COMMENTS: 96
College Students, Welcome to a Lifetime of Debt!
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Many life-changing things will happen to you in the next four years. You will make lasting friends, including perhaps the love of your life. You will drink more than you ever thought possible and bitterly regret it in the morning. You will lose your virginity, if you happen to have brought it with you.
Our stellar faculty ardently hopes that along the way you will be amazed by calculus and charmed by the tipsy conversation between Alcibiades and that wily old radical, Socrates. There is also a general expectation that you that you will come out of here with some hazy notion of spelling and grammar.
But never forget that your real purpose here is to shake off the pointless freedom of youth and assume the burden of debt. To this end, we have just raised our tuition in an attempt to keep up with such top-of-the-line institutions as George Washington University (now weighing in at $39,210 a year, or $50,000 with room and board). You will find us also charging a plethora of additional fees -- a "student activities fee," a "technology fee," and an "incidentals fee." In addition, we will be experimenting this year with a "snow removal fee," a "lecture hall seat-use fee," and the installation of pay toilets in the dorms.
It would be short-sighted to resent these fees, since they provide valuable experience in bill-reading, and will come in handy when you confront your own personal monthly utility statements. At present we do not charge any additional tuition for this training in bill-reading, though we are considering adding a special "fee fee" in the future.
Another thing that will help ease you into the status of debtor is the price of your textbooks -- about $120 to $180 for a new, graffiti-free copy. True, this seems high when you could buy a hardcover of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows for $20 or less, but the aim is to teach you that a book is something to treasure (and, again, we charge no extra fee for this lesson.)
On average, you will graduate with a respectable-sized debt of $20,000, which will enable you to establish your all-important "credit history." If we have succeeded in our educational mission, you will be a first-rate debtor, capable of making minimum monthly payments much of the time. As fresh offers of credit cards and home equity loans pour in, you will beam with pride at your achievement.
Please note carefully that Fleece U degree cannot guarantee you a future income that will allow you to pay off your debts. Many of our most promising graduates are now, three or four years later, working for $8-12 an hour serving up lattés, counseling disturbed youth or creating business computer networks. They are set for a lifetime of debt, and we are proud that they first began to accrue it right here, on our lovely mock Oxfordian campus.
We don't have to remind you not to stigmatize debt as a condition associated with poverty. In 2006, for the first time, the average household's debt exceeded its income. By becoming a debtor, you will have entered the American mainstream! We have confidence that you will go on to mature effortlessly from college debt to car loan to mortgage to medical debts occasioned by the ever-growing gaps in coverage.
You will see the value of all this debt when the day comes, as it inevitably will, when you wake up and ask yourself, "Who am I and what am I doing here?" You will be tempted to take long walks, read the Upanishads, or try out for a new career as a trophy spouse.
In a crisis like this, you could easily spend thousands of dollars on life coaching and motivational DVDs. But you won't have to, because you'll have debt to keep you going. You will get up, shower, and toil faithfully in your cubicle year after year until, in the fullness of time, your family acquires the debt for your interment (at which point we trust you will have remembered Fleece U in your will.)
So think of debt as the great motivator. Think of it as our gift to you. Because for at least the next academic year, we are not even thinking of charging for it.
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Posted by: TT5 on Sep 11, 2007 12:34 AM
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» You must be a college graduate......
Posted by: mizipi
» indentured doesn't mean getting a set of false teeth
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
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Posted by: PirateJesus on Sep 11, 2007 12:53 AM
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Posted by: Jkid4 on Sep 11, 2007 1:11 AM
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Posted by: supercrisp on Sep 11, 2007 2:22 AM
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» Encourage students to buy books online
Posted by: socialpsych
» the solution truly is with the professor's
Posted by: psychochurch
» no you DON'T "have to" ask them to buy books!
Posted by: deborama
» RE: no you DON'T "have to" ask them to buy books!
Posted by: sterlingdave54
» RE: no you DON'T "have to" ask them to buy books!
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: Textbooks are a TOTAL scam
Posted by: magiquarian1969
» RE: Textbooks are a TOTAL scam
Posted by: g
» RE: Textbooks are a TOTAL scam
Posted by: magiquarian1969
» Textbook Prices: Can you say "Torrent Sites?"
