ELECTION 2008  
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Obama vs. McCain: Who Won? Short Takes on the Debate

Liliana Segura, Don Hazen, Joshua Holland, David Sirota, Jill Tubman, Arianna Huffington, Andrew Sullivan and others share their thoughts.
October 8, 2008  |  
 
 
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Liliana Segura:

The first problem with this debate was calling it a debate. The second was calling it a "town hall." In the strange, stilted ritual atop the red carpet at Nashville's Belmont University, the studio audience looked less like an inquisitive cross-section of the American public than it did a cast of apolitical drones programmed to deliver canned questions in exchange for canned lines. This was mostly thanks to the rules. The two candidates were literally, according to guidelines agreed upon by the two campaigns, prohibited from addressing each other directly. The result was an hour and a half of parallel speechifying in which disagreements were expressed in terse, passive-aggressive sideswipes by two men who, as McCain might say, clearly "don't like each other very much." In such a format, meaningful discussion -- or even entertaining television -- is fairly impossible.

There was nothing particularly surprising about the content -- or the questions, for that matter, which did nothing but open the door for the candidates to fall back on stump speech material and well-worn pledges; i.e., who is more loyal to Israel, who will capture or kill bin Laden, etc.

There were a few eyebrow-raising moments. One was when McCain proposed, "Let's put health records online" -- a cunning way to offset his own lack of Internet savvy, perhaps, but a comment that no small number of critics will respond to by saying, "Let's start with yours."

More significantly, at a time when Sarah Palin is denouncing Obama's penchant for "palling around" with unrepentant terrorists and McCain TV ads are asking, ominously, "Who IS Barack Obama?" McCain indulged in some pretty blatant fearmongering to discuss, of all things, Obama's economic plan. McCain's line about how "nailing down Senator Obama's various tax proposals is like nailing Jell-O to the wall" may have been too colorful to strike fear in Americans' hearts, but when he referred to "Senator Obama's secret that you don't know" to say he will raise taxes, it was pretty clear he's talking about more than money.

It was also surprising to see McCain appeal to the ignorance of the American people, first, condescendingly telling an African-American man who asked a question about the bailout, "I'll bet you, you may never even have heard of (Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac) before this crisis," and later, in his closing statement, predicting, confusingly, that "we will be talking about countries sometime in the future that we hardly know where they are on the map."

Obama's hawkishness was, as it was in the first debate, alarming. But it was not surprising. Discussing Pakistan, Obama said, "the War on Terorrism began in that region, and that's where it will end" -- a reminder that he plans to perpetuate a foreign policy based on pre-emptive war. "Part of the job of the next commander-in-chief, in keeping all of you safe," he said, "is making sure that we can see some of the 21st Century challenges and anticipate them before they happen."

But there was a redeeming moment on the topic of health care. Asked whether they considered it "a privilege, a right or a responsibility," McCain answered "responsibility," and then peevishly called on Obama to reveal how much he would "fine" people who "don't get the health care policy that (he thinks) you should have." Obama, who has often invoked the notion of "personal responsibility" on the campaign trail to underscore his conservatism, replied deliberately. "In a country as wealthy as ours," he said, people should not have to go bankrupt because they can't pay their medical bills. "I think it should be a right for every American."

Don Hazen: McCain and Obama -- Deja Vu All Over Again

It was deja vu all over again at the Tennessee presidential debate, or perhaps instant reruns after only the first show. The evening was replete with Tom Brokaw as the annoying moderator, inarticulate questions from the audience and the Internet, and the two guys doing the same, same dance, but this time walking around with microphones rather than standing behind a lectern. The candidates repeated verbatim many of the same things they said a week ago. Last night was supposed to have a more lively town meeting format, but instead the affair was rather sedate, leaning toward boring. How many people are going to come back to watch Debate III, with the reruns already playing.

Conventional wisdom is, of course, that McCain is increasingly behind in the race, especially because fear grips the land as economic crisis goes global, and millions are looking at 25 percent or more erased in their retirement funds, jobs disappearing fast, housing values plunging and no light at the end of the tunnel. So McCain had to do something different and dramatic to rejigger the race. But he didn't, or couldn't. He flailed, he swung wildly, but the best he could do was repeat his old lines from the first debate as if he didn't know how to say anything differently -- about how Obama is going to increase taxes, when people now seem to get that the Obama plan will reduce taxes for 95 percent of the population; about how McCain will bring us victory with honor in Iraq, when Iraq has fallen off the radar screen for most voters.

McCain seemed even more the old guy to Obama's "change" message than he did in the first debate. He referred to needing hair transplants, all his years of experience in the Senate, and fond memories of Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill finding bipartisan nirvana decades ago. Doesn't he get it that the more he talks about the past, the less he is seen as the man for the future? He tried to pin "earmarks," a multimillion-dollar projector, the demise of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, lack of support for offshore drilling, nuclear reactors, clean coal -- all of this on Obama; but none of it stuck, because Obama had a more believable retort for each accusation. Unfortunately, Obama does support these things: the impossible notion of clean coal, the 10-year, $10 billion disastrous process to build nuclear power, and sadly, offshore drilling, although as Obama subtly points out, drilling is an absurd position on its face, because the United States has 3 percent of the world's oil reserve and consumes 25 percent of the oil supply every year.

One of the only fresh moments of the debate was at the onset, when Obama attacked the executives of the bailed-out AIG for having a bountiful and pricey spa weekend after the company went down the tubes. A momentarily aggressive Obama insisted that the money be paid back and the executives fired. But for the rest of the evening, Obama did exactly what he had to do -- be smooth, calm and presidential, counterpunch effectively and leave very little room between him and McCain on most issues. Obama sounded frequently like a military warrior as he laid out the bellicose terms of relationships with Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Georgia, but still always differentiating himself just enough from McCain -- it is Obama who would talk to our "so-called" enemies and be a global diplomat, while McCain persisted in remaining old school and out of touch.

In a couple of key moments, Obama insisted health care was a right, while McCain thought it a responsibility -- points to Obama. McCain tried hard to tar Obama with health "mandates," while Obama parried him easily, as if the voters cared about labels -- they want better and less expensive health care. Obama will bring it to them, while McCain, with tax credits and new taxes on benefits, will "give with one hand and take back with the other." Thinking about the 90 minutes, and of course my biases, it was really difficult to find a single topic where McCain scored any significant points. So while the contest was no knockout, in the scoring culture of the boxing world, this was a clear-cut, unanimous decision, with only the out-of-touch Pat Buchanan still trying to pretend that McCain was the victor.

According to the quickie polls, McCain actually lost ground in the debate, getting hammered by 20 points as to who won and who would best solve the economic crisis, while on CNN, Obama actually picked up a small number of changed minds. McCain gained none. If my personal experience of him was a fair assessment, McCain came across as a somewhat nasty phony. I counted him referring to the audience as his friends at least 15 times, which seemed as contrived as it was repetitive.

Obama was not above repeating many of his previous lines either, including reminding the audience about McCain's performance of "Bomb Bomb, Iran" to the tune of "Barbara Ann." Yet, it seems bizarre that McCain tried to paint Obama has a zealot in his talk of pursuit of Osama bin Laden, as if that would lose him voters. ( In a point of personal privilege, numerous commentators talked about "Barbara Ann" as the Beach Boys song, but it was written by Fred Fassert and sung first by The Regents in 1961, and it only hit No. 13 on the charts, surprising given its longevity. This song credit situation reminds me of how Joni Mitchell, the creator and first performer of "Chelsea Morning," was constantly screwed because the Clintons, who named their daughter after the song, could only remember the Judy Collins version.)

Arianna Huffington from the Huffington Post:

In Debate II, John McCain twice laid out the criteria for how the American people should judge the candidates: In tough times, we need someone with a steady hand on the tiller.

By that measure, Obama was the clear winner. He was centered where McCain was scattered. Forceful where McCain was forced. Presidential where McCain was petulant.

In the first debate, McCain wouldn't look at Obama. In this one, he referred to him as "that one." The contempt was palpable and unpalatable.

In the run-up to the debate, McCain lowered himself into the sewer in a desperate attempt to portray Obama as dangerous, untrustworthy, a risk too big to take.

But Obama's measured reasonableness totally countered that caricature. You could fault Obama for not being particularly inspiring, but you could not miss the rock-steady competence he exuded -- authoritatively delivering substantive answers to questions on the economy, health care, taxes and foreign policy.

He scored with his history lesson, reminding voters of the economy the Republicans inherited and how they squandered that inheritance.

He scored with his reminder of how much the war in Iraq is costing America and the enormous strain that puts on our economy -- as well as our national security.

He scored when he declared that affordable health care is a "right" of every American and not, as McCain put it, a "responsibility" of … he actually didn't specify who.

And Obama scored big when he gave voice to the vast gulf between the two candidates' -- and the two parties' -- positions on the role of government in our lives, invoking JFK's commitment to put a man on the moon in 10 years as an example of what can be done in fueling a new alternative energy-based economy, and pointing out how government investment played a key role in developing the tech advances that have driven our economy for the last two decades.

McCain, like Palin last week, couldn't decide if government is the enemy or the deep-pocketed benefactor that is going to buy up all the bad mortgages in America.

Is "a government-bought house on every lot" the 21st century equivalent of "a chicken in every pot"?

McCain also provided the debate's strangest moments, twice chiding Obama for backing an "overhead projector" in a planetarium, and raising the idea of "gold-plated Cadillac" insurance policies that pay for hair transplants. Huh?

McCain also told us he knows how to fix the economy, knows how to win wars and knows how to capture bin Laden. Is there a reason he's keeping all these a secret?

The debate ended on a question Tom Brokaw described as having "a certain Zen-like quality:" "What don't you know and how will you learn it?"

Both men used the opportunity to pivot from the Moment of Zen into impassioned but familiar stump speech stories about single moms (Obama) and absent fathers (McCain), about the American Dream (Obama) and the country put first (McCain), about the need for fundamental change (Obama) and the desire for another opportunity to serve (McCain).

At the end of the debate, Brokaw asked McCain to get out of the way of his Teleprompter, so he could sign off.

Brokaw might as well have been speaking on behalf of the future: Senator McCain, can you please get out of the way so we can get on with it?

Andrew Sullivan from AndrewSullivan.com:

This was, I think, a mauling: a devastating and possibly electorally fatal debate for McCain. Even on Russia, he sounded a little out of it. I've watched a lot of debates and participated in many. I love debate and was trained as a boy in the British system to be a debater. I debated dozens of times at Oxford. All I can say is that, simply on terms of substance, clarity, empathy, style and authority, this has not just been an Obama victory. It has been a wipeout. It has been about as big a wipeout as I can remember in a presidential debate. It reminds me of the 1992 Clinton-Perot-Bush debate. I don't really see how the McCain campaign survives this.

Jill Tubman from Jack and Jill Politics: Debate '08 -- Obama Wins Again

Obama wins hands down according to NBC, FOX, CNN, CBS and so on. Though my mama wasn't impressed -- they just say the same things over and over, she says. As for me, I found it strange that no questions about immigration or women's rights (such as equal pay, abortion, child care, the morning-after pill, etc.) have been mentioned in the past few debates. Is this due to some kind of agreement between the campaigns? Has immigration really slipped in our national priorities? Hispanic voters are critical so it seems curious.

McCain was wheezing and struggling to maintain coherency during the debate. Must not have gotten his nap and applesauce in the afternoon. He also managed to be disdainful and disrespectful to Obama, calling him "that one," which raises my hackles and sounded a little too near "boy" for my taste. I'm also told that McCain was reluctant to shake Obama's hand after the debate, but CNN weirdly blocked the view at that moment, choosing to focus on Brokaw, so I didn't see that. Here's the "That One" clip:



Obama managed to get in a few zingers this time and came out strong and swinging. He's usually all Mahalo, Aloha, One Love, so it was clear that McCain wasn't expecting a strong offense and defense from Obama. I liked his answers on Darfur and Pakistan (he pronounced it correctly, which obviously means he's a terrorist!), and I agree with Obama that health care is a right. Health care has become a human rights issue in America -- John McCain doesn't get that. I really loved Obama's closing remarks -- John McCain had no real comeback on personal experience with food stamps. Here's that clip with Barack keepin' it real:



Joshua Holland:

A snap poll gave Obama the edge tonight, 39-27. But I'd say it was a tie. Both candidates again managed to avoid any real specificity, and both worked hard to maintain some of the key illusions that are central to American political culture.

There was no debate around the idea that American foreign policy has been a source of unbridled good in the world; both candidates agreed that we're surrounded by violent evil-doers, including Venezuela and, interestingly, Nigeria. There was concurrence that Iran, which still hasn't invaded another country for over a century, is a vital threat to Israel, an advanced nuclear power that we have to defend at all costs.

It was noteworthy that both candidates agreed that Russian "aggression" in Georgia was completely incongruous with international norms. The hypocrisy, given our actions from Vietnam to Grenada to Iraq, was stunning.

These debates are becoming increasingly banal. In a sense, they're a microcosm of our larger political discourse, with complex issues of great import reduced to meaningless rhetoric and a media -- personified by moderator Tom Brokaw, who appeared more concerned with enforcing the rules of the debate than probing the issues in any substantive way -- that refuse to call out the candidates when their talking points diverge from reality.

