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The American Dream Is Alive and Well ... in Finland!
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The belief that our chance of moving up the economic ladder is limited only by our innate abilities and our appetite for hard work is almost universal in the United States. When you define the "American Dream" as the ability of working-class families to afford a decent life -- to put their kids through school, have access to quality healthcare and a secure retirement -- most will tell you it simply doesn't exist anymore. In stark contrast, when you define it according to mobility, the picture is radically different; according to a study of public opinion in 25 rich countries, Americans are almost twice as likely to believe that "people get rewarded for intelligence and skill" than working people in other advanced economies (PDF). At the same time, fewer than one in five say that coming from a wealthy family is "essential" or "very important" to getting ahead -- significantly lower than the 25-country average.
It's impossible to overstate the impact that has on our policy debates. Americans are less than half as likely as people in other advanced economies to believe that it's "the responsibility of government to reduce differences in income." Working Americans are parties to a unique social contract: They give up much of the economic security that citizens of other wealthy countries take for granted in exchange for a more "dynamic," meritorious economy that offers opportunity that's limited only by their own desire to get ahead. Of course, it's never explicitly stated, and most of us don't know about the deal, but it's reinforced all the time in our economic discourse.
But new research suggests the United States' much-ballyhooed upward mobility is a myth, and one that's slipping further from reality with each new generation. On average, younger Americans are not doing better than their parents did, it's harder to move up the economic ladder in the United States than it is in a number of other wealthy countries, and a person in today's work force is as likely to experience downward mobility as he or she is to move up.
Moreover, the single greatest predictor of how much an American will earn is how much their parents make. In short, the United States, contrary to popular belief, is not a true meritocracy, and the American worker is getting a bum deal, the worst of both worlds. Not only is a significant portion of the middle class hanging on by the narrowest of threads, not only do fewer working people have secure retirements to look forward to, not only are nearly one in seven Americans uninsured, but working people also enjoy less opportunity to pull themselves up by their bootstraps than those in a number of other advanced economies.
Moving on up?
Researchers look at two kinds of economic mobility: "absolute mobility," which is the degree to which one generation does better than the one before it, and "relative mobility," or how easy it is to move up in society through smarts, talent, hard work, etc.
New research by Julia Isaacs, a fellow with the Economic Mobility Project, looked at both measures using a unique set of data that allowed her to directly compare how people were doing in the late 1990s and early 2000s with the incomes of their parents in the late 1960s.
Isaacs, using family income data, found that the current generation as a whole is doing better than the previous generation -- that's absolute mobility -- but that the nation's income is distributed much less evenly than it was a generation ago.
And family incomes tend to obscure the degree of overall mobility, because much of the past three decades' growth in household income was a result of more women joining the workforce. When the Brookings Institution's Isabel Sawhill and John Morton looked at four generations of income data for men alone (PDF), they came up with a very different picture. When they compared men aged 30-39 in 1994 with their fathers at the same point in their careers, they found that median incomes had increased by just 0.2 percent annually during the past three decades. But, they noted, "the story changes for a younger cohort." Men in their thirties in 2004 had a median income that was, on average, 12 percent less than that of their fathers' generation at the same age. The scholars concluded: "The up-escalator that has historically ensured that each generation would do better than the last may not be working very well."
But it's relative mobility that really speaks to the health -- or lack thereof -- of the American Dream, and Isaacs' conclusions are stunning. "Contrary to American beliefs about equality of opportunity," she wrote, "a child's economic position is heavily influenced by that of his or her parents:"
- Children of middle-income parents have a near-equal likelihood of ending up in any other quintile, presenting equal promise and peril for those born to middle-class parents.
- The "rags to riches" story works in Hollywood but not on Main Street. Only 6 percent of children born to parents with family income at the very bottom move to the very top.
Isaacs categorized American families as belonging to one of four groups: the "upwardly mobile" who do better relative to their parents, those "riding the tide" -- families that earn more than their parents but remain in the same relative position on the economic ladder -- those "falling despite the tide," a small group who are earning more than their parents but who nonetheless fell into a lower position on the ladder, and those who are "downwardly mobile." The key take-away is that American families are just as likely to be downwardly mobile -- 33 percent fall into the group -- as they are to join the 34 percent who move up.
It's crucial to understand the relationship between inequality and immobility, and central to the relationship is the concept of "intergenerational assistance." That's a fancy way of saying that a person's chances to advance economically are very much impacted by whether his or her family can help with tuition payments, a down payment on a house or seed money to start a business. The wealthy don't pass on their status through inheritance alone, but by smoothing the way for their children.
In an interview last year, Dalton Conley, director of NYU's Center for Advanced Social Science Research, compared two hypothetical kids -- one from a family with some money and the other from poor parents. Both are born with the same level of intelligence, both are ambitious and both work hard in school. In a meritocracy, the two would enjoy the same opportunity to get ahead. But the fact that one might graduate from college free and clear while the other is burdened with $50,000 in debt makes a huge difference in terms of their long-term earnings prospects. That's just one of the myriad ways that parents pass their economic status to their children. Conley concluded: "When you are talking about the difference between financing their kid's college education, starting a new business, moving if they need to move for a better job opportunity -- [differences] in net worth might make the difference between upward mobility and stagnation."
As bleak as the recent findings about our ability to move up are, the picture for American families would look much worse if not for the increasing number of women in the work force. Women, while still earning less than their male counterparts, have had far greater upward mobility over the past three decades, largely because they had farther to go to get to the same place. While men's employment rates, hours worked and wages have been flat or declining during that period, all three measures have increased for women. Isaacs concluded: "Family incomes have grown slightly because the increase in women's earnings has more than offset stagnant male earnings."
The streets are paved with gold … in Denmark
Several studies released in recent years suggest that, contrary to popular opinion, Americans enjoy significantly less upward mobility than citizens of a number of other industrialized nations (some of the studies can be accessed here, here and here). German workers have 1.5 times the mobility of Americans, Canada is nearly 2.5 times more mobile and Denmark is 3 times more mobile. Norway, Finland, Sweden and France (France!) are all more mobile societies than the United States. Of the countries included in the studies, the United States ranked near the bottom; only the United Kingdom came in lower.
Blame the "neos"
Unlike inequality, which some classical economists and most conservative pundits dismiss as irrelevant, there's broad agreement across the ideological spectrum about the importance of mobility. In the United States, where we take for granted levels of inequality and poverty that would be a front-page scandal in most advanced economies, the stakes are that much higher. It's one thing living in a new gilded age when we all have a fair shot at ending up among the "haves," but it's something else altogether when a nation's wealth is concentrated at the top of a rigidly stratified society. As Dalton Conley put it, the fact that parents' wealth is the strongest predictor of where kids will end up "very manifestly displays the anti-meritocracy in America -- the reproduction of social class without the inheritance of any innate ability."
But it's the interplay of a number of factors that determines social mobility, and there's heated debate about what's caused these changes in the American economy and what their policy implications might be.
Three trends help explain why it's so much harder to get ahead in America today than it was for previous generations of working people, and why it's apparently easier to get ahead in more socially oriented countries: differences in education, the decline in union membership and loss of good manufacturing jobs and, more generally, a relatively weaker social safety net. Roughly speaking, the decrease in relative mobility from generation to generation correlates with the rise of "backlash" conservatism, the advent of Reaganomics and the series of massive changes in industrial relations and other policies that people loosely refer to as the "era of globalization."
The United States is the only advanced country in which the federal government is not directly involved in higher education. That's played a role in the dramatic increase in the average costs of a college education since the post-World War II era. In 1957, for example, a full-time student at the University of Minnesota paid $111 per year in tuition, which, in today's dollars, is about $750. During the 2005-2006 school year, in-state tuition at the University of Minnesota was $8,040. As education writer Naomi Rockler-Gladen noted, that's an inflation-adjusted increase of 1,000 percent since 1957. At almost $10,000 in average costs (in 2002), a public university education in America is a lot more difficult to finance than it was a generation ago. That impacts mobility; a college degree is a ladder -- one of the classic methods by which hard work and intelligence could be translated into economic success.
