ECONOMY  
AlterNet / By Joshua Holland
comments_imageCOMMENTS: 192

Americans Don't Believe in the American Dream

More and more working Americans are realizing that the game is rigged against them.
October 12, 2007  |  
 
 
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Joshua Holland is an AlterNet staff writer.
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On Life Support
[Report this comment]
Posted by: NoPCZone on Oct 12, 2007 12:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Until we bring an end to corporate person-hood we will never undo all of the tremendous damage done to our nation the last 25-30 years. Even then the road will be tough. I really see no civil (political) resolution of significance coming until we get the corporate sharks and lobbyist parasites out of the temple of government.

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» The reality is .... Posted by: skoog5600
» RE: The reality is .... Posted by: richholland
» RE: The reality is .... Posted by: redbird30328
» Hey RedBird Posted by: Aimleft
» RE: The reality is .... Posted by: drcyflowers
» RE: The reality is .... Posted by: ordaj
» RE: The reality is .... Posted by: bsdone
» RE: The reality is .... Posted by: Joseph4408

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This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.

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True - times have changed
[Report this comment]
Posted by: redbird30328 on Oct 12, 2007 3:26 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I see no reason why the "Government" should guarantee that people should be able to sleep walk through high school, join the UAW, perform incompetently when they actually work, and still make $50K + per year with 4 weeks paid vacation just because their parents did. That arbitrage is over. Good riddance!

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» RE: True - times have changed Posted by: richholland
» RE: True - times have changed Posted by: redbird30328
» RE: True - times have changed Posted by: richholland
» RE: True - times have changed Posted by: redbird30328
» RE: True - times have changed Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: True - times have changed Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: True - times have changed Posted by: mnascimento
» RE: True - times have changed Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: True - times have changed Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: True - times have changed Posted by: newtype_alpha
» RE: Generalize much? Posted by: duck-lady
» RE: Generalize much? Posted by: redbird30328
» RE: Generalize much? Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Generalize much? Posted by: redbird30328
» Love those dinosaurs! Posted by: hagwind
» one of life's little lessons Posted by: mdruss42
» Speaking of arbitrage... Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle

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We need radical change in Washington
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Morgaine Swann on Oct 12, 2007 4:33 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The fact is that the people supposedly elected to represent us are just out for themselves. Government is no longer a cooperative system that provides for the welfare of the people - it's a way for the wealthy to siphon off the national treasury. When our economy does collapse, the very wealthy will be fine, and the rest of us will get to live like serfs.

Something needs to shake this govenment up, to get the career politicians out of there and get us back on track. We need public campaign financing so regular people can run for office. We need to get the profit out of health care and stop tying it to employment. If people are losing their homes, dying from treatable illnesses and failing to get a good education, that creates a poor climate for everyone in the country. There is a class system in America and it's getting worse. Soon there will only be the very wealthy and the very poor. We have to stop moving our money upward, and see that everyone has a solid base to live on.

Companies shouldn't be allowed to build their fortunes on the backs of poorly paid American workers, and then turn around and move the company off-shore. Corporations exist only because we allow them to - they have a responsibility to give back to the communities that supported them. The era of corporate personhood has to end now. We can't afford to let business run just by the bottom line. There has to be accountability to the workers, too.

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Dream
[Report this comment]
Posted by: ReverendMarkCom on Oct 12, 2007 5:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's the most important word in this article. Dream.

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» Wake-up is what is important! Posted by: common intelligence
» "Most" surveys? No. Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Opps. I meant 1960, of course. Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: "Most" surveys? No. Posted by: hagwind
» RE: "Most" surveys? No. Posted by: Joshua Holland

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$100K and below is poor
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Trazom on Oct 12, 2007 5:37 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let me reiterate - $100K is nothing nowadays, especially in some of the higher priced areas of the country. In fact, I would say that anything less than $150K could be considered poor, maybe even higher than that.

I know, because I make somewhat less than $100k gross, but struggle financially, mostly due to insanely high property taxes and cost of food.

The sick thing is that under IRS guidelines, more and more people making $100K will fall victim to the alternative minimum tax this year, short of another bandaid from Congress (they refuse to look at the issue apparently). So even though you can't pay your bills, the Feds consider you rich, and tax you at much higher rates. How's that for a fair system.

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» RE: $100K and below is poor Posted by: richholland
» RE: $100K and below is poor Posted by: Trazom
» RE: $100K and below is poor Posted by: richholland
» RE: $100K and below is poor Posted by: sausage
» RE: $100K and below is poor Posted by: Aimleft
» RE: $100K and below is poor Posted by: JERSEYDAN
» RE: $100K and below is poor Posted by: Democratic Socialist
» RE: $100K and below is poor Posted by: JERSEYDAN
» RE: $100K and below is poor Posted by: Trazom

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Excellent article
[Report this comment]
Posted by: mnascimento on Oct 12, 2007 5:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article articulates all that I observe and am experiencing.

I expect that we will reach a tipping point in the near future.
When those who labor in vain, and feel hopeless about their prospects, will revolt.

Homeland Security is an elite preparation for containing the anarchy of the disillusioned masses in America.

History should have taught us by now, that those who can't sit at the table, will inevitably, kick it over.

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» RE: xcellent article Posted by: djnoll
» RE: xcellent article Posted by: scheherezade
» RE: xcellent article Posted by: richholland
» RE: xcellent article Posted by: mnascimento
» RE: xcellent article Posted by: lenox
» RE: xcellent article Posted by: yesman

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I'm living the dream
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Nugeman on Oct 12, 2007 6:39 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The United States of America is still the greatest country.

I dropped out of high school in 1972. Got a job, worked 3 years, decided I could do more in this land of opportunity. Got my GED, enrolled in night school. Got a 2 year Associates Degree. Got a career. I saw my income rise steadily over the years. Got married, put 2 kids thru college. Never collected a dime of taxpayer money. Have a 4 bedroom house in the suburbs and a nice nest egg for retirement in 12 years. My investments are doing fantastic in the growing economy. The Bush tax cuts have given even me, more of my money to work with. My wife and I aren't rich, but lead a comfortable life with a combined $90,000 annual income.

Is this a great country or what. I did it all the old fashioned way. I earned it.

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» Repo man Posted by: ScottP
» RE: I'm living the dream Posted by: richholland
» RE: I'm living the dream Posted by: redbird30328
» RE: I'm living the dream Posted by: coldbliss
» "Their own choices" lol Posted by: newtype_alpha
» RE: I'm living the dream Posted by: newtype_alpha
» Do you work for Blackwater? Posted by: makeadifference
» RE: I'm living the dream Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: I'm living the dream Posted by: VZEQICVA
» Seriously doubt your tax break Posted by: snideelf
» RE: I'm living the dream Posted by: melloe

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If it's a dream, then it cannot exist in reality.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: maxpayne on Oct 12, 2007 6:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That might have been what Martin Luther said in his "I have a Dream" speech. Unfortunately, if that's the case, he correctly predicted that what he dreamed of would never happen.

And now, we return you to REALITY IN HELL !

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The American Ream
[Report this comment]
Posted by: LMNOP on Oct 12, 2007 6:52 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nice article, Joshua. Spot on.

Here’s something I posted under the article, “Is the American Dream a Delusion? By Courtney E. Martin, AlterNet. October 3, 2006.”, which can be found HERE:

“Interestingly, the author never states explicitly what ‘The American Dream’ is or was. All that one can infer from the piece is the vague notion of equal economic opportunity. Is it the dream *about* America by a foreigner dreaming to escape the chains of poverty and some oppressive class structure elsewhere and come to America for an education or a job? Or is it a dream *of* Americans? And if the latter, which of several is it? Is it the dream to own a home and raise a family on the income of a typical wage earner, or the one about ones kids having it better than themselves.

“Perhaps there are other American dreams that I’m forgetting. Oh yeah, that anyone can become president. And that anyone can become independently wealthy. There must be a half dozen more floating around. I think that the American middle class of Ritchie Cunningham’s or Beaver Cleaver’s time is the embodiment of some of the dreams, and the American upper class a la Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous is the embodiment of another whole set of dreams.

“Perhaps I’m being picky thinking that someone should be able to define THE American dream unambiguously. And perhaps it’s all of these, that is, there is no American dream per se, just a vague notion of opportunity whether that be social opportunity for the lower classes or economic opportunity.

“Also interesting is that, as the author implies, the dream is probably over. America as I knew it is a dream. Maybe that’s the new American dream: a return to normalcy and a restoration of the Constitution and the rule of law rather than evolving into an overt autocracy.

“Me? I dream of finding a better home elsewhere. I have worked hard and played by the rules all of my life, and I’ve had enough of the dream. The playing field is not level and the rules are unfair. I’m an American physician, and I can tell you, virtually ALL of us regret our career choices and the ugly environment that government and business have created for us and our patients, one minimally related to health care but ideal for insurers and the suppliers of pharmaceuticals and other medical technology.

“Today, the American dream for youth is to make it on American Idol or be drafted into the NBA. For their parents, it’s to hit the lottery. Nice.

“One parting thought from George Carlin (I paraphrase): You know why they call it the American dream? Because you’d have to be f**king asleep to believe it.”

My dream now? Get the hell out of the American nightmare.

