COMMENTS: 84
The Military-Leisure Golf Complex
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Back in 1975, Senator William Proxmire (D-Wisconsin) decried the fact that the Department of Defense spent nearly $14 million each year to maintain and operate 300 military-run golf courses scattered across the globe. In 1996, the weekly television series America's Defense Monitor noted that "Pentagon elites and high government officials [were still] tee-ing off at taxpayer expense" at some "234 golf courses maintained by the U.S. armed forces worldwide." In the intervening twenty-one years, despite a modest decrease in the number of military golf courses, not much had changed. The military was still out on the links. Today, the military claims to operate a mere 172 golf courses worldwide, suggesting that over thirty years after Proxmire's criticisms, a modicum of reform has taken place. Don't believe it.
In actuality, the military has cooked the books. For example, the Department of Defense reported that the U.S. Air Force operates 68 courses. A closer examination indicates that the DoD counts the 3 separate golf courses, a total of fifty-four holes, at Andrews Air Force Base in Washington, D.C., as 1 course. The same is true for the navy, which claims 37 courses (including facilities in Guam, Italy, and Spain) but counts, for example, its Admiral Baker Golf Course in San Diego, which boasts 2 eighteen-hole courses, as a single unit. Similarly, while the DoD claims that the army operates 56 golf facilities, it appears that this translates into no fewer than 68 actual courses, stretching from the U.S. to Germany, Japan, and South Korea.
Moreover, some military golf facilities are mysteriously missing from all lists. In 2005, according to the Pentagon, the U.S. military operated courses on twenty-five bases overseas.
A closer look, however, indicates that the military apparently forgot about some of its golf courses -- especially those in unsavory or unmentionable locales. Take the unlisted eighteen-hole golf course -- where hot-pink balls are used so as not to lose them in the barren terrain -- at the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Also absent is the army's Tournament Players Club, a golf course built, in 2003, by army personnel in Mosul, Iraq. Another forgotten course can be found in the Republic of the Marshall Islands, at Kwajalein, a little-discussed island filled with missile and rocket launchers and radar equipment that serves as the home of the U.S. Army's Ronald Reagan Ballistic Missile Defense Test Site. Similarly unlisted is a nine-hole golf course located on the shadowy island of Diego Garcia, a British Indian Ocean Territory occupied by the U.S. military and long suspected as the site of one of the CIA's post-9/11 secret "ghost" prisons. But even courses not operating on secret sites, in war zones, or near prisons and possible torture centers have been conveniently lost. For example, while the Pentagon lists the navy's Admiral Nimitz Golf Course in Barrigada, Guam, in its inventory of overseas courses, it seems to have skipped Andersen Air Force Base's eighteen-hole Palm Tree Golf Course, also on the island. And you'd think the Pentagon would be proud of the USAF's island links; after all, it was the runner-up, in 2002, for the title of "Guam's Most Beautiful Golf Course."
Whatever the true number of the military's courses, at least some of them are distinctly sprucing up their grounds. Take the Eaglewood Golf Courses at Langley Air Force Base in Virginia. In 2004, the Pentagon paid out more than $352,000 to George Golf Design to refurbish its two courses (known as "the Raptor" and "the Eagle"). George Golf Design considerately worked on the courses one at a time, so that local duffers would not be left linkless. This was of critical importance since if both courses were out of commission, Virginia would have been left with only nine military golf facilities (navy, five; army,three; Marine Corps, one) with a total of fourteen courses.
Even though the military operates so many courses, apparently these still aren't enough to satisfy the insatiable golfing appetites of the armed forces -- at least judging by the number of golf resorts to which the Pentagon paid out American tax dollars in 2004. For instance, the Del Lago Golf Resort and Conference Center, in San Antonio, Texas, which offers an "18-hole championship golf course home to some of the region's most challenging and beautiful holes," received over $19,000, and the Lakeview Golf Resort and Spa in Morgantown, West Virginia, which boasts "two championship golf courses," received $16,416 from the army in 2004. When asked what exactly the army was up to at Lakeview, a resort spokesperson declined to "disclose any information" and stated that she was "unable to confirm activities" of the military at the resort if, in fact, they occurred at all. At the Arizona Golf Resort and Conference Center in Mesa, Arizona, which boasts "fine accommodations, great dining and a host of amenities, including a championship golf course, surrounded by beautifully maintained grounds," the army dropped a cool $48,620 in 2004. That resort wasn't, however, the top recipient of military funds among Arizona golf resorts.
That year, according to DoD documents, the U.S. Army paid $71,614 to the Arizona Golf Resort -- located in sunny Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. A Saudi homage to the American Southwest that claims to offer the "only residential western expatriate golf resort in Riyadh with activities for all ages," the resort actually boasts an entire entertainment complex, complete with a water-slide-enhanced megapool, gym, bowling alley, horse stables, roller hockey rink, arcade, amphitheater, restaurant, and even a cappuccino bar -- not to mention the golf course and a driving range. It's the perfect spot, in the so-called arc of instability, for military folks to play a few rounds with other Westerners. For those in the Persian Gulf who prefer their links on a smaller scale, there are also miniature golf courses at such military bases as Ahmed Al Jaber Air Base and at Camp Doha, both located in Kuwait, Balad Air Base in Iraq, and the air force'sbase at Eskan Village, near Riyadh Air Base, in Saudi Arabia. But minigolf isn't the only activity for duffers stationed at Eskan. In 2002, the U.S. General Accounting Ofce investigated "seemingly unneeded expenditures" by the military and found that $5,333 had been spent on "golf passes" for folks from Eskan Village.
