COMMENTS: 186
Meltdown and Bailout: Why Our Economic System Is on the Verge of Collapse
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Posted by: mmckinl on Sep 22, 2008 1:01 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Find Your Senators and Representative by Zip Code
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» RE: We Must Stop This Bailout ; yes, and write your papers.
Posted by: Beck
» Like Italy under Mussolini
Posted by: citizenjoe
» RE: Like Italy under Mussolini
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» I have already sent proof of additional criminal activity sufficient for prosecution. Please READ...
Posted by: Prophit
» Cont-I have already sent proof of additional criminal activity -
Posted by: Prophit
» Goldman Sachs gets a woody
Posted by: weathered
» Beg to differ
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Beg to differ (You may diagree, but won't after reading The Shock Doctrine)
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Beg to differ (You may diagree, but won't after reading The Shock Doctrine)
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: We Must Stop This Bailout ... It Is Disaster Capitalism !
Posted by: LillianB
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Posted by: skoog5600 on Sep 22, 2008 3:36 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The reality is that the US is like a drug addict, and until it hits bottom "REAL" change will not occur. So it is best to wait until the crash and burn occurs and hope you don't take too big a hit on your lifestyle, but I suspect most will and are already feeling it. Then once the smoke clears start rebuilding your life.
Good luck!
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» How About Something New And Good?
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: How About Something New And Good?
Posted by: lkagy
» RE: How About Something New And Good?
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: How About Something New And Good?
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Good Idea, last chance...... self sufficiency and local crafts and manufacturing
Posted by: Prophit
» Labor Credits
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: It is too late ...
Posted by: Godfather89
» This is 100% a giant scam and fraud..... I have done research ...
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: Teller on Sep 22, 2008 3:54 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» The UGLY American!
Posted by: eeezzz
» Not all, and even if we were as you say, doesn't mean we deserved....
Posted by: Prophit
» Good idea, keep the hate between Americans going, its what....
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: blogoffanddie on Sep 22, 2008 4:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The American Dream is failing because the American Dream has become the world's nightmare. Until the American people learn this truth, nothing will change in America.
After years of bombardment from the mainstream media, the American populace has been dumbed-down and programmed to ignore the substance, realities and the issues of the world around them, and focus on the peripheral, pointless and more often than not, irrelevant sideshows created by a news media, government and economic system full of hucksters, corporate bootlickers and suck-ups.
America has become a circus and a nation of voyeurs and peeping Toms. It is slowly devolving into a mindless freak show that millions of simpletons can watch every night on their TV's.
As a result, the American people are too confused, distracted or lazy to look up from their TV sets to see or do anything about the destruction that is taking place.
http://blogoffanddie.wordpress.com
So long Dubya, we'll always have debt and Guantanamo
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» RE: the American people are too confused, distracted or lazy to look up from their TV sets
Posted by: jstepp590
» RE: the American people are too confused, distracted or lazy to look up from their TV sets
Posted by: ALANHESTER
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Posted by: Ottomatic on Sep 22, 2008 4:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Throw Gasoline on the Fire!
A 1,000 Billion Dollars for
A few WALL STREET Tycoons?
Bush said we were broke!
Vetoed giving 19 Billion Dollars to provide Health Care for 35 Million Poor Kids.
Is that Fair and Balanced?
Give the money directly to the people,save the struggling American families losing their homes by dropping their interest rates and forgiving their debt.
That's bottom up Economics:
For and by the People!
Start over.
Capitalism is a Failure.
Anything Based on Greed must FAIL!
Greed will screw you every time.
It is a negative Human Trait.
The Corporations have Plundered long enough.
Time to spend our money wisely on rebuilding America instead of
Lining their Pockets!
Stop the War!
Bring the Militia Home.
Become:
Self: Reliant, Sufficient and Efficient.
That's Freedom!
Go Local,
Go Now,
Go Big!
Surge
Purge
Update and
REBOOT!
Time to start over in a Totally New Direction The BUSH/Cheney/McCain Administration is a Total Failure.
All the Lies, Torture, Spying, Stealing, Secrecy, Dying and for what?
So they can Steal everything we own and mortgage America's future?
They made their Bed,
Let them Sleep in it!
Greed is Evil.
They are Evil!
They are corrupt.
Their Allegiance is to Their Class:
The Corporate Aristocracy!
Billionaires-R-US.
We have a totally different set of values.
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» RE: Right On
Posted by: phoolish
» RE: Burn, Baby, BURN! No Bailouts for Wall Street!
Posted by: jennmara
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Posted by: Col. Jackleg on Sep 22, 2008 4:30 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Self-Reliance Begins At Sunrise.
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: WWIII begins at home!
Posted by: nochicagoboys
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Posted by: Lauren on Sep 22, 2008 4:32 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why isn't this pig called a pig? You can call a pig a whore and put lipstick on it, but why would you want to...
Let's call this 'bail out' what it is, fraud. Fraud and money laundering. When we look at this activity as a conspiracy to defraud us, we have to look more closely at what is going on.
Anger - one letter short of danger, solution? Delay. But the brakes on this deal, the Wall street is not the most important thing, getting a grip on the housing situation is. The banks are doing everything bad to make it worse, they should be forced to deal with the people, let them keep their homes.
This plan is fraud on the largest scale EVER. A fire sale of dispossessed properties created a dependent class forever. The capitalists will rinse and repeat again and again until there is no middle class, all rich and slaves.
I think the bail out is running real fast in the WRONG direction. Don''t let them do it. They are all fools or corrupt and trying to ruin us.
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» VoteNoBailout.org - you can write your reps from this website
Posted by: fanny666
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Posted by: Mister_PsyOps on Sep 22, 2008 4:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
GW Bush and even his regime are not the core force behind this latest extortion racket bailout of what amounts to a Fascist economy. In case anyone hasn’t noticed yet, Bush can barely read a teleprompter without serious, devoted daycare. That does not mean Bush/Cheney and their assorted surface cronies are not criminals, however.
“Capitalism” with its free markets and competition does not exist anymore than “socialism” does with its collectivist rule. Sorry, but these are decoy labels meant to confuse and divide the gullible.
As I’ve said, what certainly does exist is Fascism via parasite organized corporate crime rule that has palmed off one Ponzi scheme over the next so that the economy of the globe is based on no more than a house of cheap smoke and mirrors designed to enrich monopoly corporate freeloaders at the bubbles of boom-bust contrived cycles and “socialize” the losses when unavoidable crashes come.
Put another way, insider Fascists grow rich for the pre-cooked bubbles and rape all Americans on the public nickel for planned crashes.
The practical reality and ground zero for this con is the giant private Ponzi trap “Federal Reserve” Corp (never federal and minus no reserves) built to soak wealth from the public as a virtual giveaway to the super-privileged.
It has gotten far worse, of course: about $1,240,000,000,000,000 worse at a bare minimum.
Insiders Paulson (ex CEO Goldman Sachs) and Bernanke are actually defending an over QUADRILLION dollar ($1,240 Quadrillion or over $1000 TRILLIONS) derivates casino style Wall Street bubble at what amounts to almost 20 times the entire earth’s global GDP (Bank of International Settlements figure). This is complete insanity where a write-down of 10% of the amount would bankrupt the U.S. and several other nations in a heartbeat. But the truth is, Organized Corporate Crime rule has already broken the globe. The criminals now want to putsch the results of all that greed and private free-spending onto a more or less naïve public.
The other reality is that “capitalism” whatever its faults, was never the villain. A system this demented could only exist outside so-called “democracy” and “capitalism” for distraction tags that are meant to decoy the real issue way, way off the table.
The actual issue is FASCISM at the merger of state under criminal corporate monopoly power for what our latest hijack and power grab is all about.
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» Fascism via parasite organized corporate crime rule
Posted by: Iconoclast421
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Posted by: Peter Mackrael on Sep 22, 2008 4:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If any company is given federal assistance, the US government should receive equity in the company, otherwise any massive cash infusion will merely reward those banks that got deepest in debt. Buying their worthless paper makes no sense. There is no clear method to evaluate the paper to be 'bought' and worst of all, no regulations to address the real cause or to investigate possible criminal activity. Buying this worthless paper without enforcing new regulations will merely encourage continued derivatives trading and increase the total debt. If this occurs, does anyone believe that $700 billion will be enough? I expect total bail-out costs could run into the tens of trillions if foreign banks are included.
On the other hand, government ownership will ensure that future profits (if any) are returned to the people and that new regulations to manage derivatives trading - assuming Congress writes them - are followed. If and when these banks become profitable and socially responsible, they can be sold back to private investors.
Further, I do not trust Paulson and the Bush administration to administer this huge 'bail-out/buy-out'. As with the war in Iraq, I fear that most of this money will go to political allies and cronies.
A separate bi-partisan committee/agency should be created to assess other alternatives. One possible alternative is to buy these failing banks at their current market value. All purchases should be subject to review and approval by Congress. If any bank rejects a government buy-out, then perhaps a cash infusion might be offered but with severe restrictions on its’ use.
I believe it is highly likely that conspiracy to defraud and outright fraud has occurred - and will continue to occur - with respect to this 'rescue' plan. Who will investigate fraud/conspiracy and when will these investigations begin? Will any Wall Street fraudsters go to jail?
The current approach uses "fear of imminent financial collapse and appeals to the need for public sacrifice" combined with a rush to push a "clean" bill through a Congress distracted by “how to protect the interests of homeowners facing foreclosure”, without allowing adequate time for assessment. This reminds me of the method that Bush used to pass the bill to authorize the invasion of Iraq. Paulson's initial proposal will give the Bush administration incredible power to privatize profits while socializing the losses!
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Posted by: bryangalt on Sep 22, 2008 5:21 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who is Joe Six-Pack? Well, he is the guy that voted for Bush/Cheney and will vote for McCain too. Jane Six-Pack is out there also. And lets not forget about those folks who only 'think' that they have money. I watched a middle aged woman drive by with a McCain-Palin sticker on her 2007 Lincoln windshield and laughed.
If that's all you can afford lady, you shouldn't be supporting Mr. I've-got-ten-houses so screw the rest of you.
Yes, it's the vast collection of American's who have simply settled down into their little routines of running the kids around, getting the BBQ ready on Saturday's, watching football on Sundays that have let the wolves into the corral. Anyone that didn't take time to cast a FRACKING vote is to blame, because silent approval is just as powerful as the voted kind.
The $700 billion dollars should be used to help people keep their homes without a doubt, not because they deserve to keep them. It's obvious that they bit off more than they could chew too and a little bit of keeping up with the Jones' set in making them forget the fine print still exists.
The fact that our greedy, narcissistic society deserves to get knocked down a few pegs shouldn't put people into the streets. But, it should definitely put the people that engineered this mess into the streets. I wouldn't shed a tear if a few of those high priced CEO's took that final leap out of their high-rises like they did in 1929. Those guys I can respect. They screwed everyone, got screwed themselves and they took responsibility for their actions and saved the country alot of money by not bailing them out.
Thomas Jefferson said this: I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies…if the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of currency...the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent that their fathers conquered.”
Looks like he was as smart as advertised.
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» Until they lose their cars, cable, and even their homes, they're going to remain too ignorant.
Posted by: GrantBurkeVT
» RE: The American Public Supports The Status Quo
Posted by: ebishirl
» RE: The American Public Supports The Status Quo
Posted by: bryangalt
» McCain only has 7 houses. But he has 13 cars.