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» The link Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: The American Ream Posted by: makeadifference

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WE ALL KNOW THAT A DREAM IS NOT REAl, THANK YOU
[Report this comment]
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Oct 12, 2007 7:51 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's something we do that get's us through. Americans have done without before. We are smart, creative and rise to the occasion. We are not looking for a handout. Historically we become stuck in a set of circumstances. In time that changes. But we are now being treated badly by other people and by design. Our own leaders bully us. We have a president who just about tells us to kiss his ass. Percentage wise, success eludes too many people. And this is new to America. ANNA

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EMP
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Nnaahjwd on Oct 12, 2007 8:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"As long as people have no alternatives to choose from, they'll make their decisions based on ...."
The real problem is the Democratic Party. Progressives know what to expect from conservatives. They are a known, and "could" be dealt with. But who do we get to lead us? Hillary? Barack? They have the same allegiance to the Corporatocracy as GWB. Maybe they would not be as mindlessly stupid as the schrub, but would they really server the people better? So what are the alternatives, and where do they come from?

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Bootstraps BS
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Posted by: peacelf on Oct 12, 2007 8:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author is correct in saying upward mobility is a myth. I would add that this is not a recent phenomenon, but a myth perpetuated since the days of the Horatio Algers stories.

Upward mobility is a statistical impossibility for many reasons, including issues of inequality by race and/or gender, tracking students in schools according to "ability" or meritocratic approach, and the "hidden curriculum of work"--schools teach students differently based on class. For example, kids in poorer school districts will more often get boring, repetitive worksheets rather than creative and challenging materials, and critical thinking skills are rarely taught.

In other words, the class your born in is the class you'll stay in. Even as americans have rarely moved up the socio-economic ladder, the media perpetuates the myth by holding up examples of "success," rags to riches stories always fascinate americans. Oprah loves to perpetuate the myth, as if luck has nothing to do with it.

My point is this, that the current trend of seeing upward mobility as more and more difficult is just americans facing reality. And, with higher education becoming more expensive, loss of good paying industrial jobs, the outsourcing of professional jobs and the extortion of wealth from working americans in so many ways, downward mobility is more likely.

Peace

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» RE: Bootstraps BS Posted by: shanaza

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Memory Lane
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Posted by: makeadifference on Oct 12, 2007 9:12 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Tripping on memory lane: My uncle, a high school grad worked in a tire plant in Detroit, MI in the mid 50's - 60's. He had a beautiful brick house with garage and manicured lawn in St Claire Shores (nice area), owned a week-end cottage on a lake, owned nice cars, nice clothes, had a son and a NON-working housewife. He retired with a pension and they always had health care. That was middle class in America and that is gone.

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» That's true Posted by: snideelf
» RE: Memory Lane Posted by: richholland

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Might have been a Dream for some, Nightmare for others
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Posted by: common intelligence on Oct 12, 2007 9:56 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Working relentlessly throughout ones life time to hopefully live a better life (than our fears of a hopless future) was a trade off of health and a simple satisfing engagement of life.

Then as we become older our worn out bodies become aching with the abuse that our lifes choice bequithes us. Whether it's a bad back or over weight or frailty we look for hopeful comfort that only dwindles to stuggling perseverance.

Momentary joys of passing experiences of off-spring growing through our memories of childhood freedom fade with each passing day.

All that is left is the real struggle, hanging on to that we can not keep.

Being attached to the idea of a dream, marketed to us, by massive societal collective illusion is more harmful than the dream itself. A sense of well being is lost in the face of doing well.

Woe are the immigrants that yearn for new reality cloked in illusion. For they come to find their dream is better than their reality.

Woe are the indiginous, their reailty is stolen. Their dream is real.

Woe are the citizens for their reality is a life wasted and their dream is someone elses.

Reaching for the golden ring from our joyious carousel horse we fall off, never trusting the ride again.

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I know of a high-profile TECH company that keeps PERMATEMPS....
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Blue Heron on Oct 12, 2007 10:18 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
to avoid paying out benefits, etc. I will be happy to let anyone know which one it is if they're interested ;0) You may think their products are cool, but their treatment of employees most certainly is not.

Love to the people, and only the people!

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A slight contradiction here?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: defrag on Oct 12, 2007 10:20 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I find it easy to agree with this article, but isn't it a bit at odds with Mr. Holland's usual sunny view of immigration?

If Americans (born here) don't believe in the American Dream, is it really such a good thing if millions of economic refugees DO believe in it? Why is immigration (legal and illegal) at a historical high? Or is the contention that the so-called American Dream is only for immigrants?

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» How so? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: How so? Posted by: MarvinBeaty
» RE: How so? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: How so? Posted by: MarvinBeaty
» RE: How so? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: How so? Posted by: Doubtom
» Reality isn't so simple Posted by: Aposterioriperception

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'Merkaan Dream... dying to a whimpering hope
[Report this comment]
Posted by: DaBear on Oct 12, 2007 10:44 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Barbara Ehrenreich related on Bill Moyers' Journal a couple weeks back, that a worker once told her about her greatest hope in life is that she wanted to have a job that if you couldn't go in to work for one day it wouldn't mean you couldn't buy groceries the next day.

That's where a lot of us are right now. My daughter told me the other day in response to the same question, "I'd love a glass of milk. I miss milk." She's given up on the princess or famous actress thing.. now her dreams are about basic food stuffs. god bless 'Merkuh and the Chimp messiah....

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I've said it...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: bob t on Oct 12, 2007 12:23 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...before and I'll keep saying it until I drop dead. The phony pro-life/pro family agenda of the right wingers(Catholic Church, Catholic 'red' voters and evangelical fundies) is just a bunch of bullshit.

I am a Catholic and an independent voter, who will from now on always vote a straight democratic ticket because I can see what the Catholic Church and it's minions, and the right wingers conspiracy have done and will continue to do to America and the rest of the world.

None of these phonies from the Vatican on down are pro-life or pro-family. They are ONLY anti abortion and will stop at nothing to stop abortions, which they consider to be killing, no matter how many people THEY have to KILL to achieve their goal.

Their corrupt and criminal agenda began with Pope John Paul II and continues completely unabated and undiminished in any way, no matter what happens to America and the ME and the entire world. These people will continue to support the Republican Party, the party of GREED for money and endless political power, the party of dominion and domination over ALL other human beings.

For anyone who does not believe me just Google up Jazmina Borjoge and read about her death, done entirely at the hands of the Catholic Church, my church. And her story is just one story, their are many others like her. You can't blame the evangelical fundamentalists for her death. Her death was the sole responsibility of the Catholic Church and it's death agenda for anyone who does not follow strict Catholicism.

I will never support the Church's death agenda nor that of the Republican Party, nor that of the Bush family. And Jeb Bush (now a Catholic) is just waiting in the wings for his turn to further that death agenda.

The Catholic Church has learned nothing from WWII and it's support of Hitler and the Nazis which resulted in the death of six million Jews. Can we all say HOLOCAUST.

Another Holocaust is happening in the ME , at the hands of the Republican Party and the Bush oil family. All of whom are endorsed and supported by the Catholic Church. and the evangelical fundies.

Muslims are dying, Jews are dying and the ME is being destabilized (for oil , and no corporation or business is worth any of that ) and the result is that more people will die. How can anyone call that pro-life or pro-family. The American people are losing their rights and freedoms as our beloved US Constitution is being torn apart; and my church supports it all. Well I do not support my church nor any church or religion that supports any of that death/greed agenda. It's all nothing more than Catholic equivocation aka moral relativism.

Does anyone in his right mind, except the criminal and corrupt right wingers, really think Jesus Christ would support any of their death and greed agenda. Most atheists and agnostics know that all of this killing is wrong. I'll take an atheist for president before I'll accept a right wing religious person.

I'll follow that liberal Jewish guy who lived some two thousand years ago and do what HE said to do. The rest of the right wingers ought to go to hell, the hell of their own creation.

Jimmy Carter (an evangelical but not a fundie evangelical) we need you now more than ever. You sir, have the moral values that America and the world needs.

If Al Gore is enough like Mr. Carter than I'll take Mr. Gore for prez. Just maybe Gore will choose Dennis Kucinich for veep.

Kucinich may look like a little elf but he can roar when the need arises. Kucinich may be a Catholic who can stand up to the Pope, I think so, I hope so; if not he will not get my vote.

With Gore and Dennis K. America and the world will be on a far better path to the future.

The right wingers who brought us WWII are hell bent on bringing us WWIII.

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And maybe...
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Posted by: bob t on Oct 12, 2007 12:40 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...I'm wrong, but my guess is you are a 'predator' of some kind. And at whose expense did you exploit to do so well. Who did you step on to get where you are. And how many others suffered so you could get to your level of self satisfaction.

Are you a Republican and part of the 'good old boy network'. Who did you cheat along the way and how many taxes did you not pay to get where you are. Many of us can not live by such a credo of self interest just to get ahead. For most of us ethics and justice are a cental part of our lives and we cannot let go of those qualiies and values just to get ahead. Can you say the same?

Or just maybe you were damn lucky.

I hope I'm wrong about you, and if so I apologize. But your smugness is not becoming in any way. A little humility is a more endearing quality.

If you got where you are with FULL honesty and FULL integrity than I wish you well.

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» RE: And maybe... Posted by: redbird30328
» Charities..... Posted by: Cathyc

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Let's talk about hard work
[Report this comment]
Posted by: ReallyBearish on Oct 12, 2007 1:38 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And if that represents what the new Wall Street speculation class actually does. They borrow cheap money (or use your money) and make rigged bets that produce big gains. What do they actually contribute?

