COMMENTS: 268
Can't Pay Your Mortgage? Trash Your House and Leave
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"We just estimated a trashout yesterday where we're going to have to drain the pool," one Fontana, Calif., resident posted on AgentsOnline.Net, a resource and idea site for realtors, "and the stench from it when you enter the backyard is overwhelming. Then, of course, there are mosquitoes all over the top, and it's been sitting so long without chemicals that it's green on top and murky black on the bottom. We've already had to refuse one pool because of its really creepy condition and I'm not so sure about this one either. [I] just hope we don't find the previous homeowner at the bottom when we drain it."
"Vacant homes attract vandals and depress property values," explained Douglas Robinson, spokesman for NeighborWorks America, a nonprofit created by Congress to offer financial and technical support and training for community-based revitalization. "This negatively affects existing owners and reduces local property tax revenues. But very few homeowners walk away, although those who do believe that is their best option. Of course, trying to get a loan modification so that the payments are affordable is their best option."
As if it were that easy. Especially for those homeowners, including those with good and bad credit, who have seen the light at the end of our current economic crisis only to decide there isn't a house in it. In fact, one could almost see the Wall Street Journal frown with disapproval upon reading the title of their December 2007 piece, "Now Even Borrowers With Good Credit Pose Risks." But the title no doubt was influenced by the comments of Bank of America CEO Kenneth Lewis in the piece itself. It seems that Lewis, whose company recently bought the housing meltdown's poster boy for bad lending, Countrywide, for $4 billion in stock, nevertheless feels confounded that customers of questionable loans would simply choose to abandon ship, er, house. "There's been a change in social attitudes toward default," Mr. Lewis told the Journal. "We're seeing people who are current on their credit cards but are defaulting on their mortgages. I'm astonished that people would walk away from their homes." While Lewis may scratch his head in disbelief, employees of the bank Wachovia have an explanation that might work for him: Homeowners have crunched the numbers and decided their houses are worth less than their mortgages. According to a recent conference call, many of Wachovia's current losses in California are originating not from subprime buyers fallen on financial hardship, but from homeowners who can pay their cleverly structured loans but are just choosing a different fate. "They've been from people that have otherwise had the capacity to pay," a Wachovia spokesperson said on the call, "but have basically just decided not to, because they feel like they've lost equity, value in their properties. It's hard to know right now, but we may have seen somewhat of an acceleration problem … as people have reached that conclusion."
But that is what things usually do when you drive them off a cliff: Accelerate, ever faster. The open secret about the current housing crisis is that it is almost wholly built upon debt, which is to say the opposite of money. Everyone owes everyone: American banks borrow money from overseas, structure bizarre loans at home for Americans, which are then sliced and diced into securities and sold back to the international debt markets. The whole thing is a feedback loop made of bills needing to be paid. The best-kept secret of the crisis, however, is that homeowners at the mercy of those greedy banks and lenders -- including Countrywide CEO Angelo Mozilo, who sold off his stock before the crisis to net a cool $290 million while the company's value shrank to practically nothing -- are bailing out and leaving the banks and lenders to sort out the mess of past-due notices themselves.
And that's a problem the banks or lenders can't handle, according to Tricia Canites, managing attorney for Human Rights/Fair Housing Commission in Sacramento, one of the housing meltdown's most impacted cities. "The banks are not in the business of renting or selling properties," she explained by phone. "If the homeowners are willing to work with them, banks will work to get something rather than nothing. But it's a lose-lose situation, because you have homeowners who are willing to leave."
Not that they should, if you ask the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development. Many of those fed-up homeowners, according to HUD, might not understand the intricacies of their financial agreements and relationships with their lenders, and may miss an opportunity for renegotiation if they decide to simply mail in their keys and never look back.
"We strongly encourage homeowners facing a financial crisis to stay in close touch with the lender holding the mortgage on their home," advised Larry Bush, public affairs officer for HUD's California network. "Because of the number of foreclosures, many lenders would prefer not to add to the inventory of foreclosed homes but instead work out an agreement with the homeowner. Lenders likely have higher costs for a vacant home than a homeowner has for living in the home. They have to make certain the property is kept in good condition; in most jurisdictions this means keeping the electricity and water hookups active, security monitoring to ensure there are no squatters or break-ins, and new appraisal and inspection. Homeowners absorb many of those costs."
Of course it's expensive, one might say, but it's arguably more expensive for a homeowner to hang onto a money pit. Billions of equity lost, companies teetering on the brink of bankruptcy, the dollar sinking like a stone, the recession at the door: Some homeowners read those tea leaves and decide to leave well enough alone.
While that kind of payback might not sit well with banks and lenders who kick-started the so-called subprime crisis by taking advantage of ridiculously low lending rates, courtesy of free-marketeer and now-disgraced Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan, they cannot argue with its purely financial logic. These are people who refer to the market as a living thing and place their bets across its expansive craps table in hopes of hitting the mad jackpot. And for the years following Greenspan's loony monetary policy, that jackpot was in housing.
"Most of the homeowners now facing problems bought their homes when the market was at its recent height in 2005-2006, and paid prices that have not held up in the current market," added Bush. "That leaves the homeowner owing more than the current value of the home."
That, at least for conventional gamblers, is usually a sign to walk away from the table, which is what compromised homeowners are doing in greater numbers than before. But it has yet to reach the stage where it is has become an epidemic concern, according to Bush.
"There isn't a one-size rule for all communities," he explained. "We see some homeowners losing their homes, but HUD certainly does not see an exodus under way. In many cases, the trend is now toward resolving the financial challenges."
Perhaps for now, in an economic crisis that looks like it might have a bottom, or could be solved by the recent bipartisan band-aid designed to give taxpayers rebate checks ranging from $600 to $1,200. But that's not the kind of money that is going to save a homeowner from default or bankruptcy; it's merely spending money the government hopes will be liquidated at the mall, so that its resultant consumption can jump-start our debt-based economy back to life again. And, for many homeowners, even ones with good credit, loan modifications are just different arrangements of the same basic pain, one with root in the American Dream of housing for sure, but also one with root in dense financial contracts no one has time to read because they're too busy working to pay them off. As an alternative, rentals offer less migraines and less responsibility, because responsibility at the bottom and accountability at the top are rare things these days.
Too bad one is frowned upon by the powers that be, while the other is ignored outright.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Feb 1, 2008 1:04 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wanton destruction is wanton destruction. No matter how you slice it. Destruction born of greed is still greedy destruction.
Actions have consequences. Earth to whomsoever....
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» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: mejsmith
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: maxpayne
» This is a class issue...
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: mejsmith
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: mejsmith
» No, of course not!
Posted by: J_Mo
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: Duh.
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: Duh.
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Duh.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Duh.
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Duh.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Duh.
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Duh.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Duh.
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: Duh. The person most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: "normal rules of society"
Posted by: pangolin
» RE: Duh. Oh, IT will be Such a Problem that the TAXPAYERS.
Posted by: peridot
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: J_Mo
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: maxpayne
» Fraud is also just plain fraud.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Fraud is also just plain fraud.
Posted by: Itsthewater
» Meh. I favor education over ignorance and greed, especially when it leads to destruction.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Duh. The person most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: J_Mo
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rjs on Feb 1, 2008 1:57 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Both learn the hard way.
--rjs
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» RE: But they trashed my life?
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: But they trashed my life?
Posted by: peacefullaim
» Weapons of the weak
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» Scapegoat Up not down. Bush borrows trillions for banker's, suppliers' war profits. Money Masters
Posted by: JoAnne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: elt on Feb 1, 2008 2:13 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Just Desserts
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» Poor families long struggle to build equity in a house and default on the ARM so the bank takes all
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Just Desserts
Posted by: mejsmith
» RE: Just Desserts
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Just Desserts
Posted by: Astroboy
» RE: Just Desserts
Posted by: Trazom
» Who's Ox is Gored?
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» Banks don't want foreclosure
Posted by: BCcovers
» RE: Banks don't want foreclosure
Posted by: yellow
» Banks are out of the picture
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» RE: Banks are out of the picture
Posted by: Astroboy
» RE: Banks don't want foreclosure
Posted by: nherkowitz
» RE: Banks don't want foreclosure
Posted by: J_Mo
» RE: And the long term impact on the community
Posted by: chaoslegs
» RE: And the long term impact on the community
Posted by: buzzsaw
» Same here.
Posted by: J_Mo
» So you like wasting labor and natural resources?
Posted by: Riverman
» If the global human population is in a bubble that must inevitably pop,
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
Comments are closed-
Posted by: NoPCZone on Feb 1, 2008 2:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The business people are always running their mouths about how perfect the market is until they get in trouble. I, for one, hope they take a massive sucker punch that deflates the hugely overpriced stock on the market. Then I, with my undamaged credit, will buy on the cheap. I don't want to see anybody bailed out because they were all greedy- from the buyers through the sellers to the realtors and the loan originators.
It's time for the social climbing crowd to begin to live within their means and maybe that will clear their head the next time they decide to support politicians and policies that are against consumers and ordinary people. Pull your kid out of private school, terminate the lease on your gas-hog Suburban, rent a small house or apartment and start to live within your means.
Maybe the next time a union organizer approaches you might actually listen for a change, grow a backbone and do some good for yourself and your community. The next time you vote, maybe you will support candidates concerned with the real issues of working people instead of Neo-Con hot button BS. The next time you buy a house, maybe you will buy something more reasonable.
Meanwhile, this progressive that has been living within his means will watch the real estate market continue to deflate and buy some nice property on the cheap after the dust has settled. Maybe I'll be your landlord.
