COMMENTS: 89
Bring on the Recession
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I recognise that recession causes hardship. Like everyone I am aware that it would cause some people to lose their jobs and homes. I do not dismiss these impacts or the harm they inflict, though I would argue that they are the avoidable results of an economy designed to maximise growth rather than welfare. What I would like you to recognise is something much less discussed: that, beyond a certain point, hardship is also caused by economic growth.
On Sunday I visited the only UN biosphere reserve in Wales: the Dyfi estuary. As is usual at weekends, several hundred people had come to enjoy its beauty and tranquillity and, as is usual, two or three people on jet skis were spoiling it for everyone else. Most economists will tell us that human welfare is best served by multiplying the number of jet skis. If there are two in the estuary today, there should be four there by this time next year and eight the year after. Because the estuary's beauty and tranquillity don't figure in the national accounts (no one pays to watch the sunset) and because the sale and use of jet skis does, this is deemed an improvement in human welfare.
This is a minor illustration of an issue which can no longer be dismissed as trivial. In August the World Health Organisation released the preliminary results of its research into the links between noise and stress. Its work so far suggests that long-term exposure to noise from traffic alone could be responsible, around the world, for hundreds of thousands of deaths through ischaemic heart disease every year, as well as contributing to strokes, high blood pressure, tinnitus, broken sleep and other stress-related illnesses. Noise, its researchers found, raises your levels of stress hormones even while you sleep. As a study of children living close to airports in Germany suggests, it also damages long-term memory, reading and speech perception. All over the world, complaints about noise are rising: to an alien observer it would appear that the primary purpose of economic growth is to find ever more intrusive means of burning fossil fuels.
This leads us to the most obvious way in which further growth will hurt us. Climate change does not lead only to a decline in welfare: beyond a certain point it causes its termination. In other words, it threatens the lives of hundreds of millions of people. However hard governments might work to reduce carbon emissions, they are battling the tide of economic growth. While the rate of growth in the use of energy declines as an economy matures, no country has yet managed to reduce energy use while raising gross domestic product. The UK's carbon dioxide emissions are higher than they were in 1997, partly as a result of the 60 successive quarters of growth that Gordon Brown keeps boasting about. A recession in the rich nations might be the only hope we have of buying the time we need to prevent runaway climate change.
The massive improvements in human welfare -- better housing, better nutrition, better sanitation and better medicine -- over the past 200 years are the result of economic growth and the learning, spending, innovation and political empowerment it has permitted. But at what point should it stop? In other words, at what point do governments decide that the marginal costs of further growth exceed the marginal benefits? Most of them have no answer to this question. Growth must continue, for good or ill. It seems to me that in the rich nations we have already reached the logical place to stop.
I now live in one of the poorest places in Britain. The teenagers here have expensive haircuts, fashionable clothes and mobile phones. Most of those who are old enough have cars, which they drive incessantly and write off every few weeks. Their fuel and insurance bills must be astronomical. They have been liberated from the horrible poverty their grandparents suffered, and this is something we should celebrate and must never forget. But with one major exception, can anyone argue that the basic needs of everyone in the rich nations cannot now be met?
The exception is housing, and in this case the growth in value is one of the reasons for exclusion. A new analysis by Goldman Sachs shows that current house prices are not just the result of a shortage of supply: if they were, then the rise in prices should have been matched by the rise in rents. Even taking scarcity into account, the analysts believe that houses are overvalued by some 20%.
Governments love growth because it excuses them from dealing with inequality. As Henry Wallich, a governor of the US Federal Reserve, once pointed out in defending the current economic model, "growth is a substitute for equality of income. So long as there is growth there is hope, and that makes large income differentials tolerable". Growth is a political sedative, snuffing out protest, permitting governments to avoid confrontation with the rich, preventing the construction of a just and sustainable economy. Growth has permitted the social stratification which even the Daily Mail now laments.
Is there anything which could sensibly be described as welfare that the rich can now gain? A month ago the Financial Times ran a feature on how department stores are trying to cater for "the consumer who has Arrived". But the unspoken theme of the article is that no one arrives -- the destination keeps shifting. The problem, an executive from Chanel explained, is that luxury has been "over-democratised." The rich are having to spend more and more to distinguish themselves from the herd: in the US the market in goods and services designed for this purpose is worth £720bn a year. To ensure that you cannot be mistaken for a lesser being, you can now buy gold and diamond saucepans from Harrods. Without conscious irony, the article was illustrated with a photograph of a coffin. It turns out to be a replica of Lord Nelson's coffin, carved from wood taken from the ship on which he died, and yours for a fortune in a new, hyper-luxury department of Selfridges. Sacrificing your health and happiness to earn the money to buy this junk looks like a sign of advanced mental illness.
Is it not time to recognise that we have reached the promised land, and should seek to stay there? Why would we want to leave this place in order to explore the blackened wastes of consumer frenzy followed by ecological collapse? Surely the rational policy for the governments of the rich world is now to keep growth rates as close to zero as possible?
But because political discourse is controlled by people who put the accumulation of money above all other ends, this policy appears to be impossible. Unpleasant as it will be, it is hard to see what except an accidental recession could prevent economic growth from blowing us through Canaan and into the desert on the other side.
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Posted by: Democritus on Nov 1, 2007 12:27 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem is that everyone knows, in theory, that there is no such thing as "free lunch." In practice, however, everyone wants more than his proper piece of the pie. Depression era babies knew how hard it was to scrimp during hard times. Unfortunately, those who now seem to have everything will be the ones to really suffer when the free lunch counter turns into the soup kitchen line.
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» There IS a way to put a stop to human greed...
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: henderson on Nov 1, 2007 1:18 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: mont on Nov 1, 2007 6:27 PM
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Posted by: davy on Nov 2, 2007 1:48 AM
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» RE: maximum effectiveness = kindness
Posted by: Sojourner
» Growing up
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: maximum effectiveness = kindness
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» "Learning is not intended to be fun" What!!!
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: richholland on Nov 3, 2007 5:41 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A depression will lead to a NEW war...
Remember no war in IRAQ will mean money for education, environment and health care???
As our big PROPHET MR>AL GORE ESQ> pointed out a little change of lifestyle in America could change a lot....
Think of the fuel saving if every USA citizen would have a month paid holiday
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» RE: there is hope
Posted by: redbird30328
» RE: there is hope
Posted by: Joe
» RE: there is hope
Posted by: richholland
» RE: there is hope
Posted by: redbird30328
» RE: there is hope
Posted by: Knot_Rich
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Posted by: Bloomie 1937 on Nov 3, 2007 7:01 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» You mean RIGGED "CAPITALISM"
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: You mean RIGGED "CAPITALISM"
Posted by: Cathyc
» There is no such thing as RIGGED CAPITALISM. Only Capitalism.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: CAPITALISM -- a long-term Ponzi scheme that's good hiding negative externalities
Posted by: amacd
» PREDATORS breed predators.
