COMMENTS: 145
Two Trillion Spent on Healthcare Each Year: A Sick Way to Prop Up an Ailing Economy
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In the summer of 2005, the New York Times reported that the real estate biz -- "everything from land surveyors to general contractors to loan officers" -- had added 700,000 jobs to the American economy during the previous four years, while the rest of the work force had lost 400,000 jobs over the same period. Technically the economy was in "recovery," when in fact most of it remained soft.
A few economists sounded a warning about having all our eggs in one economic basket. People like Yale's Robert Shiller and Dean Baker at the Center for Economic Policy and Research pointed out that home values weren't syncing up with the fundamentals of the market, and that we were headed for an "adjustment" -- either a real estate crash leading to a recession or, in the best case scenario, a "soft landing."
But while there were some voices of caution, other economists told us that everything was going gangbusters. This was the New Economy in action: American manufacturing may have been gutted during the previous few decades, but the service sector is where more "value" is added anyway -- where the big profits are -- and Americans would be just fine selling each other houses, insurance and the occasional cheeseburger until the Next Big Thing came along.
It was a hot debate, but something else was going on at the same time that got less attention: There was the emergence of what could be called the healthcare economy. As Michael Mandel wrote in Businessweek last September, "Without [the health sector], the nation's labor market would be in a deep coma." Between 2001 and 2006, 1.7 million new jobs were added in the healthcare sector. Meanwhile, the rest of the private sector added exactly zero new jobs (net) during that period.
(The conventional wisdom is that the economy needs to add about 150,000 jobs per month to keep up with the growth of the working-age population.)
If current trends continue, 30 percent to 40 percent of all new jobs created in the United States over the next 25 years will be in the healthcare business. Mandel argued that this trend is partly responsible for the United States' low overall unemployment rate. "Take away healthcare hiring in the U.S.," he wrote, "and quicker than you can say cardiac bypass, the U.S. unemployment rate would be 1 to 2 percentage points higher."
One could argue that this is precisely how a vibrant economy should work. A dynamic industry takes off and compensates for weaknesses in other sectors. When it cools, another field will explode, perhaps one we can't even conceive of today.
What's more, healthcare jobs have increased at the same time as we've shed millions of relatively high-paying manufacturing jobs. Wages in the health sector vary widely, but the average is slightly higher than the average income in the private sector as a whole. Healthcare is labor-intensive, so a lot of the more than $2 trillion we'll spend this year in the Unites States will end up in healthcare workers' pockets. It's also an industry in which offshoring and outsourcing are uncommon; you might be able to schedule your colonoscopy with a guy at a call center in Mumbai, but ultimately your ass has to be in the same country as the personnel who do it.
So, is a healthcare economy a bad thing?
It is, and for three reasons in particular. The most obvious is that these jobs are coming at a cost that the United States can't continue to pay without facing severe consequences (especially as the baby boomers get into their Golden Years). According to government data (PDF), healthcare costs exploded between 2000 and 2005 -- increasing by a whopping 47 percent. Over a longer period, from 1995 to 2005, per capita healthcare spending increased by 77 percent. That's slowed a bit, but not by much; total costs are projected to reach $2.25 trillion dollars this year, up 14 percent just since 2005.
That kind of growth outpaces the overall growth in the economy by a mile -- the share of America's total economic output being sucked into healthcare has increased from just under 14 percent in 2000 to over 16 percent this year, and is expected to equal one fifth of the total economy in 10 years.
Those costs put the squeeze on millions of American families. A study by the Commonwealth fund found that families' out-of-pocket expenses (and premium copayments) rose in direct proportion to overall healthcare spending. With wages stagnating, that's leading to real pain; almost half of those declaring bankruptcy in 2001 cited healthcare costs as a "major contributor." An ABC News/USA Today Poll found that one in four Americans questioned said that their family had had a problem paying for medical care during the past year, up 7 percentage points over the past nine years.
It may also have an indirect impact on wages, which have remained stagnant for most of the working population since 2001. Right-wing economists like Greg Mankiw, the former chairman of Bush's Council of Economic Advisors, who infamously suggested that assembling cheeseburgers at a Stuckies should count as a manufacturing job, argue that looking at wages isn't an honest measure of how workers are doing, because their overall compensation -- including medical and other benefits -- has risen faster than inflation, while wages haven't. Allan Hubbard, another Bush economic advisor, told the Wall Street Journal that "employers are spending more money on healthcare, and that's robbing people of wage increases." The claim is controversial -- corporate profits and executive pay have both increased at the same time, and fewer than half of all American workers get coverage from their employer -- but it is a simple fact that the gap between the cash working Americans are pocketing and the money their employers pay for an hour of their time has been growing. According to a study by the Kaiser Foundation (PDF), workers' pay rose by 18 percent between 2000 and 2006 -- not quite keeping up with the 20 percent total inflation -- but employers' healthcare premiums rose by almost 90 percent.
That last number gets to the heart of the second problem, one that Big Business is becoming increasingly aware of: Those costs are much higher than in other countries and, unlike every other advanced economy in the world, much of the burden is born by U.S. companies instead of being spread across society through a progressive tax system. That puts them at a distinct disadvantage in terms of labor costs, and encourages U.S. firms to offshore and outsource as many jobs as possible. So while the healthcare industry is adding jobs, the spiraling costs create a powerful incentive for other sectors to shed them.
Lastly, and most importantly, we're talking about investing an enormous chunk of our national income into a healthcare system that offers the lowest imaginable value for the dollar. In 2004, we spent $6,102 per American on healthcare. Not only did that figure lead the world, it did so by a huge margin -- No. 2, Switzerland, came in at just over $4,000 per person, two grand less than the United States. For that money, we rank between 15th to 37th out of 153 countries studied by the American Society of Integrative Medicine in every single measure of health outcomes. The authors note that "almost every major study of America's healthcare system has concluded that we could hardly do worse in terms of how much well-being is yielded for the resources currently expended." We're paying for a Ferrari, and we're driving a Pinto.
There are many reasons these costs are so bloated, and some are subject to fierce debate. But what is arguably the biggest problem is also one of the least discussed: The fact that the whole system is set up with perverse and essentially self-defeating incentives. America's healthcare economy is actually a sickness economy, where all the emphasis is on treating people once they've gotten sick, instead of keeping people healthy in the first place. It is reactive rather than proactive, despite a large body of research that proves the old adage that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Studies show that a dollar spent on preventive health will save up to four dollars by the fourth year that the data are tracked ($$). But while public health experts preach prevention, only about one percent -- a penny on the American healthcare dollar -- goes to actual prevention programs (depending on how you add it up, that figure may be as high as ten percent, which is still far below what other advanced countries spend on prevention).
And we're also paying a steep penalty -- all of us -- for our system's lack of universality. Studies show that people without coverage often put off medical care until the symptoms are so bad that they end up in an emergency room, where they ran up about $65 billion in charges in 2005. According to a study by the advocacy group FamiliesUSA, they pay a bit more than a third of the costs out-of-pocket, the government picks up a third of the remainder and the rest is paid by people with health coverage through higher premiums. According to the FamiliesUSA study, that adds up to almost $1,000 per fully insured family.
That's where we are: With $600 billion per year picked up by the government, our healthcare system, while a rip-off by any reasonable measure -- is becoming a fabulously expensive jobs program. The idea of the government shelling out big bucks to stimulate growth in the number of decent jobs is passé among policy makers, but we do it year in and year out in the healthcare economy. There are other sectors that, with proper government encouragement, could use that kind of stimulus -- things like renewable energy, rail and public infrastructure.
