COMMENTS: 27
Should Nursing Homes Be for Profit?
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"The problem is, in the nursing home industry, making money means cutting care," says Julie Eisenhardt, a spokeswoman for Service Employees International Union (SEIU), which represents employees at about 15 Manor Care homes and which spearheaded a campaign to raise awareness about the buyout.
In 2006, Manor Care, which operates more than 500 nursing, rehabilitation and assisted living facilities in 32 states, posted $167 million in profits and $3.6 billion in revenues. Manor Care shareholders were slated to get $67 for each share as part of the deal.
The Carlyle Group has holdings in several industries, including healthcare, defense and energy. Former President George H.W. Bush was one of its advisers until 2003.
Officials from both firms have denied plans to reduce staffing or slash services following the takeover, and have said Manor Care will continue to be run as it was before the buyout. "There's not going to be a cut in staff and there's no reason for quality to go down," says Rick Rump, a spokesman for Manor Care. "Carlyle is going to realize a return in investment by our company growing and becoming a better provider of healthcare."
The deal's critics also say investment companies create Byzantine ownership structures that impede regulation and shield the firms from accountability for negligent care or wrongful death accusations.
Rump says that Carlyle would not separate its assets from its operations as some private equity firms have done and that the Manor Care management team would remain the same.
Carlyle officials did not return calls by deadline, but Karen Bechtel, the company's managing director and global head of healthcare, said in a statement: "We are pleased to back a high-quality company and management team. We support [Manor Care CEO] Paul Ormond's strategic vision and support his commitment to quality patient care."
But a preliminary study of a large nursing home chain owned by a private investment firm found that staffing of registered nursing homes dropped by 8 percent and deficiencies that harmed residents doubled.
"They're not there to invest in the care for the residents, they're there to make money," says Charlene Harrington, a professor of nursing at the University of California, San Francisco, and author of the 18-month study. "The way these chains have made money is by cutting the staff to the bare bones and pocketing the profits."
Harrington, who is part of a team that has researched nursing homes for 25 years, says the privatization of chains allows companies to shirk regulatory scrutiny because they are not required to file financial documents with the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) or state regulatory agencies.
"These chains have had so many quality problems that they have wanted to go private in order to keep from having the litigation they have," she said.
A recent New York Times analysis of government data from 2000 to 2006 found that the quality of care declined at nursing homes that were taken over by investment firms such as Warburg Pincus and Carlyle because of cost-cutting and staff reduction.
David Adams, 40, entered one of Manor Care's homes in Pittsburgh, Pa., after he ruptured his Achilles tendon playing basketball. He says the care at the Shadyside Nursing and Rehabilitation Center was substandard before the takeover, and he's concerned it will only get worse.
"They're coming up short -- they do the minimum they can get away with and no more," says Adams, a former construction worker and cook, who testified during state hearings in Pennsylvania on the buyout. Adams says he contracted infections because his bandages weren't changed regularly, received the wrong medication and was stranded for 45 minutes after falling in his bathroom.
"One day I will leave," he says, "but there are people that are going to die here."
The Carlyle Group's buyout was announced last summer and given the green light by the SEC. Shareholders approved the deal in a December 2007 meeting. After the sale, several state health departments, including those in Illinois and Michigan, still had to approve the transfer of licenses from Manor Care to Carlyle, but Manor Care's Rump says he expected the transfers to be granted.
In November, legislators in Washington, D.C., held hearings on the issue of care at facilities owned by private investment firms, and hearings took place in several states.
In West Virginia, regulators reconsidered their initial approval of a deal just days before the completion of the sale. But after a Dec. 14 hearing, the state Health Care Authority lifted a stay on the approval, which would affect seven West Virginia nursing facilities. Manor Care had protested the stay, saying the delay was costing investors $1 million per day.
In Illinois, legislators and union leaders voiced concern about the deal.
"I think the size of the transaction, the nature of the business of the proposed buyer and the effects that could be felt by our most frail and vulnerable populations require us to give the proposal extra scrutiny," said State Rep. Greg Harris (D-Chicago) at a December hearing before the Illinois Department of Public Health, which regulates the state's nursing facilities.
In December, financial news service Bloomberg reported that the Manor Care purchase was the eighteenth sale of a nursing home operator in the United States in four years. Experts say investment firms' interest in nursing facilities is partially an effort to cash in on the aging of baby boomers into the system.
"As boomers get older, taking care of them is going to be big business," says Eisenhardt of SEIU. "The question is: Do we as a society think it's right that people are trying to make money off taking care of our most vulnerable population?"
