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Election 2008

Biden vs. Palin -- Who Won? 6 Short Takes on the VP Debate

AlterNet. Posted October 3, 2008.


AlterNet's Heather Gehlert, Don Hazen and Joshua Holland on the debate along with Markos Moulitsas Zuniga, Chris Bowers and Christy Hardin Smith.
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Heather Gehlert:

Early on in Thursday's debate, moderator Gwen Ifill asked vice presidential candidates Joe Biden and Sarah Palin a question about bipartisanship: "Would you work to shrink this gap of polarization which has sprung up in Washington?" In response, Joe Biden painted McCain as a flip-flopper, and Sarah Palin attacked Obama. To which Ifill replied, "Neither of you really answered that."

Gotcha.

Or did she? Many politicians have mastered the art of dodging questions. What struck me about this debate was that Sarah Palin has mastered the art of something else: making you forget the question.

A lot of Democrats wanted her to do badly tonight. And based on Palin's recent interview blunders, including her now widely circulated walk-and-talk Q&A with Katie Couric, a lot of reporters predicted she would. Now every one of them is eating their words.

I wish I had listened to the debate on the radio instead of watching it on TV because I would probably be writing a very different commentary right now. That's because neither candidate had any major gaffes. There were no memorably embarrassing statements. In fact, we didn't even learn very much tonight about Joe Biden and Sarah Palin because they both spent so much time attacking their opponent's running mate. When the candidates were on point, we either got information we already knew (the Bush administration has run this country into the ground; Obama and Biden want a timeline for withdrawal from Iraq, while McCain and Palin don't), or we learned about Biden and Palin's similarities: Both fancy themselves on the side of middle-class Americans, both oppose redefining marriage; both have sons in or on their way to war; both were hard-pressed to say what they would give up in light of the $700 billion bailout.

This debate wasn't lost or won based on anything verbal. It was won on nonverbal communication. And the winner was Sarah Palin.

The first thing Palin did upon entering the stage was blow a kiss to the audience, then greet Biden, saying, "Nice to meetcha. Hey, can I call ya Joe?" She was colloquial. She was charming. She took control, and except for a brief moment when a teary-eyed Biden recalled his wife's death and the experience of being a single parent, she never lost it. When Biden sighed, Palin smiled. He jutted his jaw forward in frustration; she smirked. He furrowed his brow; she winked.

And when Palin did speak, even if you disagreed with her words, based on the way she talked, you could feel that she meant them.

To be fair, Biden did a commendable job. He deserves credit for criticizing McCain's health care plan, which would leave the average family $7,000 short each year from being able to purchase coverage on the open market. He deserves credit for pointing out, in response to a question on climate change, that America has just 3 percent of the world's oil reserves but consumes a quarter of the world's oil. He deserves credit for correcting the record numerous times with regard to Iraq and questioning why we're pouring millions of taxpayer dollars each month into a country that's sitting on a huge budget surplus.

Of course, if debates were won on smarts alone, John Kerry would be our sitting president.

Trust and credibility are two crucial, and often overlooked, components of a debate. That happens when you show your audience you understand them and leave them feeling good and confident in your ability to solve their problems. That's arguably easier for candidates to achieve through behavior and body language than word choice. One UCLA study estimates that up to 93 percent of communication's effectiveness is determined through nonverbal cues. Others place the number closer to 95 percent. If that holds true, it's hard to overstate the importance of Sarah Palin looking into the camera and at the audience, instead of looking away or at Ifill, as Biden did.

In a way, people buy politicians the same way they buy brands. Do you purchase Crest or Colgate or Tom's of Maine because you know exactly which ingredients (zinc citrate trihydrate, hydrated silica) do what (fight tartar, whiten enamel)? Or do you pluck the tube from the shelf because you trust it will do the job? Granted, toothpaste can't wink, but actors in their advertisements can.

So before you put too much stock in pundits' post-debate analyses, which usually include the dissecting and fact-checking of words, think for a minute about the times you've gained someone's trust. Was it because of something you said? Or because of how you said it?

Don Hazen

I watched the debate at the posh Greenwich Hotel in Tribeca, N.Y., in a room filled with progressives and strong Obama supporters. Many attending essentially agreed with the conventional wisdom and the pundits: While Biden won because of superior knowledge and communication skills, Palin did better than many expected. Thus Biden didn't come away with as clear a victory as he might have, had she stumbled. But Biden was the victor nevertheless. Veteran political writer and pundit Joe Conason explained: "Biden did away with the elitist myth, talking about his roots in Scranton. And he actually knew something. She knew nothing. Independent voters actually want people to have some knowledge."

But there was a separate, contrary undercurrent in the room and in follow-up interviews. It was a disquiet, which I shared with half a dozen people I spoke with. Call us the working class sympathizers. Maybe because of our roots, or work as artists, we are more tuned in to the reality where form can often take precedence over substance.


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View:
Palin did just what was predicted
Posted by: HF1304 on Oct 3, 2008 12:20 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those who debated Palin before tonight, noted that she would try to appeal to the audience and would avoid answering questions. She did exactly that, and did it well. The Dems knew it was coming, and walked right into the trap. Clearly, Biden knew what he was talking about and had the facts on his side. But,he looked very angry and frustrated. I mean, really, repeating facts over and over again while "Suzy Homemaker" smirked was just too much to bear. Worse, when Biden was about to blow a gasket, Palin lightened the mood causing him to laugh. Thus, making her more palatable in the eyes of the American public - especially those who are undecided.

Uggghhh... Let's hope Obama does better in his second debate and doesn't hold any punches.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» I hate to say I told you so but ... Posted by: salt-of-the-earth
» Salt of the earth. . . Posted by: Prairie Waif
» I told you...? Posted by: zipper696
» RE: Beck Supports Anti-Choice Democrats Posted by: left_libertarian
» Palin ran for queen Posted by: PaulK
Who Won ? The Two Parties of the Duopoly ...
Posted by: mmckinl on Oct 3, 2008 12:24 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who won ? Where you stand depends on where you sit.

For her audience I thought Palin won. She was repetitive, especially on energy, but she drove home her message while touting and defending McCain. Her attacks were simplistic and mostly subterfuge but very effective. I can remember all of Palin's talking points, very few of Bidens'.
Biden was credible and straight forward but no match for the innuendo Palin was dishing.

Jaded description ? Yep, but we are talking about the American Public ... I'm sure the MSM will have spun this to Bidens' advantage by tomorrow.

Me ? I'm voting Green ...

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Voting Green? Really? Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Voting Green? Really? Posted by: Duncable
» former Nader voter Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: former Nader voter Posted by: cellorelio
» RE: former Nader voter Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: former Nader voter Posted by: amerimet
» RE: Voting Green? Really? Posted by: lenioui
» RE: Voting Green? Really? Posted by: Alohajnc
» RE: Voting Green? Really? Posted by: lenioui
» Here's a better tactic. Posted by: bornxeyed
» God, Damn! Posted by: bornxeyed
Am I the only one a bit depressed...
Posted by: wwittman on Oct 3, 2008 1:13 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
that Biden COULDN'T put her away?

I mean, after all the talk about low expectations and after how awful she came off with Katie Couric (who, face it, isn't exactly the toughest journalist out there, is she?), it's disappointing that there WAS no defining moment.
No memorable point where it all turned and you could say THERE is where it becomes clear who is a statesman and who is Tina Fey without humour.
No point where even the right wing would have to say "after THIS she's got to go."

Don't you think he SHOULD have been able to murder her?
Didn't we all think he could?
Should? if not would?

Even nutty right-wing talk radio spent the last few days excoriating Ifil, because, I think, they were laying the groundwork to EXPLAIN why Palin fell apart.

As much as I'd love to say it 'doesn't matter' or that Biden 'won', the result was way too close for comfort.

It SHOULD have been a rout.

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» RE: Am I the only one a bit depressed... Posted by: helenahanbasquet
» RE: oh, I think I do. Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Am I the only one a bit depressed... Posted by: beautifulady2003
» RE: Moose and Cow Party Posted by: truman
» RE: Moose and Cow Party Posted by: truman
Debate?
Posted by: The Old Hippie on Oct 3, 2008 1:41 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
 
It Doesn’t Matter What Anyone Says - Except FOX - It’s Reality.
by The Old Hippie Because You Still Don’t Get It, the Senate Passed The ‘Bailout’.

What Fox’s ‘Forum’ is saying about the V.P. Debate.  Since it’s a fact that the majority of the American voters don’t read/watch/listen/believe any other media, except for maybe the occasional other corporatistly controlled ‘MSM,’ nothing that is said by any expert, commentator, or reality-based reporter really matters - Now does it?

One has to keep in mind - 1/2 of any population - has a below average I.Q. - The majority of that half, in America today, has been emotionally manipulated into voting their own self-destruction, to the benefit of the sneering sociopathic manipulators.  That’s not to say that a significant number in the other half of the Bell Curve haven’t fooled also.

What they, ‘the-very-few,’ (and their profiting sycophants,) have successfully gotten away with in the last eight years, without real protest, without in-the-streets revolt after all the exposure of the facts of their crimes, which simply all centered around the transfer of wealth, and the control of that transferred wealth’s power... is more than ample proof of the above stated single fact of our shared political reality today.

If you allow them their open sneering crimes without stopping them, without punishing them, without sustained revolt - You have already lost.  And that is our situation in America today.

To paraphrase... It’s the unfathomable and ongoing “Allowing,” stupid.

“Can’t Say We Weren’t Warned”

Oh, by the way - You did noticed they passed the ‘bailout’ in the Senate - Right?
 

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» RE: Debate? Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Debate? Posted by: lenioui
» RE: Debate? Posted by: blackie4aces
litebug
Posted by: litebug on Oct 3, 2008 1:50 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe Palin's phony folksiness appeals to some people but it is a complete and utter turn-off to me, as is her mugging for the camera (flirting and winking, no less!), her smirking inappropirate smiles and condescending attitude. She obviously has an exhalted opinion of herself despite the false front of being "just folks". She's a bimbo but a dangerously ambitious one with a record of nastiness and abuse of power. She's also a handmaiden to big oil and a habitual liar, prerequisites for a Rethuglican politican. She has some very bizarre religious beliefs and appears to have more allegiance to Alaska than to the USA. Her trailer trashy family is an embarrassment. I have such a low opinion of her that I've switched from Heath to Skor, since learning she is from the Heath candy family!

I am a woman who was definitely not a Hillary supporter but I think that Sarah Palin isn't fit to wash Hillary's underwear.

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» RE: litebug Posted by: jacobtoo
» RE: litebug Posted by: siouxgirl
» RE: litebug Posted by: Bibsisis
» RE: litebug Posted by: helenahanbasquet
» RE: litebug Posted by: Bibsisis
» RE: litebug Posted by: Lilly
» NOT A HANDJOB TO BIG OIL ? Posted by: zipper696
» RE: litebug Posted by: mpreb658@earthlink.net
It was Biden for dinner?
Posted by: Karl.Ben on Oct 3, 2008 2:54 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
""What struck me about this debate was that Sarah Palin has mastered the art of something else: making you forget the question."" - they forget the Kerry/ Bush or Bush /Gore debates.. rarely did anyone answer a question - it was so bad I think SNL did a piece on it.

"Sarah won" is a not exactly it.. She just didn't "lose" nor did she resemble Tina Fey and Biden didn't come out with one of his priceless gaffs!

Biden was actually likable last nite but I got the impression his heart isn't behind Obama.. Kind of like the relationship between JFK and LBJ - except Biden is a much better person than LBJ ever was!

The reality is Obama is in regardless of what happened tonite and that is frightening! This guy is nothing like what everyone expects!

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» Karl (Rove) Ben Posted by: zipper696
» RE: Karl (Rove) Ben Posted by: Karl.Ben
» RE: Karl (Rove) Ben Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Karl (Rove) Ben Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: It was Biden for dinner? Posted by: rchapin8391
» RE: It was Biden for dinner? Posted by: Karl.Ben
Palin WON!
Posted by: dodger on Oct 3, 2008 3:08 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Without a doubt Sarah Palin walked away proving that she would be a formidable first lady, a folk hero in comparison to the Jackie Kennedy east coast cultured act.

Oh wait. This was for vice president.

never mind.

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» RE: Palin WON! Posted by: Karl.Ben
» RE: Palin WON! Posted by: dodger
» More like President of the PTA Posted by: thistleblower
» RE: More like President of the PTA Posted by: surfreality
How come so many people are ignoring the realities...
Posted by: starmiler on Oct 3, 2008 3:20 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sarah Palin makes George W. Bush sound like William F. Buckley: The mangled syntax, the tortured handling of facts... If the American Public want folksiness instead of smarts or (god forbid) a progressive vision of our future, they should be voting for Andy Griffith -- oops, I'm sorry. I forget Fred Thompson didn't make it... Seriously, though, I thought her performance was absolutely awful. And it is equally appalling that nearly all of the punditry and post-debate commentary claims she did a respectable job. It's the Emperor's New Clothes all over again. (And I hate to say it, but would a neophyte man be held to the same low standard? I seriously doubt it. If Palin was male, he would have been eviscerated for such an inarticulate, evasive performance. I'll bet every penny I have that the next woman in such an important debate won't seem so dumb.)

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This was just the first step
Posted by: F-Abdolian on Oct 3, 2008 3:23 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe she lost the battle, but she is here to win the war.

she is going to be the star of GOP in the next election, loved by people for her look, her 'wisdom' and the one who comes back to show the world how badly the elected president handled the economy and the military and she and her bible friends will have an answer to everything.

And believe me it will not be 42!

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Biden wasn't all that bad surprisingly. Palin did not win over moderates or independents like myself
Posted by: maxpayne on Oct 3, 2008 3:30 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Half of the time, Paling would not even bother answering the questions presented to her especially on "deregulation". If an average Joe or Jane were to answer a typical job interview the way she did, he or she would get nowhere in life. She is a DISGRACE to women, good Christians, this country, and the planet. Joe Biden had his own too but he really wasn't all that bad. Although I shook my head when he talked about "clean" coal and "safe" nuclear, I did like it that he brought up the fact that he goes back and forth on the train. I also like it that he's not going to pull a Cheney and push for power grabbing and abusing. Only die-hard Republicans at best would have been gained with Paling. Paling did pull a gotcha on Biden's vote to authorize the war but he surprisingly defended it in a manner that neither Kerry nor Edwards would do. What I didn't like the most about the "debate" was that third party VPs were excluded. That would have forced both parties to come clean but sadly, it didn't.

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» Move over Kennedy and 9/11... Posted by: zipper696
Smile, Smirk and Lie your A-s Off: Sound Familiar?
Posted by: Ottomatic on Oct 3, 2008 3:57 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Truth and Accountability flew out the window When Palin walked in.
Some debate?
She never answered a question.
It's Palin's way or The Highway!
She make faces and read from a script.
That's Presidential?
Sound familiar?
Who is the real Palin?
What is she hiding behind all the BU__! SH__!
Did she just walk off the set of 6,000 B.C.?
She needs a Exorcism
She is possessed by
Evil and GREED!
She is Dick Cheney type Evil!
The Corpirates paint a Pretty Face on Death warmed over.
First a Chearleader and now Mrs. Beauty Queen, What's the difference?
She's Down Home,
My ASS!
She has yet to explain any difference between Bush's and McCain's policies.
McCain voted with BUSH 90% of the Time!
That's the facts, Jack!
Palin is a lying
Sack of Sh-t!