How do you like your NeoCon economics now?
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» RE: Buying Opportunity
Posted by: bitsfick
» RE: Excellent "Analysis"
Posted by: Sissy
» It may be less of a buying opportunity than you think...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: It may be less of a buying opportunity than you think...
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: It may be less of a buying opportunity than you think...
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Buying Opportunity
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: Buying Opportunity
Posted by: BCcovers
» RE: Buying Opportunity
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Buying Opportunity
Posted by: BCcovers
» RE: Buying Opportunity
Posted by: NoPCZone
» Living beyond the means
Posted by: naturalbornsolutions
» RE: Buying Opportunity
Posted by: Sushi
» Problem with those types,
Posted by: J_Mo
Comments are closed-
Posted by: bluepilgrim on Feb 1, 2008 3:55 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Corporations will let people die because it's cheaper to pay the penalties than make the workplace safe.
One might say these people are just taking the capitalist/corporate view.
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Posted by: maxpayne on Feb 1, 2008 4:13 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» That's right Max, Blame the poor. After all they actually run society and control all its resources.
Posted by: yellow
» Did you ever read the book "What's the Matter With Kansas?" by Thomas Frank?
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Did you ever read the book "What's the Matter With Kansas?" by Thomas Frank?
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Did you ever read the book "What's the Matter With Kansas?" by Thomas Frank?
Posted by: buzzsaw
» RE: Did you ever read the book "What's the Matter With Kansas?" by Thomas Frank?
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» RE: Too bad this country is filled with dysfunctional sick puppies
Posted by: ankhet
Comments are closed-
Posted by: HeKnew on Feb 1, 2008 4:13 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Government of the people, by the people and for the people.
Direct Democracy
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» RE: Terrorist: HeKnew
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Terrorist. You said it!
Posted by: Cathyc
» "The Money Masters" Link
Posted by: JoAnne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Suzon on Feb 1, 2008 4:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[Correction: The government did nothing to help them keep the homes they had been encouraged to buy (often their previously secure council flat), but they did put families into wretched B&B accommodation.]
During the same period the 157,000 wealthiest families in the UK received up to £21 billion in subsidies.
Source: Kevin Cahill's Who Owns Britain (2001).
I never read about anyone in the UK trashing their home before it was repossessed. It seems to me that trashing a home would be, in many cases, an indication of mental health. Most people tend to blame themselves or turn to drugs and alcohol.
Maybe the American monarchistic "haves and have-mores" will pause for a moment to wonder what other kind of "acting out" they might be in for.
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» RE: P.S. I'd bet that the sub-prime mortgages were based upon UK self-assessed
Posted by: makeadifference
Comments are closed-
Posted by: leland61 on Feb 1, 2008 5:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was born and raised in Michigan, the rust belt, where abandoned factories litter the landscape along with their polluted deposits left for someone else to clean up.
Hello!!! This practice has been going on by the monied elite as long as anyone can possibly remember. Now the working classes are gettng the idea. Follow the behavior of the rich and psychotic. Just dump your shit and let someone else worry about it.
There should be jail sentences in the future for a lot of these rich criminals. It won't happen because this country is run for them and by them. The last 8 years could not possibly make that any clearer for those not willfully blind.
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» "The Money Masters" link
Posted by: JoAnne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: opmoc on Feb 1, 2008 5:37 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However the timing is critical - get it wrong by just a few years and you may well be financially wasted.
The reason is that there is a correlation between average house prices and average wages which varies tremendously over time. The trend is only your friend in the short term.
The last big house price crash in the UK occurred around 1989 and it took 4 years for prices to bottom out. Taking into account the high inflation at the time, prices fell in real terms by more than one half. The fall now could be even greater, and take longer to recover as house prices are now over 6 times average wages. Expect them to fall to around 3 times average wages.
However, history doesn't always repeat itself, and selling your house now may not be a good idea, despite the prospect that it will likely continue to fall in value for the next few years.
The reason is, that it is entirely possible that the financial system as a whole could totally crash - with banks going bust. If you sell your house and rent - how can you be sure that the bank where you put any capital will not go bust and take all your money with it?
At the end of the day houses aren't investments but homes to live in and when things get tough you are usually better off, battenning down the hatches and weathering the storm.
Things will eventually get better.
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» RE: Debt is Not The Problem - It's The Timing
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: Debt is Not The Problem - It's The Timing
Posted by: buzzsaw
» Things will eventually get better
Posted by: Scott
» RE: Things will eventually get better
Posted by: opmoc
» You don't have to do what you're told. True, but...
Posted by: Cathyc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Adi on Feb 1, 2008 6:32 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» the federal reserve bank: no reserves, not federal, not public: The Money Masters (link)
Posted by: JoAnne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Cybershaman on Feb 1, 2008 7:05 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» war and depression and the fed: The Money Masters:
Posted by: JoAnne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ot on Feb 1, 2008 7:08 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...that mean-spirited, self-hating liberals would crawl out of the wood work to rationalize this type of criminal behavior on behalf of these botton-feeders in the name of corporate "greed"?
No wonder at all.
That is why these people are at the bottom and will stay that way, mere fodder for the rest of us to profit from.
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» RE: Is it any wonder...
Posted by: opmoc
» RE: Is it any wonder...
Posted by: grn1
» RE: Is it any wonder...
Posted by: billwald
» RE: Is it any wonder... only to you
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Is it any wonder... only to you
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: Is it any wonder...
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: The real stupid people...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: olympia43 on Feb 1, 2008 7:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» You're kidding right?
Posted by: BCcovers
» RE: You're kidding right?
Posted by: cmaciain
» No, s/he is not kidding, and also 100% correct.
Posted by: Scientz
» here we go again: the either/or fallacy! we don't have to chose between humans and animals
Posted by: Suzon
» RE: here we go again: the either/or fallacy! we don't have to chose between humans and animals
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: No, s/he is not kidding, and also 100% correct.
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» RE: No, s/he is not kidding, and also 100% correct.
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: No, s/he is not kidding, and also 100% correct.
Posted by: srimbael
» RE: No, s/he is not kidding, and also 100% correct.
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: more real estate dirt
Posted by: data23
» RE: more real estate dirt
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: more real estate dirt
Posted by: Libsrule
» RE: more real estate dirt
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: more real estate dirt
Posted by: Chromedome2000
» RE: more real estate dirt
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: more real estate dirt
Posted by: SaraCole
» RE: more real estate dirt
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: more real estate dirt
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: more real estate dirt
Posted by: SaraCole
» RE: more real estate dirt
Posted by: data23
» HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Posted by: Moira61
» RE: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Posted by: Moira61
» RE: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Posted by: Scientz
» Hey Scientz
Posted by: Rapunzel
» RE: Hey Scientz
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: more real estate dirt
Posted by: srimbael
Comments are closed-
Posted by: stina723 on Feb 1, 2008 7:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hey big banks and shady mortgage lending companies - what goes around comes around.
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» Klein is full of it
Posted by: Ambrose Pare
» RE: Klein is full of it...STFU
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Klein is full of it
Posted by: Morphizm
» Klein cannot be a traitor to "this" country. She has no obligation to be loyal to a foreign land.
Posted by: SayBlade
» RE: Klein is full of it - to Ambrose Pare
Posted by: stina723
» wealth and poverty, and fractional reserve banking: money masters:
Posted by: JoAnne
» The traitors occupy the White House & Congress, Ambrose!
Posted by: fsuthai
» The Shock Doctrine: destablize and conquer: The Money Masters
Posted by: JoAnne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: SteveO on Feb 1, 2008 7:44 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We didn't learn a thing from the pain we had then.
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» RE: Not the first time we've been through this
Posted by: willymack
» "same thing": air-money, prvtly prnted Lnt to u.s.,repd wth intrst (txs...our txs ): Mny Mstrs
Posted by: JoAnne
» RE: "same thing": air-money, prvtly prnted Lnt to u.s.,repd wth intrst (txs...our txs ): Mny Mstrs
Posted by: Spot
» "done this to ourselves"
Posted by: kww355
Comments are closed-
Posted by: scryberwitch on Feb 1, 2008 7:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Simply put, it's revenge....tally ho
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Simply put, it's revenge....tally ho
Posted by: srimbael
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kungfoofighterx on Feb 1, 2008 7:51 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mortgages are some creepy old world thing to me. What are the prospects of having a job or three jobs with decent pay for as long as a mortgage? What is the average amount of time people should expect to be unemployed during their mortgage? Let’s say I have a home and we paid it off after 40 years, but we have little in the way anything else because we had to sink it into our home to keep it from falling apart and paying all of the taxes on it and cover family medical bills when we didn’t have insurance during unfortunate double job change overs while my spouse was going back to school to get that third degree because the job sectors in our city changes so rapidly a degree is only good for at best 10 years and it takes 6 to pay it off not to mention the times I had to go back to school to get a new degree. Most jobs don’t seem to last more than 4 years. We did have some 401K money, but we had to cash it in to go back to school to keep our earning levels high enough so our kids could have a decent start. So now I reverse mortgage it to pay for my retirement and medical costs. My kids get nothing and the cycle of wealth is broken. Modern feudalism. I feel safer investing in things that aren’t taxed like Roth IRAs.
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» RE: A totally different world
Posted by: opmoc
» Are you related to James Joyce?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: A totally different world
Posted by: peacefullaim
Comments are closed-
Posted by: JSquercia on Feb 1, 2008 7:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Insider Trading Anyone... absolutely
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Insider Trading Anyone... absolutely...dammit
Posted by: DaBear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: PaulK on Feb 1, 2008 8:26 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First, we are infested with crooks who will rip us off bigtime. That's always true.
