COMMENTS: 283
Women Who Ditch Their Career for Homelife Could Be Making a Huge Mistake
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I wrote The Feminine Mistake: Are We Giving Up Too Much? because the typical reporting on the job-versus-family issue was so biased and incomplete. The media gave lots of coverage to women who quit the labor force to become full-time mothers, but they treated this decision as if it were simply a lifestyle choice. They never seemed to mention the risks of economic dependency -- or the myriad benefits of work. As a result, women were being lulled into a dangerous sense of complacency about relinquishing their financial autonomy. Why wasn't anyone telling the truth about how much they were sacrificing -- or what the consequences could be?
When I researched the subject myself, my findings made it all too clear how false that sense of security really is. Over time, most stay-at-home wives are likely to face major hardships as a result of divorce, widowhood, a spouse's unemployment or illness, or any number of other challenges. Women who abandon their careers and become financially dependent on their husbands often look back on that decision as the biggest mistake of their lives -- even women in stable, enduring marriages. I interviewed women all over the country, of every age, socio-economic level and background, but many used the exact same words to ask an angry question: "Why didn't anybody tell me what a mistake this was?"
My goal in writing The Feminine Mistake was to provide women with what I saw as one-stop-shopping that would help close this information gap. My goal was to gather into a single neat package all the financial, legal, sociological, psychological, medical, labor-force, child-rearing and other information necessary for them to protect themselves. My reporting revealed that the bad news is just as ominous as I'd feared; so many women are unaware of practical realities that range from crucial changes in the divorce laws to the difficulties of reentering the work force and the penalties they pay for taking a time-out. I devoted two chapters to financial information alone.
But the good news is just as dramatic -- and equally neglected in much of the current debate. Work confers enormous benefits in addition to a paycheck. Despite the undeniable challenges of the juggling act, working women tend to be happier and even healthier than stay-at-home moms, in ways that have been documented by a broad range of surprising medical, psychological and social science data. Their incomes give them power in their marriages and options in the larger world, not to mention opportunities that benefit their families. Women are socialized not to brag, but it's very gratifying to make money, be successful, and get recognition for your work. Like most men, many working women wouldn't even consider giving up such rewards.
As for the children's welfare, sociologists have spent decades comparing the kids of working moms with those of full-time homemakers, consistently failing to prove that the latter do better. "The research on the impact of working mothers on kids shows that there isn't any," reported sociologist Pamela Stone. And when the kids grow up, the futures of working mothers are usually brighter than those of the homemakers, who often find themselves financially stranded and bereft of viable opportunities for employment.
And yet millions of women continue to be misled by the fairy-tale version of life, in which Prince Charming comes along and takes care of you forever. Our culture programs women to believe that they can depend on a man to support them -- the classic feminine mistake -- and fails to explain how often that alluring promise is betrayed, whether by a change of heart or a heartless fate.
Naively, I assumed that once women were offered more accurate information, they would be eager to get it. After all, women aren't stupid; it's true that they've been deserting the labor force in record numbers, but surely the problem was just that unfortunate information gap. Wouldn't they want to protect their own interests by educating themselves about the dangers that lie ahead -- and to plan accordingly?
The first warning that I had misjudged the situation popped up on my computer screen as a Google alert, months before my book was published. I was thrilled to see that bloggers were already talking about The Feminine Mistake -- until I saw what they were saying. The first woman to weigh in hadn't actually read it, but she was nonetheless certain that it would serve as "an indictment on my whole life as I currently live it." She held equally firm views about the content: "I'm sure there will be pages that make me shriek in anger on all sides of the issues Bennetts raises." At least she admitted that she might be bringing some personal baggage into her critique: "Am I bothered because I have a sneaking decision (I think she meant suspicion) that I've just been called a 'mistake'?...Sadly, I think I know."
And then the final jab: "that little jealousy thing where I'm secretly hoping this author is interviewed by Katie Couric on the nightly news with lipstick on her teeth."
Equally encouraging was the woman who, after being introduced to me at a cocktail party, made a horrible face when the hostess told her about The Feminine Mistake. "I don't think I want to read it," she said, pursing her lips as if she'd just sucked a lemon. "The last thing I need is a whole book telling me why I should feel even more guilty about my life than I already do."
These days women are so defensive about their choices that many seem to have closed their minds entirely. Unfortunately this will not serve our best interests, but apparently it's preferable to facing the facts. "The Latest Polemic Against Stay-At-Home Moms!" was the headline on one recent essay about The Feminine Mistake. If this were accurate, I wouldn't mind someone complaining about it, but my book is not a polemic; it's a painstakingly reported collection of information and interviews. If you want to disagree with my conclusions, you need to address the facts on which they're based rather than acting as if these were simply matters of opinion. They're not.
But you can't tell that to the stay-at-home brigade, who are enraged that I wrote it at all. When Glamour published a brief essay adapted from the book, the magazine was inundated with furious letters denouncing me. "I am so insulted by Leslie Bennetts!" and "I am so offended by Leslie Bennetts!" were typical openers. Of course, these women hadn't read the book either, but they weren't about to let the evidence get in the way of their pre-conceived biases.
It shouldn't be news that educating ourselves can help us to make smarter choices. You wouldn't buy a car without doing some comparison shopping and researching the advantages of different options, would you? So why would you make a major life choice that could jeopardize your future without informing yourself about the risks -- and the alternatives?
And yet many stay-at-home mothers seem unwilling to do so. In my interviews, most said they didn't want to think about the problems they might encounter in the future, let alone to do any contingency planning. When I asked about the dangers of economic dependency, they bristled and insisted that bad things would never happen to them, only to other people.
Wondering whether my findings were representative, I interviewed social scientists who have studied opt-out moms, and discovered that they had found the same thing: when most women quit their jobs, the long-term risks of economic dependency aren't even on their radar screens.
"None of them talked about 'What if I end up divorced?'" reported Louise Roth, a sociologist at the University of Arizona. "They never mentioned other risk factors like death or illness or unemployment."
Among full-time homemakers, this overdeveloped capacity for denial is often accompanied by a highly combative sense of indignation about views that challenge their own. In recent years, stay-at-home moms have gone on the offensive, demanding that their choices be respected and attacking those who question them. Many people have thus been intimidated into silence -- a phenomenon I encountered with increasing frequency over the last few months. Publications whose readership includes a high proportion of working women have been very enthusiastic about covering my book. But other publications catering primarily to stay-at-home mothers are terrified of offending them, and any coverage has to be tailored to accommodate their sensitivities, real or imagined. "We don't want to upset the stay-at-home mommies," more than one editor told me in a patronizing tone of voice that suggested the conspiratorial whisper of adults who are trying not to wake the cranky children.
The same thing is happening with organizations that are interested in speaking engagements. Groups of professional women are eager to hear what I have to say, but those whose membership includes many stay-at-home mothers are afraid to risk their wrath by offering potentially upsetting information. Institutions that rely on the volunteer efforts of stay-at-home moms are particularly leery of presenting any program that might challenge their assumptions and rouse their ire. As a result, the information contained in my book is being disseminated widely among working women, but stay-at-home wives -- the ones most at risk, and therefore the ones I most wanted to reach with my findings -- are being insulated from the truth by well-meaning decision-makers who are, in my opinion, infantilizing them. Yes, it's true that women who don't work are often so defensive about their choice that they've helped to create this regrettable climate. But do they really want to be treated like children who must be shielded from distressing information?
It's as if the adult world of work and public affairs regards these self-appointed CHO's ("chief household officers," in the self-congratulatory parlance of one magazine aimed at that constituency) as somewhat dimwitted second-class citizens who aren't really up to the task of dealing with reality, which has to be left to the grown-ups. And I'm not just talking about the mommy wars; if anything, this kind of condescension about stay-at-home moms is more apparent among men than among working women.
Thus buffered from harsh realities, stay-at-home mothers can often preserve their illusions for quite a while. But over the long run, neither willful obliviousness nor a double standard that treats them like second-class citizens will save these women from the all-too-real problems I have documented in my book. The facts don't change just because you refuse to look at them.
I hope I'm wrong about this. Maybe the stay-at-home moms will devour the information in The Feminine Mistake and debate my findings in their book clubs. Maybe some of them will even reconsider their choices and start making more sensible plans for the future than relying on the blithe assumption that there will always be an obliging husband around to support them.
But judging by the opening salvos, I wouldn't bet the whole suburban Colonial on it.
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Posted by: SavageDissension on Apr 16, 2007 1:01 AM
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» This is not simple identity politics
Posted by: zyxwvut
» RE: This is not simple identity politics
Posted by: hms2004
» RE: This is not simple identity politics
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: This is not simple identity politics
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: This is not simple identity politics
Posted by: redjenny
» RE: This is not simple identity politics
Posted by: EncinoM
» And have to pay them even if they don't have the money...
Posted by: medstudgeek
» RE: And have to pay them even if they don't have the money...
Posted by: EncinoM
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Posted by: HughScott on Apr 16, 2007 2:50 AM
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After Saturday's stalking article, that's all I have to say.
Hugh "Got His Ass Kicked by the Ladies Saturday" Scott -- editor of King-George.biz -- the only website with hardcopy proof of White House corruption.
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» RE: Any woman who gives up her career for a man is nuts...
Posted by: flairndip
» RE: Any woman who gives up her career for a man is nuts...
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» I agree . . . omg
Posted by: off-the-radar 2
» Thanks for the kudo, off-the-radar 2. Without humor, I wouldn't have lived so long (I'm 71)...
Posted by: HughScott
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Posted by: Michael LaFlow on Apr 16, 2007 3:13 AM
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» RE: The man is nuts, too
Posted by: Rixblix
» RE: The man is nuts, too
Posted by: JCR
» RE: The man is nuts, too
Posted by: zing
» RE: The man is nuts, too
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: The man is nuts, too
Posted by: brigid
» RE: The man is nuts, too
Posted by: brigid
» RE: The man is nuts, too
Posted by: astockton
» RE: The man is nuts, too
Posted by: tamsin
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Posted by: Smartcookie on Apr 16, 2007 3:31 AM
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I grew up with both parents who lived at work, and let me tell you it was no picknick. I was a latchkey kid and to be frank most people aren't good parents to begin with, they have no clue how to raise kids. It's small wonder most people turn out such screwed up children because they are screwed up and indoctrinated themselves.
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» RE: ight... as a child of two career parents...