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: CAPITALISM
Posted by: Knot_Rich
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Posted by: mrxls on Nov 3, 2007 8:22 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree that it would be great if our economies could be weaned of their addiction to growth. Keep in mind as long as populations are increasing, even through immigration, you need some amount of growth just to stay the same.
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» RE: ecession will accelerate global warming
Posted by: makeadifference
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Posted by: Trazom on Nov 3, 2007 8:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The blockheads on Wall Street know only the infinite growth model, and they spew it like a continuous stream of gospel from the All Mighty. What they don't know (or refuse to face) is that the very system they worship is beginning to throw up on them. It has from the start, it's just picking up speed now.
In a sick, perverted way, perhaps Bush (when I say Bush I mean 14 years of Republican reign) have done the country a service by escalating the downfall of our economic model. We have been on this course for a while, so many of us knew it was coming. Better to get ready for it now than put it off for another generation.
It is obvious to any sensible observer, or person of science, that the system cannot go on forever. It must end one day. Why not now?
I agree with Monbiot. Bring it on. It is not a question of if this economic model will come crashing down, it is only a question of when. I'm not being like the typical "sky is falling" liberal here folks, just being realistic.
So let me offer my suggestions for a better future, since I know many Alternet readers don't like to just read complaints, or dooms-day predictions. We need a new economic model based on energy and resources (earth and human), knowing that infinite growth, infinite anything, is not possible (by its very definition). Infinite is only a mathematical construct. We need a new equation to define how well a company does, one that includes the total energy/resources/revenue envelope. Let us pray that when it comes time to replace our current model with a new one that those in charge will understand this.
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» What we need is to retrieve what's left of our humanity!
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Nov 3, 2007 9:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The economic theories of the past century are all nonsense. They were cooked up by wealthy interests to provide 'scientific justification' for their positions of wealth and power.
In a previous age, such justifications were provided by Social Darwinists, who claimed the "might makes right" was the natural order of human society - an evolutionary imperative, actually.
Before that, such justifications were based on religious doctrines - "God has blessed the righteous with wealth, and has condemned the sinners to poverty."
Thomas Jefferson said it well: "All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God..."
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» Because....
Posted by: NumberSix
» Social darwinism sucks. Tyrants need to be overthrown for their own good.
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Nov 3, 2007 9:14 AM
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Nov 3, 2007 9:16 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you're of a mind that people who put off the "give me, give me, give me" mentality, and instead save and live frugally...if you're of a mind that these people should be punished for having the nerve to plan for the contingency that young workers may not be able to fill the federal nipple full enough one day...
...then you'd probably write an article advocating a recession. Or, perhaps you'd join one of many doomsday cults.
A healthy economy in a liberal-leaning market is good for people. For the economic fundies out there: increasing the number of unemployed, hungry, impoverished and/or homeless does not make the world a better place, regardless of what your angels and demons are whispering. That's just your fantasy.
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» Your metric of a healthy economy is no doubt the GDP? An entirely false statistic of health!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» "Born again" philosophy...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Everyone who disagrees with ABF is a religous fundamentalist, apparently:
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Cetainly so.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Social security: the radical notion that societies should provide for all of their members
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Bad ideas don't require worse solutions.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Social security: the radical notion that societies should provide for all of their members
Posted by: Knot_Rich
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Nov 3, 2007 9:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We, the undersigned, make this accusation: that you, the teachers of neoclassical economics and the students that you graduate, have perpetuated a gigantic fraud upon the world.
You claim to work in a pure science of formula and law, but yours is a social science, with all the fragility and uncertainty that this entails. We accuse you of pretending to be what you are not.
You hide in your offices, protected by your jargon, while in the real world forests vanish, species perish, human lives are ruined and lost. We accuse you of gross negligence in the management of our planetary household.
You have known since its inception that your measure of economic progress, the Gross Domestic Product, is fundamentally flawed and incomplete, and yet you have allowed it to become a global standard, reported day by day in every form of media.
We accuse you of recklessly supporting the illusion of progress at the expense of human and environmental health.
You have done great harm, but your time is coming to its close. The revolution of economics has begun, as hopeful and determined as any in our history. We will have our clash of paradigms, we will have our moment of truth, and out of each will come a new economics – open, holistic, human scale.
On campus after campus, we will chase you old goats out of power. Then, in the months and years that follow, we will begin the work of reprogramming the doomsday machine.
Sign the manifesto at
TruecostEconomics.Org
This is a topic that the financial press, the BBC and NPR shun at all costs - because their "objective economic analysis" are the biggest lies of all - and it applies to Keynesian economic theory just as much as it does to Friedman's monetarism. The alternative press in the U.S. isn't much better - you aren't likely to see this discussed on Democracy Now, for example. The last of the honest economists were Adam Smith and David Riccardo - it's been all downhill since then.
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» FOR THOSE OF US WHO HAVE NOT STUDIED ECONOMICS...this is unbelievable.....
Posted by: mdruss42
» RE: FOR THOSE OF US WHO HAVE NOT STUDIED ECONOMICS...this is unbelievable.....
Posted by: richholland
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Posted by: Voicedude on Nov 3, 2007 9:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
....we're already in a recession!
Like everything else in the Bush Denial Machine,
they just won't admit it.
At this point, they'd rather just pass this off to the next President and blame her for it. Sad to think that the GOP-ers would rather destroy the country just to destroy the credibility of the Dems, but there it is! The Dems are also pretty screwed up, but I can't see them doing that....
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» We're already in a recession! ... Yep ! 3.9% was bogus!
Posted by: mmckinl
» Yes we are already in a recession
Posted by: Democratic Socialist
» RE: Yes we are already in a recession
Posted by: meetmeineleusis
» RE: Yes we are already in a recession
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: Yes we are already in a recession
Posted by: richholland
» RE: We're already in a recession!
Posted by: wheresarah
» RE: We're already in a recession!
Posted by: Knot_Rich
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Posted by: makeadifference on Nov 3, 2007 10:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Once you have awakened you can't go back to sleep...watch: Zeitgeist movie!
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» RE: Programed to spend
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Programed to spend
Posted by: jbur816
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Posted by: Trazom on Nov 3, 2007 11:01 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
2. We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.
3. Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school.