Second, we are infested with a government that doesn't care if the country crashes and burns. That can possibly be partially fixed with honest elections such as with the choice method of proportional representation, which inherently fights campaign bribery.
Third, we are a nation of stooges waiting to be fleeced. We buy high in the stock market and sell at the bottoms of panics. Then we pay outrageous prices for houses, mortgaging half our lives away for the houses, and abandon the houses when the market tanks. Whole cities such as Lost Wages have been built on this madness. I'm sure we could invest in tulip bulbs with the same passion.
I wish that our schools educated all of our kids to be good citizens by running speculations: stock market speculations (based on real live data), housing bubbles (same) and government spending sprees (real live data from Argentina, from Brazil, from our own country).
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» Schools 'school' children -- Parents 'educate' them
Posted by: Cathyc
» And what, exactly, is the problem with our schools?
Posted by: abbadon2007
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Posted by: blue3zero on Feb 1, 2008 8:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: It's only a matter of time
Posted by: willymack
» RE: It's only a matter of time
Posted by: SalB
Comments are closed-
Posted by: redfrog on Feb 1, 2008 9:16 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These are frightening times and I don't like being afraid or having to face some of the attitudes or behaviors of others who are afraid but none of this touches who any of us are at core. Some of us are not good people, but most of us are.
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» RE: The crooks will be always with us
Posted by: DaBear
» DaBear, are you some sort of masochist?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: DaBear, are you some sort of masochist?
Posted by: fsuthai
» Honor is meaningless when it's used against us.
Posted by: heid
Comments are closed-
Posted by: DaBear on Feb 1, 2008 9:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The assumption that there are solutions is BULLSHIT. It is a LIE. The only solutions, like those offered by Barbara Boxer and Operation Hope, are not being considered let alone entering the thoughts of the money addled ruling class asshats that created, caused and are getting away scott-free with the problem and chaos THEY perpetrated.
Neither B of A nor Countrywide were reasonable with my family. We live in a campground (every 14 days we move to the next one) with a $70K annual income. Why? Because their "workouts" were only $250 less a month than the overpriced loans were originally. Because some rich prick mortgage broker told us (he LIED) the subprime was all we "qualified" for (another LIE). We found out too late. The WGA strike hit and BOOM. God bless 'Merkuh.
Anytime a rich guy makes an excuse, you can count on it being some shade of a LIE. That's who they are... just like their hero, the Chimp-Emperor.
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» RE: Those poor confused rich white males
Posted by: billwald
» Interesting...
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: Interesting...
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Interesting...
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Interesting...
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Interesting...
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Interesting...
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Interesting...
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Interesting...
Posted by: waxman
» RE: Interesting...
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Interesting...
Posted by: mejsmith
» Give it up, EncinoM...
Posted by: fsuthai
» RE: Interesting...
Posted by: mejsmith
» "We live in a campground with a $70K annual income"
Posted by: opmoc
» Do NOT insult CHIMPS!
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
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Posted by: Landbaron on Feb 1, 2008 9:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Gravitas on Feb 1, 2008 10:05 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sac is one of the hardest hit cities! Well, from what I saw of the nasty, evils that when on in Sac when I lived there, all I can ask is karma Sac............
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» RE: Karma Sacramento?
Posted by: heid
» They built on a floodplain the idiots.
Posted by: pangolin
Comments are closed-
Posted by: HistArch on Feb 1, 2008 10:22 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"We strongly encourage homeowners facing a financial crisis to stay in close touch with the lender holding the mortgage on their home"- screw that!!! If you have been brainwashed into thinking that a house is an investment rather than a home, you should pull out as soon as you see your investment going down. Buy low and sell dear- when you see your bankroll going down, pull out.
This is what happens when bankers, politicians, and fellow Americans consider a house a commodity. The place where you live is your home, not an asset, a money-making venture, or a savings account. Forget what the Wall Street Nostradamus' tell you- your home is where your heart is. Would you sell your heart, your family, your community? If so, you deserve exactly what you get; a lifetime of commodified reality that doesn't jibe with the touchy-feelie world we actually live in. The government or banks or other financial institutions shouldn't lift a finger to help serial homeowners out and we shouldn't lift a finger to help any of those companies who risked it on sketchy repackaged loans. If they were smart they would have enough investments to stay afloat for the long haul.
For all of you who are made a poor decision and live in an overpriced crackerbox, enjoy the fall. Remember, that over time your investments should go up and if you stick with it long enough you should be fine. Next time use your heart as well as your head.
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» Good point. Thank you.
Posted by: maxpayne
» P.S.: I wouldn't forgive Big Banks and lenders for exploiting this too far.
Posted by: maxpayne
» Victims of deceipt by the lenders...
Posted by: buffeliscious
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Posted by: maxpayne on Feb 1, 2008 10:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» starts with the fed. why?: The Money Masters.
Posted by: JoAnne
» RE: starts with the fed. why?: The Money Masters.
Posted by: maxpayne
» Thanks for your support. Readers, please see "The Money Masters"
Posted by: JoAnne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Merum on Feb 1, 2008 10:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, to a certain extent, consumers did contribute to their own ruin. However, the system was supposed to work in such a way to protect people from making purchases they can't afford in the first place. And when you say you'll come in and buy on the cheap afterwards, well, you're no better than the Neocons that made this mess, profiting from the misfortune of others. That's very American of you.
It's easy to sit and smugly crow about "personal responsibility", but it misses the larger point. Corporate interests and the political shitbags that serve them have for years worked to take away the ability of the average consumer to make the very decisions that would keep them out of debt hell, because that very debt is another tool of the slavers to keep you in line.
At the same time, through their work on capitol hill, they have taken away all the safety nets that would allow people who got ensnared in the system to pull themselves up and dust themselves off. Bankruptcy laws have been gutted and modified to the extent that the tool is now basically useless, unless of course you happen to be a corporation, in which case you can still parachute out when your schemes backfire. Lenders have been deregulated to remove the checks and balances that were supposed to protect people from being taken advantage of. Usury laws have been changed to allow lenders to charge outrageous interest rates to desperate people who shouldn't be able to borrow more money, because it will just put them in deeper. Why? So that the monied few can make more and more.
It's no accident that personal finance is not taught in our public schools as part of core curriculum. It's no accident that people are constantly fed the notion that consumption and greed are good things, that their friends will think less of them if they don't have the right house, the right car, the latest iPod and the latest fashion.
It's no accident that the only candidates you get to hear about are the ones who will continue to support the rape and pillage of the American public. To educate people is counter to their own interest, which is to make as much money and accumulate as much power as possible.
People who say it's amoral for these people to fight back with what seems to be the only weapon available to them, have been fooled. "Social norms" are just more bullshit you've been fed to make you behave in the way that benefits the profit-mongers the most. Quietly turning over your possessions because you've been duped into financial ruin is stupid.
Time for a role reversal. Get what you can out of what you've got, and leave scorched earth behind. Make sure the corps get shafted on your way out. Leave them nothing, because they'll do the same to you.
Remember, when you ain't got nothin, you got nothin to lose.
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» RE: Because there is no valid contract.
Posted by: pangolin
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Crazy H on Feb 1, 2008 11:15 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Never the fault of those in power, never the fault of the rich who take advantage of the poor ("mere fodder for the rest of us to profit from"), never their own greed, never their fervent belief that deregulation is a good thing.
And most especially, never their own damn fault when the house of cards they built comes crashing down around them.
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» RE: "personal responsibility"
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: "personal responsibility"
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: "personal responsibility"
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: "personal responsibility"
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: "personal responsibility"
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: "personal responsibility"
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: "personal responsibility"
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: "personal responsibility"
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: "personal responsibility"
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: "personal responsibility"
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: "personal responsibility"
Posted by: mejsmith
» RE: "personal responsibility"
Posted by: Crazy H
» Oh, stop it !!!
Posted by: kww355
» RE: "personal responsibility"
Posted by: SaraCole
» RE: Personal Responsibility Goes Both Ways
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
Comments are closed-
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Feb 1, 2008 12:14 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: IS ANYONE REALLY SURPRISED ?
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: IS ANYONE REALLY SURPRISED ? Crazy H
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» Yes Anna. no one is suprised. Honesty? It's gone before the ink dries: see "Money Masters"
Posted by: JoAnne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: harpy on Feb 1, 2008 2:32 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: It is just mortgages, it's credit cards also
Posted by: Crazy H
» When lenders compete, you win? mny mstrs:
Posted by: JoAnne
» war debt, mtg debt, credit debt, intrst cloc's a runnin'; it's SHOCK DOCTRINE: see money masters:
Posted by: JoAnne
» RE: Organize a mass default.
Posted by: pangolin
» RE: Organize a mass default.
Posted by: Trazom
Comments are closed-
Posted by: lenox on Feb 1, 2008 3:33 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» REVOLUTION. Revolt, people, revolt!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: VOLUTION. Revolt, people, revolt!
Posted by: using
» RE: VOLUTION. Revolt, people, revolt!
Posted by: using
Comments are closed-
Posted by: fsuthai on Feb 1, 2008 5:37 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The current media controlled Presidential election process is a charade to distract, divide, and continue the conquest of America! It is time for the 2nd American Revolution and I hope that it can be accomplished without violence. Our two party, corporate funded 'purchase' of the White House and Congress must be changed. I wanted Kucinich but he was forced out early, as were a few other honest candidates. The only one remaining that has a chance in hell to make some meaningful change is Dr. Ron Paul.