We need a healthcare system that's about caring for people's health, not a healthcare economy that is more effective at making an uncertain economy look strong than it is at keeping us well.
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Posted by: johngary66 on Jul 28, 2007 3:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Tuesday, April 18, 2006
By George Anders, The Wall Street Journal
MINNETONKA, Minn. -- When William McGuire switched careers in 1986, he was so restless that a pay cut of more than 30 percent didn't faze him. Health maintenance organizations were booming, and Dr. McGuire wanted to help run one. So he jettisoned a six-figure income as a pulmonologist in favor of an HMO management job that paid about $70,000 a year.
Savvy move. Today, the 58-year-old Dr. McGuire is chief executive officer of UnitedHealth Group Inc., one of the nation's largest health-care companies. He draws $8 million a year in salary plus bonus, enjoying perks such as personal use of the company jet. He also has amassed one of the largest stock-options fortunes of all time.
Unrealized gains on Dr. McGuire's options totaled $1.6 billion, according to UnitedHealth's proxy statement released this month. Even celebrated CEOs such as General Electric Co.'s Jack Welch or International Business Machines Corp.'s Louis Gerstner never were granted so much during their time at the top.
Dr. McGuire's story shows how an elite group of companies is getting rich from the nation's fraying health-care system. Many of them aren't discovering drugs or treating patients. They're middlemen who process the paperwork, fill the pill bottles and otherwise connect the pieces of a $2 trillion industry.
The profit needed to pay Mr. McGuire $1.6billion in stock options had to come at the expense of patients denied service, How many died because the company denied a needed treatment to save money?
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» This is a big part of the problem. The Rich are sucking the wealth out of the Economy.
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: Suzon on Jul 28, 2007 4:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lastly, and most importantly, we're talking about investing an enormous chunk of our national income into a healthcare system that offers the lowest imaginable value for the dollar.
And the author isn't even talking about the people without any coverage whatsoever, the vast army of the working poor.
My son was in a road accident five years ago in which the other passenger was killed outright. Though he had no visible injuries, he was in horrific pain. The first hospital he went to sent him away (not many casual laborers can afford to finance their own medical insurance). When my daugher-in-law insisted he go to another hospital, they found his spleen was ruptured and did the necessary surgery. The doctor said he was two hours away from death. They struggle to pay what they can on the $5,000 doctor's bill.
This year he had a bad fall, didn't see a doctor and he now "walks funny". And how could I have helped without selling my house, the only family asset?
The rich and greedy have been running the world to suit themselves and it's high time we egalitarians took it back.
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» RE: denial of health (and dental) care is tantamount to cruel and unusual punishment
Posted by: bornxeyed
» You could write to Dr. McGuire he has a couple billion laying around!
Posted by: johngary66
» RE: my first experience of the NHS was great - no grilling about insurance
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: my first experience of the NHS was great - no grilling about insurance
Posted by: NeoLotus
» RE: my first experience of the NHS was great - no grilling about insurance
Posted by: bornxeyed
» bornxeyed, get that knee taken care of. You will probably get arthritis anyway but a doctor....
Posted by: johngary66
» RE: bornxeyed, get that knee taken care of. You will probably get arthritis anyway but a doctor....
Posted by: bornxeyed
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Posted by: pharmawatcher on Jul 28, 2007 4:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Merrill Goozner
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Posted by: hagwind on Jul 28, 2007 5:17 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Supposedly this is OK because we're a democracy. We can vote. ("Persuade us that we the people can't fix things ourselves, then sell us candidates to do it for us. When all else fails, sell us angry gods, New Age claptrap, and a couple of bootstraps. Lotteries are also good.")
Seriously, this is an important article. Things are so screwed up on the ground that it's easy to forget the big picture. Where I live, booms in the real estate market are inversely proportional to the health of the community, and it's real easy to see because the place is pretty small. All jobs are not created equal. If half the population has jobs making a mess and the other half has jobs cleaning it up, are we really making progress?
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» Excellent Points!!!!!!!!!!NM
Posted by: Gravitas
» RE: xcellent Points!!!!!!!!!!NM
Posted by: krose
» Yep, it's the desert island analogy.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Actually,
Posted by: oregoncharles
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Posted by: reinaldok on Jul 28, 2007 5:44 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
angioplasty, stents, on and on and ten thousand bucks in my pocket" or "Your tests came out just fine- come back and see me in six months." In this particular case - the Your Just Fine option did win out. How many doctors would have opted for the ten grand, whether the procedure was required or not? I really don't know.
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» Probably more than you think...
Posted by: mjabele
» Excuse the good doctor, He's living in Fantasia
Posted by: MAD
» RE: xcuse the good doctor, He's living in Fantasia
Posted by: krose
» RE: Probably more than you think...
Posted by: krose
» It's not all about you, or me either
Posted by: hagwind
» I appreciate your comments...
Posted by: mjabele
» I appreciate your comments...cont.
Posted by: mjabele
» Thanks, mjabele, for your comments
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: A matter of trust
Posted by: krose
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Posted by: LHM on Jul 28, 2007 6:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Healthcare insiders report
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Healthcare insiders report
Posted by: krose
» RE: Healthcare educators as well
Posted by: Sushi
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Posted by: drricklippin on Jul 28, 2007 6:09 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Joshua Holland- Excellent phrase to end your very important article.
As you know I am a prevention advocate-both individual(=health behaviors) and institutional(=public health). But prevention must be implemented-
-incrementally
-with fairness
-always with compassion
All of us will require treatment in our lifetime- sometimes often-sometime even very expensive high tech treatment.
But our current high tech very expensive treatment based "disease care system " is not economically sustainable
Prevention will free up health care dollars ($) so they can flow to where treatment is needed most
Congratulations Josh and AlterNet on an excellent article
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southamptton, Pa
http://medicalcrises.blogspot.com
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» PREVENTION MUST BE COMBINED WITH UNIVERSAL ACCESS AND SINGLE PROVIDER
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: PREVENTION MUST BE COMBINED WITH UNIVERSAL ACCESS AND SINGLE PROVIDER
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: PREVENTION MUST BE COMBINED WITH UNIVERSAL ACCESS AND SINGLE PROVIDER
Posted by: racetoinfinity
» RE: PREVENTION MUST BE COMBINED WITH UNIVERSAL ACCESS AND SINGLE PROVIDER
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: PREVENTION IS OUR ONLY WAY OUT OF THIS MESS
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: PREVENTION IS OUR ONLY WAY OUT OF THIS MESS-Rationing!
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: PREVENTION IS OUR ONLY WAY OUT OF THIS MESS-Rationing!
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: PREVENTION IS OUR ONLY WAY OUT OF THIS MESS-Rationing!
Posted by: vultureculture
» RE: PREVENTION IS OUR ONLY WAY OUT OF THIS MESS-Rationing!
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Advertising
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: Advertising
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: Advertising
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Advertising
Posted by: bornxeyed
» ?????
Posted by: gellero
» Feeling authoritarian today? Or living the law of the jungle? Which is it?
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Everyone knows the risks...