Consider a few of the ridiculous statements for which most viewers no doubt lacked context, but which a political journalist with a critical eye might have pointed out.

McCain called for an across-the-board federal spending freeze, except for military spending and veterans' affairs (natch). But less than 40 percent of the federal budget is discretionary spending -- spending that could reasonably be "frozen" -- and the bulk of that, much more than half, is for "defense" and veterans' affairs. It's gibberish, but how many viewers knew it?

Or the idea that drilling offshore could conceivably wean the country off foreign oil -- or even begin to do so. The United States, which ranks 11th in the world in proven reserves -- offshore and ANWAR included -- uses a quarter of the world's oil, and that oil is purchased on a global market. If we were to give more leases to Chevron or Exxon/Mobile, they would turn around and sell them on that same global market.

Obama agreed with the premise that we have to "fix" Social Security, a solution in search of a problem. The myth of a Social Security "crisis" has been well and thoroughly debunked -- but it formed the basis of one of Brokaw's questions (I almost threw something at the TV when Brokaw said that "everyone agreed" on the need for "reform").

When it comes to Medicare and Medicaid, there are real problems of sustainability. But that's something that can only be fixed by revamping America's dysfunctional health care system. The best question of the night, in my view, was whether the candidates viewed health care as a commodity. It was a serious and important question, and one that both men predictably tap-danced around and didn't ultimately touch.

Things are bad in this country, and we deserve a lot better discussion than we've gotten during this campaign (even though I'd concede that it's more substantive than those of recent memory). If I had to choose a winner, I'd say it was Obama on appearances -- McCain seemed fidgety and old, while Obama came off as smooth and authoritative.

But in the final analysis, it's the American public that loses every time matters of great import are reduced to tried-and-true stump-speech zingers.

David Sirota from Open Left:

It's stunning how uncomfortable and uninformed John McCain is when it comes to economic issues. I know it's not his forte, but he's been in the Congress for a quarter century, and was the chairman of the Commerce Committee, so he should have at least a basic command over these issues. He doesn't.

Barack Obama may be the most likeable politician in modern American history. I've always thought that to be the case, from the time I spent a day with him two years ago all the way through the Democratic primary to now. I disagree with him on some issues, and he has really disappointed me at times. But the guy is a terrific communicator, clearly empathetic in a genuine way (as opposed to an annoying Bill Clinton lip-biting way), and he doesn't talk down to people; it makes him a really likeable person. That seemed to especially shine through, as evidenced by CBS News' poll showing a 20-point jump for him on the question of whether he "understands voters' needs and problems."

Isaac Fitzgerald:

I do not trust a person who tries to endear themselves to me before making their intentions clear. On the street, or in a bar, whenever someone I don't know calls me "friend," I figure that person is trying to pull a fast one on me.

John McCain must have said "my friends" a dozen times.

McCain didn't come off as a statesman in Nashville; he came off as a con artist, and not a very convincing one at that. He was shifty, unable to sit still and often wandered around the stage while Obama was speaking. When McCain spoke he was uneven and frequently repeated himself. In a debate setting that was supposed to be McCain's home turf, the town hall, McCain seemed nervous.

And rightfully so, where McCain seemed uneasy, Obama seemed relaxed and comfortable -- one might even go so far as to use the word presidential. Obama's answers were to the point, often focusing on the struggles of working class families. His quips were on target too; when he made a jab at his opponent, or a joke with the audience, his words were well received. McCain's jokes, on the other hand, even when reaching out to his friend Tom Brokaw, fell flat. Much more importantly, McCain made zero mentions of the middle class, just like the first debate. Forgetting to mention the backbone of this country once is a mistake; twice is unforgivable.

When it comes right down to it, debates are all about the portrait each candidate paints of themselves to present to the public. For Obama last night, that picture was an excellent one: a person you could trust. For McCain, it was of someone who dearly wanted to be your friend, but couldn't really explain why.

Ian Welsh from FireDogLake.com: Obama coolly dispatches punch drunk McCain

So, ok, clearly Obama won again. We don't even need to see the polls to know that. He comes across as president already, while John McCain comes across as an angry doddering old man.

Here's what I don't understand. Essentially McCain made the same sort of mistakes he made last time. Not friendly enough, not calm, awful body language and so on. Not a statesman. Not a reassuring elder who's seen it all and who can be trusted to deal with it now.

I don't believe that his handlers don't know this. I don't believe they didn't know this after the first debate. It was dead clear. So, does John McCain not know this? Are they not able to tell it to him? Does he not listen? Why do they not have someone coaching him? Ditch some campaign appearances and spend hours working on his body language, his voice tone and give him answers that are statesmanlike.

Or is John "Maverick" McCain too angry to listen? Too frazzled, too tired, too unable to make a change from a game plan that clearly isn't working. Is it the campaign? Or is it him?

Either way, it's actually kind of sad. What I see in John McCain is an old tired man whose anger doesn't just come from being behind but from having worked beyond capacity for too long. He doesn't have Obama's stamina, nor does he have the sense Obama had in taking a week's holiday to recharge. The best thing that the McCain campaign could do now is to come up with some reason to give him the better part of 3 days off. Let Palin campaign for him, she pretty much does anyway. Let him recover.

I doubt it would matter to the end result, but at least we might not be treated to Obama coolly dismantling what amounts to a punch-drunk McCain who can neither think nor speak straight.

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Comments are closed-

America lost last night
Posted by: Col. Jackleg on Oct 8, 2008 1:08 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We deserve better. Neither Obama nor McCain demonstrated that he has the stuff to right the terrible downward spiral this nation has endured since Reagan. The craven Bush/Cheney agenda continues to get a "pass" with these two accomplices and their warmongering promises and inane responses to the current economic crisis inspire nothing but more of the same. For the two of them to laud Warren Buffett as a good and likely Sec. of Treasury nominee is downright scary. It's the equivalent of hiring Col. Sanders to be the protector of chicken's rights in the coop. I looked for much, found nothing and left unimpressed and saddened to again realize that this penal colony masquerading as a democracy within a republic can produce nothing better than this. Move over chickens, the coop is about to have many more new occupants and there is no end in sight!

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» Hillary troll? Posted by: Col. Jackleg
» RE: America lost last night Posted by: 8 nontheist
» Nice hit list. Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: AGREE - Posted by: Lauren
» RE: America lost last night Posted by: impeachbushandcheneynow

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Obama won for three reasons.
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin on Oct 8, 2008 1:23 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Smart beats stupidity
2. Truth trumps lies
3. Young is better than old

One more thing for NEW AlterNet visitors. If you are an undecided voter, learn the truth about Old Man McCain and his so-called "heroic" war record by clicking on: Vote Against McCain (one of the HOTTEST anti-McCain sites on the Web)

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So-called "need for reforms"
Posted by: veig on Oct 8, 2008 2:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Joshuah Holland wrote : I almost threw something at the TV when Brokaw said that "everyone agreed" on the need for "reform"

You're welcome. We've heard that catch-phrase in the mainstream media over and over on the European side of the pond as well for the last 20 years or so, including the most "socialist" countries (I live in France). I'm sick and tired of hearing those unsubstantiated claims form pundits who have become opinion prescriptors for everyone, and whose agenda is being paid for by large, private insurance companies.
These corporations would be the first to benefit from a privatisation of the social security systems here. And they're still demanding it, while begging taxpayers for relief from the financial mess they've gotten into... these guys have no shame.

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» RE: Indeed! Posted by: Cybershaman

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It's Obama by a hair
Posted by: Tom Degan on Oct 8, 2008 2:43 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
John McCain needed what he didn't even come close to getting - a knockout punch. His biggest argument against Senator Obama seems to be that he has never stood up to the leadership of his party and Senator McCain has stood up to the leadership of his. There's no argument to that statement but think about it for a minute: Although the Democrats are far from perfect, there's a lot less reason to "stand up to the leadership" then to the unreasonable positions of the leadership of the GOP. It's akin to Satan accusing Gabriel of refusing to stand up to his leadership. It doesn't get any stupider than this, does it?

Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
Character and Distractions

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» RE: It's Obama by a hair Posted by: Shehova
» RE: It's Obama by a hair Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: It's Obama by a hair Posted by: Shehova
» RE: It's Obama by a hair Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: It's Obama by a hair Posted by: Karl.Ben
» RE: It's Obama by a hair Posted by: wal55
» Come to the Dark Side, Tom Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: Come to the Dark Side, Tom Posted by: Tom Degan

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Another Farse ...
Posted by: mmckinl on Oct 8, 2008 2:50 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The whole thing was scripted. Questions and answers ...

And where were Nader, McKinney and Barr ?

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» RE: Another Farse ... Posted by: Mexitli
» RE: Another Farse ... Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Another Farse ... Posted by: Erin
» RE: Another Farse ... Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Another Farse ... Posted by: rww

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Out of Touch
Posted by: Michel on Oct 8, 2008 3:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From Don Hazen:

"Doesn't he get it that the more he talks about the past, the less he is seen as the man for the future?"

The answer is very obviously no to those of us on the left side of the isle.

What I don't understand is why the hell the folks on the right refuse to (or can't) see it. Now more than ever we appear to be at a fork in the road. Whatever happens with regard to the election moving forward this country is in for HUGE change. Old ideas and ideals will not get us to where we need to be which is to be able to, once again, stand tall, INDEPENDENT, proud, secure and well respected in the world community.

Electing McCain simply will not get us there-ever.

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Outcome of Debates
Posted by: Tom Berry on Oct 8, 2008 3:54 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama and Biden are the clear winners. Dinasour McCain and Unable Palin will be left in the dust.

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he winner is..
Posted by: Karl.Ben on Oct 8, 2008 3:56 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
not us........

Same old stuff.

Nothing surprising at all.. Obama is willing to invade another country to get Bin Laden and McCain would rather cultivate a working relationship ..wait.. who's the democrat here? Typical McCain, do what makes sense, not what your party wants!

The tax fight was interesting.. McCain is correct, Obama has had about 7 different tax plans.. which one will he have once elected?

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Thank you Joshua Holland
Posted by: PopRox80 on Oct 8, 2008 4:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your analysis was by far the best in this article. It summed up my level of disgust for this farce perfectly.

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» RE: DITTO Josh Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Thank you Joshua Holland Posted by: mahabhusuku
» RE: Thank you Joshua Holland Posted by: fanny666

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Obama had several "deer-in-the-headlights" moments
Posted by: Blink on Oct 8, 2008 4:14 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
but I must concede that it is looking more and more likely that this Empty Suit is actually going to win. If he does, I hope it is by a landslide and not close. Let's have a clear winner with a clear mandate, and spare us the lectures about what he's inheriting. He's asking for the position and promising he can do all of these things, so let's see him try and without excuses. The country was lost long ago anyway, so we might as well hasten its demise and put this Big Nothing in charge.

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How are the mighty fallen
Posted by: phshafe on Oct 8, 2008 4:20 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No, we do not deserve better. We are getting the mediocre and potentially dangerous candidates we deserve. We are the ones who accepted wholesale slaughter of foreign children so we could get the oil lying under their land. We acceded to every manner of corporate and governmental abuse in exchange for easy credit and gas on demand. As phrased by someone better than I, we gave up honor for temporary material gain, and in the end, deserve, and will have, neither. Pity us.

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» RE: How are the mighty fallen Posted by: HoboHomo

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Reaching across the Aisle
Posted by: SENILEBIKER on Oct 8, 2008 4:24 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mc Cain said at least twice that he reached across the Aisle to Joe Liebermann - Joe Liebermann has long since leapt across the Aisle to McCain's side.

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» Mature Posted by: BCcovers
» RE: Mature Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Mature Posted by: jimidee

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All you need to know
Posted by: chlamor on Oct 8, 2008 4:51 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As you know: In the face of public outrage over -- and House rejection of -- the Bush administration's attempt at a $700 billion extortion -- a "gift" of your money to the very same people who have caused a global financial crisis -- administration hacks reacted in predictable fashion, throwing in another $100 billion worth of bribes in a shameless bid to get the bill passed.

Then the Senate approved, by a 3-1 margin, a thrown-together 450-page bill that few of them could have had time to read, much less consider.

Consider? No other options were considered at all, or even deemed worthy of consideration. And suddenly all the pressure was on the House.

The phones were ringing off the hook in the offices of "our" "Representatives", with public sentiment more or less equally divided between "NO!" and "HELL, NO!"

But the House passed the bill anyway.

This tells you all you need to know.

They don't care what you think. They don't have to. You're only a voter. There's a good chance that they can control the way you think, and thus the way you vote. And even if they can't do that, they can still control the way your vote is counted. Ever since they learned how to do these two things -- perception management and election rigging -- they haven't had to care about you one way or the other. Not that they ever did. They never cared about you -- not a bit. The difference now is that they don't even have to pretend anymore.

Meanwhile, very quietly, Congress allocated another $615 billion of your money to keep the Pentagon going for another year of death and destruction -- anywhere, anytime, and preferably by remote control, if the monsters-in-control have their way.

We don't want this. Some of us have never wanted this; others have recently realized that they've had enough! But they don't care. They don't have to.

We have no money for health care. We have no money for education. We have no money to fix our roads and bridges, and we especially have no money for the people who have lost everything they owned, to hurricanes or predatory lending schemes or medical bills. And yet we have hundreds of billions every year for killing foreigners, and hundreds of billions more for ... for what, exactly?