In fact, the GAO reported: "Air Force units purchased several golf items during their deployments to Southwest Asia that included a golf cart for $35,000, a corporate golf membership at $16,000 ... and a golf club/bag set costing nearly $1,500." The military's ardent love affair with golf carts hardly ended with that $35,000 model. In 2004 alone, according to the Pentagon's own documents, the DoD paid $6,860 to Golf Car Company, $6,900 to Golf Cars of Riverside, $9,322 to Golf Cars of Louisiana, $16,741 to Southern Golf Cars, and a whopping $37,964 to Golf Car Specialties. Similarly, in 2006, two golf cart concerns were paid a combined $58,644 by the DoD, while a German golf-equipment supplier, Continental Golf Associates, received more than $88,000 from the Pentagon.
Despite base closures and the work of committed environmental and community groups, which have thinned out some of the military's links, the Department of Defense continues to exhibit an obsession with golf, golf carts, and, above all, golf courses. Apologists, both within and outside of the military, often counter criticisms of DoD golf expenditures by claiming that military golf courses are not simply a drain on taxpayer money but revenue earners, through greens fees.
They, however, never make mention of the fact that these facilities are located on public land and pay no taxes; that they require funds for security; and that in all likelihood the public pays for the roads, water, and electric lines that service the courses -- sore points raised by former Arizona senator Dennis DeConcini in the mid-1990s when Andrews Air Force Base was sinking $5.1 million into its third course. (If the DoD really wanted to raise revenues, it would sell its courses. For example, the army's Garmisch, Kornwestheim, and Heidelberg golf courses in Germany are worth, says the DoD, $6.6 million, $13.3 million, and $16.5 million, respectively, while the DoD's Sungnam golf course in the Republic of Korea is reportedly valued at $26 million.)
Such a defense also fails to address why the Pentagon is in the golf course business in the first place. According to its officially stated mission, the DoD engages in war-fighting, humanitarian, peacekeeping, evacuation, and homeland-security missions and, says the Pentagon, provides "the military forces needed to deter war and to protect the security of the United States. Everything we do supports that primary mission." How, exactly, golf courses ensure that primary mission is a little murky, especially since the United States has more than 8,100 public courses and over 3,500 semiprivate courses (that allow some access to nonmembers). A more apt explanation is the fact that when it comes to golf, like much else, the Pentagon does what it wants, no matter who gets tee'd off.
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Posted by: EJW on Apr 12, 2008 2:21 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» It's much more than golf courses
Posted by: Lector
» RE: Don't forget [I never will,best years of my life]
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: Suzon on Apr 12, 2008 3:46 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Taxpayers don't really relate that much to the extravagances of the elite self-pampering class, but to your average struggling-not-to-go-under person there is a clear injustice in our our paying not just our "fair share" but his!
Parents and vulnerable people have been sent to prison for not paying this flat tax. (Again, at taxpayers' expense, including foster care for the kids.)
I wonder what authority Blair relied on to evade the tax? Would love to see him in prison for it.
As for the article here, it's basically about monarchical privileges even if the deception and concealment are supposedly an outcome of "democratic" government. Don't kid yourselves. King George and Queen Elizabeth are in fact cousins.
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» RE: excellent research but the petty theft by the elite can be even more galling
Posted by: mainspark
» RE: hi, mainspark, the golf courses are a symptom, not the source of the disease
Posted by: DropTheOBomb
» RE: hi, mainspark, the golf courses are a symptom, not the source of the disease
Posted by: Cybershaman
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Posted by: dancingcloud on Apr 12, 2008 4:49 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» The water table under the Coachella Valley
Posted by: Artkansas
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Posted by: heysailor on Apr 12, 2008 6:34 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have a problem with the current military posture because the uniforms sometimes get lost in a sea of contractors and sandcrabs (civilian employees) that often work at cross-purposes. Originally, the Morale, Welfare, and Recreation (MWR) System was set up for the uniforms. Civilian employees and retirees were granted access afterward.
Civilian employees and the relentless push toward outside contractors have a lot to do with the too-high and bloated military budget. Way too little money actually ends up getting to the troops or protects us. That's a speech for another day. But those civilians and contractors (called "guests" on the course) clog things up for everyone else and in most stateside locations they could golf elsewhere but they also make the courses more cost-efficient by keeping utilization up. A double-edged sword to be sure.
When a Sailor buys a soda at the gedunk (soda bar) that Sailor is contributing to the MWR fund that largely pays for not only golf courses but base libraries and other recreational activities - often with non-traditional hours to meet the needs of military patrons.
