COMMENTS: 229
Trillions in Debt, Can the Middle Class Hang On?
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Yes, this is both absurd and dangerous. But no, go-go bankers are not entirely to blame for our national credit fiasco, of which subprime mortgages -- the ones that have been blowing up lately, wreaking havoc in markets here and abroad -- will ultimately prove but a footnote. Go back and do the math, like professor Elizabeth Warren of Harvard Law School, and you'll discover a systemic problem: Incomes aren't rising nearly as fast as big-ticket costs like healthcare, education and housing. Ergo the negative savings rate, the two-thirds of us who can't pay our credit card bills off every month, and the proliferation of "liar's loans" -- where customers fabricate an income high enough to qualify for a mortgage and banks promise not to call them out on the lie.
I have been criticized for making a film about such Americans. A banker who joined me on a radio show, for example, sniffed that it was simply too easy to find examples of Americans drowning in easy credit. I completely agree with him. It's far too easy, mainly because those people are most of us. Bankers would do well to listen to a few of the stories behind the numbers, or else they will never understand the numbers themselves.
Some will argue -- with no empirical evidence, mind you -- that the culture itself is to blame. We have become a bunch of materialistic, Paris Hilton-loving deadbeats! they trill. Such was the argument the banks used to railroad bankruptcy reform through Congress a year and a half ago. If we accepted their argument and blamed the "gamers" -- the new welfare queens -- they promised us a dividend in the neighborhood of several hundred dollars apiece in the form of lower interest rates. Last quarter, these same bankers announced record credit card profits (JPMorgan Chase, the biggest, more than doubled their profits), but alas, no check arrived in the mail for you or me.
The "personal responsibility" argument, as it is euphemistically known, appeals to our love of false nostalgia if not history itself. It assumes that Jimmy Carter wasn't imploring us to cut up our credit cards three decades ago (he was); that the Me Generation never happened (it did); that the '80s was not the decade of greed (it was); or that, going back a bit further, the Roaring Twenties never happened (it did).
So caveat emptor, they crow. But do banks really want to be bundled in the same class as used car dealers? True, they've blurred their ivory towers by jumping into the subprime business head first, but they still like to trade on their good names, don't they? The smart ones intuitively get that if they lose their moral authority, if too many of their customers learn that they can't walk into a mortgage closing or sign a contract without a decent chance of said contract blowing up in their face in a matter of months, then the grease that lubricates the economy will congeal into a gum that jams the gears and slows it to a halt.
Some argue that the subprime mortgage fiasco has been contained, yet the mindset that created it lurks everywhere. FICO, the credit-scoring product that Suze Orman likes to compare to x-rays (when she's not peddling Cadillacs or Ameritrade accounts), is riddled with errors and has nothing to do with income. Financing contracts have evolved into minefields that cannot be understood by Harvard Law School professors, MIT math whizzes and oftentimes bankers themselves. Schemes like double-cycle billing, universal default and negative amortization tend to be understood only by their devastating consequences.
I got my first credit card as an incoming freshman at the University of Pennsylvania. My college, like so many others, had sold my personal information to a bank, which sent me an application before I had a chance to enroll in a single class. I thought of this credit card the other day, with its navy blue veneer and shield encrusted with Latin, during the congressional hearings on the credit card industry. One of the bankers was arguing that a particularly nefarious practice was perfectly acceptable because there was no law forbidding it -- just as there is no law against liar's loans or hawking platinum cards to wide-eyed 18-year-olds with no money.
I remembered my first credit card because of the motto inscribed across the front, the ethics code of the university founded by the father of American thrift, Benjamin Franklin. The motto was: Leges Sine Moribus Vanae, or Laws Without Morals Are Useless. How true.