Anyone who votes for the MSM candidates, ANY of the media endorsed candidates, is a 'status quo' slave undeserving of the freedoms you were born with but are rapidly losing!
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» why can no prez, no party can help where it hurts? why are we in war, in debt, in trouble? the fed:
Posted by: JoAnne
» Gawd, JoAnne, give it up! nm
Posted by: kww355
» RE: why can no prez, no party can help where it hurts? why are we in war, in debt, in trouble? the f
Posted by: melloe
» RE: why can no prez, no party can help where it hurts? why are we in war, in debt, in trouble? the f
Posted by: rollo
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Posted by: sofla100 on Feb 1, 2008 6:59 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: No Excuse: Sez you.
Posted by: pangolin
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pangolin on Feb 1, 2008 10:01 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The usurious banks have no problem driving you personally into homelessness if that's what it takes to get their cash. As we all know there is no such thing as a corporate CEO who accepts personally the responsibility for the failure of his corporation or the loss of thousands of jobs. They all walk away with millions in their pockets when they trash a company for their own personal gain.
People facing ruin and homelessness feel they have no moral responsibility to protect the financial interests of the wealthy. When I was working property management evicted renters would do things like hit every panel of drywall with a hammer, cut electrical wires inside the walls, pour liquids like milk and beer into carpets, pour dry rice into the drains, break the windows and doors and move out. Of course some people would get really mean about it but that's another story.
The problem with having no social contract is that people on the way down have the energy to take others with them. This is the situation that is causing problems in Kenya right now. With nothing left to lose the poor have no investment in a stable future.
A society is as good as it treats the least of it's members. By that standard the US is a sewer.
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» RE: If it's good for the goose.....
Posted by: freetoast
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Posted by: stinkpiggy on Feb 2, 2008 12:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
She got her green card in January, 2004 and left me in July with debts from a failed attempt at business-around forty grand-and a small, but barely payable mortgage. Try paying bills with no job. By the time I got one, in March of 2005, I was behind enough on EVERYTHING to be unable to maintain payments to two cards that were charged off and to be struggling to get on top of the mortgage and remaining bills till today. She returned to Massachusetts, where I'd found her, hired an attorney and filed for divorce after getting her financial affairs straightened out(since she was unburdened-as in "why should I pay my share? I don't live there anymore!"- by her fiduciary obligation as co-signer on the mortgage, she could earn and save as I couldn't). The attorney threatened to grind me into chutney through attrition in court. The forty thou was a loan from my sister to set the woman up in the food business, so the judge decreed that she should get the acreage we owned(paid for, natch)and I would have the house with its imaginary value above what was owed the bank as recompense for what she technically owed my sister. The catch was that I was to have her name removed from the mortgage in short order and all would go their merry ways. My mangled credit score made that downright impossible. Even though I had paid the mortgage solo for the past two years, I get no break on that score.
Last November, the judge gave me til May of this year to get her name off, after which I will be ordered to sell the house. Imagine that! In THIS market. Now I'm faced with having to sell the thing for less than what I owe. I imagine I could, if I wished, try for sale by owner for the amount that would resolve all the problems and simply report back to the judge occasionally that no solid prospects have yet appeared. If I am ordered to sell at a loss, I won't hesitate to walk away from it, after stripping it of anything worth selling, letting them rip her credit score to shreds as well. I forgot to mention that, since her name is still on the mortgage, whenever I've come up short on money to pay bills, the mortgage is last to get paid, assuring her score takes the hit, too.
In other words, I can sympathize with many who are going through this problem in its manifest forms. Some may have brought it upon themselves, but this economic system is basically castigatingly parasitic, by which I mean that when you are down, everyone lines up to kick you and keep you down. The feeding frenzy that prevails in the market for foreclosures and selling charged off accounts encourages a whole culture of vultures to feed on the weak and principled, leaving the victims with few alternatives, if any, to save a modicum of net worth allowing anything remotely resembling a normal life.
I have thus become very hardened. I probably will, if the worst comes to pass, never own another piece of property. I'm way to old to dig my way out of this, so I will just do what I can to survive and thrive as best I can. If I must commit crimes to survive, I won't hesitate. I have no expectation at all of surcease from this criminal economic system I have now learned has been and probably always will be the norm. That a significant proportion of the population seeking redress of everyday problems through criminal means is in overwhelming superiority to those law-abiding citizens is now no surprise at all to me. I join their ranks in protest, but with full knowledge that, even in this supposedly law-driven society, it is cost-effective for law enforcement entities to ignore many crimes, thus allowing me and others to live, vultures in our own rights.
How else do you think suicide by cop came about? Is the situation really that different?
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» totally unfair. this woman should be deported.
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: True story
Posted by: Morphizm
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rwday@cox.net on Feb 2, 2008 2:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'll condemn these desperate people's choices when I see some movement on the part of our government (Congressional Democrats, that's you) to hold the feet of these executives and pols to the fire.
Accountability - it's not just for the 'little people' anymore...
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Posted by: xvictor on Feb 2, 2008 7:08 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Greenspan has a history of creating bubbles that catastrophically burst after a few short years. He created the tech bubble and and now the mortgage crisis. He single-handedly transformed 'irrational exuberance' into a sexy animal that everyone must have. Now that animal is painfully biting back. It's so funny watching the financial types hang on to every word that used Greenspan used to say.
He worshipped gold as an object of stability back in the 60s. Then he dissed gold when he became chairman. Now he praises gold after he retired. A guy who can't make up his mind.
Also, a big part of the blame also goes to Wall Street believing that debt creation is a big money maker. So much for Bush and his "ownership society".
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Posted by: dkm on Feb 2, 2008 10:26 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: macdon1 on Feb 2, 2008 1:30 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Callibrarian on Feb 2, 2008 6:20 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And who says these home owners can afford to pay? No where in the link did it say why the banks assumed these people could pay. Did they do a study or just assume folks were rolling in it and didn't want to give it up? Things around here are not exactly cheap, and homes mean other spending like on HOA fees and furniture. Plenty of people are still technically employed, but how many of those work on commission or as needed? The construction workers and real estate agents I know are still working; they simply have little to no money to show for it.
As for trash outs, I think they are a sign of hitting bottom. Some see it as complete disrespect. I wonder if they did it out of frustration or if it was really because they could not afford to either store their furniture or take it with them.
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» RE: Why would they pay to stay in crappy situations?
Posted by: macdon1
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Posted by: LLITTL on Feb 2, 2008 8:51 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I called the FmHA office and said I would pay double mortgage payments for 4 months, which would bring us back into current status. What I heard stunned me. "You have 30 days". Now, I had been behind 4 months for several months and had no communication from them. They expected me to pay them $2760 when my income for that month was nowhere near that amount! I hung up the phone and resolved not to pay anything. I stayed in the house for a year and a half. I had no further contact with the office, nor did I receive any mail from them. I realized I would have to find a place to live that I could pay for. Wihtin a month of moving out of the house they had foreclosure papers served on me. That was the only communication I received...to this date. Eventually the outstanding balaince was written off, imputed to me as income and I paid the income tax and penalties for not reporting it properly.
Yes, I may have been foolish for not following up on that phone call. My state of mind at the time was very depressed. I wouldn't consider actually trashing my home, even though I was abandoning it.Depends on a person's up-bringing, I guess.
I do remember a story my daughter tells of the owhers of a small skiing resort hotel. She was employed by the company sent in to clean up. Appearently, the owners decided to get really drunk with some friends and they ended up spreading the contents of the commercial kitchen throughout the place before they left. They had been customers of mine when I had a wholesale snack route in the area, so, I knew them and the public spaces of the hotel.
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Posted by: auio on Feb 3, 2008 10:19 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Banks just loan money to people and then expect them to pay it back. Its not complicated. If you borrow money and lose it, its generally your fault. But people have an infinite capacity to blame everyone but themselves. Can you imagine this conversation with a friend:
You: Hi. I can't pay you back the $100 I borrowed because I went to the track and lost it.
Friend: OK. Maybe we can work something out. When do you think you could pay me back?
You: Screw you, you evil bastard! A greedy type like you should never have loaned me money in the first place!
Friend: OK. That doesn't seem fair, but I guess there is nothing I can do.
You: That's better. By the way, can you loan me $50? I promise I'll pay you back.
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» RE: Blame Borrowers not Banks
Posted by: BAKslider
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Posted by: Astroboy on Feb 3, 2008 10:37 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is THEIR fucking responsibility if THEY make bad loans.
IT'S JUST THAT GODDAMNED FUCKING SIMPLE!!!
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Posted by: gellero on Feb 3, 2008 2:08 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ALL the BORROWERS are ADULTS. Most are old enough to understand what 'living beyond your means' implies. Nobody forced them into a mortgage broker's office ( where most subprimes originated ). Speak to a mortgage broker sometime.....I have, because i've dated several. Banks ( to whom mortgages are sold/placed ) have underwriting criteria. If you can't afford the note, you don't get the money. Period.
So how did these deadbeats get the loans?? THEY LIED ON THEIR APPLICATIONS ( which, by the way, is a crime ). Credit rating and income can be usually verified. But NET WORTH & PRIVATE DEBT/OBLIGATIONS can not. How would they know you owe your brother in law 20 G's for a car?? A 'layaway' plan, etc., etc.
How can a loan be 'predatory' if you want it?
ALL borrowers are given a form prior to closing the deal that spells out all terms in black and white. In fact, you can back out of a mortgage in 48 hours. THAT'S THE LAW.