Posted by: hellofriends
» Making money is the highest virtue
Posted by: theracerace
» RE: Making money is the highest virtue
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Making money is the highest virtue
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: Making money is the highest virtue
Posted by: plantsareneat
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Apr 16, 2007 4:16 AM
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But you make it sound like it's required reading, and that you have been put down here on earth to save everyone.
This article sounds like an ego trip and self-promotion to me.
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Posted by: H_H on Apr 16, 2007 4:28 AM
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...and yet, during the Welfare Reform debates of the 1990s, I recall hearing feminists argue that women on welfare are not "financially dependent" on anyone, but are plucky and tough from being on their own.
More simply put:
Getting financial support from a loving husband makes women dependent and weak.
Getting financial support from an uncaring government bureaucracy makes women independent and spunky.
Normal people would find this logic to be obtuse, but there is a crucial difference: In the latter situation, there are no eeeeevil men around, therefore by feminist logic it's a better arrangement.
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» RE: "dependence" apparently depends on who gives what
Posted by: Devan
» RE: "dependence" apparently depends on who gives what
Posted by: H_H
» RE: "dependence" apparently depends on who gives what
Posted by: hms2004
» RE: "dependence" apparently depends on who gives what
Posted by: H_H
» To the obviously bitter men responding here - leave and get a room
Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: To the obviously bitter men responding here - leave and get a room
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» What a clever wag you are
Posted by: H_H
» "Spunky" isn't a Feminist Word ... and that's not a Feminist position
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» Well, do feel free to paraphrase, interpret, and make the rules too ...
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» A few of you also seem to take dim views of families with heterosexual men in them
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: cyclone2525 on Apr 16, 2007 4:32 AM
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» Same Experience
Posted by: lynned2002
» RE: Same Experience
Posted by: redjenny
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Posted by: starhelix on Apr 16, 2007 5:02 AM
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The thing that riles most folks, including me, is Ms. Bennetts' cold reliance on the money issue. Money is the No. 1 reason why relationships fail at every level. As long as the conversation is focused on money rather than love, no relationship is safe. Of course, America's business world isn't family friendly, except for the Ruling Class. However, things are changing -- slowly. The sudden rise of marriage partner search companies indicates the difficulties people are having finding suitable mates who are willing to make the proper commitments. This isn't because people don't want to do the right thing. It's because we've lost the genuine sense of what it takes to make a family and a community. The Mommie-track-is-madness-track is the wrong argument. The real question is: Why are people finding it so hard to FALL IN LOVE, get married, have kids and live their lives into old age without arguing over money? The real issue is: Do we want to build families on love, respect and commitment or do we want to build them on cold, corporate control? People are starting to see the light and are opting out of the corporate model. May God bless them for making the better choice.
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» RE: Mommie Track Is Madness Track? This Is A False Inference!
Posted by: Devan
» RE: Mommie Track Is Madness Track? This Is A False Inference!
Posted by: starhelix
» RE: Mommie Track Is Madness Track? This Is A False Inference!
Posted by: sweetblasphomy
» RE: Mommie Track Is Madness Track? This Is A False Inference!
Posted by: hms2004
» "I won't read Ms. Bennetts' book . . ."
Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: Mommie Track Is Madness Track? This Is A False Inference!
Posted by: quitecontrary
» RE: Mommie Track Is Madness Track? This Is A False Inference!
Posted by: astockton
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Posted by: Urstrly on Apr 16, 2007 5:05 AM
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A few widows worked to research the causes of the attacks and were savagedly set upon by the right wing harpies, but I often wonder about the others and what they are doing now. No matter how much wealth your spouse produces, spending it is not a career.
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» RE: emembering 9/11
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: Devan on Apr 16, 2007 5:11 AM
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» No friends?
Posted by: slydad
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Posted by: Beck on Apr 16, 2007 5:46 AM
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I remember reading that housewives have double the cancer rate of working women; one of Dr. Bernie Siegel's books, I think. And it was thought that they were around too many cleaning chemicals. Then he wondered if professional cleaning women wouldn't have an even higher cancer rate, because they'd be exposed at work and at home, but found that they had the same lower cancer rate as working women. The author proposed the idea that cancer is a disease of falseness, that a life of feeling like you're playing a role makes you more suseptible, and in interviewing patients who were housewives, he found this to be common. I did both, raising my son, and found staying at home to be lonely and isolating, but I was certainly glad that when I did start to work, it was satisfying work and only part time.
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» Stress -> Crappy Immune System -> Cancer
Posted by: medstudgeek
» Bernie Siegel, MD: "Love, Medicine, & Miracles" page 81, paperback edition. You're welcome again!
Posted by: Beck
» My numbers were wrong, though: it says 157 % higher cancer rate for housewives vs. working women
Posted by: Beck
» RE: Our society could do much better, if it cared about kids as much as it claims
Posted by: annamargaret1866
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Posted by: Bobsays on Apr 16, 2007 5:48 AM
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To tell any woman that her life is over because she had a child and stayed at home for a few years is to perpetuate the myth that work will make you free ('arbeiten machst frei' as Hitler used to say). Work does not make you free, and especially living for a career with a big blue chip does not make you free. You are a disposable tool, nothing more.
I have none women who have flamed and been pushed down the ladder despite having no kids. I have known women who have done fine having kids and then returning to the workforce. You can never predict what the economy will be up to in five years time. Here are some examples: you leave to have a kid, and then re-enter the workforce at the kick-off the dot com boom. Labour shortaged mean you are hired straight away: no questions asked. Or you are a former security expert and then want to get back to work just after 9/11 - you have Blackwater beating your door down. See? Anything can happen.
This woman is the kind of woman who wants to turn the world into a planet of frigid dykes and lonely latchkey children. Not a pretty place I am afraid.
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» RE: This is totally wrong
Posted by: nise52
» "Sounds like you're intimidated by strong, articulate, intelligent women."
Posted by: russianblue1
» alot of them are
Posted by: Beck
» Translation - angry, belligerent, hostile women no one wants
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: Translation - angry, belligerent, hostile women no one wants
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: Translation - angry, belligerent, hostile women no one wants
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» The femiphobes always describe themselves, while finding these articles irresistible
Posted by: Beck
» RE: This is totally wrong
Posted by: hms2004
» RE: This is totally wrong
Posted by: techphile
» Why don't more MEN don't opt out of the Career Trap ?
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: Why don't more MEN don't opt out of the Career Trap ?
Posted by: sweetblasphomy
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Posted by: sdoboze on Apr 16, 2007 6:01 AM
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It is a human right, for [at least] one parent [at a time], to give their full direct attention, to children.
Children need adequate attention - this book would be an example of wasted ink, because it clearly fails to include the realistic conclusions these women have such hardship.
1.7 Billion U.S. Dollars a day, taxes paid BY these [men] who work, distributed as subsidies among committees of all the U.S./U.K. parenting mothers, goes much farther than 'the war on terror'. Jeffery Sachs BBC.CO.UK lecture. Giving them free 'cheese product' and food stamps is a worthless exercise in PR futility.
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» Don't subsidize the one thing doing the most damage to the globe -- reproduction
Posted by: janvdb
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Posted by: Aimee on Apr 16, 2007 6:10 AM
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Those who enjoy there lives with children, more power to them - just don't wish it on everyone else. It is a big mistake.
Aimee
DataOptions.com
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» RE: My Mother and I agreed: we would not have had children
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: My Mother and I agreed: we would not have had children
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: My Mother and I agreed: we would not have had children
Posted by: wisewebwoman
» More power to them.. but its a big mistake.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: More power to them.. but its a big mistake.
Posted by: bubbleburster04
» So basically... our society is hostile to parenthood. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Can you say it ISN'T ... ???
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: More power to them.. but its a big mistake.
Posted by: Aimee
» RE: More power to them.. but its a big mistake.
Posted by: Aimee
» In other words, your mother was sorry you existed?
Posted by: chief of okeefe
» RE: In other words, your mother was sorry you existed?
Posted by: Aimee
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Posted by: BetteM on Apr 16, 2007 6:10 AM
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The take-away from this book is....women need to carefully review their financial situation..for now and in the future ..with or without spouse/family. It is unfortunate that despite 30 years of women entering the work place, and despite the acceleration of women with advanced degrees inMD, engineering, law.. there STILL exists a bias against women. Just check out the minute number of women CEO's in Fortune 500 Company.
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Posted by: xenacat on Apr 16, 2007 6:23 AM
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» Sorry, but children DO benefit from having a parent around rather than being in daycare.nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Sorry, but children DO benefit from having a parent around rather than being in daycare.nm
Posted by: hellofriends
» Ah yes... what no one will talk about.. the fact that WORK SUCKS!!!!!
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» You said it, you believe it, that settles it?
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: Sorry, but children DO benefit from having a parent around rather than being in daycare.nm
Posted by: kuro_neko
» You are so right
Posted by: janvdb
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Posted by: Deb C on Apr 16, 2007 6:24 AM
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I realize that many parents have to work to stay a float in this economy but that is different than the person working a 50+ hour week climbing the career ladder. I experience many parents today coming to their senses and being creative about work. Some are working from home or one parent working part time. Some parents are understanding what is really important in life, and it's not climbing the career ladder and staying on the treadmill of work and spend.
We will have much more sanity in this world when we understand that the job of a parent is one of the most important jobs you will ever hold. Changing a diaper may not be glamorus but it's nurturing and loving, and that is worth a million dollars.
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» Treating patients in a clinic for colds, diabetes, arthritis.....
Posted by: mjabele
» Actually, outpatient medicine is on the 'saintly' side of the profession as it exists now...
Posted by: medstudgeek
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Posted by: mjabele on Apr 16, 2007 6:26 AM
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Women who've made the choice to stay at home immediately seem to bridle when this point is raised - "What could be a more important than raising the next generation of children?" is the usual thing I hear. Well, as the father of two children, I don't doubt that's important - but I also think it's a terrible waste of intellect and creativity to consign half of the adult population to doing one task only, while leaving the other half to determine, more or less by default, the technological, economic, legal, and political parameters of the world these children will grow into.
Some stay-at-home moms have made the argument that they participate in volunteer activities in addition to taking care of their children, but I still think these women inevitably lose a signficant degree of influence over the shape of our future world by not participating more fully in actual careers.