Many of these facilities are not duplicated near-by on "the beach" (off-base) and, like MWR golf courses, they don't charge on a sliding scale based on rank and the junior golfer would pay just as much as the more affluent senior golfer. Not all fees for all MWR facilities are ranked based but many are. Sound progressive to you?
Many of these facilities are on bases literally in the middle of nowhere. Like Guantanamo - before it became a prison it was a naval training facility, ideal because of its remoteness. That golf course is far worse than portrayed here. The rough is sword grass many feet high, you never use your own clubs because the fairways are gravel and the only greens are a small patch around each hole - a very small patch. They even give you a BUCKET of balls because you will now doubt go through a dozen or more.
Where I have a problem is with the Taxpayer's Savior - privatization. Selling off these golf courses, or housing or whatever, solves nothing but to make the facility less accountable to its patrons. Market forces are irrelevant.
Where else I have a problem is that in an effort to cut costs, the facilities in the hinterlands will be closed but you will never see a facility in Washington closed. Too many GS and military big shots. And the concentration of high-ranking retirees is a big factor, too. Members in Kwajalein don't have many other options and there aren't many golf courses in Germany.
People in the services themselves largely pay for MWR operating expenses. They are grossly overworked doing the job of protecting us all - regardless of the political merits of anything the current Administration does.
I regret the separation between the military and the civilians we protect. Few of us know anyone in the military, have any respect or regard for what they do, or even care. I do have a solution for breaking down that wall: Bring back the draft. Until everyone, male and female, regardless of economic status, takes their turn protecting the rights that we all enjoy, we will continue to have a less-than-perfect union.
I'm sure there are points I've not addressed and that someone with three hours, a fair amount of (righteous) indignation, and a bone to pick will try to tear this to pieces but, then again, thank a veteran for preserving your freedom of speech. You were born with it and I defended your right to it.
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» RE: Not a Fair Slam
Posted by: thealltheone
» Bravo! A voice of reason
Posted by: jiclemens
» And Bravo to you, too!
Posted by: surferboy2001
» RE: And Bravo to you, too!
Posted by: heysailor
» RE: Bravo! A voice of reason
Posted by: heysailor
» RE: Not a Fair Slam
Posted by: kiel
» RE: Not a Fair Slam
Posted by: heysailor
» RE: Not a Fair Slam
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Not a Fair Slam
Posted by: particle
» RE: Not a Fair Slam
Posted by: heysailor
» RE: Not a Fair Slam
Posted by: particle
» RE: Not a Fair Slam
Posted by: raywigton
» RE: Not a Fair Slam
Posted by: heysailor
» It's A Fair Slam, $41 Billion Just for Uniformed Retirees Last Year
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: It's A Fair Slam, $41 Billion Just for Uniformed Retirees Last Year
Posted by: heysailor
» RE: It's A Fair Slam, $41 Billion Just for Uniformed Retirees Last Year
Posted by: heysailor
» RE: It's A Fair Slam, $41 Billion Just for Uniformed Retirees Last Year
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: It's A Fair Slam, $41 Billion Just for Uniformed Retirees Last Year
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» Free Speech?
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Free Speech?
Posted by: e rice
» RE: Free Speech?
Posted by: heysailor
» are you sure you meant 'dboy'?
Posted by: e rice
» RE: are you sure you meant 'dboy'?
Posted by: heysailor
» Not that unfair but the focus is wrong
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
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Posted by: Moore Hognutz on Apr 12, 2008 8:06 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A few months ago, I poll-watched at a local mayoral election. Another man poll-watched for the other side. The other man described himself as "a conservative" This might be good, thinks me.
"What do you mean by 'conservative'. Fiscal conservative? Social conservative?"
He smiled. Pleasant fellow. "Just conservative," he said.
"Like George Bush?"
"I like George Bush"
"I'm more conservative than George Bush. He's a bomb-dropping radical and he spends your money faster than he can make it, and he's running that printing press 24/7."
But the shrewd fellow would not be badgered into a discussion. "I dunno," he said. "I'm conservative."
Turned out he was in real estate. Land. His career. Buying and selling God's green earth. He was doing well.
Mostly you don't get to be a colonel or general because you're a fine pistol shot or a noted horseback. Or even if you read, think, and breath global strategy. Fine tenor voices don't make much in the plus column, either. But if you play golf well, modestly rolling over God's green earth in an electrical conveyance, you might do well...
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» "Stay close to your desks, and never go to sea"
Posted by: PaulK
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Posted by: HeKnew on Apr 12, 2008 8:52 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Direct Democracy
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Apr 12, 2008 9:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Either the DoD is cheating or the reporter is misinformed.
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» RE: Someone is Lying
Posted by: e rice
» DOD can be sneaky
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Someone is Lying
Posted by: larryfhilton
» RE: Someone is Lying
Posted by: ohb0b
» But --- not the locals.