Sawhill looked at the relationship between education and mobility (PDF) and concluded that "at virtually every level, education in America tends to perpetuate rather than compensate for existing inequalities." She pointed to three reasons for that.
First, we have a relatively weak K-12 system. "American students perform poorly on international assessments," she wrote. "Colleges are forced to provide remedial work to a large share of entering freshmen, and employers complain about workers' basic skills." A society with a weak education system will, by definition, be one in which the advantages of class and family background loom large.
Second, the U.S. education system is largely funded through state and local property taxes, which means that the quality of a kid's education depends on the wealth of the community in which he or she grows up. This, too, helps replicate parents' economic status in their kids.
Finally, Sawhill notes, in the United States, unlike other advanced economies, "access both to a quality preschool experience and to higher education continues to depend quite directly on family resources."
The decline in organized labor and solid, good-paying manufacturing jobs is another factor. Those jobs once represented a ladder; their role in moving past generations into the middle class is an American archetype: The paper boy's son finishes high school and gets an apprenticeship that leads to a solid job in a union shop that allows him to send his son or daughter to college, where they become a doctor or a lawyer. That particular ladder is disappearing.
There's also an inverse relationship between how robust a country's social safety net is and the degree to which working families face the prospect of downward mobility. For example, research comparing countries that have generous unemployment benefits with those -- like the United States -- which offer stingier programs show a clear trend: Offering displaced workers better benefits (a) extends the period of unemployment (which tends to be the focus of most conservatives) and (b) means that when working people do re-enter the work force, they do so at a higher average wage. A similar dynamic has been demonstrated in terms of healthcare: People with access to paid sick leave and other health benefits switch jobs less frequently than those who don't and have longer average tenure and higher earnings.
In all of these areas, the United States has undergone what Jacob Hacker calls the "great risk shift." Hacker describes how the American "framework of security has unraveled, leaving Americans newly exposed to the harshest risks of our turbulent economy: losing a good job, losing healthcare, losing retirement savings, losing a home -- in short, losing a stable, financial footing." All of these things offer unique opportunities to fall out of the middle class -- opportunities for downward mobility that simply don't exist for the Canadian or French worker, who can rely on a progressive state to help preserve his or her income level when those kinds of disasters arise.
Ultimately, the take-away from the decline in American upward mobility is one that progressives have been saying for years: The existence of a middle class is not a natural phenomenon. It was built through real progressive policies like the GI education bill, which gave tens of millions of Americans (including my grandfather) access to free college tuition and low-cost loans to start businesses or buy homes. It was created by providing quality public education, mandating minimum wages and guaranteeing working people the right to organize.
After spending three decades unraveling those kinds of protections -- all have been subjected to death "by a thousand small cuts" over the past 30 years -- we're no longer a mobile society. No longer is it the case that the accident of one's birth doesn't dictate one's life chances in America, and that's a wholly predictable result of the rise of the conservative backlash.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Dec 11, 2007 2:09 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The perception that intelligence and skill are rewarded continues to baffle me. It's as though so many folks don't see what's in front of their face and what they experience every day.
Or perhaps they don't want to see it. They want so badly to believe in the American dream that no amount of reality will convince them otherwise. Our system seems to thrive on collective delusion and denial.
Those most likely to get ahead in our system are manipulators: those who manipulate people, resources, situations, etc. in order to gain power and resources. And as pointed out in a previous article, it takes a sociopathic personality. If you were born or raised with any scruples, conscience, modesty, etc., you will have a difficult time thriving in our economy unless--as the article points out--you were born in the right place at the right time.
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» Psychopaths rule
Posted by: socialpsych
» Agree, in part...
Posted by: igoeja
» RE: Agree, in part...
Posted by: ray burchard
» RE: Agree, in part...
Posted by: ray burchard
» Definitions of Egalitarian
Posted by: igoeja
» RE: Agree, in part...
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» RE: Agree, in part...
Posted by: Wacre
» RE: Agree, in part...
Posted by: K.D.
» RE:>"Our system seems ---"
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: >"Our system seems ---"
Posted by: Wacre
» RE: >"Our system seems ---"
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» Re: The corporate managers can't control the corporations
Posted by: aka_bozo
» RE: >"Our system seems ---"
Posted by: Wacre
» Psychopaths and denial
Posted by: zooeyhall
» Psychopatic Personalities and Wealth
Posted by: Lily H.
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Posted by: igoeja on Dec 11, 2007 3:35 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Income inequality negatively correlates, to varying degrees, with educational attainment, intelligence, longevity, infant mortality, imprisonment, and crime. And those are just a few. As for the economic outcomes, it positively correlates with increased volatility, and in the third world, more equal societies grow faster and with less volatility than plutocratic ones, so the specific forces of booms and busts are part of a larger problem.
The problem with America's new gilded age is more than just a matter of money.
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Posted by: itsthemedication on Dec 11, 2007 3:52 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Social Democracy is the proven solution - a mix of social programs and capitalism with checks and balances. Wonderful article. We need to pound this message home, but you won't see it in my local paper any time soon.
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» Unions
Posted by: kepstein7777
» RE: Unions
Posted by: JSquercia
» Amen to this and the unions need to
Posted by: thekidde
» RE: Horatio Alger Propaganda
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: Suzon on Dec 11, 2007 4:40 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Poor people tend to have poor friends and poor relatives. And if there is a relatively well-off person in the family or group, that person may refuse but often wishes to or feels they must subsidise the others. It's micro-socialism, a small group pooling resourses.
The very rich are unlikely to have poor friends or relatives and are probably more unlikely to feel that they should help out. If they feel that they deserve to be where they are, they will also believe that you deserve to be where you are.
English public schools are called that because they were charities set up to educate the children of the non-wealthy. When the rich saw what looked like a good thing, guess what happened? They grabbed it for themselves.
Sort of like creating your own tax breaks, isn't it?
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» Children are effect of poverty
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: Lincoln fan on Dec 11, 2007 4:59 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is hogwash. In a democracy, the government has no responsibility. It has one function, to do the will of the majority. Does the term "public servant" ring a bell?
The most basic principle of management is this. "Authority can be delegated down the hierarchy but responsibility can't". Responsibility remains at the top. We can't blame the Neocons,they are not the majority. The majority is responsible, we allowed them to usurp the authority.
Bob Reichenbach,
Director, The Lincoln Initiative
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» More perfect union, domestic tranquility, justice, GENERAL WELFARE, blessings of liberty
Posted by: Beck
» RE: More perfect union, domestic tranquility, justice, GENERAL WELFARE, blessings of liberty
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» Thank you for
Posted by: thekidde
» The U.S. was never a democracy.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: The U.S. was never a democracy.
Posted by: JSquercia
» Your response.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» sorry. bad html. bad fingers.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: The U.S. was never a democracy.
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» So eating the rich
Posted by: thekidde
» RE: So eating the rich
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Blame the Neocons?
Posted by: Richard House
» RE: Richard House
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Bob Reichenbach
Posted by: Richard House
» RE: Blame the Neocons?
Posted by: masterjc
» RE: Blame the Neocons?
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Blame the Neocons?
Posted by: Joe
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Posted by: peacelf on Dec 11, 2007 5:36 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, the U.S. schools are notorious for perpetuating class by what is called the "hidden curriculum of work." Kids in poorer schools generally speaking are given boring repetitive worksheets, instead of complicated assignments and projects that require critical thinkng.
Poorer kids are more likely to be disciplined and their cultural and social needs and knowledge ignored.
These factors contribute to unpreparedness for college or any life outside of manuel labor.
peace
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» RE: Myth II: US Education does poorly
Posted by: funnyfarm12
» RE: Myth II: US Education does poorly
Posted by: Afban
» Nevertheless, the point is valid.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Nevertheless, the point is valid.
Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: Nevertheless, the point is valid. Yes, Iowa is up with top nations; Mississippi is . . .
Posted by: Beck
» All valid points. Reading through the parent and descendant threads...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Myth II: US Education does poorly
Posted by: Richard House
» But the studies and statistics for most other countries only include college-bound students
Posted by: Beck
» I was unaware of that fact.....
Posted by: mjabele
» By any measure out there
Posted by: thekidde
» RE: By any measure out there
Posted by: susanh
» RE: Myth II: US Education does poorly
Posted by: halg
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Posted by: fdgsr on Dec 11, 2007 6:06 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Which came first opportunity, or achievement? All barriers are the natural resistance to change. Inertial in effect, but powerful in action. Freedom is not to be what you decide, but to decide what you will try to be. In a perfect barrier, as many molecules move in as move out. When the flow is in the direction of best results, barriers come down and chaos ensues while the inept compete with the ept.
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» Before playing with words...
Posted by: KeepsonTickn
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Posted by: benzene on Dec 11, 2007 6:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» The paradise of Finland? alcoholism, suicide...
Posted by: dover23
» RE: The paradise of Finland? alcoholism, suicide...
Posted by: Chloe2005
» RE: The paradise of Finland? alcoholism, suicide...
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» RE: The paradise of Finland? alcoholism, suicide...
Posted by: MAD
» RE: The paradise of Finland? alcoholism, suicide...
Posted by: halg
» RE: Finland
Posted by: anu
» RE: Finland
Posted by: TomAh
» RE: Finland
Posted by: stb79
» RE: Military
Posted by: benzene
» Finland Soldiers Are Only for Defensive Purposes, Unlike the USA
Posted by: sofla100
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Dec 11, 2007 6:29 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THIS, Alternet, is the kind of articles you should be posting! Not promoting silly drek like vegetarinaism.
Just a slight criticism/suggestion: I would leave out the highlighted word links in the article. For me, anyway, they are distracting. They would be much better placed as footnotes and references at the end of the article.
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» Underlining?
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Still a great article
Posted by: zooeyhall
» Vegetarinasim is NOT silly-and Holland should not have ignored this.
Posted by: WitchyNy
» Forgot the explanation ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
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Posted by: Afban on Dec 11, 2007 6:50 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: mnlefty on Dec 11, 2007 7:09 AM
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» RE: and you wonder why no one is idealistic anymore?
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: and you wonder why no one is idealistic anymore?
Posted by: phatkhat
» I still have outstanding student loan debt, and it's truly outstanding
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» RE: I still have outstanding student loan debt, and it's truly outstanding
Posted by: makeadifference
» RE: and you wonder why no one is idealistic anymore?
Posted by: yesman
» RE: and you wonder why no one is idealistic anymore?
Posted by: phatkhat
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Posted by: devonl on Dec 11, 2007 7:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you look broadly at the movement of government and religion over time, it becomes clear that each change is in alignment with an effort to produce the long term effect of total control with the least amount of resistance. The American concept was a stepping stone along the path. It is now in the process of being dismantled as it has served it purpose beautifully. The Bush administration is working toward this end and has been very successful. Their task is to bankrupt our nation morally and financially so that it can be merged with Canada and Mexico, the American Union.
The time to wake up and change this destiny is running out.
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» RE: The Republic that never happened
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» Grassroots Activism for Emancipation
Posted by: A. Servant
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Posted by: nfamous on Dec 11, 2007 8:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There has never been that much upward mobility for blacks so we knew it was a lie from the beginning. The whole notion of the American dream was erected for whites with nonwhites taking the leftovers or whatever they could get. Now that the elite have decided to outsource and hire cheap laborers, many whites cannot believe that their skin privilege has been nullified at some level. It's quite a wake up call for white America and one that is intensifying as they continue to blame nonwhites for the problems created by rich, self-serving whites at the very top.
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» RE: Don't blame the non-whites!!!!!!!
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Don't blame the non-whites!!!!!!!
Posted by: ALANHESTER
» RE: Don't blame the non-whites!!!!!!!
Posted by: dover23
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Posted by: particle61 on Dec 11, 2007 8:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
redstateupdate.net reports on both the decline of the US dollar and the denuding of US demcracy-
see stories...
Young US Males Inhabit Stag Nation-
Debt Diversion Devours Devalued Dollars-
Contracting Contracts, Growth Shrinks-
Numbers Reveal Repeal of New Deal-
Rising Number Sinking Deeper Into Poverty-
and a new gwbush comic every week!
www.redstateupdate.net
funny, frightening, free
and 'it's all true'
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» Jackie & Dunlap: America's true Red State Updaters
Posted by: eddie torres
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Posted by: Luther Blissett on Dec 11, 2007 8:36 AM
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» RE: Great article.
Posted by: ALANHESTER
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Posted by: fearn on Dec 11, 2007 8:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: It's the pie guys, it's the pie!
Posted by: K.D.
» RE: It's the pie guys, it's the pie!
Posted by: Luther Blissett
» RE: It's the pie guys, it's the pie!
Posted by: richholland
» RE: It's the pie guys, it's the pie!
Posted by: nigelbest
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Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com on Dec 11, 2007 9:39 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In today's U.S.A., middle class jobs and the outdated school system we have makes this an elusive goal for us. The target keeps moving. And having both parents work leads to a two-income trap. The more we work, the less time we have for much of anything else. It's a sinister game of life not designed by Milton Bradley. Our chances of having good fortune lie in a state lottery.
There are those who say, "quit your complaining and get a job" or say "I made it; why can't you" is not a valid argument because acquiring wealth and fortune depend on a myriad of factors beyond our control. It's usually inherited or accumulated through hard work or a stroke of luck. But even newfound riches doesn't guarantee the dream. You'll just keep buying things for your new Mcmansion. If it's what a person desires, then so be it.
If "The Jeffersons" were around today, would they still be able to "move on up" (perhaps into a gated community) and to climb that ladder? They'll discover that the ladder has no rungs.
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Posted by: Sojourner on Dec 11, 2007 9:59 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do you remember how the Shrub, back in the 2004 debates, lept upon Kerry when K's choice of words suggested the US ought to pay attention to what the rest of the world expected of us? So we re-elected the Shrub. Don' need no stinkink advice.
Reading this along with Charlie Cray's article on oil over at HuffPo business tells the tale: Casey Jones is still at the throttle and will run us off the bridge. We refuse even small changes at a time when we need radical change.
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» RE: Life is a gamble or it's socialism?
Posted by: nigelbest
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Posted by: drricklippin on Dec 11, 2007 10:08 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I believe it's all cyclical. The Reagan/Gingrich(not stopped by Bill Clinton) conservative "revolution" has run its course.
Many citizens have been hurt by its excesses and insisting on the truly bizarre notion that the "free market" answers all human needs.
Without going to Finland etc., I see a rebound away from these excesses. My only fear is that we will not have enough elasticity to bounce back up as a nation?
I know progressives are justifiably disappointed with the 110th congress controlled by DEMS who did not yet deliver.
But I say give them a chance AFTER they take over the White House. The new DEM president will take some pages from FDR's and LBJ's domestic policy handbook with a 21st century application.
Dr. Rick Lippin
http://medicalcrises.blogspot.com
Southampton,Pa
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» RE: It's ALL Cyclical
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: It's ALL Cyclical
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: It's ALL Cyclical
Posted by: nigelbest
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Posted by: WitchyNy on Dec 11, 2007 11:35 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Microwaves and big screen TV's and ..well lets just call it the Wal-Mart and Mall stuff.
Small stores with Hemp Clothes and progressive books and local worker owned-non-profit food co-ops are the only kinds of places we should be shopping at. Just as we read Alternet instead of Fox news...we need to shop alternatively.
Everyone should have their own garden and a goat. For the cities at least a community garden/farm/ farmers market on every block.