Posted by: Beck
» RE: The American Public Supports The Status Quo
Posted by: buzzsaw
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Posted by: charles000 on Sep 22, 2008 5:27 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But then, yesterday, this purported bailout suddenly became $700 billion - well, that sounds a bit more serious, but what the hell, what's a few hundred billion dollars among friends, right?
But then, today, we're starting to hear numbers like 1.2 trillion, maybe 1.8 trillion dollars???
Well, hey, when you start talking trillions, now you're talking serious money , , , maybe?
No doubt you may have an additional opinion or two . . . but at this point, I don't think anyone knows what the hell is really going on, and that is my serious, honest opinion
Or, to put it another way:
Bend over everyone - incoming, deep and hard.
Most ordinary folks with a pulse and an IQ above that of a bacteria knew that the excrement was about to hit the high compression blower . . . but even I have to admit, this is beyond seriously deep doodoo we're now in.
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» it's probably worse than doo-doo
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: writerman on Sep 22, 2008 5:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One could argue that Paulson will emerge as the most powerful man in the US republic, a kind of unelected, position of power to rival that of the president.
It's like the financial elite want their very own president, leader, protector; because they don't trust Bush to do the job himself.
Concentrating so much economic power in Paulson, has profound political and social implications. Paulson is demanding that his actions be above the law and not subject to redress or scrutiny in the courts. Doesn't this sound like a economic version of Bush's theory that the President, in his role as commander in chief, is also above the law?
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» RE: Yes, with a "no oversight" rule written right into the bailout!
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: rancespergl on Sep 22, 2008 6:05 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What a way to clog the airwaves before the election, eh?
It doesn't so much damage Obama as keeps our eyes off of McCain/Palin.
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Posted by: Von on Sep 22, 2008 6:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One question I have is; why is this money being called our "tax dollars"? Are'nt our "tax dollars" already used up by paying interests on money borrowed and to the Federal Reserve and already in the red?
And WHY are we always turning to the governemnt for help and protection? Isn't that like asking a thief that just robbed you to please return what they just stolen because they had a change of heart??
In the last two days here on Alternet I have read articles where one is wanting the government to fix this situation and the other is calling the money our "tax dollars".
Wouldn't it be nice that come next Labor Day, millions and millions of us go to Washington DC and show them we are ready and willing to take over OUR RESPONSIBILTIES to have our OWN government and not some damned mutated fascist/capitalistic corporatocricy?
We are the laughing stock of the World as we claim we have a democracy for and by the People, that we have rights and priveledges and the persuits of happiness and a sound and moral justice system.
We set here year after year after year and just keep getting robbed. I recall Bush talking to a woman in front of a large group of people and he had a microphone in his hand. The woman told him and the audience that she works 2 jobs ( maybe it was 3 ) and Bush interrupted and said something along the lines of how she was a great, hard working American because she has more than 1 job. WTF??
She has more than 1 job because she is forced to work her ass off to try to make ends meet..not because she enjoys it and being away from her family.
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» RE: Can someone help me out?
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: Can someone help me out?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Can someone help me out?
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: Can someone help me out?
Posted by: sirios
» RE: Can someone help me out? A salient question when...
Posted by: gazooks
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Posted by: citizenjoe on Sep 22, 2008 6:16 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Bastille Day for the USA
Posted by: hurricane hugo
» Documentation on fascism
Posted by: citizenjoe
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Posted by: GreyFoxThree on Sep 22, 2008 6:29 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jiff
Ultimate Anonymity
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Posted by: Patriot Acting on Sep 22, 2008 6:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: hagwind on Sep 22, 2008 6:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wish I could distill this article into a one- or even five-minute presentation that my friends and acquaintances would sit still and listen to. But keeping the global interconnections straight in my own head is challenging enough. So what I'm pondering is how to translate the macro picture down to the micro level. Joshua wrote:
If, as one definition holds, capitalism is all about maximizing efficiency, what happens when meaningful production becomes so efficient that the system ends up cranking out more goods than the population needs -- more than it can absorb?
One flip-side question is what do our jobs look like in a system that's hell-bent on "maximizing efficiency"? An awful lot of us are interchangeable cogs on assembly lines turning out "have it your way" burgers, or checkout lines at places like Wal-Mart. Another question: How does the system go about unloading those surplus goods it's created, the widgets, the cosmetics, the drugs, the political candidates? Marketing. Advertising. Persuading us we need this stuff by hammering home the message, day in, day out, that we're inadequate without it. Not only have these people degraded the environment, they've degraded the language by relentlessly using it to manipulate, insinuate, and come as close to lying as they can without getting busted.
The contemporary Republican Party has succeeded spectacularly at harnessing the utter amorality of Big Business to the religiosity of the religious Right. With one hand they're creating the problem -- a society in which whatever can't be measured in dollars has no value at all -- and with the other they're holding out a smoke-and-mirrors solution: "traditional family values" that pretty much ignore economic issues altogether. Neat trick as long as you can get away with it.
What I'm doing is pointing out that the unregulated free-for-all we've had since the early 1980s is basically like a big casino. If people want to gamble with dollars, fine; but these people are gambling with companies, countries, and, ultimately, human lives. Whether it's because of greed, testosterone, or adrenaline addiction, these people are out of control. Their concern for human life is on a par with that of your average drug kingpin or power-mad dictator. If they were your relatives, you'd be praying for their souls and trying to get them into rehab. If they were drug kingpins or power-mad dictators -- hey, don't we declare war on those guys?
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» RE: The casino junkies are running the world
Posted by: Lauren
» for an alternate view of economy
Posted by: Drclaw
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Posted by: scheherezade on Sep 22, 2008 6:52 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The investor class likes sure things when it comes to putting real money on the long-term line.
After this unpleasantness dies down, I expect we'll be hearing loud calls for largescale privatizing of roads, bridges, power companies, water companies, etc.
Needless to say, with the enthusiastic approval of Dickbrain and Dumbcunt Redstate -- who also invite you to replace progressive income taxes with a regressive "Fair Tax" sales levy.
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Posted by: jdub on Sep 22, 2008 7:24 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Instead of railing against bail outs, better to put energies into electing a Democratic congress and president, rebuilding unions, and restoring a progressive taxation system.
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» RE: sounds like a threat
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: sounds like a threat
Posted by: Spot
» RE: sounds like a threat
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Don't let your ideology blind you...
Posted by: left_libertarian
Comments are closed-
Posted by: TJColatrella on Sep 22, 2008 7:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is referred to as Conservatism is nothing less than radical recklessness with an intent to defraud and embezzle from the American people,...it's never been anything else than that..!
Let's hope this will finally expose this fraud of Conservatism for the failed philosophy that it truly is..!
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» RE: Deregulation - HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS
Posted by: gellero1
» That makes no sense
Posted by: fanny666
» RE: The game of politics
Posted by: Lauren
» Regulation Standards........
Posted by: gellero1
» OPPS..here's the link
Posted by: gellero1
» Rightwing RUBBISH. Even Wall $treet can't deny that "deregulation" is a major cause.
Posted by: GrantBurkeVT
» RE: Deregulation - HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS
Posted by: hagwind
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Posted by: gellero1 on Sep 22, 2008 7:50 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Isn't it true that Sen. Obama recieved their LARGEST campaign donations. ??
Isn't it true that The Clinton admin had the above institutions basically change the loan rules ( with pressure from the Black Caucus ) so the newly created 'sub prime market' was opened to people who could never be expected to pay ??
Please...........somebody............explain this to me, or correct me.
PS...........isn't Sen Biden well entrenched in banking circles?? They all are Delaware corporations.
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» RE: And the OBama Camp ??
Posted by: Quannah
» These companies give to both parties
Posted by: fanny666
» What's to explain?
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: What's to explain?
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Done and ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Done and ...
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» That doesn't make Mccain/Palin any better.
Posted by: GrantBurkeVT
» RE: And the OBama Camp ??
Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: And the OBama Camp ??
Posted by: Lauren
» "Delaware corporations"
Posted by: fanny666
» Here's some interesting info
Posted by: gellero1
» RE: Here's some interesting info
Posted by: fanny666
» A longer list!
Posted by: Beck
» OK..........but..............
Posted by: gellero1
» RE: OK..........but..............
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: A longer list!
Posted by: 6399
» RE: A longer list!
Posted by: nochicagoboys
Comments are closed-
Posted by: symcokid on Sep 22, 2008 7:55 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: solrev on Sep 22, 2008 8:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Tell me lies Tell me sweet little lies
Posted by: BigRon
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Posted by: Io on Sep 22, 2008 8:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dead Rats
Did you see what they were at
Sucking on a young man's blood
Wishing he could come, yeah
Sucking on a soldier's brain
Wishing it would be the same
Dead cat, dead rat, did you see what they were at
Fat cat in a top hat
Thinks he's an aristocrat
Thinks he can kill and slaughter
Thinks he can shoot my daughter
Dead cats, dead rats, think you're an aristocrat
Crap .... ha, that's crap
Jim Morrison, Ray Manzarek, John Densmore, Robby Krieger
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Posted by: sharloch on Sep 22, 2008 8:14 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Shock doctrine framing at Nation magazine, it is everywhere.
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: X-POLYGAMIST WIFE on Sep 22, 2008 8:16 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
FLDS polygamists bankrupted the Ephraim Bank in Colorado City, AZ and cost Arizona taxpayers 13 million. Now the YFZ Ranch is costing Texas taxpayers millions.
Watch the video:
http://www.bankingonheaven.com
BANKING ON HEAVEN
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Sep 22, 2008 8:26 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The reason that these factors always seemed to be glossed-over when discussing the Great Depression is that they question the basic assumptions of the capitalist system itself. And that raising these questions amounts to some sort of religious heresy.
So it is with the MSM today. We get talking heads and pundits hehming and hawing on the media. But they don't want to "take the bull by the horns" and just come out and SAY IT that there are problems with the dog-eat-dog form of capitalism in the U.S.
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» RE: The Great Depression caused by unregulated speculation in financial markets.j
Posted by: Lauren
» Also, getting out of the depression didn't "just happen"
Posted by: fanny666
» According to Bernanke, the "Fed" CAUSED the Great Depression of 1929
Posted by: Mister_PsyOps
» Bernanke is wrong and so is Friedman. The Fed didn't cause the Great Depression.
Posted by: yellow
Comments are closed-
Posted by: fanny666 on Sep 22, 2008 8:43 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are basically 2 economies: the Real economy and the Speculative economy. Labor and Capital. The Real economy is goods and services, the speculative economy is investments. It's the Speculative economy that's in turmoil right now.
The Real economy actually CREATES capital. So, for example, the reason that a dozen eggs costs $2, but 3 scrambled eggs costs $3 is that labor went into it. Labor creates capital.
The speculative economy deals with existing capital, it does not create any capital. It certainly can benefit in the creation of capital- somebody lends you money so you can open up a breakfast restaurant and increase the value of eggs- but the speculation itself does not directly create capital ("increase economic growth" = "create capital"). An investor takes a risk- he's betting that you can scramble enough eggs (create enough capital) to pay back the loan, plus interest. One of the fundamental concepts of capitalism is supposed to be that the investor takes the risk, and he is responsible if it was a bad economic decision to take that risk. Also, the investor must actually have the capital he promises. So, if you ask for $10,000 to open up a breakfast place, the investor should not say "Well, I have 2 $5000 loans out right now, and when I get paid back, I'll have enough, so go ahead and pay for the restaurant and I'll give you the money when my loans come back."