Posted by: EJW
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Posted by: e rice on Apr 12, 2008 9:53 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
comparatively speaking, these amounts are miniscule. golf courses are unimportant compared to mismanaged research projects, soldiers denied medical care, or the nearly complete lack of competence, honesty and leadership in the upper levels of command.
when enlisted military personnel have their former benefits reinstated (support the troops--pay them a living wage!), when women are safe from their comrades-in-arms' sexual abuse, when the top brass start protecting their own from political idiocy, then i'll try to work up some concern about military golf courses.
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» RE: my problem with this article
Posted by: willymack
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Posted by: sofla100 on Apr 12, 2008 11:08 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» enlisted pay is so wonderful
Posted by: e rice
» double dipping
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: double dipping
Posted by: scoder
» PAY EXAMPLES
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: Milking the System
Posted by: heysailor
» RE: Milking the System
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: Milking the System
Posted by: robbie.seal
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Posted by: drjasonmd on Apr 12, 2008 6:33 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It should also be pointed out that almost all military bases have a bowling alley, a gym, a swimming pool, an auto hobby shop, a library, a movie theater (though they usually only show one show per week as the reels are rotated from base to base), and many offer things such as pottery classes, martial arts classes, etc. In many countries (Japan stands out in my memory), MWR services were the only recreation that we had any chance to afford.
While golf is mostly an elite activity in the civillian world due to its cost, that really doesn't hold true within the military world. Golf was a common family activity for officers and enlisted alike. I agree that the privatization of recreational services on military bases should be examined (most military personnel would probably agree as the services got more expensive with reduced quality in many cases). The fact that such activities are made available to our troops and their families is one of the perks for taking life-threatening jobs far away from home for what is mostly below minimum wage (at least for enlisted personnel on a per hour basis).
As for the number of courses, you can play those numbers how you want. While it is true that some courses have 36 or even 54 holes (which the author feels should be counted as 2 or 3 seperate courses), most were very small par 3 courses with only 9 holes (which by his logic, should only count as 1/4 of a course). If you applied that counting method across the board, I don't think the numbers would change very much.
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Posted by: willymack on Apr 12, 2008 7:28 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Let's talk about golf
Posted by: Lector
» And he's proud of it????????
Posted by: EJW
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Posted by: sofla100 on Apr 12, 2008 7:59 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Base: $1631/month
BAS: $280/month
BAH when stationed on Camp Pendleton: $1409/month
Tax savings: $166/month
AAFES savings: $27/month
Gasoline savings: $11/month
Uniform allowance: $371/year
————————————-
Total Pay: $42,659/year
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» RE: Pay and Benefits
Posted by: e rice
» RE: Pay and Benefits
Posted by: raywigton
» RE: Pay and Benefits
Posted by: e rice
» RE: Pay and Benefits
Posted by: robbie.seal
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Posted by: politicky on Apr 12, 2008 8:38 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
U.S. Military’s War on the Earth
...The world’s largest polluter, the U.S. military, generates 750,000 tons of toxic waste material annually, more than the five largest chemical companies in the U.S. combined...
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» RE: politicky
Posted by: heysailor
» RE: politicky
Posted by: robbie.seal
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Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Apr 12, 2008 9:20 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I say the more generals and and top ranking officers play Golf the less time they have to commit acts of carnage and turn world opinion against us..
Since they won't go after bin-Laden or Zawahiri let them play golf..and make deals and apply for jobs with major contractors for when they get out of the service..that's all they're good for..
An kissing Bush's ass..!
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» RE: "Stay the Course..!"
Posted by: heysailor
» RE: "Stay the Course..!"
Posted by: TJ-stars4peace
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Posted by: larryfhilton on Apr 13, 2008 12:42 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: sofla100 on Apr 13, 2008 1:57 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now, I know several posters have written in order to point out that the hazards of military life should justify the pay/benefits. I would say that could be true and is true for those now in Iraq, but much depends on the service and where stationed. But, the broader question should be why is it in America that kids only seem to have the military as a viable option coming out of high school? Wal-Mart and MD's won't pay them worth crap or give them any real benefits. But, the military will. This is what is really pathetic. As for occupational hazards, you can work some pretty risky jobs in the civilian sector, such as being a security guard in a rough part of town, yet you will be paid next to nothing and have no health insurance.
Bottom line, it's America that is screwed up in her priorities. We have no effective or viable job training programs for kids coming out of high school. Many cannot afford college. We need programs like FDR initiated, public works programs and massive job training programs. We need college education paid for like it is in Europe. The kids shouldn't only see the military as their only option. They shouldn't just have to fight and die in Iraq for nothing and for GW Bush.
Lastly, for those pro-military, don't bellyache too much. Your pay and benefits aren't that bad. Also, don't yelp when poor people get some help or programs from the government. Don't complain America wants socialized medicine when millions of her people have no medical care. After all, you in the military, are in America's most socialized medical and social-welfare benefit system. Like it or not.
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» RE: Face Just One More Bit of Reality
Posted by: larryfhilton
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Posted by: EJW on Apr 13, 2008 3:49 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is something about 'Amerikans' that make them disliked as a group thoughout the world. It is arrogance (inherited from the British I suppose). Arrogance that any thing, person or idea, not American is inferior. We are enculturated to believe that any thing different is bad or evil.