Except that we don't have the money; we'll be borrowing that money to give it away, and paying interest on it forever. It's an enormous "gift" from us and our children and their children, a gift we have been (or will be) forced to "give".

And the rich will get richer, and the poor will get slaughtered, and if you are an American taxpayer, you will pay for it. That's the New American Deal -- the economic setup for the New American Century.

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» RE: All you need to know Posted by: beijaflor

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Supporting Democrats is a serious political disorder
Posted by: chlamor on Oct 8, 2008 4:54 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Supporting Democrats is a serious political disorder, like alcoholism or returning again & again to an abusive spouse who repeatedly lies to you. It's easy to fall off the wagon, to make excuses & rationalizations for it.

Even many whose views are developed enough to recognize such truths as the fundamental rottenness of the 2-party system & the complicity of Democrats in all of the Republicans' major crimes, are still unable to draw the logical consequences of these insights. (Those so naive that they still conceive of Democrats as being the "opponents" of Republicans are another case altogether.)

The central point is this: capitalist society permits the Democrats to be one of the 2 allowed parties for a very definite reason. It's not because the Democrats "serve the people." It's because in a subtle but effective way, they help the capitalists keep the populace under control by providing them with the illusion of possible change. TPTB don't want the people "served." They want them managed, or controlled.

It is the job, the central social function of the Democrats to always be dangling before the people's noses vague pseudo-hints of possible change, so as to keep them from bolting from bourgeois politics altogether. It is the Democrats' intention to never deliver meaningful change, but rather to keep dangling hints of it alluringly forever. This produces control -- a populace habituated to remain safely within the lines required by ruling class interests.

This is why the Democrats NEVER paint a picture of US history that's the slightest bit accurate -- they want a brainwashed population every bit as much as the Republicans do. This is why they NEVER are willing to set forth an honest socioeconomic analysis of why things are as they are -- they much prefer that people not understand such things.

As long as a large chunk of voters can be deceived by the seemingly "nicer guy" act of the Democrats, there is no hope whatever of coming to grips with the core problems of our society. The most dangerous trends -- a wasteful consumer society, environmental destruction, grotesque social inequality, and an uncontrollable propaganda/war machine -- cannot even be approached within the framework of bourgeois politics, because they all serve ruling class interests. This is what is really being protected, when people opt to support Democrats just because they seem less blatantly cruel on TV.

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» Don't Support Them... Posted by: pdxjoe
» RE: FDR was not an illusion Posted by: bessie

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No contest
Posted by: Democritus on Oct 8, 2008 5:24 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
McCain talked about doing all these things that needed doing at the same time, while walking around seemingly gasping for air. I said to myself, "How can he do all these things when he might not be able to make it off the platform?"

At the other podium there was Barack Obama: cool-hand Luke.

Obama's strategy was not to get himself painted into a left-wing corner, and he succeeded. McCain wanted to battle the guy who was associated with Bill Ayers, but he didn't show up. Instead, the guy who showed up also showed that he was young, energetic, and quick-minded; whereas, the other guy was old, used-up, and out of ideas.

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McCain's discussion was interesting
Posted by: ReallyBearish on Oct 8, 2008 5:26 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It sounded to me like he was cobbling various talking points together like a poor cut and paste job. Granted, both sides used talking points and avoided debating much of the time, but McCain seemed to be a stream of pieces not quite fitting together. His base may be moved mostly by how he looked, but he better hope that they weren't really LISTENING.

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That one
Posted by: PaulK on Oct 8, 2008 5:27 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Klingon greeting: "What is this?", as in, "Get this garbage off my bridge!" The newcomer is pointedly not recognized.

Apparently Senator McCain's campaign is going to stick with a "That one" theme.

Perhaps Sen. McCain wants to first extract major concessions before he'll negotiate face to face with Sen. Obama.

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» RE: That one Posted by: Michel
» RE: That one Posted by: kungfuma
» RE: That one Posted by: Michel

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Da American PEOPLE
Posted by: Dee1276 on Oct 8, 2008 5:48 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"We deserve better" one commenter states? I fear the American PEOPLE are going to get just what they deserve: a befuddled flag waving old con artist . McCain's trainers know just who they are talking to when they go along with the "my friends" chant, the smarmy "America is the greatest..." the goodest cliches. WE, Americans, can do anything? Well, what have we done to help the survivors of Katrina?

There are too many Americans who are comfortable with crap. Obama's dignity and intelligence offends them. McCain can get away with inaccuracies, lies and defamatory innuendos because he speaks to the critical mass of our population who are ignorant and fearful. They are crazy for Palin. Snide and Smirky beat out informed and intelligent any day, every day.

It's easier and more self serving to see ourselves as valiant, misunderstood victims of a jealous outside world than to confront our own mistakes and misdeeds, our own greed and stupidity.

American People who think for themselves; who read books; who actually mix with, talk to people from other countries, who demonstrate interest in or concern for anyone outside their little clot of like minded folks are marginalized.

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» RE: Da American PEOPLE Posted by: songbird1268

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Did anyone else ...
Posted by: Cybershaman on Oct 8, 2008 5:50 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...catch McCains offhand remark about 'some of the $700 billion going into the hands of terrorists'? I had to back up and check that one out again. It was completely out of context. It was like he had to throw that talking point out there sometime and just blurted it out. Fear mongering at it's best, even kinda subliminal.

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IF YOU HAVE ANY DOUBTS JUST GOOGLE KEATING ECONOMICS- MCAIN INSANE
Posted by: stopthemaddness2 on Oct 8, 2008 5:52 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just google Keating Economics. Spend the best 13 minutes since the $700 BILLION Bailout Payout! If you are undecided, that will cinch it for you guaranteed. McCain is wrong for the nation. He was winded, mid way through the debate. He was stealing every ideology that OBAMA presented. He borrowed from Regan, Hoover, Rosevelt, and Hillary and even OBAMA's himself. It was shameful and sad. He was hanging on to every railing, leaning on the back end of his chair for support and was visually worn out by the time the debate ended. We must have some one with foresight, diplomacy, leadership, and stamina to hit the ground running and McCain has no more steam. That was clear to everybody. He never had a platform to begin with, and the Platform became Palin.. and that she is unthinkable to be running the oval office should he succumb to more illness.

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STILL UNDECIDED? SPEND THE BEST 13 MINUTES SINCE THE NEWS OF THE $700 BILL BAILOUT- GOOGLE THIS
Posted by: stopthemaddness2 on Oct 8, 2008 6:04 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Still undecided? Well spend the best 13 minutes since the news hit that we were being forced to bailout Wall Street to the tune of $700BILLION. If this debate didn't cinch it for you, this short 13 minute video will, guaranteed. McCain was heavily embroiled in a major deregulation scandal and investigated by the Federal government, and his pal was indicted. ALL FACTS! Here's a question, why would you trust someone who did two things: Voted 90% of the time with George DUBUA? When our entire nation is in the toilet.
And second: Vietnam Vets do not like him, or his military voting record in the Senate. These two things alone should raise serious questions. McCain has been riding on his 50 year old war hero pants. Well, that ain't working today!

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Watch for the little things -- and for poor losers
Posted by: taxidriver on Oct 8, 2008 6:05 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In a "debate" this scripted, you have to watch and listen for little things--signs revealing of a candidate's character. McCain's reference to "that one," his condescending tone to another questioner (whose name he got wrong), his lame attempt at jokes (telling Tom Brokaw that he won't hire him as Treasury Secretary; huh?): all of these indicate a man who's ill at ease with himself as well as others.

But even more revealingly, perhaps: Just after the debate, John and Cindy hurried off the stage, whereas Barack and Michelle stayed behind for about 20 minutes, thanking the audience, signing autographs, etc.

It reminded me of winners and losers at a tennis match: winners often stay behind, sign autographs, etc., and (poor) losers often grab their rackets and stomp off the court, ignoring the fans that ultimately pay their checks.

McCain was the poor loser, stomping off the court and ignoring the audience, the taxpayers, who elect him and pay his salary.

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We Must Change!
Posted by: thinkverybig on Oct 8, 2008 6:08 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's obvious who won the debate and Obama will be our next President. In the meantime, I need your help.

Go to youtube and do a search for "thinkverybig" and watch all of those videos. The one called "We Must Change" would be fitting to recite at Obama's Inauguration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM58nqX1ehE

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DENIED!!! DENIED!!! DENIED!!!
Posted by: DrSuess on Oct 8, 2008 6:14 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
McWorse wants to put “HEALTH HISTORIES ONLINE”!!! Do you know what that means for me? I have had cancer- and so if I want to buy a new home- the bank looks up my health care history and Bam
DENIED!!!
Credit card
DENIED!!!
Any loan of any kind
DENIED!!!
Car Insurance
10 times as much as anyone else
(if you doubt me- why does my credit score have anything to do with the cost of my car insurance? Or my house insurance? But it does. )
What about a Job
DENIED!!!
Now potential employers know my health history- and can screen prospective employees on health. That makes me unemployable. I cannot believe the stupidity of this statement. If it comes to pass it is catastrophe for me

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» RE: DENIED!!! DENIED!!! DENIED!!! Posted by: songbird1268

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watch Nader's Response to the Debates
Posted by: suckerbeagle on Oct 8, 2008 6:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
www.votenader.org
After watching the live stream of Ralph Nader it became all the more clear to me that we heard nothing good in this debate. McCain was predictably horrifying and Obama continues his saber-rattling war talk.Neither is for single payer health care. Neither condemned the bailout. Both referred to it at a 'rescue plan'. Watch Ralph tell it like it is.http://www.votenader.org/live/

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» Anybody notice? Posted by: WhuThe?!?

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"That one"
Posted by: americansheep on Oct 8, 2008 6:23 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama came off so hawkish that when he goes to the White House he may opt to live in a tree on the south lawn and eat field mice. Where are his advisors, and the internet monitors who work with his campaign? His rebuttal about not saying he would invade Pakistan, but he would go in if Paskistan could not or would not. That is invading Pakistan! Why is he repeating this unpopular strategy? When he is elected, we must trim his war talons. He is in the right place at a momentous time to do great deeds,but unless he breaks free from his war hawk mentality,with the attached imperialist storm trooping, he will squander his legacy to be one of mediocrity. Once he is voted in, what is the strategy of "we the people" to hold him to his anti-war promises of yesterday's primary race?

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Obama missed a Fabulous Opportunity- "Afghan Freedom fighters"
Posted by: Purple Girl on Oct 8, 2008 6:30 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And who might that have been who was given aid and comfort by groups like Mac's anti communist party....Why Osama Bin Laden and AQ!!! furnished them with even Boot and a 'Glory Story' to increase Recruitment.
Of course that Devastation this 'Friends' caused on 9/11 to the financial market pales in comparison to what Phil Gramm et al have Done to Our entire Economic Security and future! Talk about a Domestic Terrorist, just look over Mac's right Shoulder!
As For Sarah and Her Separatist Husband, Their 'Independent AK' leader sound like he hold the same Hatred of America as Timothy McVey and his Terrorist group who blew up not only the Fed Building in OK, but killed the Workers and the CHILDREN at Daycare on the Bottom floor!
Her 'Anti Abortion' Fanatism is akin to those who Blew up Planned Parenthood Clinics, Murdered Repro Docs and ignited a Pipebomb at the Atlanta olympics!
Her Church's fantasies of being the Refuge following Armegeddon are EXACTLY Like Charlie Mansons Death Valley 'Refuge'!he too was attempting to spark 'End Of Days' and was a fervant believer in 'Revelations'.funny 40 yrs later and Charlie has been proven Wrong about Gods timing for Judgement Day. Sarah Facilitating or demanding 'End of Days' is above your Pay scale, and Your sociopathic/heretical church's too!
So attempt to build that Bridge to Nowhere from an 8 yr old to a '60's radical. We have already completed our Bridge leading from Mac to his affilaition with Domestic (economic) & International Terrorists.And we have nearly completed the one leading from YOU to the Likes of Timothy McVey and Charlie Manson!

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Obvious
Posted by: RedFoxOne on Oct 8, 2008 6:51 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I thought it was pretty obvious that Obama kicked McBush to the Curb. AGAIN

Jiff
Privacy Center

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» RE: Speak for yourself... Posted by: jimidee

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Comment
Posted by: Willy on Oct 8, 2008 7:06 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Something that, as far as I know, has never been mentioned is what contributed to the fall of the Spanish, Dutch and British empires, and that is the change from a manufacturing economy to a financial economy; that is the reliance on the manipulation of monetary instruments to make money instead of making things.

Unfortunately, this trait seems to be irreversible.

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» RE: Comment Posted by: BCcovers
» What pap! LOL Posted by: Prophit
» Making money at the Casino? Posted by: Cathyc

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This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.

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Pay It Forward!
Posted by: thinkverybig on Oct 8, 2008 7:07 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your help is needed. If you're ready for change, please share this video with all of your family and friends.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM58nqX1ehE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN_pGy_1bEg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD0iAQN7VPY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpfHz_WeXHw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH9BtZwTyHo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWVGsuNecYg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UssvnQMn-EM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdfvQmh3b90

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03Enn5yiY-0



Go to youtube and do a search for "thinkverybig" and watch all of those videos. The one called "We Must Change" would be fitting to recite at Obama's Inauguration.