Posted by: PeaceLove
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Posted by: TT5 on Sep 11, 2007 2:24 AM
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Posted by: socialpsych on Sep 11, 2007 3:29 AM
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Posted by: pdxstudent on Sep 11, 2007 4:34 AM
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Posted by: ellie on Sep 11, 2007 4:33 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
now how about a raise for us profs who make less then our own student loan debt minimum payments just like our students???
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» The Heart of the Matter
Posted by: socialpsych
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Posted by: redbird30328 on Sep 11, 2007 4:58 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Major in something pertinent
Posted by: cinattra
» RE: Major in something pertinent
Posted by: somegirl
» RE: Major in something pertinent
Posted by: sterlingdave54
» RE: Major in something pertinent
Posted by: Strawman
» RE: Torgo cries a river
Posted by: Phenix
» RE: Major in something pertinent
Posted by: redbird30328
» RE: Major in something pertinent
Posted by: LindaB
» Pertinent schmertinent.
Posted by: ezilla
» Comment with a Joke
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Major in something pertinent
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: Major in something pertinent
Posted by: terihu
» RE: Major in something pertinent
Posted by: Drclaw
» Word
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Word
Posted by: LindaB
» RE: Major in something pertinent
Posted by: artie
» Better yet...Double major!
Posted by: doctorsquared
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Posted by: anothername on Sep 11, 2007 5:41 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Universities used to teach the elite class that would serve in government, provide medical care, and otherwise manage society. Now, universities are about business. Professors are expected to get corporate research grants to fund departments. Corporations were encouraged to send their employees back to school to fill seats that were empty between the baby boomers and the echo boomers. Companies trying to establish affirmative action guidelines started requiring college degrees as a sorting mechanism, whether the job really needed a college-educated person or merely someone with a brain. Police departments started requiring college degrees because they discovered that 22-year-olds are less reckless than 18-year-olds. How much debt are older students, returning to college after being laid off and needing to prove themselves again, carrying?
Think about the role of universities, private and public, and community colleges and vocational schools in society. Do not think about their role in providing a lifestyle for any given student. What has changed at Stanford since Leland Stanford started it as a no-tuition university open to both men and women? Is it now serving society by educating people, such as Pres. Herbert Hoover, or is it merely serving corporations and the individuals who find jobs with the companies?
Here’s another question for thought: Why is it when people hear that I write original theoretical socio-political philosophy, their first question tends to be an inquiry as to where I teach? We have become a society where we are not expected to think except within a scholastic environment.
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» Precisely the Rationale of the Comment Before You
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Precisely the Rationale of the Comment Before You
Posted by: sterlingdave54
» RE: Precisely the Rationale of the Comment Before You
Posted by: ezilla
» RE: Another theory
Posted by: astudent
» Additional thoughts
Posted by: anothername
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Posted by: rootsandruins on Sep 11, 2007 7:11 AM
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» Stay at home
Posted by: messedup
» RE: Stay at home
Posted by: Trazom
» If you got a student loan sorry, but there is no statute of limitations on them.
Posted by: Callibrarian
» RE: If you got a student loan sorry, but there is no statute of limitations on them.
Posted by: drcyflowers
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Posted by: NoKidding on Sep 11, 2007 7:18 AM
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signed,
a happy art history major class of 1998
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» RE: Not everyone is interested in accounting and finance (thank god)
Posted by: kestral
» RE: Not everyone is interested in accounting and finance (thank god)
Posted by: NoKidding
» civility
Posted by: suprmark
» RE: Not everyone is interested in accounting and finance (thank god)
Posted by: LindaB
» RE: Not everyone is interested in accounting and finance (thank god)
Posted by: NoKidding
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Posted by: Wacre on Sep 11, 2007 7:44 AM
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Currently the only debt I owe is about $250 on two credit cards (I paid off my student loans about three or four years ago), and to be honest even that bothers me somewhat, but that debt is of a manageable sort.
I find myself somewhat dissatisfied with my work, which is leading me toward graduate school. Luckily (as I understand it, at any rate) people that live in the District of Columbia–as I do–can attend many state schools at the cost of an in-state resident, so that should help me allay some of the debt.
I am estimating that I should have to spend no more than, at the top end, than $15 thousand a year for a college that I am interested in attending for graduate studies.
By no means a massive sum, but being that I have lived up to this point relatively debt-free, somewhat intimidating.