If we taught our personnel the local language, the local norms, traditions and history, everyone of our people could be ambassadors of good will. Then when they returned home they would have something to share their local communities beyond hate and despair.
I have all the respect in the world for our foreign service people, I was raised in that system. My parents made sure that we didn't become 'Ugly Americans', we learned the language, we met the people, we played with local kids...in short we got a real education that we were able to share at home once my father retired.
Education is about looking in and stepping out, facing the unknown and learning that it is nothing to fear.
Don't take home with you wherever you go (you can't really get rid of it anyway) make your home wherever you are and soon your home will become the whole world.
As John Lennon would say, "Imagine....."
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Posted by: EJW on Apr 13, 2008 4:15 PM
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Posted by: AlexLawyer on Apr 13, 2008 10:26 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: robbie.seal on Apr 14, 2008 5:41 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a service member, I too find the article shallow. Did the author look at all of the places where these golf courses are? What are the green fees off post? I currently live in Augusta. Do you think I can fork out the money charged at the courses which surround the Masters? Here's a kicker... Lower enlisted people get to play too (so much for elitist insular officers). If thier timing is right, they may find themselves at the tee with a general. Lower enlisted don't make much money, so off post fees can be out of their reach. I know. They should be doing soldier stuff like preparing for war...
You give one quick mention that these courses are available to the local public. They are. Anyone that wants to come on post can show their ID, and pay the fees. This is quite popular to the retirees, who don't make a whole heck of allot of money either.
I have visited the "resort" facilities. I am guessing that the author didn't bother to research beyond his Google efforts. Resort? I think not. I've seen allot better in municipal facilities off post. The cappuccino bars? Hey, we like cappucinno too. Psst... don't tell the Marines, they'll call me a sissy...
The author talks about golf carts. I'm sure that most are for use on golf courses. Some are used on FOBs in combat zones to provide transportation for moving equipment when a HMMWV is too big for the job. OH MY... We saved fuel... Don't tell anyone we're trying to save tax dollars... to buy more golf courses.
If the author is upset with military spending, SAY SO. Don't pick at small strings. Military personnel like to do the same things non-military do. Out door activities are encouraged. This is one of those things that is provided to improve the quality of life. Maybe the author thinks we should sit around all day sharpen our K-bars, clean our weapons and think of new ways to kill bad guys. I think the ability to relax and let off some steam is worth a bit of money. Whacking a golfball beats PTSD anyday. Are there excesses? Probably. All organizations have them. If you think we have it too good, or wish to research your topic (something you should have done BEFORE print), you have my open invitation. Sign up, ruck up and visit our "resort" at Mosul.
Your article may just encourage me go get my clubs and visit my local resort today... I think I'll finish sharpening my K-bar early...
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Posted by: debmcd on Apr 14, 2008 2:42 PM
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» Corporate CEO's are Gentlemen???
Posted by: larryfhilton
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Posted by: Al Veerhoff on Apr 14, 2008 7:18 PM
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Posted by: Josephus on Apr 16, 2008 5:07 AM
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But while photographing the golf courses he began to notice, due to the lack of bomb craters, that no golf course had been bombed. After asking his Vietnamese handlers why this was, he was told that during the war, golf courses in both north and south Vietnam had been off limits for bombing runs because they were regularly used by officers from both sides.
After reading this article I have no reason to disbelieve what I was told.
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Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal on Apr 17, 2008 5:08 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But it does bother me to fund fun for an OFFENSIVE military that is the lap dog of our War Criminal in Chief.
I believe it was called the Department of DEFENSE for a reason.
In the end the military is going to get full blame for this fiasco just like they did in Iraq. When will the military leaders learn not to follow like sheep to the slaughter?
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Posted by: coyotemikeus on Apr 17, 2008 9:31 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: EJW on Apr 12, 2008 2:21 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» It's much more than golf courses
Posted by: Lector
» RE: Don't forget [I never will,best years of my life]
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: Suzon on Apr 12, 2008 3:46 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Taxpayers don't really relate that much to the extravagances of the elite self-pampering class, but to your average struggling-not-to-go-under person there is a clear injustice in our our paying not just our "fair share" but his!
Parents and vulnerable people have been sent to prison for not paying this flat tax. (Again, at taxpayers' expense, including foster care for the kids.)
I wonder what authority Blair relied on to evade the tax? Would love to see him in prison for it.
As for the article here, it's basically about monarchical privileges even if the deception and concealment are supposedly an outcome of "democratic" government. Don't kid yourselves. King George and Queen Elizabeth are in fact cousins.