When they get into trouble, they go to Washington to get bailed out. This is Crony Capitalism (or Cowboy Socialism) at its most extreme.

Read the following from the Libertarian Right:

www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_05/duffy100907.html

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The little man sacrifices so the big man can have more.
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Posted by: risk on Oct 12, 2007 5:21 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The little man sacrifices so the big man can have more. No one's winning this game fair. Across the board and over all you have to have connections with the kiss a@$ Bush Admin to earn a living these days and that's like making a deal with Satan. He'll hurt you before he let you leave the family because not all who want out get out the way they came in. (With a pot to p** in and a window to throw it out of.)

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Top 1% in America own over 21% of the Wealth
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Posted by: sofla100 on Oct 12, 2007 5:35 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Today, in the Wall Street Journal, was an article indicating that just released IRS data shows the top 1% in income in America own over 21% of the total wealth. The bottom 50% own under 13% of the wealth. This clearly demonstrates the income disparity in America between rich and poor, one of the widest in the world. Meanwhile, the rich are lobbying and paying off politicians (campaign contributions) for more tax breaks, so they can get even richer. They lobby for the working man to get even less in terms of any type of mandatory health care and the right to unionize. They lobby for corporations and businesses to get special tax breaks and abatements. And, they (the rich) are winning. Meanwhile, the man on the bottom, he or she does not have a chance.

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Hoax
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Posted by: Jeanne on Oct 12, 2007 6:08 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The American Dream" has been a hoax for decades. A select, fortunate few "succeed" based on their hard work, timing, and huge doses of luck. An ever more select few succeed because of the celebrity they acquire. But the most-of-us are simply fortunate if we end our days retiring our mortgage, living on a small pension (or retirement plan), Social Security, and not falling prey to a lengthy, debilitating illness. Few of us are secure financially if illness of any member of the family becomes a factor in day-to-day life. Blessed are those who have family to rely on in their old age or in infirmity, because god knows you can't rely on government or society to come to your aid after your insurance company cleans you out.

American society is backward and primitive -- Darwinian in the worst sense of the phrase -- survival of the fittest. Not rich and got sick? You don't survive long. Filthy, stinking rich and got sick? You get the best medicine money can buy, and you survive as long as medically possible. So "fittest" = "richest." Works well, if you're rich.

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Americans Don't Believe in the American Dream?
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Posted by: opeluboy on Oct 12, 2007 6:12 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I do. That's why I wake up screaming every night.

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The American Experience
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Posted by: Betsy L. Angert on Oct 12, 2007 10:29 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dear Joshua Holland . . .

I thank you for this comprehensive missive. You touch on so much that concerns and disturbs me, I know not where to begin.

I concur; the American Dream has long been but a myth. Equal opportunities for all never truly existed in this country. Recent Supreme Court decisions, such as Parents Involved In Community Schools v. Seattle School District Number 1 et al. solidify the want for inequity. Caucasian American's in many regions prefer to remain separate and unequal. Sadly, lawfully, they will.
Supreme Court Rules; Brown Versus Board of Education Reversed

The free market structure also hinders our hope for equity and prosperity. If we are not born with a silver spoon in our mouths, we may never have the luxury afforded to those that are.
Capitalism; Competitive Markets Cut To The Core; Inequity Is Inevitable

The recent strikes remind us how little has changed in America. Laborers toil and then are treated as insignificant commodities. Investors are the priority.
United Auto Workers Are Everyman; The American Experience

The candidates do not differ, on health care or Iraq, with the exception of one. The media ensures Dennis Kucinich remains hidden. Apparently, the Insurers and Pharmaceutical companies that contribute to the campaigns of front-runners are threatened by a profound plan for Universal, Single Payer, Not For Profit Health Care.
Health Care in America; Uninsured, Underinsured, Universal Woes

The highlighted Presidential hopefuls say they cannot commit to exit Iraq now. Thus, the candidate that has a plan to do so is silenced.
Democrats Dance United; Kucinich Differs. Exit Iraq, 2007 or 2013

I invite your thoughts on my reflections. There is so much that is wrong with America. I thank you for the dismay you express aloud.

Betsy L. Angert
BeThink.org

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» RE: The American Experience Posted by: richholland

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Must be in the Minority
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Posted by: apophenia_monkey on Oct 12, 2007 11:51 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
me wife and me have no children other than rescue critters. on paper, we bring home roughly 200k. we're both masters degree holders, live in a suburb, and own our vehicles outright--saabs thanks you very much.

our credit card debt is moderate--mainly from college--and we consolidated our college loans. to be honest, i expect to die still owing my student loans.

neighbours for 3 doors down either direction, fairly same boat. we're in an older suburb of southern california.

the only thing i can figure is, most folks are wanting a larger nanny state extension from the rooseveldt.

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» RE: Must be in the Minority Posted by: asilsfable
» RE: Must be in the Minority Posted by: richholland
» RE: Must be in the Minority Posted by: Joshua Holland

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Help Yourselves First: Why Don’t Americans Plan Ahead? 1 of 2
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Posted by: Overburdened Planet on Oct 13, 2007 11:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nothing new in our myopia folks, but in this search for some form of utopia, who will suggest planning ahead—as individuals? Doesn’t recycling real issues without real solutions for how we might first change ourselves seem irresponsible? Wouldn’t we more likely be successful at first changing ourselves than successful trying to change others? Fox News tells us what to worry about or be angry with; is AlterNet doing something similar, or as useless? The consumptive process we call “civilization” rarely places blame for our problems onto ourselves, and to point out the faults of society and systems, without pointing the same finger back at ourselves, does no one justice and is self-defeating behavior.

A 30-year assault on organized labor…15 years of Democratic Party "triangulation’…” We’ve had how many years to plan ahead—as individuals? Posts here by some Europeans say American Leftists are distracted by issues of bias against each other when the real enemy is larger than us, or how we classify and compartmentalize by race, gender, creed, orientation. We’re focused on our rants against candidates controlled by, or partial to, corporations. The article reminds me of the idealized government control, taxation and representation in certain European nations, where citizens supposedly have guaranteed housing, healthcare, childcare, nursing care, education, jobs, and retirement. Detractors believe European benefits could be on the downside, which reminds me regardless of how you vote, where you live or where you move, if life ever improves, it has never improved for everyone everywhere, so can we focus on planning ahead—as individuals?

“…in America, hard, full-time work should lead to economic security for working families.” Will there ever again be enough jobs and resources to accomplish this, or how can this occur in the face of ever increasing populations, pollution and dwindling resources? Keep buying, for the economy, housing and automotive and stock market, for the children, for our future, all while getting more obese, in debt, keep refinancing, and consolidating those debts. And the top two magazines by circulation in this country are put out by AARP. AlterNet has talked about the elderly being forced to stay in the workforce longer, but AARP tells readers we’re living longer and retirees want to remain productive. Is it all in how media spins the facts? If AlterNet is being realistic, why little mention of our own faults, how to change ourselves, and plan ahead—as individuals? We weren’t taught to live right by others, in the economic/resource sense. Who will?

Working America doesn't buy the idea that these are the "natural" consequences of economic modernization -- innate rules of an economy created by God and untouchable by man -- and they don't believe that they're to blame for their eroding economic security. “And Jesus will arrive when the last tree falls” (James Watt, Secretary of the Interior under Reagan) and the meek shall inherit the earth, and so on. How misguided and delusional are we? We blame corporations and so many other things for our problems, but how many of you invest in the stock market? Publicly owned companies support the stockholder, not the employee. Remember Circuit City’s recent tactic of laying off only to rehire at lower wages? Like Wal-Mart, someone is still shopping there, so who’s responsible for the mess we’re in? And the final assessment: “…not being given a real choice in terms of economic models [with] unflagging bipartisan support…[a]s long as people have no alternatives to choose from, they'll make their decisions based on which candidates look better or worship at the same church or hate the same people they do or would be fun to share a beer with.“ CONT'D

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Help Yourselves First: Why Don’t Americans Plan Ahead? 2 of 2
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Posted by: Overburdened Planet on Oct 13, 2007 11:22 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some of you are still hoping Gore will run for president, but he’s just another spin doctor emeritus with enough money to buy and sell you in carbon credits, not that most of us can afford to trade, but we all negatively contribute. Michael Moore, severely obese Manhattanite, Ralph Nader, anti-corporation stockholder; what do you really know about these people? They talk your language, voice your concerns, but they got rich doing it, not a problem per say, as your contributions put them where they are. How many on either side of any issue, political, religious, social, if currently poor, would switch sides if conditional upon receiving a large sum of money? Or, how many have decided there are alternatives and learn from lesser-advantaged cultures, because they have fewer choices than we do? Who are we if we complain about losing all the benefits listed in the article when others have so little? Where are the reminders to live with less, spend less, pay off debts, live communally (in a commune, share living space/resources/labor/expenses), buy and consume locally whenever possible, boycott products/services most harmful/supportive of harmful practices, invest in lowest risk funds or not at all, adopt vs. procreate? Even Barbara Ehrenreich’s book, “Nickled and Dimed” which only had four examples of her trying to live on minimum wage, didn’t once mention the possible solution of communal housing. I’ve lived in non-relative communal households three times in my life, with five to eight people to a house. You do what you can, when you need to, but we don’t even hold these concepts as values.

