted by: Bibsi
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Rod on Dec 16, 2007 7:53 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They all want to be re-elected, and they will push their platform the first 4 years at least. They will not get all of it, but they will shift things their way and that is something.
Plus the president sets the party platform.
In my case Edwards has the platform I like best.
So no only will I vote for him when I can, I also made a campaign contribution ( I call this voting too) I am not rich, but I do what I can.
I am not likely to vote for Hillary, but if the other candidate is bad enough I will.
YMMV
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» Real change will never happen by holding your nose
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Do you really think the country can survive 4 to 8 more years of fascist rule?
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» Doesn't much matter any more. Really.
Posted by: RickHarlan
» RE: The crisis is one of spirit
Posted by: aka_bozo
» RE: Doesn't much matter any more. Really.
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Do you really think the country can survive 4 to 8 more years of fascist rule?
Posted by: nochicagoboys
Comments are closed-
Posted by: PaulK on Dec 16, 2007 9:17 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: profedwards on Dec 16, 2007 10:42 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The man doesn't take a dime from Corporate America and thus does not have a war chest like his Dem competition.
Personally, I would rather have a candidate that is beholden to the PEOPLE, and ONLY the people, of this nation.
John Edwards is not the worst choice on face value - not by far, but if you think he's the best, you're not thinking hard enough.
As soon as I familiarized myself with his healthcare plan, he lost my vote for good. The Kucinich/Conyers plan for TRUE universal healthcare (Edwards' so sweetly still includes his insurance company friends) is what Americans DESERVE and DEMAND. No one gets turned down, no one gets bogged down with bills, and it costs less - from the cradle to the grave.
Dennis Kucinich has my vote - even if I have to write him in.
If you can't vote your values, what CAN you vote for? This is the time to make a REAL change, "electablity" be damned. WE decide who's electable. If we get out and vote with our hearts instead of staring at graphs constructed by the media (interesting that Kucinich isn't on there...), we could become a strong nation of healthy people who were again respected by the global community.
Kucinch will REPEAL the patriot acts,start GREEN WORK PROJECTS, get us out of NAFTA/WTO and so much more.
KUCINICH IN 2008!
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» RE: Kucinich not Serious?
Posted by: Rune
» the problem with Kucinich
Posted by: antiapathy
» RE: changes
Posted by: solrev
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Posted by: Swatopluk on Dec 17, 2007 2:00 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Although it would probably cost some votes in the South, I'd propose a ticket Obama-Edwards (or the other way around). Edwards running as independent would under the "winner-takes-all" principle guarantee the GOPsters to win. If that were the case, a preemptive nuclear strike on Washington would begin to look appealing ;-).
Given what some of the GOPsters say and promise, they would face the criminal courts in several democratic countries (and the Huckster's promise to forcefully deport 12 million people in his first 120 days in office is one of the more harmless things).
Something else that should not be forgotten: The GOP must suffer more extreme losses in congress (especially the senate where Lieberman still holds his ex-party hostage) or it will not matter that a Dem sits in the WH.
Even a spineless bunch like the current Dems could prevent a lot of evil, if they got filibuster-proof.
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Posted by: primalscream on Dec 17, 2007 3:32 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So how do the Dems blow it? Run Clinton or Obama. Clinton's high negatives are a gift they should not give to the GOP (hell, SHE'S a gift to the GOP), and Obama will be labeled "unready." I personally think he will be president in two or three more election cycles, however.
As for this one, let's not give it away! Especially if the Republicans are foolish enough to run Huckabee, but no matter who they run, Edwards could make 2008 the cakewalk the Democrats should have had a long time ago.
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» RE: Don't look a gift horse ...
Posted by: Wexler
» RE: Don't look a gift horse ...
Posted by: madaha
» RE: Don't look a gift horse ...
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Don't look a gift horse ...
Posted by: Hans B
» RE: Don't look a gift horse ...
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: nodozejoze on Dec 17, 2007 3:33 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh, if she gets the nomination (and she still stands an excellent chance) she will triangulate with the best of her husbands execrable reputation. She will however, lose the Democratic majorities in both House and Senate--just like her husband did--simply because she is a corporate hack who doesn´t support the progressive "wing" of her Party.
Obama is charismatic but another conservative, corporate Dem whose mentor was Joe Lieberman (who supports McCain). So who are we left with...?