4. The conscientious objector is a revolutionary. On deciding to disobey the law he sacrifices his personal interests to the most important cause of working for the betterment of society.
5. There are two ways of resisting war: the legal way and the revolutionary way. The legal way involves the offer of alternative service not as a privilege for a few but as a right for all. The revolutionary view involves an uncompromising resistance, with a view to breaking the power of militarism in time of peace or the resources of the state in time of war.
6. I am absolutely convinced that no wealth in the world can help humanity forward, even in the hands of the most devoted worker in this cause. The example of great and pure personages is the only thing that can lead us to find ideas and noble deeds. Money only appeals to selfishness and always irresistibly tempts its owner to abuse it. Can anyone imagine Moses, Jesus or Gandhi with the moneybags of Carnegie?
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Posted by: MAD on Nov 3, 2007 11:04 AM
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I believe it has been apparent for some time that our economic model is fatally flawed. With resource depletion being what it is, there is positively no way aspiring consumers in places like India, China and Brazil can hope to attain what we have in terms of accumulation of material objects, aka, STUFF. After all, that is the ultimate measure of a person's worth in our capitalist dystopia, is it not? That won't stop them from trying to catch up with the Joneses, however. As a hodgepodge of nascent capitalist countries take flight, those which were mainly out in the communist/command economy cold will come to realize that the only means of feeding this ravenous beast is through ever increasing consumption. And so goes the century . . . upwards and onwards, depleting all earth's natural resources until such time as famine, pestilence and/or war intervene.
Perhaps we've already arrived. After all, "you've come a long way, baby". Wars are sprouting up everywhere now. Even Pakistan and Turkey appear ready to enter the fray along with a host of other countries bent on "getting theirs". It won't be long until some hyper-potent form of Staphylococcus or Avian Flu starts thinning the herd. We've already had a taste of what an global epidemic looks like in our modern A-380 society. As for famine . . . well, I think there's already plenty of that going around. Right here in the grand ol' US of A even.
Unfortunately, I will have to disagree with Mr. Monbiot on one glaring point. In his view, a recession will cleanse the system and remind us what is most important. Presumably that's family, friends, quality of life and love, etc. That very well may be true for many, but recessions and like financial slowdowns invariably affect the poor far more intensely than the wealthy. I doubt many of America's modern oligarchs will be reduced to biking to their new job at Subway.
As usual, poorer Americans who are truly "not in the know" will be separated from their ever depreciating albeit hard earned greenbacks in one final orgy of hyperinflation and indebtedness. I honestly expect to see the dollar abolished in favor of a new currency for which the wealthy among us will have traded up to long ago. The point is, wealth like that possessed by Warren Buffet, Bill Gates or the Sultan of Brunei is immutable and eternal. There will always be a Blackwater or Dyncorp to ensure that the kleptrocracy is intact and suppressing those who would dare step out of line, presuming to have the right to something more than a ration of bread after a day in the company mine. Welcome to your future in the Neo-Feudal society.
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» RE: One problem with your theory, Mr. Monbiot
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: One problem with your theory, Mr. Monbiot
Posted by: MAD
» RE: Bleak assessment, Mad
Posted by: peacelf
» RE: Bleak assessment, Mad
Posted by: CanadianTheorist
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Posted by: ReallyBearish on Nov 3, 2007 12:00 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The reality is that inflation may be as high as 16 percent and not the 2 percent crapola coming out of the BLS. The price of gold and oil are screaming this. Take out inflation and GDP is shrinking, not growing.
The second problem with this article is the word "recession". We should be talking Depression-- one worse than the 1930s.
People will suffer, but there's no way out. Those who put their money in the stock market will be the first victims. Those with dollar denominated assets will be the second. Those ultimately losing their jobs will be the next, and finally, those depending on pensions and SS will bite the dust.
It will be the ultimate genius of Bush and the Fed to try and stop the financial mess through hyperinflation, like Germany in the 1920s. The results will be the same.
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» The recession is already here. The 3.9% GDP was based on 0.8% inflation!
Posted by: mmckinl
» RE: Article makes a few misassumptions
Posted by: aka_bozo
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Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Nov 3, 2007 12:02 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: This belongs on Spoof dot com!
Posted by: aka_bozo
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Posted by: Urgelt on Nov 3, 2007 12:58 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some of what the article says strikes a resonant chord. The jet ski example illustrates a fundamental flaw in pure capitalist ideology which, potentially, could reach its fullest expression by extinguishing humanity through extreme climate change - damage to ecosystems that are "off the books" when it comes to profit and loss statements. Unregulated capitalism is dangerous.
But where do we stop? Two billion humans live in extreme misery. Population is rising. Are we going to lock them and their descendants into the status of have-nots? Or just let them die?
The global climate problem started around 1880, not 2005 - when there were only 1.2 billion people and most of them weren't industrialized. How could we ever cut back energy consumption enough to matter? It would take more than a recession; it would take a die-back of epic proportions to make any substantial difference.
The answer is, we can't stop. Having reached this point, technology is the only way forward.
Capitalism has faults, but it arises out of an extremely simple principle: humans will engage in activities to advance their status and wealth. They are self-serving. If an economic model fails to account for this, it will fail - as pure communism fails. True, people also indulge in other motivations, but we will never convince people to stop seeking self-advantage. Because humans will seek it, wishing they would stop is a waste of time. We need solutions that tap that activity and guide it usefully, not solutions that attempt to frustrate it.
I'm an advocate for a mixed economy. A mixed economy is one which is powered by capitalism, but restrains its worst excesses through regulation, incentives, disincentives, and wealth redistribution. With a mixed economy, we can gain the advantages of technological advancement and higher standards of living capitalism offers, while guiding it to assure that its success does not destroy our biosphere, and us.
My prescription isn't to hope for a recession. It's to guide a transition to non-CO2-emitting energy sources, to grow per capita energy consumption, to continue industrializing the world. It's our only real hope.
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» RE: False Choices
Posted by: matti
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Posted by: macdon1 on Nov 3, 2007 1:56 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: ldasteelworker on Nov 3, 2007 4:05 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
George you really play right into the hands of those in the power elite that actually want economic or other crisis worldwide in order to implement their neo-liberal economic agenda launched by Milton Friedman and others subscribing to the "Chicago School" and "Washington Consensus" economic theories since the 1950's.
You might recognize the agenda... Wait for a crisis or create one; implement economic shock therapy, cut social spending to the bone, dismantle existing laws and democracy, completely deregulate corporations, privatize any publicly held and paid for government asset or common resource, and transfer any associated private corporate debt from this process to the public through direct bailouts, subsidies, and/or some form of tax abatements. And the key is to do this process as completely and quickly as possible before any knowledge, examination, or political resistance can precipitate...