A basic computer and a DVD player-OK-but we don't need unlimited technology. Too many gadgets- while people don't even own their own homes.
Then there is our 'commuter' system of cars and highways-the pollution and oil wars as well as the cost to maintain all those roads and bridges.
We should not WANT the lifestyle of our parents. It is destroying the world. We need to eat the rich-not try to be more like them-and then get to work building a better system for all.
For example-We need to cancel ALL college loan debt and start Tutition Free college for everyone!
You young people may not know this-but it used to be that way in California-before Ronald Regan. Back in the 70's I got free Tutiton and Pell grants covered my books and living expenses. One of the stories I learned-
Once upon a time.......
a people got tired of sending their money to the government and getting nothing in return. So they had a Revolution.
The name of their leader was Thomas Jefferson.
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» knitting for the baby while the nursery is burning
Posted by: nigelbest
» RE: knitting for the baby while the nursery is burning
Posted by: nigelbest
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Posted by: Sociallibertarian on Dec 11, 2007 1:14 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The middle class has not been getting any poorer in the US it is a myth. However the middle class in EU and especially Sweden has become significantly poorer.
In Sweden self-employed and small business owners have been eradicated by punitive taxes as well as punitive labor laws, and by punitive I mean that they have been aimed at destroying Entrepreneurs and small business as a political and ideological goal of the socialists in power.
Today Sweden is a disaster area and if it does not go the way of Finland and Denmark it will become one of the poorer states of the EU. This has been shown in report after report.
Finland and Denmark are the opposite; they have an extremely low taxation on self-employed, entrepreneurs and small business owners. It is the reason why Denmark and Finland and Denmark are booming. This is because both in Finland and Denmark but not in Sweden has seen severe cuts of the welfare systems, lowering of taxes and the systematic diminishing power of trade unions, in Denmark since for the last 10 years under Anders Fogh Rasmussen and in Finland since the collapse of socialism in Russia.
Finland and Denmark are good examples of what the US should become and it is not what Mr Holland is implying higher taxes and more income distribution and more labor union power, it is in fact the opposite. Lower taxes on self employed, small business and entrepreneurs and extremely low taxation on large corporations.
So I am all for the US taking after Finland and Denmark, lower taxes on those that create wealth and jobs, less trade union power and radical changes of the welfare system.
It is the opposite way that Mr Holland wants to go, the way that is a disaster for all, socialism.
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» RE: If Sweden was a state in the US it would be the poorest state
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: If Sweden was a state in the US it would be the poorest state
Posted by: Sociallibertarian
» Your link doesn't seem to work...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Your link doesn't seem to work...
Posted by: nigelbest
» Timbro
Posted by: moflard
» America Already Doesn't Tax the Rich Nor Give Benefits, Yet It's Failing
Posted by: sofla100
» !7# of the wealth in Sweden is owned by the 1 % wealthiest
Posted by: Sociallibertarian
» Come on, Swedish liberal...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: America Already Doesn't Tax the Rich Nor Give Benefits, Yet It's Failing
Posted by: nigelbest
» RE: If Sweden was a state in the US it would be the poorest state
Posted by: InsertNameHere
» Ken Lay and Jeff Skilling were not "entrepreneurs"
Posted by: eddie torres
» The Wallenbergs has all the wealth in Sweden, 1 % own 35 % as in the US
Posted by: Sociallibertarian
» Query
Posted by: moflard
» Sweden Has Eradicated Poverty, Highest Living Standard in the World
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: Sweden Has Eradicated Poverty, Highest Living Standard in the World
Posted by: Sociallibertarian
» WHO doesn't seem to agree with your life expectancy stats...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Sweden Has Eradicated Poverty, Highest Living Standard in the World
Posted by: nigelbest
» RE: Sweden Has Eradicated Poverty, Highest Living Standard in the World
Posted by: nigelbest
» RE: If Sweden was a state in the US it would be the poorest state
Posted by: phatkhat
» RE: If Sweden was a state in the US it would be the poorest state
Posted by: hms2004
» You made a big error - per capita income versus household income
Posted by: nigelbest
» RE: If Sweden was a state in the US it would be the poorest state
Posted by: TomAh
Comments are closed-
Posted by: InsertNameHere on Dec 11, 2007 1:26 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Countries like Denmark and Canada, with their traditions of social democracy, have better upward mobility?
Evil, stinking, red bastards!
How dare they expose the free market approach as a pyramid scheme! We will punish them for their insolence! I think Canada is about to have another mad cow 'scare'. Denmark? A bunch of fish oil drinking fornicators!
I want them crushed! The illusion of prosperity is the very cornerstone of this society and I will not have some like minded, leftist, commie leeches getting any ideas about social safety nets!
Free health care is the only carrot and stick we dangle in front of the pathetic leeches we call citizens in this country. They never get the carrot do they? We have them so drunk with the American Dream that they don't realize that the string that holds the carrot and the stick that holds the string are the gallows from which they hang, the illusion of free society.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
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Posted by: maxpayne on Dec 11, 2007 2:05 PM
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Posted by: nigelbest on Dec 11, 2007 2:29 PM
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Posted by: eddie torres on Dec 11, 2007 2:30 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What the average American needs instead is a modernized space-age metaphor that will turbo-power the reckless sociopathic ruthlessness required to succeed as a CEO billionaire in today's klepto-fascist yachtocratic wonder world.
In short, Americans need to unleash their inner Evel Knievel: if you can't strap on the financial equivalent of an RB545 LACE rocket capable of propelling you to the other side of Snake River Canyon, then you deserve to crash into the river.
See Jackie & Dunlap's "Evel Knievel RIP" for a closer look at the man who stands right alongside Lee Iacocca and Ross Perot in the American economic pantheon.
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» Funniest comment here
Posted by: Bobsays
» Funniest comment here
Posted by: Bobsays
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Posted by: sofla100 on Dec 11, 2007 2:31 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The Sun Never Sets On the American Miltary: Trillions Squandered instead of Health Care, Education
Posted by: richholland
» RE: The Sun Never Sets On National Debt
Posted by: Sushi
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Posted by: nigelbest on Dec 11, 2007 2:37 PM
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Posted by: nigelbest on Dec 11, 2007 2:40 PM
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Posted by: nigelbest on Dec 11, 2007 3:13 PM
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» Property
Posted by: gellero
» RE: Property
Posted by: richholland
» RE: Property
Posted by: nigelbest
» RE: Property
Posted by: nigelbest
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Posted by: eosrk on Dec 11, 2007 6:28 PM
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» RE: How about; "Moving on Down!"
Posted by: Sushi
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Posted by: Bobsays on Dec 11, 2007 6:31 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's why we are seeing social democratic measures in the UK, Canada and France going off the rails - people can no longer relate to the 'other' and they don't want to pay taxes to support them (especially as these days more and more they are muslim).
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» RE: Finland and Scandinavia prosperous because they are on the same hymn sheet
Posted by: naturelover
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Posted by: CommonDreamer on Dec 11, 2007 7:49 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But the worst part is that the wimpy right wing "no new taxes" mantra still puts fear in the heart of the Dems; thus they can't yet do good by funneling taxes to real causes that make sense instead of cutting the taxes of the wealthy. They are still held in thrall by this inane nonsensical diatribe and fear to take action right now. But hopefully this will change once we install a government with some sense and adult supervision (as Mr. Obama put it so well).
Steny Hoyer apologized for the AMT fix not being Pay-Go...and took blame for the Dems. It's not the Dems fault at all. It is the fault of the anti tax brigade who would rather be immature and selfish than have a balanced budget and more balanced economy that is more fair for all.
Where are the moral values in that? If we ran our household budgets like the right wingers run government, you know what would happen to us as citizens - certain bankruptcy. We must wait for 2009 to bring change (we hope) and a sane, progressive tax code with a balanced budget.