Well, Edwards talks the talk and is as close a "progressive" Dem who is "electable" as we are going to get. Is he the best? No. Kucinich is by far. But Kucinich will get nowhere and will fold like a sheet of tracing paper some convention time.
But progressives in the Dem party and out can rally around Edwards and push him, regularly, repeatedly and he just might be responsive. With all the rhetoric he is using he can be held to the fire and push a better agenda than any or the more corporatist Dems would. Plus, as the article points out, he beats ALL Republicans by good margins and wider ones than either Clinton or Obama. Is he perfect? No. But since we don´t vote for perfect, we should go with what´s good and Edwards is right on.
I´m a Green. I don´t vote for Dems. But on a national scale I think Edwards is the way to go. And on local scales, we need Greens and other third party people in order to open up the system.
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» "I am a Green, I don't vote for Dems."
Posted by: Ellie1
» RE: "I am a Green, I don't vote for Dems."
Posted by: nodozejoze
» RE: "I am a Green, I don't vote for Dems."
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: dwards, baggage and the election
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: Suzon on Dec 17, 2007 3:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I do think that it's a common mistake to attribute destructive plots to greed. It may be that they are based upon a strong instinct for survival, a fear that others want to destroy you, so get your retaliation in first. After all, in the US the consequences of failure are great. Just think of those people in Katrina-lashed New Orleans.
Don't you think that the corporations (such as insurance companies and Big Pharma) which hire risk management consultants (used to be called "shysters") have evolved sophisticated strategies to manipulate public opinion? Including polls, of course. He who controls the question, can to a large degree control the answer.
It might have become second nature to put questions a certain way, but that is probably due to people having conspired (and been rewarded rather than punished for it).
Nevertheless, Josh, thanks for all you are doing to point out the fact it's Edwards who can actually beat any Republican candidate--the graphics are great!
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Posted by: robchapman on Dec 17, 2007 4:41 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author of this piece has not shown any insight about that.
The decisive segment of the electorate are married people with children. They remain the largest adult demographic and because they have consistently high voter participation rates, remain the majority in the electorate.
They are mainly concerned with affordable housing, steady and remunerative employment, quality education, affordable health care, transportation and crime.
Because the locality affects the interplay of the various factors which these voters evaluate, they tend to make their decision based less on their response to candidates' positions as on the sense that the candidate understands suburban life and responds to issues in a manner consistent with the voters' interest. For convenience, I will term this type of voter a relational voter.
People who read publications such as AlterNet tend to be much more issues oriented and respond to candidates' positions. For convenience, I will term this type of voter an issues voter.
As with all stereotypes, there is no particular individual who fits the category, but for purposes of discussion, let's pretend that there are only these two well defined types of voters.
It seems to be difficult for the issues' oriented voter to comprehend the viewpoint of the relational voter and vice versa.
The GOP since Reagan has been successful in packaging their candidates and their message in ways that strongly appeal to the relational voter.
It is not so much that the relational voter would "have a beer" with a GOP candidate, as that the GOP markets its candidates as someone a relational voter would meet at a civic or recreational event and bond with.
The relational voter then has the sense, that the GOP candidate will "make the right decision."
Edwards seems to understand this. His telling of his life story in inspirational terms and his use of anecdotes like when his father explained the rules of fighting to little Johnny create the sort of relational bond that the GOP has been successful in developing.
If issues voters are looking for a victory in the November election- and their will to power is always suspect- they would well to look for the candidate who church-going mortgage paying voters will find appealing.
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» This poll says "x" and that poll says "y" so it must be "z"?
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Who are the voters
Posted by: aka_bozo
» How is your sales pitch today?
Posted by: nochicagoboys
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Posted by: PJT on Dec 17, 2007 4:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: m1acha3 on Dec 17, 2007 4:48 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: THE SOUTHERN VOTE
Posted by: aka_bozo
» RE: THE SOUTHERN VOTE
Posted by: jmp3954
» RE: THE SOUTHERN VOTE
Posted by: m1acha3
» RE: THE SOUTHERN VOTE
Posted by: jmooney
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Posted by: robchapman on Dec 17, 2007 4:57 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hilary Clinton is a conservative Democrat?
Does this mean that the Democratic rank and file has decided that Progressivm is too pure and perfect to govern in a democracy?