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well...
Posted by: Moira61 on Oct 3, 2008 3:57 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
she didn't trip or throw up on herself, so she did great! Kidding aside, Biden mopped the floor with her. Her refusing to answer questions, the non-stop repug talking points (she sounded like a robot) and the winking (gimme a break) didn't help her any. She came across as very scripted and silly. NOT what we need in a VP or, heaven forbid, a president. She did better than expected, but that's not saying much.

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By the way, Biden surprisingly did a great job bringing up the fact that single moms and single dads
Posted by: maxpayne on Oct 3, 2008 3:58 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
can be equally suffering in life. Sorry I forgot to mention that. Biden still owes some explanations but if I had to compare him to Palin and no one else, then yeah he pretty much secured the lead for Obama.

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return of the bimbette
Posted by: fiddledeedee2 on Oct 3, 2008 4:12 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The GOP are not saying anything in praise of the press now when everyone seems to be giving Sarah Palin a passmark for what was clearly a dud performance. Please let's not mealymouth our way into turning this woman into something she's not. The bimbette is a loser - whatever the press thinks about that nonperformance.

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Biden=Palin
Posted by: chlamor on Oct 3, 2008 4:41 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Joe "Foot-In-Mouth" Biden and Sarah "Abstinence-Only" Palin are perfect matches for the Twin Business Party campaigns for top executive power. Biden gruffly rejects the "liberal" label by reminding reporters he is from a former slave state. Palin appeals to "white America's reptilian brain." The schlock level at both camps gets thicker by the day. Barack Obama morphs politically into his 72-year-old opposite number, joining hands with John McCain as a new convert to the Iraq "surge" that has "succeeded beyond our wildest dreams."

Criticizing Sarah Palin, the Republican Vice Presidential nominee, is easier than shooting fish in a barrel.

Palin's shortcomings are many, but are actually no worse than those of Joseph Biden, Barack Obama's running mate. Biden seems to have all the right credentials to run for Vice President. He has been a United States senator for more than 30 years and is chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee. The political establishment and corporate media gave him unanimous approval, but a closer look reveals that Biden is no better than his Republican rival.

Biden is a committed hawk, with little use for democracy. He also hopes that the rest of us care about it as little as he does. In 2005 he fantasized about a nation that willingly paid for nothing except defense spending. "The Lord Almighty, or Allah, whoever, if he came to every kitchen table in America and said, 'Look, I have a Faustian bargain for you, you choose. I will guarantee to you that I will end all terror threats against the United States within the year, but in return for that there will be no help for education, no help for Social Security, no help for health care. What do you do?' My answer is that seventy-five per cent of the American people would buy that bargain."

Biden enthusiastically voted in favor of the resolution to authorize the occupation of Iraq. He advocated invading Iraq as early as 1998 and eagerly spread the lie that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. When asked if he regretted authorizing the use of force he told a blatant, bald faced lie "...everyone in the world thought he had them. The weapons inspectors said he had them."

Barack Obama is sounding more and more like McCain every day. He declared on Fox news that the "surge" in Iraq has " . . . succeeded beyond our wildest dreams." He and McCain both have awful running mates. The only difference is that one has been awful for a longer period of time. The bright spot for voters is that they don't have to spend any more time wondering if there will be change or not. The question has been answered. You may now spend your time pondering something else.

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» RE: Biden=Palin Posted by: spanky
» RE: Biden=Palin Posted by: lenioui
What debate were people
Posted by: marid on Oct 3, 2008 4:41 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
watching? Palin looked clueless, lost and like she wanted to run off the stage the last half hour where she did not say anything but spout talking points. Must be my brain condition that does not allow me to see her as even adequate. The condition is called conscious.

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» RE: What debate were people Posted by: Bibsisis
my mind was made up when...
Posted by: ellie on Oct 3, 2008 4:41 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Paulin did not understand the 'powers' of the vice president while being cutesy about it... Biden read her chapter and verse from the constitution...

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Biden the Drug Warrior
Posted by: chlamor on Oct 3, 2008 4:48 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
During his 35 years in Congress, political observers note that no Democrat has sponsored "more damaging drug war legislation" than Joe Biden. Biden led the charge in the Senate for passage of the 1986 Anti-Drug Abuse Act, which -- among its numerous notorious provisions -- re-established mandatory minimum sentencing for drug crimes, expanded the use of federal asset forfeiture laws, and established the racially biased 100-to-1 sentencing disparity for the possession of crack versus powder cocaine. (During the mid-'80s, it was hardly unusual for "liberals" such as Biden to endorse punitive drug policies, which at the time enjoyed virtually unanimous support from Congress.) Biden recently offered a mea culpa regarding his former support for the disproportionate sentencing provision, rationalizing, "Our intentions were good, but much of our information was bad."

Biden was also a key architect of the 1988 Anti-Drug Abuse Act, which enacted mandatory sentences for minor crack cocaine possession (five years in prison for possession of more than 5 grams), redefined low-level drug mules as drug "conspirators" (allowing these defendants to face the same penalties as drug kingpins), instituted random workplace drug testing programs for public employees, and established the multibillion-dollar anti-drug propaganda wing of the White House known as the Office of National Drug Control Policy (the federal agency responsible for creating the television ads that claimed that pot smoking sponsors international terrorism -- or at least makes you pregnant). The executive director of the ONDCP, dubbed by Biden as America's "drug czar," was eventually elevated in 1993 to that of a presidential Cabinet position -- arguably the only U.S. Cabinet position that, by law, is mandated to lie to the American public.

More than three decades in Congress have done little to quench Biden's drug war lust. In 2001, Delaware's senior senator grilled then drug czar appointee -- now acting drug czar lunatic -- John Walters for several hours over concerns that he might not be tough enough to spearhead America's drug war. Biden also sponsored federal anti-paraphernalia legislation forbidding the interstate sale of glass pipes, bongs and rolling papers. (In 2003, Hollywood actor and comedian Tommy Chong was sentenced to nine months in federal prison for violating the statute. Nevertheless, in an August interview on the "Dr. Drew" syndicated radio show, Chong admitted that he supports the Obama-Biden ticket -- a decision that, if nothing else, illustrates the view among many reformers that regardless of how bad the Dems might be on the drug issue, a McCain-Palin administration would undoubtedly be worse.)

More recently, Biden authored the so-called RAVE Act (aka the Illicit Drug Anti-Proliferation Act) -- clandestinely enacted into law in 2003 as a rider to federal "Amber Alert" legislation -- which permits federal law enforcement to prosecute business owners and event organizers who hold concerts where illicit drug use takes place. The congressman was also instrumental in the passage of the domestic COPS program, which sought to add some 100,000 new law enforcement officers to the state and federal payrolls, as well as expend funding for the Department of Justice, the FBI and the DEA.

Biden is also a staunch supporter of U.S. anti-drug efforts abroad, such as Plan Columbia and Plan Afghanistan, and has even espoused for the use of mycoherbicides such as Fusarium oxysporum -- a genetically engineered fungal plant killer -- in illicit crop eradication efforts. (Fortunately for the planet, more rational minds -- at the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency and the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration, of all places -- nixed the idea, deciding that the deliberate spread of such toxic pathogens would be unsafe for the environment.)

LINK

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» RE: Biden the Drug Warrior Posted by: polyrhythms
» RE: Biden the Drug Warrior - SUCKS! Posted by: left_libertarian
» RE: Biden the Drug Warrior Posted by: kungfuma
Fake Versus Fraud
Posted by: indyskywolf on Oct 3, 2008 5:02 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It really doesn't matter who won the VP debate; We the People lose.

Being a fan of neither Palin nor Biden, I was not impressed with either. Biden is a fraud. He's the spearhead for the War on Some Drugs and while he has backed off of that position a bit, I still can't trust he'll do the right thing and support the U.S. Constitution. Palin is 100% fake. She, like Hillary Clinton, tried to turn every question into a sales pitch, being more concerned about winning the office than doing something for the nation.

Neither one, in my opinion, is worth a damn. Obama could have done worse than picking Biden as a running mate; he could have chosen Evan Bayh or Hillary. But he certainly could have done better. McCain is too stupid and disingenuous to do anything right. He is a Republican, after all. Regardless of who wins, we will lose.

We're going to be stuck with one of the two. When are we going to learn to vote our hopes rather than our fears?

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» RE: Fake Versus Fraud Posted by: Sparks56
Scary Thought.
Posted by: Sparks56 on Oct 3, 2008 5:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not a word by any of the authors about Palin's comment about the role of the vice president.
She said she would work to get the Senate to do the president's bidding and then she said the power of the VP needed to be expanded. (Biden's retort about the very limited role of the veep was spot-on.)
It is apparent that this woman writes her own rules. Given that there is at least a 50-50 chance she could step up to the presidency if McCain wins the election, that is a scary thought.

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» RE: Scary Thought. Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Scary Thought. Posted by: Lilly
» RE: Totally Scary Thought. Posted by: beeden
» Breath of Air Posted by: Sparks56
» RE: Palin's On the Nose Posted by: beeden
» RE: Scary Thought. Posted by: Bibsisis
sgtmajor
Posted by: seazen on Oct 3, 2008 5:07 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Boy, I hope we haven't dropped our standards so low that we will even begin to give Sarah Palin credit for being a woman with nothing close to the intelligence or experience needed to be a VP who is proud of her ability to avoid answering questions. Joe Biden should have been insulted by her arrogance and her pettiness. I'll bet he was dying to walk across the stage and slap her.

We are facing extraordinary crises and to congratulate Palin for not making an overtly stupid statement while doing her best Britney Spears act while campaigning to occupy a slot that could make her President of the US is absurd.

We should call it like is and not act and talk like we are judging American Idol. She is a fool and an arrogant one at that.

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» RE: sgtmajor Posted by: Sparks56
» RE: sgtmajor Posted by: AnIndependentThinker
» RE: sgtmajor Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: sgtmajor Posted by: katee
BIDEN & PALIN DON'T GET IT
Posted by: cost of freedom on Oct 3, 2008 5:07 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Biden and Palin both don't get it, at least as far as I'm concerned. I don't want someone in the White House or second in command who hangs out at Home Depot or is a "hockey mom." To begin with, I am 60, single and childless. So this constant hammering away at family as an appeal to voters, doesn't gel with me or maybe some of the other 93 million single adults out there. Secondly, I don't want a leader who is just like me. I want them to be brighter & more knowledgeable. There was a reason why John and Jackie Kennedy uplifted the country, why their culture was called Camelot. Deep down inside, I think we all crave a king. That might be an unpopular sentiment in a democracy. But stretch your imagination for a moment. I don't mean king as a despot. I mean as someone with superior virtues: intelligence, kindness, keen judgement. Tolkien's idea of king, as one who has been tested and earned the "crown," merely a symbol of the peoples' love and respect. I want my president and vice-president to have PhDs in finance, mathematics, the arts and sciences; be amiable and kind; and models of health & well-being. That's a tall order. But we have, in our country, in fact elected men of superior character in the past: Washington, Lincoln, Kennedy are a few. The thought of Sarah Palin as president of this nation, turns my stomach. She is nothing but a has-been beauty queen being used by McCain as a cheap attention-grabber. She was obviously coached for last night's debate. You could almost see McCain in the background pulling the strings. The sheer fact that McCain would choose such an incompetent person, is evidence enough of his lack of leadership. Whom would he choose for his cabinet, if he picks Palin for v.p,? Many people I know are decrying the choices for president this year. I don't understand what is happening. Where are all the best and the brightest? Have they really become so jaded in Ivy League schools, that they only care about making money, and not bettering the country with their service? Clearly, we need a movement to uplift politics and make it appealing to persons out there of good character & virtue. Meanwhile, Obama is the only reasonable choice for president this year.

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» RE: BIDEN & PALIN DON'T GET IT Posted by: Bibsisis
What Biden should have said
Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Oct 3, 2008 5:10 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Palin was like a pinata, just waiting to be smashed. Yet Biden did not do so. Here is what a real candidate would have said to her:

"This administration has left us 5 trillion more in debt, while having the nerve to spout empty rhetoric about reducing the size of government!

Every trillion dollars of debt, divided amongst 100 million households, comes out to about $400 in interest. So for 5 trillion in debt, each household has to pay $2000 a year more in interest! That sounds like a tax to me! So how is it that you can sit there and claim that your party has lowered taxes? I hear it over and over and over. It is a lie. A big lie. Your party's polices have run up the cost of living for every American; it was a perfectly predictable result of borrow-and-spend ideology. It is debt-induced dollar devaluation. And it has caused enormous damage to the economy. The media may give you a pass on that, but I wont. So let's just call it what it is: another tax. Yet one more hidden tax on top of the added interest we all have to pay because of your party's policies. The party of 'lower taxes'. What a sad joke your party has played on this country.

The worst thing about interest on the debt is the fact that that tax money isnt going to bridges, roads, schools, healthcare, or alternative energy. It's just interest, most of which is paid to foreigners and the top 2% most wealthy of Americans. What this means is that in the aggregate, anyone who holds enough T-bills doesnt pay any net taxes. Because the taxes they pay is offset by the interest that they make off those T-bills. That is a big part of the reason why the rich have gotten richer while everyone else is losing ground.

The average American has seen his Real Wages decrease over the last 8 years. That's even before you subtract the $8,000 each household has been forced to pay, in added interest over the last 4 years due to your party's exuberance. Over $700 billion has been transferred directly from the middle class to the top 1%. This is unacceptable. It is disgraceful to see you stand there smiling, trying to put a pretty face on intellectually bankrupt ideology. It's not gonna work. I see the lipstick, but all I hear from your party is oink oink oink."

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Palin the Informercial Call Girl
Posted by: abemko on Oct 3, 2008 5:34 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ever notice how people lacking substance focus on style? Palin is like that late night come-on of the slick hot body babes - all suggestion and false promises. "Yes I'm know I'm hot and I'm all over your needs", she whispers. And if you stop and think, your inner voice is telling you that this is only going to cost you money and result in sadness.

Palin is a right wing resurrection of the 80's commercial - "I can bring home the bacon, stir it up in a pan, and never let you forget your a man". It is pathetic. This is a con game, you know where scared and insecure people respond to the come on of someone who sounds confident even when their inner voice is saying run.

The democrats need to call her more directly on lack of substance - similarly to what Couric did. Palin is just that scared and clueless 8th grade in-crowd queen who learned to survive by "cuteness" in public and nastiness behind peoples back. Don't let the republics define the game. Call her on her bullshit.

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» RE: Palin the Informercial Call Girl Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: Palin the Informercial Call Girl Posted by: peacefullaim
Who gives a rat's ass?
Posted by: donal1944 on Oct 3, 2008 5:38 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's Clone Wars round two.

Paleolithic Palen vs. the Senator from Bank of America.

Nor matter who wins, we lose, and that's a fact.

