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Election 2008

Why Prop 8 Passed in California: The Myth of the Black/Gay Divide

By Sherry Wolf, CounterPunch. Posted November 18, 2008.


Institutionalized homophobia in American society is definitely a white monopoly.
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In the wake of Barack Obama's historic victory, a false and reactionary narrative has emerged that blames Black voters for the gay marriage ban that passed by a 52 to 48 percent margin in California.

While Florida and Arizona also passed same-sex marriage bans, the vote for Prop 8 in the politically progressive state of California is widely attributed to the enormous surge of Black voters, 70 percent of whom approved the ban reversing the state's May 2008 Supreme Court decision allowing lesbians and gays to marry. The exit polls showed that 53 percent of Latinos voted for the ban, as well as around 49 percent of white voters.

The state's Black population is 6.2 percent, and it accounted for 10 percent of the overall vote. In other words, blaming African Americans for the referendum's passage ignores 90 percent of the vote.

It also ignores recent history. To judge from social research, had there been an unapologetically pro-civil rights campaign, there was the prospect of a different outcome.

The most comprehensive study of Black attitudes toward homosexuality, which combines 31 national surveys from 1973 to 2000, came to a fascinating conclusion. Georgia State University researchers found that "Blacks appear to be more likely than whites both to see homosexuality as wrong and to favor gay-rights laws."

African Americans' religiosity leads many to believe that homosexuality is a sin, while their own experience of oppression leads them to oppose discrimination. This was borne out in the 2004 elections, where, in the six states with substantial Black populations that had same-sex marriage bans on their ballots, Blacks were slightly less likely than whites to vote for them.

Nationally, 58 percent now oppose gay marriage bans, a dramatic shift from just a few years ago. If an explicit case in favor of gay marriage were made by activists, a multiracial majority could be won over in coming years.

The exit poll statistics from California don't explain the more important story of why so many of California's Black, Brown and white citizens -- who voted overwhelmingly for the first African American president by a 56 to 37 percent margin -- also supported striking down civil rights for lesbians and gays.

The most critical reason was the ineffective strategy used by pro-gay marriage forces that adhered closely to the Democratic Party -- and Barack Obama's -- equivocal position on the issue.

While formally opposing Prop 8, both Obama and his running mate Joe Biden were vocal throughout the campaign about their personal discomfort with and opposition to same-sex marriage.

Despite the unprecedented and astonishing sums of money raised to fight the referendum -- the pro-equality side took in $43.6 million, compared with $29.8 million for the anti-gay marriage forces -- the No on 8 side lost.

The statewide No on 8 Coalition didn't use the money for a grassroots organizing campaign. It didn't put out a call for activists to hit the phones, knock on doors and hold rallies and actions to publicly denounce the bigotry of the measure -- though in a few cases, activists took the initiative to do so on their own.

Adhering to the false notion that the Democrats lost the 2004 presidential election due to the assertiveness of gay marriage activists, the heads of the No on 8 campaign avoided even using words like "gay" or "bigoted." Instead, one TV ad opposing the measure featured a straight white couple, and only obliquely referenced gays at all when the camera panned over a bookshelf with a photo of two women and their children.

In the final days before the election, No on 8 ran an ad with a voiceover by Black actor Samuel L. Jackson denouncing past civil rights abuses like Japanese internment and anti-miscegenation laws, with a slideshow of gay and lesbian couples on the screen.

Some members of the California Teachers Association, to their credit, turned over the final week of pre-election phone banking to No on Prop 8 calls. Kathryn Lybarger, who married her partner a few weeks before the election, describes this and other efforts as "tragically last-minute stuff."

Blogger Rick Jacobs rightly challenged the campaign's tepid approach: "[C]an there be outrage when a movement becomes a corporation? When the largest LGBT organizations look like, are staffed by former executives of, and are funded by huge corporations and huge donors, where is the movement?"


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See more stories tagged with: gay marriage, california, african american, proposition 8

Sherry Wolfis the author of the forthcoming Sexuality and Socialism: History, Politics and Theory of Gay Liberation. This article originally appeared in the Socialist Worker.

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homophobia
Posted by: cef on Nov 18, 2008 1:16 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can't believe that you are defending bigots just because they are black.