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» RE: excellent research but the petty theft by the elite can be even more galling
Posted by: mainspark
» RE: hi, mainspark, the golf courses are a symptom, not the source of the disease
Posted by: DropTheOBomb
» RE: hi, mainspark, the golf courses are a symptom, not the source of the disease
Posted by: Cybershaman
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Posted by: dancingcloud on Apr 12, 2008 4:49 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» The water table under the Coachella Valley
Posted by: Artkansas
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Posted by: heysailor on Apr 12, 2008 6:34 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have a problem with the current military posture because the uniforms sometimes get lost in a sea of contractors and sandcrabs (civilian employees) that often work at cross-purposes. Originally, the Morale, Welfare, and Recreation (MWR) System was set up for the uniforms. Civilian employees and retirees were granted access afterward.
Civilian employees and the relentless push toward outside contractors have a lot to do with the too-high and bloated military budget. Way too little money actually ends up getting to the troops or protects us. That's a speech for another day. But those civilians and contractors (called "guests" on the course) clog things up for everyone else and in most stateside locations they could golf elsewhere but they also make the courses more cost-efficient by keeping utilization up. A double-edged sword to be sure.
When a Sailor buys a soda at the gedunk (soda bar) that Sailor is contributing to the MWR fund that largely pays for not only golf courses but base libraries and other recreational activities - often with non-traditional hours to meet the needs of military patrons.
Many of these facilities are not duplicated near-by on "the beach" (off-base) and, like MWR golf courses, they don't charge on a sliding scale based on rank and the junior golfer would pay just as much as the more affluent senior golfer. Not all fees for all MWR facilities are ranked based but many are. Sound progressive to you?
Many of these facilities are on bases literally in the middle of nowhere. Like Guantanamo - before it became a prison it was a naval training facility, ideal because of its remoteness. That golf course is far worse than portrayed here. The rough is sword grass many feet high, you never use your own clubs because the fairways are gravel and the only greens are a small patch around each hole - a very small patch. They even give you a BUCKET of balls because you will now doubt go through a dozen or more.
Where I have a problem is with the Taxpayer's Savior - privatization. Selling off these golf courses, or housing or whatever, solves nothing but to make the facility less accountable to its patrons. Market forces are irrelevant.
Where else I have a problem is that in an effort to cut costs, the facilities in the hinterlands will be closed but you will never see a facility in Washington closed. Too many GS and military big shots. And the concentration of high-ranking retirees is a big factor, too. Members in Kwajalein don't have many other options and there aren't many golf courses in Germany.
People in the services themselves largely pay for MWR operating expenses. They are grossly overworked doing the job of protecting us all - regardless of the political merits of anything the current Administration does.
I regret the separation between the military and the civilians we protect. Few of us know anyone in the military, have any respect or regard for what they do, or even care. I do have a solution for breaking down that wall: Bring back the draft. Until everyone, male and female, regardless of economic status, takes their turn protecting the rights that we all enjoy, we will continue to have a less-than-perfect union.
I'm sure there are points I've not addressed and that someone with three hours, a fair amount of (righteous) indignation, and a bone to pick will try to tear this to pieces but, then again, thank a veteran for preserving your freedom of speech. You were born with it and I defended your right to it.
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» RE: Not a Fair Slam
Posted by: thealltheone
» Bravo! A voice of reason
Posted by: jiclemens
» And Bravo to you, too!
Posted by: surferboy2001
» RE: And Bravo to you, too!
Posted by: heysailor
» RE: Bravo! A voice of reason
Posted by: heysailor
» RE: Not a Fair Slam
Posted by: kiel
» RE: Not a Fair Slam
Posted by: heysailor
» RE: Not a Fair Slam
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Not a Fair Slam
Posted by: particle
» RE: Not a Fair Slam
Posted by: heysailor
» RE: Not a Fair Slam
Posted by: particle
» RE: Not a Fair Slam
Posted by: raywigton
» RE: Not a Fair Slam
Posted by: heysailor
» It's A Fair Slam, $41 Billion Just for Uniformed Retirees Last Year
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: It's A Fair Slam, $41 Billion Just for Uniformed Retirees Last Year
Posted by: heysailor
» RE: It's A Fair Slam, $41 Billion Just for Uniformed Retirees Last Year
Posted by: heysailor
» RE: It's A Fair Slam, $41 Billion Just for Uniformed Retirees Last Year
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: It's A Fair Slam, $41 Billion Just for Uniformed Retirees Last Year
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» Free Speech?
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Free Speech?
Posted by: e rice
» RE: Free Speech?
Posted by: heysailor
» are you sure you meant 'dboy'?
Posted by: e rice
» RE: are you sure you meant 'dboy'?
Posted by: heysailor
» Not that unfair but the focus is wrong
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
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Posted by: Moore Hognutz on Apr 12, 2008 8:06 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A few months ago, I poll-watched at a local mayoral election. Another man poll-watched for the other side. The other man described himself as "a conservative" This might be good, thinks me.
"What do you mean by 'conservative'. Fiscal conservative? Social conservative?"
He smiled. Pleasant fellow. "Just conservative," he said.
"Like George Bush?"
"I like George Bush"
"I'm more conservative than George Bush. He's a bomb-dropping radical and he spends your money faster than he can make it, and he's running that printing press 24/7."
But the shrewd fellow would not be badgered into a discussion. "I dunno," he said. "I'm conservative."