Part of the "risk" is that those 2 loans might NOT come back, and therefore the $10,000 is not his to lend. That's the capital-to-leverage ratio. Lets say, the investor has $2000 on hand, is waiting on $10000 to come back, but gives you a $10000 loan anyways. 20000:2000 is a 10:1 ratio.
When Bear Stearns crashed, it had $11.1 billion in actual capital supporting $395 billion in assets, a leverage ratio of more than 35 to one. When Carlyle Capital crashed, it was levered at 32 to 1. And when Fannie and Freddie were finally taken over by the US Treasury; they were levered at 80 to 1, which is to say that they had a one dollar capital cushion for every $80 they had loaned out. (google the company's name and the words "leverage ratio" for sources)
You can't loan out money you don't have. That's called a "bubble in the speculative economy". And this is what deregulation allows. It been going on for a long long time, for example NIXON deregulated the money markets when he did away with the Bretton-Woods system. So you could buy Yen with Dollars and play the daily fluctuations- none of it based on REAL economics, just speculation.
So when you're making loans based on loans based on currency speculation, based on loans, that's a house of cards. One card goes, and you've got what the Financial Times calls a Global Financial Crisis. Lehman owned tons of Fannie mortgages, and those mortgages were insured by AIG. Every card in the house is connected.
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» RE: Some basic economics, to help explain what's going on (repost)
Posted by: windseye
» Labor creates Capital
Posted by: pdxjoe
» RE: Labor creates Capital
Posted by: Spot
» Investment Without Profit
Posted by: pdxjoe
» RE: Some basic economics, to help explain what's going on (repost)
Posted by: solrev
» RE: Some basic economics, to help explain what's going on (repost)
Posted by: sirios
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Posted by: jstepp590 on Sep 22, 2008 8:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Americans had realized that those were the regulations they wanted to deregulate we would never have done it. We're not stupid or brainwashed, like some of the mindless jackals up here seem to think in their pathetic arrogance. If we had understood what they meant by "deregulation" it never would have happened.
If they do not bring back those regulations, verbatum, I say Bush and his cronies can shove it and I hope the bailout fails.
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» Crash and burn
Posted by: leafsong1
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Posted by: Sojourner on Sep 22, 2008 9:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Congress should take the legislation that bailed out the Savings and Loans and apply it lock, stock, and barrel to investment banks and mortgage lenders. No, it is not perfect. But it will not rip us off and reduce us to slaves of Wall Street, as with Paulson's plan.
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» In case you hadn't noticed...
Posted by: leafsong1
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Posted by: NoMcCainPalin on Sep 22, 2008 9:09 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
John McCain -- OLD ideas, OLD solutions
If you think the above slogan has legs, please contact the Democratic National Committee with this link -- Contact DNC -- then copy & paste the bold text below into the Question box. NOTE: the link works slowly.
To help Senator Obama win in November, please use the following slogan in his TV ads: "John McCain -- OLD ideas, OLD solutions"
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» Great slogan, Person Who Is Not Hugh Scott!
Posted by: fanny666
» AlterNet pulled the McCain video clip, fanny. Any place else I can find it?
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin
» RE: AlterNet pulled the McCain video clip, fanny. Any place else I can find it?
Posted by: fanny666
» Chinese Proverb- "He who play with peanuts has solution in hand!"
Posted by: common intelligence
» It's obvious at the U.S. Naval Academy, midshipman McCain skipped the leadership classes.
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin
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Posted by: common intelligence on Sep 22, 2008 9:24 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
BUT NO COSIDERATION WAS GIVEN TO THEIR INSIGHT. That's because they were telling the truth and disrupting their plans.
The power structure as it is, same as the repuk political machine, their method of dealing with disrupters is to :redirect, deny, ignore, deceive, and lie, about anything that is contrary to their machine and its power stucture.
The simplicity, be it ever so nievely put is this.
IF you and your neighbors are broke, "Small" business is running on the edge, banks are broke, the Governement is broke....hey remember "Fort Knox?" etc.......where's all the money?
Well there is none! It's all paper that represents debt, not tangible wealth. And how in hell does Bush or any system Fed or who ever get away with telling any one "we're going to bail out " someone elses financial problem with money that doesn't exist?
That's like you or I going next door to a neighbor that's going to loose their house (which it isn't really "their house, but a contract to pay a debt") and tell them I'm going to take money from their other neighbor to bail them out of their debt, but you are going to have to pay for your own bail out.
It's all a gawd damn bait and switch pea game. It's faud to the highest degree of crime.
I can't get away with it and they can't either. These people are down and out right criminally faudulent.
That fact is the value of anything is only worth what it's tangible value is. It's the applied simple law of Thermodynamics.
simply put, you can't get something (energy) for nothing and it takes more energy to get any energy out of any system". The net gain, there is none."
The sad truth is all this mumbo jumbo "scambling for money" as they MS likes to put it, and the empty rethorical double talk is all about deception. It's slight of hand work to keep people believing a lie. That is the economic model that's been perpetuated since 1913 doesn't work and can't. That is unless some one loses.
I'll tell you this. As it is, if the government can't pay how in hell do people buy the idea that they will be able to pay. It ain't happenin' Jack! Besides how do people believe and how can the Bush machine
pay with money that doesn't exist.
It's all about paying debt with debt. This is going to stop.
Oh yah, back to that question: "what happened to Fort Knox? and what does it represent?" Oh and what about all that gold that was confinscated that was under the Twin Towers? eh?
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Posted by: nochicagoboys on Sep 22, 2008 9:29 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you for your fine editorial.
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» RE: A well-written exposé of what has happened.
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: A well-written exposé of what has happened.
Posted by: nochicagoboys
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Posted by: wjfaust on Sep 22, 2008 9:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My only caution is even bringing up the notion of human greed--even as an immediate cause. Humans are what they are. When systems are poorly designed, it isn't difficult to find the human "components" that will cause the system to "misbehave". By bringing it up, however, some will assume the problems can be solved by "replacing greedy people with good people". There are very few Ray Andersons in the world.
As your article clearly points out, these are deep rooted in systemic issues, not greed issues.
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» Human Greed
Posted by: pdxjoe
» Greed vs. institutional design
Posted by: fanny666
» a CEO's legal obligation to maximize profit
Posted by: pdxjoe
» Good point.
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Systemic indeed
Posted by: leafsong1
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Posted by: Ahimsa on Sep 22, 2008 10:33 AM
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I mean, this is the big blow, right?
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» RE: Where is the tipping point?
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Where is the tipping point?
Posted by: nochicagoboys
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Posted by: chorton on Sep 22, 2008 10:34 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Determined to prevent or postpone the next depression, the "overlords" and their economic managers have allowed debt, obligations and other claims on real material wealth to accumulate to fantastic, unprecedented levels. There is no precedent in American history for such a mountain of fictitious value or its inevitable collapse, but perhaps the fabled meltdown of the German economy in 1923 may hold some lessons for us.
The struggle to manage the collapse and restart the economy will be messy and brutal. Every dollar of debt or obligation, public or private, is someone else's "property". The economy could be restarted by wiping it all out, by decree or by hyperinflation, but the owners of the debt will fight tooth and nail against any move in that direction. The question for everyone will be: at whose expense will this crisis be worked out?
Already, a foreshadowing of this struggle can be seen in the debates in Congress. Can we get the government to act for us to prevent mass starvation, mass homelessness, the interruption of essential services? To bail out the people and preserve our buying power, put people to work doing things that need to be done? Or will the super rich prevail, salvaging their position by plundering the remaining public assets, opening wide the faucet for tax money flowing directly into their pockets and starving the people? Will they be able to crush our resistance with police, vigilantes and concentration camps, diverting us with wars and manufactured threats?
This is nothing less than a revolutionary crisis, and I fear that we, the American people and those who would lead us, are in no way prepared for it. The last depression and the lessons learned from it is beyond living memory and even the children of those who lived through it are growing old. The radical leadership of the working class, built and tempered through a century of struggle, was largely smashed in the '50's, its legacy and hard-won wisdom nearly forgotten outside of a segment of the labor movement and some college history departments.
The working people have bought wholesale into the idea that there is no working class in America, that we are all "middle class", except for the poor, "illegals" and others "not like us", who are seen as threats. With unions legally hamstrung and representing only 7% of the private workforce, and with maybe 98% of the people getting their news from the corporate media, most of us experience our local struggles and hardships as if we were alone and outnumbered. This makes us very vulnerable to lies and distractions, unable to focus on our real interests or to see who our real enemies are.
We need to learn fast, and let go of our illusions and excuses for inaction. We need to get much more organized fast, and get our hands dirty with the hard work or organizing in our neighborhoods and workplaces. And we will have to get our communication lines with the millions up and running, fast. The mass media will be worse than no help at all.
We urgently need a solid analysis of what is happening and why and where we might be headed to guide us. But it must be a useful tool, relevant to the challenges we face, one that guides us in building unity, one that helps us think strategically and build winning alliances. Notice which thinkers - such as Joshua Holland - exemplify this, and share and discuss their work! If anyone still doubts that this is becoming a fight for survival, it's wake-up time!
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» The Middle-Class is Working Class
Posted by: pdxjoe
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Posted by: jaylindberg@hotmail.com on Sep 22, 2008 11:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A far as the housing bubble goes that is really not what happened. It is more like a finance bubble and the flip side of the housing mess when the feds raised interest rates to 20% in the late seventies. Those interest rates depressed housing values of decade in America.
This housing "bubble" was created by 30, 48, and 60 month adjustable, negative amortized, 1% mortgages. (Sub-prime mortgages) Borrowers were qualified for these loans at the 1% interest rates and the loans rolled over to adjustable rate laons in 30, 48 or 60 months. Of course, these loans were sold off to investors. Financial instruments like these artificially inflated real estate values at greater than a trillion dollars a year for much of this decade. As long as everyone was making lots of money, the industry and America ignored a fundamental reality. They were creating a bubble economy that was not sustainable.
This bubble has been bursting for over a year, but there are still quite a few bubbles left to burst. Here are a few of them.
1)We have a Federal deficit that now will exceed 10 trillion dollars we will never be able to pay back.
2)We have most expensive and inefficient health care system on the planet that requires deficit spending to fund.
3) We have a trade deficit in the 800 billion dollar a year range that is unsustainable and responsible for a huge chunk of this mess we are in today.
4) We have an oil bubble that overestimated global oil reserves by over 600 billion barrels. Those reserve figures represent over 80% of oil based energy stock values.
5) Our military budget and infrastructure investments associated with it is larger than the rest of the world combined. It is not sustainable.
6) Closer to home- A 200 billion dollar a year drug war (a war we forget about that has now costed over 2 trillion dollars) in America and produced the highest drug abuse rates in the industrial world.
7) A nuclear waste disposal bill we have pawned off on the government that will cost at least a trillion dollars to clean up properly. (Of course the money isn't there either.)
I'm sure there are a lot more examples just like infrastructure investments and environmental concerns we need to deal with but my point is this.
The bubbles are bursting and the lies associated with them will have to be dealt with. Our future will not be a pretty one.
I believe this country will have to go bankrupt before it gets fixed. Of course there are no promises that will fix these problems either.
Jay Lindberg
jaylindberg@hotmail.com
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Posted by: NoMcCainPalin on Sep 22, 2008 11:43 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is no doubt in my mind now that Bill wants Obama to lose the election so his wife can run again in 2012.