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» RE: homophobia Posted by: bizeeb
» RE: homophobia Posted by: ayala
» RE: homophobia Posted by: racetraitor
» RE: homophobia Posted by: bizeeb
» RE: homophobia Posted by: racetraitor
» RE: homophobia Posted by: corgyn
» RE: homophobia Posted by: racetraitor
» RE: homophobia Posted by: jouifocracy
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Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
» RE: Who voted yes? Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Protect your children Posted by: Martin32
» RE: Protect your children Posted by: Karina
» RE: Protect your children Posted by: Karina
» RE: Protect your children Posted by: mjglow
» RE: Protect your children Posted by: Duncable
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» RE: Who voted yes? Posted by: mjglow
» RE: Who voted yes? Posted by: mjglow
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» RE: Who voted yes? Posted by: Crazy H
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» RE: Who voted yes? Posted by: marmaduke040
» RE: Who voted yes? Posted by: deeter131
Numerically ...
Posted by: tico on Nov 18, 2008 2:07 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think it is valid to point out that compared to Latinos and Whites, African American people disproportionally voted Yes for Prop8 (Ban of Gay Marriage). However, numerically they represent just 10% of the electorate, and they were outnumbered 3-1 by Republicans, who, surprise surprise were nearly all (83%) white.

Official figures from CNN:

* African-Americans 10% of electorate (70% Yes)
* Republicans 29% of electorate (82% Yes)
* White Republicans 24% of electorate (82% Yes)

Some simple maths with the numbers shows that even if the African American vote had been balanced similarly to the White vote (49% Yes vs 51% No) than it would (just) not have been enough to tip the balance.

Total votes: 12,119,369
Yes votes: 6,322,732
No votes: 5,796,637

Votes required to tip the balance: 263,048
African-American votes (10% of Tot.): 1,211,937

Percentage of Afr-American vote that should have voted 'No' instead of 'Yes' to tip the balance: 22%

Conclusion: It would have required 52% of the African-American vote (as compared to 51% of the White vote) to tip the balance.

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Prop. 8: An Unconstitutional State Imposition of an Anti-Gay Religious Dogma
Posted by: SkeeterVT1 on Nov 18, 2008 2:43 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For far too long, supporters of same-sex marriage have failed to attack the real reason for all those laws banning it: RELIGION.

The time is long overdue to transform the issue of same-gender marriage from an issue of equal rights to an issue of separation of church and state.

It finally took the passage of Proposition 8 in otherwise progressive, trendsetting California -- home to America's largest gay community -- to get the idea into the minds of pro-same-gender-marriage advocates that religion is the sole justification to prohibit gay ans lesbian couples from marrying.

I say that because since 2003, when the United States Supreme Court fully legalized gay and lesbian relationships in Lawrence v. Texas, which struck down the nation's last remaining anti-sodomy laws, there has been and there are NO LEGAL GROUNDS WHATSOEVER to prohibit gay and lesbian couples, whose relationships are fully legal, from the Constitutionally-guaranteed right to civil marriage.

Note that I said civil marriage, for contrary to the stubborn assertions of the Religious Right, civil marriage, which is accorded by the state, is SEPARATE from the religious sacrament of holy matrimony, which is accorded by religious institutions.

It is MATRIMONY, not MARRIAGE, that is "a sacred gift from God." MARRIAGE is a creature of the state, to which religion CANNOT be used to justify denying to gay and lesbian couples under the Constitutional separation of church and state dfirmly established not only by the First Amendment but also by Article VI, Section 2 of the Constitution, which strictly prohibits the imposition of a "religious test" as a qualification for a public office or "public trust."

Proposition 8 and all other similar laws that prohibit gay and lesbian couples from marrying are a thinly-disguised imposition in state law of a religious doctrine that condemns homosexuality as a sin. As such, they constitute an unconstitutional government endorsement of said religious doctrine and an illegal "religious test" on the public trust of civil marriage.

Proposition 8 and all other anti-same-gender-marriage laws also violate the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment by denying marriage on basis of gender -- in this case, the fact that the would-be spouses are of the same gender, as opposed to would-be spouses of different genders.

Gender-based discrimination is already outlawed under federal law and my nearly all 50 states.

Moreover, under a landmark 1996 U.S. Supreme Court ruling, Romer v. Evans, the justices struck down a voter-approved amendment to the Coloradio Constitution that struck down all state and local laws barring discrimination against gays and banned the Legislature and all municipalities in the state from passing any similar laws in the future.

By a 6-3 majority, the justices ruled that Amendment 2 not only violated the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, it also violated the First Amendment rights of gay and lesbian Coloradoans to petition their government for the redress of grievances.

Ironically, it was a bitter dissent by conservative Justice Antonin Scalia in the Romer case that led to the Lawrence decision. Scalia rightly argued that the Romer decision was in direct conflict with the court's now-infamous 1986 Hardwick v. Bowers ruling that upheld Georgia's anti-sodomy law. Lawrence was a firm repudiation of that 1986 decision.

It is also noteworthy that in Scalia's scathing dissent in Lawrence, the conservative justice warned that with the sweeping away of the last remaining anti-sodomy laws, there was no longer any legal justification to continue barring same-gender marriage -- effectively rendering such bans unconstitutional.