The big question, I suppose, is how to actually generate the necessary time and freedom for women to pursue careers, while at the same time ensuring that our children are raised in caring and nurturing environments. As things stand now, there's an unspoken assumption among most employers that younger women will at some point want to take time out or limit their hours in some way to accommodate children, but that younger men will NOT be asking for or needing these things. My feeling is that it's actually the latter part of the assumption that really needs to change at this point. In order for women to participate more fully in the actual "business of running the world", if you will, men will need to retreat somewhat from that role. My guess is that many men won't actually mind that as much as one might think - a lot of us feel rather cut off from the "business of running the home", if you will. But we also sense that we're not in a position to ask for such "privileges" from our employers - and that current social (and corporate) expectations don't really support the idea of men working less in order to spend more time at home.
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» RE: conomic concerns strike me as only part of the story with regard to women in the workplace...
Posted by: nsm33
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Posted by: Jharyn on Apr 16, 2007 6:28 AM
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God forbid a woman actually plays a part in raising her own kids. Women like this author don't deserve the joy of being a parent.
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» RE: More American female garbage
Posted by: nise52
» RE: More American female garbage
Posted by: Megz
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Posted by: www.suekatz.com on Apr 16, 2007 6:28 AM
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» RE: Nice to have choices
Posted by: Bozwell
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Posted by: nise52 on Apr 16, 2007 6:33 AM
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Husband #2 and I have been married for 25 yrs. We raised a daughter (I worked the whole time). When she was small I felt the pangs of regret that most mothers have but I knew if I stayed home we couldn't put decent food on the table. I like fresh salads and meats...not Ramen noodles for dinner. We live in a mobile home and drive older cars so we're not the country club set.
Five years ago I was diagnosed with a chronic (gets worse...no cure) medical condition and had to quit working. I was approved for Social Security Disability BECAUSE I had worked right up to the onset of the condition. Within 24 months I became eligible for Medicare health benefits. So now, because I worked all of my adult life (like most men) I have a small monthly income and health benefits.
Stay-at-home moms receive NONE of this because American society glorifies mothers only one day a year (Mother's Day) so it can SELL something to her family.
There was a saying in the early 1970's (when feminism was born)...."Never produce more children than what you (the woman) can raise by yourself"....
It's true...because the odds are that sooner or later YOU will have to raise them yourself and you had better have a job!
D H Plain City
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» RE: Amen, Amen, Amen....
Posted by: hms2004
» RE: Amen, Amen, Amen....
Posted by: dangerouslysane
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Posted by: ahimsanow on Apr 16, 2007 6:33 AM
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I am a middle class woman and mother of two sons (24 and 17) who has not worked outside the home for 25 years and have thoroughly enjoyed my life with my family and my husband of 34 years.
I am not economically dependent on my working husband, who would love to stay home, too! His earnings are our earnings. We share bank accounts and have equal say about how our money is spent and saved.
We embraced simplicity and rejected the ways of our decadent materialistic culture more than 30 years ago. Today, I am primarily a peace and environmental activist, with enough time to read and research the big issues facing our times -- Peak Oil, climate change, coming economic collapse, etc.
Pursue your dreams and give your life to noble causes (such as full-time motherhood!), not just to making a dollar.
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» The point is, careers are NOT just about making a dollar.....
Posted by: mjabele
» Most careers are about money.
Posted by: medstudgeek
» More capitalist/empire materialistic culture rubbish
Posted by: theracerace
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Posted by: heid on Apr 16, 2007 6:41 AM
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Because of it, she was utterly miserable, could not relate to other stay-at-home wives with interests that didn't go beyond soap operas and what was the best detergent. She had no means of dealing with a horribly abusive husand. When her youngest had reached the late teens, she discovered that, in spite of her incredible resume from years before, no one wanted her as an employee. She was considered worthless, since she was an older woman. And she had no way out from a miserable marriage.
Aside from the fact that my own life would have been ever so much better had my mother been able to leave her abusive husband - as abusive husbands are usually also abusive fathers - I've little doubt that the real reason she died at age 58 was from a sense of hopelessness. What's stated on the death certificate simply cannot capture the reality of a life destroyed.
The author of this book has written something that every young woman needs to read and take to heart. If you don't have economic clout in this society, then you have nothing.
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» RE: My mother made that mistake.
Posted by: Sunfell
» RE: My mother made that mistake.
Posted by: JMorse
» Here is another mistake-- passing up decent men to marry jerks
Posted by: chief of okeefe
» Works both ways, chief
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: BeckyD on Apr 16, 2007 6:50 AM
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I've been at home, full time, part time during various parts of our children's lives and I don't regret the time I spent at home one bit. I didn't worry about death because we made certain to have adequate insurance on my husband and savings reserves before I stopped working. I didn't worry about divorce because, in addition to trusting my husband, I knew I had the education and skillsets to support myself if necessary. Making a choice to stay home is like making any other choice in life - there are tradeoffs and risks, and it shouldn't be undertaken lightly or without careful planning and consideration.
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» In the working world, we're all replaceable
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Apr 16, 2007 6:53 AM
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» RE: Ahimsanow has the right idea!
Posted by: bookie
» RE: Ahimsanow has the right idea!
Posted by: dangerouslysane
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Posted by: faultroy on Apr 16, 2007 7:03 AM
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Furthermore, though unsaid, so does the male--even more so than the female-- for he is required to provide not only child/household support, but also financial support for the woman if she is not able to maintain the household in the manner that she lived in prior to the divorce. This article is insulting in that it addresses the concerns of very few working women. Bennett implies that all women are in high powered high paying jobs and as a result, any downtime in their careers is rewarded with a recuced income and decreased promotional mobility. While this may be true with certain high powered careers, most women do not fall into this category and consequently her arguments are not germane to the average working woman. Most women are in middle to lower paying jobs. It wouldn't really matter if an office worker took time off to rear her children as opposed to lets say a corporate VP.
Bennett says, "...working women tend to be happier and healthier than stay at home moms..." Really? I don't know of any studies that substantiate this claim. And if there are any, I would seriously question the methodology. I know from empirical evidence that most women having babies really feel guilty having to work a 40 plus hour week. And I do not know of any families that enjoy having someone else take care of their child and watch them grow up. As a matter of fact, all the studies I have seen indicate that Mothers are totally frazzled and burning the candle at both ends just to keep up with the Joneses. And for the privilege of working a full time job and having some semblance of home life, they take less demanding jobs, and forgo equal pay with men in similar jobs in order to have the flexibility to care and nurture their children. Furthermore all the studies I have seen on infant developmental growth substantiate the fact the infants and small children obtain greater developmental growth through active participation and interacton with its biological parents. And studies of preschoolers indicate that they are more psychologically mature and confident with more and greater parental interaction once they begin school.
Bennett also makes the case of Childrens' welfare in general, and states that "...sociologists spent decades camparing kids of working moms to that of full time stay at home moms consistently failing to prove the latter children do better..." --than what? Perhaps these sociologists would like to compare the crime statistics with those of latch key kids: the drug use of children left to fend for themselves because women are out working and are not able to devote the time to properly care for their children. Or for that matter the consistently dwindling educational test scores since the sixties. There has been a dramatic rise in all levels of crime since the sixties when moms stayed at home--look up the FBI Uniform Crime Statistics for the past 40 years if you think I am incorrect.
How many upper class white gangs do we have in this country compared to Mexican American Gangs/ Black Gangs and the violence, drug use and disease that goes along with it?
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» good point
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: good point
Posted by: ankhet
» ankhet, good point but...
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
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Posted by: JoeJacobs on Apr 16, 2007 7:10 AM
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as a man who stayed home for the first few years of my son's life while my partner worked full-time, i can unequivocably say that it was a wonderful time for my son and me.
Now he is in full-time daycare and I once again work full-time.
People should have the right to make the best decisions for themselves personally, whatever that combination is and whatever their circumstances without being judged as if there is only one way in which the universe must work!
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» The danger of supposedly "objective" right and wrong
Posted by: kevred
» RE: The danger of supposedly "objective" right and wrong
Posted by: JoeJacobs
» Nothing wrong with the right to choose.....
Posted by: mjabele
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Posted by: notinKansas on Apr 16, 2007 7:24 AM
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But that's just me. I understand that one size does not fit all.
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» RE: Women already know the risks
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: Women already know the risks
Posted by: notinKansas
» RE: Women already know the risks
Posted by: dangerouslysane
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Posted by: VannaLaRoche on Apr 16, 2007 7:24 AM
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Of course, she had the child because she had to Have The Experience. It was always about her.
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» better mom
Posted by: bookie
» I don't like reading about people like that, but I've know a few housewives who had the same idea
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: alphakat on Apr 16, 2007 7:28 AM
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SAHM's won't read this book because their worst fears may be realized. (that being a SAHM isn't all it's cracked up to be) Considering 50% of marriages end in divorce, counting on your man to finance you forever is foolish at best.
Also, if we truly valued motherhood as much as we always give lipservice to in this country, we wouldn't make it such a hardship. (family medical leave is a joke for example)
"I have yet to hear a man ask for advice on how to combine marriage and a career." -Gloria Steinem-
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» The Agency of Stay at Home Mothers
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: The Agency of Stay at Home Mothers
Posted by: JoeJacobs
» Interesting that you defend your side just as vehemently.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: sacred cow
Posted by: alphakat
» RE: sacred cow
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Facts won't help. These moms must believe they were right...
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: tlCampbell on Apr 16, 2007 7:32 AM
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"The Feminine Mistake: Are We Giving Up Too Much?"
The feminine mistake. Looking at this part alone, it's just one more verbal smack to the face as "woman, you've screwed up yet again," regardless if this was the intention of the author or not.
"Are we giving up too much?" This may come across as confusing because it's saying we've made all this progression in life but now our actions are considered sacrificial. Keep in mind, this is after you consider potential readers and their specific context. Stay-at-home mothers, for example, will be apt to become defensive as you're attacking their decision to stay at home, and working women may perceive the stay-at-home option as an implied negative and thus creating another limit for women.
Granted, I am not a professional in human studies but what I do know is that we women can interpret a seemingly simple sentence in several different ways, which also varies from woman to woman, so this may be why the negative rush from those who've never even read the book.
I realize that the intention of the author is to actually lay everything out on the line when a woman is deciding whether to stay at home or to work and be a mother but the title of the book has become a serious roadblock for the messenger.
As far as I'm concerned, I'd be interested in reading it as I am currently a stay-at-home mom but also a full-time student, where I'm at now may not have as much of an effect as someone who is only staying at home.