Turned out he was in real estate. Land. His career. Buying and selling God's green earth. He was doing well.
Mostly you don't get to be a colonel or general because you're a fine pistol shot or a noted horseback. Or even if you read, think, and breath global strategy. Fine tenor voices don't make much in the plus column, either. But if you play golf well, modestly rolling over God's green earth in an electrical conveyance, you might do well...
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» "Stay close to your desks, and never go to sea"
Posted by: PaulK
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Posted by: HeKnew on Apr 12, 2008 8:52 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Direct Democracy
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Apr 12, 2008 9:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Either the DoD is cheating or the reporter is misinformed.
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» RE: Someone is Lying
Posted by: e rice
» DOD can be sneaky
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Someone is Lying
Posted by: larryfhilton
» RE: Someone is Lying
Posted by: ohb0b
» But --- not the locals.
Posted by: EJW
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Posted by: e rice on Apr 12, 2008 9:53 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
comparatively speaking, these amounts are miniscule. golf courses are unimportant compared to mismanaged research projects, soldiers denied medical care, or the nearly complete lack of competence, honesty and leadership in the upper levels of command.
when enlisted military personnel have their former benefits reinstated (support the troops--pay them a living wage!), when women are safe from their comrades-in-arms' sexual abuse, when the top brass start protecting their own from political idiocy, then i'll try to work up some concern about military golf courses.
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» RE: my problem with this article
Posted by: willymack
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Posted by: sofla100 on Apr 12, 2008 11:08 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» enlisted pay is so wonderful
Posted by: e rice
» double dipping
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: double dipping
Posted by: scoder
» PAY EXAMPLES
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: Milking the System
Posted by: heysailor
» RE: Milking the System
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: Milking the System
Posted by: robbie.seal
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Posted by: drjasonmd on Apr 12, 2008 6:33 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It should also be pointed out that almost all military bases have a bowling alley, a gym, a swimming pool, an auto hobby shop, a library, a movie theater (though they usually only show one show per week as the reels are rotated from base to base), and many offer things such as pottery classes, martial arts classes, etc. In many countries (Japan stands out in my memory), MWR services were the only recreation that we had any chance to afford.
While golf is mostly an elite activity in the civillian world due to its cost, that really doesn't hold true within the military world. Golf was a common family activity for officers and enlisted alike. I agree that the privatization of recreational services on military bases should be examined (most military personnel would probably agree as the services got more expensive with reduced quality in many cases). The fact that such activities are made available to our troops and their families is one of the perks for taking life-threatening jobs far away from home for what is mostly below minimum wage (at least for enlisted personnel on a per hour basis).
As for the number of courses, you can play those numbers how you want. While it is true that some courses have 36 or even 54 holes (which the author feels should be counted as 2 or 3 seperate courses), most were very small par 3 courses with only 9 holes (which by his logic, should only count as 1/4 of a course). If you applied that counting method across the board, I don't think the numbers would change very much.
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Posted by: willymack on Apr 12, 2008 7:28 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Let's talk about golf
Posted by: Lector
» And he's proud of it????????
Posted by: EJW
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Posted by: sofla100 on Apr 12, 2008 7:59 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Base: $1631/month
BAS: $280/month
BAH when stationed on Camp Pendleton: $1409/month
Tax savings: $166/month
AAFES savings: $27/month
Gasoline savings: $11/month
Uniform allowance: $371/year
————————————-
Total Pay: $42,659/year
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» RE: Pay and Benefits
Posted by: e rice
» RE: Pay and Benefits
Posted by: raywigton
» RE: Pay and Benefits
Posted by: e rice
» RE: Pay and Benefits
Posted by: robbie.seal
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Posted by: politicky on Apr 12, 2008 8:38 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
U.S. Military’s War on the Earth
...The world’s largest polluter, the U.S. military, generates 750,000 tons of toxic waste material annually, more than the five largest chemical companies in the U.S. combined...
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» RE: politicky
Posted by: heysailor
» RE: politicky
Posted by: robbie.seal
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Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Apr 12, 2008 9:20 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I say the more generals and and top ranking officers play Golf the less time they have to commit acts of carnage and turn world opinion against us..
Since they won't go after bin-Laden or Zawahiri let them play golf..and make deals and apply for jobs with major contractors for when they get out of the service..that's all they're good for..
An kissing Bush's ass..!
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» RE: "Stay the Course..!"
Posted by: heysailor
» RE: "Stay the Course..!"
Posted by: TJ-stars4peace
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Posted by: larryfhilton on Apr 13, 2008 12:42 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: sofla100 on Apr 13, 2008 1:57 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now, I know several posters have written in order to point out that the hazards of military life should justify the pay/benefits. I would say that could be true and is true for those now in Iraq, but much depends on the service and where stationed. But, the broader question should be why is it in America that kids only seem to have the military as a viable option coming out of high school? Wal-Mart and MD's won't pay them worth crap or give them any real benefits. But, the military will. This is what is really pathetic. As for occupational hazards, you can work some pretty risky jobs in the civilian sector, such as being a security guard in a rough part of town, yet you will be paid next to nothing and have no health insurance.