Conservatives are now at parity with progressives, that is why Bush's attempt at conservative only government has failed.
Senator Clinton's philosophy articulated in her book, is built on compassionate communalism.
Clinton is a feminist and a progressive, and understands that effective governance must be inclusive.
The carpet bagging accusation is just stupid. What sort of a team would the Yankees be if they only took players from the State of New York?
Clinton has won two elections on her own in NYS unforgiving political environment.
She won every demographic and a quarter of NYS Republicans- a hardy and opinionated lot.
Clinton has a distinguishe legislative record based on numerous and wide-ranging bipartisan sponsorship of key bills.
These are Hilary's accomplishments- made without Bill's assistance.
Hilary Clinton has the track record of political and legislative accomplishment, the savvy and of all, the steely toughness needed to be an effective President.
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» RE: Democrats must articulate values
Posted by: nodozejoze
» RE: Democrats must articulate values
Posted by: CatDad
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Posted by: VannaLaRoche on Dec 17, 2007 5:42 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the choice is between Clinton and McCain, who cares if the election is fraudulent or not?
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» RE: Why Edwards is marginalized
Posted by: Wexler
» RE: Why Edwards is marginalized
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» NC in 2004 = USA in 2008?
Posted by: NWCrow
» RE: Why Edwards is marginalized
Posted by: CatDad
» But STILL....
Posted by: aka_bozo
» RE: But STILL....
Posted by: CatDad
» Yeah, excellent point about the 2004 elections.
Posted by: aka_bozo
» RE: Why Edwards is marginalized
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: Ben Sen on Dec 17, 2007 7:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: A Country That Elects a Bush
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: A Country That Elects a Bush (You're begging the question that he was.)
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Well, there's ALSO a "wide chasm" between Hillary and Bush ...
Posted by: aka_bozo
» Line, grid, 3-dimensional model -- it doesn't matter...
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Electability = charisma
Posted by: DanoM
» RE: If this was true: electability = charisma then:
Posted by: aka_bozo
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Posted by: left-leaning-libertarian on Dec 17, 2007 9:14 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One of the things I've been telling people is that Edwards is probably the best, most-electable choice we could make for the general, and, believe me, we need to win BIG in '08 if anything is going to change for the better! The pundits ignore or trash Edwards because he is the guy who actually wants to affect that change; unfortunately, too many people have unwittingly bought into their line of BS.
All I can say is; watch the caucus results on Jan 3; you will be VERY surprised (and so will all those idiot pundits!)
Happy holidays!
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» RE: THANK YOU! It's about time somebody said it!
Posted by: mwildfire
» RE: THANK YOU! It's about time somebody said it!
Posted by: left-leaning-libertarian
» RE: THANK YOU! It's about time somebody said it!
Posted by: Chloe2005
» Akron, Westfield and Hawarden, IOWA are my Grandfather's area and my heartland
Posted by: Prairie Waif
» RE: THANK YOU! It's about time somebody said it!
Posted by: blackie4aces
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Posted by: johngary on Dec 17, 2007 9:37 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Real incomes are shrinking, ability to send kids to college is collapsing(of course, who wants an educated electorate), health care has become unaffordable, wars suck away our financial resources, inflation makes life miserable (eggs @ $6.39 a doz, gas @ $3.50 a gal and going up, fuel oil--Oh well you know).
And only one candidate really speaks to our pain--Edwards. But those of the upper class, who control the media, ignore him. You know why!
The power of the middle class will not be denied, if not now--WHEN!
It is time to save America.
It is time to fight back!!
We of the middle class are the majority, and we can take back our country.
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Posted by: monkeywrench on Dec 17, 2007 9:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The fact is, we don't hear as much from Edwards as from Hillary and Obama in the mainstream media because Edwards – handsome, smart, progresssive and tenacious as hell – is the candidate who scares the crap out of the other side, and thus is being marginalized by their bought-and-paid-for media.
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» RE: Of course!
Posted by: nodozejoze
» RE: Of course!
Posted by: nochicagoboys
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Posted by: ScottP on Dec 17, 2007 9:44 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The same Edwards who conceded Ohio?
Posted by: nodozejoze
» RE: The same Edwards who conceded Ohio?