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» RE: Who gives a rat's ass? Posted by: Lauren
My Letter To My Local Paper
Posted by: desidid on Oct 3, 2008 5:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I find it extremely sad that mainstream media has determined the debate a success for Sarah Palin. The governor following in the Republican tradition of performance over substance is another example of why our government is failing the American public. Her refusal to answer questions and stick to talking points is a slap in the face to every American searching for transparency in government. Those who found her "performance" as substantive should ask themselves what they learned about the McCain/Palin administration? What I learned was that we would be in for another four years of an imperial presidency. While they mock Sen. Obama for his commitment to community service, and view his intelligence as elite, they have shown a disdain for ordinary Americans. McCain and Palin have lied at every turn, and they have done so with near impunity. While newspapers are grading the performance of the candidate (Palin) at the debate; they ignored the false statements, the lack of decorum, and the elite view which allows one not to be accountable to the public, and to state same by not answering a single question posed. As an African-American I view her behavior as another example of "White Privilege." Had Sen. Obama behaved in the same manner he would have been pilloried in every publication in the nation, yet a white candidate is allowed to offer us nothing except a canned speech, and it is viewed as a strong debate performance. I believe I have now crossed into an alternate universe where intelligence and commitment is mocked, while ignorance of the issues, lack of decorum, and a refusal to play by the rules are considered virtues. If Americans are wondering how we got into this morass we now find ourselves in, we need do nothing more than look at our national media. You Aiken Standard and your fellow print and video media have lost your bearings and your mission, which is to inform us, not cheerlead for mediocre politicians and amateur actors.
Desnee Flakes

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» RE: My Letter To My Local Paper Posted by: AnIndependentThinker
» RE: My Letter To My Local Paper Posted by: mpreb658@earthlink.net
jswanson
Posted by: joels on Oct 3, 2008 5:38 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Palin won it hands down! It wasn't even close. Biden was stiff and angry and frustrated and he looked OLD!

She did NOT answer most of the questions, but the style in which she did NOT answer them was a real hit with millions of middle class and middle Americans. She is truely one of us!

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» RE:Another Proud Posted by: desidid
» RE: Another Proud Posted by: AnIndependentThinker
» RE: Another Proud Posted by: helenwheels
» RE: Another Proud Posted by: desidid
» RE: jswanson Posted by: atezcan
» Are you on drugs? Or a shill? Posted by: rhinojos
» RE: jswanson Posted by: rchapin8391
» RE: jswanson Posted by: helenwheels
» RE: jswanson Posted by: Morell
» RE: jswanson Posted by: katee
» RE: jswanson: Who is "us"? Posted by: litebug
Here's the meme - Palin supports Civil Unions and won't outlaw abortion
Posted by: Jasonix on Oct 3, 2008 5:44 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In last night's debate, Palin said she totally agreed with the Democrats on Civil Unions for gays. During her interview with Katie Couric, Palin seemed to say that she's personally opposed to abortion, but that she wouldn't criminalize it if elected. Also, she bragged that Bristol's keeping her child was "her choice" and the record in Alaska shows she's done nothing notably pro-life while in office.

It's possible that Palin is trying to keep this agenda under the rug until after election day. But taking her at face value, her view on abortion is identical to Joe Biden's and John Kerry's (personally opposed, politically tolerant). We need to spread this meme to every evangelical/Pentecostal/conservative Catholic in America. Jimmy Carter ran a campaign based on evangelical identity, but respected Roe V. Wade while in office. The conservative Christian community has never forgiven Carter for his "betrayal." Now they're going to make the same "mistake" with Palin?

Palin = Carter. Palin = Carter. Palin = Carter. Repeat this over and over again any time you're in the ear shot of a conservative Christian.

With abortion and gay rights off the table, the only reason anyone would vote for McCain is to get more tax breaks for rich people, expand the war to Iran, and kill health care reform and alternative energy. Polls routinely show that 90% or more of Americans support these goals, apart from other issues. Since evangelical Christians are 36% of the American public, at least some must want these policies. Their two main issues - abortion and gay rights - aren't issues in this campaign! Beat it into their heads! YouTube it, post comments on Christian blogs, etc. And tell the conservative Christians that your guy is serious about reducing the need for abortions - Biden has a good record in that regard, while Palin and McCain have none.

Palin = Carter. It will work.

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Who really won?
Posted by: AnIndependentThinker on Oct 3, 2008 5:48 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Actually, I found a few remarkable points:

Palin still knows how to read (or memorize) a script; and Biden knows how to be disciplined.

Palin came across "cutely" like "Gidget." Biden came across as steadfast and knowledgeable.

Palin still doesn't answer questions.
Biden did answer most of the questions.

Palin really doesn't know what about what she had memorized.
Biden's answers were sincere and based on actual experience.

Palin has a dictatorial personality -- oops, that makes her MORE like Cheney...or maybe worse.
Biden corrected her on the true definition of what the VP is supposed to do.

Palin still doesn't know how to pronounce names. She called Sen. Biden "O-biden" a few times.
Biden at least did get his facts straight.

Palin did not trip over her feet, didn't slur her words, didn't spit all over herself...so I guess that's an upgrade given her recent one-on-one interviews.
Biden did not lose his temper, did not become condescending, and was able to keep his cool. That's one point for him.

Overall, Palin probably won back their right-wing base...especially with comments on how Biden's wife would "have a place in heaven." I betcha she can only give scripted speeches, and that's why she can't, and won't conduct any other interviews. That spells real trouble for the American people.

Biden, on the other hand, helped to sure-up the base that Barack Obama has already won.

Do I believe this debate was a game changer? Nope. But it did keep Palin from killing her future political career, so that's one point for her.

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» RE: Who really won? Posted by: VZEQICVA
Here's the issue I see as pivotal here...
Posted by: Farasien on Oct 3, 2008 5:51 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Having watched the debate, if you can call it that, I think what happened was that Biden did what most liberal minded folks would do in his position... He tried to defend the policies of Obama and the democrats with facts. I'm a big fan of facts- as are most people who can still manage to think after 8+ years of bullshit being shoved down their throats- but Joe and Jane America aren;t. Most americans (and I happen to be one myself) are stupid and work on emotion rather than facts. They will almost always vote for the asshole who makes them feel better about the situation, even if they don't DO anything about it. They know, somewhere deep down inside that they are bankrupt, as is their once-great nation and there is going to be hellishly hard times ahead. They know we've turned into a third-world despotic country, but can;t bring themselves to admit it and so put an american flag over the pile of corpses and smoldering remains of the Constitution, hoping their patriotism will somehow cover the crimes of our 'leaders' and hide their culpability in putting them into office. They will always-ALWAYS vote for someone who says 'its OK, its not your fault' and 'be proud of yourself! you were born into the 'greatest' country in the world! USA!USA!USA!!!'. Unfortunately, Biden tried to reason and level with the american sheep. Palin played the old cheerleader-dipshit card, and its going to change her image. Flirting with the camera, looking unblinkingly at the camera (and old 'alpha male' trick used by expert manipulators) and using language that brings her intellectual level down (this is why she still has an accent, folks- it is a tool to make her look like one of 'us'- go ask an actor or voice coach if you don't believe me) are all methods that make her look like the dumbass cheerleader we all loved to dispise from high school. The reality is that she is another millionaire politician who plays the game like every other millionaire politician, she just has better speech teachers and is less honest than Biden. As a result of this debate, expect to see the polls go up for mcInsane. Though I HATE the tactics she uses, because they are so very disingenuous, people- stupid, demoralized, scared people- the very ones who keep voting republican every election- will be voting more strongly for the criminals than those who have the real answers to the problems of the day. I hope like hell Obama learns the lessons he needs to in oratory to win the next 2 debates, because if not, by hook or crook (most likely the latter) he's going to lose to Bush the Third.

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What A Champion For Women!
Posted by: loxias on Oct 3, 2008 5:55 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Man what a true leader! I mean why can't EVERY progressive woman get behind the power of their sex?!
Democracy VA VA VOOOM!
Forget your silly little minds, girls, just blow kisses, wink and talk in circles saying nothing.
You can even fix your lipstick in the reflection of the glass ceiling.

It obviously works. Look how many males responded favorably?
The country is at it's worst point EVER.
Don't you WANT a candidate who is angry about that?
Obviously, the answer is hell no. Hugs and kisses is all the average citizen needs these days. One cute wink and the iron spike of debt and militarism rammed up their backside is forgotten.
Good luck.

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» Misogyny on Parade at AlterNet Posted by: Last Chance
» A Political Dirty Trick Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: Misogyny on Parade at AlterNet Posted by: helenwheels
» RE: What A Champion For Women! Posted by: stopthemaddness2
An Excellent Debate
Posted by: Last Chance on Oct 3, 2008 5:57 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was relieved and happy for Sarah Palin the woman that she did so much better than predicted, and when she spoke about Alaska as the former Governor she was obviously very well informed, but on every other topic Senator Biden knew far more and he clearly exposed John McCain's duplicity -- but not hers. Both gentleman Joe and lady Sarah did very well in that regard, each showing due respect for the other. So, for that reason I thought it was a good discussion of the issues and the Democratic candidate came out well ahead.

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» RE: An Excellent Debate Posted by: desidid
» RE: An Excellent Debate Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: An Excellent Debate Posted by: desidid
What Palin is selling is intoxicating--and that's the danger
Posted by: taxidriver on Oct 3, 2008 5:56 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Palin is selling the notion of a guilt-free America. She almost started singing "Proud to be an American." She criticized Obama countless times for voting against the troops. She refused to admit that wayward American bombs and bad intel killed innocents in Afghanistan. And she even had the gall to suggest that Democrats wanted to hoist the white flag of surrender in Iraq. This is political cynicism at its worst.

Also, Palin is obviously quite proud of being ignorant. She can't pronounce "nuclear," "Iran," or "Iraq" correctly. The main point here, I think, is that she just doesn't care, and neither will most of her supporters.

Watching her debate Joe Biden was almost identical to watching the debate in the movie "Bob Roberts." I kept looking to see if Palin would whip out a banjo or harmonica, but I had to settle for winks and "you betchas!"

Palin makes the uneducated feel good about themselves--a formidable power.

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No, she failed miserably
Posted by: PandaBear on Oct 3, 2008 6:00 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only reason people think Palin didn't flub up the debate is because they remember her disastrous interviews. She was embarrassing. She obviously dodged every question and sounded like a high schooler trying to be elected to the student council. It was pathetic. Her supposed charm just looked dismissive to all the issues and every answer was vague and insubstantial. Those who didn't see through that are a puzzle to me.

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» RE: No, she failed miserably Posted by: Quannah
Beware Medicare and Palin
Posted by: bthespoon on Oct 3, 2008 6:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That long windy Reagan quote that Palin launched into in her closing.

Guess what? Palin's final quote was from Ronald Reagan, warning that without vigilance, "you and I are going to spend our sunset years telling our children, and our children's children, what it once was like in
America when men were free"

In fact, Reagan was not warning about a general lack of vigilance about freedom, he was warning what would happen if Medicare was enacted.

Reagan Essays

"Then, finally, the closing pitch, with Reagan the actor painting the portrait of an American sunset in a totalitarian world brought-on by the hell-hound of compulsory health care coverage under Medicare:

And if you don't do this and if I don't do it, one of these days you and I are going to spend our sunset years telling our children, and our children's children, what it once was like in America when men were free."

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And I quote: (because I wrote it down cuz it was so damn funny!)
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Oct 3, 2008 6:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When Palin was commenting about being willing to have another debate, she said, "I would like to be able to answer these tough questions..."

---
Did she really answer ANY of the questions?

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WHAT IS HER OBSESSION WITH "JOE SIX-PACKS"????
Posted by: whathappened on Oct 3, 2008 6:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If I hear "JOE SIX-PACK" or "HOCKEY MOM" or "ORIGINAL MAVERICK" one more F*#@*#G time....I am going to throw my TV out the F*#@*#G window!!!

And then I am going to sue the Republican Party for driving me to the brink of insanity!

What IS her obsession with six-packs anyway?!?!

Is she trying to increase Cindy McCain's beer sales or what??

Or is she labeling average Americans as alcoholics??

She HAS to be smashed drunk, 24-7, to spout out all the rhetoric bull she does!

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» This sort of commentary Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: This sort of commentary Posted by: sausage
» RE: This sort of commentary Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: This sort of commentary Posted by: Morell
» RE: This sort of commentary Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: This sort of commentary Posted by: Bibsisis
did palin think she was at a high school debate?
Posted by: helenb1azes on Oct 3, 2008 6:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And when Palin did speak, even if you disagreed with her words, based on the way she talked, you could feel that she meant them.

NOT! The woman appeared sincerely insincere, nervous and flighty--just as dippy as ever.

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With all due respect...
Posted by: jebpgh on Oct 3, 2008 6:37 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A lot of the commentary here is strikingly at odds with the polling on the undecideds who watched the debates. In both CBS and CNN polls, undecided voters broke TWO TO ONE in favor of Joe Biden. I was scratching my head on that one since I watched the debate with my 22 year old daughter and 18 year old son last night. I chalked it up as a draw and gave Palin a couple points as well. But my daughter said she really didn't like Palin in the debate, thought she was "whinney" and that her answers were so programmed that it was obvious she couldn't respond to anything on the fly - she repeated talking points over and over. My son was even better. On the ride to school this morning he said that he really learned a lot about Joe Biden in the debate and that he has a lot of respect for him.

That one took me back. He was right. We are all so pre-occupied as political insiders with Sarah Palin that we fail to appreciate that most voters have no idea who Joe Biden is. He came across last night as (1) experienced (2) thoughtful (3) calm and (4) a guy who has gone through a lot of personal shit and that you would trust with your kids. Palin's personal story has been a soap opera since her nomination - and that didn't change last night. Joe Biden has emerged as a real guy with real life experience and knows as much - if not more about the things McCain says he knows about to make the folks who were marginal about Barack feel better.

And that, I think, is why the polling broke 2 to 1 in his favor from the one group we need to win debates with each and every time.

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Palin wins!!
Posted by: sausage on Oct 3, 2008 6:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sarah Palin didn't say "ah," or "uh," or "d'uh," or "d'oh" once during the debate.

And it is also significant her panty hose didn't fall down round her ankles.

Therefore it's safe to say it was a clear victory for the Alaska governor.

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» RE: Palin wins!! Posted by: whathaway
» RE: Palin wins!! Posted by: helenahanbasquet
» RE: Palin wins!! Posted by: whathaway
» RE: Palin wins!! Posted by: helenahanbasquet
» RE: Palin wins!! Posted by: whathaway
Stop the Circus Please!
Posted by: canadagirl on Oct 3, 2008 6:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't think Sarah Palin has nothing left than to mug Biden, like she did Obama the first time she spoke on a national stage. She muggs people, tries to steal their thunder, grab it as her own, and talk nonsense.


She was absolutely hyper last night, no thought once again behind her answers, no substance just talking points. Trying hard to score a 'gotcha' moment on Joe Biden. I just can't believe McCain..and the Republican Party, everyone of them praise her, state lies about, the absolute same talking points showing they don't care about fact's just promo. It really is disgusting for this particular time in history.

She lied, lied and lied again. She spouts what is given to her with no checking of her own. That is a classic example of an opportunist, not a 'thoughtful' careful candidate.