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Posted by: melissa999 on Apr 16, 2007 7:42 AM
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'I interviewed women all over the country, of every age, socio-economic level and background, but many used the exact same words to ask an angry question: "Why didn't anybody tell me what a mistake this was?"'
and
"And yet millions of women continue to be misled by the fairy-tale version of life, in which Prince Charming comes along and takes care of you forever. Our culture programs women to believe that they can depend on a man to support them -- the classic feminine mistake -- and fails to explain how often that alluring promise is betrayed, whether by a change of heart or a heartless fate."
The author is merely pointing out that many (not all) women feel misled by our society, which often spends every advertising dollar pushing a message of "get married and all your problems (financial or otherwise) will be solved. This scenario truly is a myth. Having children for many women is a one-way ticket to a life of poverty. Is this fair? Not really, but last time I checked, we don't live in a fair world. It would be nice if everyone who decided to have children could afford them, but that's not always the case. It would also be nice if every marriage would work out. And if only we could all eat chocolate cake every meal and never gain weight!
It doesn't mean that you can't make it work, it just means that you better have a plan in case the marriage doesn't work, which 50% of the time, it does not.
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Posted by: MacD on Apr 16, 2007 7:45 AM
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Posted by: nellie blogger on Apr 16, 2007 7:58 AM
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My mother worked from the 50's through the 70's, and as her daughter I had nothing but admiration for her. She was an excellent role model for responsibility, self-reliance, and competence. And my dad's image didn't suffer because she was working. I admired both my parents very deeply.
I'm not knocking women to stay at home to rear children, or saying that the same admirable qualities don't emanate from stay-at-home moms. Rearing children is the most important thing we do, in my opinion. But I think, too often, women view child-rearing as their only honorable vocation. It shouldn't be.
And I don't think the choice to stay at home or the choice to stay at work should be judged as a failed moral decision by anyone--on either side. Each is a personal choice to meet personal needs. I thinks it's important to show that there are women who are happier at work and whose children grow up just as well adjusted. The feminist backlash has tried to bury that reality. It's time to validate women who make either choice.
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» RE: A controversial view that counters the feminist backlash
Posted by: pdxstudent
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Posted by: pdxstudent on Apr 16, 2007 7:59 AM
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It's important to consider the immense cultural pressure for women, for all people, to act in a certain way, fulfill certain ideological roles, so that they can feel like whole people. People want to make the faux-third wave gesture of "it's all about women's choice!" and yet they assume that there is absolutely no question of whether it's really a woman's choice. Taken to the level of class, it obvious effects men too, but also women who are supposedly choosing to become workers. I don't think you can write a book like what this seems to be about without walking hand-in-hand with a debate over what we mean by choice when we say women choose one lifestyle over another.
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» RE: The Agency of Stay at Home Mothers (I meant to make this a fresh, new post)
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: The Agency of Stay at Home Mothers (I meant to make this a fresh, new post)
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» Simmer down, asshole.
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Simmer down, asshole.
Posted by: JCR
» No, they say, "uh huh a huh a huh"
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: hellofriends on Apr 16, 2007 8:24 AM
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it reminds me of the debate over women and sports. women, who have been historically left out of the sports thing, want to prove that they can be just as tough and athletic and cold and successful as men who play sports. if you read about the history of modern sports, you'll see that the culture came out of British "white man's burden" imperialism. directly and explicitly British schools indoctrinated young middle-upper class white males to become gritty "sports" in order to rule over the savage races and become good Indian Officials and Men of Empire.
in female athletes desire to prove they can become more like male 'sports," they forget that sports was founded upon a deliberately sexist and racist ethos.
anyway, my goal in life is to find a practical way out of this messy system that is ruining the rest of the world and leaving americans depressed and anxious, rather than spiking up my resume and moving up the careerist ladder.
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» Naive AND ahisorical ...
Posted by: AdamSelene40
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Posted by: Lincoln fan on Apr 16, 2007 8:47 AM
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I think that next week Alternet could have an article about women who gave up marriage and children for a career and are unhappy. I'll bet if you polled schoolteachers you'd find many who wished that they'd pursued a career in ballet.
Bob Reichenbach,
Director, The Lincoln Initiative.
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» RE: Human Nature
Posted by: JoeJacobs
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Posted by: Deb C on Apr 16, 2007 8:50 AM
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Let's put our energy into real equality and not this idea of my way is the only way kind of thinking. We raise hell about those on the right who are saying your either with us or against us bull, yet this book sounds the same trumpet about women and their decisions about their lives.
Capitalist society seems to have co-opted the liberal side as well when it comes to valuing jobs. If we are really about equality, then we need to be valuing and working for equailty in all of our decisions, not just those that this author appears to promote. This book gives us black and white, either/or thinking. The very attitude that we oppose in those on the extreme right.
Let's quit the, I'm right, your wrong, baloney. We all have value in whatever decisions we make about our choices as parents. I am not for dictating, either from the Right or the Left on how anyone should live their lives. There's enough of that bull already. Let's stop the polarity that causes separation and give voice to real equailty that creates a true democracy.
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» RE: Isn't there enough of this either/or thinking and dictating parent's choices?
Posted by: JoeJacobs
» You can't eat "being valued equally" -- or are you talking about using taxes to pay mothers?
Posted by: janvdb
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Posted by: Lincoln fan on Apr 16, 2007 8:59 AM
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Bob Reichenbach,
Director, The Lincoln Initiative.
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Posted by: janvdb on Apr 16, 2007 9:08 AM
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Women need to make informed choices with full regard for the probabilities of divorce, disability, failure of husband's career, husband's development of depression, etc.
Just loading women with bogus, unscientific guilt about "the needs of children" is totally irresponsible and wrong.
Research has should that children DO NOT BENEFIT from all this neurotic over-attention. We all know that it damages women.
Why does it continue?
Because it benefits MEN.
Obviously.
Jan VanDenBerg
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» RE: Hurray for this book!!
Posted by: erikacarlson
» RE: Hurray for this book!!
Posted by: MAD
» RE: Hurray for this book!!
Posted by: H_H
» RE: Hurray for this book!!
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: pierre1999 on Apr 16, 2007 9:11 AM
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» Feedback from a fellow stay-at-home dad
Posted by: dtillisch
» No.....
Posted by: mjabele
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Posted by: CJC on Apr 16, 2007 9:12 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think much of the hoo rah and discussion here and in the public discourse at large is beside the point. Women who stay home and who have abusive husbands are much more disadvantaged by their choice of spouse and their own inability/unwillingness to get out from under than whether they stay home or work.
And the choice to continue to work or stay home full-time with children is available only to some women. Many mothers work out of frank financial necessity and have no opportunity to "choose" not to.
Other women make the choice by deciding not to have children at all. This raises the point about the rigidity of our working environments where child care is expensive and/or of poor quality, where part-time work is hard to arrange, where professional career tracks often make it almost impossible for the ambitious to take any time off at all. I know of several physicians, for example, whose ability to keep working full tilt has been enabled by their mothers' being able to babysit and help out whenever necessary. Or women put off childbearing to their late 30's. Delaying childbearing leads sometimes to expensive and time-consuming efforts to become pregnant, or no chance to have a child after all etc etc.
We all should spend less time arguing with each other about the choices we make, for better or worse, and more time focusing on the overall work environment and government policies that constrain and not enable choices. France, for example, has publicly supported day care for even very young children, and more families there have more children than, say, in Germany where day care is harder to arrange and there is a public attitude hostile to young mothers' working.
We need more solidarity on collective action and less blaming of each other for how we make choices.
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» RE: Who's limiting our choices?
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: Who's limiting our choices?
Posted by: CJC
» RE: Who's limiting our choices?
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: Who's limiting our choices?
Posted by: CJC
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Posted by: janvdb on Apr 16, 2007 9:33 AM
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Jan VanDenBerg
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Posted by: erikacarlson on Apr 16, 2007 9:42 AM
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Personally, I realized that I would only be seeing my child for about 2 hours a day...so what was the point of having a child if someone else sees them more than I do? Did I have a child just to hand them over to someone else to raise?
I believe that kids at 3 months old (or even six weeks as some day care centers have) are not ready to be away from their main caretaker (mom or dad). They need that secure attachment to a parent or loved one, not a roulette of caretakers who are paid next to nothing. I know, I've been one of those caretakers, and it is impossible to give the attention to each child that they need!
So I've decided not to work (at least full-time) for probably 5-6 years, until both our kids are old enough to be in preschool. And this is the best decision for our family, and for me! And contrary to the author's view, I have considered all the options, and the trade-offs. We just think this is the best!
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» RE: What everyone seems to have ignored...
Posted by: MAD
» There is, of course, the option of the father staying at home.....
Posted by: mjabele
» Your ability to see into other people's lives is woefully limited.....
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Your ability to see into other people's lives is woefully limited.....
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» Hmmm, but the details of someone else's.....
Posted by: mjabele
» yes, let us know. We will certainly believe you.
Posted by: Beck
» I Hope Your Children Know...
Posted by: pdxstudent
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Posted by: willymack on Apr 16, 2007 9:59 AM
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Posted by: Betsy L. Angert on Apr 16, 2007 10:02 AM
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I do not think women working or leaving their careers are making a mistake or not. As I read your musings, I am reminded of how black or white the thinking in society is.
I concur; financial autonomy is optimal.
I have read much that speaks to working parents and the toll this takes on a young child. From my own life experience, I know that the parent need not be away at a job to affect a child's sense of security and stability. They may just be busy flittering about, involved in the community, or chores, thus, leaving little time to truly connect to their offspring. I did write one missive on this and I am currently penning another.
I believe the strife we see and the joy does not correlate to a woman choosing a career in the workplace or not. For me, the manner in which we as a culture define work and allocate benefits is the truer crisis.
I have no preference for whom does the parenting. Men or women, gay or straight, younger or older, any are fine with me. I think it is vital that if people have children they must attend to them. A paid caregiver will never honor and teach a child as a parent might.
Nevertheless, I do not necessarily think it wise that only one parent take on this responsibility, while the other goes off to a job or wherever. All are depleted and out of balance when this occurs. However, the structure of the current workplace demands such a split.
I truly believe we each need to nurture creativity, curiosity, and autonomy for others and within ourselves.
If corporations and institutions did not mandate that work be completed on-site, between specified hours, families would be able to flow freely. Stress would be minimal. Currently, in many offices the level of dis-ease is high. There is much pressure when "bosses" think they need to be in control, when clocks calculate your productivity, and when benefits are contingent on strict constraints.