The fact that some people would trash what is not theirs shows WHAT TRASH THEY REALLY ARE.
My true sympathy goes out to those who followed the rules, had a cushion of savings, and had some circumstance beyond their control impair their ability to pay. Those type would never dream of trashing a house.
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» RE: FOOLS......ALL !
Posted by: Spot
» RE: FOOLS......ALL !
Posted by: BAKslider
» RE: FOOLS......ALL !
Posted by: mejsmith
Comments are closed-
Posted by: using on Feb 3, 2008 9:05 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How do you feel about this -- building a third party. We need a grass roots organization that will give us some clout. To accomplish this we need leaders with the kind of dedication the labor leaders had in the 30's. We need to direct the energies of the people who are hurting and give them hope that they can fight for their rights. That way they will not have to release their energies by trashing their houses. With accumulative energies syphoned off from the anger and pain of these times we can figure out how to rebuild a country for, by and of the people. As we gain clout, we can stop depending on our elected officials to do the right thing and work to force them to adhere to our needs. We can do this by making ourselves stronger through a group effort to boycott. By bartering and with community trade we can grow bargaining clout with the corporations as well-- i.e. you want us to buy your merch -- you have to give us paying jobs at fair wages. There is alot of talent, well educated talent with experience on this level of middle class. Yes, I believe we can make a non-violent revolution and once and for all come up with a plan to control greed and rather than having each great society that man has distroyed through corruption. Many of the bloggers are correct -- if you steal a loaf of bread from the supermarket the first thing they will do when they catch you is take the bread back..and yet we allow the theivery -- because devided we are powerless.
WHatever chance we have to make a difference, we have to unite to do it.
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» RE: question and hopeful opinion
Posted by: BAKslider
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Posted by: using on Feb 3, 2008 9:24 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We need change. Real change......and the question before us is: Can we count on our elected officials to give it to us. Slowing down the process that has been building for the last 20 or more years and has excellertated under Bush -- so we can harness our forces is our best option. Real change will come from building a strong collition that can turn into a third party. ANd while we are building this party our strenght in numbers and dedication will grow so we will gain more and more clout. To accomplish this, we need a. organization b. strong leadership c. local leaders with the dedication and fortitude of the labor union leaders of the 30's.
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Posted by: Fraud Guy on Feb 6, 2008 2:15 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hmm. I contacted my lender 5 months ago about the financial troubles I was having on a house I have been trying to sell for 2 years. Their continuing advice has been "make your payments." I asked about interest only, no ARM increase, reduced payments, deferred payments, deed in lieu, restructuring, and everything else that I could participate in. One answer: "you must continue to make your payments", and "since you cannot make your current payments, we will not stop your ARM adjustments". I have sunk $20K+ in improvements over these past two years to make it more saleable (all with much realtor input) and...nothing. Only four "buyers" in the past 10 months, all with various "concerns" that were actually given as selling points in the listing that they were surprised to find at the house. Price has dropped about 20%, and still...nothing.
Lenders are trying to avoid foreclosures....right.
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Posted by: Irv on Feb 8, 2008 12:06 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Feb 1, 2008 1:04 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wanton destruction is wanton destruction. No matter how you slice it. Destruction born of greed is still greedy destruction.
Actions have consequences. Earth to whomsoever....
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» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: mejsmith
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: maxpayne
» This is a class issue...
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: mejsmith
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: mejsmith
» No, of course not!
Posted by: J_Mo
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: Duh.
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: Duh.
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Duh.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Duh.
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Duh.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Duh.
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Duh.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Duh.
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: Duh. The person most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: "normal rules of society"
Posted by: pangolin
» RE: Duh. Oh, IT will be Such a Problem that the TAXPAYERS.
Posted by: peridot
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: J_Mo
» RE: Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: maxpayne
» Fraud is also just plain fraud.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Fraud is also just plain fraud.
Posted by: Itsthewater
» Meh. I favor education over ignorance and greed, especially when it leads to destruction.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Duh. The person most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: J_Mo
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rjs on Feb 1, 2008 1:57 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Both learn the hard way.
--rjs
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» RE: But they trashed my life?
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: But they trashed my life?
Posted by: peacefullaim
» Weapons of the weak
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» Scapegoat Up not down. Bush borrows trillions for banker's, suppliers' war profits. Money Masters
Posted by: JoAnne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: elt on Feb 1, 2008 2:13 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Just Desserts
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» Poor families long struggle to build equity in a house and default on the ARM so the bank takes all
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Just Desserts
Posted by: mejsmith
» RE: Just Desserts
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Just Desserts
Posted by: Astroboy
» RE: Just Desserts
Posted by: Trazom
» Who's Ox is Gored?
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» Banks don't want foreclosure
Posted by: BCcovers
» RE: Banks don't want foreclosure
Posted by: yellow
» Banks are out of the picture
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» RE: Banks are out of the picture
Posted by: Astroboy
» RE: Banks don't want foreclosure
Posted by: nherkowitz
» RE: Banks don't want foreclosure
Posted by: J_Mo
» RE: And the long term impact on the community
Posted by: chaoslegs
» RE: And the long term impact on the community
Posted by: buzzsaw
» Same here.
Posted by: J_Mo
» So you like wasting labor and natural resources?
Posted by: Riverman
» If the global human population is in a bubble that must inevitably pop,
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
Comments are closed-
Posted by: NoPCZone on Feb 1, 2008 2:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The business people are always running their mouths about how perfect the market is until they get in trouble. I, for one, hope they take a massive sucker punch that deflates the hugely overpriced stock on the market. Then I, with my undamaged credit, will buy on the cheap. I don't want to see anybody bailed out because they were all greedy- from the buyers through the sellers to the realtors and the loan originators.
It's time for the social climbing crowd to begin to live within their means and maybe that will clear their head the next time they decide to support politicians and policies that are against consumers and ordinary people. Pull your kid out of private school, terminate the lease on your gas-hog Suburban, rent a small house or apartment and start to live within your means.
Maybe the next time a union organizer approaches you might actually listen for a change, grow a backbone and do some good for yourself and your community. The next time you vote, maybe you will support candidates concerned with the real issues of working people instead of Neo-Con hot button BS. The next time you buy a house, maybe you will buy something more reasonable.
Meanwhile, this progressive that has been living within his means will watch the real estate market continue to deflate and buy some nice property on the cheap after the dust has settled. Maybe I'll be your landlord.
How do you like your NeoCon economics now?
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» RE: Buying Opportunity
Posted by: bitsfick
» RE: Excellent "Analysis"
Posted by: Sissy
» It may be less of a buying opportunity than you think...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: It may be less of a buying opportunity than you think...
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: It may be less of a buying opportunity than you think...
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Buying Opportunity
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: Buying Opportunity
Posted by: BCcovers
» RE: Buying Opportunity
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Buying Opportunity
Posted by: BCcovers
» RE: Buying Opportunity
Posted by: NoPCZone
» Living beyond the means
Posted by: naturalbornsolutions
» RE: Buying Opportunity
Posted by: Sushi
» Problem with those types,
Posted by: J_Mo
Comments are closed-
Posted by: bluepilgrim on Feb 1, 2008 3:55 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Corporations will let people die because it's cheaper to pay the penalties than make the workplace safe.
One might say these people are just taking the capitalist/corporate view.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Feb 1, 2008 4:13 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» That's right Max, Blame the poor. After all they actually run society and control all its resources.
Posted by: yellow
» Did you ever read the book "What's the Matter With Kansas?" by Thomas Frank?
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Did you ever read the book "What's the Matter With Kansas?" by Thomas Frank?
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Did you ever read the book "What's the Matter With Kansas?" by Thomas Frank?
Posted by: buzzsaw
» RE: Did you ever read the book "What's the Matter With Kansas?" by Thomas Frank?
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» RE: Too bad this country is filled with dysfunctional sick puppies
Posted by: ankhet
Comments are closed-
Posted by: HeKnew on Feb 1, 2008 4:13 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Government of the people, by the people and for the people.
Direct Democracy
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» RE: Terrorist: HeKnew
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Terrorist. You said it!
Posted by: Cathyc
» "The Money Masters" Link
Posted by: JoAnne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Suzon on Feb 1, 2008 4:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[Correction: The government did nothing to help them keep the homes they had been encouraged to buy (often their previously secure council flat), but they did put families into wretched B&B accommodation.]
During the same period the 157,000 wealthiest families in the UK received up to £21 billion in subsidies.
Source: Kevin Cahill's Who Owns Britain (2001).
I never read about anyone in the UK trashing their home before it was repossessed. It seems to me that trashing a home would be, in many cases, an indication of mental health. Most people tend to blame themselves or turn to drugs and alcohol.
Maybe the American monarchistic "haves and have-mores" will pause for a moment to wonder what other kind of "acting out" they might be in for.
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» RE: P.S. I'd bet that the sub-prime mortgages were based upon UK self-assessed
Posted by: makeadifference
Comments are closed-
Posted by: leland61 on Feb 1, 2008 5:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was born and raised in Michigan, the rust belt, where abandoned factories litter the landscape along with their polluted deposits left for someone else to clean up.
Hello!!! This practice has been going on by the monied elite as long as anyone can possibly remember. Now the working classes are gettng the idea. Follow the behavior of the rich and psychotic. Just dump your shit and let someone else worry about it.
There should be jail sentences in the future for a lot of these rich criminals. It won't happen because this country is run for them and by them. The last 8 years could not possibly make that any clearer for those not willfully blind.