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» RE: LIGION IS THE ABSOLUTE CAUSE OF HATE Posted by: johnbradleycopeland
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» RE: Nice try. Posted by: bizeeb
» RE: Nice try. Posted by: bizeeb
» RE: Nice try. Posted by: maxpayne
» Two wolves and a chicken. Posted by: kepstein7777
» RE: Nice try. Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Nice try. Posted by: sabrina
» RE: Nice try. Posted by: jwverez
» RE: Nice try. Posted by: mjglow
» RE: Nice try. Posted by: jwverez
» RE: Nice try. Posted by: jwverez
» RE: Nice try. Posted by: jwverez
» RE: Nice try. Posted by: jwverez
» RE: Nice try. Posted by: jwverez
» RE: Nice try. Posted by: jwverez
» RE: Nice try. Posted by: sabrina
» RE: Nice try. Posted by: jwverez
» RE: Nice try. Posted by: jwverez
» RE: Nice try. Posted by: mjglow
» RE: Nice try. Posted by: jwverez
» RE: Nice try. Posted by: mjglow
» RE: Nice try. Posted by: jwverez
Being married is not a right
Posted by: nfamous on Nov 18, 2008 4:14 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Americans are hooked on this idea that when we are born we have certain rights? No we don't. When we are born we have what others before us have done. When it comes to marriage that has been reserved for straight people for centuries. You inherit that when you are born unless your culture is different. I don't care if gays get married but don't tell me it's a right. It's a human custom from our ancestors. That's all. There are no such things are rights. We made them all up like George Carlin said.

If gays want to get married I say let them but honestly I don't care because I never have any intention of getting married and possibly throwing my entire financial future down the toilet with a shallow American woman under the influence of the elite's social engineering so I'll never have to find out just how miserable marriage makes people that choose that ill-fated way of life.

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» RE: Being married is not a right Posted by: Fishbone Soldier
» Getting married IS a right. . . Posted by: SkeeterVT1
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» Are you drunk? Posted by: bizeeb
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» Huh? Posted by: Scientz
Numbers show Blacks caused the passage
Posted by: curiousdwk on Nov 18, 2008 5:56 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Blacks constituted 10% of the vote, and 70% of them voted for the Proposition, and the Whites voted 50%, then the difference between the Black and the White, 70% - 50% was 20% of the Black vote, or 2% of the total vote. If 2% of the total vote voted "No" instead of "Yes", then that would have swayed the result to be "No" instead of "Yes".

It may not be Politically Correct, but it is acurate to say that the Blacks caused the difference. That doesn't mean that they are to blame, it means the GLBT population needs to determine what is to be done to educate the Blacks on this issue of Human Rights.

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» prop 8 police state Posted by: theVRWCwhodatesLiberals
» RE: prop 8 police state Posted by: maxpayne
I may not support same sex marriages but to deny those who choose it is fascism.
Posted by: jwverez on Nov 18, 2008 6:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wonder how many of these same folks who rail against big government went out of their way to support Prop 8? And if you think that was bad enough, check out the discrimination policies in AR, AZ, and FL that were put on the ballot. Banning gay marriages is no different than banning guns. Maxpayne and sabrina brought up interesting points about tolerance and discrimination and I would add that at a time when the economy is in the toilet and we're about to enter the next Great Depression, the last thing we need are more hate policies directed against citizens of different backgrounds. Government that governs the least governs the best.

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» 1 + 1 = 3? Posted by: Scientz
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Tim V
Posted by: Tim V on Nov 18, 2008 6:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Probably the Afro-American population is polarized with respect to the issue of gay rights (and ditto for gays W/respect to afro-americans]: A lot of blacks are strongly pro-gay, a lot of other blacks are very biased against gays, and there are not many in between. In "The Nature Of Prejudice" Gordon Allport wrote [something like] "being a victim [of prejudice/discrimination] scarcely leaves one with a normal amount of prejudice [towards those in other "minority" groups.] Either one will join in the pecking order, or one will say 'these people are victims as we are - better stand with them than against them.'"

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» RE: Tim V Posted by: jwverez
» RE: Tim V Posted by: sabrina
Straight Spouse Network
Posted by: kateco2 on Nov 18, 2008 6:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Making heterosexual "marriage" the governmentally-approved norm causes a lot more problems than allowing homosexual "marriage". There is a large group of gay Americans who go out of their way to seek the American "dream" of marriage, and kids, and that white picket fence - and because that's only allowed to heterosexual people - they end up destroying the lives of a bunch of innocent bystanders.

check out this website: http://www.straightspouse.org/

Why IS "marriage" reserved for straight people?