Bottom line, it's America that is screwed up in her priorities. We have no effective or viable job training programs for kids coming out of high school. Many cannot afford college. We need programs like FDR initiated, public works programs and massive job training programs. We need college education paid for like it is in Europe. The kids shouldn't only see the military as their only option. They shouldn't just have to fight and die in Iraq for nothing and for GW Bush.
Lastly, for those pro-military, don't bellyache too much. Your pay and benefits aren't that bad. Also, don't yelp when poor people get some help or programs from the government. Don't complain America wants socialized medicine when millions of her people have no medical care. After all, you in the military, are in America's most socialized medical and social-welfare benefit system. Like it or not.
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» RE: Face Just One More Bit of Reality
Posted by: larryfhilton
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Posted by: EJW on Apr 13, 2008 3:49 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is something about 'Amerikans' that make them disliked as a group thoughout the world. It is arrogance (inherited from the British I suppose). Arrogance that any thing, person or idea, not American is inferior. We are enculturated to believe that any thing different is bad or evil.
If we taught our personnel the local language, the local norms, traditions and history, everyone of our people could be ambassadors of good will. Then when they returned home they would have something to share their local communities beyond hate and despair.
I have all the respect in the world for our foreign service people, I was raised in that system. My parents made sure that we didn't become 'Ugly Americans', we learned the language, we met the people, we played with local kids...in short we got a real education that we were able to share at home once my father retired.
Education is about looking in and stepping out, facing the unknown and learning that it is nothing to fear.
Don't take home with you wherever you go (you can't really get rid of it anyway) make your home wherever you are and soon your home will become the whole world.
As John Lennon would say, "Imagine....."
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Posted by: EJW on Apr 13, 2008 4:15 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: AlexLawyer on Apr 13, 2008 10:26 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: robbie.seal on Apr 14, 2008 5:41 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a service member, I too find the article shallow. Did the author look at all of the places where these golf courses are? What are the green fees off post? I currently live in Augusta. Do you think I can fork out the money charged at the courses which surround the Masters? Here's a kicker... Lower enlisted people get to play too (so much for elitist insular officers). If thier timing is right, they may find themselves at the tee with a general. Lower enlisted don't make much money, so off post fees can be out of their reach. I know. They should be doing soldier stuff like preparing for war...
You give one quick mention that these courses are available to the local public. They are. Anyone that wants to come on post can show their ID, and pay the fees. This is quite popular to the retirees, who don't make a whole heck of allot of money either.
I have visited the "resort" facilities. I am guessing that the author didn't bother to research beyond his Google efforts. Resort? I think not. I've seen allot better in municipal facilities off post. The cappuccino bars? Hey, we like cappucinno too. Psst... don't tell the Marines, they'll call me a sissy...
The author talks about golf carts. I'm sure that most are for use on golf courses. Some are used on FOBs in combat zones to provide transportation for moving equipment when a HMMWV is too big for the job. OH MY... We saved fuel... Don't tell anyone we're trying to save tax dollars... to buy more golf courses.
If the author is upset with military spending, SAY SO. Don't pick at small strings. Military personnel like to do the same things non-military do. Out door activities are encouraged. This is one of those things that is provided to improve the quality of life. Maybe the author thinks we should sit around all day sharpen our K-bars, clean our weapons and think of new ways to kill bad guys. I think the ability to relax and let off some steam is worth a bit of money. Whacking a golfball beats PTSD anyday. Are there excesses? Probably. All organizations have them. If you think we have it too good, or wish to research your topic (something you should have done BEFORE print), you have my open invitation. Sign up, ruck up and visit our "resort" at Mosul.
Your article may just encourage me go get my clubs and visit my local resort today... I think I'll finish sharpening my K-bar early...
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Posted by: debmcd on Apr 14, 2008 2:42 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Corporate CEO's are Gentlemen???
Posted by: larryfhilton
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Posted by: Al Veerhoff on Apr 14, 2008 7:18 PM
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Posted by: Josephus on Apr 16, 2008 5:07 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But while photographing the golf courses he began to notice, due to the lack of bomb craters, that no golf course had been bombed. After asking his Vietnamese handlers why this was, he was told that during the war, golf courses in both north and south Vietnam had been off limits for bombing runs because they were regularly used by officers from both sides.
After reading this article I have no reason to disbelieve what I was told.
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Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal on Apr 17, 2008 5:08 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But it does bother me to fund fun for an OFFENSIVE military that is the lap dog of our War Criminal in Chief.
I believe it was called the Department of DEFENSE for a reason.
In the end the military is going to get full blame for this fiasco just like they did in Iraq. When will the military leaders learn not to follow like sheep to the slaughter?
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Posted by: coyotemikeus on Apr 17, 2008 9:31 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Tax the Corporations and the Rich or Take Draconian Cuts -- the Decision Is Ours
Fury at Wall St. Banks Fuels Public Action for Move Your Money Campaign
Why Congress Wants You to Shun Your Local Bookstore and Shop at Amazon Instead