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» "The Money Masters" link
Posted by: JoAnne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: opmoc on Feb 1, 2008 5:37 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However the timing is critical - get it wrong by just a few years and you may well be financially wasted.
The reason is that there is a correlation between average house prices and average wages which varies tremendously over time. The trend is only your friend in the short term.
The last big house price crash in the UK occurred around 1989 and it took 4 years for prices to bottom out. Taking into account the high inflation at the time, prices fell in real terms by more than one half. The fall now could be even greater, and take longer to recover as house prices are now over 6 times average wages. Expect them to fall to around 3 times average wages.
However, history doesn't always repeat itself, and selling your house now may not be a good idea, despite the prospect that it will likely continue to fall in value for the next few years.
The reason is, that it is entirely possible that the financial system as a whole could totally crash - with banks going bust. If you sell your house and rent - how can you be sure that the bank where you put any capital will not go bust and take all your money with it?
At the end of the day houses aren't investments but homes to live in and when things get tough you are usually better off, battenning down the hatches and weathering the storm.
Things will eventually get better.
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» RE: Debt is Not The Problem - It's The Timing
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: Debt is Not The Problem - It's The Timing
Posted by: buzzsaw
» Things will eventually get better
Posted by: Scott
» RE: Things will eventually get better
Posted by: opmoc
» You don't have to do what you're told. True, but...
Posted by: Cathyc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Adi on Feb 1, 2008 6:32 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» the federal reserve bank: no reserves, not federal, not public: The Money Masters (link)
Posted by: JoAnne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Cybershaman on Feb 1, 2008 7:05 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» war and depression and the fed: The Money Masters:
Posted by: JoAnne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ot on Feb 1, 2008 7:08 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...that mean-spirited, self-hating liberals would crawl out of the wood work to rationalize this type of criminal behavior on behalf of these botton-feeders in the name of corporate "greed"?
No wonder at all.
That is why these people are at the bottom and will stay that way, mere fodder for the rest of us to profit from.
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» RE: Is it any wonder...
Posted by: opmoc
» RE: Is it any wonder...
Posted by: grn1
» RE: Is it any wonder...
Posted by: billwald
» RE: Is it any wonder... only to you
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Is it any wonder... only to you
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: Is it any wonder...
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: The real stupid people...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: olympia43 on Feb 1, 2008 7:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» You're kidding right?
Posted by: BCcovers
» RE: You're kidding right?
Posted by: cmaciain
» No, s/he is not kidding, and also 100% correct.
Posted by: Scientz
» here we go again: the either/or fallacy! we don't have to chose between humans and animals
Posted by: Suzon
» RE: here we go again: the either/or fallacy! we don't have to chose between humans and animals
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: No, s/he is not kidding, and also 100% correct.
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» RE: No, s/he is not kidding, and also 100% correct.
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: No, s/he is not kidding, and also 100% correct.
Posted by: srimbael
» RE: No, s/he is not kidding, and also 100% correct.
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: more real estate dirt
Posted by: data23
» RE: more real estate dirt
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: more real estate dirt
Posted by: Libsrule
» RE: more real estate dirt
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: more real estate dirt
Posted by: Chromedome2000
» RE: more real estate dirt
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: more real estate dirt
Posted by: SaraCole
» RE: more real estate dirt
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: more real estate dirt
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: more real estate dirt
Posted by: SaraCole
» RE: more real estate dirt
Posted by: data23
» HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Posted by: Moira61
» RE: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Posted by: Moira61
» RE: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Posted by: Scientz
» Hey Scientz
Posted by: Rapunzel
» RE: Hey Scientz
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: more real estate dirt
Posted by: srimbael
Comments are closed-
Posted by: stina723 on Feb 1, 2008 7:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hey big banks and shady mortgage lending companies - what goes around comes around.
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» Klein is full of it
Posted by: Ambrose Pare
» RE: Klein is full of it...STFU
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Klein is full of it
Posted by: Morphizm
» Klein cannot be a traitor to "this" country. She has no obligation to be loyal to a foreign land.
Posted by: SayBlade
» RE: Klein is full of it - to Ambrose Pare
Posted by: stina723
» wealth and poverty, and fractional reserve banking: money masters:
Posted by: JoAnne
» The traitors occupy the White House & Congress, Ambrose!
Posted by: fsuthai
» The Shock Doctrine: destablize and conquer: The Money Masters
Posted by: JoAnne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: SteveO on Feb 1, 2008 7:44 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We didn't learn a thing from the pain we had then.
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» RE: Not the first time we've been through this
Posted by: willymack
» "same thing": air-money, prvtly prnted Lnt to u.s.,repd wth intrst (txs...our txs ): Mny Mstrs
Posted by: JoAnne
» RE: "same thing": air-money, prvtly prnted Lnt to u.s.,repd wth intrst (txs...our txs ): Mny Mstrs
Posted by: Spot
» "done this to ourselves"
Posted by: kww355
Comments are closed-
Posted by: scryberwitch on Feb 1, 2008 7:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Simply put, it's revenge....tally ho
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Simply put, it's revenge....tally ho
Posted by: srimbael
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kungfoofighterx on Feb 1, 2008 7:51 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mortgages are some creepy old world thing to me. What are the prospects of having a job or three jobs with decent pay for as long as a mortgage? What is the average amount of time people should expect to be unemployed during their mortgage? Let’s say I have a home and we paid it off after 40 years, but we have little in the way anything else because we had to sink it into our home to keep it from falling apart and paying all of the taxes on it and cover family medical bills when we didn’t have insurance during unfortunate double job change overs while my spouse was going back to school to get that third degree because the job sectors in our city changes so rapidly a degree is only good for at best 10 years and it takes 6 to pay it off not to mention the times I had to go back to school to get a new degree. Most jobs don’t seem to last more than 4 years. We did have some 401K money, but we had to cash it in to go back to school to keep our earning levels high enough so our kids could have a decent start. So now I reverse mortgage it to pay for my retirement and medical costs. My kids get nothing and the cycle of wealth is broken. Modern feudalism. I feel safer investing in things that aren’t taxed like Roth IRAs.
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» RE: A totally different world
Posted by: opmoc
» Are you related to James Joyce?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: A totally different world
Posted by: peacefullaim
Comments are closed-
Posted by: JSquercia on Feb 1, 2008 7:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Insider Trading Anyone... absolutely
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Insider Trading Anyone... absolutely...dammit
Posted by: DaBear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: PaulK on Feb 1, 2008 8:26 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First, we are infested with crooks who will rip us off bigtime. That's always true.
Second, we are infested with a government that doesn't care if the country crashes and burns. That can possibly be partially fixed with honest elections such as with the choice method of proportional representation, which inherently fights campaign bribery.
Third, we are a nation of stooges waiting to be fleeced. We buy high in the stock market and sell at the bottoms of panics. Then we pay outrageous prices for houses, mortgaging half our lives away for the houses, and abandon the houses when the market tanks. Whole cities such as Lost Wages have been built on this madness. I'm sure we could invest in tulip bulbs with the same passion.
I wish that our schools educated all of our kids to be good citizens by running speculations: stock market speculations (based on real live data), housing bubbles (same) and government spending sprees (real live data from Argentina, from Brazil, from our own country).
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» Schools 'school' children -- Parents 'educate' them
Posted by: Cathyc
» And what, exactly, is the problem with our schools?
Posted by: abbadon2007
Comments are closed-
Posted by: blue3zero on Feb 1, 2008 8:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: It's only a matter of time
Posted by: willymack
» RE: It's only a matter of time
Posted by: SalB
Comments are closed-
Posted by: redfrog on Feb 1, 2008 9:16 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These are frightening times and I don't like being afraid or having to face some of the attitudes or behaviors of others who are afraid but none of this touches who any of us are at core. Some of us are not good people, but most of us are.
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» RE: The crooks will be always with us
Posted by: DaBear
» DaBear, are you some sort of masochist?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: DaBear, are you some sort of masochist?
Posted by: fsuthai
» Honor is meaningless when it's used against us.
Posted by: heid
Comments are closed-
Posted by: DaBear on Feb 1, 2008 9:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The assumption that there are solutions is BULLSHIT. It is a LIE. The only solutions, like those offered by Barbara Boxer and Operation Hope, are not being considered let alone entering the thoughts of the money addled ruling class asshats that created, caused and are getting away scott-free with the problem and chaos THEY perpetrated.
Neither B of A nor Countrywide were reasonable with my family. We live in a campground (every 14 days we move to the next one) with a $70K annual income. Why? Because their "workouts" were only $250 less a month than the overpriced loans were originally. Because some rich prick mortgage broker told us (he LIED) the subprime was all we "qualified" for (another LIE). We found out too late. The WGA strike hit and BOOM. God bless 'Merkuh.
Anytime a rich guy makes an excuse, you can count on it being some shade of a LIE. That's who they are... just like their hero, the Chimp-Emperor.
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» RE: Those poor confused rich white males
Posted by: billwald
» Interesting...
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: Interesting...
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Interesting...
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Interesting...
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Interesting...
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Interesting...
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Interesting...
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Interesting...
Posted by: waxman
» RE: Interesting...
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Interesting...
Posted by: mejsmith
» Give it up, EncinoM...
Posted by: fsuthai
» RE: Interesting...
Posted by: mejsmith
» "We live in a campground with a $70K annual income"
Posted by: opmoc
» Do NOT insult CHIMPS!
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Landbaron on Feb 1, 2008 9:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: Gravitas on Feb 1, 2008 10:05 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sac is one of the hardest hit cities! Well, from what I saw of the nasty, evils that when on in Sac when I lived there, all I can ask is karma Sac............