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Posted by: DataDoc on Apr 3, 2007 12:48 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Then I bought a house with my wife. We love it, but it did have some problems - a cat got in between the time we purchased and the time we moved in, and destroyed the carpets. Pulling the carpets and polishing the hardwood floors started my serious credit card debt. When the roof leaked, I replaced the shingles myself, but the expenses went on the card, same for the plumbing. As my card payments grew, I found I no longer had "spending money." I had to put any purchases on the card. I stopped dining out, and buying cd's. But I started to put food purchases on the credit card. They kept raising my interest rate, and I would call and get it back down, but my interest payments grew bigger and bigger.
We did take a pay cut at work, but got it back with the minimum wage increase. So my income has been stable over the last few years, however just the interest on my credit cards is now $200 per month. It's a good racket for the credit card provider! I now owe more than $15,000 to the credit card provider, and have no real dollars to buy food. Hey there's always the credit card! And government assistance.
I know many folks have even scarier stories, but I thought I should tell mine as a cautionary tale. A few thousand can grow to a few ten thousand quicker than you might think! It's called compound interest and it's assessed daily.
To keep folks in their homes we will need to create low-interest loan assistance on a large scale to relieve the debts of the poor with 2-3% interest loans. This is the future of charity - we can't build a house for everyone, but we can try to save the homes they have.
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» I think many of us have experienced what you described..... however, we are manipulated..
Posted by: Prophit
» I like this Jefferson quote better...
Posted by: ordaj
» Or maybe this one...
Posted by: ordaj
» RE: Get out of debt - you've gotta learn to scrimp!
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Get out of debt - you've gotta learn to scrimp!
Posted by: counterpoint
» 2nd that on bicycles
Posted by: Artkansas
» RE: 2nd that on bicycles - thanks guys
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» Don't you think it ironic that the Oil companies are going to aid us into getting fit......
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Get out of debt - you've gotta learn to scrimp!
Posted by: Philip Newton
» RE: Get out of debt without working!
Posted by: katz22br
» NO WAY!
Posted by: Wassermann
» YEAH, WAY...
Posted by: katz22br
» RE: Get out of debt without working!
Posted by: davincispb
» Thanks y'all for your kind advice!
Posted by: DataDoc
» OK - Here's some more (scary dangerous) advice - that you also may not need
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» PS If anybody knows of a better rewards program than that - Please tell me!
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» Good Advice
Posted by: DataDoc
» RE: Good Advice - I think you have really learned your lesson and won't be tempted
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Get out of debt without working!
Posted by: kmarkou
Comments are closed-
Posted by: edith on Apr 3, 2007 1:21 AM
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Well, if you can depend on Congress for anything is that it will bail out banks before people, so the "contraction" of the economy, just around the corner, will solve the problem as will skyrocketing inflation that will monetize our debts and reduce debt's real value.
Hopefully, as the defense/homeland security fueled economy contracts and printing of federal funny money slows down, some of us will still have the couple of hundred a month needed to pay the interest charges on our shrunken but still potent credit card debt. Of course this "happy ending" depends on the Chinese not foreclosing on our red inked dead-drunk debtor nation. If they do, we are drowned, drowned drowned.
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» RE: Inspired by this article
Posted by: ateo
» RE: Meant to make a new post so I'm reposting...N/T
Posted by: ateo
» Checked out that Chase credit card you mentioned ateo
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Search and Rescue Anyone?
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Why shouldn't the gov't bail out the middle class?
Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: Why shouldn't the gov't bail out the middle class?
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Let's subsidize the mohair industry for another 50 years
Posted by: eddie torres
» RE: Why shouldn't the gov't bail out the middle class? - Fact is, it ain't gonna happen
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Conservasaurus - Why shouldn't the gov't bail out the middle class?
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Conservasaurus - Why shouldn't the gov't bail out the middle class?
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Why shouldn't the gov't bail out the middle class?
Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: Why shouldn't the gov't bail out the middle class?
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» we used to have something called bankruptcy for the consumer in the "good' old days
Posted by: edith
» RE: Search and Rescue Anyone?
Posted by: QuestionAuthority
» RE: Search and Rescue Anyone?
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Search and Rescue Anyone? - People like you are who bankruptcy laws are for.
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» PS: Ask yourself
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Search and Rescue Anyone?