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: workout insurance deductions
Posted by: Melvin
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Posted by: ray burchard on Jul 28, 2007 6:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This will always be the predicted results when we use a system of applied mathematics designed specifically to facilitate commerce (merchant mentality) as foundation for all logical resolve, the continuum of "pathetic fallacy", equating everything to the almighty dollar.
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Posted by: sofla100 on Jul 28, 2007 7:02 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Time for Americans to Join the World and Wake-Up
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: Time for Americans to Join the World and Wake-Up
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: Time for Americans to Join the World and Wake-Up
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Time for Americans to Join the World and Wake-Up
Posted by: racetoinfinity
» RE: Time for Americans to Join the World and Wake-Up
Posted by: krose
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Posted by: Democritus on Jul 28, 2007 7:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Look at the Conyers-Kucinich healthcare bill BUT MUST INCLUDE PREVENTION
Posted by: drricklippin
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Posted by: Gravitas on Jul 28, 2007 7:09 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Speaking of fear mongering, if anyone wants an alternate opinion to the "obesity is contagious" frenzy making all the headlines, you can find one here. Since it is tangential
related, I will post my opinion in a link instead of a post:
http://truthwhisperer.wordpress.com/
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» RE: One Thing He Didn't Mention
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: One Thing He Didn't Mention
Posted by: Gravitas
» Good link
Posted by: hagwind
» And what you forgot to mention
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Yup!!! Good Point NM
Posted by: Gravitas
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Posted by: smokedoctor on Jul 28, 2007 7:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For a list of tobacco-caused conditions and behaviors, see Effects. For background on tobacco ingredients that cause such dangerous effects, see Ingredients.
Prevention of high health care costs is crucial, and needs to be implemented on a crash basis. Let's follow the wise example of, e.g., Iowa, Tennessee, and Michigan, which banned cigarette making by law. See references on said laws at Iowa Law, Tennessee Law , and Michigan Law.
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» RE: Prevention of High Health Care Costs Sought for Over A Century
Posted by: Bozwell
» RE: Prevention of High Health Care Costs Sought for Over A Century
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Bait & Switch
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: Bait & Switch
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Bait & Switch
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: Bait & Switch
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Wrong assumption again by JH and the crypto MSM world.
Posted by: gellero
» I'll leave the baseless assumptions to you ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Bait & Switch
Posted by: vultureculture
» RE: Bait & Switch
Posted by: krose
» Which?
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Bait & Switch
Posted by: hagwind
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Posted by: veive on Jul 28, 2007 8:03 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Old news-NO THIS IS NEW NEWS!
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: Old news
Posted by: krose
» RE: Old news NAMECALLING DEGRADES THE BLOGOSPHERE
Posted by: drricklippin
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Posted by: R.I.P. on Jul 28, 2007 9:14 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: snowhound on Jul 28, 2007 9:19 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» "THEY" control your food??
Posted by: gellero
» RE: "THEY" control your food??
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: "THEY" control your food??
Posted by: snowhound
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Posted by: LeaderofMen on Jul 28, 2007 9:46 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Too many lobbyists have way too much control over our elected officials. No universal healthcare for you. Go to the back of the line.
2. Too many insurance companies, hospital equipment manufacturers (unregulated) and pharmas (unregulated and lobbyists) involved to EVER EVER EVER allow YOU to get universal healthcare (read: one payer).
3. Almost 2 million jobs created in the last 6 years in this industry alone will preclude them from losing their jobs, since they support the unregulated businesses that feed the healthcare industry, have something to do with the insurance companies - whose vested interest is to maximize profits - and thus, deny your claim, and are very highly paid lobbyists employed by pharmas and equipment manufacturers whose job it is to not only keep their extremely highly paid jobs, but to make sure that no legislation ever gets written by politicians that will allow universal, single-payer healthcare. The lobbyists are there the WRITE the policies and HAND them over to politicians who they've BOUGHT.
Thus, the US will never, ever ever in a MILLION years ever have universal, single-payer healthcare.
Besides, if Hillary ever becomes Prez, remember - she was right under Ricky Santorum for the second largest recipient of insurance company money. Thus, she's already been purchased, bought off and silenced with respect to this issue. So, DON'T even look to her to help us out on this.
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» RE: Universal Healthcare: NEVER EVER...
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: Universal Healthcare: NEVER EVER...
Posted by: racetoinfinity
» RE: Universal Healthcare: NEVER EVER...
Posted by: krose
» A leaderofmen, I think not! A true leader solves problems. You give up!
Posted by: johngary66
» RE: Universal Healthcare: NEVER EVER...
Posted by: halg
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Posted by: ReallyBearish on Jul 28, 2007 9:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Article missed the biggest issue
Posted by: CatDad
» And let's not forget "hidden" inflation
Posted by: bornxeyed
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Posted by: ld7440 on Jul 28, 2007 9:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» MOM had a bill??
Posted by: gellero
» She does pay for something
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: MOM had a bill??
Posted by: halg
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Posted by: eddie torres on Jul 28, 2007 9:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the real estate sector could add hundreds of thousands of jobs denying homes to families who had already made mortgage payments, the right people (Wall Street) would have the money they need to build a private 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea ride.
If the defense sector could add hundreds of thousands of jobs denying weapons to government departments who had already paid for the R&D, the right people (Wall Street) would have the money they need to build a private Big Thunder Mountain Railroad ride.
If the fast food sector could add hundreds of thousands of jobs denying food to people who had already paid for it, the right people (Wall Street) would have the money they need to build a private Rocket To The Moon ride.
If the information technology sector could add hundreds of thousands of jobs denying internet access to people who had already paid for it, the right people (Wall Street) would have the money they need to build a private Pirates of the Caribbean ride.
This Pinto ain't explodin', it's building a Three-Card-Monty economy the likes of which the world has never seen. "Behold the unedifying spectacle of the sucker economy." (Simon Schama)
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Posted by: LeaderofMen on Jul 28, 2007 9:58 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Get yourself educated about hospital costs. The majority of hospitals operate at a loss. Only some of them are operating a little in the black. Only a FEW.
Take a look at Chicago, for instance. This is the 3rd largest city in the US. The majority of he hospitals here get the majority of their profit margin from PREVIOUS INVESTMENTS. They do NOT get their 'profit margin' from YOU the sick person. They do not get their 'profit margin' from the insurance companies. Remember, the ins. co's are in business to DENY claims. They have no interest whatsoever in feeding the so-called profits of a hospital's bottom line. No way, no how.
Hospitals are regulated out the ass. They have to follow some of the strictest guidelines handed down from the fed and from the state. If they don't follow them to a T, they are hugely fined. The industries that are NOT regulated are the equipment manu's and the pharma industry. Their revenues go up and the hospitals MUST pay their extortion rates or else the hospital can't compete. If the hospital can't compete, there are no patients. No patients - the hospital closes.
Note this, too. Hospitals constantly lose money because they are BY LAW required to service everyone that comes in an emergency room. If the person can't pay, guess who eats that cost? Not you. Not me. The hospital eats it. BY LAW. Don't tell me that Michael Moore's film, where the woman's daughter died, is contradictory to this because SHE HAD HEALTHCARE. I'm talking about those who DON'T. Those people who don't have healthcare get serviced and if they don't pay, they simply don't pay. Period.
In addition, let's say you're on Medicare. You need a hip replacement. The hospital must pay, say $2000 for the titanium hip for YOU. Medicare pays the hospital $790 for your stay. THE HOSPITAL JUST LOST ALL THAT MONEY. Never mind that the hip replacement for YOU is a fixed cost that can't be negotiated by ANYONE, the hospital just lost money because of you. Hospitals are NOT huge dramatic profit centers sucking the system dry. Not by a longshot.