Her career started with the dirty money of Bill Allen, she didn't bring the 'ole boys club' down, the FBI did. She hacked an opponant's email account when she worked at the 'Energy Commission' and hated that job and quit. She hated it because she did not like the steady 9-5 structure, the inability to get what she wanted and left after committing crimes of her own. She is sleazy. She left the indigenous peoples out in the cold, she stopped providing for special needs kids before she had one herself. She left women in the cold, so much that the rigid, radical belief of her administration as mayor and governor....almost condoned rape....blaming the women.

Joe Biden was respectful, to the point, factual of McCain's record and not giving into her trap. Not once did he let her set him up.
She tried on several occassions but failed. She has no credibility left.

But I beg the McCain camp and the Republican Party to stop the circus. We are not stupid. This is a serious election, on the job training for her will never happen. she does not absorb anything.
To protect her, you all look like idiots without any class, integrity or core values...just deceiving people.

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» RE: Stop the Circus Please! Posted by: stopthemaddness2
» RE: Stop the Circus Please! Posted by: helenahanbasquet
waynep
Posted by: waynep on Oct 3, 2008 6:43 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
there was no question that Biden knew what he was talking about, and so did Palen. Except what Biden was talking about was reality. What Palen was talking about was talking points. At least she was honest in the beginning when she basically announced that she was not going really going to answer any questions, but rather she was going to talk to the American people. Frankly, I don't have much interest in silly little colloquialisms or in being winked at, so that might have turned me off to what she was saying...over and over...and over.
A couple of comments that I would like to make. If you have to repeatedly call yourself something silly like a "maverick" then, well to use a Palin like phrase, honey you ain't one. AND please, please, please..will someone please call out McCain and Palin when they repeatedly refer to her expertise in Energy. Why? How? What evidence? I see absolutely no expertise in anything, but certainly not in energy policy. Her big accomplishment of the natural gas pipeline is 1>) not built and may well never be and 2.) it is only designed to go to Canada to facilitate oil exploration and removal from the shale rock. This is the most costly and environmentally destructive way to obtain oil.
Energy expert? NOT
Also would like to see someone ask McCain where he learned to "win a war." Where did he get this expertise, and why has he so not shared that information? Exactly what war has McCain won? Why, with all of his "national security experience" did he get the beginning of this outrageous war so very, very wrong in his descriptions of the time , money, ease of winning?
I know that there is a movement for "magical thinking", that if you repeat it over and over, it will come true. I don't buy it, and I don't think it serves the American public to allow the Neo-cons to dominate the language with terms to their liking.

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» RE: waynep Posted by: helenahanbasquet
X-POLYGAMIST WIFE in ARIZONA
Posted by: X-POLYGAMIST WIFE on Oct 3, 2008 6:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the beginning....I heard Palin say "God" all the time. But no more.

Now God is behind the "winks" and "gotchas" because Palin is a woman on a mission, and that mission is to promote her fundamentalist Christian beliefs.

It's what Palin didn't say that scares me.

BANKING ON HEAVEN . COM

http://www.bankingonheaven.com

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BIden Won
Posted by: RedFoxOne on Oct 3, 2008 6:44 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Personally, I think Biden kicked Palin right to the Curb. At this point, I cannot believe anyone with an ounce of common sense would be taking McBush seriosuly.

Jiff
Privacy Center

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» RE: BIden Won...Yep! Posted by: peacefullaim
Serial Mom Flanders Palin
Posted by: riprogressivedemocrats on Oct 3, 2008 6:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Last night Palin sounded like a cross between Mr. Flanders on the Simpsons (o-realeee-o-o-ya-betcha) and Kathleen Turners character in Serial Mom who kills people she doesn't like on the school board in between baking cupcakes.

Like the Rovian candidate she is, she was all sizzle & no steak, but what does it matter if the product is any good as long as it sells?

The scary part is that this will sell to Americans that trust a President that they can invite to a picnic more than one who knows something more than they do. Only Palin, like Cheney wants to seize more power for the VP and has contempt for anyone with questions, can stick in the knife with a smile and not a sneer.

Look out America, this is a dangerous combination & Palin seemed to be running for 2012.

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Bad news from the post debate polls
Posted by: mike1997 on Oct 3, 2008 6:50 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The post debate polls are in and they show a solid win for Biden especially amongst the undecided voters. 46% think Biden won against only 21% who think Palin won, the rest think it was a tie.

Great. Just when I have pigeonholed undecided voters as complete chuckleheads who couldn't tie their own shoes they see right through Palin's folksy bs and make the right call.

Sometimes it's ok to be proven wrong.

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Palin wins
Posted by: solrev on Oct 3, 2008 6:52 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is no doubt in my mind that Palin trounced Paris Hilton in the debate. “I am not going to answer questions, I am going to stump speech America. Did I mention that the oil industry supports Alaska, Alaska, Alaska, and Alaskan? Did I mention that lower taxes create jobs, Bush told you that in 2001. Did I mention that if we drill baby drill, we can get off foreign oil because our 3% is bigger than their 97%? Did I mention Alaska and taxes, because that’s what we do in Alaska? Did I mention that we know the difference between a tactic and a strategy, and that we will win a good oil deal in Iraq no matter how much it costs? Did I mention that Petraeus is Mars? Did I mention that McCain spent 8 years in Nam tricking the Vietnamese into giving him smokes. Did I mention that the counter insurgency tactic or strategy would work in Afghanistan, where there are some counter insurgents? Do not look back to see how we got into this mess, because we can do the same thing and get out of it. Now do not ask me anymore stupid media filtered questions or I will just give you a stupid answer. That’s what we do in Alaska.” I am still going to vote for Paris because she is a winner and Palin is just a runner up.

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» RE: Palin wins Posted by: peacefullaim
The gaming of John McCain
Posted by: canadagirl on Oct 3, 2008 7:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, many articles out there condemning Sarah Palin. I will still defend what I have heard, read and seen from all corners of the American media.

OIL is the #1 issue for the Repubs in 2008, and all the other 'smoke' of competency is related to a state that could have turned blue this election season............ALASKA, OIL and the fortunes of the Bush, Cheney, Rove 'farewell' party........that have decided on Palin as a 'political prostitute' for her state. Drill Baby Drill, is a very rich commondity as is the Republican Party in Alaska. You will find this Purple state camaflouged of Red, is really turning Blue. Obama was ahead at one point in the last few month's. Many of the 'ole boys' of the Red Party are either in prison or on trial as we speak, with a few strands still left 'undercover'....like the crooks at the bottom in governorship and lawyering etc.. Much is to be done yet for Cheney OIL to be passed with Canadians and more riches for the masters of deception.

What will Sarah and Todd Palin go home to, if not winning in this candidacy? The Alaskans, especially those she sabatoged for expediancy are waiting, with much more of a case to make for her impeachment. Actually, There were very little Repubs to choose from in her administration because of the 'stripes the repubs are wearing these days'. She was in a jam a year ago, now she's facing charges.......great start for a bimbo.

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Folksy...
Posted by: demetria on Oct 3, 2008 7:00 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have had ENOUGH "folksy" with Bush. We do not need another classless administration and certainly not a continuation of "nukular" and gotcha, wanna, git ya, and all those dropped g's? I think she came off as a high school debate cheerleader and everyone is afraid to say that. She stays on what she has memorized, even if it was not the question. And let's face it, Joe Six Pack is a buzz word for bubba WHITE men!

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Blog shows what AlterNet does best.
Posted by: 8 nontheist on Oct 3, 2008 7:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This blog which has views on the debate by noted progressive minds is what AlterNet does best & is why I continue to use AlterNet. I thought Biden won it at 1st, then I though it was a tie, I'm back to giving the debat to Biden. This blog refreshed my memory. I started watching on CNN but I tired of the video; so I left the audio on & read. My students taught me how to study, watch TV & listen to the radio at the same time.
Very much off thread: Americans had been multi-tasking long before the web. I'm not going to get into the debate about the existance of a gene which leaves us hard wired to multi-task or multi-tasking being a learned behavior or a combo of genetic & learned behavior.
To close, this blog shows what AlterNet does best, nobody beats AlterNet at this.

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"Check me out butt, don't go past my looks."
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Oct 3, 2008 7:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I posted this elsewhere in "peek":

She reads well butt, I bet she doesn't actually know what it is that she's reading and what it means.

Also, she plays the game of that old "p" teaser we knew in H.S.
She uses her looks to distract her lack of legitimacy.
I would actually bet that she is the real CONTROLLER in the home.

I'm a single adult hetero male and, I have ALWAYS avoided this sort of female.
They are phony to the core and probably to the corps.
I'm glad that not all women are like her.

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no pass for Palin
Posted by: nor cal surfer on Oct 3, 2008 7:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
politicians manage expectations down, while my toddlers rise to theirs.

this country is more afraid of thinking than it is of terrorists.

"I'm not going to answer the questions the moderator wants..."

get the fuck off the stage, Palin. we need leaders right now, not empty heads filled w/Bible verses and talking points.

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"Check me out butt, don't go past my looks."
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Oct 3, 2008 7:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I posted this elsewhere in "peek":

She reads well butt, I bet she doesn't actually know what it is that she's reading and what it means.

Also, she plays the game of that old "p" teaser we knew in H.S.
She uses her looks to distract her lack of legitimacy.
I would actually bet that she is the real CONTROLLER in the home.

I'm a single adult hetero male and, I have ALWAYS avoided this sort of female.
They are phony to the core and probably to the corps.
I'm glad that not all women are like her.

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any hint of leadership?
Posted by: atezcan on Oct 3, 2008 7:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i am so impressed with our resilience to educate and will to still fight in bewilderment the ignorance of some american public. did we not learn anything from the bush era that folksiness and cutesy are not enough qualities to lead?

but it all ties to our general view of authority: we treat our kids as friends when they need guidance and role-models; here we treat our fellow citizens as our chums at the bar. we need leaders not friends. those who can feel our pain but will do the best for our country even if it might hurt us, just like parent would do. in this case, we need competence not some one who can use the same jargon as us.

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Gelhart is full of shit on this one!
Posted by: Bibsisis on Oct 3, 2008 7:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How old are you, fifteen? You have no more knowledge than Pail-in.

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Henry Buck
Posted by: Henry Buck on Oct 3, 2008 7:20 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Where is the proper anger! Sarah Palin has made a mockery of the American people. She is appealing to the 'low information' voters who think this is American Idol. This is our America that she is messing with. People should be mad as hell and be on the streets yelling -- I am mad as hell and I am not going to take this anymore!

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It's not going to work this time.
Posted by: Coleman on Oct 3, 2008 7:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Last night Palin secured the racist, ignorant base, but remember, people: for Obama to win you don't have to convince everyone, you just have to win over "enough".

And this year, the down-home "I can pack a school lunch and run the PTA, therefore I can sit down for multi-lateral talks with nuclear-armed states" routine isn't going to work.

This year, the fact-spouting liberal smartypants are going to win. Why?

Everyone in America knows how much money they make, and all the Democrats have to do to win is keep hammering home this point:

If you are in the top 5% of income earners, you're going to pay your fair share.

The Republicans will counter with the "what about small business" lie, but every small business owner in America knows that they don't "make" half a million dollars in take-home pay even if their Burger King does a million in revenue.

The economy's going to shed another 50,000 jobs this month and swing voters are going to go Democratic.

There are a lot of non-racist fiscal conservatives out there connecting the dots, and they look at the trillions in debt, they look at the failed policy, and they don't want a frivolous idiot a heartbeat away from the most powerful position in the world in the most important election of their lifetimes.

The Bubba Bumfuck routine just isn't going to work for enough people to win the election. And it's shameful, absolutely shameful, for liberals to cede territory by praising Palin and saying she did "what she needed to do." Of course she did. She avoided a complete meltdown. But Biden hit a home run with the class war rhetoric. This year the message is going to connect.

The ignorant racist base she rallied last night are lost to the Democrats anyway. And the rest of the people are smarter than we think. They're ready to tax the rich. They're ready to end the war. They don't want fucking start another one. Do you realize how awesome that's going to go over with tired, broken military families (for electoral purposes, regardless of what US Policy will be)?

Jesus, liberals, celebrate for once. Tens of thousands show up for Obama whenever he gives a speech. These things go in cycles, and it's a Democratic year. Do not let the media hype this horse race into something it's not. Do not wring your hands next to the water cooler at work today. Stand your ground. Stick to your guns. Don't worry about sounding like an elitist.

PS: shame on the MSM for playing total softball in the debate. No follow-up questions, no policy questions. They basically let the candidates give a speech. It was shameful, obvious manipulation to play nice with Palin when she should have been taken to task hardcore. Even some of the pundits noticed. I'll bet you a lot of swing voters noticed, too.

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» "Snow Job Square Glasses" Posted by: Kym525
Of course, Palin won...
Posted by: jimidee on Oct 3, 2008 7:30 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
if this had been an interview for a game show host. Does the American people really want this woman "you betcha"-ing Putin or other world leaders? The game was rigged in Palin's favor in that if she were asked a question that she did not know anything about, she simply changed the subject. She even told us that she was not going to answer questions the "way" the moderator wanted her to. What kind of shit is that?

Does this so-called debate erase all of those moments that she had with Charley or Katie, where they would not let her simply evade the question or change the subject? Nope. If this single performance convinces ANYONE that this woman is now ready to be a heartbeat away from the Presidency then put her on Meet the Press, or better yet, the Rachel Maddow Show.

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Lilly
Posted by: Lilly on Oct 3, 2008 7:35 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
re ALSO: With credit to Dooce on Twitter, this is the comment that gave me the biggest laugh on a laugh-filled morning: "I took a shot of tequila every time Palin said 'also' and now I'm dead.".

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Moderator Gwen Ifill
Posted by: boing007 on Oct 3, 2008 7:53 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't think that any of Gwen Ifill's questions or her manner were biased. So much for the pre-debate rantings of the RNC spin machine. It was pretty mild stuff, really.

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» RE: Moderator Gwen Ifill Posted by: VZEQICVA
Sarah Palin all the way -
Posted by: symcokid on Oct 3, 2008 7:53 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
she won the debate with flying colors, made Joe Biden look like, "what kind of hornet's nest did I walk into?". John McCain will become Prez for a while and because of all the hoopla and excitement he will tip over after a few months.

Sarah will then take over and get the economy of this self perpetuating government rolling once again. Now we'll be able to get all kinds of loans in order to keep this economy viable and under the IOUSofA's thumb.

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» RE: Sarah Palin all the way - Posted by: surfreality
» I agree. They've lulled Posted by: JohnJlws
Palin? Seriously?
Posted by: kodyaudette on Oct 3, 2008 7:57 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Her platform for this debate had NOTHING to do with her policies or politics! She spent the entire time building up her "mom" image and plugging McCain as a "Maverick". Did you count how many times she used that as her argument? more than 14 times. What about the energy crisis? John's a maverick! Abortion? Maverick! Gay marri- Maverick!!! Umm tell me what you'd do as VP. John is a Maverick!!!

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Deregulation in Action
Posted by: Lilly on Oct 3, 2008 7:57 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Palin announced last night that she was going to ignore the traditional debate format and do her own thing. I know Palin. I met her many times when I was teaching; her type was especially prevalent in the 1960's and 1970's. The scenario goes something like this:

Teacher: The course we begin today will include lectures, readings, labs, a paper, and an exam.

Palinoid Student: I'm not doing any of that. Instead I will write a poem about the course or maybe paint a picture of the classroom. All depends on how I FEEL.