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» EXCELLENT SITE. THANK YOU ! Posted by: jwverez
Can we have full faith and trust in the official vote-count?
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Nov 18, 2008 6:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Rove machine seems to have pulled it punches for the presidential election, but that doesn't mean we can trust the down-ballot races and propositions.

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The Bush & Cheney Ticket
Posted by: MHolt on Nov 18, 2008 8:04 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Bush Administration ran on a ticket of opposing "Affirmitive Action." Gay WHITE males came out in DROVES supporting the Bush/Cheney ticket and republican party! I remember that VIVIDLY!

Incredibly after it was proven only after the SECOND time Bush & Cheney were in office and the Christian Wrong aka Evilgelicals were pushing hard to attack any bill, legislation or law they presumed to be "pro" gay, did the Gay community start reacting negatively towards the Bush Administration and the Republicans.

How can any community expect another to support their "equal" rights when that community actively FOUGHT AGAINST the "equal" rights of another? I am personally for "equal"rights for every community. I could care less about someone's sexual identity!

This country has a severe problem with righting wrongs. The history of this country is ignored again and again.

As a black man in this country, and having grew up in the South well over half my life, I am extremely aware of what INEQUALITY is. That is one of the reasons why I left the South, which is obviously strongly anti-Affirmitive Action.

Minorities in this nation never sought "special" rights, only "equal" rights and we still have to fight tooth and nail just for that and even then other roadblocks are put into place to deny us access!

Barack Obama is a change in that small regard; sadly, it would be so much better if he were not bought and sold by AIPAC, along with the usual Puppet Masters but of course that is expected in the political system, which is another story entirely.

Without JUSTICE, you can not expect UNITY!

M. Holt

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» You are lying Posted by: Friend Of Jonathan
» RE: You are lying Posted by: MHolt
» RE: You are lying Posted by: MHolt
» You are Still lying Posted by: Friend Of Jonathan
» RE: The Bush & Cheney Ticket Posted by: JoanneRM
Ok, folks heads up!
Posted by: Nightstallion on Nov 18, 2008 8:21 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
J.B.S Haldane said it in the shortest terms. "I suspicion that the Universe is not only Queerer than we suppose it is Queerer than we can suppose."

I personally know five openly gay men who also raised families, OF THEIR OWN PROGENY! Two of these ninny's had large families one had eight kids the other eleven. Does that shoot any holes in your plans to say we don't contribute to the Gene Pool?

Women friends who are also of the lesbian persuasion DO become pregnant both in the old fashioned natural way and by insemination. There is no fault in this or blame placing by me. I cannot cast the first stone. And neither by fornication should any of you imperious, know it all, fundamentalists (I actually prefer DE mentalists here) who never had a thought to begin with.

All of the folks involved with Rote Religions instead of faith are Chorus Girls, they have to follow that line don’t you know? Get out of step and you’re out of the play! But watch it because they play mean ask Matthew Shepard. No apologies here except to his family for belonging to a race of animals, who think like chickens, if it is different peck it to death.

Arne, dear sweet Gov. Show a little back bone will ya? Stand up to these cretins, jerks, and neopaleolithic boobs! The religious right is NEITHER; let the Pope go back to his popery where he can affect no one but his elect. Since Religions can’t stand science or try to pervert it to the way they interpolate things, let them stay in their Seminaries and out of society. I simply do not believe J.C. would tolerate any of the chicanery the Churches have been up to at all.

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RELIGION IS THE ABSOLUTE CAUSE OF HATE
Posted by: Docent on Nov 18, 2008 8:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
RE: RELIGION IS THE ABSOLUTE CAUSE OF HATE
Posted by: Docent on Nov 18, 2008 8:22 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]

Posted by: Docent on Nov 18, 2008 8:04 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]

The real reason we have this hatred is because of the various hateful religions who insist that everyone subscribe to their religious belief systems. For as long as human history has been around, religion has caused more death and destruction than all other causes and wars put together. Those "So Holy" precepts that profess their belief in "loving their neighbor" - have hypocricy as their watchword. They use the Bible (which is a history book written by man) to justify their hate. The catchword is that "we'll love you IF you believe as we do". Religions are nothing more than organizations of men who have put together 'governments' to rule and create differences between humanity.

Oh, by the way, I'm not agnostic or atheistic -I just don't believe in organized religions and the obscene way they're practiced in the world. There is such a thing as spirituality, but it's not practiced by those who holler about their religious dogma the loudest!