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Posted by: relax on Dec 11, 2007 11:22 PM
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One, is that in my own anecdotal experience, the skill set and work habits of the kids coming up are different than what I embraced as a kid. I chalk this up to conditioning. The older I get, the more I realize how easily people are conditioned. Their wants, desires, dreams, etc. are programmed by the system. Deconstruct any commercial and you'll uncover billions of dollars invested in focus groups, psychometric studies, production techniques, etc. They delve below the threshold of consciousness of most people. Want a big car? No problem (and no money down). Big house? Hey, we have good financing terms! Wanna get laid? This cosmetic will do the trick.
If you read business history, the rise of the middle class in the 50's was not so much a "rise" as it was a lowering of the bar to that which is considered "middle class." Levitttown on Long island is a good example. It gave people a new definition of middle class; i.e. a stand-alone house; a bit of land; a garage for the car. If you were living in a Brooklyn tenement before that, hey, you feel like you made it.
A study I read once sticks in my head. They asked Harvard business students the following question: Would you rather make $90k/yr. knowing everyone made less, OR, $100k/yr. knowing everyone made more. Overwhelmingly the subjects chose the former. This tells you there is more at work here than income. I try to manage my financial life by what my lower-middle-class-immigrant parents taught me - if you can't afford it, don't buy it. But then again I'm a single guy so I don't have the stressors of the kid's tuition or the wife wanting a new kitchen.
If government is going to make all this right and impose some legislation to level the playing field, then we need some better people working in government. Look at the current crop of elected and appointed officials. Its a freakin' joke! People of competence and good will have been avoiding government like The Plague the last couple of decades. Why? The pay sucks. If your elected, you spend all your time kissing ass and begging for money. Bill Clinton said it best. He thinks the reason there is so much acrimony in Washington these days is simple - sleep depravation. Everyone flies home for the weekend. Everybody is begging for money to finance the next election cycle. Everybody is stressed out and cranky. Nothing gets done. Or at least done right.
The shite will have to hit the fan for things to re-callibrate. The 40-year cycle of The Robber Barons from 1880-1920 gave way to the social engineering of the '30's and '40's. Its all cyclical. Let's hope it doesn't get too nasty.
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» RE: relax
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: relax
Posted by: relax
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Posted by: PakiBoy on Dec 12, 2007 6:11 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Jbuuty on Dec 12, 2007 8:47 AM
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My family history is one of falling out of the middle-class. My father had physical problems that moved us as a family out of the working middle-class (as well as Reaganomics). Of the four children, I've managed somehow to move back up a bit, though more educationally than economically - thanks to the fact that I could take advantage of generous student support during the Carter years before Reagan took university education away from the poor.
Some have been discussing who is responsible. While many are responsible for what is happening as far as inequality and lack of mobility, once a system has been put into place it is not always a question of personal responsibility. It is a system problem. Changing the system becomes important. The corporate system itself needs changing.
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Posted by: ShoShenQ on Dec 12, 2007 9:39 AM
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Posted by: nigelbest on Dec 12, 2007 3:57 PM
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Posted by: nigelbest on Dec 12, 2007 4:05 PM
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Posted by: maell on Dec 13, 2007 6:17 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This problem is not due to any system or lack thereof. The problem is the personal responsibility of each American that over-consumes, overextends, and misunderstands the accountability that results from any amount of freedom.
So long as we continue to blame anyone but ourselves and refuse to make wise personal choices, we will be free under no system.
Democratic Socialism, a relatively new concept, is only the flavor of the day of another "system" that we all hope will save us from ourselves.
America - wake up, suck it up, be personally accountable, and take your freedom - don't ask for it. Nothing truly valuable is or should be given - only earned.
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Posted by: jvaljon1 on Dec 14, 2007 8:23 AM
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Besides, I wasn't born in the 'North American Union'--I was born in that currently-being-dismantled (once)-bastion of liberty which used to be The United States Of America. No...I'll be going to one of the Scandinavian countries to live, because that's where our freedoms and ideals now reside. Or maybe South America--I already speak decent Spanish, thanks largely to my new neighbors from Mexico. My family will be going with me. Why this despair? Well...
Big Oil just showed its muscle with the 'Energy Bill'--a high-profit giveaway to Exxon-Mobil, complete with watered-down CAFE 'standards', and taxes on it voted down by Democrats! Now everything's in place for the North American Union. One would wonder why passports are now required to go to Canada and Mexico (only for American citizens, LOL!) if it's all going to be this great Union--but the answer's all too clear. Our Pledge of Allegiance has been sold to the highest bidder--Big Oil. Wonder what's gonna replace it? How about:
I pledge allegiance...to the Oil Cartel of the North American Union...and to the profits for which they stand...one Corporation...profit for which is indivisible...with early death, Patriot-Act limits on our freedoms, and the end of happiness for us all.
What an E-E-W-W-W-W-W!!!...moment...
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Posted by: james2021 on Dec 15, 2007 2:27 PM
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It all come down to selfish greed, for either money, or power, or fame. Dumbya is the epitome of that generation. Out to screw everybody else first.
Sad that we got ourselves into this mess thru the ballot box, hope that we will be able to recover before it is too late.
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Posted by: macdon1 on Dec 15, 2007 3:14 PM
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Posted by: BeyondBeliefs on Dec 18, 2007 4:59 AM
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The Plantation Owners Press ( Our ONCE FREE PRESS ) will make you believe that YOU chose your next ruler.
Business as usual.
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Dec 11, 2007 2:09 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The perception that intelligence and skill are rewarded continues to baffle me. It's as though so many folks don't see what's in front of their face and what they experience every day.
Or perhaps they don't want to see it. They want so badly to believe in the American dream that no amount of reality will convince them otherwise. Our system seems to thrive on collective delusion and denial.
Those most likely to get ahead in our system are manipulators: those who manipulate people, resources, situations, etc. in order to gain power and resources. And as pointed out in a previous article, it takes a sociopathic personality. If you were born or raised with any scruples, conscience, modesty, etc., you will have a difficult time thriving in our economy unless--as the article points out--you were born in the right place at the right time.
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» Psychopaths rule
Posted by: socialpsych
» Agree, in part...
Posted by: igoeja
» RE: Agree, in part...
Posted by: ray burchard
» RE: Agree, in part...
Posted by: ray burchard
» Definitions of Egalitarian
Posted by: igoeja
» RE: Agree, in part...
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» RE: Agree, in part...
Posted by: Wacre
» RE: Agree, in part...
Posted by: K.D.
» RE:>"Our system seems ---"
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: >"Our system seems ---"
Posted by: Wacre
» RE: >"Our system seems ---"
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» Re: The corporate managers can't control the corporations
Posted by: aka_bozo
» RE: >"Our system seems ---"
Posted by: Wacre
» Psychopaths and denial
Posted by: zooeyhall
» Psychopatic Personalities and Wealth
Posted by: Lily H.
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Posted by: igoeja on Dec 11, 2007 3:35 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Income inequality negatively correlates, to varying degrees, with educational attainment, intelligence, longevity, infant mortality, imprisonment, and crime. And those are just a few. As for the economic outcomes, it positively correlates with increased volatility, and in the third world, more equal societies grow faster and with less volatility than plutocratic ones, so the specific forces of booms and busts are part of a larger problem.
The problem with America's new gilded age is more than just a matter of money.
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Posted by: itsthemedication on Dec 11, 2007 3:52 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Social Democracy is the proven solution - a mix of social programs and capitalism with checks and balances. Wonderful article. We need to pound this message home, but you won't see it in my local paper any time soon.
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» Unions
Posted by: kepstein7777
» RE: Unions
Posted by: JSquercia
» Amen to this and the unions need to
Posted by: thekidde
» RE: Horatio Alger Propaganda
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: Suzon on Dec 11, 2007 4:40 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Poor people tend to have poor friends and poor relatives. And if there is a relatively well-off person in the family or group, that person may refuse but often wishes to or feels they must subsidise the others. It's micro-socialism, a small group pooling resourses.