Posted by: fearlessmanateehunter
» RE: Search and Rescue Anyone?
Posted by: Monitor523
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ateo on Apr 3, 2007 3:12 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anyway, what does this mean, "If we accepted their argument and blamed the "gamers" -- the new welfare queens -- they promised us a dividend in the neighborhood of several hundred dollars apiece in the form of lower interest rates." Gamers meaning people who work the system as if it were a game or what?
I do actually think a big part of the problem is the prevailing culture in America. People want to live a life style they really can't afford and so they take on debt they can't pay back to achieve it.
On the other hand there is the fact that once you add children into the equation a "comfortable" life style becomes borderline poverty. The solution is simply to not have children. That is what happens in Russia and many former Soviet nations. However, unlike them we don't mind having people from other countries stream into ours and replace our "native" population (they seem to have some kind of problem with the idea of Chinese immigrants replacing Russians so they are trying to promote child birth among their people). Thus, our population will continue to rise even as birth rates among native born Americans declines. America has labor (though, perhaps non-English speaking labor), and the current generation gets to enjoy their pampered middle class life style. It's win/win.
We'll also get to see whether racist nations such as China, Japan, Russia etc. are correct in assuming the people actually living in their country culturally and racially is primarily responsible for the continued existence and prosperity of their country. When whites are a minority in the U.S. if we are still a superpower then good on us, we win. If not, then I guess it'll be time for the racist Chinese/Russians/Japanese etc. and their homogeneous populations to rise to prominence. The U.S. has never really had a cultural identity so there is much less protectionism on this issue.
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» RE: Inspired by this article
Posted by: launcher
» RE: Ah, I've heard of that practice
Posted by: ateo
Comments are closed-
Posted by: crmcvin on Apr 3, 2007 3:51 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Get in debt to pay huge health and living expenses, struggle with taxes, fall even a bit behind on any thing and your treated like some sort of irresponsible criminal. Then you'll likely get your home or business (if you are on your own - as more and more of us are) levied by the state or feds and loose your middle class safety nets - all of which safety nets are of your own making anyway, since the current regime in power has undermined any meaningful official ones.
In a world where most kids start their first job between 30-60k in debt for the educations, I recommend cancelling every credit card except the one you need to travel for business (and keep a small cap on that one) and don't buy anything you don't need to sustain a modest life or a soothed the soul. Spend more time with friends making good food together and laughing and stay away from malls and expensive vacations, restaurants and entertainment centers. See a good movie or play now and then or go to free concerts. Cut back on fueling the consumption of things mentality in self and others. If we all did that for one year, the whole bogus industry would collapse, and new economy of sustainable service and community involvement could evolve. Of course, the way it's been structured by the money hounds called banks and credit card companies - in collusion with the US government, you'll probably collapse too. Either way, they get ya!
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» RE: Don't give them any ideas
Posted by: ateo
» I do this with my wife
Posted by: Bobsays
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Posted by: davidslesinger on Apr 3, 2007 3:57 AM
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» How about teaching people to "just say no" to those promotions.
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: How about teaching people in general
Posted by: Sushi
Comments are closed-
Posted by: bulbman on Apr 3, 2007 4:00 AM
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» By then there will be no middle class. they want a slave class and they will get one.
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Agreed, Muslim's have finance and economics figured out
Posted by: ateo
» I am willing to say "we went into Iraq to destroy their financial system".... In fact, I will say..
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: anonimus1 on Apr 3, 2007 4:00 AM
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The only thing floating it are promises. Promises that it's backed by gold in Fort Knox -- gold that no longer resides there because it's been stolen and sold off to pay for war.
The thing to do is to get completely out of the US dollar, as much as possible. Buy gold coins (newer issue, not the old coins) and have them ready in a safe in your house that's bolted to your floor under your bed.
When the US economic collapse happens, you will then have money to barter with, to buy food and pay for healthcare. Or, in the probable event of pre-planned nationwide martial law (where most of everything you own will be confiscated by the US govt), you may be able to bribe your way out of the country. By then Mexico and Canada will already be part of the North American Union, so you will be wanting to bribe your way to Central or South America, or to Africa.