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Posted by: Conservasaurus on Sep 11, 2007 8:06 AM
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after putting all my kids through college, I suspect they would have been better off becoming plumbers considering what I just paid to one the other day - college is becoming over rated as well as over priced!
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» State Schools
Posted by: Phenix
» RE: Over priced and over rated!
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: Over priced and over rated!
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Over priced and over rated!
Posted by: CatDad
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Posted by: Incertus (Bradley) on Sep 11, 2007 8:39 AM
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» RE: It's a Complicated Issue
Posted by: Wacre
» RE: It's a Complicated Issue
Posted by: Incertus (Bradley)
» RE: It's a Complicated Issue
Posted by: Wacre
» RE: It's a Complicated Issue-a college prof's perspective
Posted by: Drclaw
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Sep 11, 2007 9:37 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Student loan financiers are indeed out to fleece students. See MSNBC, College loan scandal ‘like peeling an onion’
"N.Y. attorney general: Corruption widespread; criminal charges possible"
What's going on in the public universities is that they've been taken over by corporate interests. The topic is very taboo, but there is at least one excellent book on the topic:University Inc: The Corporate Corruption of Higher Education Jennifer Washburn
This applies to research (all patents controlled by Big Pharma, Exxon, BP, etc.), education (forget about journalism, welcome to propaganda studies), loan arrangements (corporate finance in bed with studen loan officers), contracting practices (food services run by the same corps that have prison food contracts).
The examples are endless, and what's really astonishing is how respected university professors are going along with this. One of the most jaw-dropping things I've ever hear was noted 'Stanford environmentalist' Paul Erlich on Democracy Now the other day on Exxon's control of their "Global Climate and Energy Program":
PAUL EHRLICH: Well, let me say, first of all, I had nothing whatever to do with that program, so I can say something sort of neutral about it. I think that universities like Stanford simply have to take money from corporations if they’re going to get their research done. I also am absolutely certain -- I know the people who run the GCEP program very well at Stanford -- that there is no shaping of the research by the corporation. It wouldn’t be -- people would just throw whoever did it out at Stanford. The faculty wouldn't stand for it.
Sorry, that's BS. If you want to read the GCEP agreement, look here: http://gcep.stanford.edu/about/agreement.html Exxon and friends get final say over the direction of research. They control the 'final selection committee' - See http://gcep.stanford.edu/about/projectselectionprocess.html
Amy Goodman didn't do her homework on this one, but at least she covered the issue! Ehrlich is either a liar or a fool.
Well.. you get the picture. The loan scams are just the tip of a vast iceberg. It's like Lysenko in the Soviet Union - seriously. The corporate control of the press and academics is a precursor to totalitarianism.
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» RE: Predatory finance, from subprimes to credit card to student loans-some other comments
Posted by: Drclaw
» Woe to researchers who threaten the value of corporate university IP rights!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: Woe to researchers who threaten the value of corporate university IP rights!
Posted by: Drclaw
» So - you're all for the repeal of Bayh-Dole, I take it?
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: So - you're all for the repeal of Bayh-Dole, I take it?
Posted by: Drclaw
» REAL markets are not 'evil' (as you said)
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: AL markets are not 'evil' (as you said)
Posted by: Drclaw
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Posted by: skaterokker on Sep 11, 2007 10:49 AM
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Posted by: zutronius on Sep 11, 2007 12:52 PM
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The American dream is a nightmare that masquerades as a dream.
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Posted by: christenxx on Sep 11, 2007 1:51 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That was all lies.
My senior year I was told that financial aid would no longer be available to me, and I could not afford to pay for classes and still eat and pay rent, so I quit school. Luckily, I was able to find a steady job in my field, but it's for a non-profit company and the pay is not great. I also work on weekends at the bar where I've been employed for 4 1/2 years. I just got a letter from my financial aid lender telling me that my payments, which were past due even though I received no notification, were $747 per month, which is more than my rent, car payment, and insurance combined. I cannot find any help to refinance it, and the lenders will not accept a lower payment. So basically, I've been working my ass off for 10 years, I work 7 days a week, I can't afford to pay off my loans or continue with school, and I will be in debt the rest of my life. Hooray! I wish I had never gone to college - I'd probably be managing a restaurant and making fat money right now. I could have had a good time without the $55,000 debt!
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Posted by: auntiegrav on Sep 11, 2007 2:22 PM
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As some stuffed shirt once said, "The business of America is Business."