If people were admired and respected for the work they do in every aspect of their lives, if labor were truly shared, if those staying at home were honored and compensated for their performance, we might realize that everyone is working. Moms and Dads would share both the burdens and benefits. No one would be away from home and their loved ones for any length of time. No one would be dependent or independent. All individuals would be as nature teaches us, interdependent.
In truth, like it or not, we all are. The plight of the homeless affects the efficiency of the elite. No topic is so easily researched; nor can one choice be dismissed.
I invite you to read and reflect on some of my thoughts, my missives, and treatises. Please leave your comments. I welcome a broader discussion.
Single and Married Parents Spend More Time With Children. Much is Lost
Second-Grade Girl Attacked. "Where Were the Adults?" Everywhere!
Do Women Count? Do Men?
Live Your Life; Rest In Peace
Betsy L. Angert
BeThink.org
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Posted by: dame on Apr 16, 2007 10:24 AM
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Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on Apr 16, 2007 10:25 AM
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And some post-ers raised the good point that few parents now even have the option of permanent stay-at-home status, unless they're quite high income to begin with. I imagine this is a rarified topic for most of us here.
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Posted by: dangerouslysane on Apr 16, 2007 10:26 AM
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Apr 16, 2007 10:47 AM
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» Amen!
Posted by: rclord
» I don't think I've ever seen an article about working men neglecting their children
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Apr 16, 2007 10:47 AM
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» Ok... I'll be the one to say it...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: WHY IS EVERYONE ALLOWED TO JUDGE WOMEN ?
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» Good point. The ONLY people who think men are not judged...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: redbrownandblueparty on Apr 16, 2007 11:10 AM
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» RE: Sex + Politics
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: Sex + Politics
Posted by: bison2
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Posted by: bison2 on Apr 16, 2007 11:19 AM
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» You Don't Have Total Control Though
Posted by: pdxstudent
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Posted by: chaoslegs on Apr 16, 2007 11:23 AM
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If the author really wants to reach out to that crowd, the book must cover that topic (reducing the impact of economic dependency) also and offer solutions that won't hasten the end of a relationship.
The adapted essay in Glamour, the negative responses, and the authors complaint that they hadn't read the book, rang a little hollow for me. I assume the author signed off on the adapted essay, and if the essay conveyed the point of the book, then a criticism of it of the essay should be accepted. Yet the author seems to fall back on "they didn't read the book."
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Posted by: djnoll on Apr 16, 2007 11:29 AM
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The fact is that not much has changed in the last 45 years from what my great aunt saw, but now it is worse because it is not just the widows that are being affected, it is young mothers and housewives who find themselves out in the cold, right along with their families, because they do not understand financial matters and disaster strikes. I know - I have been there more times than I care to count due to illness and divorce. I understand finances, and I understand financial planning, but my ex did not and my doctors did not. It does not matter whether a woman stays at home (I often wish I had had the option) or whether she works, if she does not understand financial management, she is facing a tightrope without a net. Even squirreling away a little grocery money every week can go a long way towards giving a person a sense of empowerment. I take 10% of every check - Disability, paycheck, student loan - and put it in savings even today. It does mount up against bad times - like when our old van finally died last week, I had enough to put down on a 9 year old used vehicle that still is in good shape so that our payments are easy to manage. I will never be rich, but I plan for the financial worse and hope for the best, and usually, all things being equal, I come out somewhere in the middle.
This book sounds like it is good advice for anyone - male or female - about being sure that you can survive when times of financial hardship occur. For me, at the moment, I am 54 and I had to go back to school to upgrade my skills after an accident ended my job, and my husband had to go back to school as well when the same accident ended his job as well. We went from $80,000 per year to $8,000, but because I had learned the hard way that this kind of thing happens, we muddled through, even though we lost our home and our way of life, but we did not end up on the streets as I had in the past.
Too many people today do not understand that at the blink of an eye, those that they depend on - either as part of a team or individually - can die, become ill or injured, or just plain leave, and they could find themselves having to raise a child(ren) alone, no matter if they are male or female. This book sounds like it addresses a lot more than just money issues, and perhaps everyone should be reading it. What have you got to lose? A little time in exchange for some knowledge? Not a bad trade off if you ask me.
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Posted by: wisewebwoman on Apr 16, 2007 11:39 AM
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I speak from personal experience.
My mother was a talented successful woman who married my father, a rageaholic and control freak, when she was nearly thirty with pressure from her family (the good old days, hah) so she wouldn't wind up, gasp, an old maid.
In the first thirteen years of this marriage she succumbed her will and any financial indepence to my father and had seven pregnancies (thank you Vatican) six of her children survived. She developed enormous health problems, ulcers, ulcetated legs, one of the worse forms of cancer on the planet and died in excruciating pain at fifty seven.
Her dream was to live until we were all grown and she would open up a little business so she would be 'independent'. Alas that was never to be.
Her advice to me was never to give up who I was and I knew what she meant.
I loved my husband and children and he really wanted me to stay home and give up my career. I negotiated with him that I would stay home a year with each child and then go back to work with live-in help. I said my sanity was at stake, I took my mother's lesson to heart.
And I am so glad I did this. My children survived well, the marriage didn't and even though there was enormous emotional turmoil for all concerned, I had this good career on the go.
It would have been a far different matter if I had agreed to stay home. I would have been helpless financially as child support only goes to support the children.
My daughter stayed at home even though she had a successful career started and a PHd started with the plan of having four children. She was abandoned by her husband when her baby was seven months old.
I think most of us women enter marriage with the stars in our eyes and the biological urges to breed and form this loving happy unit. Sadly, this doesn't work out for 50% of us.
I'm surprised at the ire (once again) that this article engenders.
Not all of us are fulfilled solely by reproducing and caring for the product. I, for one, could never connect with babytalk. Still can't. And I'm still shocked at the level of pill-popping, gambling and alcoholism (and yes affairs with the tradespeople) that are rampant among the stay-at-home bored out of their minds 'mommies'. Check it out, fellahs.
It's time the honesty and insecurity of stay-at-home moms is brought to the table for a rational discussion. 50% of those fathers are going to leave with the upgraded slender model and fully 20% of those will never pay child support. Take care of ourselves first then we can take care of the rest of our responsibilities. It's that simple.
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» RE: The reality
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: The reality: Still staggered
Posted by: wisewebwoman
» RE: The reality: Still staggered
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: "Take care of ourselves first then we can take care of the rest..."
Posted by: dangerouslysane
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Posted by: odcherenow on Apr 16, 2007 11:52 AM
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Also, I am astounded that U.S. women - recipients of the worst maternity and child care options among the developed nations - have not risen in one voice to demand standardized social policies from our government, for whom we provide the next generation of taxpayers, FREE. Now that's foolish.
I applaud the dialogue your article raised, Leslie, about this important issue. Thank you for initiating it, upsetting though the feedback might have been.
A key question to ask is: "What interests benefit from keeping the other half mis- or un-informed? Without societal options around birth planning and child care, we have become a cheap labor force, invaluable to the aims of capitalism and profit; at home or at work trying to paste together stable family lives. Without options tailored to our sex-different needs, we are forced to make bad choices. This is not an excuse. It's a fact. Let's face it, women have the specie responsibility to birth and nurse our offspring. Many organizations use this biological potential as a reason to sideline our careers when it comes to top level succession planning. The system sees it as a loyalty issue, with women assumed to be more loyal to the family. This dualistic lens serves none of us. The unified field created by industry, traditionalist cultures, social policy strategists and media of all stripes, is in active collusion to "Keep Sleeping Beauty Asleep". IMHO, the aim is not to infantalize, but to anaesthetize girls and women. We need to wake up and take our places next to males if we are to assist the planet, and all on it, to survive.
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Posted by: Russ Wellen on Apr 16, 2007 11:57 AM
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As evidenced by how many commenters talked about their mothers staying or home or working, very few couples today, as oppsed to in their parents' more prosperous times, have the option of allowing one partner to opt out of the work force.
I am not interested in the problems of the upper middle class. They have the money to afford therapists to listen to their problems. (At least until the woman finds herself on her own, of course. Then I'll listen.)
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» RE: What Choice?
Posted by: hellofriends
» I think you raise a very valid point, but.....
Posted by: mjabele
» "three full-time incomes"
Posted by: Russ Wellen
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Posted by: ladyoracle on Apr 16, 2007 12:17 PM
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Anyway, reading this article makes me know that I am doing the right thing. Thank you!
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Posted by: brigid on Apr 16, 2007 12:36 PM
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Working outside the home to keep the home fire's burning? Please. Who's life is that?
Social Circle? After 40 + grueling hours spent at work.. I think most Mommies and Daddies are happy to have the time and/or energy just to take the kids to the park on the weekends.
For those of us that don't vacation bi-monthly in The Hamptons, have nannies, or host charity brunches with our husband's social circle...The bigger issue should be this country's broken child-care system. You are damned if you do and you are damned if you don't. We pay to work! Our children pay too! The U.S could stand to learn a thing or two from European policy when it comes to supporting families and children... AND EDUCATION.
Take a look at Norway or Ireland. Moms and Dads get 2-3 months of paid vacation! Not including several weeks of time-off designated specifically for sick children! No questions asked. ALSO, paid maternity leave up the wazoo! You do not return to work until your child is one year old. And you are paid in-full for that entire year. To add, the maternity leave pay can go to the father, should the family so wish.
In some European Countries and New Zealand for example, a monthly stipend is given out to ALL FAMILIES. Regardless of how rich or poor they are. It is based only on the amount of children you have. It is not Welfare. It is not the Dole.
Now you tell me, would this help Woman's Plight to maintain Independence? You bet it would.
We could all work and still maintain a happy abode at home. Without feeling that we are short-changing ourselves, our children or our husbands.
Working solely to provide for child-care... What sense does that make? Although I know it is an issue challenging the minds of every one in my "social circle." Picking apart a woman's decision to work or stay home will not get us anywhere. Where are the women writing books for social / economic reform in this country. Now that might be worth reading for a Feminist like me... Who is not interested in grim for-cast that heed daunting prophecies with no real resolution.
We need to start demanding help. Lord knows the men won't.
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» thank you!
Posted by: Laplandi
» Ditto!
Posted by: rclord
» RE: Ditto!
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: Ghoulman on Apr 16, 2007 1:05 PM
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I know of at least one woman stupid enough to write this sentence.