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» Your advice is partially sound.... if there is a collapse, there won't be food and Healthcare...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Hmmm...
Posted by: ateo
» New oil bourses in IRAN and RUSSIA - not in US dollars.
Posted by: anonimus1
» RE: I'm aware of the oil burse in Iran
Posted by: ateo
» Thanks, anonimus1, I was just getting ready to educate the poor boy to those very facts.
Posted by: Prophit
» Other "hot" investments
Posted by: anonimus1
» Anonimus, as usual, your are fully correct, but your an analyst as you said........
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Financial advice...
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Financial advice...
Posted by: anonimus1
» RE: Financial advice...
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Financial advice...
Posted by: yellow
Comments are closed-
Posted by: colinmeister on Apr 3, 2007 4:09 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I receive an average of 4 junk mails a week offering me credit cards with various incentives. I do not currently have a credit card, and nor do I want one - I learned the hard way by responding to Capital One in a positive way. I never bought anything on that card, yet racked up huge debt from a monthly charge and penalties for not paying it. When I paid everything off, and the card had expired, Capital One tried to re-instate my card ownership, and it took a lengthy telephone conversation with someone from South Asia to finally get rid of it.
At least from a car salesman you get a car of some sort. From the banksters you are likely to get nothing, and pay dearly for it!
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» I think Bankers rank below Used Car Salesmen.... In fact, they are responsible for the ...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Worse than used car salesmen.
Posted by: Gisele
» RE: A good position to be in, however...
Posted by: ateo
» At this point, with the direction we are heading, forget about your credit score and everything....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Gisele
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Ouch, read the fine print next time
Posted by: ateo
» RE: Ouch, read the fine print next time - read my post above about the Chase card
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Yea, it's something
Posted by: ateo
» use opt-out no mail list
Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: use opt-out no mail list
Posted by: ateo
» Absolutely, in fact, keep one card, use it sparingly, and close all the others... pay them off or...
Posted by: Prophit
» Capital One....
Posted by: Artkansas
» RE: Worse than used car salesmen.
Posted by: JSquercia
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Prophit on Apr 3, 2007 4:25 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Our corporations literally had two things they no longer have or pay for : 1. a Research and development dept and budget. 2. On site educational and skills training for their workers. Both are gone and I just read we have slipped to 7th in the world in techology advancement.
There is a redistribution of wealth to the elite through many avenues, the least of which is credit card debt WHICH IS VOLUNTARY, but there are other ways they get our money which is NOT voluntary which is just as ominous and never discussed.
What are those ways that we have no say in?
1. 65 Taxes a year paid by everyone, which represents over 5 months of working straight for some gov taxation. What is the name of something where you work for 5 months and receive no pay??? SLAVERY!
2. Inflation is the other robber. Your money isn't worth what it was and that is how they get us.
Add to all of this our voluntary use of credit cards and you have a recipe for massive redistribution of wealth that is now at record levels
Its not wrong to want a good life style that is a responsible one, but it is wrong to "get" one through credit instead of exercising you right to keep what you make. If you could do that you would never have to be in debt. If the BANKERS, were out of the picture, we would have a great economy and great future for our children.
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» Hahahaha, Sorry, ateo, but walmart hires illegals now.... LOL So, our children are already..
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Que? No speaky the English prophit?
Posted by: ateo
» Couldn't have said it any better, my friend...... good job. LOL
Posted by: Prophit
» Educated but where are the jobs?
Posted by: DataDoc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: shangrilalad on Apr 3, 2007 4:45 AM
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Join the “Survival of the Fittest” movement and reap the rewards of Economic Cannibalism. EAT THE RICH!
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» RE: Agree
Posted by: ateo
» RE: AT THE RICH!
Posted by: Roberto
» Invest in... industrial-strength meat tenderizer production?