Here's a community organizer that's reached out to over 20,000 youth and has a goal of touching a million by teaching them the game of life using the game of chess. Click below to watch video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLFENGymr34

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"gold-plated Cadillac?"
Posted by: OceanDog on Oct 8, 2008 7:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ruh roh... Johnny, what kind of car do you drive??? A 2004 Cadillac CTS...

Johnny's trying to call out health insurance policies as "gold-plated Cadillacs" and he drives one. What an idiot.

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Let's not forget the NeoCon problem
Posted by: thistleblower on Oct 8, 2008 7:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not much attention has been placed on these guys lately. You know this is part of the plan somehow. What is their next move?

They have a global ideological agenda and have found a way to sucker the american workforce into financing their urge for armageddon. Obama may have his drawbacks, but it will remove the most important link in the neocon network's chain- the executive branch of our government.

Which is why I think Rove will engineer something to keep the train a chooglin'. I think the october surprise might be Dubya's old drinking buddy, Bin Laden, hanging out in the green room waiting for his cue. Yes, the ultimate symbol of the efficacy of the lunacy that is the global war on terror is Bin Laden's capture.

I'm not sure what sort of deal they will work out.. I mean, the expected reaction is to execute him, but he is a buddy. Possibly a "business" partner in this whole thing. Can Bush stoop so low that he would call Bin laden out of hiding only to off him? Or will Bin laden receive a permanent room in Gitmo, to be forgotten by us and perhaps re-released into the wild? It remains to be seen.

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McCain's DIRTY LITTLE SECRET in Arizona
Posted by: X-POLYGAMIST WIFE on Oct 8, 2008 7:37 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For 26 years John McCain did NOTHING to stop the worst Human Rights violations in America because all 10,000 victims and their abusers vote Republican.

This video will BLOW YOUR MIND.

http://www.bankingonheaven.com/

BANKING ON HEAVEN . COM

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Questions that are never asked
Posted by: JohnJlws on Oct 8, 2008 7:48 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Arianna pointed to questions I keep hoping someone will ask. "The Maverick" always intones the following:

On war
"I know how to win. I've done that. I can do it again and our troops will come home heroes and victorious."

Okay, here's my simple question, when has he done that?

On economy
"I know how to fix it. I've done that. I've been doing it all my life."

Okay, here's the simple question, when has he done that? Great he's against earmarks. How do we reduce the other 9 trillion 9 hundred and 82 billion dollars of the national debt?

On bin Laden
"I know how to catch him. I've done that."

Okay, here's the simple question, why did you let him go?

Arianna asks "McCain also told us he knows how to fix the economy, knows how to win wars and knows how to capture bin Laden. Is there a reason he's keeping all these a secret?"

These are great questions. Here's another one: "Republicans always talk about 'redistribution of wealth' when they talk about Obama's or anyone else's tax plans that might raise Bill Gates' taxes, but why is moving billions of dollars from the poor and middle class to Halliburton and other executives through war and bailouts (it not 'rescue,' John) not 'redistribution of wealth?"

Or, "Why is Obama less American than you?"

Or, "When is it appropriate to allow followers to scream 'terrorist,' or 'kill him' when referring to your opponents?"

I was disappointed with Brokaw's moderation. He was consumed with "staying on time." Here's one for Tom: "We're electing a President; who gives a shit if they run over 12 seconds?" I wasn't, however, disappointed with the results as once again Obama demonstrated his superiority and embarrassed "the maverick."

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» RE: Questions that are never asked Posted by: stopthemaddness2

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jacks12
Posted by: jacks12 on Oct 8, 2008 7:51 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just checked the latest Zogby poll and Barack is still just 3 points ahead. How can this be when every on-line poll last night had Obama winning 80-90 PERCENT of the respondent's votes.
Racism is alive and well in America. Every undecided focus group favored Obama but when asked who THEY were voting for, the CNN group said McCain by like a 13-11 score. UNBELIEVABLE! Anybody who thought McCain won is either Republican, stupid or racist. Barack was a class act in every respect, while McCain was a snarky and hateful, maybe racist, old man. The fact he avoided shaking Obama's hand after the debate said volumes about JM's character and class. Why ANY undecided votes for this jerk is beyond me.

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» RE: jacks12 Posted by: BCcovers
» RE: jacks12 Posted by: 6399

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joels@nccray.net
Posted by: joels on Oct 8, 2008 7:56 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While I have problems with some of the statements of both candidates, McCain obviously won the "debate". Obama did so much stuttering and stammering that, at times, I actually felt sorry for him.

McCain is trying to make the last month about Obama's character; and he should. Obama's character is very questionable. McCain's character is UNimpeachable!

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» Thanks for the chuckle Posted by: JohnJlws

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d julien
Posted by: D. Julian Terry on Oct 8, 2008 8:28 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As someone else mentioned, I am annoyed at commentators who, when analyzing the debate, say things like,"McCain has the edge when it comes to foreign policy and national security".
In my view, Obama has the edge. Just look at the candidtes' predictions of the Iraq war. And perhaps more importantly, the rest of the world(friends and foes alike) want to deal with Obama, not McBush. If we are going to begin to solve the problems that affect us all, we need someone who is respected and whom the world is willing to talk to and work with. It is no wonder that a German poll was 90% for Obama.The world is looking for a US leader who will reach out, not lash out. We and the world need Obama.

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jacks12
Posted by: jacks12 on Oct 8, 2008 8:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How was this studio audience chosen? I don't want to be mean, but some of these people were stupid! Many were so incoherent I didn't understand the question. Maybe an IQ test beforehand would solve this.
The candidates need more follow-up time. If we're to know where they stand, they need the time to explain themselves fully. I know they want as many questions as possible, but we need as clear an answer as possible. This will help voters make an informed decision.

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» Gallup picked the audience Posted by: socialpsych
» An audience of Imbeciles Posted by: Cathyc

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A contest of hollow slogans - "Change we can believe in" + "The Maverick" = BARF!
Posted by: 6399 on Oct 8, 2008 8:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First, let me congratulate both candidates on successfully skirting all major issues with extreme adroitness. There was plenty of filler with the added bonus of trite platitudes that eventually gave way to hollow rhetoric - on both sides. It was often hard to tell when the candidates were deviating from the well-scripted and splendidly rehearsed talking points or just being, ahem, spontaneous.

That McPalin is a hideous parasite that should and will be squashed under America's collective electoral boot goes without saying, but the number of people here, and across wider America, who still cling mindlessly to Obama's empty promises of "Change" and "Hope" . . . well, that's what troubles me most.

The Obama zombie brigade seems to give credence to the notion that the left is nearly as brainwashed as the right. An increasing number of Alterneters may be holding their noses and pulling the lever for Obama, but America's legions of hardcore ObamaManiacs are convinced he's some sort of celestial being sent to earth to redeem mankind. It's actually quite frightening. Who says blind devotion is for the Neocons?

I don't harbor any higher aspirations for McPalin followers; they're a lost cause - irredeemable. But the American left's insistence that there are only two - check that - one viable choice in this election speaks volumes about us as a woefully ignorant and uniformly uninformed, easily-programmable collection of fools.

Let's face facts - we don't have a candidate problem, we have a constituency problem. The leaders we put forward are a mere reflection of the American populous at large: willfully ignorant, apathetic, self-absorbed, arrogant and exhibiting extremely poor judgment.

Why should be expect more from our candidates when they long since realized that the American people are fucking twits who don't know any better. And what's more, they'll sit down and passively take anything thrown at them--so long as it 's served with a generous side helping of Gossip Girl or America's Next Top Model.

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» Good point Posted by: 6399
» Not what I said: Posted by: WhuThe?!?

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Character analysis
Posted by: BaruchZ on Oct 8, 2008 9:02 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Watching the debate I saw a number of things:

1. McCain is physically very rigid. He can barely move his head. I know he has a terrible set of injuries to his arms from his time as a POW but beyond that he holds himself very rigidly. I have been a body oriented psychotherapist for over 25 years. McCain's body language suggests a rigid character and a lack of connection with his emotions.

Obama moves with confidence, he is not rigid, and his body language suggests someone who is grounded, who is connected with his emotions as well as with his thoughts.

2. McCain has obviously had botox treatment on his face. Botox paralyzes the small muscles of the face, creating a rigid mask. Human beings, as we age, change. Our faces change to reflect what has happened to us, our experiences, and our character. Botox creates essentially a mask which hides the true face of the person. What would McCain look like without Botox? What would his face show about his character if it weren't chemically altered by Botox? What is he hiding?

Obama’s face is expressive. He shows who he is with his face, he is not wearing a mask.

3. McCain used a lot of platitudes and attacks, but rarely said anything specific. His responses to the questions lacked substance. He focused on broad ideological responses, but didn't answer the questions.

Obama also didn’t answer the questions directly. He did describe a coordinated set of responses to curent situations, and made connections between the economy, education, and security, and he was less vague than McCain.

I came away from the debate thinking...McCain is an old man who, naturally, cannot see a future because his life is coming to an end. He is not forward thinking because his natural life span is about to end. Obama is younger, and has a future in front of him. He is in the middle of his life span, so he naturally envisions a future.

I would rather have an emotionally connected forward thinking president than a sick old president.

“Flexibility is kin of life. Rigidity is kin of death.” -Lao Tzu

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» RE: Character analysis Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: Character analysis Posted by: BaruchZ
» RE: Character analysis Posted by: aonghus36

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Diplomacy and Iran
Posted by: fanny666 on Oct 8, 2008 9:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wish Obama had nailed home the consequences of Bush's failure to negotiate with Iran a little bit more than he did.

The Iranian president before the current Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was Mohammad Khatami, who by any measure was much much more moderate and peace-seeking than Ahmadinejad is. In fact, one of Khatami's main issues was what he called the Dialogue Among Civilizations, a direct plea for negotiations and talks. He actually sent a Swedish diplomat to the US, to invite your government to participate in direct, unconditional talks with no issues "off the table".

Bush's response was to publicly chastise the Swedish diplomat for stepping out of bounds, and to not even reply to Iran's gesture. That was pretty humiliating for Khatami. In the next election, predictably, the Iranian right-wing ran on a platform of "Khatami is naive to want to talk to the Americans" and they beat him badly. So now Ahmadinejad is the president. And ironically, the right-wing in the US is now running on "Obama is naive to want to talk to the Iranians" and they bring up Ahmadinejad's rhetoric... a person that Bush helped enormously.

(ps, you can read Iranian Newspapers in English)

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how come my comment calling Obama a warmonger removed?
Posted by: PakiBoy on Oct 8, 2008 9:14 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'll say it again:

uncle tom obama needs to be educated that one cannot go to war against a nuclear armed country.

Obama is trying to outflank McCain by trying to come across as more hawkish. He comes across as a total moron on foreign policy.

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» I didn't read your comment.... Posted by: Illiteratilumen

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A beautiful BS session -----
Posted by: symcokid on Oct 8, 2008 9:49 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ends in a tie, they're both losers and it's so very sad. It's too bad Ron Paul would never be considered, but we know that could never happen because he is too honest.

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What a waste of bandwidth this all is. Just like the debates...
Posted by: Prophit on Oct 8, 2008 9:55 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... the real issues aren't even being discussed on here, no wonder our politicians don't talk about them either. None of us wants to know. Well, then we go down and we go down hard. I feel sorry for those who are not watching, and seeing. They will be the first harmed and possible seriously harmed.

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McCain's palpable contempt for Obama
Posted by: Bill Harrington on Oct 8, 2008 9:56 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you, Senator McCain, for evidencing your contempt for Senator Obama last night. It was palpable. If you cannot even engage in a civil and respectful dialogue with a fellow member of the United States Senate, how can any American reasonably expect that you will engage in civil and pragmatic dialogue with other world leaders? The last thing that America needs is another immature, emotional Chief Executive (read: BUSH) who refuses to interract responsibly with the other nations of the world (remember: Axis of Evil). Name calling is not diplomacy, and it is not leadership. McCain is a loose cannon. We saw a glimpse of his anger last night. No thanks.

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America lost a long time ago.
Posted by: tuelster on Oct 8, 2008 10:13 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I watched the debate from Norway (a NATO ally in Scandinavia, Europe, in case you don´t know!?), and what I was left with after the socalled ´international policy´round between Obama and McCain last night was "We have to teach them", "they have to understand", and especially "if they don´t, we have to force them..." "They" and "them" of course being ALL the peoples in all the other countries in the world who don´t understand "us", that is you!!! What we, the non-Americans see, is a huge military machine with bases all over the world mainly based on protecting "your" oil. Before you vote, I recommend Michael T. Klare´s book "Blood and Oil: The Dangers and Consequences of America´s Growing Dependency on Imported Petroleum". That´s all the explanation one needs to understand that the official talk about peace, democrazy and freedom is nothing but a coverup for raw power, with you, the American people as hostages in your emperor´s hands.

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Look, my friends
Posted by: websmith on Oct 8, 2008 10:23 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Both of these guys are offering major tax cuts. Tax cuts cost money and neither one of them has said how they're going to pay for them. Obama's tax increases on people making over $250K per year is not going to do it. This will lead to more borrowing and an increase in the national debt that will soon be $11 trillion, which will lead to inflation, which means we will all pay for the tax cuts. It doesn't matter if the tax cuts are for business or Citizens. We will pay.