Posted by: CatDad
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Posted by: thealltheone on Dec 17, 2007 10:04 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: slim but best chance
Posted by: Chloe2005
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Posted by: Sojourner on Dec 17, 2007 10:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's called "charisma." But if I feel paying attention as a burden, I can appreciate the toll it must be taking on the candidates. Politics remains trial by fire. I can't wait until it's over.
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Posted by: ReallyBearish on Dec 17, 2007 11:42 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The above article is by Paul Krugman on why the sub-prime mess isn't going away. The economy determines who gets elected President. It ain't going to be a Republican now or in the near future. None of them are electable.
Regarding the South, the Republicans of the early 20th century did fine without their vote. Today's Democrats can ignore them as well as long as the former "Red States" wake up and realize what's happened to them. (Amazing how Depressions do that!)
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» Examine the future and the past.
Posted by: aka_bozo
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Posted by: drricklippin on Dec 17, 2007 11:53 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"And the Clintons, despite carrying some heavy baggage, have won four high-stakes elections in a row(my bolding). It's hard to deny that there's some appeal in that after the tepid campaigns of Kerry in '04 and Gore before him"
I believe Hillary may be more populist than she is letting on? But she needs to get elected
My test is that, after ending the war, Hillary fights like hell for election reform.
My tickets-
Clinton/Richardson 2008
Edwards/Obama-2016
Rick Lippin
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» RE: Clintons Know How to Win
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: Clintons Know How to Win
Posted by: thealltheone
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Posted by: makeadifference on Dec 17, 2007 4:09 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE:Only ask people that have been following candidates positions
Posted by: aka_bozo
» RE: Only ask people that have been following candidates positions
Posted by: niliadis
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Posted by: Prairie Waif on Dec 17, 2007 9:25 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They need only "dial-in" their policy after it has been formed in some hedge fund run by a family friend or Daddy's co-worker at the hedge fund.
John Edwards can call home but I think he will just get an honest opinion from a father that worked in a cotton mill and raised a son who learned to work and think for himself to become successful.
John Edwards worked his way to and through a University Education, Law School and developed a Law Practice that, yes, made him rich, but also set precedent for product safety, integrity of service providers (hospitals, denial of worker's compensation, denial of insurance [i.e. a la Katrina, etc.). Without lawyers that take on contingency cases, where would people who cannot even believe in the possibility of justice get a chance at legal redress and thus justice?
We have no idea what John Edward's earned on his contingency cases, was it volume or percentage? Then, take into consideration the cost of running a law office with journals costing upwards of $800/year for one subscription. Think of all the paralegals, typists and associates it would take to run a legal firm and then understand that all of this is based on a partial caseload of contingency cases.
No, it isn't vile or evil, it is how I sought justice from the city in which I live. I broke a foot on a unseen sidewalk obstacle, I spent almost 1 year with 3 surgeries and a bone graft with pins to put me back together so I could walk.
I live on a very sparse income. If I hadn't been able to have a lawyer willing to work on a contingency basis, I wouldn't have been able to exist, Worker's Compensation took 2 months to start and ended after 5 months.
It also really was about bringing the city to task, by ONE MORE INJURED CITIZEN, for their lackadaisical, if existent, maintenance plan.
Both were accomplished.
I spent a year on my couch due to the injury and another 4 months learning how to walk again. Do you not think that "the poor" should have access to lawyers? I wouldn't have cared if I got 15%, I wanted no one else to have to sit on a couch while watching the bills pile-up while waiting for the next round of X-rays and surgeries.
I'd like a President who figured out how to make it on his own, based upon what he learned from his Dad who worked at a Cotton Mill; I don't want another kid who came from wealth to tell me how "they made it and know how to work and make a difference with change. What change? From one fashion designer to another? From one board of directors to another?
To tell me you have 35 years of experience and realize that MORE than half of that, of which you are counting, is riding on the coat-tails of your ELECTED spouse, is some GRANDIOSITY of thought and delusion.
I'll listen most to the candidates that came up from the people who made the food for the church
or VFW supper, not those that gave the biggest donation and never showed up at the place except when being acknowledge for their "generosity;" they need to learn agape.
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» RE: I'll vote for the guy who CANNOT call "home" to ask "DAD" for connections to Wall Street, etc.
Posted by: niliadis
» Elizabeth Edwards chose to live her life normally, despite cancer; that means at John's side.