Do you know the story behind the products you buy? What I call its “Blood Trail”? Wasn’t it AlterNet that told us certain metals in our computers and cell phones come from terrible labor conditions in Africa (think of all the clothing, food and other goods we buy, made in poorer countries). Think about all the energy and water required to bring fast and frozen food to our mouths, in terms of production and transportation, while billions of people don’t have even the most basic of needs. Continue to consume with little thought except to voice your concerns about benefits some of us used to have. And does anyone think returning to that era wouldn’t also negatively impact the rest of the world, so how to fix our problems and theirs, no one excluded, exactly?

Of course I’m far from perfect, but I don’t have kids, so any lack of energy/resource savings you may point out, at least I didn’t bring another person into this world, especially an American, as we consume and waste more than most nations. To think even after connecting the dots for everyone, there will still be those who respond emotionally, saying I’m trying to force my opinions onto others, telling them how to live. Well, with the increases, we will stand to lose even more and we can’t have it all when others have so little. People in America think they have choices, the real choice is to live with less, plan ahead, save and be thankful if and when you find you did the right thing by planning ahead. Of course there’s no perfect plan, even the rich have problems. I grow weary reading the many complaints and in-fighting when so few people focus on reducing the population, and because it doesn’t seem to be a problem for most, that in and of itself should tell you it will be a problem soon enough.

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~~~S.O.S.~~~MayDay***
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Posted by: CaptChurch on Oct 13, 2007 11:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To: ALL you know.......
~~~S.O.S.~~~MayDay***
~~~"Suicidal thoughts, up since Katrina, PTSD survey says........"
------->>>"Suicide rate among girls skyrockets 76%, says Centers for Disease Control & Prevention"means, see to it that your neighbor has it just as good as you do, self-lessly!~~~"Who is my neighbor?"....EveryOne on the planet!
"LOVE is the Real Thing" on:
http://CaptainChurch.proboards57.com
http://groups.google.com/group/TeenAnswers
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BestTeenAnswers
http://blogs.albawaba.com/captainchurch
--->>>Also, the solution to impulsive depression/suicide:::
SUICIDE VACCINE is on these sites...it works!!!
Jim Sorrell [CaptainChurch]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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~~~S.O.S.~~~MayDay***
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Posted by: CaptChurch on Oct 13, 2007 11:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To: ALL you know.......
~~~S.O.S.~~~MayDay***
~~~"Suicidal thoughts, up since Katrina, PTSD survey says........"
------->>>"Suicide rate among girls skyrockets 76%, says Centers for Disease Control & Prevention"means, see to it that your neighbor has it just as good as you do, self-lessly!~~~"Who is my neighbor?"....EveryOne on the planet!
"LOVE is the Real Thing" on:
http://CaptainChurch.proboards57.com
http://groups.google.com/group/TeenAnswers
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BestTeenAnswers
http://blogs.albawaba.com/captainchurch
--->>>Also, the solution to impulsive depression/suicide:::
SUICIDE VACCINE is on these sites...it works!!!
Jim Sorrell [CaptainChurch]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Tucker1
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Posted by: earl on Oct 13, 2007 12:56 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And our younger corporate sheep are following along the meadow to whatever they're told is best for them, brainwashed into the flow, but the meadow is fenced in.

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Disbelief in the American Dream is easy to explain. The American Dream no longer exists.
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Posted by: yellow on Oct 13, 2007 2:39 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Class boundaries harden every year. Those born in the bottom half of US society tend to stay there whereas forty years ago social mobility was the norm. I blame the Reagan Revolution and neo-liberal capitalism. The very middle class that helped the Republicans to power two and a half decades ago and stubbornly kept them in power through the polls got utterly crushed by an economic agenda they didn't really see coming!!

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Truth be told!
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Posted by: Jackfruit on Oct 13, 2007 3:23 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem with you native born Americans is that you aren't satisfied of what life has given you.
Many 3rd World immigrants come to this country ( be it legally or illegally) because they believe in the American Dream. Ever lived in Burma, Zimbabwe, or North Korea?
Why do you think many displaced people around the world have fled their native countries such as Burma, Zimbabwe, or North Korea and sought better living here in the US or other western democratic countires? You think life here in the US is bad? Think about what took place in the past: Cambodia, where Pol Pott killed over a million of its own citizens, Mr. Marcos of the Phillippines crushing democartic reforms. Suharto( Indonesia), Saddam Hussien( Iraq), Robert Mugabe ( Zimbabwe), and now BURMA where Aung Sung Soo Kyi is under house arrest!
These places have been ruled by dictators!
You people ( Americans) don't know what you have got! All you do is complain. Get a life and see what is taking place around the world and connect history as well! Yet, here you are....crying about losing the American dream!

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» RE: Truth be told! Posted by: Spot
» RE: Truth be told! Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Truth be told! Posted by: Jackfruit
» RE: Truth be told! Posted by: Jackfruit
» RE: Truth be told! Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Truth be told! Posted by: Jackfruit

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It's time for a showdown between left and right
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Posted by: eaanders on Oct 14, 2007 10:56 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The bottom line is that the right wants to use the government as an authoritarian means to control the behavior of its people and the rest of the world, while allowing the free market to deliver economic benefits to whoever can scheme to get them, letting individuals sink or swim on their merits. The left wants to let individuals control their personal behavior and believes the government should be used to equalize economic benefits on a scale that provides an incentive to produce, but ensures a dignified existence for everyone. Both want a safety net for the impaired who can’t work, through no fault of their own.

The right advocates what they really believe, basically get government out of everything, and when they achieve power they act to implement it. The left does not. They don’t advocate direct government intervention and redistribution of income. Instead they want to continue a hodge-podge of subsidies, tax gimmicks and free market incentives that just muddy the water. On the issue of control of individual behavior and foreign policy the left and right will just have to continue advocating their positions. But on economic and taxation issues there is much to be gained by a change in the left’s approach.

The left should advocate scrapping all tax deductions, exemptions, subsidies, and loopholes, and replace them with steeply progressive income tax with a substantial earned income tax credit where everyone who is willing to work is guaranteed a living wage, not a poverty wage. They should advocate getting rid of all current directed welfare programs and replace them with direct subsidies to the incapacitated and impaired only. Doing this will eliminate the influence of special interests on government and get us back to being a society for all people as we were in the fifties.

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The American Dream is Alive!
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Posted by: Jackfruit on Oct 14, 2007 6:41 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mr. Holland, read my responce( Re: Truth be told). Like I have stated: You responce runs hollow to mine. I personally experienced and suffered from a right wing dictator. Coming to this lovely country of yours many years ago have help restored my life back and am grateful to the America for what it has given me and my family!

Many Burmese citizens are now suffering and are being tortured, as is Aung Sung Soo Kyi!
When you see refugees coming from Burma, North Korea, Zimbabwe and living in the US , they are living the American dream. Your poverty here compared to 3rd world countries is nothing compared to Southeast Asian countries like Philippines, Indonesia, Vietnam. Here the US government provides WIC for mothers who are pregnant and state governments provides health care to the poor. None of those exist in other countries I have mentioned.

Be grateful and count your blessings to what you have! Many others around the 3rd world do not have have what your( US) government provides!!! Those countries I have mentioned like Burma, North Korea, and Zimbabwe are under dictatorship! I know how they are living because I have been thru it ( dictatorship).

And after been thru hell here on earth under a ruthless dictator, I am glad for what the US have provided me and my family with. The American dream is alive!!!

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» RE: The American Dream is Alive! Posted by: ConnecttheDots

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Dream On...
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Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com on Oct 17, 2007 10:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's hard for Americans to find an ounce of good news during these tough times.
For example, I went shopping at a grocery store last week in Los Angeles and I screamed loudly to the cashier about a loaf of bread (Home Pride) costing nearly $4 and a gallon of milk at the same price. Don't get me wrong: I did not direct my anger at her.
I know there has been a drought in the nation's breadbasket (Minnesota, North Dakota) earlier this year and the cost to process the various grains to make bread is passed on to us, the consumers.
Also in L.A today a paper displayed photos of foreclosed homes ripe for the picking. Even though they may seem "affordable", we have to have two-TWO-maybe even THREE jobs to buy a house. Are we willing to do that and make sacrifices along the way? We're living on the precipice. Don't buy that Lexus when your kids need school supplies and clothes.
A generation ago it was possible for a person to buy a home with one job. But that's no longer the case. I don't know how we do it, go to Vegas or to a riverboat along the Mississippi and gamble to get the money, max out credit cards or something or ask a family member for a loan that we can't repay.
I also wonder about future college grads and the job market: will there be anything promising for them? I'm not putting the blame on either party. It's our fault things are the way they are in America. We've blown enormous suns of dollars and resources on follies such as war, weapons and other non-consumable items that negate social advancement.
Today we're living in cruel times. No one in power has offered any solutions to relieve the pressure families and workers face. Their answer? Homeland Security and to borrow a line from an old Pink Floyd song-"keep on digging!"
Companies try to sell us a vision, an idea on a dream, even presidents that anything is possible if you dream. It's hard to dream of a better life when we have a sieve-like safety net, i.e., welfare or unemployment benefits and the relentless assault on unions only gives us a temporary reprieve from eceonomic disaster.
Therefore, is the "dream" still attainable? Dream on.