It's an agenda marked by 30 years of mass violence and suffering, corruption, and collusion between governments and multinational corporations around the world. Examples abound: Indonesia, Chile, Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, England, South Africa, United States, Russia, China, Mexico, Iraq, etc...
It's also marked with war on the workers, unions, journalists, or anyone expressing concern about or taking action on civil, social, or environmental issues. Otherwise, if your one of the elite class or a corporation with access to enough capital, you can make tremendous amounts of money during these times of opportunity.
And this is where your point about economic growth comes in... The so-called "Free-Market" neo-liberal economic agenda requires a constant frontier on which to plunder in order to sustain itself. And the doctrine of that agenda has no competition when it comes to whether or not that type economic growth is for the good of society, true democracy, or our planet or not.
I believe that the that greed in an unregulated economy often does not server the better good, contrary to the Gordon Gekko's in this world who believe that;
"Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right; greed works." - Wall Street, the Film by Oliver Stone.
The Gekko's "damn I wish you could see this" perfect economic future is one that will never materialize and its current manifestations are completely unsustainable requiring constant crisis until we finally collapse in economic, environmental, and/or military exhaustion...
Namoi Klein has pointed out in debate over her new book "The Shock Doctrine" that; "... the violence, shocks and crises that were so central to these chapters is not to claim that these tactics are new or unique to right-wingers, but to challenge the prevailing, and I believe dangerous myth that modern deregulated capitalism swept the globe peacefully."
We do not need another crisis as an excuse for the neo-liberals to impose their failed and unsustainable economic agendas upon the masses of the world...
I want to see an economic revolution that lifts up the living and educational standards for people of our world with true conservation coupled with renewable and sustainable energy, technology, and Developmental or Keynesian economies rather than those based upon crisis and destruction.
See Also:
The Shock Doctrine by Alfonso Cuarón and Naomi Klein
( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kieyjfZDUIc )
The Shock Doctrine Official Webpage
( http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine )
The Guardian's Webpage on The Shock Doctrine
( http://books.guardian.co.uk/shockdoctrine )
America's Deadly Shock Doctrine in Iraq
( http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/62525/ )
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» 30 year agenda of the Shock Doctrine
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: TT25 on Nov 3, 2007 9:57 PM
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Posted by: xtiml on Nov 4, 2007 1:00 AM
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But we have given up our power to our fears.you want to screw with the system just everyone take a week off, no buy gas, no go work, no do nothing, no go to war, no do anything, no vote, no nuttin honeyit takes us to recognize we are more in the same boat together instead of against each other we need to use our collective power. close ranks boys and gurls, steady as she goes, they really cant do shit if we operate like this, all together now...1.2.3 all together now. dooodly doodly dooddoo.alltogether now 1,2.3, 4, did sally shut the door? 5,6,7,8 did you get the directions strait?
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» Yep. A MASSIVE BOYCOTT would pull them up short, but...
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Nov 4, 2007 7:08 AM
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It's like saying: "I'm glad the Titanic hit that iceberg. That'll take care of those smart-ass Astors and Guggenheims and Strauss's."
Never mind that far more helpless and vulnerable 2nd and third class suffered and died. But I suppose Mr. Monibot would dismiss that as regretable collateral damage.
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» YOu obviously didn't read the other posts
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» But what about soaring profits in an epoch of stagnant GDP growth. Just irrational exhuberance?
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: Bytesmiths on Nov 4, 2007 11:32 AM
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But almost everyone will see a recession as imposed from outside, as something to work against.
What typically happens during a recession is the "Jevons Paradox": getting by with less eventually causes people to use even more. The bust is followed by an even greater boom. Reduction in consumption will cause prices of natural resources to fall, which will fuel a rise in consumption.
I think the only thing that can save us is really running out of resources, a truly permanent recession, imposed by nature. A recession at this point of peak resource will, unfortunately, be but a slight blip.
We (as a civilization, not as individuals) are trapped on this roller-coaster. Some of us have opted out -- I've been living "in recession" for a decade now -- but not enough to make much of a difference. I'm only hopeful that those who are living sustainably will survive to become teachers.
Jan Steinman, EcoReality
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» nothing to worry about!
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» We were back on the gold standard by 1944 Bretton-Woods ($35/ounce). Inflation increased anyhow.
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: YogiBear on Nov 4, 2007 2:28 PM
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Simple solution: Sell jet skis to anyone who wants them. Sell hunting rifles to everyone else.
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Posted by: Michiganman on Nov 4, 2007 8:42 PM
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Seems like a ridiculous idea but does merit much consideration....
Guess the amish might help us?.....
aw crap I better go buy a few cases of vegtables...
The best to you and yours....Good Luck!
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Posted by: yellow on Nov 5, 2007 6:17 AM
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Considering the fact that over 4.5% average rates of growth were the norm in the immediate three decades of the end of WWII, this represents an epoch of chronic stagnation of late monopoly capitalism over the last twenty five years. The problem is a paucity of fresh investment in output, much of which goes into employment reducing mergers & acquisitions, and, of course, a lack of growing effective consumer demand which is sustained almost entirely by inflation producing debt through credit expansion.
We are in for an epoch of stagflation 1970s style. When there is as much slack in the labor market and industrial capacity utilization as there is presently, demand can be stimulated to increase output up to the point of full employment. But when high and rising energy and food costs plus a monoplist corporate structure puts upward pressure on prices, effective demand will be cut short long before output can expand sufficiently to eliminate unemployment thus negating the positive effects of the Keynesian demand stimulous strategy. So debt driven growth continues creating inflation in order to relieve the very stagnation it is creating through its contradictory strategy of financialization and expansion of consumer credit without creating real production to absorb unused industrial capacity and unemployed workers.
The fear is that such a strategy would put downward pressure on profits through full employment's upward pressure on wages. The real problem is late capitalism's attempts to expand while continually "restructuring" the global division of labor so as to exclude workers from the benefits of growth. Streamlining production to make it "lean and mean", sqeezing unit costs out of global supply chains through union busting and the elimination of "high cost producers" (who employ union labor) through pressure exerted by huge global retail monopolies like Walmart are part of this strategy of capital. Financialization has been the strategy to hold up effective consumer demand in an epoch of a growing maldistribution of wealth and a shrinking middle class.