Don't just rip on hospitals. They're victims in this healthcare debacle just as the rest of us are.
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» RE: Don't Get Duped: Hospitals
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Don't Get Duped: Hospitals
Posted by: CatDad
» And by "hospital" you mean whom? If staff were hurting, they'd support change. Why don't they?
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Don't Get Duped: Hospitals
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Because collection agencies use fraudulent phone #s to train new people.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Because collection agencies use fraudulent phone #s to train new people.
Posted by: bornxeyed
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Posted by: picket on Jul 28, 2007 11:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now for the middle class..hope grandma is retired and knows how to cook nutritious meals and can give some good advice. Otherwise.....I'm so sorry.
United States Dept of Agriculture [ USDA ] has too much political pressure from Food Production Associations and other Wall Street markets to really care about the health of
middle Americans. Check out the controversy re the old Food Guide Pyramid and the new 2005 MyPyramid @ Harvard School of Public Health..Dept of Nutrition...Nutrition Source.
"Aside from not smoking the most important determinants of good health are what we eat and how active we are."
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» RE: BUT IT TASTES SO GOOD............
Posted by: vultureculture
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Posted by: BobbyGreyFriar on Jul 28, 2007 1:50 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just finished Barbara Ehrenreich’s Bait and Switch, was not surprised by anything in it although it is apparent that the outlook is bleak indeed for those who wish remain employed at middle-class income levels, let alone expect to have any kind of job security or health coverage. But her conclusion suggests, what I’ve suspected for a while now (and has been anticipated at least since Marx in the 19th century), that capitalism, or what we call capitalism at any rate (the market economy, i.e.), is moribund. This raises a question: If this is indeed the case, will the whole thing collapse completely or will it transmutate into something else, a kind of tyranny ruled not be the truncheon but perpetual underemployment and the fear of unemployment? Perhaps one that transcends the need even for laws? One where compliance is technically voluntary but where dissent is practically impossible; reliant not on the Thought Police but inanity? It is impossible for me to see how “business as usual” can continue, the economy is increasingly unable, for nothing that has to do with lack of materiel or human resources, to take care of the population.* At present many signs suggest that the economy is self-destructing, that whole edifice will just collapse in a heap under its own weight; but if it is not, if the overall power structure can survive, it seems there is every reason to believe that will shortly find ourselves in a Dark Age bleaker than crude totalitarian world of 1984.
But what if instead the capitalism just self-destructs, as it almost did once? In the short run this will be a catastrophe for everyone and could even precipitate a nuclear war. But could it advantageous in the long run, once the rubble has been cleared? A cathartic event wringing in the millennium? I believe that this hope is widely held, but I think it is a dangerously complacent one. The reality, I believe, will be that scores of people who have hitherto been relatively prosperous will be trust to the bottom and won’t know what to do—the shock of such a radical descent would be beyond what most people could sustain. Therefore, if there is hope, it has to lie in us at last taking responsibility for ourselves. Deciding what aims are political and socially desirable and single-mindedly pursuing them, being fully prepared to confront whatever obstacles the forces of reaction will create to stop us. Idealism coupled with a hard eye on reality and the willingness to change strategy at once when a change of strategy is called for (Liberal support for the Democratic Party, who have failed to do anything other than support Republican policy, such as continuing the war on Iraq, comes to mind as an example of failed strategy. I think that creating a “third party” that takes a principled stand would be a logical next, but if that doesn’t work more “direct” forms of activism may turn out to be what’s required.).
*”And we have to find [long-term] solutions, because there is a level of macro-irrationality here that does beyond the micro-insanity of individual hiring and firing decisions: That is a massive, sickening, ongoing waste of talent, as exemplified by the taxi-driving engineer, the idle teachers and techies, the still employed people who are too crushed by anxiety to express their creativity (Ehrenreich, Bait and Switch).”
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» RE: Capitalism is Dying: Prognosis Bad
Posted by: halg
» Where were you when the cities were burning?The Green Party is right, but they'll never be President
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Where were you when the cities were burning?The Green Party is right, but they'll never be President
Posted by: halg
» The message is right. Maybe folks (enough to make a difference) will begin to listen soon enough.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Capitalism is Dying: Prognosis Bad
Posted by: Trazom
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Posted by: Watercolors on Jul 28, 2007 3:57 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: dayahka on Jul 28, 2007 4:41 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Second, a rational health-care system needs to protect people against the costs of accidents (broken bones, etc.) and other sudden illnesses, like a ruptured appendix.
The first two levels should be the focus of any reform.
It's the third level that is killing the health-care system for the rest of us (who aren't insured or aren't wealthy). A lot of the cost of health-care insurance and hospitalization comes from elective surgeries for health conditions caused by voluntary and preventable conditions. This includes heart surgeries of all kinds, surgeries and medical attention that are necessary because of smoking, drinking, and otherwise doing things that are known to cause serious health problems. This level should NOT be covered by a national health insurance system: if someone wants to smoke or drink themselves sick, then they can spend their own money to buy private insurance to cover the costs of the inevitable illnesses. It is because this level is now included in insurance and medicare costs that makes the whole system so unaffordable and wasteful.
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» RE: Three Levels of Health Care
Posted by: Trazom
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Posted by: eosrk on Jul 28, 2007 5:02 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: halg on Jul 28, 2007 10:52 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was living in Seattle.com while all this bullshit was going on. In 1998, I was looking for work and had a hard time finding work for pay -- with "pay" meaning MONEY, as opposed to worthless stock options. Thanks to then-President Clinton, I was competing with other unemployed Seattlites against zillions of H1B Visa people from India, Pakistan, and elsewhere. As if that was not enough, Clinton allowed for an "expanded" H1B Visa program in order to continue his war against American software workers making a living. I and thousands of other people got hurt by all of this. Your under-reporting it just rubs the salt in deeper.
That it took so much longer for others to wake up is a failure of the press to report events correctly. But making the hilarious claim that the dot-com bust started in 2001 makes my sides hurt too much. Please get your facts straight.
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» RE: Uh, the dot-com bust began in 1998 ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» And ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: And ...
Posted by: halg
» RE: Uh, the dot-com bust began in 1998 ...
Posted by: halg
» RE: Uh, the dot-com bust began in 1998 ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Uh, the dot-com bust began in 1998 ...
Posted by: halg
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Posted by: racetoinfinity on Jul 29, 2007 12:37 AM
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» RE: This comment should be on the DVD cover of "Sicko"
Posted by: racetoinfinity
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Posted by: michaeltwatson on Jul 29, 2007 2:45 AM
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» RE: Doctors and Insurance Companies Continue to Blame the Patients
Posted by: CatDad
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Posted by: justaguy on Jul 29, 2007 3:57 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Chuckle.
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» RP wouldn't have much to say about Healthcare. It's a great example of market failure in the US!!
Posted by: yellow
» Re: Ron Paul & the "Free Market" Ideology
Posted by: CatDad
» I agree. The "Free Market" has been given a long time to accomplish many things it failed to do.
Posted by: yellow
» Society...
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Society...
Posted by: CatDad
» There's a whole big wide world out there...
Posted by: justaguy
» Not just high taxes pay for health care that's cost effective & cover all at lower per capita cost!!