This is business as usual at a time when our economy is collapsing. "Look", "my friends", this is total madness.

It's past time to stop doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results each time.

http://ewebsmith.com/self/StandUp.html

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» RE: Look, my friends Posted by: babs

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I'm pleased to see so many comments bashing Obama
Posted by: Illiteratilumen on Oct 8, 2008 10:25 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems that more people, at least those commenting on this site, are beginning to realize that the Democrats are no better than the Republicans.

McCain/Palin would be a disaster, no doubt about it. How much better would Obama be? He just voted yes for the bailout bill. He voted yes for FISA. He's got millions of people brainwashed into believing that he is The Answer when his voting record clearly states otherwise.

The first pieces of shit have hit the fan. I hope it really starts to fly soon.

Keep waking up people!

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BROKAW SHOWED HIS TRUE COLORS IN THE DEBATE... OBAMA STILL WON HANDS DOWN & HE KNEW IT
Posted by: stopthemaddness2 on Oct 8, 2008 10:31 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THIS POST IS FOR Johnlws:
Your post made my day, it made me laugh with agreement, and glee. What has McCain done in his 26 years in the Senate? Nothing! What will he do as president? Nothing! He embroiled himself in one of the biggest Deregulation scandals similar to our 700BIL Bailout, handout. And the results are in. We lost, they won. He didn't fix it, he helped to break it. Keating scandal was all about DEREGULATION! And His close TIES to Charles Keating who was convicted of wrong doing.

He has voted 90% of the time with George Dubua. What does that tell you? And where are we now? In the biggest economic turmoil and disaster filtering down to every segment of AMERICAN life domestic and now foreign, Hell, its gone GLOBAL!!!

His voting record and our military... he fixed that all right. The Vietnam Veterans, many of them, find him deplorable, his military record stinks and is questionable in terms of secrets he may have given and his voting record in the SENATE is not TROOP friendly. Military- Pentegon friendly, but not Troop friendly, and there is a BIG DIFFERENCE!!! He voted NO on safety improvements for the Troops. He voted No on an amended bill that would give a delay for deployment allowing Troops to get a rest between deployments, HE VOTED NO, Can you believe that? He voted NO on Corporate loop holes to fund 1.2 Bill for better Veteran Health care This man (THAT ONE) doesn't care ABOUT YOU, ME OR JOE SIX PACK TAX PAYER. And the Vietnam Veterans aren't forgetting this...
If you make $500,000, you might be on his page. If not, well, you are not on his page.

Obama talks about Bin Laden, McCain has only mentioned it when in debate. The BUSH Administration, has not mentioned his name in a great while, months and months and months now. Why is that?

McCain, now 72 years old, thought he could easily ride straight into the white house by the seat of his 50 YEAR OLD POW HERO PANTS! Not NOW, Not Today. There was a time in our history when that would have worked, A POW Hero, but not now, not today, no way McCain. And his Hero is questionable! Not NOW POW!

He was visibly WORN out last night midway through the debate, he became very winded. That is NOT PRESIDENTIAL, especially what this nation is facing... He was holding on the back of his chair a lot, and leaning on the railings. He was barely making it across the room. JUST OLD, TOO OLD and SICKLY!!! He stole the ideology of Roosevelt, Hoover, Regan, Hillary and OBAMA. He didn't have his own. Never did. Never does. Never will be able to hold his own.

The Economy, he will fix it. I think not ever. He is part of the problem. Period. KEATING, just google that and watch the 13 minute video and it talks about that scandal... he was heavily embroiled in with his pal who was indicted. The man is wrong.

BROKAW, SHOWED HIS TRUE COLORS. An obvious McCain supporter and it showed! He was miffed that OBAMA did so well and McCain didn't, which compelled him to be suddenly obsessed with the TIME!!!! GIVE ME A BREAK!!!! We all saw through that glass sealing!

OBAMA wiped the floor with him, again and again. I enjoyed it and my popcorn.

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This "debate" was meaningless without 3rd/Independent Party candidates.
Posted by: maxpayne on Oct 8, 2008 11:18 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And yeah, both Mccain and Obama sucked as their voting records are already showing ! To hell with both parties !

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» RE: I ditto that wholeheartedly, Maxpayne Posted by: impeachbushandcheneynow

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VOTE FOR "THAT ONE"!
Posted by: Johnny Chingas on Oct 8, 2008 1:24 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
McCain showed he has no class. When I saw him refer to Obama as "that one" it even offended ME. People have been saying "bring on the t-shirts".

Well, I'm happy to oblige.
voteforthatoneshirts.com

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TCM aired "The Graduate" last night
Posted by: audreyvest on Oct 8, 2008 1:40 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
during the debates. Remember the line from the Simon and Garfunkle song about listening to the candidates debate? It went something like this: "Laugh about it, shout about it when it's time to choose, anyway you look at it you lose." A perfect comment on this debate in my mind.

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Todd Palin is a FILF
Posted by: HoboHomo on Oct 8, 2008 2:04 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
:b

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Send a Message in NOV.
Posted by: mtatasmith on Oct 8, 2008 2:18 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Only vote for the presidential candidates and screw the rest .... what goes around comes around..or..do unto others what they have just done to you....I feel sick saying this!!!

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McCain got the last word in this 'debate' and its was pure waffle!
Posted by: Cathyc on Oct 8, 2008 3:39 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've just watched the end of this so-called debate and McCain had the privilege of ending it with a load of words that did not add up to a one coherent sentence. I was sort of (not really) expecting an interpreter to jump on stage and explain to the audience what McCain had just said!

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A Floating Zombie
Posted by: bessie on Oct 9, 2008 12:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's no way to describe McCain's bizarre performance as a floating zombie during the 'town hall meeting'. He was wandering and grunting all around the stage and even at one point appeared in front of Brohaw and Obama when Obama was answering a question. Great material for SNL. Good thing for McCain that Obama declined to do more townhall meetings before because the election would have been finished a lot earlier. Something is going on with McCain - dementia or hydrocelphaulus - and today he called his crowd his 'prisoners'. Well, I'm feeling like a prisoner with this awful campaign that never ends and our tanking economy and Bush, Inc. in charge of us all. It would really be funny if it weren't so tragic and preventable. This floating zombie has also given us the most hateful, retarded person to be President by default that I've ever seen. So that's something I can't quite forgive. Sarah Palin would flunk out of most high schools today. Our children endure pressures and standards that require some knowledge and Palin doesn't seem to read or to remember much. I'd have some sympathy for McCain, our floating zombie, except for the fact that he threatens us all and for all of his enablers they are too. I always had this awful feeling about that movie, "Night of the Living Dead", and no wonder, I do know that a floating zombie is not my friend.

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BIG BROTHER "Always knows what it's like!"
Posted by: rwcbanzai on Oct 9, 2008 2:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Brothers & Sisters:

“It’s a no brainer… FAMILY 1ST , - then the nation, I‘m talking from first hand experience!“. My big brother made perfectly clear on our way home after watching Religuous & Eagle Eye.
On the other hand, is Eagle Eye, a movie about an evil eye (computer) out to blow up our congressional House with a “crystal bomb” that can only be activated by a sweetart (kid with trumpet) hitting the right shrill note. Without giving the PLOT (F.I.S.A. - Freedom of Information Surveillance Act} ) of the movies away, I will return to my down to earth big brother who is more concerned about smelling the blossoms along the way, than seeing where they came from.
Wow what a family intervention, that constant angry/evil left blinking eye and that contentious tone of hate for his opponent from the presidential debate as I tuned in, and turned on to what was being said as I got home - mixed with those emotional movies of the reality of our present circumstances that we are currently buried in - deciding on what political party to choose for a secure economic/political future. I made my decision after watching that “pit bull with lipstick” gold digging to become the first female prez after Mc’Pain goes to the promised land from the CANCER of HATE now consuming him.
This guy, who was never my LEGISLATIVE friend, wants his pension and title in our history knowing full well he won’t outlive the next four years all the while leaving us with his vengeful poison pill, that cheerleading sweetart for oil. I guess he thinks its FUNNY as did “that” other eight year BUSHwacker who selected Darth Cheney (always ready - shotgun in his bunker manipulator) as a toxic afterthought (like another never ending war).
However, McPain really got my attention when he said “that one” it reminded me of the GoOP code word/language for “dem” (“civil right” democratic troublemakers) and that condescending tone directed at someone fully capable but despised due to less seniority (Drucker‘s “Peter Principle“) and color .
Yes, we & McPain have something in common, only in that we watched that old 70’s sitcom “That Girl”, of an aspiring ditsy actress making altruistic waves in youthful exuberance for a funnier brighter future! I would vote for my older brother or her before I would vote for more pain/gold digging and luckily I have a better choice with an educated half white man! Something we don’t really know about Barack!
Yes, a white man - half African. I was made in the US Army and born in a military base called Camp Zama with a white dad from Indiana and an Asian mother from Japan. I’m white with Asian overtones - an American/Japanese. Just as he sounds white with African overtones - White/African! This is the 21st Century where we can communicate on that black box that can store info forever, transported over the wire at the speed of light in our World Wide MONITORED Web with no reference to race or cute looks (N.S.A. - WINK that evil eye)!
Last of all , this takes me to our gutsy gay mistress Cher and her song “Half Breed” and that never ending struggle to justify pedigree or social status. Just ponder when you mix two sub species and you get a Hybrid and what these breeds can do for your gas mileage! Don’t mix your personal prejudicial preferences with your projecting hateful discrimination - this is AMERICA, the land of the free -
for truth, justice & the American Way (Superman another extraterrestrial hybrid! ). Let’s now go to Cheryl Crow and her song “Change will do ya good”). Is there a happy tone to our future bleakness (singing that eight year old - Same old Gobbledygoop terrorizing song?) or can we really enjoy the fresh oncoming change/smell of happiness blooming?
Just ask my big brother, he always knows what it‘s like - before I do!

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photog3000
Posted by: photog3000 on Oct 9, 2008 6:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just got my "That One" T-Shirt

http://www.cafepress.com/postersnmore/4630692

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photog3000
Posted by: photog3000 on Oct 9, 2008 7:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I got my "That One" T-Shirt
Here

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Lesser of Two Evils
Posted by: photog3000 on Oct 9, 2008 7:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Democrans or Republocrats...what's the difference?
Obama/Biden'08

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akmk
Posted by: akmk on Oct 9, 2008 1:56 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Senator Obama exemplifies family values. He honors his parents, grandparents, and his extended family in Kenya, Kansas, and Hawaii. He has been married to one beautiful woman for sixteen years and has two delightful young daughters. He's worked in communities to better the lives of children, teenagers, and families. He respects women and works to uphold their rights. His economic proposals are designed to help and lift up working families. He has detailed plans for a better health care system that will make health care more available and affordable for all families. He understands that families need clean air, clean water, healthy food, and adequate shelter. He has his own Christian faith, but does not impose that faith on others. He leads by example, with integrity and compassion.

In the recent Town Hall debate, Obama clearly stated his priorities. #1: Implement a smarter and more diverse energy policy that would invest in new American jobs, turn the economy around and stabilize world tensions. #2: Health care is a right. He detailed proposals that would emphasize prevention and reduce the grip of insurance and drug company lobbyists.

As a rural Alaska woman, I support these priorities and the Obama/Biden team in 2008. Palin is not "the reformer" she purports to be. We need no more of McCain’s reckless choices.

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» Odinga Posted by: Larry Sinclair

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Sideline Observations..."Who Won the Debate?...."That One"!
Posted by: wordweaver on Oct 11, 2008 10:45 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My son, who missed the debate due to a scheduling conflict, asked me what Senator Obama's response was to being referred to as "that one". I can't imagine that in his gut Senator Obama did not have the urge to take McCain out back and open up a can of South Chicago whup a__ on him. But once again he prevailed with his calm, confident, knowledgeable and Presidential demeanor. Senator Obama outshone his opponent by effectively addressing the real issues that concern the middle class. It's become even more apparent that McCain will do and say anything to win, honor be damned. If he and his surrogates continue their current fierce campaign of fear and smear politics, I feel it will be entirely appropriate and relevant for Senator Obama in his final debate closing remarks to address Senator McCain as follows, "John we've worked together in the past and I have hope that with the healing that comes with the passing of time, we will be able to work together during my administration, but, right here, right now, I have to tell you that I am genuinely embarrassed for you. I've meant it when I've honored your service and expressed my admiration for the courage you displayed in captivity, but you have besmirched your name and your honor by running the most vile and mean-spirited campaign this country has witnessed in modern times. And so tonight all I can really bring myself to share with you is shame on you, John McCain, shame on you.
And I can't close without expressing my pleasure with the whupping Obama's communications director put on Sean Inanity....hey Sean is that infomercial career I suggested in a recent post looking a bit more attractive?

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AMERICAS OUT DOOR VOTERS WON
Posted by: truman on Oct 12, 2008 8:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Democrats were very angry at the Bush win four years ago. They are fighting hard this election. We need a diplomatic refined president that can communicate and play an important role in defusing existing divisive political rhetoric. America is like a huge high school. America is Educated to worship the gladiators to tolerate and nurse them back to the battlefield. In high school if you didn't already have a life ,or weren't in gear with your own personal battles and values, high School had a plan laid out for you, who to beat where to beat them,when to be angry and what to do to them. I am proud what the democrats are doing this year. Makes you want to go outside and cook on the grill serve up your own peace talks with friends and family.