Military spending also holds up late capitalism but is also inflationary. This is because liquidity increases without sufficient production of consumer goods and services to absorb it.Under GW Bush, military spending has grown from just over 3% of the GDP to almost 4.5%, an increase that represents hundreds of billions of dollars. This "investment" represents an opportunity cost in job creation. Government taxing and spending in the area of energy efficiency, mass transit, health care, education and affordable housing construction would generate more stable consumer demand based on real production and productivity while creating far more jobs at a living wage. The proper coalition to undergird an agenda based on human need not corporate greed would be necessary to demand such a program. For now the working and middle classes are hopelessly misled by various political campaigns of right wing populism and jingoism. This is the real source of inhibition to democratic socialism needed by the broad and growing masses of America's laboring poor.
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Posted by: argyle on Nov 5, 2007 6:35 AM
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Posted by: ClassAct on Nov 5, 2007 9:09 AM
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The only answer lies with thermodynamics. Yes, economy is a pseudoscience that is necessarily bound by the laws of thermodynamics. These are known as efficiencies and in considering the net efficiency for society, they must be multiplied to produce a throughput value. Municipal electrical dynamos, for instance, are rated at 40% efficiency. If a customer uses city power to drive his business and he is operating at an unrealistic machine-like efficiency of 40%, the net throughput is only 16%! Real efficiency throughputs are probably more in the realm of 1%.
For a basic introduction to the concept of thermodynamic economics, see:
www.eco.uni-heidelberg.de/ng-oeoe/research/
papers/Faber%20et%20al%20AEE%201998.pdf
and
dieoff.org
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Posted by: Democratic Socialist on Nov 5, 2007 11:46 AM
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» RE: Let us hope for a deep recession and not eventual economic collapse
Posted by: aka_bozo
» Sounds like the old pre-1933 Communist strategy in Germany of "Nach Hitler Uns." A real loser.
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: higginslads on Nov 6, 2007 1:06 PM
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For those who are interested in doing something constructive about our current state of affairs, please call your representative and urge them to support Mr. Kucinich's bill. The Capitol switchboard is:
1-800-828-0498
1-800-862-5530
1-800-833-6354
Just ask the operator for your representative's office. If you don't know it, tell her/him where you live and she/he will look it up. Once transferred to your representative's office, politely tell the person who answers the phone that you urge your representative to support Kucinich's articles of impeachment against the vice president. You will probably be asked for your name and address.
I just did this. It's the first time I had ever called my representative (Rodney Frelinghuysen in NJ). It was easy and I felt better after doing it.
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» RE: CALL YOUR REPRESENTATIVE NOW!
Posted by: Knot_Rich
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Posted by: Democritus on Nov 1, 2007 12:27 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem is that everyone knows, in theory, that there is no such thing as "free lunch." In practice, however, everyone wants more than his proper piece of the pie. Depression era babies knew how hard it was to scrimp during hard times. Unfortunately, those who now seem to have everything will be the ones to really suffer when the free lunch counter turns into the soup kitchen line.
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» There IS a way to put a stop to human greed...
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: henderson on Nov 1, 2007 1:18 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: mont on Nov 1, 2007 6:27 PM
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Posted by: davy on Nov 2, 2007 1:48 AM
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» RE: maximum effectiveness = kindness
Posted by: Sojourner
» Growing up
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: maximum effectiveness = kindness
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» "Learning is not intended to be fun" What!!!
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: richholland on Nov 3, 2007 5:41 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A depression will lead to a NEW war...
Remember no war in IRAQ will mean money for education, environment and health care???
As our big PROPHET MR>AL GORE ESQ> pointed out a little change of lifestyle in America could change a lot....
Think of the fuel saving if every USA citizen would have a month paid holiday
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» RE: there is hope
Posted by: redbird30328
» RE: there is hope
Posted by: Joe
» RE: there is hope
Posted by: richholland
» RE: there is hope
Posted by: redbird30328
» RE: there is hope
Posted by: Knot_Rich
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Posted by: Bloomie 1937 on Nov 3, 2007 7:01 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» You mean RIGGED "CAPITALISM"
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: You mean RIGGED "CAPITALISM"
Posted by: Cathyc
» There is no such thing as RIGGED CAPITALISM. Only Capitalism.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: CAPITALISM -- a long-term Ponzi scheme that's good hiding negative externalities
Posted by: amacd
» PREDATORS breed predators.
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: CAPITALISM
Posted by: Knot_Rich
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Posted by: mrxls on Nov 3, 2007 8:22 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree that it would be great if our economies could be weaned of their addiction to growth. Keep in mind as long as populations are increasing, even through immigration, you need some amount of growth just to stay the same.
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» RE: ecession will accelerate global warming
Posted by: makeadifference
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Posted by: Trazom on Nov 3, 2007 8:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The blockheads on Wall Street know only the infinite growth model, and they spew it like a continuous stream of gospel from the All Mighty. What they don't know (or refuse to face) is that the very system they worship is beginning to throw up on them. It has from the start, it's just picking up speed now.
In a sick, perverted way, perhaps Bush (when I say Bush I mean 14 years of Republican reign) have done the country a service by escalating the downfall of our economic model. We have been on this course for a while, so many of us knew it was coming. Better to get ready for it now than put it off for another generation.
It is obvious to any sensible observer, or person of science, that the system cannot go on forever. It must end one day. Why not now?
I agree with Monbiot. Bring it on. It is not a question of if this economic model will come crashing down, it is only a question of when. I'm not being like the typical "sky is falling" liberal here folks, just being realistic.
So let me offer my suggestions for a better future, since I know many Alternet readers don't like to just read complaints, or dooms-day predictions. We need a new economic model based on energy and resources (earth and human), knowing that infinite growth, infinite anything, is not possible (by its very definition). Infinite is only a mathematical construct. We need a new equation to define how well a company does, one that includes the total energy/resources/revenue envelope. Let us pray that when it comes time to replace our current model with a new one that those in charge will understand this.
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» What we need is to retrieve what's left of our humanity!
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Nov 3, 2007 9:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The economic theories of the past century are all nonsense. They were cooked up by wealthy interests to provide 'scientific justification' for their positions of wealth and power.
In a previous age, such justifications were provided by Social Darwinists, who claimed the "might makes right" was the natural order of human society - an evolutionary imperative, actually.
Before that, such justifications were based on religious doctrines - "God has blessed the righteous with wealth, and has condemned the sinners to poverty."
Thomas Jefferson said it well: "All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God..."
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» Because....
Posted by: NumberSix
» Social darwinism sucks. Tyrants need to be overthrown for their own good.