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on energy: bumper stickers versus long range policies
Posted by: counterpoint on Oct 3, 2008 8:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When Sarah Palin repeated party slogans about drilling our way to energy security Joe Biden showed the audience why it does not compute: We consume 25 percent of the world's oil reserves but only 3 percent are on our territory. Consequently, ramping up production would always remain a drop in the bucket. Furthermore, global energy demand will soon outstrip supply. Then what? Everything today - transportation, manufacturing, housing, the military, even agriculture - depends on cheap fuel. Without it we'll crash. That's why Obama and Biden plan to invest heavily in renewable energy technologies, both to create jobs and to lead toward a liveable future. Republicans, by contrast, have us believe they can somehow patch it all together with a few defiant "Drill, Baby, Drill!" bumper stickers.

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Warmer...
Posted by: kodyaudette on Oct 3, 2008 8:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I especially like when they were talking about Global warming and she basically dodged the issue and said she thought it was a climate cycle. Hello, we're due for an ice age, not warming. Joe Biden looked at her and basically said "You're full of shit, Palin. Wake up."

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Way to Go, Joe
Posted by: beautifulady2003 on Oct 3, 2008 8:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Great job, Joe, except I wish you and Barack would stop groveling before the sacred cow, Israel, and develop a more beneficial middle east policy. Both of the candidates' remarks last night about "loving" Israel turned my stomach.

As for Palin, I'm sure she scored big points with the "folks" out there who don't know enough about politics to realize she's all sizzle and no steak. You betcha! All Palin showed is that she can be successfully coached, which is what the GOP wants when the shift to fascism becomes final. Palin can be spoonfed talking points and can be depended upon to stick to them. She can be charming, folksy, cute and very creepy. The Stepford Wife goes to the White House? I hope not.

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» I say, Posted by: JohnJlws
» RE: Way to Go, Joe Posted by: donl51
Palin? Really? Are you joking? Is this irony?
Posted by: ozymandius on Oct 3, 2008 8:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The assertion that there was any level of parity in the debate in terms of knowledge or capacity is patently obscene.

To elevate Ms. Palin's ability to be sickeningly folksy and to nervously regurgitate interchangeable nondescript talking points is an insult to our nation. Her passable "performance" while passionate, was nowhere near the equal of the clear descriptions of complex issues delivered by Mr. Biden.

This is not an episode of "Project Runway". Folksy zingers should not be a measure of one's capacity to be a leader of our nation.

Take the exchange on Israel for instance. Ms. Palin flopped around in broad platitudes while Mr. Biden gave one of the most succinct and clear descriptions of the contemporary politics of the region, nuanced with his assertions of what has been done wrong due to lack of understanding of the same.

How can any REAL journalist comment on that exchange and call their responses even close to equal. The fact that someone can smile and wink does not obviate their need for understanding nor does it make me feel comfortable with their ability to govern in a complex world. In fact, quite the opposite. (Remember George Bush rubbing Angela Merkels shoulders? That was real folksy.)

I'm not speaking from a partisan position. I am speaking for the vast number of people who are tired of being fed slick populist pap as though it were an all encompassing virtue which negated the need for actual competence or understanding.

Also, at some point it might be nice if she had actually answered the question before her with more than how great America is. Is this how she would deal with world leaders? We get it. She loves America. But guess what, so do her opponents. This is not a "Love America" competition. The question is what talents she can offer to our great nation, besides winking. There are amazing women of all political stripes in this country. She's not high on that list.

The fact that Ms. Palin did not spontaneously combust on stage does not mean that she came even close to rivaling the clear experience and confidence which Mr. Biden showed.

To my mind the mere assertion that Ms. Palin should even be considered to be in line for the presidency is itself very near to treason. She has a right to rise to the level of her potential. But she is out of her depth now and I do not want to put our country in her hands just because she can be folksy. There are more vital prerequisites for this job.

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» EXACTLY!!! Posted by: JohnJlws
One Question Disqualified One of Them
Posted by: JohnJlws on Oct 3, 2008 8:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I had trouble following "the Governor." She seemed to talk about "mavericks," "looking backwards" and "energy" regardless of the question. And then, even when professing some expertise in energy because her state has oil, she had difficulty coming up with any specifics. I'm still wondering "but what would you guys do except tell us how rosy the future looked regardless of how dark reality says it looks?"

I wasn't impressed going in and shockingly wasn't impressed coming out.

The one question, however, that totally disqualified her was a question she has received before and should have been prepared for: "What is the role of the VP?"

To this she tried to start with a joke and then proceeded to embrace Cheney's illegal power grab and suggest that the VP had some kind of dotted line subordination to the legislative branch.

Then, Biden rattled off the responsibilities of the VP and recited the Constitution as though he'd written it, which isn't that far from the truth.

We need a POTUS and VP who, when sworn in, will honor, above all others, that one line in the ceremony "to uphold the Constitution."

I don't want to be perceived as looking backward, although I think if you don't have a strong foundation and understanding of history you are condemned to repeat it, but the last 8 years have been an unparalleled display of a team who not only does not uphold the Constitution, but holds it in contempt.

If we want what we have "the Governor" and "the Maverick" are the very clear choice. If we want a better future, Obama and Biden have at least a thorough understanding of, and have at least professed the desire to uphold, the Constitution. As history suggests, we could do far worse.

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As far as the debate went....
Posted by: donl51 on Oct 3, 2008 8:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
....they each handled themselves quite well,I'm neither party,and actually don't care for either party so,going against my own values I'm to choose the better of the parties...Joe Biden,I liked somewhat for experience...as far as who's prettier..the dumbest comments I've ever heard!!...too me matters not!I'll talk to a knowledgeble aardvark!...Palin as before dodged questions and too this man...does not give me that confidence needed....and she' wants the VP to weild more power....like Chaney??...White flag of surrender sticks in my crawl.....as if this attack on Hussein was justified,our job,if to go in at all, would be to ..get in, get it over with,get out!!...no flags!!

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Winked At or Hoodwinked
Posted by: irae on Oct 3, 2008 8:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We’ve been winked and smiled at and hoodwinked just too often in the past eight years to be charmed by Ms. Palin. Her answers were formatted just as they were written by her handlers. If she sat across the table from Putin or any other leader, the wink and nudge just wouldn’t get it…because she doesn’t.

The “filter” of the media questions she mentions is, I guess, requiring a direct answer to a direct question. What a concept!

Send this nice lady back to Alaska where she can put a bounty on other animals(besides wolves) and refuse the moves to protect polar bears. Honesty and forthright communication are also endangered in Alaska.

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When is she going to show us her tits?
Posted by: WhatNow? on Oct 3, 2008 8:42 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Come on Sarah! That's all Joe six pack really wants. And please keep your mouth shut. Every time you start in with your ignorant sounding accent it's really a turn off. Joe six pack only wants you to open your mouth for one reason. And you can "betcha" it's not to hear your grating voice.

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Scranton, Alaska and Western Ohio
Posted by: bobtr900 on Oct 3, 2008 8:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When the people in Scranton cannot pay their heating bills they cannot blame Joe Biden. He did a good job, but I suspect they cannot or will not comprehend the difference. And additionally, they will let their racism rule their votes. My guess is they also voted for St. Reagan, their patron saint. So they got what they deserved, back then.. And they will do the same, once again. What they have sown, so shall they reap.

The same reapings will accrue to the Pope and his brethren, the evangelical fundies. As the Republican party, their party goes, so goest they.

But all of them will drag the rest of us down to their craven level. of killing for ideology, either religious ideology or business ideology. Both ideologies are little different. And both of them operate irrespective of facts and human life. But that is another set of issues, a side note, not appertaining to the topic at hand.

Unfortunately they drag the rest of us, the disenfranchised 240+ million, right along with themselves, the enfranchised and unenlightened 59+ million.

So, sarcastically, I say thank you Scranton.

And I say the same thing about the people in Western Ohio. I know a woman there who is probably about 90yrs old, and who speaks the same way Sarah Palin does. Gotcha, ain'tcha, doggone it, and employs other word mangling sloppy endings, including 'thinkeen', etc.

On substance Biden won. But on pure corn pone, home spun, aw shucks and gosh darn, language fracturing dialect, Palin won. Gosh darn it! But Rove and the Rethugs are probably, once again, going to be correct. People won't understand that, they will FEEL that she touched their souls.

And another point, is Palin hyperactive, or what? Or does she have an incipient beginning thyroid problem, being that she is so bug-eyed. If her overly wide-eyed look got any more so, she would pop a blood vessel or two.

So once agin we have the usual Rethug case of form over substance. The case where image is everything, while fact and reality are 'trumped' down the stairs, out the door, into the street and under the bus.

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I actually did both.
Posted by: roncypert on Oct 3, 2008 9:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I watched it on television and listened to it on radio. It really didn't make much difference.

I am more in the camp of the last three opinions. While Sarah Palin may have "did what she needed to do", that does not mean that she did well.

From a purely apolitical vantage point, whether evaluating the tickets or those at the top of the tickets, this election should be a no-brainer. To those claiming that Sarah Palin (or John McCain for that matter, with regards to the President) is qualified to be Vice President, which means that she is also qualified to be President, I say "Your partisan slip is showing".

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» RE: I actually did both. Posted by: roncypert
What, huh, who, how, errrmmmm?????? CONFUSED!!!
Posted by: maddy on Oct 3, 2008 9:09 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What debate were these folks watching?

Palin spoke in platitudes and talking points AND she talked in circles. There were many gaffes, mistakes, lies, and contradictions: How, for example, can you keep saying that government will reform wall street but in the same breath then say that government needs to step aside to let the private sector do its business? If global warming is "cyclical," why would we need to bother reducing carbon emissions? Her talking points tripped her up repeatedly. And c'mon: i'm sure her base cannot be thrilled with her whole "I have gay friends and support civil unions" spiel--a spiel which also revealed that she is a very bad liar.

I wonder if all the folks saying that Palin did better than expectations hold working people in contempt--as though we don't have bullshit detectors. She was a pandering wind-up doll. Her prepping was painfully obvious--"maverick, maverick, maverick... maverick..." The winkiness and cutsiness didn't seem "homespawn"--they seemed embarrassing, false, and disgraceful. Nothing she did worked.

Biden handed her her ass. He was passionate and compassionate, he was detailed, and he (unlike Obama in debate with McCain) CLEARLY confronted her lies. Most importantly, in contrast with her incessant winking and faux populism, he demonstrated why REAL experience and intelligence matter.

And, just one more example. Did ya'll not hear Palin's INACCURATE definition of the VP--that the Consitution allows the VP to expand their authority and lord over the legislature? That was as stupid and wrong as all the Couric stuff, but it is also TERRYFYING.

Everything I read last night was similiar--polls of independent voters and non-Fox pundits said that Biden won. Did everyone watch too much Fox since I turned in last night or something? This was no contest. Biden nailed it. Palin was a disaster.

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» No kidding, maddy. Posted by: Coleman
We are so near the bottom of the sea, also, though.
Posted by: heyhick on Oct 3, 2008 9:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ifill - If you ask a question, demand an answer. Cut off a dodge. Don't waste our time enabling the campaign charade.

Palin and Biden - How is it that the debate or performance is judged through a relativity lense tied to each candidate, and not the other. Why is it Biden against expectations of Biden and Palin against expectations of Palin? Its Bulllloney.

Where is the competition of ideas and rationale or evidence supporting the ideas. We are so near the bottom of the sea, also, though.

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Caribou Barbie won and set women back in politics a good TEN YEARS
Posted by: Kym525 on Oct 3, 2008 9:18 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Last night was a shambles.

Joe Biden had so many chances to utterly decimate Sarah Palin and HE BLEW IT!!!

WHY???

It seemed to me that once again this misplaced "chivalry" in which not attacking a female candidate passionately but fairly was in play, which I find rather hypocritical when no one had a problem with Hilary Clinton who stood her ground like a TRUE CANDIDATE and not a FEMALE one. Sarah Palin's non-answers and attempts at being "cute" set women candidates back as serious contenders at least ten years. There will be a slew of female candidates who will be forced to be even more adept and politically savvy in order to distance themselves from the travesty that is Caribou Barbie.

Sarah Palin had so many holes in her responses that one could have easily driven a supertanker through it and still had room for several yachts. When she spoke of being for working-class families, Biden should have countered her arguments by pointing out that she supported cuts to social programs in Alaska, including programs to assist disabled children--which he could have paused to let the American people remember that her own child has Down's Syndrome. When she spoke of being a working mom, Biden should have countered that her party has consistently voted AGAINST any legislation, including EQUAL PAY, that would help working moms. When she spoke of ending government graft and corruption, Biden should have demanded to know why was she stonewalling the "Troopergate" investigation when she initially wanted "transparancy". And when she talked about giving the government back to the people, Biden should have countered by asking her if that meant firing librarians for not banning books and forcing women to bear children to rapists.

It seemed he didn't understand what was at stake here. The Democrats could have and should have put this one away and left the Republicans scrambling for the lifeboats. Unfortunately he did what the Democrats tend to do--which is to play nice and assume the American people are smart enough to see through the bullshit folksiness that Sarah Palin played on.

However Joe and Jane Six-Pack--who got us eight years of Bush--aren't that bright and they bought every wink, smile and sly dig at Biden. They bought the soccer game image rather than the images of families having to leave their homes because of foreclosures and the loss of retirement funds. They bought the non-answers and the evasiveness.

Sarah Palin is NOTHING like me and for that I am eternally grateful. She is an embarassment to women everywhere and spits on everything the feminist movement at its fundamental core stands for.

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Republicans: Morally and Spiritually Bankrupt
Posted by: Digital Gentleman on Oct 3, 2008 9:35 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Palin did well last night, only because the expectations were sooooo low. However, her performance (complete with the smiling and winking b.s, I wanted to scream..."You're not at a friggin' beauty pageant!") showed the complete lack of honesty and thoughtfulness typical of today's Republican Party.

Did anyone catch Palin's statement about wanting to expand the constitutional authority of the VP???? Holy sh*t!!!!!!!!! Combined with McCain's comment earlier in the week about wanted to be a dictator, we may well be looking at the actual end of democracy in the USA. They must be defeated at all costs.

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I teach rhetoric...
Posted by: RegK on Oct 3, 2008 9:44 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and I can tell you objectively that Joe Biden won this in every category--ethos (speaker's character), pathos (connecting emotionally), and logos (substance). I also add another category: argos (clarity). He won that one too. Her sentences were at times so garbled I had no idea what she was saying!

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What is winking about, by the way? I'll tell you:
Posted by: RegK on Oct 3, 2008 9:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
winking a gesture that indicates that the person winking is being deceptive. Her winking gave her away. She is a liar and she announced it with her gesture or tic or whatever it was.

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Let's get our own debates - www.thirdpartyticket.com
Posted by: CUnknown on Oct 3, 2008 10:02 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A mass-fundraising day ("moneybomb") is scheduled for next Wednesday (the 8th). Go to www.thirdpartyticket.com and sign up to take part in this historic event in support of 3rd parties. It doesn't matter which 3rd party or independent candidate you donate to (Nader, Green party, Libertarian party, etc), all of it will be counted as going towards the moneybomb. We can rack up $millions$ for 3rd parties and send a message that we demand democracy. We want more choices on the ballot!