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America lost last night
Posted by: Col. Jackleg on Oct 8, 2008 1:08 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We deserve better. Neither Obama nor McCain demonstrated that he has the stuff to right the terrible downward spiral this nation has endured since Reagan. The craven Bush/Cheney agenda continues to get a "pass" with these two accomplices and their warmongering promises and inane responses to the current economic crisis inspire nothing but more of the same. For the two of them to laud Warren Buffett as a good and likely Sec. of Treasury nominee is downright scary. It's the equivalent of hiring Col. Sanders to be the protector of chicken's rights in the coop. I looked for much, found nothing and left unimpressed and saddened to again realize that this penal colony masquerading as a democracy within a republic can produce nothing better than this. Move over chickens, the coop is about to have many more new occupants and there is no end in sight!

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» Hillary troll? Posted by: Col. Jackleg
» RE: America lost last night Posted by: 8 nontheist
» Nice hit list. Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: AGREE - Posted by: Lauren
» RE: America lost last night Posted by: impeachbushandcheneynow

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Obama won for three reasons.
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin on Oct 8, 2008 1:23 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Smart beats stupidity
2. Truth trumps lies
3. Young is better than old

One more thing for NEW AlterNet visitors. If you are an undecided voter, learn the truth about Old Man McCain and his so-called "heroic" war record by clicking on: Vote Against McCain (one of the HOTTEST anti-McCain sites on the Web)

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So-called "need for reforms"
Posted by: veig on Oct 8, 2008 2:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Joshuah Holland wrote : I almost threw something at the TV when Brokaw said that "everyone agreed" on the need for "reform"

You're welcome. We've heard that catch-phrase in the mainstream media over and over on the European side of the pond as well for the last 20 years or so, including the most "socialist" countries (I live in France). I'm sick and tired of hearing those unsubstantiated claims form pundits who have become opinion prescriptors for everyone, and whose agenda is being paid for by large, private insurance companies.
These corporations would be the first to benefit from a privatisation of the social security systems here. And they're still demanding it, while begging taxpayers for relief from the financial mess they've gotten into... these guys have no shame.

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» RE: Indeed! Posted by: Cybershaman

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It's Obama by a hair
Posted by: Tom Degan on Oct 8, 2008 2:43 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
John McCain needed what he didn't even come close to getting - a knockout punch. His biggest argument against Senator Obama seems to be that he has never stood up to the leadership of his party and Senator McCain has stood up to the leadership of his. There's no argument to that statement but think about it for a minute: Although the Democrats are far from perfect, there's a lot less reason to "stand up to the leadership" then to the unreasonable positions of the leadership of the GOP. It's akin to Satan accusing Gabriel of refusing to stand up to his leadership. It doesn't get any stupider than this, does it?

Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
Character and Distractions

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» RE: It's Obama by a hair Posted by: Shehova
» RE: It's Obama by a hair Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: It's Obama by a hair Posted by: Shehova
» RE: It's Obama by a hair Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: It's Obama by a hair Posted by: Karl.Ben
» RE: It's Obama by a hair Posted by: wal55
» Come to the Dark Side, Tom Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: Come to the Dark Side, Tom Posted by: Tom Degan

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Another Farse ...
Posted by: mmckinl on Oct 8, 2008 2:50 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The whole thing was scripted. Questions and answers ...

And where were Nader, McKinney and Barr ?

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» RE: Another Farse ... Posted by: Mexitli
» RE: Another Farse ... Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Another Farse ... Posted by: Erin
» RE: Another Farse ... Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Another Farse ... Posted by: rww

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Out of Touch
Posted by: Michel on Oct 8, 2008 3:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From Don Hazen:

"Doesn't he get it that the more he talks about the past, the less he is seen as the man for the future?"

The answer is very obviously no to those of us on the left side of the isle.

What I don't understand is why the hell the folks on the right refuse to (or can't) see it. Now more than ever we appear to be at a fork in the road. Whatever happens with regard to the election moving forward this country is in for HUGE change. Old ideas and ideals will not get us to where we need to be which is to be able to, once again, stand tall, INDEPENDENT, proud, secure and well respected in the world community.

Electing McCain simply will not get us there-ever.

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Outcome of Debates
Posted by: Tom Berry on Oct 8, 2008 3:54 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama and Biden are the clear winners. Dinasour McCain and Unable Palin will be left in the dust.

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he winner is..
Posted by: Karl.Ben on Oct 8, 2008 3:56 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
not us........

Same old stuff.

Nothing surprising at all.. Obama is willing to invade another country to get Bin Laden and McCain would rather cultivate a working relationship ..wait.. who's the democrat here? Typical McCain, do what makes sense, not what your party wants!

The tax fight was interesting.. McCain is correct, Obama has had about 7 different tax plans.. which one will he have once elected?

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Thank you Joshua Holland
Posted by: PopRox80 on Oct 8, 2008 4:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your analysis was by far the best in this article. It summed up my level of disgust for this farce perfectly.

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» RE: DITTO Josh Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Thank you Joshua Holland Posted by: mahabhusuku
» RE: Thank you Joshua Holland Posted by: fanny666

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Obama had several "deer-in-the-headlights" moments
Posted by: Blink on Oct 8, 2008 4:14 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
but I must concede that it is looking more and more likely that this Empty Suit is actually going to win. If he does, I hope it is by a landslide and not close. Let's have a clear winner with a clear mandate, and spare us the lectures about what he's inheriting. He's asking for the position and promising he can do all of these things, so let's see him try and without excuses. The country was lost long ago anyway, so we might as well hasten its demise and put this Big Nothing in charge.

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How are the mighty fallen
Posted by: phshafe on Oct 8, 2008 4:20 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No, we do not deserve better. We are getting the mediocre and potentially dangerous candidates we deserve. We are the ones who accepted wholesale slaughter of foreign children so we could get the oil lying under their land. We acceded to every manner of corporate and governmental abuse in exchange for easy credit and gas on demand. As phrased by someone better than I, we gave up honor for temporary material gain, and in the end, deserve, and will have, neither. Pity us.

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» RE: How are the mighty fallen Posted by: HoboHomo

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Reaching across the Aisle
Posted by: SENILEBIKER on Oct 8, 2008 4:24 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mc Cain said at least twice that he reached across the Aisle to Joe Liebermann - Joe Liebermann has long since leapt across the Aisle to McCain's side.

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» Mature Posted by: BCcovers
» RE: Mature Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Mature Posted by: jimidee

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All you need to know
Posted by: chlamor on Oct 8, 2008 4:51 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As you know: In the face of public outrage over -- and House rejection of -- the Bush administration's attempt at a $700 billion extortion -- a "gift" of your money to the very same people who have caused a global financial crisis -- administration hacks reacted in predictable fashion, throwing in another $100 billion worth of bribes in a shameless bid to get the bill passed.

Then the Senate approved, by a 3-1 margin, a thrown-together 450-page bill that few of them could have had time to read, much less consider.

Consider? No other options were considered at all, or even deemed worthy of consideration. And suddenly all the pressure was on the House.

The phones were ringing off the hook in the offices of "our" "Representatives", with public sentiment more or less equally divided between "NO!" and "HELL, NO!"

But the House passed the bill anyway.

This tells you all you need to know.

They don't care what you think. They don't have to. You're only a voter. There's a good chance that they can control the way you think, and thus the way you vote. And even if they can't do that, they can still control the way your vote is counted. Ever since they learned how to do these two things -- perception management and election rigging -- they haven't had to care about you one way or the other. Not that they ever did. They never cared about you -- not a bit. The difference now is that they don't even have to pretend anymore.

Meanwhile, very quietly, Congress allocated another $615 billion of your money to keep the Pentagon going for another year of death and destruction -- anywhere, anytime, and preferably by remote control, if the monsters-in-control have their way.

We don't want this. Some of us have never wanted this; others have recently realized that they've had enough! But they don't care. They don't have to.

We have no money for health care. We have no money for education. We have no money to fix our roads and bridges, and we especially have no money for the people who have lost everything they owned, to hurricanes or predatory lending schemes or medical bills. And yet we have hundreds of billions every year for killing foreigners, and hundreds of billions more for ... for what, exactly?

Except that we don't have the money; we'll be borrowing that money to give it away, and paying interest on it forever. It's an enormous "gift" from us and our children and their children, a gift we have been (or will be) forced to "give".

And the rich will get richer, and the poor will get slaughtered, and if you are an American taxpayer, you will pay for it. That's the New American Deal -- the economic setup for the New American Century.

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» RE: All you need to know Posted by: beijaflor

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Supporting Democrats is a serious political disorder
Posted by: chlamor on Oct 8, 2008 4:54 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Supporting Democrats is a serious political disorder, like alcoholism or returning again & again to an abusive spouse who repeatedly lies to you. It's easy to fall off the wagon, to make excuses & rationalizations for it.

Even many whose views are developed enough to recognize such truths as the fundamental rottenness of the 2-party system & the complicity of Democrats in all of the Republicans' major crimes, are still unable to draw the logical consequences of these insights. (Those so naive that they still conceive of Democrats as being the "opponents" of Republicans are another case altogether.)

The central point is this: capitalist society permits the Democrats to be one of the 2 allowed parties for a very definite reason. It's not because the Democrats "serve the people." It's because in a subtle but effective way, they help the capitalists keep the populace under control by providing them with the illusion of possible change. TPTB don't want the people "served." They want them managed, or controlled.

It is the job, the central social function of the Democrats to always be dangling before the people's noses vague pseudo-hints of possible change, so as to keep them from bolting from bourgeois politics altogether. It is the Democrats' intention to never deliver meaningful change, but rather to keep dangling hints of it alluringly forever. This produces control -- a populace habituated to remain safely within the lines required by ruling class interests.

This is why the Democrats NEVER paint a picture of US history that's the slightest bit accurate -- they want a brainwashed population every bit as much as the Republicans do. This is why they NEVER are willing to set forth an honest socioeconomic analysis of why things are as they are -- they much prefer that people not understand such things.

As long as a large chunk of voters can be deceived by the seemingly "nicer guy" act of the Democrats, there is no hope whatever of coming to grips with the core problems of our society. The most dangerous trends -- a wasteful consumer society, environmental destruction, grotesque social inequality, and an uncontrollable propaganda/war machine -- cannot even be approached within the framework of bourgeois politics, because they all serve ruling class interests. This is what is really being protected, when people opt to support Democrats just because they seem less blatantly cruel on TV.

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» Don't Support Them... Posted by: pdxjoe
» RE: FDR was not an illusion Posted by: bessie

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No contest
Posted by: Democritus on Oct 8, 2008 5:24 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
McCain talked about doing all these things that needed doing at the same time, while walking around seemingly gasping for air. I said to myself, "How can he do all these things when he might not be able to make it off the platform?"

At the other podium there was Barack Obama: cool-hand Luke.

Obama's strategy was not to get himself painted into a left-wing corner, and he succeeded. McCain wanted to battle the guy who was associated with Bill Ayers, but he didn't show up. Instead, the guy who showed up also showed that he was young, energetic, and quick-minded; whereas, the other guy was old, used-up, and out of ideas.

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McCain's discussion was interesting
Posted by: ReallyBearish on Oct 8, 2008 5:26 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It sounded to me like he was cobbling various talking points together like a poor cut and paste job. Granted, both sides used talking points and avoided debating much of the time, but McCain seemed to be a stream of pieces not quite fitting together. His base may be moved mostly by how he looked, but he better hope that they weren't really LISTENING.

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That one
Posted by: PaulK on Oct 8, 2008 5:27 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Klingon greeting: "What is this?", as in, "Get this garbage off my bridge!" The newcomer is pointedly not recognized.

Apparently Senator McCain's campaign is going to stick with a "That one" theme.

Perhaps Sen. McCain wants to first extract major concessions before he'll negotiate face to face with Sen. Obama.

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» RE: That one Posted by: Michel
» RE: That one Posted by: kungfuma
» RE: That one Posted by: Michel

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Da American PEOPLE
Posted by: Dee1276 on Oct 8, 2008 5:48 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"We deserve better" one commenter states? I fear the American PEOPLE are going to get just what they deserve: a befuddled flag waving old con artist . McCain's trainers know just who they are talking to when they go along with the "my friends" chant, the smarmy "America is the greatest..." the goodest cliches. WE, Americans, can do anything? Well, what have we done to help the survivors of Katrina?

There are too many Americans who are comfortable with crap. Obama's dignity and intelligence offends them. McCain can get away with inaccuracies, lies and defamatory innuendos because he speaks to the critical mass of our population who are ignorant and fearful. They are crazy for Palin. Snide and Smirky beat out informed and intelligent any day, every day.

It's easier and more self serving to see ourselves as valiant, misunderstood victims of a jealous outside world than to confront our own mistakes and misdeeds, our own greed and stupidity.

American People who think for themselves; who read books; who actually mix with, talk to people from other countries, who demonstrate interest in or concern for anyone outside their little clot of like minded folks are marginalized.

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» RE: Da American PEOPLE Posted by: songbird1268

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Did anyone else ...
Posted by: Cybershaman on Oct 8, 2008 5:50 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...catch McCains offhand remark about 'some of the $700 billion going into the hands of terrorists'? I had to back up and check that one out again. It was completely out of context. It was like he had to throw that talking point out there sometime and just blurted it out. Fear mongering at it's best, even kinda subliminal.