Posted by: eddie torres
» hahahahahaa, I like it...... its not all the rich though... some are pretty good. Its the ...
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mdoty on Apr 3, 2007 4:59 AM
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» RE: Riiiight...
Posted by: ateo
» RE: iiiight...and if 300million people move to the woods...
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Good point
Posted by: ateo
» RE: Good point
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: Well...
Posted by: ateo
» RE: iiiight...and if 300million people move to the woods...
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: iiiight...and if 300million people move to the woods...
Posted by: greenman
» extreme individualism == another American myth
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: iiiight...and if 300million people move to the woods...Sarcasm aside
Posted by: UnEasyOne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Apr 3, 2007 6:20 AM
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» RE: What would happen if debtors just didn't pay? Countries and Corps
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: What would happen if debtors just didn't pay? Countries and Corps
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» Yes, and the IRS is beginning to lose law suits in court. The IRS got so paniced about it....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Yes, and the IRS is beginning to lose law suits in court. The IRS got so paniced about it....
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» Collection agencies
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» Bad Avise
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: Bad Avise
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» Wake up, People, I don't think you realize how very bad all of this is.........
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Wake up, People, I don't think you realize how very bad all of this is.........
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
Comments are closed-
Posted by: NoPCZone on Apr 3, 2007 6:30 AM
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That number should scare the hell out of all of us.
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» good point-myth indeed
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: good point-myth indeed
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: good point-myth indeed
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: good point-myth indeed
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: good point-myth indeed
Posted by: rivka_m
» RE: good point-myth indeed
Posted by: rivka_m
» RE: good point-myth indeed - depends on a lot of things
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Myth of Home Ownership
Posted by: Dboy
» true again...nobody ever owns their home...
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» nobody ever owns their home...No Shit
Posted by: hole11
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Bobsays on Apr 3, 2007 6:49 AM
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And now it is all coming to haunt the UK. The political situation becomes more turbulent by the day. The political leaders are less and less able to bring the people with them. The chancellor of the exchequer (the finance minister) is losing his credibility cut by cut as each day unfolds.
Get ready for the UK to join the US in a global chill. Brrr! I am getting my financial house in order for this baby. I would recommend everyone do the same.
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» Yeah, and start thinking "outside the box" cause the old ways won't work........
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: dmbtiger on Apr 3, 2007 7:06 AM
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» RE: On the other hand...
Posted by: ateo
» RE: DOMINO DOOM
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: DOMINO DOOM - you don't pay other peoples debts
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» Heres what really makes me mad... Bankers don't lend REAL money..... They make their ...
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: greenman on Apr 3, 2007 7:09 AM
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That being the case, we need to live defensively, and we could all stand to review our lifestyles to see if some economy is in order. "Caveat Emptor", for those who are deficent in Latin, means "Let the buyer beware". That's good advice, and has been for the last 2000 years.
Greenman
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» RE: The real secret is...
Posted by: ateo
» RE: The real secret is...
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: The real secret is...
Posted by: churchofone
» RE: What about quality of life?
Posted by: ateo
» Not repeat myself, but...
Posted by: Philip Newton
» Good advice, greenman.... we are having some luck with changing thing in our town....
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: Beck on Apr 3, 2007 7:14 AM
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» RE: The system is all encompassing
Posted by: ateo
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Posted by: cranmore on Apr 3, 2007 7:36 AM
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In truth, you are NOT a homeOWNER. You are an owner of DEBT.
You are NOT a “homesteader”-protected by law from a forced sale to meet your debt.
The money you borrowed gives the lender the right to take over the property if your debt is not paid.
Miss too many payments and, chances are, there will be no
heavenly messenger like Clarence to keep the U-Haul truck from your front door.
Until you pay off that mortgage, you are merely a resident at that address.
Arnold
Melrose, Mass.
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» RE: Good point
Posted by: ateo
» You never do own that house
Posted by: JMorse
» RE: Yep, the system has you and it isn't letting go
Posted by: ateo
» Unless you completely change how you see it all.... that is going to be the real key to change.