The simple answer is that the society has decided that a credential is more important than your skills and attitude toward doing useful work. That credentialization of the job market has created an excess of demand for a 'degree', but no specific demand for usefulness. Until the 'market clears' on college and society, where the need for usefulness outweighs the want for fiat money from credentialed employment doing useless jobs, then there will be too many people willing to let colleges charge ridiculous prices for very little added value, and the banks are more than willing to put you in debt to fulfill your illusions of imagined success.
Most of the people who are in college shouldn't be there, whether teaching or studying. There are plenty of libraries and books in this country; we don't need to pay a System to tell us how to read any more. There is a need for serious academic pursuits, but the current state of affairs is mostly just affairs and booze and sports.
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Posted by: Salaberry on Sep 11, 2007 9:41 PM
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Posted by: Col. Jackleg on Sep 11, 2007 10:40 PM
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» RE: Priorities
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: ShoShenQ on Sep 11, 2007 11:02 PM
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Easy to understand why the ones in power -guess who they are- prefer to wage wars rather than invest in education.
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Posted by: donl51 on Sep 12, 2007 12:05 AM
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» RE: Glad I didn't have children
Posted by: Trazom
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Posted by: richholland on Sep 12, 2007 2:08 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In America they found poverty, but still if they should go to the western frontier their dreames came true.
In Europe and Asia nowadays many smart Americans work.
i.e MacDonalds Amsterdam pays an adult US$ 14,- as a minimum.
But also IT jobs avaiable.
What would happen to USA when thousands of young people leave, not as surpressors and soldiers but wanted as good working honest people?
Young men, Go East
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Posted by: toastwar on Sep 12, 2007 9:27 AM
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Posted by: gonzalo1939 on Sep 12, 2007 10:30 AM
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Posted by: comp sci grad on Sep 12, 2007 10:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now I can't find a job, thanks to the rigging of the job market by the likes of Grigsby and Cohen and employer's ability to simply ignore resumes.
on this you tube video
Hundreds of thousands of CS majors like myself have done what I've done- go to interview after interview, fully qualified, and been rejected because thanks to the effectively UNLIMITED immigration provided by the H1B program, employers can have indentured servants rather than employees.
as documented here
The fact of the matter is- America is a scam, run by scam masters, standing for nothing, dedicated to funneling as much money into the hands of the corporate elite as possible through any means necessary, including economic warfare on its own people.
Don't tell me getting a job is about your work ethic or your skill set or any other *oddamn thing. I lived it. I watched my friends, equally saddled with "engineering debt" live it. Universities are scams. The workplace is a scam. Don't be scammed.
Just leave. Just leave America and let it rot in its own fetid filth. They need you to keep their corporations running, because, believe me, the "leaders" don't do anything approaching work. They're the "deciders", you're the "doers" and the "diers". They can't function without you, but that doesn't mean they'll ever stop scamming you out of your life and freedom through a little thing they like to call "permanent debt".
Hey did you hear the one about the scorpion and the frog? The scorpion wants to get across the river, so he asks the frog to let him ride on his back.
The frog says no way, I know you, you'll sting me.
The scorpion says, why would I do that? If I did that, we'd both die.
The frog is persuaded, and lets the scorpion on his back and they head across the river.
In the middle of the river, the scorpion stings the frog.
"Why did you sting me?" gasps the dying frog.
"Because I'm a scorpion", says the scorpion.
Get it? Even their own demise won't entice them to be any less greedy because it's the essence of what they are. They're criminals who want to commit crimes that 1) harm others while 2) benefiting themselves.
You Senators and Congresspeople, your deans and CEOs are are sociopaths who experience life in a way that's just completely alien to you- as a game in which you take from others and ruin other people's lives to advance yourself. This is the essence and core of what it means to feel alive for them. To have more, to see other people lessened and yourself lifted up.
You don't owe America anything. You sure don't owe it a lifetime of trying to pay off debt in a rigged "marketplace". Just leave. Get America out of your life and let the greedheads and coke snorters and Senators and Congressmen find someone to fight their wars and pay their bills . Good luck with that.
As for the university, it's about the hyper-inflation of tuition where virtually nothing has changed since the 19th century in terms of the "sage on the stage" lecture and listen style of teaching. That's because it's the lowest cost product they can churn out. Education innovation? Reduction in cost and increase in value through competition? Those are the coke -snorting free-market-freaks' mantras. Where are they in the real world? Nowhere.