The very rich are unlikely to have poor friends or relatives and are probably more unlikely to feel that they should help out. If they feel that they deserve to be where they are, they will also believe that you deserve to be where you are.
English public schools are called that because they were charities set up to educate the children of the non-wealthy. When the rich saw what looked like a good thing, guess what happened? They grabbed it for themselves.
Sort of like creating your own tax breaks, isn't it?
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» Children are effect of poverty
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: Lincoln fan on Dec 11, 2007 4:59 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is hogwash. In a democracy, the government has no responsibility. It has one function, to do the will of the majority. Does the term "public servant" ring a bell?
The most basic principle of management is this. "Authority can be delegated down the hierarchy but responsibility can't". Responsibility remains at the top. We can't blame the Neocons,they are not the majority. The majority is responsible, we allowed them to usurp the authority.
Bob Reichenbach,
Director, The Lincoln Initiative
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» More perfect union, domestic tranquility, justice, GENERAL WELFARE, blessings of liberty
Posted by: Beck
» RE: More perfect union, domestic tranquility, justice, GENERAL WELFARE, blessings of liberty
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» Thank you for
Posted by: thekidde
» The U.S. was never a democracy.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: The U.S. was never a democracy.
Posted by: JSquercia
» Your response.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» sorry. bad html. bad fingers.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: The U.S. was never a democracy.
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» So eating the rich
Posted by: thekidde
» RE: So eating the rich
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Blame the Neocons?
Posted by: Richard House
» RE: Richard House
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Bob Reichenbach
Posted by: Richard House
» RE: Blame the Neocons?
Posted by: masterjc
» RE: Blame the Neocons?
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Blame the Neocons?
Posted by: Joe
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Posted by: peacelf on Dec 11, 2007 5:36 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, the U.S. schools are notorious for perpetuating class by what is called the "hidden curriculum of work." Kids in poorer schools generally speaking are given boring repetitive worksheets, instead of complicated assignments and projects that require critical thinkng.
Poorer kids are more likely to be disciplined and their cultural and social needs and knowledge ignored.
These factors contribute to unpreparedness for college or any life outside of manuel labor.
peace
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» RE: Myth II: US Education does poorly
Posted by: funnyfarm12
» RE: Myth II: US Education does poorly
Posted by: Afban
» Nevertheless, the point is valid.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Nevertheless, the point is valid.
Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: Nevertheless, the point is valid. Yes, Iowa is up with top nations; Mississippi is . . .
Posted by: Beck
» All valid points. Reading through the parent and descendant threads...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Myth II: US Education does poorly
Posted by: Richard House
» But the studies and statistics for most other countries only include college-bound students
Posted by: Beck
» I was unaware of that fact.....
Posted by: mjabele
» By any measure out there
Posted by: thekidde
» RE: By any measure out there
Posted by: susanh
» RE: Myth II: US Education does poorly
Posted by: halg
Comments are closed-
Posted by: fdgsr on Dec 11, 2007 6:06 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Which came first opportunity, or achievement? All barriers are the natural resistance to change. Inertial in effect, but powerful in action. Freedom is not to be what you decide, but to decide what you will try to be. In a perfect barrier, as many molecules move in as move out. When the flow is in the direction of best results, barriers come down and chaos ensues while the inept compete with the ept.
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» Before playing with words...
Posted by: KeepsonTickn
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Posted by: benzene on Dec 11, 2007 6:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» The paradise of Finland? alcoholism, suicide...
Posted by: dover23
» RE: The paradise of Finland? alcoholism, suicide...
Posted by: Chloe2005
» RE: The paradise of Finland? alcoholism, suicide...
Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: The paradise of Finland? alcoholism, suicide...
Posted by: MAD
» RE: The paradise of Finland? alcoholism, suicide...
Posted by: halg
» RE: Finland
Posted by: anu
» RE: Finland
Posted by: TomAh
» RE: Finland
Posted by: stb79
» RE: Military
Posted by: benzene
» Finland Soldiers Are Only for Defensive Purposes, Unlike the USA
Posted by: sofla100
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Dec 11, 2007 6:29 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THIS, Alternet, is the kind of articles you should be posting! Not promoting silly drek like vegetarinaism.
Just a slight criticism/suggestion: I would leave out the highlighted word links in the article. For me, anyway, they are distracting. They would be much better placed as footnotes and references at the end of the article.
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» Underlining?
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Still a great article
Posted by: zooeyhall
» Vegetarinasim is NOT silly-and Holland should not have ignored this.
Posted by: WitchyNy
» Forgot the explanation ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
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Posted by: Afban on Dec 11, 2007 6:50 AM
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Posted by: mnlefty on Dec 11, 2007 7:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: and you wonder why no one is idealistic anymore?
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: and you wonder why no one is idealistic anymore?
Posted by: phatkhat
» I still have outstanding student loan debt, and it's truly outstanding
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» RE: I still have outstanding student loan debt, and it's truly outstanding
Posted by: makeadifference
» RE: and you wonder why no one is idealistic anymore?
Posted by: yesman
» RE: and you wonder why no one is idealistic anymore?
Posted by: phatkhat
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Posted by: devonl on Dec 11, 2007 7:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you look broadly at the movement of government and religion over time, it becomes clear that each change is in alignment with an effort to produce the long term effect of total control with the least amount of resistance. The American concept was a stepping stone along the path. It is now in the process of being dismantled as it has served it purpose beautifully. The Bush administration is working toward this end and has been very successful. Their task is to bankrupt our nation morally and financially so that it can be merged with Canada and Mexico, the American Union.
The time to wake up and change this destiny is running out.
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» RE: The Republic that never happened
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» Grassroots Activism for Emancipation
Posted by: A. Servant
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Posted by: nfamous on Dec 11, 2007 8:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There has never been that much upward mobility for blacks so we knew it was a lie from the beginning. The whole notion of the American dream was erected for whites with nonwhites taking the leftovers or whatever they could get. Now that the elite have decided to outsource and hire cheap laborers, many whites cannot believe that their skin privilege has been nullified at some level. It's quite a wake up call for white America and one that is intensifying as they continue to blame nonwhites for the problems created by rich, self-serving whites at the very top.
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» RE: Don't blame the non-whites!!!!!!!
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Don't blame the non-whites!!!!!!!
Posted by: ALANHESTER
» RE: Don't blame the non-whites!!!!!!!
Posted by: dover23
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Posted by: particle61 on Dec 11, 2007 8:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
redstateupdate.net reports on both the decline of the US dollar and the denuding of US demcracy-
see stories...
Young US Males Inhabit Stag Nation-
Debt Diversion Devours Devalued Dollars-
Contracting Contracts, Growth Shrinks-
Numbers Reveal Repeal of New Deal-
Rising Number Sinking Deeper Into Poverty-
and a new gwbush comic every week!
www.redstateupdate.net
funny, frightening, free
and 'it's all true'
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» Jackie & Dunlap: America's true Red State Updaters
Posted by: eddie torres
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Posted by: Luther Blissett on Dec 11, 2007 8:36 AM
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» RE: Great article.
Posted by: ALANHESTER
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Posted by: fearn on Dec 11, 2007 8:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: It's the pie guys, it's the pie!
Posted by: K.D.
» RE: It's the pie guys, it's the pie!
Posted by: Luther Blissett
» RE: It's the pie guys, it's the pie!
Posted by: richholland
» RE: It's the pie guys, it's the pie!
Posted by: nigelbest
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Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com on Dec 11, 2007 9:39 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In today's U.S.A., middle class jobs and the outdated school system we have makes this an elusive goal for us. The target keeps moving. And having both parents work leads to a two-income trap. The more we work, the less time we have for much of anything else. It's a sinister game of life not designed by Milton Bradley. Our chances of having good fortune lie in a state lottery.