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Agreed!
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Posted by: J_Mo on Oct 18, 2007 12:48 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hear hear!

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On Life Support
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Oct 12, 2007 12:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Until we bring an end to corporate person-hood we will never undo all of the tremendous damage done to our nation the last 25-30 years. Even then the road will be tough. I really see no civil (political) resolution of significance coming until we get the corporate sharks and lobbyist parasites out of the temple of government.

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» The reality is .... Posted by: skoog5600
» RE: The reality is .... Posted by: richholland
» RE: The reality is .... Posted by: redbird30328
» Hey RedBird Posted by: Aimleft
» RE: The reality is .... Posted by: drcyflowers
» RE: The reality is .... Posted by: ordaj
» RE: The reality is .... Posted by: bsdone
» RE: The reality is .... Posted by: Joseph4408

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This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.

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True - times have changed
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Posted by: redbird30328 on Oct 12, 2007 3:26 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I see no reason why the "Government" should guarantee that people should be able to sleep walk through high school, join the UAW, perform incompetently when they actually work, and still make $50K + per year with 4 weeks paid vacation just because their parents did. That arbitrage is over. Good riddance!

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» RE: True - times have changed Posted by: richholland
» RE: True - times have changed Posted by: redbird30328
» RE: True - times have changed Posted by: richholland
» RE: True - times have changed Posted by: redbird30328
» RE: True - times have changed Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: True - times have changed Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: True - times have changed Posted by: mnascimento
» RE: True - times have changed Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: True - times have changed Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: True - times have changed Posted by: newtype_alpha
» RE: Generalize much? Posted by: duck-lady
» RE: Generalize much? Posted by: redbird30328
» RE: Generalize much? Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Generalize much? Posted by: redbird30328
» Love those dinosaurs! Posted by: hagwind
» one of life's little lessons Posted by: mdruss42
» Speaking of arbitrage... Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle

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We need radical change in Washington
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Posted by: Morgaine Swann on Oct 12, 2007 4:33 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The fact is that the people supposedly elected to represent us are just out for themselves. Government is no longer a cooperative system that provides for the welfare of the people - it's a way for the wealthy to siphon off the national treasury. When our economy does collapse, the very wealthy will be fine, and the rest of us will get to live like serfs.

Something needs to shake this govenment up, to get the career politicians out of there and get us back on track. We need public campaign financing so regular people can run for office. We need to get the profit out of health care and stop tying it to employment. If people are losing their homes, dying from treatable illnesses and failing to get a good education, that creates a poor climate for everyone in the country. There is a class system in America and it's getting worse. Soon there will only be the very wealthy and the very poor. We have to stop moving our money upward, and see that everyone has a solid base to live on.

Companies shouldn't be allowed to build their fortunes on the backs of poorly paid American workers, and then turn around and move the company off-shore. Corporations exist only because we allow them to - they have a responsibility to give back to the communities that supported them. The era of corporate personhood has to end now. We can't afford to let business run just by the bottom line. There has to be accountability to the workers, too.

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Dream
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Posted by: ReverendMarkCom on Oct 12, 2007 5:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's the most important word in this article. Dream.

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» Wake-up is what is important! Posted by: common intelligence
» "Most" surveys? No. Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Opps. I meant 1960, of course. Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: "Most" surveys? No. Posted by: hagwind
» RE: "Most" surveys? No. Posted by: Joshua Holland

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$100K and below is poor
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Posted by: Trazom on Oct 12, 2007 5:37 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let me reiterate - $100K is nothing nowadays, especially in some of the higher priced areas of the country. In fact, I would say that anything less than $150K could be considered poor, maybe even higher than that.

I know, because I make somewhat less than $100k gross, but struggle financially, mostly due to insanely high property taxes and cost of food.

The sick thing is that under IRS guidelines, more and more people making $100K will fall victim to the alternative minimum tax this year, short of another bandaid from Congress (they refuse to look at the issue apparently). So even though you can't pay your bills, the Feds consider you rich, and tax you at much higher rates. How's that for a fair system.

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» RE: $100K and below is poor Posted by: richholland
» RE: $100K and below is poor Posted by: Trazom
» RE: $100K and below is poor Posted by: richholland
» RE: $100K and below is poor Posted by: sausage
» RE: $100K and below is poor Posted by: Aimleft
» RE: $100K and below is poor Posted by: JERSEYDAN
» RE: $100K and below is poor Posted by: Democratic Socialist
» RE: $100K and below is poor Posted by: JERSEYDAN
» RE: $100K and below is poor Posted by: Trazom

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Excellent article
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Posted by: mnascimento on Oct 12, 2007 5:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article articulates all that I observe and am experiencing.

I expect that we will reach a tipping point in the near future.
When those who labor in vain, and feel hopeless about their prospects, will revolt.

Homeland Security is an elite preparation for containing the anarchy of the disillusioned masses in America.

History should have taught us by now, that those who can't sit at the table, will inevitably, kick it over.

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» RE: xcellent article Posted by: djnoll
» RE: xcellent article Posted by: scheherezade
» RE: xcellent article Posted by: richholland
» RE: xcellent article Posted by: mnascimento
» RE: xcellent article Posted by: lenox
» RE: xcellent article Posted by: yesman

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I'm living the dream
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Posted by: Nugeman on Oct 12, 2007 6:39 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The United States of America is still the greatest country.

I dropped out of high school in 1972. Got a job, worked 3 years, decided I could do more in this land of opportunity. Got my GED, enrolled in night school. Got a 2 year Associates Degree. Got a career. I saw my income rise steadily over the years. Got married, put 2 kids thru college. Never collected a dime of taxpayer money. Have a 4 bedroom house in the suburbs and a nice nest egg for retirement in 12 years. My investments are doing fantastic in the growing economy. The Bush tax cuts have given even me, more of my money to work with. My wife and I aren't rich, but lead a comfortable life with a combined $90,000 annual income.

Is this a great country or what. I did it all the old fashioned way. I earned it.

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» Repo man Posted by: ScottP
» RE: I'm living the dream Posted by: richholland
» RE: I'm living the dream Posted by: redbird30328
» RE: I'm living the dream Posted by: coldbliss
» "Their own choices" lol Posted by: newtype_alpha
» RE: I'm living the dream Posted by: newtype_alpha
» Do you work for Blackwater? Posted by: makeadifference
» RE: I'm living the dream Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: I'm living the dream Posted by: VZEQICVA
» Seriously doubt your tax break Posted by: snideelf
» RE: I'm living the dream Posted by: melloe

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If it's a dream, then it cannot exist in reality.
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Posted by: maxpayne on Oct 12, 2007 6:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That might have been what Martin Luther said in his "I have a Dream" speech. Unfortunately, if that's the case, he correctly predicted that what he dreamed of would never happen.

And now, we return you to REALITY IN HELL !

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The American Ream
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Posted by: LMNOP on Oct 12, 2007 6:52 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nice article, Joshua. Spot on.

Here’s something I posted under the article, “Is the American Dream a Delusion? By Courtney E. Martin, AlterNet. October 3, 2006.”, which can be found HERE:

“Interestingly, the author never states explicitly what ‘The American Dream’ is or was. All that one can infer from the piece is the vague notion of equal economic opportunity. Is it the dream *about* America by a foreigner dreaming to escape the chains of poverty and some oppressive class structure elsewhere and come to America for an education or a job? Or is it a dream *of* Americans? And if the latter, which of several is it? Is it the dream to own a home and raise a family on the income of a typical wage earner, or the one about ones kids having it better than themselves.

“Perhaps there are other American dreams that I’m forgetting. Oh yeah, that anyone can become president. And that anyone can become independently wealthy. There must be a half dozen more floating around. I think that the American middle class of Ritchie Cunningham’s or Beaver Cleaver’s time is the embodiment of some of the dreams, and the American upper class a la Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous is the embodiment of another whole set of dreams.

“Perhaps I’m being picky thinking that someone should be able to define THE American dream unambiguously. And perhaps it’s all of these, that is, there is no American dream per se, just a vague notion of opportunity whether that be social opportunity for the lower classes or economic opportunity.

“Also interesting is that, as the author implies, the dream is probably over. America as I knew it is a dream. Maybe that’s the new American dream: a return to normalcy and a restoration of the Constitution and the rule of law rather than evolving into an overt autocracy.

“Me? I dream of finding a better home elsewhere. I have worked hard and played by the rules all of my life, and I’ve had enough of the dream. The playing field is not level and the rules are unfair. I’m an American physician, and I can tell you, virtually ALL of us regret our career choices and the ugly environment that government and business have created for us and our patients, one minimally related to health care but ideal for insurers and the suppliers of pharmaceuticals and other medical technology.

“Today, the American dream for youth is to make it on American Idol or be drafted into the NBA. For their parents, it’s to hit the lottery. Nice.

“One parting thought from George Carlin (I paraphrase): You know why they call it the American dream? Because you’d have to be f**king asleep to believe it.”

My dream now? Get the hell out of the American nightmare.