Just leave.
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Posted by: Ayla87 on Sep 12, 2007 5:52 PM
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I was reading Popular Science a month or two ago and it had a list of 20 some odd degrees that you can get today, that didn't even exist 30 years ago. One of them was a degree I'm considering right now. (Neurobiology)
No one should be going to college and spending thousands of dollars to focus on just one subject. It doesn't matter what the major is. If you don't develop other skill areas, then the experience you'll gain won't be worth it in the end. Your no use to the rest of the world or yourself for that matter if all you understand is mathematical equations or different genres of art. People today need to be able to know finance, science, math, civics, history, literature, computer technology, foriegn language, et cetera... just to survive in the real world. You need more than that too. Everyone should at least gain a little work and leadership experience while in college. College students need to learn how to write a resume and how to behave in an interview. Its essential! If you don't take some of the time to learn this, whether on your own or in college, then your doing yourself a disservice, and you're setting yourself up for a lifetime of debt. And to be honest, I find it hard to feel sorry for people in that position. They wasted four of the best years of thier lives, indulging on one thing. Thats gluttonous in my opinion.
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» RE: It doesn't matter what degree you have.
Posted by: comp sci grad
» What the hell are you ranting about?
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: What the hell are you ranting about?
Posted by: comp sci grad
» RE: What the hell are you ranting about?
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: What the hell are you ranting about?
Posted by: comp sci grad
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Posted by: Aleksonder on Sep 16, 2007 7:58 PM
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Posted by: TT5 on Sep 11, 2007 12:34 AM
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» You must be a college graduate......
Posted by: mizipi
» indentured doesn't mean getting a set of false teeth
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
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Posted by: PirateJesus on Sep 11, 2007 12:53 AM
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Posted by: Jkid4 on Sep 11, 2007 1:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: supercrisp on Sep 11, 2007 2:22 AM
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» Encourage students to buy books online
Posted by: socialpsych
» the solution truly is with the professor's
Posted by: psychochurch
» no you DON'T "have to" ask them to buy books!
Posted by: deborama
» RE: no you DON'T "have to" ask them to buy books!
Posted by: sterlingdave54
» RE: no you DON'T "have to" ask them to buy books!
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: Textbooks are a TOTAL scam
Posted by: magiquarian1969
» RE: Textbooks are a TOTAL scam
Posted by: g
» RE: Textbooks are a TOTAL scam
Posted by: magiquarian1969
» Textbook Prices: Can you say "Torrent Sites?"
Posted by: PeaceLove
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Posted by: TT5 on Sep 11, 2007 2:24 AM
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Posted by: socialpsych on Sep 11, 2007 3:29 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: pdxstudent on Sep 11, 2007 4:34 AM
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Posted by: ellie on Sep 11, 2007 4:33 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
now how about a raise for us profs who make less then our own student loan debt minimum payments just like our students???
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» The Heart of the Matter
Posted by: socialpsych
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Posted by: redbird30328 on Sep 11, 2007 4:58 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Major in something pertinent
Posted by: cinattra
» RE: Major in something pertinent
Posted by: somegirl
» RE: Major in something pertinent
Posted by: sterlingdave54
» RE: Major in something pertinent
Posted by: Strawman
» RE: Torgo cries a river
Posted by: Phenix
» RE: Major in something pertinent
Posted by: redbird30328
» RE: Major in something pertinent
Posted by: LindaB
» Pertinent schmertinent.
Posted by: ezilla
» Comment with a Joke
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Major in something pertinent
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» RE: Major in something pertinent
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» RE: Major in something pertinent
Posted by: Drclaw
» Word
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Word
Posted by: LindaB
» RE: Major in something pertinent
Posted by: artie
» Better yet...Double major!
Posted by: doctorsquared
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Posted by: anothername on Sep 11, 2007 5:41 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Universities used to teach the elite class that would serve in government, provide medical care, and otherwise manage society. Now, universities are about business. Professors are expected to get corporate research grants to fund departments. Corporations were encouraged to send their employees back to school to fill seats that were empty between the baby boomers and the echo boomers. Companies trying to establish affirmative action guidelines started requiring college degrees as a sorting mechanism, whether the job really needed a college-educated person or merely someone with a brain. Police departments started requiring college degrees because they discovered that 22-year-olds are less reckless than 18-year-olds. How much debt are older students, returning to college after being laid off and needing to prove themselves again, carrying?