"
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: NoPCZone on Jan 28, 2008 12:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
2- Misconduct, willful neglect, and denial of prescribed care will be punished with both civil and criminal charges against the licensee.
3- Rate schedules for compensation/billing will be regulated and allow for no greater than a 5% net profit.
4- Strict rules covering nurse ( not attendant- nurse) patient ratios will be enacted and enforced to assure proper and competent care. Additional rules requiring licensed and credentialed therapists (not nurses) will deliver respiratory, physical, occupational and speech therapy.
5- All licensed facilities will be subject to inspection by any local, state or federal health department or law enforcement agency at any time without a warrant or court order when investigating claims relating to cleanliness, neglect, physical safety or imprisonment of a competent person wishing to leave. Acceptance of the license is implied consent to such searches without a warrant or court order upon receipt of any complaint.
That will get the money grubbing b*stards out of the business.
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» RE: Time For Some Common Sense Regulation
Posted by: Joe
» "force people to take care of their own families"!!!???
Posted by: olderworker
» RE: Time For Some Common Sense Regulation
Posted by: Fiona
» RE: Time For Some Common Sense Regulation
Posted by: AndyF
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cisc on Jan 28, 2008 5:39 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Jan 28, 2008 6:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
IF IT MAKES MONEY, YOU DON'T MAKE APOLOGIES
Hard to believe, in the country I grew up in, that this precept should become the moral compass by which all value judgements are made.
From the highest person to the regular Joe Schmoe, THIS has become the means by which success is measured. Our whole society is shot-through with it.
Stop worrying about pollution, global warming, the Rapture, or whatever bogeyman-man-of the week our glorius all-American MSM puts out. Because THIS is what will really kill our country in the long run.
The Christo-nazis rant that god destroyed Sodom because of it's butt-fuc*ing, but in this country doing this to your fellows, in a figurative economic sense, is likely to get you on the cover of Forbes.
Where is the fire from heaven when we need it?
Sorry folks, my rant for a Monday morning.
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Posted by: greentime on Jan 28, 2008 6:51 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At these facilities, whether assisted care or nursing homes, the costs are staggering, the care is so convoluted and complex that any inquiry results primarily in one excuse after another. Everything is based on liability and regulations and profit, profit, profit.
While there are some lovely and truly caring people who work there, they are overworked and underpaid. They are not allowed to truly care. I have learned to expect very little. I warn every one of us that what is ahead is nothing more than a false fronted endgame to skim off any transferable wealth we accululate. Profit means just that profit. We are each expected to die with nothing.
My father's last days were spent bored, because the activities director had left; misdiagnosed because there is no comphrehensive medical service, and in the end we had to pay and pay and pay for every hour of care that assisted care would not and could not provide. Hospice was called in the end and while they were good, due to a snowstorm, they could not arrive in time to administer pain relief. The person assigned to my father at the assisted care facility refused to administer the pain medication available there because... well, no one will even address this. I suspect religious beliefs or fear of violating some regulation. This was in one of the "better" assisted care facilities.
I absolutely reject the very idea that some should have better care than others because of their ability to pay. If this is American health care then we are truly a failed nation.
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Posted by: AlterEg0 on Jan 28, 2008 7:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only medical procedures that could be made "for profit", could be face lifts, whimsical liposuctions and nose jobs, unless prescribed by a doctor for other than "make me young and pretty" reasons.
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Jan 28, 2008 7:16 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Should any medical services be for profit? How about electricity?
Posted by: greentime
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Posted by: Joe on Jan 28, 2008 7:19 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: why shouldn't they
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: why shouldn't they
Posted by: stlaura
» RE: why shouldn't they
Posted by: Fiona
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Intellect on Jan 28, 2008 7:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is there any difference between corporate owned nursing homes and corporate owned hospitals....or health insurance companies that profit from denying care to their policyholders?
We need a healthcare revolution in this country, with strict government regulation of all healthcare facilities and single payer - government operated healthcare coverage for every citizen.
Until we have that there will commonly be abuse of patients (and policyholders) due to profit motive, and when there are abuses people die.
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Posted by: weslen1 on Jan 28, 2008 8:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now, instead of paying DOCTORS to provide HEALTH CARE, we have CORPORATE EXECUTIVES to DENY IT.
What a long long long way we've come.