Even better, there will be a debate following the moneybomb, live with video on the internet at www.breakthematrix.com! All major 3rd party candidates have agreed to participate - Nader, Barr, McKinney, and Chuck Baldwin. We don't need the mainstream media anymore, they can't deny us debates with 3rd party candidates anymore!

Please sign up at www.thirdpartyticket.com to take part in this historic day!

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Enough is Enough!
Posted by: cin on Oct 3, 2008 10:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To begin, there are parts of each contributors' comments that I share.
I do feel that sadly, for some individuals who need to believe that "she is one of them", she "performed" well. To hold any political figure to such a low standard for "success" is not only sad and frightening. As a woman, it is incredibly insulting, especially in such dire times.But, for those who already needed to like and support her, they got what they wanted.... As I watched with my family, I was particularly struck by my 13 year old daughter's perception of her blatant phoniness and her continuing to make digs and take pot shots, while always smiling and winking...! We all felt that it was insulting to have to deal with such transparent characterized folksy dialogue, that to me felt mocking of genuine working people. She was a parody participating in a real event. The image of a talking doll with pull strings. like my own "chatty Cathy doll" from childhood felt right on. I felt like she was playing Tina Fey playing Sarah Palin...?!
I agree that the real test of whether we were dealing with a "Steppford Wife" or a thinking, feeling individual, came when Joe Biden began to choke up when talking about the pain he experienced during his family's tragedy. Palin never skipped a beat. She kept that smile plastered on her face and went right on with her word salad, totally oblivious to the genuine expressions of feeling going on right beside her. It chilled me, and yet there are actually undecided voters who were swayed towards her because of the "pageant-like performance" she was more than capable of delivering.... That speaks to just how numbed and dumbed down our culture and country has become. The marketing of "America" to Americans continues in overdrive. Palin is a compilation of the Reagan and Bush dynasty method for manipulating the masses. The only things missing, (or was it)from that debate was the bulge in her silk suit, where a voice transmitter prompting her, via W's debate, would be planted!
When will Enough be Enough?

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» sociopathic Posted by: foreverhope
» RE: sociopathic Posted by: litebug
» RE: sociopathic Posted by: lenioui
Rosa Clemente won the debate
Posted by: DaBear on Oct 3, 2008 10:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just listened to DN!'s broadcast and Rosa Clemente of the GPUS' McKinney/Clemente ticket won. All the accurate, proper, and progressive answers. Joe? Nah, not so much. Palin is a tool, who gives a shit about that dumbassed puppet. Anyone who likes her isn't worth spit either.

You know, just once I want to see an owning class candidate on teevee say the words LIE and LIAR when the Republikaaner lies and behaves as a liar.

That's courage. And so far, I have yet to see a Dim show me courage.

Rosa won. Period.

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Sarah
Posted by: foreverhope on Oct 3, 2008 10:34 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
She would make an adequate local news anchor. Have you EVER heard ANYONE spew so many words without saying anything at all? She talks better shit than anyone I've ever heard, and I've had to hear quite a few. Sarah sucks the air out of the room, and she uses too many words to fill up the empty space behind her fake eye glasses.

I feel sorry for her kids, especially her down's baby.

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Who won? It better be somebody sane!
Posted by: luzmejor on Oct 3, 2008 10:34 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
By the time Palin started using that crooning coaxing voice and the folksy verbiage, I realized that we have somebody in the running that has no ethics (amoral) and is also psychopathic. Whatever she has that passes for emotion is faked.

She truly has the belief (despite the facts)that she alone is the force that is making the world turn.

She wouldn't know a fact if she fell over it. Even then, she would not care.

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» gagging Posted by: foreverhope
This comment says it all...
Posted by: buffeliscious on Oct 3, 2008 10:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"In a way, people buy politicians the same way they buy brands. Do you purchase Crest or Colgate or Tom's of Maine because you know exactly which ingredients (zinc citrate trihydrate, hydrated silica) do what (fight tartar, whiten enamel)? Or do you pluck the tube from the shelf because you trust it will do the job?"

This is actually what's wrong with our politics -- it's the dumbed down America syndrome -- and only through that filter can Palin be said to have "won" by avoiding questions and putting on a show. She's the flashy box of toothpaste with the pretty models on the front. More Americans need to read the labels on their toothpaste boxes and know what each of the ingredients do. In politics, they look for the facade that falsely instills them with trust and then they wonder why their candidate fails to deliver. It's not surprising that funding for education in this country was diverted into military spending. The stupider we are the more we despise educated people like Obama/Biden and just love the down homey charm of McCain/Palin. For shame, America!

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Dems Need to Stop Acting Like a Bunch of Wimps!
Posted by: Ledhed on Oct 3, 2008 10:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Are we so conditioned that we've settled for surpassing "low expectations"? If that was Hillary making crash course meetings with international leaders, crash course debate practices and DUMB comments about seeing Russia from her backyard, she would have absolutely been hung from the cross upside down and crucified. And I'm no fan of Hillary. Everybody is so afraid and tip toing that WE are suffering! Since the Re-thugs are so good at instilling fear of attacks- the Dems need to step it up and start instilling fear of losing everything we worked our ASSES for! And I mean put it out there like a Cat. 5 hurricane! Blow those numb nuts out of the water!

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» Yes, thank you, Ledhed... Posted by: buffeliscious
What debate?
Posted by: muliphen on Oct 3, 2008 10:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do you mean the Sarah Palin Joe Biden dueling stump speeches that was on the tube last night?

Palin is a bad joke. Actually a very scary bad joke. She exists on the Republican ticket for one reason and one reason only, that is to solidify the wing nut base of the party. It isn't what she said it is what she left out of her performance that bothers me the most. Her views on women's right to choose, sleeping with dinosaurs, sex ed and contraception etc. scare the hell out of me. Her remark regarding the Veep job and a Constitutional ammendment to give more power to the Vice President were the only thing she said that hadn't been rehearsed. And that was the scariest remark of all.

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» RE: What debate? Posted by: stopthemaddness2
The non-debate
Posted by: skibum on Oct 3, 2008 10:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Have you ever tried to have an intelligent conversation with a born-again fundamentalist? This is exactly what she sounded like last night. All she can do is recite memorized talking points. Big smile, so absolutely sure of everything she says, sure she sounds convincing... she's totally brainwashed. It is utterly frustrating to debate these people. They have no ability to think for themselves or entertain any opposing ideas. This is why she didn't answer any questions - SHE CAN'T!
Far worse than dubya.

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I think I've learned more...
Posted by: buffeliscious on Oct 3, 2008 10:51 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
from all the comments posted here than from all the pundits compiled in this article combined, who mostly all felt they needed to be "fair" to Sarah Palin and give her credit "for not screwing up." Bulls**t! This person is gonna be in the White House during a time of war! They need to do a lot more than not srew up! Come on, people of the press! Do your jobs!

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The real "Joe Six-pack" was not fooled
Posted by: CA NOW on Oct 3, 2008 10:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Great post by Mia Nutick on the real "Joe Six-pack" and why s/he isn't who the Republicans think: http://www.canow.org/canoworg/2008/10/hey-there-joe-s.html

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Was it just me...
Posted by: thedigitalfrenzy on Oct 3, 2008 10:56 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
or did the "gee shucks" schtick that that empty vessel called Palin shat all over that stage last night. I cannot understand what people see in her.

Empty. Vapid. Myopic.

When McCain wins, its going suck. And as with 4 years ago, you voting people will be stuck with another religious wingnut, oil driven, white, greedy, scumbag Whitehouse.

Canada is going to get quite full I think.

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» The whistle is about to blow Posted by: surfreality
What?
Posted by: helenb1azes on Oct 3, 2008 11:02 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So before you put too much stock in pundits' post-debate analyses, which usually include the dissecting and fact-checking of words, think for a minute about the times you've gained someone's trust. Was it because of something you said? Or because of how you said it?

No, it was because of what I have done in the past--my track record. This woman has a lousy track record.

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utter b.s., Heather
Posted by: helenb1azes on Oct 3, 2008 11:04 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This debate wasn't lost or won based on anything verbal. It was won on nonverbal communication. And the winner was Sarah Palin.

You don't call yourself a pundit, do you? Is this what you call analysis? I hope not.

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Wink, wink
Posted by: Monmon on Oct 3, 2008 11:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Never trust a winker. Winker = liar. And OMG, Palin looks like Dickey Cheney and says NUCULAR like Bushit. She is a quick study all right. Two jokers wrapped into one package. Be afraid - be very afraid!

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My Only Hope
Posted by: Ledhed on Oct 3, 2008 11:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm not convinced that voting either way will not bring about any "substantial" change. However, being a young single woman who 10 years ago, was only concerned with glamour mags to now being enlightened on the middle east crisis, Americans need to start beating them at their own game. Stop watching network news, and start reading journalistic periodicals. After all they're dependant on ratings. Write to your senators with real substantial facts rather than general questions. Start buying free trade products. Let the neo-cons duke it out on the Hill.

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honeybell4
Posted by: kmcd on Oct 3, 2008 11:22 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I saw the debate last night and was steaming the entire time -- Palin is still the reckless decision that McCain made to distract Americans from the real issues -- and the fact that she was even on that stage rattles me...her mock folksie-ness, her scripted answers, her lies and misinformation (the NATO general in Afghanistan is McKiernan, not McClellan...we're not at pre-surge levels in Iraq) -- it's all a ruse.

It was like watching Sarah Palin act like Tina Fey acting like Sarah Palin.

The whole thing was a ruse. She didn't debate -- she had a set of answers -- and she stuck to them -- and by the end of it, it was comic in its robitic nature. On reflection and the more you watch her, Palin kind of has some weird Stepford Wife-thing going on. And she has a Cheney-chip in her.

Never-the-less, if McCain is elected, Palin is literally a breath away from the Presidency of the United States -- and she's still completely
unqualified. Palin has a one in 6or7 chance of becoming president should McCAin get elected due to his age and geneal health.

The only real truth she said last night was that she wants to expand the powers of the Vice President -- she's not only like Bush, she's the female-version of Cheney! That's frightening! Palin not only thinks that she's qualified, she's going on national television and telling Americans that she agrees with Cheney that the Vice President should get more power. Are you kidding me?!!!

I'll take Barak Obama's 25+ years of experience over John McCain's last 25+ years of experience -- and Palin's experience is nothing but a joke.

Last night was a theatre -- and it was a farce.

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They did what they had to do
Posted by: Democritus on Oct 3, 2008 11:23 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No, Palin didn't "win" any debate, as Heather Gehlert asserted. This was not a debate. This was a showcase. Palin had to go out there to show everyone that she was a spunky, sexy, soccer mom who could smile, wink, smirk, point her finger and say what her handlers had taught her to say (although she usually didn't say it in response to a question). Biden had to show he was knowledgeable, statesmanlike, and not condescending to a woman who was so friendly that she asked at the start if she could call him, "Joe." They both accomplished what they had set out to do.

As I watched all the way to the bitter end, its having been obvious from the start what would transpire--that Biden would attack McCain's record, and Palin would play the cute, down-home maverick--I began to get the surreal feeling that I was watching Saturday Night Live, and that was Tina Fey up there talking to Leno. Hey, maybe it was Tina Fey. Then, as she looked straight into the camera with those dark, blank eyes, talking in her folksy twang, I got the feeling that it was the Frances McDormand character in Fargo playing one of the Stepford wives.

Sarah Palin, though appallingly ignorant about anything that matters, is really a clever girl. She mispronounced 'nuclear' over and over as 'nucular'. Did this show she was a real dummy? I don't think so. That's because at least once she stumbled and pronounced the word correctly. Then I thought, this is code. She knows how to pronounce the word, but she wants everyone to know that she's on the side of George W. Bush, poor man. She wants her fundamentalist, Bible-thumping, tongues-speaking base to know that she's really on their side, that if ever she became President she'd repeal Roe v. Wade in a heartbeat by appointing anti-choice judges to the Supreme Court.

Finally, I was reminded of the witch Eos in Wilbur Smith's book, The Quest. The witch is beautiful, but her siren song causes men to succumb to her wishes. In reality the witch is a giant insect intent on destroying their souls. You betcha, vote for McCain and me and we'll nuke all our enemies and screw the poor, and we'll shower all those wonderful words on you--peace,freedom, democracy, and the American way--as we surge to victory.

Debate it was not It was a reality show designed to appeal to male prurient interests. There's just something about Sarah Palin that keeps drawing your eyes toward her in some sort of horrible fascination.

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» RE: They did what they had to do Posted by: jonestown kool-aid
» RE: They did what they had to do Posted by: Democritus
McPalin--The Republican Achilles Heel
Posted by: Yam on Oct 3, 2008 11:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I saw the debate and I heard nothing different...same old republican talking points. Very well rehearsed tho. As a woman I felt like she was flirting with the audience, constantly winking...she even blew a kiss. She is a woman who has relied on her looks her whole life to get by, and it has worked. She is an insult to women who are intelligent and work hard (and are still working) to get where they are.

I found it interesting that in a very professional environment, she used slang very often. God forbid, Gwen, Barack, or Michelle said something that could be even considered 'ghetto' the pundits would be all over it.

I thought in this nation we relied on education as a means of furthering our ourselves? She sounds very UN-educated, even after 6 years and 5 colleges! What a waste! A VP should not have a microscopic view of this country; Palin views the USA through AK eyes...AK is not a microcosm of the USA. Does she even know what that means? I doubt it...that's her achilles heel; she knows nothing!

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A Moderator's Role
Posted by: ciara2248@aol.com on Oct 3, 2008 12:03 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have to say, I am dismayed at the job Gwen did as moderator. What did she "moderate"? They might as well have had questions written out on poster board, set a timer, and called it done. I understand that there were to be no follow-up questions, no direct debating. So be it. But to not make the two candidates STICK TO THE QUESTION?? It makes a sham out of it, in my opinion, because Sarah basically used her time to do a litany of 2-min sound bites on the subjects of her choice...blatantly ignoring the question asked. I think that was wrong. I do not understand why Gwen didn't make both Palin and Biden stick to the subject. Seems like the point of the exercise.

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A GREAT BIG THANK YOU TO KATIE COURIC
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Oct 3, 2008 12:07 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We got to see Palin for exactly what she was. Without Couric's nice quiet approach with very easy questions and patiently listening to answers (?) with a very polite followup followed by Sarah's babbling we really wouldn't know enough to make a judgement on last night's debate. Sarah Palin's performance last night was a 'performance' as in theater. She's a good actress. But she makes my hair hurt. Thanks, ANNA

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Meta-Commentaries
Posted by: Mitchel Cohen on Oct 3, 2008 12:16 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is so energy-sucking to read even these mostly intelligent comments about the debate, because they're all about form: Who won? Who will the American people think won? Who was able to parry the other's tricks?

We've turned politics into Family Feud, where you have to guess what you think others are guessing about what others have guessed.

So Joe Biden is never really taken to task on his actual legislative record. He has "experience," but experience doing what? He can "walk across the aisle" to work with Republicans .... But no one asked him, on what?

No one challenges him on his crucial defense of the credit card companies, and how this feeds into the current debt crisis.

No one challenges him on his support for The War On Drugs -- and all that means for the huge incarceration rate in the U.S. (What is it, now, 2.5 million actually in prison at any given time, and twice that figure in the courts, on probation or parole?)