There are those who say, "quit your complaining and get a job" or say "I made it; why can't you" is not a valid argument because acquiring wealth and fortune depend on a myriad of factors beyond our control. It's usually inherited or accumulated through hard work or a stroke of luck. But even newfound riches doesn't guarantee the dream. You'll just keep buying things for your new Mcmansion. If it's what a person desires, then so be it.
If "The Jeffersons" were around today, would they still be able to "move on up" (perhaps into a gated community) and to climb that ladder? They'll discover that the ladder has no rungs.
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Posted by: Sojourner on Dec 11, 2007 9:59 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do you remember how the Shrub, back in the 2004 debates, lept upon Kerry when K's choice of words suggested the US ought to pay attention to what the rest of the world expected of us? So we re-elected the Shrub. Don' need no stinkink advice.
Reading this along with Charlie Cray's article on oil over at HuffPo business tells the tale: Casey Jones is still at the throttle and will run us off the bridge. We refuse even small changes at a time when we need radical change.
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» RE: Life is a gamble or it's socialism?
Posted by: nigelbest
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Posted by: drricklippin on Dec 11, 2007 10:08 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I believe it's all cyclical. The Reagan/Gingrich(not stopped by Bill Clinton) conservative "revolution" has run its course.
Many citizens have been hurt by its excesses and insisting on the truly bizarre notion that the "free market" answers all human needs.
Without going to Finland etc., I see a rebound away from these excesses. My only fear is that we will not have enough elasticity to bounce back up as a nation?
I know progressives are justifiably disappointed with the 110th congress controlled by DEMS who did not yet deliver.
But I say give them a chance AFTER they take over the White House. The new DEM president will take some pages from FDR's and LBJ's domestic policy handbook with a 21st century application.
Dr. Rick Lippin
http://medicalcrises.blogspot.com
Southampton,Pa
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» RE: It's ALL Cyclical
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: It's ALL Cyclical
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: It's ALL Cyclical
Posted by: nigelbest
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Posted by: WitchyNy on Dec 11, 2007 11:35 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Microwaves and big screen TV's and ..well lets just call it the Wal-Mart and Mall stuff.
Small stores with Hemp Clothes and progressive books and local worker owned-non-profit food co-ops are the only kinds of places we should be shopping at. Just as we read Alternet instead of Fox news...we need to shop alternatively.
Everyone should have their own garden and a goat. For the cities at least a community garden/farm/ farmers market on every block.
A basic computer and a DVD player-OK-but we don't need unlimited technology. Too many gadgets- while people don't even own their own homes.
Then there is our 'commuter' system of cars and highways-the pollution and oil wars as well as the cost to maintain all those roads and bridges.
We should not WANT the lifestyle of our parents. It is destroying the world. We need to eat the rich-not try to be more like them-and then get to work building a better system for all.
For example-We need to cancel ALL college loan debt and start Tutition Free college for everyone!
You young people may not know this-but it used to be that way in California-before Ronald Regan. Back in the 70's I got free Tutiton and Pell grants covered my books and living expenses. One of the stories I learned-
Once upon a time.......
a people got tired of sending their money to the government and getting nothing in return. So they had a Revolution.
The name of their leader was Thomas Jefferson.
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» knitting for the baby while the nursery is burning
Posted by: nigelbest
» RE: knitting for the baby while the nursery is burning
Posted by: nigelbest
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Posted by: Sociallibertarian on Dec 11, 2007 1:14 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The middle class has not been getting any poorer in the US it is a myth. However the middle class in EU and especially Sweden has become significantly poorer.
In Sweden self-employed and small business owners have been eradicated by punitive taxes as well as punitive labor laws, and by punitive I mean that they have been aimed at destroying Entrepreneurs and small business as a political and ideological goal of the socialists in power.
Today Sweden is a disaster area and if it does not go the way of Finland and Denmark it will become one of the poorer states of the EU. This has been shown in report after report.
Finland and Denmark are the opposite; they have an extremely low taxation on self-employed, entrepreneurs and small business owners. It is the reason why Denmark and Finland and Denmark are booming. This is because both in Finland and Denmark but not in Sweden has seen severe cuts of the welfare systems, lowering of taxes and the systematic diminishing power of trade unions, in Denmark since for the last 10 years under Anders Fogh Rasmussen and in Finland since the collapse of socialism in Russia.
Finland and Denmark are good examples of what the US should become and it is not what Mr Holland is implying higher taxes and more income distribution and more labor union power, it is in fact the opposite. Lower taxes on self employed, small business and entrepreneurs and extremely low taxation on large corporations.
So I am all for the US taking after Finland and Denmark, lower taxes on those that create wealth and jobs, less trade union power and radical changes of the welfare system.
It is the opposite way that Mr Holland wants to go, the way that is a disaster for all, socialism.
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» RE: If Sweden was a state in the US it would be the poorest state
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: If Sweden was a state in the US it would be the poorest state
Posted by: Sociallibertarian
» Your link doesn't seem to work...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Your link doesn't seem to work...
Posted by: nigelbest
» Timbro
Posted by: moflard
» America Already Doesn't Tax the Rich Nor Give Benefits, Yet It's Failing
Posted by: sofla100
» !7# of the wealth in Sweden is owned by the 1 % wealthiest
Posted by: Sociallibertarian
» Come on, Swedish liberal...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: America Already Doesn't Tax the Rich Nor Give Benefits, Yet It's Failing
Posted by: nigelbest
» RE: If Sweden was a state in the US it would be the poorest state
Posted by: InsertNameHere
» Ken Lay and Jeff Skilling were not "entrepreneurs"
Posted by: eddie torres
» The Wallenbergs has all the wealth in Sweden, 1 % own 35 % as in the US
Posted by: Sociallibertarian
» Query
Posted by: moflard
» Sweden Has Eradicated Poverty, Highest Living Standard in the World
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: Sweden Has Eradicated Poverty, Highest Living Standard in the World
Posted by: Sociallibertarian
» WHO doesn't seem to agree with your life expectancy stats...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Sweden Has Eradicated Poverty, Highest Living Standard in the World
Posted by: nigelbest
» RE: Sweden Has Eradicated Poverty, Highest Living Standard in the World
Posted by: nigelbest
» RE: If Sweden was a state in the US it would be the poorest state
Posted by: phatkhat
» RE: If Sweden was a state in the US it would be the poorest state
Posted by: hms2004
» You made a big error - per capita income versus household income
Posted by: nigelbest
» RE: If Sweden was a state in the US it would be the poorest state
Posted by: TomAh
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Posted by: InsertNameHere on Dec 11, 2007 1:26 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Countries like Denmark and Canada, with their traditions of social democracy, have better upward mobility?
Evil, stinking, red bastards!
How dare they expose the free market approach as a pyramid scheme! We will punish them for their insolence! I think Canada is about to have another mad cow 'scare'. Denmark? A bunch of fish oil drinking fornicators!
I want them crushed! The illusion of prosperity is the very cornerstone of this society and I will not have some like minded, leftist, commie leeches getting any ideas about social safety nets!
Free health care is the only carrot and stick we dangle in front of the pathetic leeches we call citizens in this country. They never get the carrot do they? We have them so drunk with the American Dream that they don't realize that the string that holds the carrot and the stick that holds the string are the gallows from which they hang, the illusion of free society.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
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Posted by: maxpayne on Dec 11, 2007 2:05 PM
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Posted by: nigelbest on Dec 11, 2007 2:29 PM
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Posted by: eddie torres on Dec 11, 2007 2:30 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What the average American needs instead is a modernized space-age metaphor that will turbo-power the reckless sociopathic ruthlessness required to succeed as a CEO billionaire in today's klepto-fascist yachtocratic wonder world.
In short, Americans need to unleash their inner Evel Knievel: if you can't strap on the financial equivalent of an RB545 LACE rocket capable of propelling you to the other side of Snake River Canyon, then you deserve to crash into the river.