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Nov 3, 2007 9:14 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Nov 3, 2007 9:16 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you're of a mind that people who put off the "give me, give me, give me" mentality, and instead save and live frugally...if you're of a mind that these people should be punished for having the nerve to plan for the contingency that young workers may not be able to fill the federal nipple full enough one day...
...then you'd probably write an article advocating a recession. Or, perhaps you'd join one of many doomsday cults.
A healthy economy in a liberal-leaning market is good for people. For the economic fundies out there: increasing the number of unemployed, hungry, impoverished and/or homeless does not make the world a better place, regardless of what your angels and demons are whispering. That's just your fantasy.
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» Your metric of a healthy economy is no doubt the GDP? An entirely false statistic of health!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» "Born again" philosophy...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Everyone who disagrees with ABF is a religous fundamentalist, apparently:
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Cetainly so.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Social security: the radical notion that societies should provide for all of their members
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Bad ideas don't require worse solutions.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Social security: the radical notion that societies should provide for all of their members
Posted by: Knot_Rich
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Nov 3, 2007 9:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We, the undersigned, make this accusation: that you, the teachers of neoclassical economics and the students that you graduate, have perpetuated a gigantic fraud upon the world.
You claim to work in a pure science of formula and law, but yours is a social science, with all the fragility and uncertainty that this entails. We accuse you of pretending to be what you are not.
You hide in your offices, protected by your jargon, while in the real world forests vanish, species perish, human lives are ruined and lost. We accuse you of gross negligence in the management of our planetary household.
You have known since its inception that your measure of economic progress, the Gross Domestic Product, is fundamentally flawed and incomplete, and yet you have allowed it to become a global standard, reported day by day in every form of media.
We accuse you of recklessly supporting the illusion of progress at the expense of human and environmental health.
You have done great harm, but your time is coming to its close. The revolution of economics has begun, as hopeful and determined as any in our history. We will have our clash of paradigms, we will have our moment of truth, and out of each will come a new economics – open, holistic, human scale.
On campus after campus, we will chase you old goats out of power. Then, in the months and years that follow, we will begin the work of reprogramming the doomsday machine.
Sign the manifesto at
TruecostEconomics.Org
This is a topic that the financial press, the BBC and NPR shun at all costs - because their "objective economic analysis" are the biggest lies of all - and it applies to Keynesian economic theory just as much as it does to Friedman's monetarism. The alternative press in the U.S. isn't much better - you aren't likely to see this discussed on Democracy Now, for example. The last of the honest economists were Adam Smith and David Riccardo - it's been all downhill since then.
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» FOR THOSE OF US WHO HAVE NOT STUDIED ECONOMICS...this is unbelievable.....
Posted by: mdruss42
» RE: FOR THOSE OF US WHO HAVE NOT STUDIED ECONOMICS...this is unbelievable.....
Posted by: richholland
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Posted by: Voicedude on Nov 3, 2007 9:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
....we're already in a recession!
Like everything else in the Bush Denial Machine,
they just won't admit it.
At this point, they'd rather just pass this off to the next President and blame her for it. Sad to think that the GOP-ers would rather destroy the country just to destroy the credibility of the Dems, but there it is! The Dems are also pretty screwed up, but I can't see them doing that....
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» We're already in a recession! ... Yep ! 3.9% was bogus!
Posted by: mmckinl
» Yes we are already in a recession
Posted by: Democratic Socialist
» RE: Yes we are already in a recession
Posted by: meetmeineleusis
» RE: Yes we are already in a recession
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: Yes we are already in a recession
Posted by: richholland
» RE: We're already in a recession!
Posted by: wheresarah
» RE: We're already in a recession!
Posted by: Knot_Rich
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Posted by: makeadifference on Nov 3, 2007 10:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Once you have awakened you can't go back to sleep...watch: Zeitgeist movie!
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» RE: Programed to spend
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Programed to spend
Posted by: jbur816
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Posted by: Trazom on Nov 3, 2007 11:01 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
2. We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.
3. Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school.
4. The conscientious objector is a revolutionary. On deciding to disobey the law he sacrifices his personal interests to the most important cause of working for the betterment of society.
5. There are two ways of resisting war: the legal way and the revolutionary way. The legal way involves the offer of alternative service not as a privilege for a few but as a right for all. The revolutionary view involves an uncompromising resistance, with a view to breaking the power of militarism in time of peace or the resources of the state in time of war.
6. I am absolutely convinced that no wealth in the world can help humanity forward, even in the hands of the most devoted worker in this cause. The example of great and pure personages is the only thing that can lead us to find ideas and noble deeds. Money only appeals to selfishness and always irresistibly tempts its owner to abuse it. Can anyone imagine Moses, Jesus or Gandhi with the moneybags of Carnegie?
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Posted by: MAD on Nov 3, 2007 11:04 AM
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I believe it has been apparent for some time that our economic model is fatally flawed. With resource depletion being what it is, there is positively no way aspiring consumers in places like India, China and Brazil can hope to attain what we have in terms of accumulation of material objects, aka, STUFF. After all, that is the ultimate measure of a person's worth in our capitalist dystopia, is it not? That won't stop them from trying to catch up with the Joneses, however. As a hodgepodge of nascent capitalist countries take flight, those which were mainly out in the communist/command economy cold will come to realize that the only means of feeding this ravenous beast is through ever increasing consumption. And so goes the century . . . upwards and onwards, depleting all earth's natural resources until such time as famine, pestilence and/or war intervene.
Perhaps we've already arrived. After all, "you've come a long way, baby". Wars are sprouting up everywhere now. Even Pakistan and Turkey appear ready to enter the fray along with a host of other countries bent on "getting theirs". It won't be long until some hyper-potent form of Staphylococcus or Avian Flu starts thinning the herd. We've already had a taste of what an global epidemic looks like in our modern A-380 society. As for famine . . . well, I think there's already plenty of that going around. Right here in the grand ol' US of A even.
Unfortunately, I will have to disagree with Mr. Monbiot on one glaring point. In his view, a recession will cleanse the system and remind us what is most important. Presumably that's family, friends, quality of life and love, etc. That very well may be true for many, but recessions and like financial slowdowns invariably affect the poor far more intensely than the wealthy. I doubt many of America's modern oligarchs will be reduced to biking to their new job at Subway.
As usual, poorer Americans who are truly "not in the know" will be separated from their ever depreciating albeit hard earned greenbacks in one final orgy of hyperinflation and indebtedness. I honestly expect to see the dollar abolished in favor of a new currency for which the wealthy among us will have traded up to long ago. The point is, wealth like that possessed by Warren Buffet, Bill Gates or the Sultan of Brunei is immutable and eternal. There will always be a Blackwater or Dyncorp to ensure that the kleptrocracy is intact and suppressing those who would dare step out of line, presuming to have the right to something more than a ration of bread after a day in the company mine. Welcome to your future in the Neo-Feudal society.