Think about the role of universities, private and public, and community colleges and vocational schools in society. Do not think about their role in providing a lifestyle for any given student. What has changed at Stanford since Leland Stanford started it as a no-tuition university open to both men and women? Is it now serving society by educating people, such as Pres. Herbert Hoover, or is it merely serving corporations and the individuals who find jobs with the companies?
Here’s another question for thought: Why is it when people hear that I write original theoretical socio-political philosophy, their first question tends to be an inquiry as to where I teach? We have become a society where we are not expected to think except within a scholastic environment.
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» Precisely the Rationale of the Comment Before You
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Precisely the Rationale of the Comment Before You
Posted by: sterlingdave54
» RE: Precisely the Rationale of the Comment Before You
Posted by: ezilla
» RE: Another theory
Posted by: astudent
» Additional thoughts
Posted by: anothername
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Posted by: rootsandruins on Sep 11, 2007 7:11 AM
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» Stay at home
Posted by: messedup
» RE: Stay at home
Posted by: Trazom
» If you got a student loan sorry, but there is no statute of limitations on them.
Posted by: Callibrarian
» RE: If you got a student loan sorry, but there is no statute of limitations on them.
Posted by: drcyflowers
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Posted by: NoKidding on Sep 11, 2007 7:18 AM
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signed,
a happy art history major class of 1998
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» RE: Not everyone is interested in accounting and finance (thank god)
Posted by: kestral
» RE: Not everyone is interested in accounting and finance (thank god)
Posted by: NoKidding
» civility
Posted by: suprmark
» RE: Not everyone is interested in accounting and finance (thank god)
Posted by: LindaB
» RE: Not everyone is interested in accounting and finance (thank god)
Posted by: NoKidding
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Wacre on Sep 11, 2007 7:44 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Currently the only debt I owe is about $250 on two credit cards (I paid off my student loans about three or four years ago), and to be honest even that bothers me somewhat, but that debt is of a manageable sort.
I find myself somewhat dissatisfied with my work, which is leading me toward graduate school. Luckily (as I understand it, at any rate) people that live in the District of Columbia–as I do–can attend many state schools at the cost of an in-state resident, so that should help me allay some of the debt.
I am estimating that I should have to spend no more than, at the top end, than $15 thousand a year for a college that I am interested in attending for graduate studies.
By no means a massive sum, but being that I have lived up to this point relatively debt-free, somewhat intimidating.
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Posted by: Conservasaurus on Sep 11, 2007 8:06 AM
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after putting all my kids through college, I suspect they would have been better off becoming plumbers considering what I just paid to one the other day - college is becoming over rated as well as over priced!
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» State Schools
Posted by: Phenix
» RE: Over priced and over rated!
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: Over priced and over rated!
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Over priced and over rated!
Posted by: CatDad
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Posted by: Incertus (Bradley) on Sep 11, 2007 8:39 AM
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» RE: It's a Complicated Issue
Posted by: Wacre
» RE: It's a Complicated Issue
Posted by: Incertus (Bradley)
» RE: It's a Complicated Issue
Posted by: Wacre
» RE: It's a Complicated Issue-a college prof's perspective
Posted by: Drclaw
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Sep 11, 2007 9:37 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Student loan financiers are indeed out to fleece students. See MSNBC, College loan scandal ‘like peeling an onion’
"N.Y. attorney general: Corruption widespread; criminal charges possible"
What's going on in the public universities is that they've been taken over by corporate interests. The topic is very taboo, but there is at least one excellent book on the topic:University Inc: The Corporate Corruption of Higher Education Jennifer Washburn
This applies to research (all patents controlled by Big Pharma, Exxon, BP, etc.), education (forget about journalism, welcome to propaganda studies), loan arrangements (corporate finance in bed with studen loan officers), contracting practices (food services run by the same corps that have prison food contracts).
The examples are endless, and what's really astonishing is how respected university professors are going along with this. One of the most jaw-dropping things I've ever hear was noted 'Stanford environmentalist' Paul Erlich on Democracy Now the other day on Exxon's control of their "Global Climate and Energy Program":
PAUL EHRLICH: Well, let me say, first of all, I had nothing whatever to do with that program, so I can say something sort of neutral about it. I think that universities like Stanford simply have to take money from corporations if they’re going to get their research done. I also am absolutely certain -- I know the people who run the GCEP program very well at Stanford -- that there is no shaping of the research by the corporation. It wouldn’t be -- people would just throw whoever did it out at Stanford. The faculty wouldn't stand for it.