For readers who have forgotten what President Clinton is all about, he's the self-serving, womanizing, greedy bastard who pushed NAFTA and took $500,000 from the Arabs for a weekend's work lobbying for Dubai's takeover of our major seaports.
The slimy son of a bitch should crawl back to Hope, Arkansas, and hide under a rock where he belongs.
-----------------------------------------------
John McCain -- OLD ideas, OLD solutions
If you think the above slogan has legs, please contact the Democratic National Committee with this link -- Contact DNC -- then copy & paste the bold text below into the Question box. NOTE: the link works slowly.
To help Senator Obama win in November, please use the following slogan in his TV ads: "John McCain -- OLD ideas, OLD solutions"
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Posted by: leafsong1 on Sep 22, 2008 12:45 PM
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Posted by: leafsong1 on Sep 22, 2008 12:51 PM
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Posted by: PaulK on Sep 22, 2008 12:55 PM
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Step 1: the city or state sells the water works to a private investor (for $150 cash).
Step 2: the rent for the water works skyrockets. In real life the company can charge anything it wants for its monopoly, provided it has bribed or has pressured the public utilities commission. A monopoly can always bill the town fire department a dollar a gallon if it can work out the details. Who else is the fire department going to turn to for water?
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Posted by: leafsong1 on Sep 22, 2008 12:59 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Disgusting Democrats in Congress
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Disgusting Democrats in Congress
Posted by: leafsong1
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Posted by: Cybershaman on Sep 22, 2008 1:39 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The American worker has been forced to reduce their expenditures to the basic necessities and an economy structured around 'consumerism' cannot continue to thrive under these conditions.
The price for those basic necessities has been inflated far more than any other aspect of the economy but this is not recognized because all goods are lumped together in our GDP. The American consumer is bankrupt, the system is bankrupt, welcome to the Soviet Union!
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» Overproduction means that there is not sufficient effective demand to purchase what was produced.
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: vangogh69 on Sep 22, 2008 2:25 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: I'm livid...You Are Not Alone My Friend
Posted by: left_libertarian
» AGREE!!!
Posted by: thistleblower
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Posted by: yellow on Sep 22, 2008 2:49 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The McCain tax cuts will worsen deficits and perhaps cause a bigger financial meltdown. We need progressive taxation and a spending program for full employment to resolve the crisis and relieve the current chronic stagnation of US capitalism.
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Posted by: Sharkie on Sep 22, 2008 4:15 PM
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Nobody in their right mind should want anything to do with the old economy.R.I.P.
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Posted by: ProgressiveReb on Sep 22, 2008 4:37 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Progressive Future has a great online action that allows you to send an email directly to Pelosi telling her that, if we are going to hand over $700 billion, we need to demand:
* Better oversight and regulation of financial markets.
* Help for the people who are struggling to stay in their homes.
* No "golden parachutes" for the CEOs of failed corporations that benefit from the bailout.
You can find the email action here - it’s quick and simple.
Please sign it today. Don't let them push this massive, historic bailout through without the consideration it deserves and the changes that must be made to safeguard the interests of the American people.
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» RE: Use This to Tell Pelosi -- No Blank Checks!!
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Pelosi Is Human Garbage
Posted by: left_libertarian
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Posted by: Jeanne on Sep 22, 2008 5:02 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Get-out-of-jail-free card
Posted by: badkitty
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Posted by: jackyD on Sep 22, 2008 5:41 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: cori on Sep 22, 2008 5:55 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
email or call 202 224 3121 and give them hell!
Because we are in the midst of a financial collapse we must cut back on the extravagant military spending that we have been indulging in for so many years. We need to cut back on the money that is paid to private companies that that supply everything form food to toilet paper to arms to many of the 761 bases around the world. We have more bases then all the nations combined in history. We need to stop funding the private companies in Iraq and Afganistan. We need to get the hell out of Iraq and make the oil companies pay for their own private armies. We need to cut funding to drug companies and arms manufacturers. We need to raise revenues by not spending so much and that does not mean cutting vital life support systems to all of us like Social Security and Medicare and Medicade. We need to stop paying those who have robbed us blind.
We need to raise caps on Social Security, restore the capital gains tax, get rid of tax cuts for the very rich, cut back on some of the 761 bases around the world that we pay for and not pay for private corporate armies like Blackwater at the very least. And we need to do what they do in the UK and that is tax 50 cents on every stock transaction. That's how they raise billions.
So get off your sorry U know what and speak out.
We need to create laws that force companies to stay here or else their products won't be sold here. We need to tax products coming from China.
There are many, many ways to raise revenues without rapping us.
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Posted by: beeden on Sep 22, 2008 6:24 PM
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Posted by: gellero1 on Sep 22, 2008 6:41 PM
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Posted by: civilsociety on Sep 22, 2008 7:33 PM
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From real estate agents, to mortgage brokers, to title insurance to investment houses, to banks, to real estate lawyers to developers to the govt.
And the guy who only wants to call a place his own has had to pay every troll along the way his cut before getting to pay off something for himself.
I want bailed out too. I want 450 for my house and I will leave this country so fast it would make your head spin. Any takers? Please someone buy me out so I can get out of here.
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Posted by: aonghus36 on Sep 22, 2008 9:26 PM
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Posted by: ReallyBearish on Sep 23, 2008 6:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: A big compliment to Josh
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: bubbabuddha on Sep 24, 2008 2:06 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Since regulated markets produced these outcomes we need to acknowledge that and make moves that would free up a market for everyone, not just movers and shakers in NY and WDC. I think they mean THEY enjoy the benefit of a free market while we have to accept a million regulations just set up a small business.
We have a black market economy, supported by illegal drug trade and various other means. Your stock portfolio, your retirement goes up because of the enormous risk and profit in black markets. Until we end the holocaust on drug users we will see a distorted market. Clearly there are markets that exist and are desired, while at the same time overly regulated policy making chokes honest business and people's abilities to start up a business in the first place. So much intervention and yet so very little ever gets said about such a structure maybe being the fault of such speculative bubbles and such outragous industries being created to profit off other people's transgressions.
MOst professions clearly need to disable people to stay in business. Disabling professions make us all serfs in the short and long term. If the only profit lies in jailing and criminalizing everyone soon there will be no way to survive or make a living with everyone set out to get each other. These overly broad regulatory agencies have clearly made every effort to blame liberty as the entire cause of these problems. These problems were created in a overly regulated situation, let these people that made thee mistakes pay the price for it, not me or anybody that would be forced to pay them, that maybe called robbery when you or I do such but a bailout when elites do such? I say it looks like state regulated fraud, maybe we should vote them out for starters and send up a new amendment to the constitution stipulating the meaning of a "free society" and a "free market" rather then this shell game being propagandized as a version of "freedom" when it merely looks as if they are consolidating the wealth into their pots.
As George Carlin would say, the "owners" of this country want more for themselves.
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Posted by: Azshiva on Sep 24, 2008 2:47 AM
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Posted by: mtaron on Sep 25, 2008 10:50 AM
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Add the following proposal to the bailout package. It is based on the idea that if we (taxpayors) buy failing mortgages & derivative debt products, the companies who are "up stream", those who sold the various derived products, benefit by not being forced to pay up on the swap/insurance/hedge due to the fact that we have bought these with the intention to keep the default snow ball from rolling down the hill (aka create a fire break).
If the upstream beneficiaries can be identified, they can be required to make monthly payments to us (U.S. Treasury) in return for our not allowing the product they received revenue on when they sold it to fail causing them to immediately be forced to pay up the total potential (notional) value and thereby being forced into bankruptcy. It would be painful to them, but might allow them to survive. If they don't survive, they will die slowly rather than immediately. If that happens, they are responsible anyway.
This seems workable and imminently fair in return for our saving their hides to keep them from dying & falling on top of the entire world economy.
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Posted by: Democritus on Sep 25, 2008 11:53 AM
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Posted by: DrDon on Sep 25, 2008 5:06 PM
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Remember the Keating 5!
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Posted by: uncleeddie on Sep 26, 2008 6:13 AM
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Posted by: grkjr on Sep 26, 2008 8:52 AM
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Posted by: SunevaLightfoot on Sep 26, 2008 3:08 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are a lot of players responsible for this mess we are in - including those who refuse to live within their means instead of feeding this greed machine.
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Posted by: Lifesabeach on Sep 27, 2008 9:32 PM
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I call on you to consider the American people as your number one priority in any plans to bail out Wall Street in your current negotiations to solve America’s financial crisis.
Not only do I urge you to pass legislation with sensible checks and balances that protect the public as hundreds of billions of our taxpayer dollars are used to address the crisis, but in addition I ask for some common sense to be part of this package.
I believe we need some emergency legislation that removes the power from global corporations and gives America back to its people!
1. BROKER A DEAL WITH AMERICA’S WEALTHIEST INDIVIDUALS – The 20 Richest Americans, [per www.forbes.com]
a. This group of people have made their money on the backs of Americans and could in turn help America’s future by forming a group who could loan these companies private money, with the hopes of profiting in the future without the same risk of the average American taxpayer.
b. They are proven successful businessmen/women and could form a board of governance/financial management over this problem that would be far more successful than entrusting $700 billion dollars with Henry Paulson.
2. HELP MAINSTREET FREEZE FORECLOSURES -
a. This should have been done in January 2007 when the subprime mortgage industry began crashing as people’s Adjustable Rate Mortgages first began to cause foreclosures. It is not too late!
3. NEW TYPE OF HOMESTEAD ACT: RETURN ALL AMERICANS BACK TO THEIR HOMES IF THEY WERE ALREADY FORECLOSED UPON:
a. The American government can step in by providing an emergency HOMESTEAD ACT. Soften the economic blow on Americans and reinstall confidence. Prevent a new wave of American slums for the folks who once belonged to the American middle class and a surge of homelessness and the economic depression.
b. American’s can pay their debt back through a system similar to Ameri-Corp.
4. FIXING ALL MORTGAGE RATES AT ONE FLAT RATE TEMPORARILY –
a. Give every American homeowner a fixed rate of 3-4% that is affordable. Mortgage companies can still make money, but there is no need for CEO’s to make up to 400 times the amount of their average worker!
b. Gives all Americans a financial break that eases inflation in all other areas and stretches their paychecks. Stimulates the housing market, solves clogged credit problem.
5. REGULATE ALL MORTGAGES WITH A PLAN TO REDUCE SOME RESTRICTIONS LATER –
a. Emergency legislation - regulate all mortgages temporarily as the government provides a fixed rate - buys time -stabilizes economy.
b. Craft long-range regulatory legislation that would replace the emergency plan as the economy stabilizes.
6. PROVIDE AN EMERGENCY EMPLOYMENT PLAN FOR AMERICAN WORKERS –
a. Create green energy jobs to remove our dependence on foreign oil.
7. ESTABLISH A TRUE LIVING WAGE SCALE-
a. Raise minimum wage to equal TRUE cost of living.
b. Place a cap on CEO wages [in a way that provides no loopholes]- pass legislation requiring companies to pay workers a fair living wage - give tax breaks to CEO’s who create the best benefit packages, work environments, highest compensation for their workers.
c. Provide tax breaks to corporations who provide full medical/retirement benefits - add taxes to corporations who do not, thus once again encouraging corporations to care for their employees holistically.