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Posted by: hever79 on Apr 16, 2007 1:24 PM
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Posted by: gracefounddog on Apr 16, 2007 1:29 PM
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Make Peace not WAR
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» Face it - It's too late!
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» Dude, that's every internet forum.
Posted by: medstudgeek
» RE: Alterneters 'Progressive?'
Posted by: zing
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Posted by: WitchyNy on Apr 16, 2007 2:00 PM
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At worse you have a child molester/abuser alone with your kids all day. Or you can stuff them all in government day care where they will learn to be good little soldiers.
Here is a child stat for you-- studies show that breast-fed babies are SMARTER. What we need to do is get of this capitialistic -MONEY IS EVERYTHING system. EAT THE RICH AND DIVIDE UP ALL THE MONEY THEY HAVE STOLEN EQUALLY.
Create a child first-environment-love and peace First World. It is way past time to evolve beyond this war-profit-jobs-view of the world.
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» we clearly need robots
Posted by: Laplandi
» Good luck...
Posted by: medstudgeek
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Posted by: cariblit on Apr 16, 2007 2:30 PM
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Posted by: kmart35 on Apr 16, 2007 2:44 PM
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Her comments "Women are socialized not to brag, but it's very gratifying to make money, be successful, and get recognition for your work." to justify a full-time career make me just feel that our culture is twisted, that sahm are not recognized as important in our society (just as teachers are not respected). This doesn't mean we shouldn't go into teaching or become stay at home moms but maybe we should start respecting people for working and taking care of children. I also feel that dads could just as easily be the stay at homes, just considering the temperament of the parent and salary, etc.
This author also expresses somewhat of a strange personality on print: she doesn't seem to understand why stay at home moms are not grateful and eager to buy her book that encourages another life choice and seems to bash their life choice????
BTW, I was raised by a full-time working single parent, and placed in day care/school full-time and hated it. I enjoy being a stay at home mom and don't feel stifled, and am glad that my kids don't have to be in day care full time as I was. I also think some women are happiest working full time and would never trash them or write a book telling them their choices are all wrong and they should stay at home and then act surprised if they weren't eager to buy my book!
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Posted by: sunflwrmoonbeam on Apr 16, 2007 3:12 PM
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My husband and I have organized our life so that I can stay home with the kids. I don't have the personality or skill set to deal with the normal corporate world. I'm an avid hobbyist and reader, I run a neo-pagan religious organization (Apple Branch Protogrove, ADF), I'm something of an activist, etc. In short, I have a bajillion better things to do than work some shit job. Considering I chose to major in something I love and that brings me happiness and intellectual stimulation (history) instead of something that brings me money, I'm not all that employable. I'm an excellent student and a decent historian, but that doesn't exactly win you money.
Then there's this idea that SAHM's are inherently boring people who don't have anything interesting to say. Well, my husband has many people's dream job; He programs video games. He goes to work and makes video games, and then comes home and plays video games. I love him to death, but that man hasn't had an interesting idea or opinion in a rather long time. I spend a decent amount of time reading blogs, studying history, and keeping up with current events so that I have plenty to discuss. By all standards, he's the boring one, and I'm the interesting one in the relationship. Yet I'm just a SAHW.
Work isn't for everyone, and staying at home isn't for everyone either. Why disparage someone else's choice? I"m sure he or she knows what they're doing.
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» I'm actually quite sympathetic...
Posted by: medstudgeek
» RE: I'm actually quite sympathetic...
Posted by: sunflwrmoonbeam
» RE: Future SAHM and proud
Posted by: Landbaron
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Posted by: snowhound on Apr 16, 2007 4:55 PM
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» RE: Be proud
Posted by: fork
» RE: Be proud
Posted by: snowhound
» RE: snowhound
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: snowhound
Posted by: snowhound
» RE: It's not easy at all; I am proud; you didn't seem to get the point of the book
Posted by: snowhound
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Posted by: astockton on Apr 16, 2007 5:02 PM
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Posted by: jparsons on Apr 16, 2007 5:05 PM
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Posted by: medstudgeek on Apr 16, 2007 6:44 PM
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Posted by: siddesu on Apr 16, 2007 7:39 PM
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so ... yawn.
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» No, she gave facts and statistics
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: nolagal on Apr 16, 2007 7:50 PM
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Her thesis requires that we all believe in the either/or of economic prosperity via a 9-5 job or some other traditional source of income vs. complete poverty. There is a third way. Ramping down, consuming less, working less, being happy with what you've got, focusing on the good, enjoying life more, simple pleasures. Her view is indeed for the people sucked into the vision of the U.S. economy barrelling right along with double digit growth.
Perhaps she sees not the forest for the trees -- a new way is coming, whether we like it or not...it will be forced upon us by competing demands and increasing scarcity of energy and water. Our current economic model will be invalidated, ultimately, since it is not sustainable. For the ultimate betterment for us and mankind, I might add.
Sure, plan for contingencies, buy gold, save, get yourself a skill that can help contribute to others and therefore keep you valuable, but keep what is most important to you front and center. Per some of the comments I read on this story, if it is "interesting conversation" a.k.a. "what I accomplished at my job today, how much money I've made, and where I've travelled in the world" vs. "these are the neat things I did with my family and kids today" so be it. There are always people who are not going to find the latter interesting or of primary value.
I happen to find the latter much more worth living and discussing than the former. And somehow, I don't see myself with tattered clothes on the streets because of it. There is too much goodness in this world. Besides, I am too smart and offer too much to others to let that happen.
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Posted by: off-the-radar 2 on Apr 16, 2007 9:47 PM
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I learned more from reading the postings:
1. There are some risks for partners (men or women) who choose to stay at home. To minimize the risks: make a conscious informed choice, keep up job skills, be financially prudent (have savings, have life insurance, know current financial status); and, most importantly, have the option to leave if the working partner is abusive.
2. some families choose to have a partner at home for a variety of reasons, respect those choices.
3. unpaid work (parenting, social activism, living) is just as valid as paid work.
4. The US needs to have more family-friendly policies and support systems. As a non-American, the US government talks family friendly but sure doesn't walk it compared to any other Western country.
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Posted by: Barbara on Apr 16, 2007 10:25 PM
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As a SAHM I was able to participate in all facets of my children's lives and as a result we are very close. I went back to work because we needed the money. My husband did not share my enthusiasm for my being home, so he pestered me to go back to work once my kids were able to take care of themselves. But I resisted and although we had our arguments, I stood up for my choice.
Did I love every minute of every day while I was home? Not exactly, because I did not want the typical housewife's role, but I did enjoy the ability to take care of the things that I considered important and having the time to do things with my children that were special, like baking cookies and cupcakes and being at every school event including field trips with them. Although, don't get me wrong, I did not go on every one, but made it my business to be on at least a few each year with each daughter.
There is no reason to cause an argument between SAHMs and working mothers. Everyone's choice has as much value seen in the context of their own life. Therefore, a book such as this one only exacerbates this tiresome argument that has been around for over 30 years. Some men have taken up the banner of this argument and use it to push women into the workforce. But in the end it is the woman's choice, and how she chooses will determine how happy she really is.
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Posted by: sheena2u on Apr 17, 2007 2:28 AM
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The author has written a book to help women, she says. Okay great. So, then why carry on if some people do not appreciate the effort? There will always be people who do not appreciate efforts to help them. There is nothing that can be done about this. You offer your hand, and if a person refuses to take it, at least you tried! Then you move on. No one can do more.
Every one is responsible for finding their own path in life. No one has all the answers for everyone.
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Posted by: charrua on Apr 17, 2007 7:56 AM
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Just like stay-at-home moms don't want to read that they've made a huge mistake, working women can't wait to be reassured that they're right.
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» Tone has something to do with it
Posted by: davelwhite
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Posted by: Ledhed on Apr 17, 2007 9:42 AM
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Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Apr 17, 2007 9:57 AM
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Turn off the damn tv and learn/relearn what makes a society and an economy strong. Or continue this trend of everyone for him/herself and see what ruin it brings.
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Posted by: zing on Apr 17, 2007 3:32 PM
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I don't know and I certainly don't have the answers, and everyone comes to the table with their own assumptions and life experiences. I just find the different option/choice = attack of one's choices really counterproductive.
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Posted by: elfinito on Apr 17, 2007 4:19 PM
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This may be much worse in the so-called Blue states, but the SAHMs in my family are stigmatized much more than those that work. They have a hard time around career woman that they feel are looking down on them as sad and pathetic.
Of course people need to understand the consequences of their choice and giving facts is great, but the title of your book, on its face is condescending and hard on those that are already struggling with the stigma associated with the choice...and i think that sparked the outrage in those woman.
I respect either decision. Being one of 6 children, two much younger, I understand the difficulty of raising chidren and fully respect it as a life choice taht is no easier than a career. Making a decision is about balancing your risk and rewards...for some the decision is rash and they do not do this and thats where your book is great. But I think for many this is done, and they decide that reward associated with raising their children completly is higher and thus worth more of a risk than it is to others.
My sister, a SAHM, feels that so many career woman are ego-centric. They do not understand her values, and in turn are condescending towards her. Its hard for her and in her eyes, a book like this threatened to further that condescension. Her choice was educated, and with our family, and her education as background she is not financially trapped like so many SAHMs are.
Dont get me wrong...I fully agree with you that this is a very dangerous choice. And any woman who makes it lightly without thinking of all the future implications is making a mistake. But isn't anybody that makes a life-altering choice without thinking it through making the same mistake. This problem is a universal problem. People taking careers for the wrong reasons, having children w/o the means to support them, rushing into marriage, etc.... so often regret these choices in hind-sight.
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Posted by: schtroumpf7997 on Apr 18, 2007 1:09 AM
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Posted by: mike51 on Apr 18, 2007 3:29 AM
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Posted by: jdkrheum on Apr 18, 2007 9:22 AM
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Posted by: rwmk12 on Apr 18, 2007 10:40 AM
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Posted by: jrubelee on Apr 19, 2007 1:35 PM
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Consider that in the United States women over the age of 65 are twice as poor as men in the same age group. And there's a reason poverty so disproportionately hits women. Most of these poor women were, or still are, caregivers. And we've got an economic system that gives no visibility or value to this essential work when it's done in the home.
In fact, according to economists, the people who do the caring work in households, whether female or male, are "economically inactive." Of course, anyone who has a mother knows that most caregivers work from dawn to dusk. And we also know that without their work of caring for children, for the sick, and for the elderly, there would be no workforce, no economy, nothing.