Posted by: Prairie Waif
» RE: lizabeth Edwards chose to live her life normally, despite cancer; that means at John's side.
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: niliadis on Dec 17, 2007 9:50 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Why the "entire name" usage? Too much Bill O'Reilly?
Posted by: Prairie Waif
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Posted by: jdbarron on Dec 18, 2007 3:39 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When it's "just sloppy" the errors and omissions cut both ways. When ALL of the errors and omissions cut the same way, it's an organized, directed effort, use whatever term you want to. But if the term you choose doesn't imply (or even excludes) INTENT, it is just plain inaccurate!
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Posted by: snideelf on Dec 18, 2007 10:50 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So if Clinton is the Democratic nominee, the stupid who hate Clinton would go and vote for whomever the Repug nominee would be simply to vote AGAINST Clinton.
The same will happen if Obama is nominated.
The people of America vote stupid, that is why the Chimp was elected TWICE.
Along with election fraud, Alfred E. Neuman was handed the presidency.
The stupid are still mighty proud of themselves for "electing" America's first little fart dictator.
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Posted by: riotoustanpdx on Dec 18, 2007 5:03 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we are to look at Issues that will predominate our country going into the election less than eleven months from today, we leave out the one candidate that has the best record and experience.
Bill Richardson is by far the candidate with the best record and the best Plan for 2009-2012 when it comes to the Great Issue of 2008.
The League of Conservation Voters endorses Bill Richardson for a number of reasons, among them is the probability that the Whole Environment, not limited to considerations pertinent to Global Warming, will be the One Great Issue of 2008.
Some believe the Wars, in Iraq, Iran and the other hot spots that will arise.
But, The War Issue is an Environmental issue tied to Peak Oil, energy independence, and corporate greed. Alternative energies, then, are key issues, and having a Plan to extricate ourselves from the dependence upon oil/fossil fuels will be critical independent of causality of global warming. The other Green issues are also critical to our future, some of which have little impact on global temperatures.
Water is an Environmental Issue that is in crisis, and its availability and equitable distribution has nothing to do with global temperatures in the immediate future; water is an "E" issue i itself, and is tied to the hegemony of the Corporate State versus the needs of the population. It is important enough in itself to call for a Constitutional Amendment for the fair distribution of water-for-people before water-owned-by-businesses.
The Immigration issues are also "E" issues. Whether we want to admit this or not, we have a dependent economy, and need foreign labor to eke out the economy that we have, sinking or not. Farms and much of the service industry are rife with questionable practices that pollute air, water and those who labor to keep those industries alive, while farming, janitorial services, and other industries dump an untold amount of chemicals into the local environments in which they operate. The depletion of nutrients in the soil, and soil ruination, are creeping up as the availability of land decreases, leading us rapidly into another Environmental Crises that will drop within the next four years.
Bill Richardson is the only candidate with a Plan to make changes in how we address these issues, while the others and the media that report on the various campaigns ignore the looming crises related to ALL Environmental Issues, echoing slogans about global warming while offering a dearth of solutions.
Perhaps there is real fear of a strong Richardson movement in the Corporate boardrooms, because the Other Bill is one candidate whose Plan, if put into effect, will change the way we do business in America, and bring about some those (empty) promises made by Obama and Edwards. That is to say, it is Richardson's experience and leadership that is needed to bring about the change that others talk about, yet have no Strategy to achieve. With Richardson, we will see much more of the local movement take root, the states will be empowered to set higher environmental and entrepreneurial standards, and the Solar Age will more rapidly come about, freeing us from the dominance of global corporations.
Thomas A Nagy, Global Cooling Initiative
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Posted by: coñoloco on Dec 19, 2007 1:42 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
travel to Iowa.
That tells a ton about prospects of this country.You bet Guilliani,Edwards,all of them
do have at their disposals charter jets.
Who pays for it,motivations ?
Any hope for the struggling?Do not think so.
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Posted by: Zigo Mandelbaum on Dec 20, 2007 10:09 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: bthespoon on Dec 22, 2007 3:23 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Staggo on Dec 22, 2007 6:47 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Racumin on Dec 24, 2007 11:48 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why can't people see past stupid candidates. How about changing the system. Start with a real third party. Who cares if the Democrats lose, vote Green. Democrats are just as sleazy as Republicans.
How about changing the electoral process? How about not being fat consumers?
This is all so stupid to me
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