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» RE: Karma Sacramento?
Posted by: heid
» They built on a floodplain the idiots.
Posted by: pangolin
Comments are closed-
Posted by: HistArch on Feb 1, 2008 10:22 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"We strongly encourage homeowners facing a financial crisis to stay in close touch with the lender holding the mortgage on their home"- screw that!!! If you have been brainwashed into thinking that a house is an investment rather than a home, you should pull out as soon as you see your investment going down. Buy low and sell dear- when you see your bankroll going down, pull out.
This is what happens when bankers, politicians, and fellow Americans consider a house a commodity. The place where you live is your home, not an asset, a money-making venture, or a savings account. Forget what the Wall Street Nostradamus' tell you- your home is where your heart is. Would you sell your heart, your family, your community? If so, you deserve exactly what you get; a lifetime of commodified reality that doesn't jibe with the touchy-feelie world we actually live in. The government or banks or other financial institutions shouldn't lift a finger to help serial homeowners out and we shouldn't lift a finger to help any of those companies who risked it on sketchy repackaged loans. If they were smart they would have enough investments to stay afloat for the long haul.
For all of you who are made a poor decision and live in an overpriced crackerbox, enjoy the fall. Remember, that over time your investments should go up and if you stick with it long enough you should be fine. Next time use your heart as well as your head.
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» Good point. Thank you.
Posted by: maxpayne
» P.S.: I wouldn't forgive Big Banks and lenders for exploiting this too far.
Posted by: maxpayne
» Victims of deceipt by the lenders...
Posted by: buffeliscious
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Feb 1, 2008 10:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» starts with the fed. why?: The Money Masters.
Posted by: JoAnne
» RE: starts with the fed. why?: The Money Masters.
Posted by: maxpayne
» Thanks for your support. Readers, please see "The Money Masters"
Posted by: JoAnne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Merum on Feb 1, 2008 10:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, to a certain extent, consumers did contribute to their own ruin. However, the system was supposed to work in such a way to protect people from making purchases they can't afford in the first place. And when you say you'll come in and buy on the cheap afterwards, well, you're no better than the Neocons that made this mess, profiting from the misfortune of others. That's very American of you.
It's easy to sit and smugly crow about "personal responsibility", but it misses the larger point. Corporate interests and the political shitbags that serve them have for years worked to take away the ability of the average consumer to make the very decisions that would keep them out of debt hell, because that very debt is another tool of the slavers to keep you in line.
At the same time, through their work on capitol hill, they have taken away all the safety nets that would allow people who got ensnared in the system to pull themselves up and dust themselves off. Bankruptcy laws have been gutted and modified to the extent that the tool is now basically useless, unless of course you happen to be a corporation, in which case you can still parachute out when your schemes backfire. Lenders have been deregulated to remove the checks and balances that were supposed to protect people from being taken advantage of. Usury laws have been changed to allow lenders to charge outrageous interest rates to desperate people who shouldn't be able to borrow more money, because it will just put them in deeper. Why? So that the monied few can make more and more.
It's no accident that personal finance is not taught in our public schools as part of core curriculum. It's no accident that people are constantly fed the notion that consumption and greed are good things, that their friends will think less of them if they don't have the right house, the right car, the latest iPod and the latest fashion.
It's no accident that the only candidates you get to hear about are the ones who will continue to support the rape and pillage of the American public. To educate people is counter to their own interest, which is to make as much money and accumulate as much power as possible.
People who say it's amoral for these people to fight back with what seems to be the only weapon available to them, have been fooled. "Social norms" are just more bullshit you've been fed to make you behave in the way that benefits the profit-mongers the most. Quietly turning over your possessions because you've been duped into financial ruin is stupid.
Time for a role reversal. Get what you can out of what you've got, and leave scorched earth behind. Make sure the corps get shafted on your way out. Leave them nothing, because they'll do the same to you.
Remember, when you ain't got nothin, you got nothin to lose.
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» RE: Because there is no valid contract.
Posted by: pangolin
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Crazy H on Feb 1, 2008 11:15 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Never the fault of those in power, never the fault of the rich who take advantage of the poor ("mere fodder for the rest of us to profit from"), never their own greed, never their fervent belief that deregulation is a good thing.
And most especially, never their own damn fault when the house of cards they built comes crashing down around them.
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» RE: "personal responsibility"
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: "personal responsibility"
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: "personal responsibility"
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: "personal responsibility"
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: "personal responsibility"
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: "personal responsibility"
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: "personal responsibility"
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: "personal responsibility"
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: "personal responsibility"
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: "personal responsibility"
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: "personal responsibility"
Posted by: mejsmith
» RE: "personal responsibility"
Posted by: Crazy H
» Oh, stop it !!!
Posted by: kww355
» RE: "personal responsibility"
Posted by: SaraCole
» RE: Personal Responsibility Goes Both Ways
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
Comments are closed-
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Feb 1, 2008 12:14 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: IS ANYONE REALLY SURPRISED ?
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: IS ANYONE REALLY SURPRISED ? Crazy H
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» Yes Anna. no one is suprised. Honesty? It's gone before the ink dries: see "Money Masters"
Posted by: JoAnne
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Posted by: harpy on Feb 1, 2008 2:32 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: It is just mortgages, it's credit cards also
Posted by: Crazy H
» When lenders compete, you win? mny mstrs:
Posted by: JoAnne
» war debt, mtg debt, credit debt, intrst cloc's a runnin'; it's SHOCK DOCTRINE: see money masters:
Posted by: JoAnne
» RE: Organize a mass default.
Posted by: pangolin
» RE: Organize a mass default.
Posted by: Trazom
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Posted by: lenox on Feb 1, 2008 3:33 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» REVOLUTION. Revolt, people, revolt!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: VOLUTION. Revolt, people, revolt!
Posted by: using
» RE: VOLUTION. Revolt, people, revolt!
Posted by: using
Comments are closed-
Posted by: fsuthai on Feb 1, 2008 5:37 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The current media controlled Presidential election process is a charade to distract, divide, and continue the conquest of America! It is time for the 2nd American Revolution and I hope that it can be accomplished without violence. Our two party, corporate funded 'purchase' of the White House and Congress must be changed. I wanted Kucinich but he was forced out early, as were a few other honest candidates. The only one remaining that has a chance in hell to make some meaningful change is Dr. Ron Paul.
Anyone who votes for the MSM candidates, ANY of the media endorsed candidates, is a 'status quo' slave undeserving of the freedoms you were born with but are rapidly losing!
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» why can no prez, no party can help where it hurts? why are we in war, in debt, in trouble? the fed:
Posted by: JoAnne
» Gawd, JoAnne, give it up! nm
Posted by: kww355
» RE: why can no prez, no party can help where it hurts? why are we in war, in debt, in trouble? the f
Posted by: melloe
» RE: why can no prez, no party can help where it hurts? why are we in war, in debt, in trouble? the f
Posted by: rollo
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Posted by: sofla100 on Feb 1, 2008 6:59 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: No Excuse: Sez you.
Posted by: pangolin
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Posted by: pangolin on Feb 1, 2008 10:01 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The usurious banks have no problem driving you personally into homelessness if that's what it takes to get their cash. As we all know there is no such thing as a corporate CEO who accepts personally the responsibility for the failure of his corporation or the loss of thousands of jobs. They all walk away with millions in their pockets when they trash a company for their own personal gain.
People facing ruin and homelessness feel they have no moral responsibility to protect the financial interests of the wealthy. When I was working property management evicted renters would do things like hit every panel of drywall with a hammer, cut electrical wires inside the walls, pour liquids like milk and beer into carpets, pour dry rice into the drains, break the windows and doors and move out. Of course some people would get really mean about it but that's another story.
The problem with having no social contract is that people on the way down have the energy to take others with them. This is the situation that is causing problems in Kenya right now. With nothing left to lose the poor have no investment in a stable future.
A society is as good as it treats the least of it's members. By that standard the US is a sewer.
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» RE: If it's good for the goose.....
Posted by: freetoast
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Posted by: stinkpiggy on Feb 2, 2008 12:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
She got her green card in January, 2004 and left me in July with debts from a failed attempt at business-around forty grand-and a small, but barely payable mortgage. Try paying bills with no job. By the time I got one, in March of 2005, I was behind enough on EVERYTHING to be unable to maintain payments to two cards that were charged off and to be struggling to get on top of the mortgage and remaining bills till today. She returned to Massachusetts, where I'd found her, hired an attorney and filed for divorce after getting her financial affairs straightened out(since she was unburdened-as in "why should I pay my share? I don't live there anymore!"- by her fiduciary obligation as co-signer on the mortgage, she could earn and save as I couldn't). The attorney threatened to grind me into chutney through attrition in court. The forty thou was a loan from my sister to set the woman up in the food business, so the judge decreed that she should get the acreage we owned(paid for, natch)and I would have the house with its imaginary value above what was owed the bank as recompense for what she technically owed my sister. The catch was that I was to have her name removed from the mortgage in short order and all would go their merry ways. My mangled credit score made that downright impossible. Even though I had paid the mortgage solo for the past two years, I get no break on that score.
Last November, the judge gave me til May of this year to get her name off, after which I will be ordered to sell the house. Imagine that! In THIS market. Now I'm faced with having to sell the thing for less than what I owe. I imagine I could, if I wished, try for sale by owner for the amount that would resolve all the problems and simply report back to the judge occasionally that no solid prospects have yet appeared. If I am ordered to sell at a loss, I won't hesitate to walk away from it, after stripping it of anything worth selling, letting them rip her credit score to shreds as well. I forgot to mention that, since her name is still on the mortgage, whenever I've come up short on money to pay bills, the mortgage is last to get paid, assuring her score takes the hit, too.