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» RE: LIGION IS THE ABSOLUTE CAUSE OF HATE Posted by: TheNamelessCity
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Who really passed Prop 8
Posted by: FundamentallyFlawed on Nov 18, 2008 8:55 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Uneducated, uninformed bigots---of all colors and creeds. (I've been immersed in the anti-equality idiocy for some time now, and have been collecting some of the "best" of their brilliant arguments on my blog: Fundamentally Flawed)

Laugh and weep.

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Populism and democracy get you nowhere, compared to equality under the law as mandated...
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Nov 18, 2008 9:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...by OUR Constitutional Republic.

I give two tin ***ts if my married neighbors are dudes or chicks. It's not an exciting cause; it's an obvious right of two consenting adults to get hitched in whatever way they deem fit.

Enter Big Government:

Now the social institution of marriage carries government sanctions, taxation differences, and procedural exceptions.

Duh and Note To Religious People: Your Faith is now centered on what belongs to Ceasar.

Democracies are inherently flawed. We require a Constitution to balance the desire of the many to plunder the productivity, resources, and rights of the few.

CA got exactly what it desired: a democratic means to deprive the few of the government privileges enjoyed by the many, as has been the case with many and few ballot amendments.

Welcome to "freedom and democracy", and the realization that Bush--and YOU, if you buy that--are absolutely at odds with YOURSELF.

--thanks to those who support our Republic and our Constitution, from a happily married practicing southern baptist, who believes in freedom and our republic instead of the stupid institution of democracy and so-called "populism".

The problem, once again, is government intervention in a society that values equal treatment by our government.

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Bigoted Spin
Posted by: Fishbone Soldier on Nov 18, 2008 9:25 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the African American votes had been split 50/50, then the bill could just has easily have passed. (net #s of the total voting population would have been 50/50 as well).

However, if the Christian population had gone 50/50, we'd have seen "No" win in a landslide (I can't do the actual math because nobody seems to be reporting the %s for Christians anywhere). So why are the blacks being attacked and not the Christians? It's OK for Christians to be homophobes, but not African Americans? Is this all to cover up the fact that Jesus experimented?

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» RE: Bigoted Spin Posted by: TheNamelessCity
Homosexuality is a white problem...yeah, right.
Posted by: farabutto on Nov 18, 2008 9:53 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can't begin to tell you the number of times I've heard leaders in the black community in my city say that "Homosexuality is a white problem" so they don't need to deal with educating men who are on the DL about HIV transmission or they don't have to be concerned about civil rights for glbt folks.
Black churches in this city have flat out said that there is no such thing as a black lesbian, just a woman who is confused or playacting. So don't say institutionalized homophobia is the province of white folk, 'cause it isn't.

The simple fact is: bigots voted to approve prop 8. Doesn't matter what color their skin was or their religion.

I just have to wonder: why are full civil rights for gays and lesbians up for popular vote? And when do we get to vote on full civil rights for every other minority group in the country? I bet that would bring the bigots out of the woodwork.

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Come, come!
Posted by: CovertRage on Nov 18, 2008 10:15 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The reality is that the LGBT Community dropped the ball here. Prop 8 was about way more than merely allowing same sex couples to marry. It's prevention was about expanding the definition of family beyond the limits of being a man, his female wife, and their biological or legally adopted children. But, the LGBT Community failed to adequately make that case with the voters. The LGBT Community was as bad as the propagandist MSM in focusing the brunt of the attention granted this campaign on the fact that abolishing Prop 8 upheld the California same sex marriage laws that just passed. LGBTs didn't get out there early and often enough to demonstrate exactly how preventing Prop 8's passage benefitted both gays and straights in these economically troubled times. No, the LGBTs made this campaign an extention of their Gay marriage flaunt, which lost them valuable ground in the battle for civil equality. The bad thing is they never bothered to rethink these bad strategies, presumptuously assuming they had enough of the right support to get their message across. After all, they had Ellen and Melissa Etheridge on LOGO, right? Well, for that lax and largely feckless campaign, they were tactically outmaneuvered by a committed, over-funded, resourceful, organized force of narrowminded, menopausal white homophobic fascist Jesus campers who did a much better job of pissing in the LGBT pool and showing voters where not to swim. Case closed.

Now, instead of being just as racist as the Klan in defeat, the LGBT Community should be out making those well-deliberated, strategically sound concerted efforts to reach out to everyone with the social gospel of how expanding the accepted definitions of marraige and family benefits not only the LGBT community, but every community. After all, homosexuals are not a planet unto themselves. They too live right here on planet earth in the USA. Consequently, regardless of sexuality, ethnicity, and religious conviction, we citizens of this nation share in common the very same community concerns. In the final analysis, there remains ample common ground available to be politically exploited by the LGBT Community. This is no time to be pissy with everyone who doesn't want to join you in trotting down Haight Avenue wearing a magenta feather boa for Gay Pride. Do try to appreciate why you aren't getting much straight support from the offended you've failed to effectively reach, who see recent retalliatory social castigation as an undeserved affront. What is worst is you're alienating once established supporters who avidly and adamantly fight with you for equal civil and human rights for every human being in America.