8. END WAR IN IRAQ - USE MONEY SAVED TO CREATE JOBS -IMPROVE EDUCATION
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Posted by: xvet on Sep 29, 2008 2:26 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
xvet
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Posted by: cwyatt on Oct 5, 2008 1:23 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: mmckinl on Sep 22, 2008 1:01 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Find Your Senators and Representative by Zip Code
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» RE: We Must Stop This Bailout ; yes, and write your papers.
Posted by: Beck
» Like Italy under Mussolini
Posted by: citizenjoe
» RE: Like Italy under Mussolini
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» I have already sent proof of additional criminal activity sufficient for prosecution. Please READ...
Posted by: Prophit
» Cont-I have already sent proof of additional criminal activity -
Posted by: Prophit
» Goldman Sachs gets a woody
Posted by: weathered
» Beg to differ
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Beg to differ (You may diagree, but won't after reading The Shock Doctrine)
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Beg to differ (You may diagree, but won't after reading The Shock Doctrine)
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: We Must Stop This Bailout ... It Is Disaster Capitalism !
Posted by: LillianB
Comments are closed-
Posted by: skoog5600 on Sep 22, 2008 3:36 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The reality is that the US is like a drug addict, and until it hits bottom "REAL" change will not occur. So it is best to wait until the crash and burn occurs and hope you don't take too big a hit on your lifestyle, but I suspect most will and are already feeling it. Then once the smoke clears start rebuilding your life.
Good luck!
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» How About Something New And Good?
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: How About Something New And Good?
Posted by: lkagy
» RE: How About Something New And Good?
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: How About Something New And Good?
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Good Idea, last chance...... self sufficiency and local crafts and manufacturing
Posted by: Prophit
» Labor Credits
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: It is too late ...
Posted by: Godfather89
» This is 100% a giant scam and fraud..... I have done research ...
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Teller on Sep 22, 2008 3:54 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» The UGLY American!
Posted by: eeezzz
» Not all, and even if we were as you say, doesn't mean we deserved....
Posted by: Prophit
» Good idea, keep the hate between Americans going, its what....
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: blogoffanddie on Sep 22, 2008 4:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The American Dream is failing because the American Dream has become the world's nightmare. Until the American people learn this truth, nothing will change in America.
After years of bombardment from the mainstream media, the American populace has been dumbed-down and programmed to ignore the substance, realities and the issues of the world around them, and focus on the peripheral, pointless and more often than not, irrelevant sideshows created by a news media, government and economic system full of hucksters, corporate bootlickers and suck-ups.
America has become a circus and a nation of voyeurs and peeping Toms. It is slowly devolving into a mindless freak show that millions of simpletons can watch every night on their TV's.
As a result, the American people are too confused, distracted or lazy to look up from their TV sets to see or do anything about the destruction that is taking place.
http://blogoffanddie.wordpress.com
So long Dubya, we'll always have debt and Guantanamo
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» RE: the American people are too confused, distracted or lazy to look up from their TV sets
Posted by: jstepp590
» RE: the American people are too confused, distracted or lazy to look up from their TV sets
Posted by: ALANHESTER
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Ottomatic on Sep 22, 2008 4:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Throw Gasoline on the Fire!
A 1,000 Billion Dollars for
A few WALL STREET Tycoons?
Bush said we were broke!
Vetoed giving 19 Billion Dollars to provide Health Care for 35 Million Poor Kids.
Is that Fair and Balanced?
Give the money directly to the people,save the struggling American families losing their homes by dropping their interest rates and forgiving their debt.
That's bottom up Economics:
For and by the People!
Start over.
Capitalism is a Failure.
Anything Based on Greed must FAIL!
Greed will screw you every time.
It is a negative Human Trait.
The Corporations have Plundered long enough.
Time to spend our money wisely on rebuilding America instead of
Lining their Pockets!
Stop the War!
Bring the Militia Home.
Become:
Self: Reliant, Sufficient and Efficient.
That's Freedom!
Go Local,
Go Now,
Go Big!
Surge
Purge
Update and
REBOOT!
Time to start over in a Totally New Direction The BUSH/Cheney/McCain Administration is a Total Failure.
All the Lies, Torture, Spying, Stealing, Secrecy, Dying and for what?
So they can Steal everything we own and mortgage America's future?
They made their Bed,
Let them Sleep in it!
Greed is Evil.
They are Evil!
They are corrupt.
Their Allegiance is to Their Class:
The Corporate Aristocracy!
Billionaires-R-US.
We have a totally different set of values.
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» RE: Right On
Posted by: phoolish
» RE: Burn, Baby, BURN! No Bailouts for Wall Street!
Posted by: jennmara
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Col. Jackleg on Sep 22, 2008 4:30 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Self-Reliance Begins At Sunrise.
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: WWIII begins at home!
Posted by: nochicagoboys
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Lauren on Sep 22, 2008 4:32 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why isn't this pig called a pig? You can call a pig a whore and put lipstick on it, but why would you want to...
Let's call this 'bail out' what it is, fraud. Fraud and money laundering. When we look at this activity as a conspiracy to defraud us, we have to look more closely at what is going on.
Anger - one letter short of danger, solution? Delay. But the brakes on this deal, the Wall street is not the most important thing, getting a grip on the housing situation is. The banks are doing everything bad to make it worse, they should be forced to deal with the people, let them keep their homes.
This plan is fraud on the largest scale EVER. A fire sale of dispossessed properties created a dependent class forever. The capitalists will rinse and repeat again and again until there is no middle class, all rich and slaves.
I think the bail out is running real fast in the WRONG direction. Don''t let them do it. They are all fools or corrupt and trying to ruin us.
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» VoteNoBailout.org - you can write your reps from this website
Posted by: fanny666
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Posted by: Mister_PsyOps on Sep 22, 2008 4:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
GW Bush and even his regime are not the core force behind this latest extortion racket bailout of what amounts to a Fascist economy. In case anyone hasn’t noticed yet, Bush can barely read a teleprompter without serious, devoted daycare. That does not mean Bush/Cheney and their assorted surface cronies are not criminals, however.
“Capitalism” with its free markets and competition does not exist anymore than “socialism” does with its collectivist rule. Sorry, but these are decoy labels meant to confuse and divide the gullible.
As I’ve said, what certainly does exist is Fascism via parasite organized corporate crime rule that has palmed off one Ponzi scheme over the next so that the economy of the globe is based on no more than a house of cheap smoke and mirrors designed to enrich monopoly corporate freeloaders at the bubbles of boom-bust contrived cycles and “socialize” the losses when unavoidable crashes come.
Put another way, insider Fascists grow rich for the pre-cooked bubbles and rape all Americans on the public nickel for planned crashes.
The practical reality and ground zero for this con is the giant private Ponzi trap “Federal Reserve” Corp (never federal and minus no reserves) built to soak wealth from the public as a virtual giveaway to the super-privileged.
It has gotten far worse, of course: about $1,240,000,000,000,000 worse at a bare minimum.
Insiders Paulson (ex CEO Goldman Sachs) and Bernanke are actually defending an over QUADRILLION dollar ($1,240 Quadrillion or over $1000 TRILLIONS) derivates casino style Wall Street bubble at what amounts to almost 20 times the entire earth’s global GDP (Bank of International Settlements figure). This is complete insanity where a write-down of 10% of the amount would bankrupt the U.S. and several other nations in a heartbeat. But the truth is, Organized Corporate Crime rule has already broken the globe. The criminals now want to putsch the results of all that greed and private free-spending onto a more or less naïve public.
The other reality is that “capitalism” whatever its faults, was never the villain. A system this demented could only exist outside so-called “democracy” and “capitalism” for distraction tags that are meant to decoy the real issue way, way off the table.
The actual issue is FASCISM at the merger of state under criminal corporate monopoly power for what our latest hijack and power grab is all about.
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» Fascism via parasite organized corporate crime rule
Posted by: Iconoclast421
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Posted by: Peter Mackrael on Sep 22, 2008 4:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If any company is given federal assistance, the US government should receive equity in the company, otherwise any massive cash infusion will merely reward those banks that got deepest in debt. Buying their worthless paper makes no sense. There is no clear method to evaluate the paper to be 'bought' and worst of all, no regulations to address the real cause or to investigate possible criminal activity. Buying this worthless paper without enforcing new regulations will merely encourage continued derivatives trading and increase the total debt. If this occurs, does anyone believe that $700 billion will be enough? I expect total bail-out costs could run into the tens of trillions if foreign banks are included.
On the other hand, government ownership will ensure that future profits (if any) are returned to the people and that new regulations to manage derivatives trading - assuming Congress writes them - are followed. If and when these banks become profitable and socially responsible, they can be sold back to private investors.
Further, I do not trust Paulson and the Bush administration to administer this huge 'bail-out/buy-out'. As with the war in Iraq, I fear that most of this money will go to political allies and cronies.
A separate bi-partisan committee/agency should be created to assess other alternatives. One possible alternative is to buy these failing banks at their current market value. All purchases should be subject to review and approval by Congress. If any bank rejects a government buy-out, then perhaps a cash infusion might be offered but with severe restrictions on its’ use.
I believe it is highly likely that conspiracy to defraud and outright fraud has occurred - and will continue to occur - with respect to this 'rescue' plan. Who will investigate fraud/conspiracy and when will these investigations begin? Will any Wall Street fraudsters go to jail?
The current approach uses "fear of imminent financial collapse and appeals to the need for public sacrifice" combined with a rush to push a "clean" bill through a Congress distracted by “how to protect the interests of homeowners facing foreclosure”, without allowing adequate time for assessment. This reminds me of the method that Bush used to pass the bill to authorize the invasion of Iraq. Paulson's initial proposal will give the Bush administration incredible power to privatize profits while socializing the losses!
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Posted by: bryangalt on Sep 22, 2008 5:21 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who is Joe Six-Pack? Well, he is the guy that voted for Bush/Cheney and will vote for McCain too. Jane Six-Pack is out there also. And lets not forget about those folks who only 'think' that they have money. I watched a middle aged woman drive by with a McCain-Palin sticker on her 2007 Lincoln windshield and laughed.
If that's all you can afford lady, you shouldn't be supporting Mr. I've-got-ten-houses so screw the rest of you.
Yes, it's the vast collection of American's who have simply settled down into their little routines of running the kids around, getting the BBQ ready on Saturday's, watching football on Sundays that have let the wolves into the corral. Anyone that didn't take time to cast a FRACKING vote is to blame, because silent approval is just as powerful as the voted kind.
The $700 billion dollars should be used to help people keep their homes without a doubt, not because they deserve to keep them. It's obvious that they bit off more than they could chew too and a little bit of keeping up with the Jones' set in making them forget the fine print still exists.
The fact that our greedy, narcissistic society deserves to get knocked down a few pegs shouldn't put people into the streets. But, it should definitely put the people that engineered this mess into the streets. I wouldn't shed a tear if a few of those high priced CEO's took that final leap out of their high-rises like they did in 1929. Those guys I can respect. They screwed everyone, got screwed themselves and they took responsibility for their actions and saved the country alot of money by not bailing them out.
Thomas Jefferson said this: I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies…if the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of currency...the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent that their fathers conquered.”
Looks like he was as smart as advertised.
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» Until they lose their cars, cable, and even their homes, they're going to remain too ignorant.
Posted by: GrantBurkeVT
» RE: The American Public Supports The Status Quo
Posted by: ebishirl
» RE: The American Public Supports The Status Quo
Posted by: bryangalt
» McCain only has 7 houses. But he has 13 cars.