No one challenges him on his and Obama's statements concerning the "Surge" in Iraq -- a euphemism for a large expansion of the war; or on his quotes supporting Bush around WMDs in Iraq; or of his proud support for bombing the hell out of Yugoslavia under the pretext of "defending Kosovo."

No one challenges him (or Palin) on their statements in favor of "Clean Coal" -- as if such a thing is possible without serious environmental calamity; carbon-trading and offsets, and why their support for such schemes is just a free-market way of destroying the earth and letting them get away with it; genetic engineering of agriculture; liquid coal, stored under the ground and polluting drinking water; agro-fuels, exported from countries whose people are starving but who have turned their lands into cash-crops for SUVs elsewhere; mass use of pesticides; nuclear power plants, which they both support -- oh, my god, that's their solution? That's what's in store for us? As the saying goes: "Better active today than radioactive tomorrow."

and, No one challenges either of them on their support for the $700 billion bailout of billionaires on Wall Street, except to ask, "What programs will you have to cut as a result?" Why not provide immediate relief to those facing foreclosure or eviction, instead of to the banks foreclosing them, evicting them? And, what about forcing open the corporate books for all to review, if they're going to be bailed out by our tax dollars?

On the other hand, if I hear Sarah Palin use the word "Maverick" one more time, I'm gonna call up James Garner and ask him what he, the original t.v. "Maverick", thinks about McCain stealing his alter-ego (Rockford files be damned).

Parry ... thrust; thrust ... parry. Instead of worrying so much about "what will play for the American people" -- who, I think, are far far far more intelligent than liberal New Yawkers give'm credit for (people don't know what to do, we feel impotent, helpless, blown about by forces beyond our control or influence and so lamely grab onto any straw that's offered) -- how about focusing on the substance, on the policies being argued, and forcing the candidates to go into depth on them? (I know, that's why Palin and the Republicans wanted each answer limited to 1.5 minutes; imagine if she had to keep repeating the word "Maverick" for 3 minutes at a clip!)

The way punditry -- including comments here -- works is to comment on how one thinks the comments would play on others. Hey, what are we, chopped tofu? What about what we want?

I'm sick of the Meta-Comments -- comments about how other comments might play, regardless of their content. It's all a big game -- What's the score!? -- Place yer bets, now!

Mitchel Cohen
Brooklyn Greens / Green Party

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Biden Won, Palin Lost
Posted by: allyourbasearebelongtous on Oct 3, 2008 1:11 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Imagine having the bar set soooo low that you just have to show up and not look stupid. You don't even have to do an especially good job -- you just have not make such an obvious error that you look stupid as a result. That's Palin but I have to remind folks that that was GWB and Reagan too. This election is ours to win or lose but it can be lost and it can be stolen. Make sure you are registered to vote and get out and vote! This is one of the most important elections in modern times -- all the more so because of how 2000 and 2004 turned out. We did win 2000 and probably 2004 as well. We have to win 2008 convincingly enough that it does NOT get stolen. 4-8 more years of the same old crap and the country and the planet get seriously close to the point of no return. If you can wade through the book Six Degrees or if you already have, you'll know what I mean.

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Barnum and Baily and American Myth
Posted by: blackie4aces on Oct 3, 2008 1:11 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To call these duets "debates" is as ridiculous an exercise in semantics as calling professional wrestling a competitive sport. When "winning" points is discussed in terms of winks, this or that body language, or some "supposed connection" to some idealized mass "out there," this can never be considered anything more than a performance of circus clowns. But then, when has American politics not been a circus for memory-challenged self-obsessed fools?

I can remember one national election in my lifetime that was a serious affair. The time was 1968 and American youth was being killed in the thousands. Lots of people in those days were not afraid to hit the streets and risk being hit themselves by police. I remember Chicago. I remember Kent State. I remember Bobby Kennedy and Martin King. One did not need body language to know where they stood. There were leaders at that time and place. I also remember what happened to them.

The term spin had not come into vogue then. There were no polite distinctions between
reality (fact) and propaganda; truth and lies. Hubert Humphrey who had up until his vice-presidency had had a long and genuine career of public service and liberal empathetic politics chose to align himself with the war administration of Johnson and paid the price. The issues in 1968 were about life and death, and death won (for another twenty thousand Americans and countless Vietnamese), but it was in every sense a real fight.

The conflict over national policy was rejoined in 1972 and the forces of horror and manipulation again triumphed, only to finally be done in over relatively trivial excesses of criminality by Richard Nixon. That the horror and dishonor of the Vietnam War did not lead to his downfall, but rather a series of petty crimes, says a lot about America.

Despite all the ballyhoo about the great American Middle Class, the American Middle Class does not give a shit about anyone but themselves as long as they are kept air-conditioned and "safe;" as long as the sons and daughters of somebody else, the sons and daughters of the poor and the working class are doing the dying.

That is where we are. That is the womb of the politics of the "wink and nod," the politics of criminal spin and the resistance to any thoughtfulness. It is, at heart, a resistance to contemplate insecurity. And it is insecurity that will always be maintained in any capitalist society as the major tool in an arsenal of manipulation and control.

Of course, the bailout of Wall Street was passed after a little show of congressional indignation was, like anther famous street, Broadway, put out for public consumption. Can anyone be surprised? Did anyone even remotely suspect that it would not be. And, truly, isn't that exactly what mostly everyone wanted because it was a bailout for themselves as well. If it works for everyone though it well might not; these things never work out for the poor, but they don't figure in the calculations anyway.

The big criminals will get away like rats fleeing a sinking ship, but rats with the rights to salvage, which is, to use an old cliche, sad but true. At least the passengers in steerage will have a lifeboat or two on which to cling if they know how to swim and can find them in the darkness.

Satan's Neutral Corner
satansneutralcorner@yahoo.com

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» RE: Barnum and Baily and American Myth Posted by: jonestown kool-aid
Maverick?
Posted by: allyourbasearebelongtous on Oct 3, 2008 1:17 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maverick? I knew Maverick well. Maverick was a great comedy western tv show on tv when I was a child. And Sarah Palin, you are no maverick. You neither, John McCain.

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Palin is another narcissist/sociopath
Posted by: litebug on Oct 3, 2008 1:17 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Narcissistic Personality Disordered Sociopaths have been running this country for at least the past 8 years and we see the destruction and ruin they have left in their wake. Those of us who have had to deal with this type of person in our private lives know exactly how they operate and how utterly destructive they are. Bush is a text book case and so is Palin. Trust this type of person at your peril, either in your private life or in the public sphere. They can be very charming, especially on a superficial level or at the outset of a relationship. But over time, patterns in their behavior will emerge, such as being chronic "users", and the old saying, "familiarity breeds contempt", starts to ring true. They have an unerring instinct for identifying who they can and can't control. They will hate anyone they can't control. It is amusing that they, themselves, are often quite prone to manipulation by more talented narcissists as they are especially vulnerable to flattery and praise. Smarter sociopaths, like Cheney and Rove, are easily able to control less intelligent sociopaths, like Bush and Palin, through praise, flattery and the more tangible perks of power.

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» RE: Palin is another narcissist/sociopath Posted by: stopthemaddness2
Serious analysis like this gives debates credibility
Posted by: spanky on Oct 3, 2008 1:47 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Pres and VP debates are pure farce, charade, mockery. The candidates, moderator, format, questions... it's all a carefully orchestrated stage show designed to give the appearance of choice.

Where are the 3rd party candidates? They are the only ones who are willing and able to bring any honesty to the debates. Nader may not be perfect, but can you imagine what an entirely different spectacle it would be if he were there speaking truth to power?

---
"We are the rogue state"

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» "We are a rogue state" Posted by: Cathyc
Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
In response to Heather Gehlert
Posted by: using on Oct 3, 2008 2:41 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ok..you are right....Most people do not have the kind of intelligence that allows for hearing more than 10% of what is being said. That is why commericals repeat over and over the same few lines, so the American people will internalize and buy their products. Therefore, doesn't Biden's passionate repetitions make sense. And didn't Palin, with the lack of vision and plans meant to bring the kind of change to America that will benifit not just the rich but the middle class force him into those same repetitions. And who amongst us does not feel pain and anger watching what they have done to our Constitution, the environment and our economy.

And what are the Republicans offering.... a cute, flirty, spunky, Shirely Temple socker mom doll to present the plans that will solve the problems of our country and the world. And why? because what in the way of CHANGE do they have to sell the American people -- so they are trying to entertain us out of noticing what is their own best interests. How charmingly Palin teased Biden about going back to the Bush record. WEll, what could he do...after all what were those two running on: cuts for the rich. and no matter what arguement they get inreturn they repeat at the next opportunity the same half truths. Yes, lets privatize social security and take away big ticket spending for programs that will benifit the hard working middle class. Yes, no socolistic programs for the middle class just for the rich -- well they are right that is not socialism -- the rich grabbing the last dollar out of the hands of the poor, that is not socialism -- that is dictatorship.
What did she have to offer, drilling in Alaska. How many times did Biden have to contrast what we use with how much oil we have to drill, and what the cost is to our environment and good health, for Americans to udnerstand that drilling is not more than a temporary fix. But hey, she kept peddling her single digit, charming "drill baby drill" half-truths. And why should she be upset ...after all, in Alaska she gives every person back over $3,000 per yeasr from the oil companies drilling, which to her family means $22,000.
Manufacturing beliefs is alot easier than seperating the truth that will work from the pieces that will hurt us. Imagine how wonderful she is -- she didn't fall on her face. Now how much can we lower the bar for presidnet of the UNited States.
She was well scripted and did manage to make her words mostly move people's understanding away from the harsh reality of of the events being played out in America today. And he was forced to seperate over and over again..the truth from the lies otherwise...look how easily she confused you away from the reality of listening for what is in our best interests and to her delivery. .
In conclusion, a little anger at the quick sand we find our way of life and our constitution being sucked down into, is well justified.
I hope none of us have to eat Palin's jokes......when they privatize social security and your old age pension ends up in the hands of the same types of people who are breaking the piggy banks of America yet once again.

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"Unitary Executive Theory" Archaic?
Posted by: lrw on Oct 3, 2008 2:59 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
“. . . even if he went over some heads once or twice, like when he talked about the somewhat archaic ‘unitary executive’ theory pushed by the Federalist Society and conservative legal scholars”

Joshua!?! Somewhat archaic? The Unitary Executive theory has been the driving premise behind the policies of the Bush/Cheney regime for the past eight years, and its complete embrace by this administration (in spite of numerous rejections by the courts—including the Supreme Court—and by Congress) is the single-most important issue of this election. It’s certainly a bigger issue than whether we “can handle four more years of hearing ‘nukular’ in the nation’s highest offices!” Discussion of the "somewhat archaic" Unitary Executive Theory was particularly salient given Palin's expressed desire to EXPAND the powers of the Vice President.

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» Think about the audience Posted by: Joshua Holland
RICHEST HOCKEY MOM IN THE USA---Read ALASKA NEWSPAPER They tell the real deal on PALIN
Posted by: stopthemaddness2 on Oct 3, 2008 3:02 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
She rehearsed. She was unscripted and unrehearsed when Katie Couric interviewed and Gibson. The real deal stood up and stood out. That has not changed. She is lacking in real substance. Simple as that! Blowing the audience kisses and purposely sluuurrring her words and dropping "g"s to sound folksy, I call it sicksey! Todd and Palin are worth 1.2 million. That's a lot of money even with five children in the tiny town of Wasilla, and with that type of money the standard of living is well to do upper class in a town that small and a state that has more MOOSE than people per square mile. WAKE UP FOLKS Things are too serious to be fooled and mislead by winks and remarks of Joe six pack and trying to relate to common middle class folks. She is not on that page. She clearly is on her own page. WAKE UP PLEASE!!

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» An Irish slice and dice Posted by: foreverhope
Wow! I've just watched the Biden / Palin 'debate' on Youtube...
Posted by: Cathyc on Oct 3, 2008 3:19 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... well, not all of it, because the first five minutes or so were enough to tell me I was watching some kind of weird circus act.

Palin came across (to me) as a little girl (in cornered-rate mode) who HAD to get her prescribed lines right, or else she just wouldn't survive!

But there ya go. That's America for ya!

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THREE (3) THINGS THAT SHOULD SCARE THE HELL OUT OF YOU REGARDING PALIN'S DEBATE-
Posted by: stopthemaddness2 on Oct 3, 2008 3:28 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1) She still does not understand and could not clearly state what the role of Vice President is supposed to be. When off her script she was lost and had to repeat her REHEARSED LINES.

2) She never answered the question on Deregulation, and how it relates directly with McCain and his voting record. Didn't we just give Wall Street $700Billion dollars??????

3) She dismissed Joe Bidden's pain when he mentioned his wife dying in the accident. No connect. And she used her baby as a PROP, picking him up and patting him then handing him to the youngest daughter and turning on her heels without another glance towards the baby. There is something inherently lacking in her. A ruthlessness exists.

HERE'S THE MATH: ADD THAT SUM WITH THIS SUM:

Add that up with her dislike of gays, and her lack of knowledge in foreign affairs, her inappropriate flirting and winking during a time when this nation is in serious trouble at home an abroad, her refusal to answer the real hard core questions put to her, her proud photo session holding an assault weapon with a telescopic view, cocked for the cameras, and the last factor to this equation SHE WILL BE A HEART BEAT AWAY FROM THE OVAL OFFICE/ AND THE NUCLEAR NUMBERS AS COMMANDER IN CHIEF AT A TIME WHEN THIS COUNTRY HAS A MULTITUDE OF ECONOMIC TURMOIL what does it equal?

ANSWER: SUM OF TOTAL ECONOMIC ARMAGEDON

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TWO WORD ON PALIN
Posted by: HPipe on Oct 3, 2008 3:29 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
CANNED SPAM

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Lilly
Posted by: Lilly on Oct 3, 2008 3:54 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Form overtakes substance?" If you are teaching a course and set out the requirements for passing the course (lectures, readings, labs, paper, exam) and then a student says she's not going to do that stuff, she's going to paint a picture of the classroom instead, this is acceptable? Try this next time you have a broken bone or appendicitis. Don't insist that your doctor address the problem surgically. Tell him it's OK to change the rules and just say something attractive.

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» RE: Lilly Posted by: stopthemaddness2
IS AMERICA STUPID?
Posted by: stopthemaddness2 on Oct 3, 2008 4:03 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Joe won this debate. If you gage it on content, knowledge of material, substance, and the ability to answer direct questions.

If you wage the debate on cutesy, folksy, and winking and repeating circular answers that were reheased, and telling the moderator that would not be answered, and if blowing kisses and winking mean the most to you, and you'd vote for Homer Simpson for president, then Palin won.

She scares the hell out of me.

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Voting in the United States
Posted by: chlamor on Oct 3, 2008 4:22 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Voting in the United States isn't about "democracy"—it's about perpetuating the illusion of democracy.

I am told I should vote Democrat, simply to get rid of the Republicans. Or I should vote for whatever candidate is opposing the incumbent, simply to throw the bums out. All of this, of course, is simply a well-oiled shell game, for as the historian Carroll Quigley wrote, there is no difference between the parties, they are essentially cut from the same cloth. According to the elite who run things behind the scenes, “the two parties should be almost identical, so that the American people can ‘throw the rascals out’ without leading to any profound or extensive shifts in policy… It should be possible, to replace one party with the other party which will pursue, with new vigor, approximately the same basic policy.”