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: williameon on Jul 29, 2007 6:40 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We must level the playing field.
Eliminate the Middle Man.
Axe the HMO s and insurance Companies.
We must take the Money out of politics.
Stop special interest from buying our government officials.
Break up the Media Conglomerates
A open locally owned and run, Media is essential
To the survival of our country.
Level the playing field in Politics
By public financing of all elections.
Why should Billionaires be able to buy office?
Why do they?
Where is the payoff?
Stop the Revolving door in Washington.
Ban corporate lobbyists from Government.
Change the one party ‘Corpirate’ system
To a true Multi party system.
Decentralize:
The Media Conglomerates
Manufacturing
Farming
and
Energy Production
Have a Armed Forces for defensive purposes only.
Stop Corporate Welfare!
Reinstitute all
The Bush & Co Tax breaks
Close the Loopholes.
End the Tax Shelters.
With all of these savings
Guarantee:
Fairness
Universal Health care
A Livable wage
A clean environment
Education
Housing
And
Subsidence
To all.
The richest country in the world surely can afford these things,
That our poorer neighbors easily provide.
Stop Bullying the World.
Let’s start acting Compassionate
Good Deeds are a lot stronger than empty rhetoric.
Take care of our own first.
We are measured by how we treat the least amongst us.
The Poor
Homeless
And
The Sick!
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Posted by: Sushi on Jul 29, 2007 9:06 AM
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This means is that all the pay-raises we should have gotten in our paychecks have gone to the health insurance industry. (OK, and to Exxon/Shell/Chevron) And probably not even to the workers in the industry, but to the exectutives who run the insurance companies. What say we co-pay our premiums and see how they like that deal? They pay half our premiums in exchange for them paying half our claims. We are not even getting what we pay for, folks. They muddy the waters with small-print and made-up terminology with twisted logic (Pre-existing? Is that like pre-pregnant?) and walk away with our earnings. They are selling promises and not coming through. Health care would not be so expensive if it weren't for the insurance industry. We used to pay the doctor for a $50 visit. Now we pay $400/mo for "insurance" and still have to pay a co-pay for the visit.
Perhaps people would not have so many health problems if they could eat better quality food they could afford, live less dangerous conditions and have fewer stress-related problems if we were PAID BETTER! Ya think?
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Posted by: willymack on Jul 29, 2007 9:50 AM
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Posted by: Maryanne on Jul 29, 2007 12:14 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When first admitted to the hospital with heart failure, he was totally helpless and had to be restrained in the wheel chair lest he fall. The day before we planned to bring him home, he was left unattended in the bathroom, tried to rise (he thought he was strong) fell, broke his hip, and needed surgery.
Transferred to another hospital for rehab, he continued to be restrained in wheelchair and bed, lest he fall- but again he was left unattended in the bathroom, fell, broke his other hip, and needed another surgery.
The problem was with payment. The insurance company - he had insurance as well as Medicare- had no problem paying for his surgeries, and the resultant hospitalization. They also had no problem paying for his initial hospitalization for heart failure -until he fell. According to their reasoning (!). once he fell, he had no further problems with his heart- although this had worsened as a result of the surgeries, and despite the cardiologist continuing to visit him regularly. This doctor spent hundreds of hours submitting forms in order to be paid for the continuing care he provided after the falls- and finally gave up as too cost effective for him, since it was tying up his staff.
Result of the inadequate supervision in the hospital, and the surgeries- Dad was further weakened and now confused,; he could no longer return home but was placed in a nursing home. The cardiologist never was paid. Could we sue? The cost of acquiring medical records was excessive (in the thousands of dollars). Furthermore we were informed by our attorney that should we lose the case- as was likely- we could/would be sued for frivolous court action. We could not pursue this; money would not get us our Dad back.
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» RE: Medical care and insurance
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Medial care and insurance
Posted by: PonyGirl
» RE: Medial care and insurance
Posted by: babs
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Posted by: johngary66 on Jul 28, 2007 3:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Tuesday, April 18, 2006
By George Anders, The Wall Street Journal
MINNETONKA, Minn. -- When William McGuire switched careers in 1986, he was so restless that a pay cut of more than 30 percent didn't faze him. Health maintenance organizations were booming, and Dr. McGuire wanted to help run one. So he jettisoned a six-figure income as a pulmonologist in favor of an HMO management job that paid about $70,000 a year.
Savvy move. Today, the 58-year-old Dr. McGuire is chief executive officer of UnitedHealth Group Inc., one of the nation's largest health-care companies. He draws $8 million a year in salary plus bonus, enjoying perks such as personal use of the company jet. He also has amassed one of the largest stock-options fortunes of all time.
Unrealized gains on Dr. McGuire's options totaled $1.6 billion, according to UnitedHealth's proxy statement released this month. Even celebrated CEOs such as General Electric Co.'s Jack Welch or International Business Machines Corp.'s Louis Gerstner never were granted so much during their time at the top.
Dr. McGuire's story shows how an elite group of companies is getting rich from the nation's fraying health-care system. Many of them aren't discovering drugs or treating patients. They're middlemen who process the paperwork, fill the pill bottles and otherwise connect the pieces of a $2 trillion industry.
The profit needed to pay Mr. McGuire $1.6billion in stock options had to come at the expense of patients denied service, How many died because the company denied a needed treatment to save money?
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» This is a big part of the problem. The Rich are sucking the wealth out of the Economy.
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: Suzon on Jul 28, 2007 4:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lastly, and most importantly, we're talking about investing an enormous chunk of our national income into a healthcare system that offers the lowest imaginable value for the dollar.
And the author isn't even talking about the people without any coverage whatsoever, the vast army of the working poor.
My son was in a road accident five years ago in which the other passenger was killed outright. Though he had no visible injuries, he was in horrific pain. The first hospital he went to sent him away (not many casual laborers can afford to finance their own medical insurance). When my daugher-in-law insisted he go to another hospital, they found his spleen was ruptured and did the necessary surgery. The doctor said he was two hours away from death. They struggle to pay what they can on the $5,000 doctor's bill.
This year he had a bad fall, didn't see a doctor and he now "walks funny". And how could I have helped without selling my house, the only family asset?
The rich and greedy have been running the world to suit themselves and it's high time we egalitarians took it back.
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» RE: denial of health (and dental) care is tantamount to cruel and unusual punishment
Posted by: bornxeyed
» You could write to Dr. McGuire he has a couple billion laying around!
Posted by: johngary66
» RE: my first experience of the NHS was great - no grilling about insurance
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: my first experience of the NHS was great - no grilling about insurance
Posted by: NeoLotus
» RE: my first experience of the NHS was great - no grilling about insurance
Posted by: bornxeyed
» bornxeyed, get that knee taken care of. You will probably get arthritis anyway but a doctor....
Posted by: johngary66
» RE: bornxeyed, get that knee taken care of. You will probably get arthritis anyway but a doctor....
Posted by: bornxeyed
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Posted by: pharmawatcher on Jul 28, 2007 4:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Merrill Goozner
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Posted by: hagwind on Jul 28, 2007 5:17 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Supposedly this is OK because we're a democracy. We can vote. ("Persuade us that we the people can't fix things ourselves, then sell us candidates to do it for us. When all else fails, sell us angry gods, New Age claptrap, and a couple of bootstraps. Lotteries are also good.")