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» The link Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: The American Ream Posted by: makeadifference

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WE ALL KNOW THAT A DREAM IS NOT REAl, THANK YOU
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Oct 12, 2007 7:51 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's something we do that get's us through. Americans have done without before. We are smart, creative and rise to the occasion. We are not looking for a handout. Historically we become stuck in a set of circumstances. In time that changes. But we are now being treated badly by other people and by design. Our own leaders bully us. We have a president who just about tells us to kiss his ass. Percentage wise, success eludes too many people. And this is new to America. ANNA

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EMP
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Posted by: Nnaahjwd on Oct 12, 2007 8:01 AM   
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"As long as people have no alternatives to choose from, they'll make their decisions based on ...."
The real problem is the Democratic Party. Progressives know what to expect from conservatives. They are a known, and "could" be dealt with. But who do we get to lead us? Hillary? Barack? They have the same allegiance to the Corporatocracy as GWB. Maybe they would not be as mindlessly stupid as the schrub, but would they really server the people better? So what are the alternatives, and where do they come from?

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Bootstraps BS
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Posted by: peacelf on Oct 12, 2007 8:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author is correct in saying upward mobility is a myth. I would add that this is not a recent phenomenon, but a myth perpetuated since the days of the Horatio Algers stories.

Upward mobility is a statistical impossibility for many reasons, including issues of inequality by race and/or gender, tracking students in schools according to "ability" or meritocratic approach, and the "hidden curriculum of work"--schools teach students differently based on class. For example, kids in poorer school districts will more often get boring, repetitive worksheets rather than creative and challenging materials, and critical thinking skills are rarely taught.

In other words, the class your born in is the class you'll stay in. Even as americans have rarely moved up the socio-economic ladder, the media perpetuates the myth by holding up examples of "success," rags to riches stories always fascinate americans. Oprah loves to perpetuate the myth, as if luck has nothing to do with it.

My point is this, that the current trend of seeing upward mobility as more and more difficult is just americans facing reality. And, with higher education becoming more expensive, loss of good paying industrial jobs, the outsourcing of professional jobs and the extortion of wealth from working americans in so many ways, downward mobility is more likely.

Peace

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» RE: Bootstraps BS Posted by: shanaza

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Memory Lane
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Posted by: makeadifference on Oct 12, 2007 9:12 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Tripping on memory lane: My uncle, a high school grad worked in a tire plant in Detroit, MI in the mid 50's - 60's. He had a beautiful brick house with garage and manicured lawn in St Claire Shores (nice area), owned a week-end cottage on a lake, owned nice cars, nice clothes, had a son and a NON-working housewife. He retired with a pension and they always had health care. That was middle class in America and that is gone.

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» That's true Posted by: snideelf
» RE: Memory Lane Posted by: richholland

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Might have been a Dream for some, Nightmare for others
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Posted by: common intelligence on Oct 12, 2007 9:56 AM   
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Working relentlessly throughout ones life time to hopefully live a better life (than our fears of a hopless future) was a trade off of health and a simple satisfing engagement of life.

Then as we become older our worn out bodies become aching with the abuse that our lifes choice bequithes us. Whether it's a bad back or over weight or frailty we look for hopeful comfort that only dwindles to stuggling perseverance.

Momentary joys of passing experiences of off-spring growing through our memories of childhood freedom fade with each passing day.

All that is left is the real struggle, hanging on to that we can not keep.

Being attached to the idea of a dream, marketed to us, by massive societal collective illusion is more harmful than the dream itself. A sense of well being is lost in the face of doing well.

Woe are the immigrants that yearn for new reality cloked in illusion. For they come to find their dream is better than their reality.

Woe are the indiginous, their reailty is stolen. Their dream is real.

Woe are the citizens for their reality is a life wasted and their dream is someone elses.

Reaching for the golden ring from our joyious carousel horse we fall off, never trusting the ride again.

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I know of a high-profile TECH company that keeps PERMATEMPS....
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Posted by: Blue Heron on Oct 12, 2007 10:18 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
to avoid paying out benefits, etc. I will be happy to let anyone know which one it is if they're interested ;0) You may think their products are cool, but their treatment of employees most certainly is not.

Love to the people, and only the people!

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A slight contradiction here?
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Posted by: defrag on Oct 12, 2007 10:20 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I find it easy to agree with this article, but isn't it a bit at odds with Mr. Holland's usual sunny view of immigration?

If Americans (born here) don't believe in the American Dream, is it really such a good thing if millions of economic refugees DO believe in it? Why is immigration (legal and illegal) at a historical high? Or is the contention that the so-called American Dream is only for immigrants?

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» How so? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: How so? Posted by: MarvinBeaty
» RE: How so? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: How so? Posted by: MarvinBeaty
» RE: How so? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: How so? Posted by: Doubtom
» Reality isn't so simple Posted by: Aposterioriperception

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'Merkaan Dream... dying to a whimpering hope
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Posted by: DaBear on Oct 12, 2007 10:44 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Barbara Ehrenreich related on Bill Moyers' Journal a couple weeks back, that a worker once told her about her greatest hope in life is that she wanted to have a job that if you couldn't go in to work for one day it wouldn't mean you couldn't buy groceries the next day.

That's where a lot of us are right now. My daughter told me the other day in response to the same question, "I'd love a glass of milk. I miss milk." She's given up on the princess or famous actress thing.. now her dreams are about basic food stuffs. god bless 'Merkuh and the Chimp messiah....

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I've said it...
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Posted by: bob t on Oct 12, 2007 12:23 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...before and I'll keep saying it until I drop dead. The phony pro-life/pro family agenda of the right wingers(Catholic Church, Catholic 'red' voters and evangelical fundies) is just a bunch of bullshit.

I am a Catholic and an independent voter, who will from now on always vote a straight democratic ticket because I can see what the Catholic Church and it's minions, and the right wingers conspiracy have done and will continue to do to America and the rest of the world.

None of these phonies from the Vatican on down are pro-life or pro-family. They are ONLY anti abortion and will stop at nothing to stop abortions, which they consider to be killing, no matter how many people THEY have to KILL to achieve their goal.

Their corrupt and criminal agenda began with Pope John Paul II and continues completely unabated and undiminished in any way, no matter what happens to America and the ME and the entire world. These people will continue to support the Republican Party, the party of GREED for money and endless political power, the party of dominion and domination over ALL other human beings.

For anyone who does not believe me just Google up Jazmina Borjoge and read about her death, done entirely at the hands of the Catholic Church, my church. And her story is just one story, their are many others like her. You can't blame the evangelical fundamentalists for her death. Her death was the sole responsibility of the Catholic Church and it's death agenda for anyone who does not follow strict Catholicism.

I will never support the Church's death agenda nor that of the Republican Party, nor that of the Bush family. And Jeb Bush (now a Catholic) is just waiting in the wings for his turn to further that death agenda.

The Catholic Church has learned nothing from WWII and it's support of Hitler and the Nazis which resulted in the death of six million Jews. Can we all say HOLOCAUST.

Another Holocaust is happening in the ME , at the hands of the Republican Party and the Bush oil family. All of whom are endorsed and supported by the Catholic Church. and the evangelical fundies.

Muslims are dying, Jews are dying and the ME is being destabilized (for oil , and no corporation or business is worth any of that ) and the result is that more people will die. How can anyone call that pro-life or pro-family. The American people are losing their rights and freedoms as our beloved US Constitution is being torn apart; and my church supports it all. Well I do not support my church nor any church or religion that supports any of that death/greed agenda. It's all nothing more than Catholic equivocation aka moral relativism.

Does anyone in his right mind, except the criminal and corrupt right wingers, really think Jesus Christ would support any of their death and greed agenda. Most atheists and agnostics know that all of this killing is wrong. I'll take an atheist for president before I'll accept a right wing religious person.

I'll follow that liberal Jewish guy who lived some two thousand years ago and do what HE said to do. The rest of the right wingers ought to go to hell, the hell of their own creation.

Jimmy Carter (an evangelical but not a fundie evangelical) we need you now more than ever. You sir, have the moral values that America and the world needs.

If Al Gore is enough like Mr. Carter than I'll take Mr. Gore for prez. Just maybe Gore will choose Dennis Kucinich for veep.

Kucinich may look like a little elf but he can roar when the need arises. Kucinich may be a Catholic who can stand up to the Pope, I think so, I hope so; if not he will not get my vote.

With Gore and Dennis K. America and the world will be on a far better path to the future.

The right wingers who brought us WWII are hell bent on bringing us WWIII.

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And maybe...
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Posted by: bob t on Oct 12, 2007 12:40 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...I'm wrong, but my guess is you are a 'predator' of some kind. And at whose expense did you exploit to do so well. Who did you step on to get where you are. And how many others suffered so you could get to your level of self satisfaction.

Are you a Republican and part of the 'good old boy network'. Who did you cheat along the way and how many taxes did you not pay to get where you are. Many of us can not live by such a credo of self interest just to get ahead. For most of us ethics and justice are a cental part of our lives and we cannot let go of those qualiies and values just to get ahead. Can you say the same?

Or just maybe you were damn lucky.

I hope I'm wrong about you, and if so I apologize. But your smugness is not becoming in any way. A little humility is a more endearing quality.

If you got where you are with FULL honesty and FULL integrity than I wish you well.

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» RE: And maybe... Posted by: redbird30328
» Charities..... Posted by: Cathyc

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Let's talk about hard work
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Posted by: ReallyBearish on Oct 12, 2007 1:38 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And if that represents what the new Wall Street speculation class actually does. They borrow cheap money (or use your money) and make rigged bets that produce big gains. What do they actually contribute?