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» RE: One problem with your theory, Mr. Monbiot
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: One problem with your theory, Mr. Monbiot
Posted by: MAD
» RE: Bleak assessment, Mad
Posted by: peacelf
» RE: Bleak assessment, Mad
Posted by: CanadianTheorist
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ReallyBearish on Nov 3, 2007 12:00 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The reality is that inflation may be as high as 16 percent and not the 2 percent crapola coming out of the BLS. The price of gold and oil are screaming this. Take out inflation and GDP is shrinking, not growing.
The second problem with this article is the word "recession". We should be talking Depression-- one worse than the 1930s.
People will suffer, but there's no way out. Those who put their money in the stock market will be the first victims. Those with dollar denominated assets will be the second. Those ultimately losing their jobs will be the next, and finally, those depending on pensions and SS will bite the dust.
It will be the ultimate genius of Bush and the Fed to try and stop the financial mess through hyperinflation, like Germany in the 1920s. The results will be the same.
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» The recession is already here. The 3.9% GDP was based on 0.8% inflation!
Posted by: mmckinl
» RE: Article makes a few misassumptions
Posted by: aka_bozo
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Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Nov 3, 2007 12:02 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: This belongs on Spoof dot com!
Posted by: aka_bozo
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Posted by: Urgelt on Nov 3, 2007 12:58 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some of what the article says strikes a resonant chord. The jet ski example illustrates a fundamental flaw in pure capitalist ideology which, potentially, could reach its fullest expression by extinguishing humanity through extreme climate change - damage to ecosystems that are "off the books" when it comes to profit and loss statements. Unregulated capitalism is dangerous.
But where do we stop? Two billion humans live in extreme misery. Population is rising. Are we going to lock them and their descendants into the status of have-nots? Or just let them die?
The global climate problem started around 1880, not 2005 - when there were only 1.2 billion people and most of them weren't industrialized. How could we ever cut back energy consumption enough to matter? It would take more than a recession; it would take a die-back of epic proportions to make any substantial difference.
The answer is, we can't stop. Having reached this point, technology is the only way forward.
Capitalism has faults, but it arises out of an extremely simple principle: humans will engage in activities to advance their status and wealth. They are self-serving. If an economic model fails to account for this, it will fail - as pure communism fails. True, people also indulge in other motivations, but we will never convince people to stop seeking self-advantage. Because humans will seek it, wishing they would stop is a waste of time. We need solutions that tap that activity and guide it usefully, not solutions that attempt to frustrate it.
I'm an advocate for a mixed economy. A mixed economy is one which is powered by capitalism, but restrains its worst excesses through regulation, incentives, disincentives, and wealth redistribution. With a mixed economy, we can gain the advantages of technological advancement and higher standards of living capitalism offers, while guiding it to assure that its success does not destroy our biosphere, and us.
My prescription isn't to hope for a recession. It's to guide a transition to non-CO2-emitting energy sources, to grow per capita energy consumption, to continue industrializing the world. It's our only real hope.
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» RE: False Choices
Posted by: matti
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Posted by: macdon1 on Nov 3, 2007 1:56 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: ldasteelworker on Nov 3, 2007 4:05 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
George you really play right into the hands of those in the power elite that actually want economic or other crisis worldwide in order to implement their neo-liberal economic agenda launched by Milton Friedman and others subscribing to the "Chicago School" and "Washington Consensus" economic theories since the 1950's.
You might recognize the agenda... Wait for a crisis or create one; implement economic shock therapy, cut social spending to the bone, dismantle existing laws and democracy, completely deregulate corporations, privatize any publicly held and paid for government asset or common resource, and transfer any associated private corporate debt from this process to the public through direct bailouts, subsidies, and/or some form of tax abatements. And the key is to do this process as completely and quickly as possible before any knowledge, examination, or political resistance can precipitate...
It's an agenda marked by 30 years of mass violence and suffering, corruption, and collusion between governments and multinational corporations around the world. Examples abound: Indonesia, Chile, Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, England, South Africa, United States, Russia, China, Mexico, Iraq, etc...
It's also marked with war on the workers, unions, journalists, or anyone expressing concern about or taking action on civil, social, or environmental issues. Otherwise, if your one of the elite class or a corporation with access to enough capital, you can make tremendous amounts of money during these times of opportunity.
And this is where your point about economic growth comes in... The so-called "Free-Market" neo-liberal economic agenda requires a constant frontier on which to plunder in order to sustain itself. And the doctrine of that agenda has no competition when it comes to whether or not that type economic growth is for the good of society, true democracy, or our planet or not.
I believe that the that greed in an unregulated economy often does not server the better good, contrary to the Gordon Gekko's in this world who believe that;
"Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right; greed works." - Wall Street, the Film by Oliver Stone.
The Gekko's "damn I wish you could see this" perfect economic future is one that will never materialize and its current manifestations are completely unsustainable requiring constant crisis until we finally collapse in economic, environmental, and/or military exhaustion...
Namoi Klein has pointed out in debate over her new book "The Shock Doctrine" that; "... the violence, shocks and crises that were so central to these chapters is not to claim that these tactics are new or unique to right-wingers, but to challenge the prevailing, and I believe dangerous myth that modern deregulated capitalism swept the globe peacefully."
We do not need another crisis as an excuse for the neo-liberals to impose their failed and unsustainable economic agendas upon the masses of the world...
I want to see an economic revolution that lifts up the living and educational standards for people of our world with true conservation coupled with renewable and sustainable energy, technology, and Developmental or Keynesian economies rather than those based upon crisis and destruction.
See Also:
The Shock Doctrine by Alfonso Cuarón and Naomi Klein
( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kieyjfZDUIc )
The Shock Doctrine Official Webpage
( http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine )
The Guardian's Webpage on The Shock Doctrine
( http://books.guardian.co.uk/shockdoctrine )
America's Deadly Shock Doctrine in Iraq
( http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/62525/ )
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» 30 year agenda of the Shock Doctrine
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: TT25 on Nov 3, 2007 9:57 PM
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Posted by: xtiml on Nov 4, 2007 1:00 AM
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But we have given up our power to our fears.you want to screw with the system just everyone take a week off, no buy gas, no go work, no do nothing, no go to war, no do anything, no vote, no nuttin honeyit takes us to recognize we are more in the same boat together instead of against each other we need to use our collective power. close ranks boys and gurls, steady as she goes, they really cant do shit if we operate like this, all together now...1.2.3 all together now. dooodly doodly dooddoo.alltogether now 1,2.3, 4, did sally shut the door? 5,6,7,8 did you get the directions strait?