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IF YOU HAVE ANY DOUBTS JUST GOOGLE KEATING ECONOMICS- MCAIN INSANE
Posted by: stopthemaddness2 on Oct 8, 2008 5:52 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just google Keating Economics. Spend the best 13 minutes since the $700 BILLION Bailout Payout! If you are undecided, that will cinch it for you guaranteed. McCain is wrong for the nation. He was winded, mid way through the debate. He was stealing every ideology that OBAMA presented. He borrowed from Regan, Hoover, Rosevelt, and Hillary and even OBAMA's himself. It was shameful and sad. He was hanging on to every railing, leaning on the back end of his chair for support and was visually worn out by the time the debate ended. We must have some one with foresight, diplomacy, leadership, and stamina to hit the ground running and McCain has no more steam. That was clear to everybody. He never had a platform to begin with, and the Platform became Palin.. and that she is unthinkable to be running the oval office should he succumb to more illness.

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STILL UNDECIDED? SPEND THE BEST 13 MINUTES SINCE THE NEWS OF THE $700 BILL BAILOUT- GOOGLE THIS
Posted by: stopthemaddness2 on Oct 8, 2008 6:04 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Still undecided? Well spend the best 13 minutes since the news hit that we were being forced to bailout Wall Street to the tune of $700BILLION. If this debate didn't cinch it for you, this short 13 minute video will, guaranteed. McCain was heavily embroiled in a major deregulation scandal and investigated by the Federal government, and his pal was indicted. ALL FACTS! Here's a question, why would you trust someone who did two things: Voted 90% of the time with George DUBUA? When our entire nation is in the toilet.
And second: Vietnam Vets do not like him, or his military voting record in the Senate. These two things alone should raise serious questions. McCain has been riding on his 50 year old war hero pants. Well, that ain't working today!

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Watch for the little things -- and for poor losers
Posted by: taxidriver on Oct 8, 2008 6:05 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In a "debate" this scripted, you have to watch and listen for little things--signs revealing of a candidate's character. McCain's reference to "that one," his condescending tone to another questioner (whose name he got wrong), his lame attempt at jokes (telling Tom Brokaw that he won't hire him as Treasury Secretary; huh?): all of these indicate a man who's ill at ease with himself as well as others.

But even more revealingly, perhaps: Just after the debate, John and Cindy hurried off the stage, whereas Barack and Michelle stayed behind for about 20 minutes, thanking the audience, signing autographs, etc.

It reminded me of winners and losers at a tennis match: winners often stay behind, sign autographs, etc., and (poor) losers often grab their rackets and stomp off the court, ignoring the fans that ultimately pay their checks.

McCain was the poor loser, stomping off the court and ignoring the audience, the taxpayers, who elect him and pay his salary.

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We Must Change!
Posted by: thinkverybig on Oct 8, 2008 6:08 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's obvious who won the debate and Obama will be our next President. In the meantime, I need your help.

Go to youtube and do a search for "thinkverybig" and watch all of those videos. The one called "We Must Change" would be fitting to recite at Obama's Inauguration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM58nqX1ehE

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DENIED!!! DENIED!!! DENIED!!!
Posted by: DrSuess on Oct 8, 2008 6:14 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
McWorse wants to put “HEALTH HISTORIES ONLINE”!!! Do you know what that means for me? I have had cancer- and so if I want to buy a new home- the bank looks up my health care history and Bam
DENIED!!!
Credit card
DENIED!!!
Any loan of any kind
DENIED!!!
Car Insurance
10 times as much as anyone else
(if you doubt me- why does my credit score have anything to do with the cost of my car insurance? Or my house insurance? But it does. )
What about a Job
DENIED!!!
Now potential employers know my health history- and can screen prospective employees on health. That makes me unemployable. I cannot believe the stupidity of this statement. If it comes to pass it is catastrophe for me

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» RE: DENIED!!! DENIED!!! DENIED!!! Posted by: songbird1268

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watch Nader's Response to the Debates
Posted by: suckerbeagle on Oct 8, 2008 6:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
www.votenader.org
After watching the live stream of Ralph Nader it became all the more clear to me that we heard nothing good in this debate. McCain was predictably horrifying and Obama continues his saber-rattling war talk.Neither is for single payer health care. Neither condemned the bailout. Both referred to it at a 'rescue plan'. Watch Ralph tell it like it is.http://www.votenader.org/live/

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» Anybody notice? Posted by: WhuThe?!?

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"That one"
Posted by: americansheep on Oct 8, 2008 6:23 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama came off so hawkish that when he goes to the White House he may opt to live in a tree on the south lawn and eat field mice. Where are his advisors, and the internet monitors who work with his campaign? His rebuttal about not saying he would invade Pakistan, but he would go in if Paskistan could not or would not. That is invading Pakistan! Why is he repeating this unpopular strategy? When he is elected, we must trim his war talons. He is in the right place at a momentous time to do great deeds,but unless he breaks free from his war hawk mentality,with the attached imperialist storm trooping, he will squander his legacy to be one of mediocrity. Once he is voted in, what is the strategy of "we the people" to hold him to his anti-war promises of yesterday's primary race?

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Obama missed a Fabulous Opportunity- "Afghan Freedom fighters"
Posted by: Purple Girl on Oct 8, 2008 6:30 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And who might that have been who was given aid and comfort by groups like Mac's anti communist party....Why Osama Bin Laden and AQ!!! furnished them with even Boot and a 'Glory Story' to increase Recruitment.
Of course that Devastation this 'Friends' caused on 9/11 to the financial market pales in comparison to what Phil Gramm et al have Done to Our entire Economic Security and future! Talk about a Domestic Terrorist, just look over Mac's right Shoulder!
As For Sarah and Her Separatist Husband, Their 'Independent AK' leader sound like he hold the same Hatred of America as Timothy McVey and his Terrorist group who blew up not only the Fed Building in OK, but killed the Workers and the CHILDREN at Daycare on the Bottom floor!
Her 'Anti Abortion' Fanatism is akin to those who Blew up Planned Parenthood Clinics, Murdered Repro Docs and ignited a Pipebomb at the Atlanta olympics!
Her Church's fantasies of being the Refuge following Armegeddon are EXACTLY Like Charlie Mansons Death Valley 'Refuge'!he too was attempting to spark 'End Of Days' and was a fervant believer in 'Revelations'.funny 40 yrs later and Charlie has been proven Wrong about Gods timing for Judgement Day. Sarah Facilitating or demanding 'End of Days' is above your Pay scale, and Your sociopathic/heretical church's too!
So attempt to build that Bridge to Nowhere from an 8 yr old to a '60's radical. We have already completed our Bridge leading from Mac to his affilaition with Domestic (economic) & International Terrorists.And we have nearly completed the one leading from YOU to the Likes of Timothy McVey and Charlie Manson!

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Obvious
Posted by: RedFoxOne on Oct 8, 2008 6:51 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I thought it was pretty obvious that Obama kicked McBush to the Curb. AGAIN

Jiff
Privacy Center

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» RE: Speak for yourself... Posted by: jimidee

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Comment
Posted by: Willy on Oct 8, 2008 7:06 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Something that, as far as I know, has never been mentioned is what contributed to the fall of the Spanish, Dutch and British empires, and that is the change from a manufacturing economy to a financial economy; that is the reliance on the manipulation of monetary instruments to make money instead of making things.

Unfortunately, this trait seems to be irreversible.

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» RE: Comment Posted by: BCcovers
» What pap! LOL Posted by: Prophit
» Making money at the Casino? Posted by: Cathyc

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This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.

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Pay It Forward!
Posted by: thinkverybig on Oct 8, 2008 7:07 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your help is needed. If you're ready for change, please share this video with all of your family and friends.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM58nqX1ehE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN_pGy_1bEg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD0iAQN7VPY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpfHz_WeXHw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH9BtZwTyHo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWVGsuNecYg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UssvnQMn-EM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdfvQmh3b90

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03Enn5yiY-0



Go to youtube and do a search for "thinkverybig" and watch all of those videos. The one called "We Must Change" would be fitting to recite at Obama's Inauguration.

Here's a community organizer that's reached out to over 20,000 youth and has a goal of touching a million by teaching them the game of life using the game of chess. Click below to watch video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLFENGymr34

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"gold-plated Cadillac?"
Posted by: OceanDog on Oct 8, 2008 7:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ruh roh... Johnny, what kind of car do you drive??? A 2004 Cadillac CTS...

Johnny's trying to call out health insurance policies as "gold-plated Cadillacs" and he drives one. What an idiot.

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Let's not forget the NeoCon problem
Posted by: thistleblower on Oct 8, 2008 7:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not much attention has been placed on these guys lately. You know this is part of the plan somehow. What is their next move?

They have a global ideological agenda and have found a way to sucker the american workforce into financing their urge for armageddon. Obama may have his drawbacks, but it will remove the most important link in the neocon network's chain- the executive branch of our government.

Which is why I think Rove will engineer something to keep the train a chooglin'. I think the october surprise might be Dubya's old drinking buddy, Bin Laden, hanging out in the green room waiting for his cue. Yes, the ultimate symbol of the efficacy of the lunacy that is the global war on terror is Bin Laden's capture.

I'm not sure what sort of deal they will work out.. I mean, the expected reaction is to execute him, but he is a buddy. Possibly a "business" partner in this whole thing. Can Bush stoop so low that he would call Bin laden out of hiding only to off him? Or will Bin laden receive a permanent room in Gitmo, to be forgotten by us and perhaps re-released into the wild? It remains to be seen.

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McCain's DIRTY LITTLE SECRET in Arizona
Posted by: X-POLYGAMIST WIFE on Oct 8, 2008 7:37 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For 26 years John McCain did NOTHING to stop the worst Human Rights violations in America because all 10,000 victims and their abusers vote Republican.

This video will BLOW YOUR MIND.

http://www.bankingonheaven.com/

BANKING ON HEAVEN . COM

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Questions that are never asked
Posted by: JohnJlws on Oct 8, 2008 7:48 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Arianna pointed to questions I keep hoping someone will ask. "The Maverick" always intones the following:

On war
"I know how to win. I've done that. I can do it again and our troops will come home heroes and victorious."

Okay, here's my simple question, when has he done that?

On economy
"I know how to fix it. I've done that. I've been doing it all my life."

Okay, here's the simple question, when has he done that? Great he's against earmarks. How do we reduce the other 9 trillion 9 hundred and 82 billion dollars of the national debt?

On bin Laden
"I know how to catch him. I've done that."

Okay, here's the simple question, why did you let him go?

Arianna asks "McCain also told us he knows how to fix the economy, knows how to win wars and knows how to capture bin Laden. Is there a reason he's keeping all these a secret?"

These are great questions. Here's another one: "Republicans always talk about 'redistribution of wealth' when they talk about Obama's or anyone else's tax plans that might raise Bill Gates' taxes, but why is moving billions of dollars from the poor and middle class to Halliburton and other executives through war and bailouts (it not 'rescue,' John) not 'redistribution of wealth?"

Or, "Why is Obama less American than you?"

Or, "When is it appropriate to allow followers to scream 'terrorist,' or 'kill him' when referring to your opponents?"

I was disappointed with Brokaw's moderation. He was consumed with "staying on time." Here's one for Tom: "We're electing a President; who gives a shit if they run over 12 seconds?" I wasn't, however, disappointed with the results as once again Obama demonstrated his superiority and embarrassed "the maverick."

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» RE: Questions that are never asked Posted by: stopthemaddness2

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jacks12
Posted by: jacks12 on Oct 8, 2008 7:51 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just checked the latest Zogby poll and Barack is still just 3 points ahead. How can this be when every on-line poll last night had Obama winning 80-90 PERCENT of the respondent's votes.
Racism is alive and well in America. Every undecided focus group favored Obama but when asked who THEY were voting for, the CNN group said McCain by like a 13-11 score. UNBELIEVABLE! Anybody who thought McCain won is either Republican, stupid or racist. Barack was a class act in every respect, while McCain was a snarky and hateful, maybe racist, old man. The fact he avoided shaking Obama's hand after the debate said volumes about JM's character and class. Why ANY undecided votes for this jerk is beyond me.

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» RE: jacks12 Posted by: BCcovers
» RE: jacks12 Posted by: 6399

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joels@nccray.net
Posted by: joels on Oct 8, 2008 7:56 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While I have problems with some of the statements of both candidates, McCain obviously won the "debate". Obama did so much stuttering and stammering that, at times, I actually felt sorry for him.

McCain is trying to make the last month about Obama's character; and he should. Obama's character is very questionable. McCain's character is UNimpeachable!

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» Thanks for the chuckle Posted by: JohnJlws

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d julien
Posted by: D. Julian Terry on Oct 8, 2008 8:28 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As someone else mentioned, I am annoyed at commentators who, when analyzing the debate, say things like,"McCain has the edge when it comes to foreign policy and national security".
In my view, Obama has the edge. Just look at the candidtes' predictions of the Iraq war. And perhaps more importantly, the rest of the world(friends and foes alike) want to deal with Obama, not McBush. If we are going to begin to solve the problems that affect us all, we need someone who is respected and whom the world is willing to talk to and work with. It is no wonder that a German poll was 90% for Obama.The world is looking for a US leader who will reach out, not lash out. We and the world need Obama.