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Posted by: Wigs on Jan 28, 2008 8:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The profit making motivation of management: cutting of staff; acceptance of residents who were well beyond that level of care if their families were willing to pay more money; acceptance of pets when residents could not walk their pets, with the promise staff would care for them, leaving rooms reeking with animal feces; residents left to develop huge bedsores with staff taking no responsibility; a small dining area where violations of food care encouraged a spread of an epidemic; reuse of mopping water for 20 rooms because cleaning staff had overwhelming loads; staff who were not interested in organizing because they felt FL labor laws would make it fruitless; residents who were forced to "socialize" with insulting games which ignored their real interests; the utter inability for any residents to report what was happening because they were not believed.
The day I insisted on taking my father in for a diagnosis of colon cancer when the floor staff told me with impatience that nothing was wrong with him, I decided to take whatever time was needed to stay with my parents. With one suitcase for what I had intended to be a one week stay,I moved in. They were both in their mid-nineties My father died of cancer; my mother had a slower decline but I figured out how to care for them every step of the way. We had the best possible year and a half.
The particular Assisted Living facility of my parents was bought up by a conglomerate soon after they moved in. Because I was on the floor all the time I was able to see first hand the outrage of
profit incentive care. Part of the outrage is, in fact, the neglect our culture has of our older parents These people who've had rich lives are reduced to aimlessly walking the floors with a walker. They feel abandoned; they are depressed. They are dumped off by families who visit them from other states maybe twice a year, getting a good report from the facility.
Again and again I witnessed cover-ups prepared by the facility for an expected family visit. If a client had fallen from neglect of floor staff, the story was reversed to blame the resident. I reported what I saw to families again and again and had management threaten to throw my parents out. They were too frail to be moved. It was a nightmare.
The corporate control of care facilities for the elderly is the same as the privatization of health care, with the disastrous results we have seen. Those progressives with the means participate with a hypocracy which is palitable. While we seek to improve their care and to fight the profit incentive of elder care, we need to examine our own sell out to make our own lives more comfortable by placing our parents in such facilities. The horror stories of profit making for elder care will grow as our older population increases. It needs our attention.
LBB
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Posted by: Chloe2005 on Jan 28, 2008 8:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: DanoM on Jan 28, 2008 9:42 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The article seems to be more against the Carlyle Group than against nursing home profits. Although I'm not a fan of some the Carlyle Groups holdings and some of their investors I can tell you that they do run some very successful businesses. They generally fix up what they buy to make it top-notch (speaking from experience with their datacenters), and I would assume that's what they intend to do here. They buy a business that really could use some fixing, and with a few years of work, organization and direction they are then able to sell a company that is greatly improved and much more efficient. I don't know if they will do that here, but it would be their normal practice.
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Posted by: billwald on Jan 28, 2008 10:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Ardie on Jan 28, 2008 1:25 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: SirGrifflet on Jan 28, 2008 4:18 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Home number two had no pleasant amenities at all to speak of. The physical plant was adequate during the day but had no visible staff to deal with naturally occurring biohazards in common lavatories cafeterias or other common or private spaces. Medication was rarely received on time and when doses were missed patients were forced to wait until the next dosing periods. Due to medical neglect I was overmedicated, developed double pneumonia had to be hospitalized, intubated by tracheotomy and placed on a respirator for eleven months. This home was also a privately operated facility.
Home number three where I now reside is in an older building whose owner is constantly undertaking projects to upgrade and maintain the physical plant. The food while not exactly haute cuisine is tasty and adequate for maintaining strength and health. This facility is run by a family owned company who has operated it for several generations. Every year the state of New York makes inspections of all facets of the operation. The facility always passes with flying colors.
One of the main things that people faced with putting loved ones into any type long care facility should know is that residents whose families are frequent visitors tend to do better. Having people ask questions on behalf of their kin lets nursing staff and administrators know that people are watching what they do and neglect doing.
The main thing is that state agencies need to monitor every aspect of nursing home operations through licensing procedures and frequent inspections. Since so much funding is by state and federal agencies it is both the moral and fiscal obligation of the government to assure proper use of the publics funds.
The licenses of the medical personnel themselves should be subject to revocation, suspension and/or frequent review by the state, based on supervisory and patient/relative complaints.
The bottom line is that for profit nursing homes can and do work when properly supervised by the state and monitored by the families of residents.
Martin Griffin
New York City
SirGriffletNY@aol.com
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Posted by: willymack on Jan 28, 2008 5:18 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Jersey Devil on Jan 28, 2008 6:34 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Fat Cat Executive Paydays
Posted by: peacefullaim
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Posted by: logansafi on Jan 29, 2008 4:48 PM
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Jan 28, 2008 12:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
2- Misconduct, willful neglect, and denial of prescribed care will be punished with both civil and criminal charges against the licensee.