Sorry, that's BS. If you want to read the GCEP agreement, look here: http://gcep.stanford.edu/about/agreement.html Exxon and friends get final say over the direction of research. They control the 'final selection committee' - See http://gcep.stanford.edu/about/projectselectionprocess.html
Amy Goodman didn't do her homework on this one, but at least she covered the issue! Ehrlich is either a liar or a fool.
Well.. you get the picture. The loan scams are just the tip of a vast iceberg. It's like Lysenko in the Soviet Union - seriously. The corporate control of the press and academics is a precursor to totalitarianism.
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» RE: Predatory finance, from subprimes to credit card to student loans-some other comments
Posted by: Drclaw
» Woe to researchers who threaten the value of corporate university IP rights!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: Woe to researchers who threaten the value of corporate university IP rights!
Posted by: Drclaw
» So - you're all for the repeal of Bayh-Dole, I take it?
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: So - you're all for the repeal of Bayh-Dole, I take it?
Posted by: Drclaw
» REAL markets are not 'evil' (as you said)
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: AL markets are not 'evil' (as you said)
Posted by: Drclaw
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Posted by: skaterokker on Sep 11, 2007 10:49 AM
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Posted by: zutronius on Sep 11, 2007 12:52 PM
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The American dream is a nightmare that masquerades as a dream.
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Posted by: christenxx on Sep 11, 2007 1:51 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That was all lies.
My senior year I was told that financial aid would no longer be available to me, and I could not afford to pay for classes and still eat and pay rent, so I quit school. Luckily, I was able to find a steady job in my field, but it's for a non-profit company and the pay is not great. I also work on weekends at the bar where I've been employed for 4 1/2 years. I just got a letter from my financial aid lender telling me that my payments, which were past due even though I received no notification, were $747 per month, which is more than my rent, car payment, and insurance combined. I cannot find any help to refinance it, and the lenders will not accept a lower payment. So basically, I've been working my ass off for 10 years, I work 7 days a week, I can't afford to pay off my loans or continue with school, and I will be in debt the rest of my life. Hooray! I wish I had never gone to college - I'd probably be managing a restaurant and making fat money right now. I could have had a good time without the $55,000 debt!
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Posted by: auntiegrav on Sep 11, 2007 2:22 PM
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As some stuffed shirt once said, "The business of America is Business."
The simple answer is that the society has decided that a credential is more important than your skills and attitude toward doing useful work. That credentialization of the job market has created an excess of demand for a 'degree', but no specific demand for usefulness. Until the 'market clears' on college and society, where the need for usefulness outweighs the want for fiat money from credentialed employment doing useless jobs, then there will be too many people willing to let colleges charge ridiculous prices for very little added value, and the banks are more than willing to put you in debt to fulfill your illusions of imagined success.
Most of the people who are in college shouldn't be there, whether teaching or studying. There are plenty of libraries and books in this country; we don't need to pay a System to tell us how to read any more. There is a need for serious academic pursuits, but the current state of affairs is mostly just affairs and booze and sports.
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Posted by: Salaberry on Sep 11, 2007 9:41 PM
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Posted by: Col. Jackleg on Sep 11, 2007 10:40 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Priorities
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: ShoShenQ on Sep 11, 2007 11:02 PM
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Easy to understand why the ones in power -guess who they are- prefer to wage wars rather than invest in education.
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Posted by: donl51 on Sep 12, 2007 12:05 AM
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» RE: Glad I didn't have children
Posted by: Trazom
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Posted by: richholland on Sep 12, 2007 2:08 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In America they found poverty, but still if they should go to the western frontier their dreames came true.
In Europe and Asia nowadays many smart Americans work.
i.e MacDonalds Amsterdam pays an adult US$ 14,- as a minimum.
But also IT jobs avaiable.
What would happen to USA when thousands of young people leave, not as surpressors and soldiers but wanted as good working honest people?