Let's be reasonable. The assumption that an Obama Presidency automatically translated into the end of Prop 8 was always as ridicualous as belief in Santa of the Easter Bunny. This shameless demand for obligatory feigned 11th-hour solidarity for appearances's sake made LGBTs seem culturally naive, politically disorganized, and selfishly opportunistic. But, not even that reflected as badly on LGBTs as their petulent insistance that "rival" ethnic communities, who are as just as small, if not smaller, with no more political clout than that owned by the LGBT community, are primarily responsible for Prop 8's passage. Furthermore, for the LGBT Community to frame these scornfully malicious charges in the irrational context of long unvendicated bloodguiltiness of fellow social victims, wrongly accused of stealthly manipulating justice to deprive LGBTs of rights and freedom, goes beyond indefensible temerity to being downright ridiculous. Be mature enough to take some responsibility. Instead of putting so much effort into politicizing the LGBT experience by mercilessly forcing comparisons of gay life to ethnic life, try copying and playing Obama's inclusive, voter-educating ground game that very effectively marshalled a majority of hope-empowered voters to support real change!

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RE: LBGT Community - You lost - now move on..
Posted by: TheNamelessCity on Nov 18, 2008 11:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How would you feel if a majority elected to remove your rights? Would you sit back and take it?

There is a difference between bullying and democracy. Americans are too uneducated to know basic civics, so they don't knw this difference. Probably because they are too busy watching tv, sports and of course going to their silly churches hat obsess controlling sex instead of feeding the hungry.

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Then why do you keep foaming at the mouth? You sir are R-E-S-T-L-E-S-S.
Posted by: jwverez on Nov 18, 2008 11:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Talk about a bald faced liar such as yourself. First you go out there attacking others who have no problem tolerating same sex couples as an "irate mob of supporters" telling them to move on when in fact, it is you who should move on and get a life. Then you have the nerve to keep bashing again and again. The fact that you cannot accept the fact that same sex couples pose no threat whatsoever makes you no different from the Bush/Limbaughian Repukes. And finally, you sir have no morals being the bigot that you proudly admit yourself to being even though you try to deny it. In fact, the more you try to deny it, the more of a bigot you prove yourself to be. Cool off and come back when you grow up. Maybe your son will be lucky to teach you some manners provided he doesn't grow up to be a religion abuser like you.


"I love democracy."

Based on your hate-filled posts, only when it suits you. I doubt you would be saying the same if prop 8 had gone the other way.

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RE: LBGT Community - You lost - now move on..
Posted by: Crazy H on Nov 18, 2008 11:29 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the spirit of someone else telling me to move on because I am a bigot... which I am not.

Defintions of bigot from the web:

a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

One strongly loyal to one's own social group, and irrationally intolerant or disdainful of others
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bigot

Narrow minded or prejudice in your beliefs.
www.godonthe.net/dictionary/b.html

Intolerant person: somebody who has very strong opinions, especially on matters of politics, religion, or ethnicity, and refuses to accept ...
www.creationism.co.uk/index.php/Main/Definitions

A person obstinately and unreasonably wedded to a particular religious creed, opinion, or practice; a person blindly attached to an opinion ...
www.iyfradio.com/reference.htm

Yep, you're a bigot, all right.

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It's not about having different morals
Posted by: Fishbone Soldier on Nov 19, 2008 5:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...it's about imposing your set of morals on other people.

Obviously, there are limits to this. If someone believes murder to be a moral act, enough of us disagree to the point where we can declare it universally immoral. But I think we can all agree that we're in more of a gray area here, right? Your argument is very similar to the one banning interracial marriage. If your morals dictate that you are against gay marriage, then your solution is simple. Don't have one.

Yeah, Democracy's great. It gave us eight years of George Bush. How's that working out?

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WAYNE BESEN QUOTE
Posted by: TheNamelessCity on Nov 18, 2008 11:52 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"the rules of the Mormon, Catholic and Evangelical churches are now enshrined into civil law. We are all unofficial members of these religious institutions and captive to their narrow, sectarian rules. They have effectively hijacked the state and now govern our personal relationships and private lives — whether we like it or not. I think people are finally awakened to this existential threat and willing to fight back."

It is gonna be a nasty fight, too, since the uneducated and ignorant refuse to budge.

Religion is bullshit and it is about time progressives rise up and refuse to be bound by its homophobia and misogyny.