In other words, I can sympathize with many who are going through this problem in its manifest forms. Some may have brought it upon themselves, but this economic system is basically castigatingly parasitic, by which I mean that when you are down, everyone lines up to kick you and keep you down. The feeding frenzy that prevails in the market for foreclosures and selling charged off accounts encourages a whole culture of vultures to feed on the weak and principled, leaving the victims with few alternatives, if any, to save a modicum of net worth allowing anything remotely resembling a normal life.
I have thus become very hardened. I probably will, if the worst comes to pass, never own another piece of property. I'm way to old to dig my way out of this, so I will just do what I can to survive and thrive as best I can. If I must commit crimes to survive, I won't hesitate. I have no expectation at all of surcease from this criminal economic system I have now learned has been and probably always will be the norm. That a significant proportion of the population seeking redress of everyday problems through criminal means is in overwhelming superiority to those law-abiding citizens is now no surprise at all to me. I join their ranks in protest, but with full knowledge that, even in this supposedly law-driven society, it is cost-effective for law enforcement entities to ignore many crimes, thus allowing me and others to live, vultures in our own rights.
How else do you think suicide by cop came about? Is the situation really that different?
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» totally unfair. this woman should be deported.
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: True story
Posted by: Morphizm
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Posted by: rwday@cox.net on Feb 2, 2008 2:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'll condemn these desperate people's choices when I see some movement on the part of our government (Congressional Democrats, that's you) to hold the feet of these executives and pols to the fire.
Accountability - it's not just for the 'little people' anymore...
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Posted by: xvictor on Feb 2, 2008 7:08 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Greenspan has a history of creating bubbles that catastrophically burst after a few short years. He created the tech bubble and and now the mortgage crisis. He single-handedly transformed 'irrational exuberance' into a sexy animal that everyone must have. Now that animal is painfully biting back. It's so funny watching the financial types hang on to every word that used Greenspan used to say.
He worshipped gold as an object of stability back in the 60s. Then he dissed gold when he became chairman. Now he praises gold after he retired. A guy who can't make up his mind.
Also, a big part of the blame also goes to Wall Street believing that debt creation is a big money maker. So much for Bush and his "ownership society".
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Posted by: dkm on Feb 2, 2008 10:26 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: macdon1 on Feb 2, 2008 1:30 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Callibrarian on Feb 2, 2008 6:20 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And who says these home owners can afford to pay? No where in the link did it say why the banks assumed these people could pay. Did they do a study or just assume folks were rolling in it and didn't want to give it up? Things around here are not exactly cheap, and homes mean other spending like on HOA fees and furniture. Plenty of people are still technically employed, but how many of those work on commission or as needed? The construction workers and real estate agents I know are still working; they simply have little to no money to show for it.
As for trash outs, I think they are a sign of hitting bottom. Some see it as complete disrespect. I wonder if they did it out of frustration or if it was really because they could not afford to either store their furniture or take it with them.
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» RE: Why would they pay to stay in crappy situations?
Posted by: macdon1
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Posted by: LLITTL on Feb 2, 2008 8:51 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I called the FmHA office and said I would pay double mortgage payments for 4 months, which would bring us back into current status. What I heard stunned me. "You have 30 days". Now, I had been behind 4 months for several months and had no communication from them. They expected me to pay them $2760 when my income for that month was nowhere near that amount! I hung up the phone and resolved not to pay anything. I stayed in the house for a year and a half. I had no further contact with the office, nor did I receive any mail from them. I realized I would have to find a place to live that I could pay for. Wihtin a month of moving out of the house they had foreclosure papers served on me. That was the only communication I received...to this date. Eventually the outstanding balaince was written off, imputed to me as income and I paid the income tax and penalties for not reporting it properly.
Yes, I may have been foolish for not following up on that phone call. My state of mind at the time was very depressed. I wouldn't consider actually trashing my home, even though I was abandoning it.Depends on a person's up-bringing, I guess.
I do remember a story my daughter tells of the owhers of a small skiing resort hotel. She was employed by the company sent in to clean up. Appearently, the owners decided to get really drunk with some friends and they ended up spreading the contents of the commercial kitchen throughout the place before they left. They had been customers of mine when I had a wholesale snack route in the area, so, I knew them and the public spaces of the hotel.
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Posted by: auio on Feb 3, 2008 10:19 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Banks just loan money to people and then expect them to pay it back. Its not complicated. If you borrow money and lose it, its generally your fault. But people have an infinite capacity to blame everyone but themselves. Can you imagine this conversation with a friend:
You: Hi. I can't pay you back the $100 I borrowed because I went to the track and lost it.
Friend: OK. Maybe we can work something out. When do you think you could pay me back?
You: Screw you, you evil bastard! A greedy type like you should never have loaned me money in the first place!
Friend: OK. That doesn't seem fair, but I guess there is nothing I can do.
You: That's better. By the way, can you loan me $50? I promise I'll pay you back.
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» RE: Blame Borrowers not Banks
Posted by: BAKslider
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Posted by: Astroboy on Feb 3, 2008 10:37 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is THEIR fucking responsibility if THEY make bad loans.
IT'S JUST THAT GODDAMNED FUCKING SIMPLE!!!
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Posted by: gellero on Feb 3, 2008 2:08 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ALL the BORROWERS are ADULTS. Most are old enough to understand what 'living beyond your means' implies. Nobody forced them into a mortgage broker's office ( where most subprimes originated ). Speak to a mortgage broker sometime.....I have, because i've dated several. Banks ( to whom mortgages are sold/placed ) have underwriting criteria. If you can't afford the note, you don't get the money. Period.
So how did these deadbeats get the loans?? THEY LIED ON THEIR APPLICATIONS ( which, by the way, is a crime ). Credit rating and income can be usually verified. But NET WORTH & PRIVATE DEBT/OBLIGATIONS can not. How would they know you owe your brother in law 20 G's for a car?? A 'layaway' plan, etc., etc.
How can a loan be 'predatory' if you want it?
ALL borrowers are given a form prior to closing the deal that spells out all terms in black and white. In fact, you can back out of a mortgage in 48 hours. THAT'S THE LAW.
The fact that some people would trash what is not theirs shows WHAT TRASH THEY REALLY ARE.
My true sympathy goes out to those who followed the rules, had a cushion of savings, and had some circumstance beyond their control impair their ability to pay. Those type would never dream of trashing a house.
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» RE: FOOLS......ALL !
Posted by: Spot
» RE: FOOLS......ALL !
Posted by: BAKslider
» RE: FOOLS......ALL !
Posted by: mejsmith
Comments are closed-
Posted by: using on Feb 3, 2008 9:05 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How do you feel about this -- building a third party. We need a grass roots organization that will give us some clout. To accomplish this we need leaders with the kind of dedication the labor leaders had in the 30's. We need to direct the energies of the people who are hurting and give them hope that they can fight for their rights. That way they will not have to release their energies by trashing their houses. With accumulative energies syphoned off from the anger and pain of these times we can figure out how to rebuild a country for, by and of the people. As we gain clout, we can stop depending on our elected officials to do the right thing and work to force them to adhere to our needs. We can do this by making ourselves stronger through a group effort to boycott. By bartering and with community trade we can grow bargaining clout with the corporations as well-- i.e. you want us to buy your merch -- you have to give us paying jobs at fair wages. There is alot of talent, well educated talent with experience on this level of middle class. Yes, I believe we can make a non-violent revolution and once and for all come up with a plan to control greed and rather than having each great society that man has distroyed through corruption. Many of the bloggers are correct -- if you steal a loaf of bread from the supermarket the first thing they will do when they catch you is take the bread back..and yet we allow the theivery -- because devided we are powerless.
WHatever chance we have to make a difference, we have to unite to do it.
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» RE: question and hopeful opinion
Posted by: BAKslider
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Posted by: using on Feb 3, 2008 9:24 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We need change. Real change......and the question before us is: Can we count on our elected officials to give it to us. Slowing down the process that has been building for the last 20 or more years and has excellertated under Bush -- so we can harness our forces is our best option. Real change will come from building a strong collition that can turn into a third party. ANd while we are building this party our strenght in numbers and dedication will grow so we will gain more and more clout. To accomplish this, we need a. organization b. strong leadership c. local leaders with the dedication and fortitude of the labor union leaders of the 30's.
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Posted by: Fraud Guy on Feb 6, 2008 2:15 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hmm. I contacted my lender 5 months ago about the financial troubles I was having on a house I have been trying to sell for 2 years. Their continuing advice has been "make your payments." I asked about interest only, no ARM increase, reduced payments, deferred payments, deed in lieu, restructuring, and everything else that I could participate in. One answer: "you must continue to make your payments", and "since you cannot make your current payments, we will not stop your ARM adjustments". I have sunk $20K+ in improvements over these past two years to make it more saleable (all with much realtor input) and...nothing. Only four "buyers" in the past 10 months, all with various "concerns" that were actually given as selling points in the listing that they were surprised to find at the house. Price has dropped about 20%, and still...nothing.
Lenders are trying to avoid foreclosures....right.
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Posted by: Irv on Feb 8, 2008 12:06 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Tax the Corporations and the Rich or Take Draconian Cuts -- the Decision Is Ours
Home Underwater? Walk Away from Geithner's Perverse 'Homeowner Relief' Plan
Fury at Wall St. Banks Fuels Public Action for Move Your Money Campaign