When they get into trouble, they go to Washington to get bailed out. This is Crony Capitalism (or Cowboy Socialism) at its most extreme.

Read the following from the Libertarian Right:

www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_05/duffy100907.html

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The little man sacrifices so the big man can have more.
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Posted by: risk on Oct 12, 2007 5:21 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The little man sacrifices so the big man can have more. No one's winning this game fair. Across the board and over all you have to have connections with the kiss a@$ Bush Admin to earn a living these days and that's like making a deal with Satan. He'll hurt you before he let you leave the family because not all who want out get out the way they came in. (With a pot to p** in and a window to throw it out of.)

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Top 1% in America own over 21% of the Wealth
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Posted by: sofla100 on Oct 12, 2007 5:35 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Today, in the Wall Street Journal, was an article indicating that just released IRS data shows the top 1% in income in America own over 21% of the total wealth. The bottom 50% own under 13% of the wealth. This clearly demonstrates the income disparity in America between rich and poor, one of the widest in the world. Meanwhile, the rich are lobbying and paying off politicians (campaign contributions) for more tax breaks, so they can get even richer. They lobby for the working man to get even less in terms of any type of mandatory health care and the right to unionize. They lobby for corporations and businesses to get special tax breaks and abatements. And, they (the rich) are winning. Meanwhile, the man on the bottom, he or she does not have a chance.

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Hoax
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Posted by: Jeanne on Oct 12, 2007 6:08 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The American Dream" has been a hoax for decades. A select, fortunate few "succeed" based on their hard work, timing, and huge doses of luck. An ever more select few succeed because of the celebrity they acquire. But the most-of-us are simply fortunate if we end our days retiring our mortgage, living on a small pension (or retirement plan), Social Security, and not falling prey to a lengthy, debilitating illness. Few of us are secure financially if illness of any member of the family becomes a factor in day-to-day life. Blessed are those who have family to rely on in their old age or in infirmity, because god knows you can't rely on government or society to come to your aid after your insurance company cleans you out.

American society is backward and primitive -- Darwinian in the worst sense of the phrase -- survival of the fittest. Not rich and got sick? You don't survive long. Filthy, stinking rich and got sick? You get the best medicine money can buy, and you survive as long as medically possible. So "fittest" = "richest." Works well, if you're rich.

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Americans Don't Believe in the American Dream?
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Posted by: opeluboy on Oct 12, 2007 6:12 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I do. That's why I wake up screaming every night.

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The American Experience
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Posted by: Betsy L. Angert on Oct 12, 2007 10:29 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dear Joshua Holland . . .

I thank you for this comprehensive missive. You touch on so much that concerns and disturbs me, I know not where to begin.

I concur; the American Dream has long been but a myth. Equal opportunities for all never truly existed in this country. Recent Supreme Court decisions, such as Parents Involved In Community Schools v. Seattle School District Number 1 et al. solidify the want for inequity. Caucasian American's in many regions prefer to remain separate and unequal. Sadly, lawfully, they will.
Supreme Court Rules; Brown Versus Board of Education Reversed

The free market structure also hinders our hope for equity and prosperity. If we are not born with a silver spoon in our mouths, we may never have the luxury afforded to those that are.
Capitalism; Competitive Markets Cut To The Core; Inequity Is Inevitable

The recent strikes remind us how little has changed in America. Laborers toil and then are treated as insignificant commodities. Investors are the priority.
United Auto Workers Are Everyman; The American Experience

The candidates do not differ, on health care or Iraq, with the exception of one. The media ensures Dennis Kucinich remains hidden. Apparently, the Insurers and Pharmaceutical companies that contribute to the campaigns of front-runners are threatened by a profound plan for Universal, Single Payer, Not For Profit Health Care.
Health Care in America; Uninsured, Underinsured, Universal Woes

The highlighted Presidential hopefuls say they cannot commit to exit Iraq now. Thus, the candidate that has a plan to do so is silenced.
Democrats Dance United; Kucinich Differs. Exit Iraq, 2007 or 2013

I invite your thoughts on my reflections. There is so much that is wrong with America. I thank you for the dismay you express aloud.

Betsy L. Angert
BeThink.org

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» RE: The American Experience Posted by: richholland

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Must be in the Minority
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Posted by: apophenia_monkey on Oct 12, 2007 11:51 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
me wife and me have no children other than rescue critters. on paper, we bring home roughly 200k. we're both masters degree holders, live in a suburb, and own our vehicles outright--saabs thanks you very much.

our credit card debt is moderate--mainly from college--and we consolidated our college loans. to be honest, i expect to die still owing my student loans.

neighbours for 3 doors down either direction, fairly same boat. we're in an older suburb of southern california.

the only thing i can figure is, most folks are wanting a larger nanny state extension from the rooseveldt.

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» RE: Must be in the Minority Posted by: asilsfable
» RE: Must be in the Minority Posted by: richholland
» RE: Must be in the Minority Posted by: Joshua Holland

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Help Yourselves First: Why Don’t Americans Plan Ahead? 1 of 2
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Posted by: Overburdened Planet on Oct 13, 2007 11:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nothing new in our myopia folks, but in this search for some form of utopia, who will suggest planning ahead—as individuals? Doesn’t recycling real issues without real solutions for how we might first change ourselves seem irresponsible? Wouldn’t we more likely be successful at first changing ourselves than successful trying to change others? Fox News tells us what to worry about or be angry with; is AlterNet doing something similar, or as useless? The consumptive process we call “civilization” rarely places blame for our problems onto ourselves, and to point out the faults of society and systems, without pointing the same finger back at ourselves, does no one justice and is self-defeating behavior.

A 30-year assault on organized labor…15 years of Democratic Party "triangulation’…” We’ve had how many years to plan ahead—as individuals? Posts here by some Europeans say American Leftists are distracted by issues of bias against each other when the real enemy is larger than us, or how we classify and compartmentalize by race, gender, creed, orientation. We’re focused on our rants against candidates controlled by, or partial to, corporations. The article reminds me of the idealized government control, taxation and representation in certain European nations, where citizens supposedly have guaranteed housing, healthcare, childcare, nursing care, education, jobs, and retirement. Detractors believe European benefits could be on the downside, which reminds me regardless of how you vote, where you live or where you move, if life ever improves, it has never improved for everyone everywhere, so can we focus on planning ahead—as individuals?

“…in America, hard, full-time work should lead to economic security for working families.” Will there ever again be enough jobs and resources to accomplish this, or how can this occur in the face of ever increasing populations, pollution and dwindling resources? Keep buying, for the economy, housing and automotive and stock market, for the children, for our future, all while getting more obese, in debt, keep refinancing, and consolidating those debts. And the top two magazines by circulation in this country are put out by AARP. AlterNet has talked about the elderly being forced to stay in the workforce longer, but AARP tells readers we’re living longer and retirees want to remain productive. Is it all in how media spins the facts? If AlterNet is being realistic, why little mention of our own faults, how to change ourselves, and plan ahead—as individuals? We weren’t taught to live right by others, in the economic/resource sense. Who will?

Working America doesn't buy the idea that these are the "natural" consequences of economic modernization -- innate rules of an economy created by God and untouchable by man -- and they don't believe that they're to blame for their eroding economic security. “And Jesus will arrive when the last tree falls” (James Watt, Secretary of the Interior under Reagan) and the meek shall inherit the earth, and so on. How misguided and delusional are we? We blame corporations and so many other things for our problems, but how many of you invest in the stock market? Publicly owned companies support the stockholder, not the employee. Remember Circuit City’s recent tactic of laying off only to rehire at lower wages? Like Wal-Mart, someone is still shopping there, so who’s responsible for the mess we’re in? And the final assessment: “…not being given a real choice in terms of economic models [with] unflagging bipartisan support…[a]s long as people have no alternatives to choose from, they'll make their decisions based on which candidates look better or worship at the same church or hate the same people they do or would be fun to share a beer with.“ CONT'D

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Help Yourselves First: Why Don’t Americans Plan Ahead? 2 of 2
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Posted by: Overburdened Planet on Oct 13, 2007 11:22 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some of you are still hoping Gore will run for president, but he’s just another spin doctor emeritus with enough money to buy and sell you in carbon credits, not that most of us can afford to trade, but we all negatively contribute. Michael Moore, severely obese Manhattanite, Ralph Nader, anti-corporation stockholder; what do you really know about these people? They talk your language, voice your concerns, but they got rich doing it, not a problem per say, as your contributions put them where they are. How many on either side of any issue, political, religious, social, if currently poor, would switch sides if conditional upon receiving a large sum of money? Or, how many have decided there are alternatives and learn from lesser-advantaged cultures, because they have fewer choices than we do? Who are we if we complain about losing all the benefits listed in the article when others have so little? Where are the reminders to live with less, spend less, pay off debts, live communally (in a commune, share living space/resources/labor/expenses), buy and consume locally whenever possible, boycott products/services most harmful/supportive of harmful practices, invest in lowest risk funds or not at all, adopt vs. procreate? Even Barbara Ehrenreich’s book, “Nickled and Dimed” which only had four examples of her trying to live on minimum wage, didn’t once mention the possible solution of communal housing. I’ve lived in non-relative communal households three times in my life, with five to eight people to a house. You do what you can, when you need to, but we don’t even hold these concepts as values.