Yet current economic indicators and policies fail to include this work. Measures of productivity such as GDP (gross domestic product) not only include activities that harm and even take life -- such as making cigarettes plus the resulting medical and funeral bills -- but fail to include the life-sustaining activities that contribute the most to human well being. The life-sustaining work of caring for people and maintaining a clean and healthy home environment still performed primarily by women in households is not included as "productive work."
So, to the libbers: if you're not going to do something to help anyone (male or female) filling traditional female roles, then please go away and shut up. It's bad enough to have to deal with men with these bs attitudes. Why do we have to put up with you too?
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Posted by: Landbaron on Apr 20, 2007 11:40 AM
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Posted by: schister on Apr 23, 2007 2:38 PM
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» RE: Working Mommy
Posted by: kmart35
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Posted by: sweetblasphomy on May 2, 2007 7:43 PM
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Posted by: emar on May 3, 2007 3:57 PM
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one would have the satisfaction of being able to spend a lot of time with our kids, and being productive (& earning) members of our society.... & lead more balanced lives..
why should one have to make a choice ? & even if a SAH choice is made there should be some infrastucture so that getting back to work is possible...
i can only hope that our kids become parents in a more enlightened world..
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Posted by: SavageDissension on Apr 16, 2007 1:01 AM
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» This is not simple identity politics
Posted by: zyxwvut
» RE: This is not simple identity politics
Posted by: hms2004
» RE: This is not simple identity politics
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: This is not simple identity politics
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: This is not simple identity politics
Posted by: redjenny
» RE: This is not simple identity politics
Posted by: EncinoM
» And have to pay them even if they don't have the money...
Posted by: medstudgeek
» RE: And have to pay them even if they don't have the money...
Posted by: EncinoM
Comments are closed-
Posted by: HughScott on Apr 16, 2007 2:50 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After Saturday's stalking article, that's all I have to say.
Hugh "Got His Ass Kicked by the Ladies Saturday" Scott -- editor of King-George.biz -- the only website with hardcopy proof of White House corruption.
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» RE: Any woman who gives up her career for a man is nuts...
Posted by: flairndip
» RE: Any woman who gives up her career for a man is nuts...
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» I agree . . . omg
Posted by: off-the-radar 2
» Thanks for the kudo, off-the-radar 2. Without humor, I wouldn't have lived so long (I'm 71)...
Posted by: HughScott
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Michael LaFlow on Apr 16, 2007 3:13 AM
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» RE: The man is nuts, too
Posted by: Rixblix
» RE: The man is nuts, too
Posted by: JCR
» RE: The man is nuts, too
Posted by: zing
» RE: The man is nuts, too
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: The man is nuts, too
Posted by: brigid
» RE: The man is nuts, too
Posted by: brigid
» RE: The man is nuts, too
Posted by: astockton
» RE: The man is nuts, too
Posted by: tamsin
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Smartcookie on Apr 16, 2007 3:31 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I grew up with both parents who lived at work, and let me tell you it was no picknick. I was a latchkey kid and to be frank most people aren't good parents to begin with, they have no clue how to raise kids. It's small wonder most people turn out such screwed up children because they are screwed up and indoctrinated themselves.
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» RE: ight... as a child of two career parents...
Posted by: hellofriends
» Making money is the highest virtue
Posted by: theracerace
» RE: Making money is the highest virtue
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Making money is the highest virtue
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: Making money is the highest virtue
Posted by: plantsareneat
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Apr 16, 2007 4:16 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But you make it sound like it's required reading, and that you have been put down here on earth to save everyone.
This article sounds like an ego trip and self-promotion to me.
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Posted by: H_H on Apr 16, 2007 4:28 AM
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...and yet, during the Welfare Reform debates of the 1990s, I recall hearing feminists argue that women on welfare are not "financially dependent" on anyone, but are plucky and tough from being on their own.
More simply put:
Getting financial support from a loving husband makes women dependent and weak.
Getting financial support from an uncaring government bureaucracy makes women independent and spunky.
Normal people would find this logic to be obtuse, but there is a crucial difference: In the latter situation, there are no eeeeevil men around, therefore by feminist logic it's a better arrangement.
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» RE: "dependence" apparently depends on who gives what
Posted by: Devan
» RE: "dependence" apparently depends on who gives what
Posted by: H_H
» RE: "dependence" apparently depends on who gives what
Posted by: hms2004
» RE: "dependence" apparently depends on who gives what
Posted by: H_H
» To the obviously bitter men responding here - leave and get a room
Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: To the obviously bitter men responding here - leave and get a room
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» What a clever wag you are
Posted by: H_H
» "Spunky" isn't a Feminist Word ... and that's not a Feminist position
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» Well, do feel free to paraphrase, interpret, and make the rules too ...
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» A few of you also seem to take dim views of families with heterosexual men in them
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: cyclone2525 on Apr 16, 2007 4:32 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Same Experience
Posted by: lynned2002
» RE: Same Experience
Posted by: redjenny
Comments are closed-
Posted by: starhelix on Apr 16, 2007 5:02 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The thing that riles most folks, including me, is Ms. Bennetts' cold reliance on the money issue. Money is the No. 1 reason why relationships fail at every level. As long as the conversation is focused on money rather than love, no relationship is safe. Of course, America's business world isn't family friendly, except for the Ruling Class. However, things are changing -- slowly. The sudden rise of marriage partner search companies indicates the difficulties people are having finding suitable mates who are willing to make the proper commitments. This isn't because people don't want to do the right thing. It's because we've lost the genuine sense of what it takes to make a family and a community. The Mommie-track-is-madness-track is the wrong argument. The real question is: Why are people finding it so hard to FALL IN LOVE, get married, have kids and live their lives into old age without arguing over money? The real issue is: Do we want to build families on love, respect and commitment or do we want to build them on cold, corporate control? People are starting to see the light and are opting out of the corporate model. May God bless them for making the better choice.
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» RE: Mommie Track Is Madness Track? This Is A False Inference!
Posted by: Devan
» RE: Mommie Track Is Madness Track? This Is A False Inference!
Posted by: starhelix
» RE: Mommie Track Is Madness Track? This Is A False Inference!
Posted by: sweetblasphomy
» RE: Mommie Track Is Madness Track? This Is A False Inference!
Posted by: hms2004
» "I won't read Ms. Bennetts' book . . ."
Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: Mommie Track Is Madness Track? This Is A False Inference!
Posted by: quitecontrary
» RE: Mommie Track Is Madness Track? This Is A False Inference!
Posted by: astockton
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Urstrly on Apr 16, 2007 5:05 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A few widows worked to research the causes of the attacks and were savagedly set upon by the right wing harpies, but I often wonder about the others and what they are doing now. No matter how much wealth your spouse produces, spending it is not a career.
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» RE: emembering 9/11
Posted by: VZEQICVA
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Devan on Apr 16, 2007 5:11 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» No friends?
Posted by: slydad
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Beck on Apr 16, 2007 5:46 AM
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I remember reading that housewives have double the cancer rate of working women; one of Dr. Bernie Siegel's books, I think. And it was thought that they were around too many cleaning chemicals. Then he wondered if professional cleaning women wouldn't have an even higher cancer rate, because they'd be exposed at work and at home, but found that they had the same lower cancer rate as working women. The author proposed the idea that cancer is a disease of falseness, that a life of feeling like you're playing a role makes you more suseptible, and in interviewing patients who were housewives, he found this to be common. I did both, raising my son, and found staying at home to be lonely and isolating, but I was certainly glad that when I did start to work, it was satisfying work and only part time.
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» Stress -> Crappy Immune System -> Cancer
Posted by: medstudgeek
» Bernie Siegel, MD: "Love, Medicine, & Miracles" page 81, paperback edition. You're welcome again!
Posted by: Beck
» My numbers were wrong, though: it says 157 % higher cancer rate for housewives vs. working women
Posted by: Beck
» RE: Our society could do much better, if it cared about kids as much as it claims
Posted by: annamargaret1866
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Bobsays on Apr 16, 2007 5:48 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To tell any woman that her life is over because she had a child and stayed at home for a few years is to perpetuate the myth that work will make you free ('arbeiten machst frei' as Hitler used to say). Work does not make you free, and especially living for a career with a big blue chip does not make you free. You are a disposable tool, nothing more.
I have none women who have flamed and been pushed down the ladder despite having no kids. I have known women who have done fine having kids and then returning to the workforce. You can never predict what the economy will be up to in five years time. Here are some examples: you leave to have a kid, and then re-enter the workforce at the kick-off the dot com boom. Labour shortaged mean you are hired straight away: no questions asked. Or you are a former security expert and then want to get back to work just after 9/11 - you have Blackwater beating your door down. See? Anything can happen.
This woman is the kind of woman who wants to turn the world into a planet of frigid dykes and lonely latchkey children. Not a pretty place I am afraid.
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» RE: This is totally wrong
Posted by: nise52
» "Sounds like you're intimidated by strong, articulate, intelligent women."
Posted by: russianblue1
» alot of them are
Posted by: Beck
» Translation - angry, belligerent, hostile women no one wants
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: Translation - angry, belligerent, hostile women no one wants
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: Translation - angry, belligerent, hostile women no one wants
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» The femiphobes always describe themselves, while finding these articles irresistible
Posted by: Beck
» RE: This is totally wrong
Posted by: hms2004
» RE: This is totally wrong
Posted by: techphile
» Why don't more MEN don't opt out of the Career Trap ?
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: Why don't more MEN don't opt out of the Career Trap ?
Posted by: sweetblasphomy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sdoboze on Apr 16, 2007 6:01 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is a human right, for [at least] one parent [at a time], to give their full direct attention, to children.
Children need adequate attention - this book would be an example of wasted ink, because it clearly fails to include the realistic conclusions these women have such hardship.
1.7 Billion U.S. Dollars a day, taxes paid BY these [men] who work, distributed as subsidies among committees of all the U.S./U.K. parenting mothers, goes much farther than 'the war on terror'. Jeffery Sachs BBC.CO.UK lecture. Giving them free 'cheese product' and food stamps is a worthless exercise in PR futility.
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» Don't subsidize the one thing doing the most damage to the globe -- reproduction
Posted by: janvdb
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Posted by: Aimee on Apr 16, 2007 6:10 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those who enjoy there lives with children, more power to them - just don't wish it on everyone else. It is a big mistake.