See Jackie & Dunlap's "Evel Knievel RIP" for a closer look at the man who stands right alongside Lee Iacocca and Ross Perot in the American economic pantheon.
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» Funniest comment here
Posted by: Bobsays
» Funniest comment here
Posted by: Bobsays
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Posted by: sofla100 on Dec 11, 2007 2:31 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The Sun Never Sets On the American Miltary: Trillions Squandered instead of Health Care, Education
Posted by: richholland
» RE: The Sun Never Sets On National Debt
Posted by: Sushi
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Posted by: nigelbest on Dec 11, 2007 2:37 PM
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Posted by: nigelbest on Dec 11, 2007 2:40 PM
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Posted by: nigelbest on Dec 11, 2007 3:13 PM
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» Property
Posted by: gellero
» RE: Property
Posted by: richholland
» RE: Property
Posted by: nigelbest
» RE: Property
Posted by: nigelbest
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Posted by: eosrk on Dec 11, 2007 6:28 PM
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» RE: How about; "Moving on Down!"
Posted by: Sushi
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Posted by: Bobsays on Dec 11, 2007 6:31 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's why we are seeing social democratic measures in the UK, Canada and France going off the rails - people can no longer relate to the 'other' and they don't want to pay taxes to support them (especially as these days more and more they are muslim).
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» RE: Finland and Scandinavia prosperous because they are on the same hymn sheet
Posted by: naturelover
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Posted by: CommonDreamer on Dec 11, 2007 7:49 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But the worst part is that the wimpy right wing "no new taxes" mantra still puts fear in the heart of the Dems; thus they can't yet do good by funneling taxes to real causes that make sense instead of cutting the taxes of the wealthy. They are still held in thrall by this inane nonsensical diatribe and fear to take action right now. But hopefully this will change once we install a government with some sense and adult supervision (as Mr. Obama put it so well).
Steny Hoyer apologized for the AMT fix not being Pay-Go...and took blame for the Dems. It's not the Dems fault at all. It is the fault of the anti tax brigade who would rather be immature and selfish than have a balanced budget and more balanced economy that is more fair for all.
Where are the moral values in that? If we ran our household budgets like the right wingers run government, you know what would happen to us as citizens - certain bankruptcy. We must wait for 2009 to bring change (we hope) and a sane, progressive tax code with a balanced budget.
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Posted by: relax on Dec 11, 2007 11:22 PM
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One, is that in my own anecdotal experience, the skill set and work habits of the kids coming up are different than what I embraced as a kid. I chalk this up to conditioning. The older I get, the more I realize how easily people are conditioned. Their wants, desires, dreams, etc. are programmed by the system. Deconstruct any commercial and you'll uncover billions of dollars invested in focus groups, psychometric studies, production techniques, etc. They delve below the threshold of consciousness of most people. Want a big car? No problem (and no money down). Big house? Hey, we have good financing terms! Wanna get laid? This cosmetic will do the trick.
If you read business history, the rise of the middle class in the 50's was not so much a "rise" as it was a lowering of the bar to that which is considered "middle class." Levitttown on Long island is a good example. It gave people a new definition of middle class; i.e. a stand-alone house; a bit of land; a garage for the car. If you were living in a Brooklyn tenement before that, hey, you feel like you made it.
A study I read once sticks in my head. They asked Harvard business students the following question: Would you rather make $90k/yr. knowing everyone made less, OR, $100k/yr. knowing everyone made more. Overwhelmingly the subjects chose the former. This tells you there is more at work here than income. I try to manage my financial life by what my lower-middle-class-immigrant parents taught me - if you can't afford it, don't buy it. But then again I'm a single guy so I don't have the stressors of the kid's tuition or the wife wanting a new kitchen.
If government is going to make all this right and impose some legislation to level the playing field, then we need some better people working in government. Look at the current crop of elected and appointed officials. Its a freakin' joke! People of competence and good will have been avoiding government like The Plague the last couple of decades. Why? The pay sucks. If your elected, you spend all your time kissing ass and begging for money. Bill Clinton said it best. He thinks the reason there is so much acrimony in Washington these days is simple - sleep depravation. Everyone flies home for the weekend. Everybody is begging for money to finance the next election cycle. Everybody is stressed out and cranky. Nothing gets done. Or at least done right.
The shite will have to hit the fan for things to re-callibrate. The 40-year cycle of The Robber Barons from 1880-1920 gave way to the social engineering of the '30's and '40's. Its all cyclical. Let's hope it doesn't get too nasty.
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» RE: relax
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: relax
Posted by: relax
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Posted by: PakiBoy on Dec 12, 2007 6:11 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Jbuuty on Dec 12, 2007 8:47 AM
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My family history is one of falling out of the middle-class. My father had physical problems that moved us as a family out of the working middle-class (as well as Reaganomics). Of the four children, I've managed somehow to move back up a bit, though more educationally than economically - thanks to the fact that I could take advantage of generous student support during the Carter years before Reagan took university education away from the poor.
Some have been discussing who is responsible. While many are responsible for what is happening as far as inequality and lack of mobility, once a system has been put into place it is not always a question of personal responsibility. It is a system problem. Changing the system becomes important. The corporate system itself needs changing.
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Posted by: ShoShenQ on Dec 12, 2007 9:39 AM
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Posted by: nigelbest on Dec 12, 2007 3:57 PM
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Posted by: nigelbest on Dec 12, 2007 4:05 PM
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Posted by: maell on Dec 13, 2007 6:17 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This problem is not due to any system or lack thereof. The problem is the personal responsibility of each American that over-consumes, overextends, and misunderstands the accountability that results from any amount of freedom.
So long as we continue to blame anyone but ourselves and refuse to make wise personal choices, we will be free under no system.
Democratic Socialism, a relatively new concept, is only the flavor of the day of another "system" that we all hope will save us from ourselves.
America - wake up, suck it up, be personally accountable, and take your freedom - don't ask for it. Nothing truly valuable is or should be given - only earned.
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Posted by: jvaljon1 on Dec 14, 2007 8:23 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Besides, I wasn't born in the 'North American Union'--I was born in that currently-being-dismantled (once)-bastion of liberty which used to be The United States Of America. No...I'll be going to one of the Scandinavian countries to live, because that's where our freedoms and ideals now reside. Or maybe South America--I already speak decent Spanish, thanks largely to my new neighbors from Mexico. My family will be going with me. Why this despair? Well...
Big Oil just showed its muscle with the 'Energy Bill'--a high-profit giveaway to Exxon-Mobil, complete with watered-down CAFE 'standards', and taxes on it voted down by Democrats! Now everything's in place for the North American Union. One would wonder why passports are now required to go to Canada and Mexico (only for American citizens, LOL!) if it's all going to be this great Union--but the answer's all too clear. Our Pledge of Allegiance has been sold to the highest bidder--Big Oil. Wonder what's gonna replace it? How about:
I pledge allegiance...to the Oil Cartel of the North American Union...and to the profits for which they stand...one Corporation...profit for which is indivisible...with early death, Patriot-Act limits on our freedoms, and the end of happiness for us all.
What an E-E-W-W-W-W-W!!!...moment...
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Posted by: james2021 on Dec 15, 2007 2:27 PM
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It all come down to selfish greed, for either money, or power, or fame. Dumbya is the epitome of that generation. Out to screw everybody else first.
Sad that we got ourselves into this mess thru the ballot box, hope that we will be able to recover before it is too late.
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Posted by: macdon1 on Dec 15, 2007 3:14 PM
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Posted by: BeyondBeliefs on Dec 18, 2007 4:59 AM
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The Plantation Owners Press ( Our ONCE FREE PRESS ) will make you believe that YOU chose your next ruler.
Business as usual.
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Tax the Corporations and the Rich or Take Draconian Cuts -- the Decision Is Ours
Home Underwater? Walk Away from Geithner's Perverse 'Homeowner Relief' Plan
Fury at Wall St. Banks Fuels Public Action for Move Your Money Campaign