"What is the ballot? It is neither more nor less than a paper representative of the bayonet, the billy, and the bullet. It is a labor-saving device for ascertaining on which side force lies and bowing to the inevitable. The voice of the majority saves bloodshed, but it is no less the arbitrament of force than is the decree of the most absolute of despots backed by the most powerful of armies."

~ Benjamin R. Tucker

We need to remind ourselves of Albert Einstein’s admonition: “we can’t solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.” Trying to reform the political process makes no more sense than trying to reform the carnivorous appetites of jungle beasts. If it is your desire to put an end to the violent, destructive, corrupt, and dysfunctional nature of government, stop wasting your time by focusing on the current management of the system.

Better to place this action in an institutional context. The forces placed on the elected person by the state machinery and pressures from big business dictate the outcome. Your vote is meaningless. You can argue all you want that "We need to keep up the pressure to demand Politician______ needs to listen to ordinary citizens, not to business" and you will rot on the vine as your words disappear into the indifferent air.

There is a difference between the state and government. The state is the permanent collection of institutions that have entrenched power structures and interests. The government is made up of various politicians. It is the institutions that have power in the state due to their permanence, not the representatives who come and go. We cannot expect different politicians to act in different ways to the same pressures. However, this is all ignored by the voting political consumer who wishes Politician______ was more a socialist, green, populist etc. and could ignore the demands of the dominant class in society while in charge of one part of its protector and creature, the state.

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its sad
Posted by: lil ole me on Oct 3, 2008 4:29 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Biden knew the facts, Palin winked, Biden knows the law, Palin smiled, Biden has the experience, Palin played cutesy.
If this is what the American people want for a VP. we deserve what we get.

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The country...
Posted by: Pirate1 on Oct 3, 2008 4:38 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is going to get exactly what it deserves if they elect the Republican ticket. The population has been SO dumbed down that looks and cutseyness masking more of the same will trump anything the Dems have. Obama talks change but agrees with McCain on almost everything of significance... from the wars to the bail-out. I recommend leaving the country because if you think things were bad under Bush/Cheney... wait til you live under McCain/Palin! Oil derrecks off every coastline, new nuclear plants and "clean coal" plants everywhere, curtailing all right to assembly, a draft to provide cannon fodder for wars in the middle east, south Asia ans South America and Africa and a depression to end all with breadlines and Blackwater patrolling neighborhoods with shoot to kill orders.

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Let's review
Posted by: chlamor on Oct 3, 2008 5:09 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
McCain: "Let's bomb Iran"

Obama: "Let's invade Pakistan."

Palin: "Iraq is the central point in the War on Terror."

Biden: "Pakistan is the central point in the War on Terror"

All of the Above Candidates: "Let's increase military spending!"

Anyone who votes for these pigs pulls the lever in favor of Empire and continued imperialism.

What disgusting dog and pony show.

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Voter beware!
Posted by: wormfarmer on Oct 3, 2008 6:00 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can only hope that our divided, distracted, diverted populace does something other than
electing one of the corporate shills running, we’ve had 200 years to have a representative
government, and still have a corporate power structure that has run us into the ditch YET
AGAIN! Lets do something different this time, sheeple,
Vote Sanity, Vote Nader.

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the actual Bush/McCain comparison documented
Posted by: Betsy L. Angert on Oct 3, 2008 7:25 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dearest Heather Gehlert, Don Hazen, Joshua Holland, Markos Moulitsas Zuniga, Chris Bowers. and Christy Hardin Smith . . .

That was fun. I thank each of you for sharing your thoughts. I was riveted during the debate. I penned my fears the day before the two candidates took the stage. I never doubted that Sarah Palin would do well. I watched her recent television interviews, and saw her stumble. Still, I was sure she would not bumble with preparation. The Governor knows how to perform, and this forum would place her in the spotlight.

I was nervous for days as the nation anxiously awaited what could not be predicted. The particulars. I never imagined she would answer only the questions she asked of herself. In a hundred million years, I would not have expected her to request greater Executive powers than Dick Cheney has.
Sarah Palin; Formidable Force

The folksy demeanor . . . that was not a surprise. Ingenuous is Sarah's signature. I believe her "honesty" is meant to endear her. Apparently, the tactic worked. Republicans rallied. According to the Luntz Poll some Independents who had previously voted Democratic decided to vote for McCain after seeing Palin's presentation.

I was fascinated by her lack of knowledge on a singular subject. Past is indeed prologue. Sarah Palin asked Democratic Vice Presidential nominee Biden to "Say It Ain't So Joe." As much as the Delaware Senator might have wished to reassure the Alaskan Govern Palin, he could not. Senator Joseph Biden knew the record. He understood the history. The potential Vice President had experienced the hardships of the American people personally. Joe Biden bemoaned of what he knew too well.

I invite your review and reflection on the actual Bush/McCain comparison. Please read the debate discussion and the documentation. Then, decide for your self. Will McCain be the "change" America needs?

Say It Ain't So Joe; Past is Prologue

Betsy L. Angert
BeThink.org

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Vice Presidential behavior
Posted by: YouReapProsperity on Oct 3, 2008 7:36 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Palin seemed very nervous at first, calmed down and then went on a rant of campaign slogans and half-truth attacks. Like McCain, she would glance at Biden and robotically stare into the cameras as though prepped. Biden was more relaxed and specific. If you vote by emotion, Palin has you, if you vote for experience in a VP, Biden is more qualified.

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Will appeal to some who would have voted R anyway
Posted by: phindrup on Oct 3, 2008 7:48 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Watching from afar, and having run various businesses over the past 50 years I quit after about ten minutes. Had I been interviewing Palin for a receptionists job she wouldn’t have got that long.
Reminds me of years ago here in Australia when a solicitor friend, senior partner in one of NSW’s (state) biggest legal firms was speaking favourably of the then just elected leader of the Labor Party. That was until I asked: ‘ would you have him as front man of your firm?’
‘Christ no!’

It seems to be a decease common to both Australians and ‘Yanks’ to elect increditably stupid people!
She will appeal to some of those who have no idea of what skills the job requires.
I’d not vote for McCain under any circumstances, but I’d not have voted for Hillary either! Obama? Only in a state where every vote counted and only to vote against McCain.
None of them understand what the problems with the US are. None of them understand just how despised the US is across the world, or why.

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Palin's shtick
Posted by: Collielady on Oct 3, 2008 8:23 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I thought Christy Hardin Smith nailed Palin's shtick with very descriptive words: "frenzied, hyperactive, filibuster, manic". I think that's why Palin is so hard to watch. She's nerve-wracking.

Regarding Heather Gehlert's comments, she said, "...if debates were won on smarts alone, John Kerry would be our sitting president." Correction: John Kerry isn't our sitting president because that election was stolen.

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Wink,Wink ;/
Posted by: Denver Dem on Oct 3, 2008 8:45 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's rare that I want to reach through my television to strangle a total stranger, but between the winking, almost creepy extended eye contact with the camera, "I doon't knooow how you fellas in Washington do things...", "hackey mams and Joe Six Packs", "we're Mavericks!"Women are harder on other women. She did not endear herself to women with that one. It was cheesy. And the almost total lack of answers to 90% of the questions made me want to pretty bad last night. She only connected with the Republican base. Everyone else saw an animatronic doll regurgitating talking points that weren't even responsive to the questions asked.

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» RE: Wink,Wink ;/ You betcha! Posted by: foreverhope
biden & palin
Posted by: katee on Oct 3, 2008 9:32 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Palin has no substance ,doesn't know facts,plays gotcha. She was only playing everyone to lower expectations.True she doesn't know very much but she knows how to try and fool everyone,she didn't fool me and she didn't fool very many other people either.Biden on the other hand did a magnificent job. He knew the facts and did a very good job of delivering the message. Palin is not respectful and untrustworthy. I cant wait until Obama wins and we can rid this country of McCain and Palin. This is a cancer that has spread and needs to disappear.

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Sarah Palin redefines MILF
Posted by: ProfAnarchy on Oct 3, 2008 11:10 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sarah Palin..

a Moose I'd Like to FORK (MILF)

She is the cutest little sock puppet for the GOP, Disaster Capitalism and Neo Imperialism.

This moose needs to be spayed. :-)

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Creepy Cocktail Waitress at No Rules Bar
Posted by: bessie on Oct 4, 2008 12:48 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lordy - Palin is nothing but some creepy cocktail waitress who shows up at a baseball game and announces that she only plays a two base game. Who's kidding who here? What a total fraud. All the winks in the world and the folksy stuff can't change the fact that Palin refused to answer any question or to follow the logical flow of the normal political conversation.
And forget any kind of honesty from this Palin person. She just lies and distorts her history almost every time she talks. What a national disgrace. When she announced that she wasn't going to answer any question, the 'debate' should have ended there. You'd have to presume that there were guidelines agreed upon by both parties and if Sarah has anything going for her it's her ability to throw out any convention if it gets in her way. Can you imagine how the 'hockey' or 'little league' Moms and Dads would react if some Palin type showed up and demanded a two base game? Polls seem to indicate that most voters aren't impressed with this trainwreck of a creepy cocktail waitress trying to, also, be a wholesome Mom, who can't answer the most simple question. It's not a question of Palin ever being 'ready', it's the fact that her intellectual, educational, and moral reserves are quite low. Seems like we are all now going to suffer from the last eight years at the "No Rules Bar". Hopefully, this really really creepy cocktail waitress will retreat into Moose burger country and hang onto that no rules bar with her bitterness.

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Palin's "Victory" in Iraq
Posted by: David Baker on Oct 4, 2008 12:51 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The first time the US won the (undeclared) war in Iraq was when Bush declared Mission Accomplished on May 1, 2003. The US then won the war a second time on December 13, 2003 when Saddam was captured.

Palin is now calling for a third "Victory" in Iraq. Does anybody (including her) have any idea what she is talking about?

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MCCAIN/PALIN CAMPAIGN ALERT!
Posted by: foreverhope on Oct 4, 2008 10:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At the moment McCain's campaign is meeting to discuss an adverstisement linking Barack to O. J. Simpson.

;-)

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» RE: MCCAIN/PALIN CAMPAIGN ALERT! Posted by: ProfAnarchy
I'll tell you who lost, the American people
Posted by: blogbooks on Oct 4, 2008 12:22 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It doesn't matter which party's figure head you select to rule you and carry out the agenda of the wealthy elite for the next 4 years.

Carry on with your circus side show they call an election though.

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Nudge, nudge, wink wink.
Posted by: cbmtrx on Oct 5, 2008 6:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've never seen a VP candidate wink at me. I don't ever want a VP candidate to wink at me again.

Grow the f**k up; this is not Sunday school.

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the record
Posted by: jc1234 on Oct 5, 2008 3:45 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
'winky' Palin could have put a CD on filled with sound bites and put it on random play. Biden though knowledgeable couldn't get a knockout in edgewise otherwise the crazy media would been all over it for 'being mean and sexist'.

The US is bankrupt and no one has addressed monetary policy (nor will they).

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no
Posted by: jc1234 on Oct 5, 2008 3:57 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
no one on the planet knows except psychos

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How Mc'Palin lost her date @ the Nat'l. Prom Debate
Posted by: rwcbanzai on Oct 5, 2008 10:33 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wow, what a sexy flirt with that ditsy kiss of death pass & asking Biden if she could call him Joe in that “gold digger” tease “tactic” of getting Biden to lower his guard with an insincere flirtatious first name verbal allure! It reminded me of that cutesy cheerleader act/game to gain the male votes so she could be the “Queen of the Prom”. It was as if her brokered hockey mom soft ball (sexist) rules meant she was the only one that could slap that puck (pun for the brokered moderator, “ I’ll bet-cha”, that hurt IFill)!
Oh, Biden’s sincere defense to those hard pucks was a chuckle/charming smile to a shrill sweet tart chucking sexist unapologetic “hard ball” pucks. Her contentious male blaming tone was uncomfortable, as well as her self righteous fundamentalist comments with folksy McCoy barbs. If this is how women act in Alaska, I can see why men live alone in that… that frigid cold. I could see old mean McCain’s “strategy” of REVENGE for his senior senate colleague (wait till he is Prez!), by sending his junior “governator” cheerleading oil tart to punch Biden below the debate belt & insult his over drilled sensibilities. Hasn’t the GoOP- over-drilled all of our SENSIBILITIES?
Palin’s “Popeye” wink demonstrated her “tactic” of a fool flirting with disaster; all the while, chucking raw spinach at the rest of u.s & burying IFell. As if her only ass-et is her cutsy secxatary image, she demonstrated that she was the “first class” FLIRT who knew how to manipulate young & old men with subliminal gestures of “Olive Oil” allure and winking facial taunts of flirting danger, in sexist tainted tones like “say it ain’t so Joe?”!
Now, that kind of act from a married mother with children offends my liberal sensibilities and lowers her status to a flirtatious “conservative” manipulator (remember the 30 year trickle down promise of Sir Ronald?) with no scruples & any idea of how to debate a serious bankrupt nation drowning in both streets! Her infantile cheerleader chants for “drill baby drill” and supposedly expertise with oil (her BROKERED DEAL) seemed only a hollow echo covering for the HOLE in her drilling philosophy, as well as her claim that only a “maverick” “Prisoner Of War” knows how to win a war from a DESK!
This ain’t no hockey mom; that “Pitt Bull… with lipstick” never answered the questions (ignoring the rules/laws of the debate & u.s.!) & kept claiming her oil credentials (as a BROKER!) to the point of worshipping Exxon Mobil and blessing their GREEDY hearts! It bothers me when lip smacking politicians say we hunger for oil & use the cloak of personal need & self-righteousness of greed as a force field to attack everyone’s sensibilities of her eco-idea of raping the environment (ANWR), just for her brokered (her tactic of “redistribution of wealth”) corporate greed!
In contrast, her debating skills fell flat (her “white flag of surrender” & DOUBLESPEAK) & her subliminal messages projected thru her “hungry eye” glasses, caused me to reciprocate in total disgust (media Orwellian GoOP manipulation!) by, just saying no… way - to dangerous minds & BIMBO flirting eyes!
In conclusion, O’Biden won by the sound facts of logic, debate & protocol. In contrast Mc’Palin lost all dignity with her flirtatious high school doublespeak (doubledy GoOP!) accentuated by that foolishly alluring/ deceiving “trust me” WINK! Please, tell me, who can trust two “Mavericks” when they are out of control? Only an independent fool like Benedict Arnold, or Sir Benedick Reagan!
(CA & CT [WINK!] “change is coming”) Please forgive my wrestling high school, collegiate tone! The Queen of the Prom is in England & will knight Mc'Palin after the damage to our democracy is done! It's payback for dumping King George in 1776! Royal Elephants never forget!

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SNL on the VP debate
Posted by: fanny666 on Oct 6, 2008 9:09 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
statedemocracy.org Equips you for the 2008 election
Posted by: moore on Oct 7, 2008 2:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dear Citizen:
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» RE: I SUCKED OBAMA'S COCK Posted by: orwellturns