Posted by: Beck
» RE: The American Public Supports The Status Quo
Posted by: buzzsaw
Comments are closed-
Posted by: charles000 on Sep 22, 2008 5:27 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But then, yesterday, this purported bailout suddenly became $700 billion - well, that sounds a bit more serious, but what the hell, what's a few hundred billion dollars among friends, right?
But then, today, we're starting to hear numbers like 1.2 trillion, maybe 1.8 trillion dollars???
Well, hey, when you start talking trillions, now you're talking serious money , , , maybe?
No doubt you may have an additional opinion or two . . . but at this point, I don't think anyone knows what the hell is really going on, and that is my serious, honest opinion
Or, to put it another way:
Bend over everyone - incoming, deep and hard.
Most ordinary folks with a pulse and an IQ above that of a bacteria knew that the excrement was about to hit the high compression blower . . . but even I have to admit, this is beyond seriously deep doodoo we're now in.
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» it's probably worse than doo-doo
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: writerman on Sep 22, 2008 5:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One could argue that Paulson will emerge as the most powerful man in the US republic, a kind of unelected, position of power to rival that of the president.
It's like the financial elite want their very own president, leader, protector; because they don't trust Bush to do the job himself.
Concentrating so much economic power in Paulson, has profound political and social implications. Paulson is demanding that his actions be above the law and not subject to redress or scrutiny in the courts. Doesn't this sound like a economic version of Bush's theory that the President, in his role as commander in chief, is also above the law?
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» RE: Yes, with a "no oversight" rule written right into the bailout!
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rancespergl on Sep 22, 2008 6:05 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What a way to clog the airwaves before the election, eh?
It doesn't so much damage Obama as keeps our eyes off of McCain/Palin.
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Posted by: Von on Sep 22, 2008 6:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One question I have is; why is this money being called our "tax dollars"? Are'nt our "tax dollars" already used up by paying interests on money borrowed and to the Federal Reserve and already in the red?
And WHY are we always turning to the governemnt for help and protection? Isn't that like asking a thief that just robbed you to please return what they just stolen because they had a change of heart??
In the last two days here on Alternet I have read articles where one is wanting the government to fix this situation and the other is calling the money our "tax dollars".
Wouldn't it be nice that come next Labor Day, millions and millions of us go to Washington DC and show them we are ready and willing to take over OUR RESPONSIBILTIES to have our OWN government and not some damned mutated fascist/capitalistic corporatocricy?
We are the laughing stock of the World as we claim we have a democracy for and by the People, that we have rights and priveledges and the persuits of happiness and a sound and moral justice system.
We set here year after year after year and just keep getting robbed. I recall Bush talking to a woman in front of a large group of people and he had a microphone in his hand. The woman told him and the audience that she works 2 jobs ( maybe it was 3 ) and Bush interrupted and said something along the lines of how she was a great, hard working American because she has more than 1 job. WTF??
She has more than 1 job because she is forced to work her ass off to try to make ends meet..not because she enjoys it and being away from her family.
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» RE: Can someone help me out?
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: Can someone help me out?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Can someone help me out?
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: Can someone help me out?
Posted by: sirios
» RE: Can someone help me out? A salient question when...
Posted by: gazooks
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Posted by: citizenjoe on Sep 22, 2008 6:16 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Bastille Day for the USA
Posted by: hurricane hugo
» Documentation on fascism
Posted by: citizenjoe
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Posted by: GreyFoxThree on Sep 22, 2008 6:29 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jiff
Ultimate Anonymity
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Posted by: Patriot Acting on Sep 22, 2008 6:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: hagwind on Sep 22, 2008 6:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wish I could distill this article into a one- or even five-minute presentation that my friends and acquaintances would sit still and listen to. But keeping the global interconnections straight in my own head is challenging enough. So what I'm pondering is how to translate the macro picture down to the micro level. Joshua wrote:
If, as one definition holds, capitalism is all about maximizing efficiency, what happens when meaningful production becomes so efficient that the system ends up cranking out more goods than the population needs -- more than it can absorb?
One flip-side question is what do our jobs look like in a system that's hell-bent on "maximizing efficiency"? An awful lot of us are interchangeable cogs on assembly lines turning out "have it your way" burgers, or checkout lines at places like Wal-Mart. Another question: How does the system go about unloading those surplus goods it's created, the widgets, the cosmetics, the drugs, the political candidates? Marketing. Advertising. Persuading us we need this stuff by hammering home the message, day in, day out, that we're inadequate without it. Not only have these people degraded the environment, they've degraded the language by relentlessly using it to manipulate, insinuate, and come as close to lying as they can without getting busted.
The contemporary Republican Party has succeeded spectacularly at harnessing the utter amorality of Big Business to the religiosity of the religious Right. With one hand they're creating the problem -- a society in which whatever can't be measured in dollars has no value at all -- and with the other they're holding out a smoke-and-mirrors solution: "traditional family values" that pretty much ignore economic issues altogether. Neat trick as long as you can get away with it.
What I'm doing is pointing out that the unregulated free-for-all we've had since the early 1980s is basically like a big casino. If people want to gamble with dollars, fine; but these people are gambling with companies, countries, and, ultimately, human lives. Whether it's because of greed, testosterone, or adrenaline addiction, these people are out of control. Their concern for human life is on a par with that of your average drug kingpin or power-mad dictator. If they were your relatives, you'd be praying for their souls and trying to get them into rehab. If they were drug kingpins or power-mad dictators -- hey, don't we declare war on those guys?
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» RE: The casino junkies are running the world
Posted by: Lauren
» for an alternate view of economy
Posted by: Drclaw
Comments are closed-
Posted by: scheherezade on Sep 22, 2008 6:52 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The investor class likes sure things when it comes to putting real money on the long-term line.
After this unpleasantness dies down, I expect we'll be hearing loud calls for largescale privatizing of roads, bridges, power companies, water companies, etc.
Needless to say, with the enthusiastic approval of Dickbrain and Dumbcunt Redstate -- who also invite you to replace progressive income taxes with a regressive "Fair Tax" sales levy.
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Posted by: jdub on Sep 22, 2008 7:24 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Instead of railing against bail outs, better to put energies into electing a Democratic congress and president, rebuilding unions, and restoring a progressive taxation system.
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» RE: sounds like a threat
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: sounds like a threat
Posted by: Spot
» RE: sounds like a threat
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Don't let your ideology blind you...
Posted by: left_libertarian
Comments are closed-
Posted by: TJColatrella on Sep 22, 2008 7:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is referred to as Conservatism is nothing less than radical recklessness with an intent to defraud and embezzle from the American people,...it's never been anything else than that..!
Let's hope this will finally expose this fraud of Conservatism for the failed philosophy that it truly is..!
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» RE: Deregulation - HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS
Posted by: gellero1
» That makes no sense
Posted by: fanny666
» RE: The game of politics
Posted by: Lauren
» Regulation Standards........
Posted by: gellero1
» OPPS..here's the link
Posted by: gellero1
» Rightwing RUBBISH. Even Wall $treet can't deny that "deregulation" is a major cause.
Posted by: GrantBurkeVT
» RE: Deregulation - HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS
Posted by: hagwind
Comments are closed-
Posted by: gellero1 on Sep 22, 2008 7:50 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Isn't it true that Sen. Obama recieved their LARGEST campaign donations. ??
Isn't it true that The Clinton admin had the above institutions basically change the loan rules ( with pressure from the Black Caucus ) so the newly created 'sub prime market' was opened to people who could never be expected to pay ??
Please...........somebody............explain this to me, or correct me.
PS...........isn't Sen Biden well entrenched in banking circles?? They all are Delaware corporations.
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» RE: And the OBama Camp ??
Posted by: Quannah
» These companies give to both parties
Posted by: fanny666
» What's to explain?
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: What's to explain?
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Done and ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Done and ...
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» That doesn't make Mccain/Palin any better.
Posted by: GrantBurkeVT
» RE: And the OBama Camp ??
Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: And the OBama Camp ??
Posted by: Lauren
» "Delaware corporations"
Posted by: fanny666
» Here's some interesting info
Posted by: gellero1
» RE: Here's some interesting info
Posted by: fanny666
» A longer list!
Posted by: Beck
» OK..........but..............
Posted by: gellero1
» RE: OK..........but..............
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: A longer list!
Posted by: 6399
» RE: A longer list!
Posted by: nochicagoboys
Comments are closed-
Posted by: symcokid on Sep 22, 2008 7:55 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: solrev on Sep 22, 2008 8:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Tell me lies Tell me sweet little lies
Posted by: BigRon
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Posted by: Io on Sep 22, 2008 8:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dead Rats
Did you see what they were at
Sucking on a young man's blood
Wishing he could come, yeah
Sucking on a soldier's brain
Wishing it would be the same
Dead cat, dead rat, did you see what they were at
Fat cat in a top hat
Thinks he's an aristocrat
Thinks he can kill and slaughter
Thinks he can shoot my daughter
Dead cats, dead rats, think you're an aristocrat
Crap .... ha, that's crap
Jim Morrison, Ray Manzarek, John Densmore, Robby Krieger
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Posted by: sharloch on Sep 22, 2008 8:14 AM
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» RE: Shock doctrine framing at Nation magazine, it is everywhere.
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: X-POLYGAMIST WIFE on Sep 22, 2008 8:16 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
FLDS polygamists bankrupted the Ephraim Bank in Colorado City, AZ and cost Arizona taxpayers 13 million. Now the YFZ Ranch is costing Texas taxpayers millions.
Watch the video:
http://www.bankingonheaven.com
BANKING ON HEAVEN
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Sep 22, 2008 8:26 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The reason that these factors always seemed to be glossed-over when discussing the Great Depression is that they question the basic assumptions of the capitalist system itself. And that raising these questions amounts to some sort of religious heresy.
So it is with the MSM today. We get talking heads and pundits hehming and hawing on the media. But they don't want to "take the bull by the horns" and just come out and SAY IT that there are problems with the dog-eat-dog form of capitalism in the U.S.
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» RE: The Great Depression caused by unregulated speculation in financial markets.j
Posted by: Lauren
» Also, getting out of the depression didn't "just happen"
Posted by: fanny666
» According to Bernanke, the "Fed" CAUSED the Great Depression of 1929
Posted by: Mister_PsyOps
» Bernanke is wrong and so is Friedman. The Fed didn't cause the Great Depression.
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: fanny666 on Sep 22, 2008 8:43 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are basically 2 economies: the Real economy and the Speculative economy. Labor and Capital. The Real economy is goods and services, the speculative economy is investments. It's the Speculative economy that's in turmoil right now.
The Real economy actually CREATES capital. So, for example, the reason that a dozen eggs costs $2, but 3 scrambled eggs costs $3 is that labor went into it. Labor creates capital.
The speculative economy deals with existing capital, it does not create any capital. It certainly can benefit in the creation of capital- somebody lends you money so you can open up a breakfast restaurant and increase the value of eggs- but the speculation itself does not directly create capital ("increase economic growth" = "create capital"). An investor takes a risk- he's betting that you can scramble enough eggs (create enough capital) to pay back the loan, plus interest. One of the fundamental concepts of capitalism is supposed to be that the investor takes the risk, and he is responsible if it was a bad economic decision to take that risk. Also, the investor must actually have the capital he promises. So, if you ask for $10,000 to open up a breakfast place, the investor should not say "Well, I have 2 $5000 loans out right now, and when I get paid back, I'll have enough, so go ahead and pay for the restaurant and I'll give you the money when my loans come back."