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» Meh. All due respect... Posted by: ABetterFuture
IS SAKUL72
Posted by: sirios on Nov 18, 2008 2:33 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The latest invader of alternet that we should be protecting our children from?

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» RE: IS SAKUL72 Posted by: Karina
» RE: IS SAKUL72 Posted by: sakul72
It's the churches violating church and state, Stupid!
Posted by: lynmarenjensen on Nov 18, 2008 2:35 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I attended a Democratic party meeting with people of multiple races, etc. last week. Someone made the mistake of mentioning Prop. 8 and how certain churches organized so aggressively against it, his point being that the churches may have violated the separation of church and state. His point was promptly forgotten as three black women (no whites or anybody of any other race) each got up and preached sermons about Jesus, God, the Bible, Sodom and Gomorrah, how they were all very insulted that anyone would say that same-sex marriage is a civil right when the Bible says, blah-blah-blah and it's a moral issue, not a civil rights issue. A (white) man, meanwhile, dragged the discussion deeper into the gutter with hysteria about how you'd have your right to marry your own daughter next. I tried to make the point that such arguments used to be tossed around about interracial marriage, but nobody seemed to want to listen. Having witnessed such a scene, I have a hard time believing that blacks and the black churches had nothing to do with Prop. 8 passing. I think the blacks and the gays need to reach out to each other if we are ever going to get to the real point--the one about churches violating the separation of church and state. Because if the churches win on this one, such issues as interracial marriage and birth control will be next.

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It's not a "homophobe" issue...
Posted by: BillWhedon on Nov 18, 2008 3:07 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This nation was founded on religious , not populist, principles. I don't consider homosexuality to be particularly frightening, unless someone is attempting to propagandize my children into accepting it as some peculiar form of "normalcy".

However, if you accept the religious principles argument, then I believe that you will find that homosexuality is, in almost every human religion, referred to as an "abomination", and none of them in their traditional forms, recognize same-sex "marriage".

Gays are something less than a small percentage of the world population, and in the USA that is a mean around 5%, one in twenty. They have a disproportionately loud voice only because their speech is protected by the US Constitution.

So, hey, Five Percenters, if you think it's better somewhere else, might I suggest that you hold your next "Gay Pride" parade in Kabul or Faluja, and see how many of you live through it? Be sure to print your signs in Arabic...
Bill Whedon

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As to this country being founded on RELIGIOUS principles.
Posted by: Nightstallion on Nov 18, 2008 4:25 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your raunchy Nightstallion offers his oppinion in the form of road apples. That is to say,"Horse shit"! It was founder by bankers, Masons, Farmers, Plantatation owners, shipping companies, Large Landowners running share crop, and manufacturers. They all loved to play politics. Just like todays crop of ninnys.

In fact I even wrote a poem about it in 1978.



ROAD APPLE COLLECTION

0' we have gone a roving

O'er hill an' hidden dale

Where the horses' leave their road apples,

by every rocky vale.

Where politicians promulgate and citizenry

quail,

and shirk responsibility

from way beyond the pale.

And while machinations masticate

the parley tickle trail,

but if we'll have confection

on our way to wan perfection then our road apple collection we'll unveil!


© 2006 Nightstallion - Poets.com

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Homosexuals are Americans, too. Correct?
Posted by: GuitarBill on Nov 18, 2008 7:37 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Homosexuals are Americans, too. Correct?

I think we can all agree with that statement. If we can agree on that statement, then it follows, naturally, that homosexuals are endowed with "the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

Thus, marriage is an issue directly linked to "the pursuit of happiness", which leads me to conclude that it is unlawful to deny homosexuals the privilege to marry whomever they wish.

By the same token it seems clear to me that Proposition 8 violates the Equal Protections Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution, which is, in fact, a grave infringement on American Homosexuals access to "the equal protection of the laws."

The Equal Protection Clause can be seen as an attempt to secure the promise of the United States' professed commitment to the proposition that "all men are created equal".

Thus, homosexual advocates have every right to challenge this terrible law in court; in fact, they should have no trouble whatsoever overturning Proposition 8.

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» Equal Protection Posted by: gellero1
Capital B for Black & Brown?
Posted by: blschneider on Nov 18, 2008 11:16 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One interesting aspect of this story is the upper-casing of "B" in "Blsck" & "Brown" and the lower-casing of "w" in "white." Now, I've always been progressive, but this seems a tortured attempt to "fly your colors." Why not capitalize White as well -- or lower-case them all? That is, if all are truly equal!

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» RE: Capital B for Black & Brown? Posted by: blschneider
This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
» RE: The bigot's whine Posted by: Karina
» RE: The bigot's whine Posted by: CovertRage
Fallacy upon Fallacy, lie after lie
Posted by: Friend Of Jonathan on Nov 19, 2008 5:12 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Barbara Smith in her rush to exculpate the 70% of Californian people of color who deliberately and with malice helped forced prejudice onto the lives of millions, is wrong, dishonest, to the point of demonstrating racism.