Seriously, this is an important article. Things are so screwed up on the ground that it's easy to forget the big picture. Where I live, booms in the real estate market are inversely proportional to the health of the community, and it's real easy to see because the place is pretty small. All jobs are not created equal. If half the population has jobs making a mess and the other half has jobs cleaning it up, are we really making progress?
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» Excellent Points!!!!!!!!!!NM
Posted by: Gravitas
» RE: xcellent Points!!!!!!!!!!NM
Posted by: krose
» Yep, it's the desert island analogy.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Actually,
Posted by: oregoncharles
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Posted by: reinaldok on Jul 28, 2007 5:44 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
angioplasty, stents, on and on and ten thousand bucks in my pocket" or "Your tests came out just fine- come back and see me in six months." In this particular case - the Your Just Fine option did win out. How many doctors would have opted for the ten grand, whether the procedure was required or not? I really don't know.
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» Probably more than you think...
Posted by: mjabele
» Excuse the good doctor, He's living in Fantasia
Posted by: MAD
» RE: xcuse the good doctor, He's living in Fantasia
Posted by: krose
» RE: Probably more than you think...
Posted by: krose
» It's not all about you, or me either
Posted by: hagwind
» I appreciate your comments...
Posted by: mjabele
» I appreciate your comments...cont.
Posted by: mjabele
» Thanks, mjabele, for your comments
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: A matter of trust
Posted by: krose
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Posted by: LHM on Jul 28, 2007 6:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Healthcare insiders report
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Healthcare insiders report
Posted by: krose
» RE: Healthcare educators as well
Posted by: Sushi
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Posted by: drricklippin on Jul 28, 2007 6:09 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Joshua Holland- Excellent phrase to end your very important article.
As you know I am a prevention advocate-both individual(=health behaviors) and institutional(=public health). But prevention must be implemented-
-incrementally
-with fairness
-always with compassion
All of us will require treatment in our lifetime- sometimes often-sometime even very expensive high tech treatment.
But our current high tech very expensive treatment based "disease care system " is not economically sustainable
Prevention will free up health care dollars ($) so they can flow to where treatment is needed most
Congratulations Josh and AlterNet on an excellent article
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southamptton, Pa
http://medicalcrises.blogspot.com
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» PREVENTION MUST BE COMBINED WITH UNIVERSAL ACCESS AND SINGLE PROVIDER
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: PREVENTION MUST BE COMBINED WITH UNIVERSAL ACCESS AND SINGLE PROVIDER
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: PREVENTION MUST BE COMBINED WITH UNIVERSAL ACCESS AND SINGLE PROVIDER
Posted by: racetoinfinity
» RE: PREVENTION MUST BE COMBINED WITH UNIVERSAL ACCESS AND SINGLE PROVIDER
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: PREVENTION IS OUR ONLY WAY OUT OF THIS MESS
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: PREVENTION IS OUR ONLY WAY OUT OF THIS MESS-Rationing!
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: PREVENTION IS OUR ONLY WAY OUT OF THIS MESS-Rationing!
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: PREVENTION IS OUR ONLY WAY OUT OF THIS MESS-Rationing!
Posted by: vultureculture
» RE: PREVENTION IS OUR ONLY WAY OUT OF THIS MESS-Rationing!
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Advertising
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: Advertising
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: Advertising
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Advertising
Posted by: bornxeyed
» ?????
Posted by: gellero
» Feeling authoritarian today? Or living the law of the jungle? Which is it?
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Everyone knows the risks...
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: workout insurance deductions
Posted by: Melvin
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Posted by: ray burchard on Jul 28, 2007 6:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This will always be the predicted results when we use a system of applied mathematics designed specifically to facilitate commerce (merchant mentality) as foundation for all logical resolve, the continuum of "pathetic fallacy", equating everything to the almighty dollar.
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Posted by: sofla100 on Jul 28, 2007 7:02 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Time for Americans to Join the World and Wake-Up
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: Time for Americans to Join the World and Wake-Up
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: Time for Americans to Join the World and Wake-Up
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Time for Americans to Join the World and Wake-Up
Posted by: racetoinfinity
» RE: Time for Americans to Join the World and Wake-Up
Posted by: krose
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Posted by: Democritus on Jul 28, 2007 7:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Look at the Conyers-Kucinich healthcare bill BUT MUST INCLUDE PREVENTION
Posted by: drricklippin
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Posted by: Gravitas on Jul 28, 2007 7:09 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Speaking of fear mongering, if anyone wants an alternate opinion to the "obesity is contagious" frenzy making all the headlines, you can find one here. Since it is tangential
related, I will post my opinion in a link instead of a post:
http://truthwhisperer.wordpress.com/
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» RE: One Thing He Didn't Mention
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: One Thing He Didn't Mention
Posted by: Gravitas
» Good link
Posted by: hagwind
» And what you forgot to mention
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Yup!!! Good Point NM
Posted by: Gravitas
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Posted by: smokedoctor on Jul 28, 2007 7:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For a list of tobacco-caused conditions and behaviors, see Effects. For background on tobacco ingredients that cause such dangerous effects, see Ingredients.
Prevention of high health care costs is crucial, and needs to be implemented on a crash basis. Let's follow the wise example of, e.g., Iowa, Tennessee, and Michigan, which banned cigarette making by law. See references on said laws at Iowa Law, Tennessee Law , and Michigan Law.
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» RE: Prevention of High Health Care Costs Sought for Over A Century
Posted by: Bozwell
» RE: Prevention of High Health Care Costs Sought for Over A Century
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Bait & Switch
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: Bait & Switch
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Bait & Switch
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: Bait & Switch
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Wrong assumption again by JH and the crypto MSM world.
Posted by: gellero
» I'll leave the baseless assumptions to you ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Bait & Switch
Posted by: vultureculture
» RE: Bait & Switch
Posted by: krose
» Which?
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Bait & Switch
Posted by: hagwind
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Posted by: veive on Jul 28, 2007 8:03 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Old news-NO THIS IS NEW NEWS!
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: Old news
Posted by: krose
» RE: Old news NAMECALLING DEGRADES THE BLOGOSPHERE
Posted by: drricklippin
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Posted by: R.I.P. on Jul 28, 2007 9:14 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: snowhound on Jul 28, 2007 9:19 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» "THEY" control your food??
Posted by: gellero
» RE: "THEY" control your food??
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: "THEY" control your food??
Posted by: snowhound
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Posted by: LeaderofMen on Jul 28, 2007 9:46 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Too many lobbyists have way too much control over our elected officials. No universal healthcare for you. Go to the back of the line.
2. Too many insurance companies, hospital equipment manufacturers (unregulated) and pharmas (unregulated and lobbyists) involved to EVER EVER EVER allow YOU to get universal healthcare (read: one payer).
3. Almost 2 million jobs created in the last 6 years in this industry alone will preclude them from losing their jobs, since they support the unregulated businesses that feed the healthcare industry, have something to do with the insurance companies - whose vested interest is to maximize profits - and thus, deny your claim, and are very highly paid lobbyists employed by pharmas and equipment manufacturers whose job it is to not only keep their extremely highly paid jobs, but to make sure that no legislation ever gets written by politicians that will allow universal, single-payer healthcare. The lobbyists are there the WRITE the policies and HAND them over to politicians who they've BOUGHT.
Thus, the US will never, ever ever in a MILLION years ever have universal, single-payer healthcare.