Part of the "risk" is that those 2 loans might NOT come back, and therefore the $10,000 is not his to lend. That's the capital-to-leverage ratio. Lets say, the investor has $2000 on hand, is waiting on $10000 to come back, but gives you a $10000 loan anyways. 20000:2000 is a 10:1 ratio.
When Bear Stearns crashed, it had $11.1 billion in actual capital supporting $395 billion in assets, a leverage ratio of more than 35 to one. When Carlyle Capital crashed, it was levered at 32 to 1. And when Fannie and Freddie were finally taken over by the US Treasury; they were levered at 80 to 1, which is to say that they had a one dollar capital cushion for every $80 they had loaned out. (google the company's name and the words "leverage ratio" for sources)
You can't loan out money you don't have. That's called a "bubble in the speculative economy". And this is what deregulation allows. It been going on for a long long time, for example NIXON deregulated the money markets when he did away with the Bretton-Woods system. So you could buy Yen with Dollars and play the daily fluctuations- none of it based on REAL economics, just speculation.
So when you're making loans based on loans based on currency speculation, based on loans, that's a house of cards. One card goes, and you've got what the Financial Times calls a Global Financial Crisis. Lehman owned tons of Fannie mortgages, and those mortgages were insured by AIG. Every card in the house is connected.
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» RE: Some basic economics, to help explain what's going on (repost)
Posted by: windseye
» Labor creates Capital
Posted by: pdxjoe
» RE: Labor creates Capital
Posted by: Spot
» Investment Without Profit
Posted by: pdxjoe
» RE: Some basic economics, to help explain what's going on (repost)
Posted by: solrev
» RE: Some basic economics, to help explain what's going on (repost)
Posted by: sirios
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Posted by: jstepp590 on Sep 22, 2008 8:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Americans had realized that those were the regulations they wanted to deregulate we would never have done it. We're not stupid or brainwashed, like some of the mindless jackals up here seem to think in their pathetic arrogance. If we had understood what they meant by "deregulation" it never would have happened.
If they do not bring back those regulations, verbatum, I say Bush and his cronies can shove it and I hope the bailout fails.
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» Crash and burn
Posted by: leafsong1
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Posted by: Sojourner on Sep 22, 2008 9:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Congress should take the legislation that bailed out the Savings and Loans and apply it lock, stock, and barrel to investment banks and mortgage lenders. No, it is not perfect. But it will not rip us off and reduce us to slaves of Wall Street, as with Paulson's plan.
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» In case you hadn't noticed...
Posted by: leafsong1
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Posted by: NoMcCainPalin on Sep 22, 2008 9:09 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
John McCain -- OLD ideas, OLD solutions
If you think the above slogan has legs, please contact the Democratic National Committee with this link -- Contact DNC -- then copy & paste the bold text below into the Question box. NOTE: the link works slowly.
To help Senator Obama win in November, please use the following slogan in his TV ads: "John McCain -- OLD ideas, OLD solutions"
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» Great slogan, Person Who Is Not Hugh Scott!
Posted by: fanny666
» AlterNet pulled the McCain video clip, fanny. Any place else I can find it?
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin
» RE: AlterNet pulled the McCain video clip, fanny. Any place else I can find it?
Posted by: fanny666
» Chinese Proverb- "He who play with peanuts has solution in hand!"
Posted by: common intelligence
» It's obvious at the U.S. Naval Academy, midshipman McCain skipped the leadership classes.
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin
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Posted by: common intelligence on Sep 22, 2008 9:24 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
BUT NO COSIDERATION WAS GIVEN TO THEIR INSIGHT. That's because they were telling the truth and disrupting their plans.
The power structure as it is, same as the repuk political machine, their method of dealing with disrupters is to :redirect, deny, ignore, deceive, and lie, about anything that is contrary to their machine and its power stucture.
The simplicity, be it ever so nievely put is this.
IF you and your neighbors are broke, "Small" business is running on the edge, banks are broke, the Governement is broke....hey remember "Fort Knox?" etc.......where's all the money?
Well there is none! It's all paper that represents debt, not tangible wealth. And how in hell does Bush or any system Fed or who ever get away with telling any one "we're going to bail out " someone elses financial problem with money that doesn't exist?
That's like you or I going next door to a neighbor that's going to loose their house (which it isn't really "their house, but a contract to pay a debt") and tell them I'm going to take money from their other neighbor to bail them out of their debt, but you are going to have to pay for your own bail out.
It's all a gawd damn bait and switch pea game. It's faud to the highest degree of crime.
I can't get away with it and they can't either. These people are down and out right criminally faudulent.
That fact is the value of anything is only worth what it's tangible value is. It's the applied simple law of Thermodynamics.
simply put, you can't get something (energy) for nothing and it takes more energy to get any energy out of any system". The net gain, there is none."
The sad truth is all this mumbo jumbo "scambling for money" as they MS likes to put it, and the empty rethorical double talk is all about deception. It's slight of hand work to keep people believing a lie. That is the economic model that's been perpetuated since 1913 doesn't work and can't. That is unless some one loses.
I'll tell you this. As it is, if the government can't pay how in hell do people buy the idea that they will be able to pay. It ain't happenin' Jack! Besides how do people believe and how can the Bush machine
pay with money that doesn't exist.
It's all about paying debt with debt. This is going to stop.
Oh yah, back to that question: "what happened to Fort Knox? and what does it represent?" Oh and what about all that gold that was confinscated that was under the Twin Towers? eh?
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Posted by: nochicagoboys on Sep 22, 2008 9:29 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you for your fine editorial.
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» RE: A well-written exposé of what has happened.
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: A well-written exposé of what has happened.
Posted by: nochicagoboys
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Posted by: wjfaust on Sep 22, 2008 9:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My only caution is even bringing up the notion of human greed--even as an immediate cause. Humans are what they are. When systems are poorly designed, it isn't difficult to find the human "components" that will cause the system to "misbehave". By bringing it up, however, some will assume the problems can be solved by "replacing greedy people with good people". There are very few Ray Andersons in the world.
As your article clearly points out, these are deep rooted in systemic issues, not greed issues.
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» Human Greed
Posted by: pdxjoe
» Greed vs. institutional design
Posted by: fanny666
» a CEO's legal obligation to maximize profit
Posted by: pdxjoe
» Good point.
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Systemic indeed
Posted by: leafsong1
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Posted by: Ahimsa on Sep 22, 2008 10:33 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I mean, this is the big blow, right?
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» RE: Where is the tipping point?
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Where is the tipping point?
Posted by: nochicagoboys
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Posted by: chorton on Sep 22, 2008 10:34 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Determined to prevent or postpone the next depression, the "overlords" and their economic managers have allowed debt, obligations and other claims on real material wealth to accumulate to fantastic, unprecedented levels. There is no precedent in American history for such a mountain of fictitious value or its inevitable collapse, but perhaps the fabled meltdown of the German economy in 1923 may hold some lessons for us.
The struggle to manage the collapse and restart the economy will be messy and brutal. Every dollar of debt or obligation, public or private, is someone else's "property". The economy could be restarted by wiping it all out, by decree or by hyperinflation, but the owners of the debt will fight tooth and nail against any move in that direction. The question for everyone will be: at whose expense will this crisis be worked out?
Already, a foreshadowing of this struggle can be seen in the debates in Congress. Can we get the government to act for us to prevent mass starvation, mass homelessness, the interruption of essential services? To bail out the people and preserve our buying power, put people to work doing things that need to be done? Or will the super rich prevail, salvaging their position by plundering the remaining public assets, opening wide the faucet for tax money flowing directly into their pockets and starving the people? Will they be able to crush our resistance with police, vigilantes and concentration camps, diverting us with wars and manufactured threats?
This is nothing less than a revolutionary crisis, and I fear that we, the American people and those who would lead us, are in no way prepared for it. The last depression and the lessons learned from it is beyond living memory and even the children of those who lived through it are growing old. The radical leadership of the working class, built and tempered through a century of struggle, was largely smashed in the '50's, its legacy and hard-won wisdom nearly forgotten outside of a segment of the labor movement and some college history departments.
The working people have bought wholesale into the idea that there is no working class in America, that we are all "middle class", except for the poor, "illegals" and others "not like us", who are seen as threats. With unions legally hamstrung and representing only 7% of the private workforce, and with maybe 98% of the people getting their news from the corporate media, most of us experience our local struggles and hardships as if we were alone and outnumbered. This makes us very vulnerable to lies and distractions, unable to focus on our real interests or to see who our real enemies are.
We need to learn fast, and let go of our illusions and excuses for inaction. We need to get much more organized fast, and get our hands dirty with the hard work or organizing in our neighborhoods and workplaces. And we will have to get our communication lines with the millions up and running, fast. The mass media will be worse than no help at all.
We urgently need a solid analysis of what is happening and why and where we might be headed to guide us. But it must be a useful tool, relevant to the challenges we face, one that guides us in building unity, one that helps us think strategically and build winning alliances. Notice which thinkers - such as Joshua Holland - exemplify this, and share and discuss their work! If anyone still doubts that this is becoming a fight for survival, it's wake-up time!
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» The Middle-Class is Working Class
Posted by: pdxjoe
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Posted by: jaylindberg@hotmail.com on Sep 22, 2008 11:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A far as the housing bubble goes that is really not what happened. It is more like a finance bubble and the flip side of the housing mess when the feds raised interest rates to 20% in the late seventies. Those interest rates depressed housing values of decade in America.
This housing "bubble" was created by 30, 48, and 60 month adjustable, negative amortized, 1% mortgages. (Sub-prime mortgages) Borrowers were qualified for these loans at the 1% interest rates and the loans rolled over to adjustable rate laons in 30, 48 or 60 months. Of course, these loans were sold off to investors. Financial instruments like these artificially inflated real estate values at greater than a trillion dollars a year for much of this decade. As long as everyone was making lots of money, the industry and America ignored a fundamental reality. They were creating a bubble economy that was not sustainable.
This bubble has been bursting for over a year, but there are still quite a few bubbles left to burst. Here are a few of them.
1)We have a Federal deficit that now will exceed 10 trillion dollars we will never be able to pay back.
2)We have most expensive and inefficient health care system on the planet that requires deficit spending to fund.
3) We have a trade deficit in the 800 billion dollar a year range that is unsustainable and responsible for a huge chunk of this mess we are in today.
4) We have an oil bubble that overestimated global oil reserves by over 600 billion barrels. Those reserve figures represent over 80% of oil based energy stock values.
5) Our military budget and infrastructure investments associated with it is larger than the rest of the world combined. It is not sustainable.
6) Closer to home- A 200 billion dollar a year drug war (a war we forget about that has now costed over 2 trillion dollars) in America and produced the highest drug abuse rates in the industrial world.
7) A nuclear waste disposal bill we have pawned off on the government that will cost at least a trillion dollars to clean up properly. (Of course the money isn't there either.)
I'm sure there are a lot more examples just like infrastructure investments and environmental concerns we need to deal with but my point is this.
The bubbles are bursting and the lies associated with them will have to be dealt with. Our future will not be a pretty one.
I believe this country will have to go bankrupt before it gets fixed. Of course there are no promises that will fix these problems either.
Jay Lindberg
jaylindberg@hotmail.com
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Posted by: NoMcCainPalin on Sep 22, 2008 11:43 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is no doubt in my mind now that Bill wants Obama to lose the election so his wife can run again in 2012.
For readers who have forgotten what President Clinton is all about, he's the self-serving, womanizing, greedy bastard who pushed NAFTA and took $500,000 from the Arabs for a weekend's work lobbying for Dubai's takeover of our major seaports.