Do you know the story behind the products you buy? What I call its “Blood Trail”? Wasn’t it AlterNet that told us certain metals in our computers and cell phones come from terrible labor conditions in Africa (think of all the clothing, food and other goods we buy, made in poorer countries). Think about all the energy and water required to bring fast and frozen food to our mouths, in terms of production and transportation, while billions of people don’t have even the most basic of needs. Continue to consume with little thought except to voice your concerns about benefits some of us used to have. And does anyone think returning to that era wouldn’t also negatively impact the rest of the world, so how to fix our problems and theirs, no one excluded, exactly?

Of course I’m far from perfect, but I don’t have kids, so any lack of energy/resource savings you may point out, at least I didn’t bring another person into this world, especially an American, as we consume and waste more than most nations. To think even after connecting the dots for everyone, there will still be those who respond emotionally, saying I’m trying to force my opinions onto others, telling them how to live. Well, with the increases, we will stand to lose even more and we can’t have it all when others have so little. People in America think they have choices, the real choice is to live with less, plan ahead, save and be thankful if and when you find you did the right thing by planning ahead. Of course there’s no perfect plan, even the rich have problems. I grow weary reading the many complaints and in-fighting when so few people focus on reducing the population, and because it doesn’t seem to be a problem for most, that in and of itself should tell you it will be a problem soon enough.

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~~~S.O.S.~~~MayDay***
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Posted by: CaptChurch on Oct 13, 2007 11:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To: ALL you know.......
~~~S.O.S.~~~MayDay***
~~~"Suicidal thoughts, up since Katrina, PTSD survey says........"
------->>>"Suicide rate among girls skyrockets 76%, says Centers for Disease Control & Prevention"means, see to it that your neighbor has it just as good as you do, self-lessly!~~~"Who is my neighbor?"....EveryOne on the planet!
"LOVE is the Real Thing" on:
http://CaptainChurch.proboards57.com
http://groups.google.com/group/TeenAnswers
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BestTeenAnswers
http://blogs.albawaba.com/captainchurch
--->>>Also, the solution to impulsive depression/suicide:::
SUICIDE VACCINE is on these sites...it works!!!
Jim Sorrell [CaptainChurch]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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~~~S.O.S.~~~MayDay***
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Posted by: CaptChurch on Oct 13, 2007 11:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To: ALL you know.......
~~~S.O.S.~~~MayDay***
~~~"Suicidal thoughts, up since Katrina, PTSD survey says........"
------->>>"Suicide rate among girls skyrockets 76%, says Centers for Disease Control & Prevention"means, see to it that your neighbor has it just as good as you do, self-lessly!~~~"Who is my neighbor?"....EveryOne on the planet!
"LOVE is the Real Thing" on:
http://CaptainChurch.proboards57.com
http://groups.google.com/group/TeenAnswers
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BestTeenAnswers
http://blogs.albawaba.com/captainchurch
--->>>Also, the solution to impulsive depression/suicide:::
SUICIDE VACCINE is on these sites...it works!!!
Jim Sorrell [CaptainChurch]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Tucker1
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Posted by: earl on Oct 13, 2007 12:56 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And our younger corporate sheep are following along the meadow to whatever they're told is best for them, brainwashed into the flow, but the meadow is fenced in.

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Disbelief in the American Dream is easy to explain. The American Dream no longer exists.
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Posted by: yellow on Oct 13, 2007 2:39 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Class boundaries harden every year. Those born in the bottom half of US society tend to stay there whereas forty years ago social mobility was the norm. I blame the Reagan Revolution and neo-liberal capitalism. The very middle class that helped the Republicans to power two and a half decades ago and stubbornly kept them in power through the polls got utterly crushed by an economic agenda they didn't really see coming!!

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Truth be told!
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Posted by: Jackfruit on Oct 13, 2007 3:23 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem with you native born Americans is that you aren't satisfied of what life has given you.
Many 3rd World immigrants come to this country ( be it legally or illegally) because they believe in the American Dream. Ever lived in Burma, Zimbabwe, or North Korea?
Why do you think many displaced people around the world have fled their native countries such as Burma, Zimbabwe, or North Korea and sought better living here in the US or other western democratic countires? You think life here in the US is bad? Think about what took place in the past: Cambodia, where Pol Pott killed over a million of its own citizens, Mr. Marcos of the Phillippines crushing democartic reforms. Suharto( Indonesia), Saddam Hussien( Iraq), Robert Mugabe ( Zimbabwe), and now BURMA where Aung Sung Soo Kyi is under house arrest!
These places have been ruled by dictators!
You people ( Americans) don't know what you have got! All you do is complain. Get a life and see what is taking place around the world and connect history as well! Yet, here you are....crying about losing the American dream!

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» RE: Truth be told! Posted by: Spot
» RE: Truth be told! Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Truth be told! Posted by: Jackfruit
» RE: Truth be told! Posted by: Jackfruit
» RE: Truth be told! Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Truth be told! Posted by: Jackfruit

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It's time for a showdown between left and right
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Posted by: eaanders on Oct 14, 2007 10:56 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The bottom line is that the right wants to use the government as an authoritarian means to control the behavior of its people and the rest of the world, while allowing the free market to deliver economic benefits to whoever can scheme to get them, letting individuals sink or swim on their merits. The left wants to let individuals control their personal behavior and believes the government should be used to equalize economic benefits on a scale that provides an incentive to produce, but ensures a dignified existence for everyone. Both want a safety net for the impaired who can’t work, through no fault of their own.

The right advocates what they really believe, basically get government out of everything, and when they achieve power they act to implement it. The left does not. They don’t advocate direct government intervention and redistribution of income. Instead they want to continue a hodge-podge of subsidies, tax gimmicks and free market incentives that just muddy the water. On the issue of control of individual behavior and foreign policy the left and right will just have to continue advocating their positions. But on economic and taxation issues there is much to be gained by a change in the left’s approach.

The left should advocate scrapping all tax deductions, exemptions, subsidies, and loopholes, and replace them with steeply progressive income tax with a substantial earned income tax credit where everyone who is willing to work is guaranteed a living wage, not a poverty wage. They should advocate getting rid of all current directed welfare programs and replace them with direct subsidies to the incapacitated and impaired only. Doing this will eliminate the influence of special interests on government and get us back to being a society for all people as we were in the fifties.

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The American Dream is Alive!
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Posted by: Jackfruit on Oct 14, 2007 6:41 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mr. Holland, read my responce( Re: Truth be told). Like I have stated: You responce runs hollow to mine. I personally experienced and suffered from a right wing dictator. Coming to this lovely country of yours many years ago have help restored my life back and am grateful to the America for what it has given me and my family!

Many Burmese citizens are now suffering and are being tortured, as is Aung Sung Soo Kyi!
When you see refugees coming from Burma, North Korea, Zimbabwe and living in the US , they are living the American dream. Your poverty here compared to 3rd world countries is nothing compared to Southeast Asian countries like Philippines, Indonesia, Vietnam. Here the US government provides WIC for mothers who are pregnant and state governments provides health care to the poor. None of those exist in other countries I have mentioned.

Be grateful and count your blessings to what you have! Many others around the 3rd world do not have have what your( US) government provides!!! Those countries I have mentioned like Burma, North Korea, and Zimbabwe are under dictatorship! I know how they are living because I have been thru it ( dictatorship).

And after been thru hell here on earth under a ruthless dictator, I am glad for what the US have provided me and my family with. The American dream is alive!!!

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» RE: The American Dream is Alive! Posted by: ConnecttheDots

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Dream On...
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Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com on Oct 17, 2007 10:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's hard for Americans to find an ounce of good news during these tough times.
For example, I went shopping at a grocery store last week in Los Angeles and I screamed loudly to the cashier about a loaf of bread (Home Pride) costing nearly $4 and a gallon of milk at the same price. Don't get me wrong: I did not direct my anger at her.
I know there has been a drought in the nation's breadbasket (Minnesota, North Dakota) earlier this year and the cost to process the various grains to make bread is passed on to us, the consumers.
Also in L.A today a paper displayed photos of foreclosed homes ripe for the picking. Even though they may seem "affordable", we have to have two-TWO-maybe even THREE jobs to buy a house. Are we willing to do that and make sacrifices along the way? We're living on the precipice. Don't buy that Lexus when your kids need school supplies and clothes.
A generation ago it was possible for a person to buy a home with one job. But that's no longer the case. I don't know how we do it, go to Vegas or to a riverboat along the Mississippi and gamble to get the money, max out credit cards or something or ask a family member for a loan that we can't repay.
I also wonder about future college grads and the job market: will there be anything promising for them? I'm not putting the blame on either party. It's our fault things are the way they are in America. We've blown enormous suns of dollars and resources on follies such as war, weapons and other non-consumable items that negate social advancement.
Today we're living in cruel times. No one in power has offered any solutions to relieve the pressure families and workers face. Their answer? Homeland Security and to borrow a line from an old Pink Floyd song-"keep on digging!"
Companies try to sell us a vision, an idea on a dream, even presidents that anything is possible if you dream. It's hard to dream of a better life when we have a sieve-like safety net, i.e., welfare or unemployment benefits and the relentless assault on unions only gives us a temporary reprieve from eceonomic disaster.
Therefore, is the "dream" still attainable? Dream on.

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Agreed!
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Posted by: J_Mo on Oct 18, 2007 12:48 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hear hear!

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