3- Rate schedules for compensation/billing will be regulated and allow for no greater than a 5% net profit.
4- Strict rules covering nurse ( not attendant- nurse) patient ratios will be enacted and enforced to assure proper and competent care. Additional rules requiring licensed and credentialed therapists (not nurses) will deliver respiratory, physical, occupational and speech therapy.
5- All licensed facilities will be subject to inspection by any local, state or federal health department or law enforcement agency at any time without a warrant or court order when investigating claims relating to cleanliness, neglect, physical safety or imprisonment of a competent person wishing to leave. Acceptance of the license is implied consent to such searches without a warrant or court order upon receipt of any complaint.
That will get the money grubbing b*stards out of the business.
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» RE: Time For Some Common Sense Regulation
Posted by: Joe
» "force people to take care of their own families"!!!???
Posted by: olderworker
» RE: Time For Some Common Sense Regulation
Posted by: Fiona
» RE: Time For Some Common Sense Regulation
Posted by: AndyF
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cisc on Jan 28, 2008 5:39 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Jan 28, 2008 6:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
IF IT MAKES MONEY, YOU DON'T MAKE APOLOGIES
Hard to believe, in the country I grew up in, that this precept should become the moral compass by which all value judgements are made.
From the highest person to the regular Joe Schmoe, THIS has become the means by which success is measured. Our whole society is shot-through with it.
Stop worrying about pollution, global warming, the Rapture, or whatever bogeyman-man-of the week our glorius all-American MSM puts out. Because THIS is what will really kill our country in the long run.
The Christo-nazis rant that god destroyed Sodom because of it's butt-fuc*ing, but in this country doing this to your fellows, in a figurative economic sense, is likely to get you on the cover of Forbes.
Where is the fire from heaven when we need it?
Sorry folks, my rant for a Monday morning.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: greentime on Jan 28, 2008 6:51 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At these facilities, whether assisted care or nursing homes, the costs are staggering, the care is so convoluted and complex that any inquiry results primarily in one excuse after another. Everything is based on liability and regulations and profit, profit, profit.
While there are some lovely and truly caring people who work there, they are overworked and underpaid. They are not allowed to truly care. I have learned to expect very little. I warn every one of us that what is ahead is nothing more than a false fronted endgame to skim off any transferable wealth we accululate. Profit means just that profit. We are each expected to die with nothing.
My father's last days were spent bored, because the activities director had left; misdiagnosed because there is no comphrehensive medical service, and in the end we had to pay and pay and pay for every hour of care that assisted care would not and could not provide. Hospice was called in the end and while they were good, due to a snowstorm, they could not arrive in time to administer pain relief. The person assigned to my father at the assisted care facility refused to administer the pain medication available there because... well, no one will even address this. I suspect religious beliefs or fear of violating some regulation. This was in one of the "better" assisted care facilities.
I absolutely reject the very idea that some should have better care than others because of their ability to pay. If this is American health care then we are truly a failed nation.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AlterEg0 on Jan 28, 2008 7:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only medical procedures that could be made "for profit", could be face lifts, whimsical liposuctions and nose jobs, unless prescribed by a doctor for other than "make me young and pretty" reasons.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Jan 28, 2008 7:16 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Should any medical services be for profit? How about electricity?
Posted by: greentime
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Posted by: Joe on Jan 28, 2008 7:19 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: why shouldn't they
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: why shouldn't they
Posted by: stlaura
» RE: why shouldn't they
Posted by: Fiona
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Intellect on Jan 28, 2008 7:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is there any difference between corporate owned nursing homes and corporate owned hospitals....or health insurance companies that profit from denying care to their policyholders?
We need a healthcare revolution in this country, with strict government regulation of all healthcare facilities and single payer - government operated healthcare coverage for every citizen.
Until we have that there will commonly be abuse of patients (and policyholders) due to profit motive, and when there are abuses people die.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: weslen1 on Jan 28, 2008 8:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now, instead of paying DOCTORS to provide HEALTH CARE, we have CORPORATE EXECUTIVES to DENY IT.