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jacks12
Posted by: jacks12 on Oct 8, 2008 8:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How was this studio audience chosen? I don't want to be mean, but some of these people were stupid! Many were so incoherent I didn't understand the question. Maybe an IQ test beforehand would solve this.
The candidates need more follow-up time. If we're to know where they stand, they need the time to explain themselves fully. I know they want as many questions as possible, but we need as clear an answer as possible. This will help voters make an informed decision.

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» Gallup picked the audience Posted by: socialpsych
» An audience of Imbeciles Posted by: Cathyc

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A contest of hollow slogans - "Change we can believe in" + "The Maverick" = BARF!
Posted by: 6399 on Oct 8, 2008 8:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First, let me congratulate both candidates on successfully skirting all major issues with extreme adroitness. There was plenty of filler with the added bonus of trite platitudes that eventually gave way to hollow rhetoric - on both sides. It was often hard to tell when the candidates were deviating from the well-scripted and splendidly rehearsed talking points or just being, ahem, spontaneous.

That McPalin is a hideous parasite that should and will be squashed under America's collective electoral boot goes without saying, but the number of people here, and across wider America, who still cling mindlessly to Obama's empty promises of "Change" and "Hope" . . . well, that's what troubles me most.

The Obama zombie brigade seems to give credence to the notion that the left is nearly as brainwashed as the right. An increasing number of Alterneters may be holding their noses and pulling the lever for Obama, but America's legions of hardcore ObamaManiacs are convinced he's some sort of celestial being sent to earth to redeem mankind. It's actually quite frightening. Who says blind devotion is for the Neocons?

I don't harbor any higher aspirations for McPalin followers; they're a lost cause - irredeemable. But the American left's insistence that there are only two - check that - one viable choice in this election speaks volumes about us as a woefully ignorant and uniformly uninformed, easily-programmable collection of fools.

Let's face facts - we don't have a candidate problem, we have a constituency problem. The leaders we put forward are a mere reflection of the American populous at large: willfully ignorant, apathetic, self-absorbed, arrogant and exhibiting extremely poor judgment.

Why should be expect more from our candidates when they long since realized that the American people are fucking twits who don't know any better. And what's more, they'll sit down and passively take anything thrown at them--so long as it 's served with a generous side helping of Gossip Girl or America's Next Top Model.

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» Good point Posted by: 6399
» Not what I said: Posted by: WhuThe?!?

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Character analysis
Posted by: BaruchZ on Oct 8, 2008 9:02 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Watching the debate I saw a number of things:

1. McCain is physically very rigid. He can barely move his head. I know he has a terrible set of injuries to his arms from his time as a POW but beyond that he holds himself very rigidly. I have been a body oriented psychotherapist for over 25 years. McCain's body language suggests a rigid character and a lack of connection with his emotions.

Obama moves with confidence, he is not rigid, and his body language suggests someone who is grounded, who is connected with his emotions as well as with his thoughts.

2. McCain has obviously had botox treatment on his face. Botox paralyzes the small muscles of the face, creating a rigid mask. Human beings, as we age, change. Our faces change to reflect what has happened to us, our experiences, and our character. Botox creates essentially a mask which hides the true face of the person. What would McCain look like without Botox? What would his face show about his character if it weren't chemically altered by Botox? What is he hiding?

Obama’s face is expressive. He shows who he is with his face, he is not wearing a mask.

3. McCain used a lot of platitudes and attacks, but rarely said anything specific. His responses to the questions lacked substance. He focused on broad ideological responses, but didn't answer the questions.

Obama also didn’t answer the questions directly. He did describe a coordinated set of responses to curent situations, and made connections between the economy, education, and security, and he was less vague than McCain.

I came away from the debate thinking...McCain is an old man who, naturally, cannot see a future because his life is coming to an end. He is not forward thinking because his natural life span is about to end. Obama is younger, and has a future in front of him. He is in the middle of his life span, so he naturally envisions a future.

I would rather have an emotionally connected forward thinking president than a sick old president.

“Flexibility is kin of life. Rigidity is kin of death.” -Lao Tzu

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» RE: Character analysis Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: Character analysis Posted by: BaruchZ
» RE: Character analysis Posted by: aonghus36

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Diplomacy and Iran
Posted by: fanny666 on Oct 8, 2008 9:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wish Obama had nailed home the consequences of Bush's failure to negotiate with Iran a little bit more than he did.

The Iranian president before the current Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was Mohammad Khatami, who by any measure was much much more moderate and peace-seeking than Ahmadinejad is. In fact, one of Khatami's main issues was what he called the Dialogue Among Civilizations, a direct plea for negotiations and talks. He actually sent a Swedish diplomat to the US, to invite your government to participate in direct, unconditional talks with no issues "off the table".

Bush's response was to publicly chastise the Swedish diplomat for stepping out of bounds, and to not even reply to Iran's gesture. That was pretty humiliating for Khatami. In the next election, predictably, the Iranian right-wing ran on a platform of "Khatami is naive to want to talk to the Americans" and they beat him badly. So now Ahmadinejad is the president. And ironically, the right-wing in the US is now running on "Obama is naive to want to talk to the Iranians" and they bring up Ahmadinejad's rhetoric... a person that Bush helped enormously.

(ps, you can read Iranian Newspapers in English)

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how come my comment calling Obama a warmonger removed?
Posted by: PakiBoy on Oct 8, 2008 9:14 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'll say it again:

uncle tom obama needs to be educated that one cannot go to war against a nuclear armed country.

Obama is trying to outflank McCain by trying to come across as more hawkish. He comes across as a total moron on foreign policy.

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» I didn't read your comment.... Posted by: Illiteratilumen

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A beautiful BS session -----
Posted by: symcokid on Oct 8, 2008 9:49 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ends in a tie, they're both losers and it's so very sad. It's too bad Ron Paul would never be considered, but we know that could never happen because he is too honest.

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What a waste of bandwidth this all is. Just like the debates...
Posted by: Prophit on Oct 8, 2008 9:55 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... the real issues aren't even being discussed on here, no wonder our politicians don't talk about them either. None of us wants to know. Well, then we go down and we go down hard. I feel sorry for those who are not watching, and seeing. They will be the first harmed and possible seriously harmed.

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McCain's palpable contempt for Obama
Posted by: Bill Harrington on Oct 8, 2008 9:56 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you, Senator McCain, for evidencing your contempt for Senator Obama last night. It was palpable. If you cannot even engage in a civil and respectful dialogue with a fellow member of the United States Senate, how can any American reasonably expect that you will engage in civil and pragmatic dialogue with other world leaders? The last thing that America needs is another immature, emotional Chief Executive (read: BUSH) who refuses to interract responsibly with the other nations of the world (remember: Axis of Evil). Name calling is not diplomacy, and it is not leadership. McCain is a loose cannon. We saw a glimpse of his anger last night. No thanks.

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America lost a long time ago.
Posted by: tuelster on Oct 8, 2008 10:13 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I watched the debate from Norway (a NATO ally in Scandinavia, Europe, in case you don´t know!?), and what I was left with after the socalled ´international policy´round between Obama and McCain last night was "We have to teach them", "they have to understand", and especially "if they don´t, we have to force them..." "They" and "them" of course being ALL the peoples in all the other countries in the world who don´t understand "us", that is you!!! What we, the non-Americans see, is a huge military machine with bases all over the world mainly based on protecting "your" oil. Before you vote, I recommend Michael T. Klare´s book "Blood and Oil: The Dangers and Consequences of America´s Growing Dependency on Imported Petroleum". That´s all the explanation one needs to understand that the official talk about peace, democrazy and freedom is nothing but a coverup for raw power, with you, the American people as hostages in your emperor´s hands.

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Look, my friends
Posted by: websmith on Oct 8, 2008 10:23 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Both of these guys are offering major tax cuts. Tax cuts cost money and neither one of them has said how they're going to pay for them. Obama's tax increases on people making over $250K per year is not going to do it. This will lead to more borrowing and an increase in the national debt that will soon be $11 trillion, which will lead to inflation, which means we will all pay for the tax cuts. It doesn't matter if the tax cuts are for business or Citizens. We will pay.

This is business as usual at a time when our economy is collapsing. "Look", "my friends", this is total madness.

It's past time to stop doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results each time.

http://ewebsmith.com/self/StandUp.html

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» RE: Look, my friends Posted by: babs

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I'm pleased to see so many comments bashing Obama
Posted by: Illiteratilumen on Oct 8, 2008 10:25 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems that more people, at least those commenting on this site, are beginning to realize that the Democrats are no better than the Republicans.

McCain/Palin would be a disaster, no doubt about it. How much better would Obama be? He just voted yes for the bailout bill. He voted yes for FISA. He's got millions of people brainwashed into believing that he is The Answer when his voting record clearly states otherwise.

The first pieces of shit have hit the fan. I hope it really starts to fly soon.

Keep waking up people!

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BROKAW SHOWED HIS TRUE COLORS IN THE DEBATE... OBAMA STILL WON HANDS DOWN & HE KNEW IT
Posted by: stopthemaddness2 on Oct 8, 2008 10:31 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THIS POST IS FOR Johnlws:
Your post made my day, it made me laugh with agreement, and glee. What has McCain done in his 26 years in the Senate? Nothing! What will he do as president? Nothing! He embroiled himself in one of the biggest Deregulation scandals similar to our 700BIL Bailout, handout. And the results are in. We lost, they won. He didn't fix it, he helped to break it. Keating scandal was all about DEREGULATION! And His close TIES to Charles Keating who was convicted of wrong doing.

He has voted 90% of the time with George Dubua. What does that tell you? And where are we now? In the biggest economic turmoil and disaster filtering down to every segment of AMERICAN life domestic and now foreign, Hell, its gone GLOBAL!!!

His voting record and our military... he fixed that all right. The Vietnam Veterans, many of them, find him deplorable, his military record stinks and is questionable in terms of secrets he may have given and his voting record in the SENATE is not TROOP friendly. Military- Pentegon friendly, but not Troop friendly, and there is a BIG DIFFERENCE!!! He voted NO on safety improvements for the Troops. He voted No on an amended bill that would give a delay for deployment allowing Troops to get a rest between deployments, HE VOTED NO, Can you believe that? He voted NO on Corporate loop holes to fund 1.2 Bill for better Veteran Health care This man (THAT ONE) doesn't care ABOUT YOU, ME OR JOE SIX PACK TAX PAYER. And the Vietnam Veterans aren't forgetting this...
If you make $500,000, you might be on his page. If not, well, you are not on his page.

Obama talks about Bin Laden, McCain has only mentioned it when in debate. The BUSH Administration, has not mentioned his name in a great while, months and months and months now. Why is that?

McCain, now 72 years old, thought he could easily ride straight into the white house by the seat of his 50 YEAR OLD POW HERO PANTS! Not NOW, Not Today. There was a time in our history when that would have worked, A POW Hero, but not now, not today, no way McCain. And his Hero is questionable! Not NOW POW!

He was visibly WORN out last night midway through the debate, he became very winded. That is NOT PRESIDENTIAL, especially what this nation is facing... He was holding on the back of his chair a lot, and leaning on the railings. He was barely making it across the room. JUST OLD, TOO OLD and SICKLY!!! He stole the ideology of Roosevelt, Hoover, Regan, Hillary and OBAMA. He didn't have his own. Never did. Never does. Never will be able to hold his own.

The Economy, he will fix it. I think not ever. He is part of the problem. Period. KEATING, just google that and watch the 13 minute video and it talks about that scandal... he was heavily embroiled in with his pal who was indicted. The man is wrong.

BROKAW, SHOWED HIS TRUE COLORS. An obvious McCain supporter and it showed! He was miffed that OBAMA did so well and McCain didn't, which compelled him to be suddenly obsessed with the TIME!!!! GIVE ME A BREAK!!!! We all saw through that glass sealing!

OBAMA wiped the floor with him, again and again. I enjoyed it and my popcorn.

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This "debate" was meaningless without 3rd/Independent Party candidates.
Posted by: maxpayne on Oct 8, 2008 11:18 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And yeah, both Mccain and Obama sucked as their voting records are already showing ! To hell with both parties !

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» RE: I ditto that wholeheartedly, Maxpayne Posted by: impeachbushandcheneynow

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VOTE FOR "THAT ONE"!
Posted by: Johnny Chingas on Oct 8, 2008 1:24 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
McCain showed he has no class. When I saw him refer to Obama as "that one" it even offended ME. People have been saying "bring on the t-shirts".

Well, I'm happy to oblige.
voteforthatoneshirts.com

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TCM aired "The Graduate" last night
Posted by: audreyvest on Oct 8, 2008 1:40 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
during the debates. Remember the line from the Simon and Garfunkle song about listening to the candidates debate? It went something like this: "Laugh about it, shout about it when it's time to choose, anyway you look at it you lose." A perfect comment on this debate in my mind.

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Todd Palin is a FILF
Posted by: HoboHomo on Oct 8, 2008 2:04 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
:b

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Send a Message in NOV.
Posted by: mtatasmith on Oct 8, 2008 2:18 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Only vote for the presidential candidates and screw the rest .... what goes around comes around..or..do unto others what they have just done to you....I feel sick saying this!!!

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<