Aimee
DataOptions.com
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» RE: My Mother and I agreed: we would not have had children
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: My Mother and I agreed: we would not have had children
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: My Mother and I agreed: we would not have had children
Posted by: wisewebwoman
» More power to them.. but its a big mistake.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: More power to them.. but its a big mistake.
Posted by: bubbleburster04
» So basically... our society is hostile to parenthood. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Can you say it ISN'T ... ???
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: More power to them.. but its a big mistake.
Posted by: Aimee
» RE: More power to them.. but its a big mistake.
Posted by: Aimee
» In other words, your mother was sorry you existed?
Posted by: chief of okeefe
» RE: In other words, your mother was sorry you existed?
Posted by: Aimee
Comments are closed-
Posted by: BetteM on Apr 16, 2007 6:10 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The take-away from this book is....women need to carefully review their financial situation..for now and in the future ..with or without spouse/family. It is unfortunate that despite 30 years of women entering the work place, and despite the acceleration of women with advanced degrees inMD, engineering, law.. there STILL exists a bias against women. Just check out the minute number of women CEO's in Fortune 500 Company.
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Posted by: xenacat on Apr 16, 2007 6:23 AM
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» Sorry, but children DO benefit from having a parent around rather than being in daycare.nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Sorry, but children DO benefit from having a parent around rather than being in daycare.nm
Posted by: hellofriends
» Ah yes... what no one will talk about.. the fact that WORK SUCKS!!!!!
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» You said it, you believe it, that settles it?
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: Sorry, but children DO benefit from having a parent around rather than being in daycare.nm
Posted by: kuro_neko
» You are so right
Posted by: janvdb
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Deb C on Apr 16, 2007 6:24 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I realize that many parents have to work to stay a float in this economy but that is different than the person working a 50+ hour week climbing the career ladder. I experience many parents today coming to their senses and being creative about work. Some are working from home or one parent working part time. Some parents are understanding what is really important in life, and it's not climbing the career ladder and staying on the treadmill of work and spend.
We will have much more sanity in this world when we understand that the job of a parent is one of the most important jobs you will ever hold. Changing a diaper may not be glamorus but it's nurturing and loving, and that is worth a million dollars.
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» Treating patients in a clinic for colds, diabetes, arthritis.....
Posted by: mjabele
» Actually, outpatient medicine is on the 'saintly' side of the profession as it exists now...
Posted by: medstudgeek
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Posted by: mjabele on Apr 16, 2007 6:26 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Women who've made the choice to stay at home immediately seem to bridle when this point is raised - "What could be a more important than raising the next generation of children?" is the usual thing I hear. Well, as the father of two children, I don't doubt that's important - but I also think it's a terrible waste of intellect and creativity to consign half of the adult population to doing one task only, while leaving the other half to determine, more or less by default, the technological, economic, legal, and political parameters of the world these children will grow into.
Some stay-at-home moms have made the argument that they participate in volunteer activities in addition to taking care of their children, but I still think these women inevitably lose a signficant degree of influence over the shape of our future world by not participating more fully in actual careers.
The big question, I suppose, is how to actually generate the necessary time and freedom for women to pursue careers, while at the same time ensuring that our children are raised in caring and nurturing environments. As things stand now, there's an unspoken assumption among most employers that younger women will at some point want to take time out or limit their hours in some way to accommodate children, but that younger men will NOT be asking for or needing these things. My feeling is that it's actually the latter part of the assumption that really needs to change at this point. In order for women to participate more fully in the actual "business of running the world", if you will, men will need to retreat somewhat from that role. My guess is that many men won't actually mind that as much as one might think - a lot of us feel rather cut off from the "business of running the home", if you will. But we also sense that we're not in a position to ask for such "privileges" from our employers - and that current social (and corporate) expectations don't really support the idea of men working less in order to spend more time at home.
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» RE: conomic concerns strike me as only part of the story with regard to women in the workplace...
Posted by: nsm33
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Posted by: Jharyn on Apr 16, 2007 6:28 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
God forbid a woman actually plays a part in raising her own kids. Women like this author don't deserve the joy of being a parent.
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» RE: More American female garbage
Posted by: nise52
» RE: More American female garbage
Posted by: Megz
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Posted by: www.suekatz.com on Apr 16, 2007 6:28 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Nice to have choices
Posted by: Bozwell
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Posted by: nise52 on Apr 16, 2007 6:33 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Husband #2 and I have been married for 25 yrs. We raised a daughter (I worked the whole time). When she was small I felt the pangs of regret that most mothers have but I knew if I stayed home we couldn't put decent food on the table. I like fresh salads and meats...not Ramen noodles for dinner. We live in a mobile home and drive older cars so we're not the country club set.
Five years ago I was diagnosed with a chronic (gets worse...no cure) medical condition and had to quit working. I was approved for Social Security Disability BECAUSE I had worked right up to the onset of the condition. Within 24 months I became eligible for Medicare health benefits. So now, because I worked all of my adult life (like most men) I have a small monthly income and health benefits.
Stay-at-home moms receive NONE of this because American society glorifies mothers only one day a year (Mother's Day) so it can SELL something to her family.
There was a saying in the early 1970's (when feminism was born)...."Never produce more children than what you (the woman) can raise by yourself"....
It's true...because the odds are that sooner or later YOU will have to raise them yourself and you had better have a job!
D H Plain City
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» RE: Amen, Amen, Amen....
Posted by: hms2004
» RE: Amen, Amen, Amen....
Posted by: dangerouslysane
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ahimsanow on Apr 16, 2007 6:33 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am a middle class woman and mother of two sons (24 and 17) who has not worked outside the home for 25 years and have thoroughly enjoyed my life with my family and my husband of 34 years.
I am not economically dependent on my working husband, who would love to stay home, too! His earnings are our earnings. We share bank accounts and have equal say about how our money is spent and saved.
We embraced simplicity and rejected the ways of our decadent materialistic culture more than 30 years ago. Today, I am primarily a peace and environmental activist, with enough time to read and research the big issues facing our times -- Peak Oil, climate change, coming economic collapse, etc.
Pursue your dreams and give your life to noble causes (such as full-time motherhood!), not just to making a dollar.
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» The point is, careers are NOT just about making a dollar.....
Posted by: mjabele
» Most careers are about money.
Posted by: medstudgeek
» More capitalist/empire materialistic culture rubbish
Posted by: theracerace
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Posted by: heid on Apr 16, 2007 6:41 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Because of it, she was utterly miserable, could not relate to other stay-at-home wives with interests that didn't go beyond soap operas and what was the best detergent. She had no means of dealing with a horribly abusive husand. When her youngest had reached the late teens, she discovered that, in spite of her incredible resume from years before, no one wanted her as an employee. She was considered worthless, since she was an older woman. And she had no way out from a miserable marriage.
Aside from the fact that my own life would have been ever so much better had my mother been able to leave her abusive husband - as abusive husbands are usually also abusive fathers - I've little doubt that the real reason she died at age 58 was from a sense of hopelessness. What's stated on the death certificate simply cannot capture the reality of a life destroyed.
The author of this book has written something that every young woman needs to read and take to heart. If you don't have economic clout in this society, then you have nothing.
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» RE: My mother made that mistake.
Posted by: Sunfell
» RE: My mother made that mistake.
Posted by: JMorse
» Here is another mistake-- passing up decent men to marry jerks
Posted by: chief of okeefe
» Works both ways, chief
Posted by: Beck
Comments are closed-
Posted by: BeckyD on Apr 16, 2007 6:50 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've been at home, full time, part time during various parts of our children's lives and I don't regret the time I spent at home one bit. I didn't worry about death because we made certain to have adequate insurance on my husband and savings reserves before I stopped working. I didn't worry about divorce because, in addition to trusting my husband, I knew I had the education and skillsets to support myself if necessary. Making a choice to stay home is like making any other choice in life - there are tradeoffs and risks, and it shouldn't be undertaken lightly or without careful planning and consideration.
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» In the working world, we're all replaceable
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Apr 16, 2007 6:53 AM
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» RE: Ahimsanow has the right idea!
Posted by: bookie
» RE: Ahimsanow has the right idea!
Posted by: dangerouslysane
Comments are closed-
Posted by: faultroy on Apr 16, 2007 7:03 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Furthermore, though unsaid, so does the male--even more so than the female-- for he is required to provide not only child/household support, but also financial support for the woman if she is not able to maintain the household in the manner that she lived in prior to the divorce. This article is insulting in that it addresses the concerns of very few working women. Bennett implies that all women are in high powered high paying jobs and as a result, any downtime in their careers is rewarded with a recuced income and decreased promotional mobility. While this may be true with certain high powered careers, most women do not fall into this category and consequently her arguments are not germane to the average working woman. Most women are in middle to lower paying jobs. It wouldn't really matter if an office worker took time off to rear her children as opposed to lets say a corporate VP.
Bennett says, "...working women tend to be happier and healthier than stay at home moms..." Really? I don't know of any studies that substantiate this claim. And if there are any, I would seriously question the methodology. I know from empirical evidence that most women having babies really feel guilty having to work a 40 plus hour week. And I do not know of any families that enjoy having someone else take care of their child and watch them grow up. As a matter of fact, all the studies I have seen indicate that Mothers are totally frazzled and burning the candle at both ends just to keep up with the Joneses. And for the privilege of working a full time job and having some semblance of home life, they take less demanding jobs, and forgo equal pay with men in similar jobs in order to have the flexibility to care and nurture their children. Furthermore all the studies I have seen on infant developmental growth substantiate the fact the infants and small children obtain greater developmental growth through active participation and interacton with its biological parents. And studies of preschoolers indicate that they are more psychologically mature and confident with more and greater parental interaction once they begin school.
Bennett also makes the case of Childrens' welfare in general, and states that "...sociologists spent decades camparing kids of working moms to that of full time stay at home moms consistently failing to prove the latter children do better..." --than what? Perhaps these sociologists would like to compare the crime statistics with those of latch key kids: the drug use of children left to fend for themselves because women are out working and are not able to devote the time to properly care for their children. Or for that matter the consistently dwindling educational test scores since the sixties. There has been a dramatic rise in all levels of crime since the sixties when moms stayed at home--look up the FBI Uniform Crime Statistics for the past 40 years if you think I am incorrect.
How many upper class white gangs do we have in this country compared to Mexican American Gangs/ Black Gangs and the violence, drug use and disease that goes along with it?
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» good point
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: good point
Posted by: ankhet
» ankhet, good point but...
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
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