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» Yep. A MASSIVE BOYCOTT would pull them up short, but...
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Nov 4, 2007 7:08 AM
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It's like saying: "I'm glad the Titanic hit that iceberg. That'll take care of those smart-ass Astors and Guggenheims and Strauss's."
Never mind that far more helpless and vulnerable 2nd and third class suffered and died. But I suppose Mr. Monibot would dismiss that as regretable collateral damage.
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» YOu obviously didn't read the other posts
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» But what about soaring profits in an epoch of stagnant GDP growth. Just irrational exhuberance?
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: Bytesmiths on Nov 4, 2007 11:32 AM
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But almost everyone will see a recession as imposed from outside, as something to work against.
What typically happens during a recession is the "Jevons Paradox": getting by with less eventually causes people to use even more. The bust is followed by an even greater boom. Reduction in consumption will cause prices of natural resources to fall, which will fuel a rise in consumption.
I think the only thing that can save us is really running out of resources, a truly permanent recession, imposed by nature. A recession at this point of peak resource will, unfortunately, be but a slight blip.
We (as a civilization, not as individuals) are trapped on this roller-coaster. Some of us have opted out -- I've been living "in recession" for a decade now -- but not enough to make much of a difference. I'm only hopeful that those who are living sustainably will survive to become teachers.
Jan Steinman, EcoReality
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» nothing to worry about!
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» We were back on the gold standard by 1944 Bretton-Woods ($35/ounce). Inflation increased anyhow.
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: YogiBear on Nov 4, 2007 2:28 PM
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Simple solution: Sell jet skis to anyone who wants them. Sell hunting rifles to everyone else.
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Posted by: Michiganman on Nov 4, 2007 8:42 PM
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Seems like a ridiculous idea but does merit much consideration....
Guess the amish might help us?.....
aw crap I better go buy a few cases of vegtables...
The best to you and yours....Good Luck!
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Posted by: yellow on Nov 5, 2007 6:17 AM
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Considering the fact that over 4.5% average rates of growth were the norm in the immediate three decades of the end of WWII, this represents an epoch of chronic stagnation of late monopoly capitalism over the last twenty five years. The problem is a paucity of fresh investment in output, much of which goes into employment reducing mergers & acquisitions, and, of course, a lack of growing effective consumer demand which is sustained almost entirely by inflation producing debt through credit expansion.
We are in for an epoch of stagflation 1970s style. When there is as much slack in the labor market and industrial capacity utilization as there is presently, demand can be stimulated to increase output up to the point of full employment. But when high and rising energy and food costs plus a monoplist corporate structure puts upward pressure on prices, effective demand will be cut short long before output can expand sufficiently to eliminate unemployment thus negating the positive effects of the Keynesian demand stimulous strategy. So debt driven growth continues creating inflation in order to relieve the very stagnation it is creating through its contradictory strategy of financialization and expansion of consumer credit without creating real production to absorb unused industrial capacity and unemployed workers.
The fear is that such a strategy would put downward pressure on profits through full employment's upward pressure on wages. The real problem is late capitalism's attempts to expand while continually "restructuring" the global division of labor so as to exclude workers from the benefits of growth. Streamlining production to make it "lean and mean", sqeezing unit costs out of global supply chains through union busting and the elimination of "high cost producers" (who employ union labor) through pressure exerted by huge global retail monopolies like Walmart are part of this strategy of capital. Financialization has been the strategy to hold up effective consumer demand in an epoch of a growing maldistribution of wealth and a shrinking middle class.
Military spending also holds up late capitalism but is also inflationary. This is because liquidity increases without sufficient production of consumer goods and services to absorb it.Under GW Bush, military spending has grown from just over 3% of the GDP to almost 4.5%, an increase that represents hundreds of billions of dollars. This "investment" represents an opportunity cost in job creation. Government taxing and spending in the area of energy efficiency, mass transit, health care, education and affordable housing construction would generate more stable consumer demand based on real production and productivity while creating far more jobs at a living wage. The proper coalition to undergird an agenda based on human need not corporate greed would be necessary to demand such a program. For now the working and middle classes are hopelessly misled by various political campaigns of right wing populism and jingoism. This is the real source of inhibition to democratic socialism needed by the broad and growing masses of America's laboring poor.
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Posted by: argyle on Nov 5, 2007 6:35 AM
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Posted by: ClassAct on Nov 5, 2007 9:09 AM
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The only answer lies with thermodynamics. Yes, economy is a pseudoscience that is necessarily bound by the laws of thermodynamics. These are known as efficiencies and in considering the net efficiency for society, they must be multiplied to produce a throughput value. Municipal electrical dynamos, for instance, are rated at 40% efficiency. If a customer uses city power to drive his business and he is operating at an unrealistic machine-like efficiency of 40%, the net throughput is only 16%! Real efficiency throughputs are probably more in the realm of 1%.
For a basic introduction to the concept of thermodynamic economics, see:
www.eco.uni-heidelberg.de/ng-oeoe/research/
papers/Faber%20et%20al%20AEE%201998.pdf
and
dieoff.org
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Posted by: Democratic Socialist on Nov 5, 2007 11:46 AM
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» RE: Let us hope for a deep recession and not eventual economic collapse
Posted by: aka_bozo
» Sounds like the old pre-1933 Communist strategy in Germany of "Nach Hitler Uns." A real loser.
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: higginslads on Nov 6, 2007 1:06 PM
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For those who are interested in doing something constructive about our current state of affairs, please call your representative and urge them to support Mr. Kucinich's bill. The Capitol switchboard is:
1-800-828-0498
1-800-862-5530
1-800-833-6354
Just ask the operator for your representative's office. If you don't know it, tell her/him where you live and she/he will look it up. Once transferred to your representative's office, politely tell the person who answers the phone that you urge your representative to support Kucinich's articles of impeachment against the vice president. You will probably be asked for your name and address.
I just did this. It's the first time I had ever called my representative (Rodney Frelinghuysen in NJ). It was easy and I felt better after doing it.
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» RE: CALL YOUR REPRESENTATIVE NOW!
Posted by: Knot_Rich
Tax the Corporations and the Rich or Take Draconian Cuts -- the Decision Is Ours
Fury at Wall St. Banks Fuels Public Action for Move Your Money Campaign
Why Congress Wants You to Shun Your Local Bookstore and Shop at Amazon Instead