Besides, if Hillary ever becomes Prez, remember - she was right under Ricky Santorum for the second largest recipient of insurance company money. Thus, she's already been purchased, bought off and silenced with respect to this issue. So, DON'T even look to her to help us out on this.
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» RE: Universal Healthcare: NEVER EVER...
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: Universal Healthcare: NEVER EVER...
Posted by: racetoinfinity
» RE: Universal Healthcare: NEVER EVER...
Posted by: krose
» A leaderofmen, I think not! A true leader solves problems. You give up!
Posted by: johngary66
» RE: Universal Healthcare: NEVER EVER...
Posted by: halg
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ReallyBearish on Jul 28, 2007 9:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Article missed the biggest issue
Posted by: CatDad
» And let's not forget "hidden" inflation
Posted by: bornxeyed
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Posted by: ld7440 on Jul 28, 2007 9:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» MOM had a bill??
Posted by: gellero
» She does pay for something
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: MOM had a bill??
Posted by: halg
Comments are closed-
Posted by: eddie torres on Jul 28, 2007 9:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the real estate sector could add hundreds of thousands of jobs denying homes to families who had already made mortgage payments, the right people (Wall Street) would have the money they need to build a private 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea ride.
If the defense sector could add hundreds of thousands of jobs denying weapons to government departments who had already paid for the R&D, the right people (Wall Street) would have the money they need to build a private Big Thunder Mountain Railroad ride.
If the fast food sector could add hundreds of thousands of jobs denying food to people who had already paid for it, the right people (Wall Street) would have the money they need to build a private Rocket To The Moon ride.
If the information technology sector could add hundreds of thousands of jobs denying internet access to people who had already paid for it, the right people (Wall Street) would have the money they need to build a private Pirates of the Caribbean ride.
This Pinto ain't explodin', it's building a Three-Card-Monty economy the likes of which the world has never seen. "Behold the unedifying spectacle of the sucker economy." (Simon Schama)
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Posted by: LeaderofMen on Jul 28, 2007 9:58 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Get yourself educated about hospital costs. The majority of hospitals operate at a loss. Only some of them are operating a little in the black. Only a FEW.
Take a look at Chicago, for instance. This is the 3rd largest city in the US. The majority of he hospitals here get the majority of their profit margin from PREVIOUS INVESTMENTS. They do NOT get their 'profit margin' from YOU the sick person. They do not get their 'profit margin' from the insurance companies. Remember, the ins. co's are in business to DENY claims. They have no interest whatsoever in feeding the so-called profits of a hospital's bottom line. No way, no how.
Hospitals are regulated out the ass. They have to follow some of the strictest guidelines handed down from the fed and from the state. If they don't follow them to a T, they are hugely fined. The industries that are NOT regulated are the equipment manu's and the pharma industry. Their revenues go up and the hospitals MUST pay their extortion rates or else the hospital can't compete. If the hospital can't compete, there are no patients. No patients - the hospital closes.
Note this, too. Hospitals constantly lose money because they are BY LAW required to service everyone that comes in an emergency room. If the person can't pay, guess who eats that cost? Not you. Not me. The hospital eats it. BY LAW. Don't tell me that Michael Moore's film, where the woman's daughter died, is contradictory to this because SHE HAD HEALTHCARE. I'm talking about those who DON'T. Those people who don't have healthcare get serviced and if they don't pay, they simply don't pay. Period.
In addition, let's say you're on Medicare. You need a hip replacement. The hospital must pay, say $2000 for the titanium hip for YOU. Medicare pays the hospital $790 for your stay. THE HOSPITAL JUST LOST ALL THAT MONEY. Never mind that the hip replacement for YOU is a fixed cost that can't be negotiated by ANYONE, the hospital just lost money because of you. Hospitals are NOT huge dramatic profit centers sucking the system dry. Not by a longshot.
Don't just rip on hospitals. They're victims in this healthcare debacle just as the rest of us are.
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» RE: Don't Get Duped: Hospitals
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Don't Get Duped: Hospitals
Posted by: CatDad
» And by "hospital" you mean whom? If staff were hurting, they'd support change. Why don't they?
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Don't Get Duped: Hospitals
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Because collection agencies use fraudulent phone #s to train new people.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Because collection agencies use fraudulent phone #s to train new people.
Posted by: bornxeyed
Comments are closed-
Posted by: picket on Jul 28, 2007 11:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now for the middle class..hope grandma is retired and knows how to cook nutritious meals and can give some good advice. Otherwise.....I'm so sorry.
United States Dept of Agriculture [ USDA ] has too much political pressure from Food Production Associations and other Wall Street markets to really care about the health of
middle Americans. Check out the controversy re the old Food Guide Pyramid and the new 2005 MyPyramid @ Harvard School of Public Health..Dept of Nutrition...Nutrition Source.
"Aside from not smoking the most important determinants of good health are what we eat and how active we are."
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» RE: BUT IT TASTES SO GOOD............
Posted by: vultureculture
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Posted by: BobbyGreyFriar on Jul 28, 2007 1:50 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just finished Barbara Ehrenreich’s Bait and Switch, was not surprised by anything in it although it is apparent that the outlook is bleak indeed for those who wish remain employed at middle-class income levels, let alone expect to have any kind of job security or health coverage. But her conclusion suggests, what I’ve suspected for a while now (and has been anticipated at least since Marx in the 19th century), that capitalism, or what we call capitalism at any rate (the market economy, i.e.), is moribund. This raises a question: If this is indeed the case, will the whole thing collapse completely or will it transmutate into something else, a kind of tyranny ruled not be the truncheon but perpetual underemployment and the fear of unemployment? Perhaps one that transcends the need even for laws? One where compliance is technically voluntary but where dissent is practically impossible; reliant not on the Thought Police but inanity? It is impossible for me to see how “business as usual” can continue, the economy is increasingly unable, for nothing that has to do with lack of materiel or human resources, to take care of the population.* At present many signs suggest that the economy is self-destructing, that whole edifice will just collapse in a heap under its own weight; but if it is not, if the overall power structure can survive, it seems there is every reason to believe that will shortly find ourselves in a Dark Age bleaker than crude totalitarian world of 1984.
But what if instead the capitalism just self-destructs, as it almost did once? In the short run this will be a catastrophe for everyone and could even precipitate a nuclear war. But could it advantageous in the long run, once the rubble has been cleared? A cathartic event wringing in the millennium? I believe that this hope is widely held, but I think it is a dangerously complacent one. The reality, I believe, will be that scores of people who have hitherto been relatively prosperous will be trust to the bottom and won’t know what to do—the shock of such a radical descent would be beyond what most people could sustain. Therefore, if there is hope, it has to lie in us at last taking responsibility for ourselves. Deciding what aims are political and socially desirable and single-mindedly pursuing them, being fully prepared to confront whatever obstacles the forces of reaction will create to stop us. Idealism coupled with a hard eye on reality and the willingness to change strategy at once when a change of strategy is called for (Liberal support for the Democratic Party, who have failed to do anything other than support Republican policy, such as continuing the war on Iraq, comes to mind as an example of failed strategy. I think that creating a “third party” that takes a principled stand would be a logical next, but if that doesn’t work more “direct” forms of activism may turn out to be what’s required.).
*”And we have to find [long-term] solutions, because there is a level of macro-irrationality here that does beyond the micro-insanity of individual hiring and firing decisions: That is a massive, sickening, ongoing waste of talent, as exemplified by the taxi-driving engineer, the idle teachers and techies, the still employed people who are too crushed by anxiety to express their creativity (Ehrenreich, Bait and Switch).”