Young men, Go East
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Posted by: toastwar on Sep 12, 2007 9:27 AM
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Posted by: gonzalo1939 on Sep 12, 2007 10:30 AM
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Posted by: comp sci grad on Sep 12, 2007 10:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now I can't find a job, thanks to the rigging of the job market by the likes of Grigsby and Cohen and employer's ability to simply ignore resumes.
on this you tube video
Hundreds of thousands of CS majors like myself have done what I've done- go to interview after interview, fully qualified, and been rejected because thanks to the effectively UNLIMITED immigration provided by the H1B program, employers can have indentured servants rather than employees.
as documented here
The fact of the matter is- America is a scam, run by scam masters, standing for nothing, dedicated to funneling as much money into the hands of the corporate elite as possible through any means necessary, including economic warfare on its own people.
Don't tell me getting a job is about your work ethic or your skill set or any other *oddamn thing. I lived it. I watched my friends, equally saddled with "engineering debt" live it. Universities are scams. The workplace is a scam. Don't be scammed.
Just leave. Just leave America and let it rot in its own fetid filth. They need you to keep their corporations running, because, believe me, the "leaders" don't do anything approaching work. They're the "deciders", you're the "doers" and the "diers". They can't function without you, but that doesn't mean they'll ever stop scamming you out of your life and freedom through a little thing they like to call "permanent debt".
Hey did you hear the one about the scorpion and the frog? The scorpion wants to get across the river, so he asks the frog to let him ride on his back.
The frog says no way, I know you, you'll sting me.
The scorpion says, why would I do that? If I did that, we'd both die.
The frog is persuaded, and lets the scorpion on his back and they head across the river.
In the middle of the river, the scorpion stings the frog.
"Why did you sting me?" gasps the dying frog.
"Because I'm a scorpion", says the scorpion.
Get it? Even their own demise won't entice them to be any less greedy because it's the essence of what they are. They're criminals who want to commit crimes that 1) harm others while 2) benefiting themselves.
You Senators and Congresspeople, your deans and CEOs are are sociopaths who experience life in a way that's just completely alien to you- as a game in which you take from others and ruin other people's lives to advance yourself. This is the essence and core of what it means to feel alive for them. To have more, to see other people lessened and yourself lifted up.
You don't owe America anything. You sure don't owe it a lifetime of trying to pay off debt in a rigged "marketplace". Just leave. Get America out of your life and let the greedheads and coke snorters and Senators and Congressmen find someone to fight their wars and pay their bills . Good luck with that.
As for the university, it's about the hyper-inflation of tuition where virtually nothing has changed since the 19th century in terms of the "sage on the stage" lecture and listen style of teaching. That's because it's the lowest cost product they can churn out. Education innovation? Reduction in cost and increase in value through competition? Those are the coke -snorting free-market-freaks' mantras. Where are they in the real world? Nowhere.
Just leave.
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Posted by: Ayla87 on Sep 12, 2007 5:52 PM
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I was reading Popular Science a month or two ago and it had a list of 20 some odd degrees that you can get today, that didn't even exist 30 years ago. One of them was a degree I'm considering right now. (Neurobiology)
No one should be going to college and spending thousands of dollars to focus on just one subject. It doesn't matter what the major is. If you don't develop other skill areas, then the experience you'll gain won't be worth it in the end. Your no use to the rest of the world or yourself for that matter if all you understand is mathematical equations or different genres of art. People today need to be able to know finance, science, math, civics, history, literature, computer technology, foriegn language, et cetera... just to survive in the real world. You need more than that too. Everyone should at least gain a little work and leadership experience while in college. College students need to learn how to write a resume and how to behave in an interview. Its essential! If you don't take some of the time to learn this, whether on your own or in college, then your doing yourself a disservice, and you're setting yourself up for a lifetime of debt. And to be honest, I find it hard to feel sorry for people in that position. They wasted four of the best years of thier lives, indulging on one thing. Thats gluttonous in my opinion.
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» RE: It doesn't matter what degree you have.
Posted by: comp sci grad
» What the hell are you ranting about?
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: What the hell are you ranting about?
Posted by: comp sci grad
» RE: What the hell are you ranting about?
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: What the hell are you ranting about?
Posted by: comp sci grad
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Posted by: Aleksonder on Sep 16, 2007 7:58 PM
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Tax the Corporations and the Rich or Take Draconian Cuts -- the Decision Is Ours
Home Underwater? Walk Away from Geithner's Perverse 'Homeowner Relief' Plan
Fury at Wall St. Banks Fuels Public Action for Move Your Money Campaign