The slimy son of a bitch should crawl back to Hope, Arkansas, and hide under a rock where he belongs.
-----------------------------------------------
John McCain -- OLD ideas, OLD solutions
If you think the above slogan has legs, please contact the Democratic National Committee with this link -- Contact DNC -- then copy & paste the bold text below into the Question box. NOTE: the link works slowly.
To help Senator Obama win in November, please use the following slogan in his TV ads: "John McCain -- OLD ideas, OLD solutions"
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Posted by: leafsong1 on Sep 22, 2008 12:45 PM
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Posted by: leafsong1 on Sep 22, 2008 12:51 PM
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Posted by: PaulK on Sep 22, 2008 12:55 PM
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Step 1: the city or state sells the water works to a private investor (for $150 cash).
Step 2: the rent for the water works skyrockets. In real life the company can charge anything it wants for its monopoly, provided it has bribed or has pressured the public utilities commission. A monopoly can always bill the town fire department a dollar a gallon if it can work out the details. Who else is the fire department going to turn to for water?
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Posted by: leafsong1 on Sep 22, 2008 12:59 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Disgusting Democrats in Congress
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Disgusting Democrats in Congress
Posted by: leafsong1
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Posted by: Cybershaman on Sep 22, 2008 1:39 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The American worker has been forced to reduce their expenditures to the basic necessities and an economy structured around 'consumerism' cannot continue to thrive under these conditions.
The price for those basic necessities has been inflated far more than any other aspect of the economy but this is not recognized because all goods are lumped together in our GDP. The American consumer is bankrupt, the system is bankrupt, welcome to the Soviet Union!
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» Overproduction means that there is not sufficient effective demand to purchase what was produced.
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: vangogh69 on Sep 22, 2008 2:25 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: I'm livid...You Are Not Alone My Friend
Posted by: left_libertarian
» AGREE!!!
Posted by: thistleblower
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Posted by: yellow on Sep 22, 2008 2:49 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The McCain tax cuts will worsen deficits and perhaps cause a bigger financial meltdown. We need progressive taxation and a spending program for full employment to resolve the crisis and relieve the current chronic stagnation of US capitalism.
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Posted by: Sharkie on Sep 22, 2008 4:15 PM
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Nobody in their right mind should want anything to do with the old economy.R.I.P.
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Posted by: ProgressiveReb on Sep 22, 2008 4:37 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Progressive Future has a great online action that allows you to send an email directly to Pelosi telling her that, if we are going to hand over $700 billion, we need to demand:
* Better oversight and regulation of financial markets.
* Help for the people who are struggling to stay in their homes.
* No "golden parachutes" for the CEOs of failed corporations that benefit from the bailout.
You can find the email action here - it’s quick and simple.
Please sign it today. Don't let them push this massive, historic bailout through without the consideration it deserves and the changes that must be made to safeguard the interests of the American people.
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» RE: Use This to Tell Pelosi -- No Blank Checks!!
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Pelosi Is Human Garbage
Posted by: left_libertarian
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Posted by: Jeanne on Sep 22, 2008 5:02 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Get-out-of-jail-free card
Posted by: badkitty
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Posted by: jackyD on Sep 22, 2008 5:41 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: cori on Sep 22, 2008 5:55 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
email or call 202 224 3121 and give them hell!
Because we are in the midst of a financial collapse we must cut back on the extravagant military spending that we have been indulging in for so many years. We need to cut back on the money that is paid to private companies that that supply everything form food to toilet paper to arms to many of the 761 bases around the world. We have more bases then all the nations combined in history. We need to stop funding the private companies in Iraq and Afganistan. We need to get the hell out of Iraq and make the oil companies pay for their own private armies. We need to cut funding to drug companies and arms manufacturers. We need to raise revenues by not spending so much and that does not mean cutting vital life support systems to all of us like Social Security and Medicare and Medicade. We need to stop paying those who have robbed us blind.
We need to raise caps on Social Security, restore the capital gains tax, get rid of tax cuts for the very rich, cut back on some of the 761 bases around the world that we pay for and not pay for private corporate armies like Blackwater at the very least. And we need to do what they do in the UK and that is tax 50 cents on every stock transaction. That's how they raise billions.
So get off your sorry U know what and speak out.
We need to create laws that force companies to stay here or else their products won't be sold here. We need to tax products coming from China.
There are many, many ways to raise revenues without rapping us.
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Posted by: beeden on Sep 22, 2008 6:24 PM
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Posted by: gellero1 on Sep 22, 2008 6:41 PM
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Posted by: civilsociety on Sep 22, 2008 7:33 PM
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From real estate agents, to mortgage brokers, to title insurance to investment houses, to banks, to real estate lawyers to developers to the govt.
And the guy who only wants to call a place his own has had to pay every troll along the way his cut before getting to pay off something for himself.
I want bailed out too. I want 450 for my house and I will leave this country so fast it would make your head spin. Any takers? Please someone buy me out so I can get out of here.
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Posted by: aonghus36 on Sep 22, 2008 9:26 PM
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Posted by: ReallyBearish on Sep 23, 2008 6:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: A big compliment to Josh
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: bubbabuddha on Sep 24, 2008 2:06 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Since regulated markets produced these outcomes we need to acknowledge that and make moves that would free up a market for everyone, not just movers and shakers in NY and WDC. I think they mean THEY enjoy the benefit of a free market while we have to accept a million regulations just set up a small business.
We have a black market economy, supported by illegal drug trade and various other means. Your stock portfolio, your retirement goes up because of the enormous risk and profit in black markets. Until we end the holocaust on drug users we will see a distorted market. Clearly there are markets that exist and are desired, while at the same time overly regulated policy making chokes honest business and people's abilities to start up a business in the first place. So much intervention and yet so very little ever gets said about such a structure maybe being the fault of such speculative bubbles and such outragous industries being created to profit off other people's transgressions.
MOst professions clearly need to disable people to stay in business. Disabling professions make us all serfs in the short and long term. If the only profit lies in jailing and criminalizing everyone soon there will be no way to survive or make a living with everyone set out to get each other. These overly broad regulatory agencies have clearly made every effort to blame liberty as the entire cause of these problems. These problems were created in a overly regulated situation, let these people that made thee mistakes pay the price for it, not me or anybody that would be forced to pay them, that maybe called robbery when you or I do such but a bailout when elites do such? I say it looks like state regulated fraud, maybe we should vote them out for starters and send up a new amendment to the constitution stipulating the meaning of a "free society" and a "free market" rather then this shell game being propagandized as a version of "freedom" when it merely looks as if they are consolidating the wealth into their pots.
As George Carlin would say, the "owners" of this country want more for themselves.
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Posted by: Azshiva on Sep 24, 2008 2:47 AM
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Posted by: mtaron on Sep 25, 2008 10:50 AM
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Add the following proposal to the bailout package. It is based on the idea that if we (taxpayors) buy failing mortgages & derivative debt products, the companies who are "up stream", those who sold the various derived products, benefit by not being forced to pay up on the swap/insurance/hedge due to the fact that we have bought these with the intention to keep the default snow ball from rolling down the hill (aka create a fire break).
If the upstream beneficiaries can be identified, they can be required to make monthly payments to us (U.S. Treasury) in return for our not allowing the product they received revenue on when they sold it to fail causing them to immediately be forced to pay up the total potential (notional) value and thereby being forced into bankruptcy. It would be painful to them, but might allow them to survive. If they don't survive, they will die slowly rather than immediately. If that happens, they are responsible anyway.
This seems workable and imminently fair in return for our saving their hides to keep them from dying & falling on top of the entire world economy.
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Posted by: Democritus on Sep 25, 2008 11:53 AM
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Posted by: DrDon on Sep 25, 2008 5:06 PM
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Remember the Keating 5!
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Posted by: uncleeddie on Sep 26, 2008 6:13 AM
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Posted by: grkjr on Sep 26, 2008 8:52 AM
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Posted by: SunevaLightfoot on Sep 26, 2008 3:08 PM
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There are a lot of players responsible for this mess we are in - including those who refuse to live within their means instead of feeding this greed machine.
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Posted by: Lifesabeach on Sep 27, 2008 9:32 PM
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I call on you to consider the American people as your number one priority in any plans to bail out Wall Street in your current negotiations to solve America’s financial crisis.
Not only do I urge you to pass legislation with sensible checks and balances that protect the public as hundreds of billions of our taxpayer dollars are used to address the crisis, but in addition I ask for some common sense to be part of this package.
I believe we need some emergency legislation that removes the power from global corporations and gives America back to its people!
1. BROKER A DEAL WITH AMERICA’S WEALTHIEST INDIVIDUALS – The 20 Richest Americans, [per www.forbes.com]
a. This group of people have made their money on the backs of Americans and could in turn help America’s future by forming a group who could loan these companies private money, with the hopes of profiting in the future without the same risk of the average American taxpayer.
b. They are proven successful businessmen/women and could form a board of governance/financial management over this problem that would be far more successful than entrusting $700 billion dollars with Henry Paulson.
2. HELP MAINSTREET FREEZE FORECLOSURES -
a. This should have been done in January 2007 when the subprime mortgage industry began crashing as people’s Adjustable Rate Mortgages first began to cause foreclosures. It is not too late!
3. NEW TYPE OF HOMESTEAD ACT: RETURN ALL AMERICANS BACK TO THEIR HOMES IF THEY WERE ALREADY FORECLOSED UPON:
a. The American government can step in by providing an emergency HOMESTEAD ACT. Soften the economic blow on Americans and reinstall confidence. Prevent a new wave of American slums for the folks who once belonged to the American middle class and a surge of homelessness and the economic depression.
b. American’s can pay their debt back through a system similar to Ameri-Corp.
4. FIXING ALL MORTGAGE RATES AT ONE FLAT RATE TEMPORARILY –
a. Give every American homeowner a fixed rate of 3-4% that is affordable. Mortgage companies can still make money, but there is no need for CEO’s to make up to 400 times the amount of their average worker!
b. Gives all Americans a financial break that eases inflation in all other areas and stretches their paychecks. Stimulates the housing market, solves clogged credit problem.
5. REGULATE ALL MORTGAGES WITH A PLAN TO REDUCE SOME RESTRICTIONS LATER –
a. Emergency legislation - regulate all mortgages temporarily as the government provides a fixed rate - buys time -stabilizes economy.
b. Craft long-range regulatory legislation that would replace the emergency plan as the economy stabilizes.
6. PROVIDE AN EMERGENCY EMPLOYMENT PLAN FOR AMERICAN WORKERS –
a. Create green energy jobs to remove our dependence on foreign oil.
7. ESTABLISH A TRUE LIVING WAGE SCALE-
a. Raise minimum wage to equal TRUE cost of living.
b. Place a cap on CEO wages [in a way that provides no loopholes]- pass legislation requiring companies to pay workers a fair living wage - give tax breaks to CEO’s who create the best benefit packages, work environments, highest compensation for their workers.
c. Provide tax breaks to corporations who provide full medical/retirement benefits - add taxes to corporations who do not, thus once again encouraging corporations to care for their employees holistically.
8. END WAR IN IRAQ - USE MONEY SAVED TO CREATE JOBS -IMPROVE EDUCATION
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Posted by: xvet on Sep 29, 2008 2:26 AM
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xvet
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Posted by: cwyatt on Oct 5, 2008 1:23 PM
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