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» RE: Capitalism is Dying: Prognosis Bad
Posted by: halg
» Where were you when the cities were burning?The Green Party is right, but they'll never be President
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Where were you when the cities were burning?The Green Party is right, but they'll never be President
Posted by: halg
» The message is right. Maybe folks (enough to make a difference) will begin to listen soon enough.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Capitalism is Dying: Prognosis Bad
Posted by: Trazom
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Posted by: Watercolors on Jul 28, 2007 3:57 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: dayahka on Jul 28, 2007 4:41 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Second, a rational health-care system needs to protect people against the costs of accidents (broken bones, etc.) and other sudden illnesses, like a ruptured appendix.
The first two levels should be the focus of any reform.
It's the third level that is killing the health-care system for the rest of us (who aren't insured or aren't wealthy). A lot of the cost of health-care insurance and hospitalization comes from elective surgeries for health conditions caused by voluntary and preventable conditions. This includes heart surgeries of all kinds, surgeries and medical attention that are necessary because of smoking, drinking, and otherwise doing things that are known to cause serious health problems. This level should NOT be covered by a national health insurance system: if someone wants to smoke or drink themselves sick, then they can spend their own money to buy private insurance to cover the costs of the inevitable illnesses. It is because this level is now included in insurance and medicare costs that makes the whole system so unaffordable and wasteful.
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» RE: Three Levels of Health Care
Posted by: Trazom
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Posted by: eosrk on Jul 28, 2007 5:02 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: halg on Jul 28, 2007 10:52 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was living in Seattle.com while all this bullshit was going on. In 1998, I was looking for work and had a hard time finding work for pay -- with "pay" meaning MONEY, as opposed to worthless stock options. Thanks to then-President Clinton, I was competing with other unemployed Seattlites against zillions of H1B Visa people from India, Pakistan, and elsewhere. As if that was not enough, Clinton allowed for an "expanded" H1B Visa program in order to continue his war against American software workers making a living. I and thousands of other people got hurt by all of this. Your under-reporting it just rubs the salt in deeper.
That it took so much longer for others to wake up is a failure of the press to report events correctly. But making the hilarious claim that the dot-com bust started in 2001 makes my sides hurt too much. Please get your facts straight.
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» RE: Uh, the dot-com bust began in 1998 ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» And ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: And ...
Posted by: halg
» RE: Uh, the dot-com bust began in 1998 ...
Posted by: halg
» RE: Uh, the dot-com bust began in 1998 ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Uh, the dot-com bust began in 1998 ...
Posted by: halg
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Posted by: racetoinfinity on Jul 29, 2007 12:37 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: This comment should be on the DVD cover of "Sicko"
Posted by: racetoinfinity
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Posted by: michaeltwatson on Jul 29, 2007 2:45 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Doctors and Insurance Companies Continue to Blame the Patients
Posted by: CatDad
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Posted by: justaguy on Jul 29, 2007 3:57 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Chuckle.
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» RP wouldn't have much to say about Healthcare. It's a great example of market failure in the US!!
Posted by: yellow
» Re: Ron Paul & the "Free Market" Ideology
Posted by: CatDad
» I agree. The "Free Market" has been given a long time to accomplish many things it failed to do.
Posted by: yellow
» Society...
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Society...
Posted by: CatDad
» There's a whole big wide world out there...
Posted by: justaguy
» Not just high taxes pay for health care that's cost effective & cover all at lower per capita cost!!
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: williameon on Jul 29, 2007 6:40 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We must level the playing field.
Eliminate the Middle Man.
Axe the HMO s and insurance Companies.
We must take the Money out of politics.
Stop special interest from buying our government officials.
Break up the Media Conglomerates
A open locally owned and run, Media is essential
To the survival of our country.
Level the playing field in Politics
By public financing of all elections.
Why should Billionaires be able to buy office?
Why do they?
Where is the payoff?
Stop the Revolving door in Washington.
Ban corporate lobbyists from Government.
Change the one party ‘Corpirate’ system
To a true Multi party system.
Decentralize:
The Media Conglomerates
Manufacturing
Farming
and
Energy Production
Have a Armed Forces for defensive purposes only.
Stop Corporate Welfare!
Reinstitute all
The Bush & Co Tax breaks
Close the Loopholes.
End the Tax Shelters.
With all of these savings
Guarantee:
Fairness
Universal Health care
A Livable wage
A clean environment
Education
Housing
And
Subsidence
To all.
The richest country in the world surely can afford these things,
That our poorer neighbors easily provide.
Stop Bullying the World.
Let’s start acting Compassionate
Good Deeds are a lot stronger than empty rhetoric.
Take care of our own first.
We are measured by how we treat the least amongst us.
The Poor
Homeless
And
The Sick!
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Posted by: Sushi on Jul 29, 2007 9:06 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This means is that all the pay-raises we should have gotten in our paychecks have gone to the health insurance industry. (OK, and to Exxon/Shell/Chevron) And probably not even to the workers in the industry, but to the exectutives who run the insurance companies. What say we co-pay our premiums and see how they like that deal? They pay half our premiums in exchange for them paying half our claims. We are not even getting what we pay for, folks. They muddy the waters with small-print and made-up terminology with twisted logic (Pre-existing? Is that like pre-pregnant?) and walk away with our earnings. They are selling promises and not coming through. Health care would not be so expensive if it weren't for the insurance industry. We used to pay the doctor for a $50 visit. Now we pay $400/mo for "insurance" and still have to pay a co-pay for the visit.
Perhaps people would not have so many health problems if they could eat better quality food they could afford, live less dangerous conditions and have fewer stress-related problems if we were PAID BETTER! Ya think?
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Posted by: willymack on Jul 29, 2007 9:50 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Maryanne on Jul 29, 2007 12:14 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When first admitted to the hospital with heart failure, he was totally helpless and had to be restrained in the wheel chair lest he fall. The day before we planned to bring him home, he was left unattended in the bathroom, tried to rise (he thought he was strong) fell, broke his hip, and needed surgery.
Transferred to another hospital for rehab, he continued to be restrained in wheelchair and bed, lest he fall- but again he was left unattended in the bathroom, fell, broke his other hip, and needed another surgery.
The problem was with payment. The insurance company - he had insurance as well as Medicare- had no problem paying for his surgeries, and the resultant hospitalization. They also had no problem paying for his initial hospitalization for heart failure -until he fell. According to their reasoning (!). once he fell, he had no further problems with his heart- although this had worsened as a result of the surgeries, and despite the cardiologist continuing to visit him regularly. This doctor spent hundreds of hours submitting forms in order to be paid for the continuing care he provided after the falls- and finally gave up as too cost effective for him, since it was tying up his staff.
Result of the inadequate supervision in the hospital, and the surgeries- Dad was further weakened and now confused,; he could no longer return home but was placed in a nursing home. The cardiologist never was paid. Could we sue? The cost of acquiring medical records was excessive (in the thousands of dollars). Furthermore we were informed by our attorney that should we lose the case- as was likely- we could/would be sued for frivolous court action. We could not pursue this; money would not get us our Dad back.
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» RE: Medical care and insurance
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Medial care and insurance
Posted by: PonyGirl
» RE: Medial care and insurance
Posted by: babs
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