What a long long long way we've come.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Wigs on Jan 28, 2008 8:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The profit making motivation of management: cutting of staff; acceptance of residents who were well beyond that level of care if their families were willing to pay more money; acceptance of pets when residents could not walk their pets, with the promise staff would care for them, leaving rooms reeking with animal feces; residents left to develop huge bedsores with staff taking no responsibility; a small dining area where violations of food care encouraged a spread of an epidemic; reuse of mopping water for 20 rooms because cleaning staff had overwhelming loads; staff who were not interested in organizing because they felt FL labor laws would make it fruitless; residents who were forced to "socialize" with insulting games which ignored their real interests; the utter inability for any residents to report what was happening because they were not believed.
The day I insisted on taking my father in for a diagnosis of colon cancer when the floor staff told me with impatience that nothing was wrong with him, I decided to take whatever time was needed to stay with my parents. With one suitcase for what I had intended to be a one week stay,I moved in. They were both in their mid-nineties My father died of cancer; my mother had a slower decline but I figured out how to care for them every step of the way. We had the best possible year and a half.
The particular Assisted Living facility of my parents was bought up by a conglomerate soon after they moved in. Because I was on the floor all the time I was able to see first hand the outrage of
profit incentive care. Part of the outrage is, in fact, the neglect our culture has of our older parents These people who've had rich lives are reduced to aimlessly walking the floors with a walker. They feel abandoned; they are depressed. They are dumped off by families who visit them from other states maybe twice a year, getting a good report from the facility.
Again and again I witnessed cover-ups prepared by the facility for an expected family visit. If a client had fallen from neglect of floor staff, the story was reversed to blame the resident. I reported what I saw to families again and again and had management threaten to throw my parents out. They were too frail to be moved. It was a nightmare.
The corporate control of care facilities for the elderly is the same as the privatization of health care, with the disastrous results we have seen. Those progressives with the means participate with a hypocracy which is palitable. While we seek to improve their care and to fight the profit incentive of elder care, we need to examine our own sell out to make our own lives more comfortable by placing our parents in such facilities. The horror stories of profit making for elder care will grow as our older population increases. It needs our attention.
LBB
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Posted by: Chloe2005 on Jan 28, 2008 8:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: DanoM on Jan 28, 2008 9:42 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The article seems to be more against the Carlyle Group than against nursing home profits. Although I'm not a fan of some the Carlyle Groups holdings and some of their investors I can tell you that they do run some very successful businesses. They generally fix up what they buy to make it top-notch (speaking from experience with their datacenters), and I would assume that's what they intend to do here. They buy a business that really could use some fixing, and with a few years of work, organization and direction they are then able to sell a company that is greatly improved and much more efficient. I don't know if they will do that here, but it would be their normal practice.
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Posted by: billwald on Jan 28, 2008 10:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Ardie on Jan 28, 2008 1:25 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: SirGrifflet on Jan 28, 2008 4:18 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Home number two had no pleasant amenities at all to speak of. The physical plant was adequate during the day but had no visible staff to deal with naturally occurring biohazards in common lavatories cafeterias or other common or private spaces. Medication was rarely received on time and when doses were missed patients were forced to wait until the next dosing periods. Due to medical neglect I was overmedicated, developed double pneumonia had to be hospitalized, intubated by tracheotomy and placed on a respirator for eleven months. This home was also a privately operated facility.
Home number three where I now reside is in an older building whose owner is constantly undertaking projects to upgrade and maintain the physical plant. The food while not exactly haute cuisine is tasty and adequate for maintaining strength and health. This facility is run by a family owned company who has operated it for several generations. Every year the state of New York makes inspections of all facets of the operation. The facility always passes with flying colors.
One of the main things that people faced with putting loved ones into any type long care facility should know is that residents whose families are frequent visitors tend to do better. Having people ask questions on behalf of their kin lets nursing staff and administrators know that people are watching what they do and neglect doing.
The main thing is that state agencies need to monitor every aspect of nursing home operations through licensing procedures and frequent inspections. Since so much funding is by state and federal agencies it is both the moral and fiscal obligation of the government to assure proper use of the publics funds.
The licenses of the medical personnel themselves should be subject to revocation, suspension and/or frequent review by the state, based on supervisory and patient/relative complaints.
The bottom line is that for profit nursing homes can and do work when properly supervised by the state and monitored by the families of residents.
Martin Griffin
New York City
SirGriffletNY@aol.com
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Posted by: willymack on Jan 28, 2008 5:18 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Jersey Devil on Jan 28, 2008 6:34 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Fat Cat Executive Paydays
Posted by: peacefullaim
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Posted by: logansafi on Jan 29, 2008 4:48 PM
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