"Institutionalized homophobia in American society is definitely a white monopoly."

The data shows the something very different. 70% of black voters, 49% of white voters, supported Prop 8. Whites have no monopoly, in fact, they are on average less likely to be homophobes that blacks. A monopoly is exclusive control, priviledge, possession of something. A greater percentage of blacks voted for Prop 8, than the percentage of whites. For whites to have a monopoly on "institutionalized homophobia" - homophobia could not occur in black institutions like churchs.

The narrative is not one of blame, except when liars misrepresent the essential argument to suit their race based agenda. The real narrative is an attempt to recognize the homophobia in people of color, the significant moral failing it reveals, and the hypocrisy of a community that demands that GLBTQ people support them in their fight for equality, yet lies about our lives and votes against our civil rights, not just this year, but time and time and time again.

This smoke-and-mirrors game occurs each time there is a vote on the civil rights of GLBTQ people and exit polls reveal that blacks tend to vote for prejudice against gays and lesbians.

The excuse-making simply squanders an expensive object lesson.

Many people of color continue to refuse to recognize or excuse the prejudices in their own communities, not only against GLBTQ people but against other racial minorities and against whites as well; so it is no wonder that their progress toward equality had largely ground to a halt until Barrack came along.

Apologists have ignored, or flat-out lied about how much is demanded of GLBTQ people by people of color on a regular and consistent basis. We're expected to protest every whiff of racism, to boycott racist businesses, ordered to support candidates who are people of color even when they are less than appreciative of our needs. And compared to society as a whole, we do better, consistently, in opposing racism than any other demographic group. Our reward for our diligence in the pursuit of equality for all - the majority of people we have stood up for over the years, once again voted against equality for us.

GLBTQ people were verbally lashed for much of the last campaign, told that we must support Barrack to prove our support for racial civil rights (even when he cozied up to black "ex-gay" charlatans). Our reward: 70% of african-american Californians decided that equality was for them, but not for us, and therefore, helped pass Prop 8. They may or may not have changed the outcome, but that doesn't excuse their crime against GLBTQ people.

Apologists run the risk of freezing any further advance for people of color. The question has been asked over and over again, in many different ways, and yet, there is still no answer:

Why should any GLBTQ person care about racial equality, when the majority of voters of color (70% in CA) actively oppose equality for us?

Why should GLBTQ people care what Don Imus says about black athletes, when black ministers and musicians are calling us abominations and inciting physical violence against us?

Why should we care about breaking the color barrier at the White House, when people of color help rebuild the orientation wall around marriage?

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Homophibia??
Posted by: gellero1 on Nov 19, 2008 8:21 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]

What does Prop 8 have to do with homophobia?

Marriage is a civil contract with many legal ramifications. I'm still confused why any sane human would want to subject themselves to alimony and other Family Court abuses.

Want equal rights? Give your consort power of attorney over you and your property if you are near death or in a coma. That's legal, isn't it?

Have a ( selfish ) need to adopt children? Please make sure you live in an enlightened community so the kid is not burdened by neurosis caused by the jibes of unenlightened schoolmates. They are probably ( and will never be ) so socially advanced.

And face this one fact of humankind........all parents want happiness for their children, no matter what their orientation. But there probably aren't any that desire their kids to choose a gay lifestyle. That's human nature. The average citizen doesn't want it to be seen as a totally acceptable lifestyle, even though they don't disapprove it for 'others'.

Opt for 'Civil Union'....same thing, sounds more acceptable.

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Everyone of my posts has been deleted..
Posted by: sakul72 on Nov 20, 2008 12:25 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What a joke of a site alternet is... every single one of my posts was deleted... not even an obligatory 'this post has been deleted' ... just gone..

Who are the bigots?

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» cry moar Posted by: meetmeineleusis
sickumstrate
Posted by: sickumstrate on Nov 24, 2008 1:10 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hello Alternet community!

As a long time reader of Alternet:ten years and counting, I want to say I have always enjoyed reading and digesting intresting posts and articals on this web site.It is the best.

Thank you progressives for providing such intresting and provocutive, (Thoue some times a little strange Ha ha.)insites.

Peace to all, have a merry X-miss.

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???WHAT IS THE PROBLEM???
Posted by: ds1st on Nov 26, 2008 9:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The vote is in and GAY MARRIAGE LOST.

There is no problem.

Stop the WINNING. Please!

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» RE: ???WHAT IS THE PROBLEM??? Posted by: SkeeterVT1
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