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: Roberto on Apr 3, 2007 7:47 AM
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» Not only discipline but also sacrifice
Posted by: Trazom
» Yep
Posted by: Philip Newton
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Posted by: rwa on Apr 3, 2007 8:08 AM
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...we have seen a rise in food and energy costs, which are outside of the core rate. With the core rate at a high level, the Fed simply can not lower rates, even if the economy were to weaken further. ... the rise in food prices has about twice the effect on consumers as energy prices, and has been increasing significantly for a year of more, with no sign of letting up. The increase in food prices has, to a large degree, been driven by the use of corn in the manufacture of ethanol in the United States. This raised corn prices, wheat prices (due to the planting of corn rather than wheat), meat products and dairy products (corn is used to feed livestock), etc...
Julian Delasantellis:
Every time the price of crude rises and the Western popular media accuse OPEC nations of price gouging, their defense is that it's not them, it's the Western oil companies. The rising crack spread essentially proves their point. There's no real shortage of crude oil; actually, the world is awash in it. Spare refining capacity, that's another story...
During the summer of 2000, California electricity supply crisis, when large parts of the state were being subjected to daily electricity blackouts, the late Ken Lay, at that time chief executive officer of the Enron Corporation, a major player in the California wholesale electricity market, mocked David Freeman, chairman of the California Power Authority, by, according to Freeman, stating: "It doesn't matter what you crazy people in California do, because I got smart guys who can always figure out how to make money."
The main thing that Lay's smart guys, as well as the people in the oil industry who are not building new refinery capacity, have figured out is that the market for energy is very unique. When demand is high and supplies are tight, you make less money selling your product than by not selling it. This is what Enron did, through taking offline much of California-dedicated electricity-generating capacity for strategically timed (in the California summer, when air-conditioning puts intense demand on power supplies) "maintenance". This drove prices up and created scarcity, not just in California, but all across the western US's interlinked electricity power transmission grid.
"Maintenance" is the same reason that the oil companies annually, including this year, give for taking refinery capacity offline in spring, driving prices up, and setting the world's drivers up for the fuel price increase season that now lasts into early autumn...
According to the Energy Information Administration of the US Department of Energy, total world refinery capacity has only increased 1.5% from 2000 to 2005, from 81.53 to 82.8 million barrels a day (mb/d)...
Oil refinery construction can be a difficult and expensive process, one which probably requires the company to go into debt by either issuing corporate bonds or taking out lines of credit with large commercial banks.
Much better to take the money that would have been spent on refinery construction and use it more judiciously, on things like risk-free short-term dollar or euro treasury securities (currently earning about 5.25% annually) and increased and enhanced corporate salaries, perks and dividends. This strategy is certainly working; oil company profits are skyrocketing. Early this year, ExxonMobil, the world's largest oil company, reported the largest-ever quarterly and yearly profits, $10.71 billion and $36.13 billion respectively, ever reported by an American corporation.
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Apr 3, 2007 8:16 AM
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Use a s little credit as you can, get liquid and get ready. When the house of cards comes tumbling down it will get very ugly. If you have investments try to get them in foreign denominated accounts (€, etc) - no $US. Precious metals might be a good choice if you can deal with the flux.
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» Precious metals have progressive and impressively moved up as things deteriorate....
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: Ian MacLeod on Apr 3, 2007 8:42 AM
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a REAL debtor's prison. Much if not most of the prison industry is privatized now. If a law were passed that classifies credit debt as attempted theft by fraud, then people in debt could be put in prison, and used as slave labor (as many in prison now are - no medical, no safety regs, no one checking). On top of that, these prisons are paid by the government at ridiculously high rates, and are not checked to see that they're actually taking reasonable care of inmates (they don't - it ruins the bottom line), or hiring qualified people. That's also where a lot of the torture techniques we've been using on kidnapped - ah, I mean "captured" terrorist suspects - have come from.
It WILL happen, folks. Label someone a criminal, and they get little sympathy from the majority of the population. When it all goes into the toilet, people screwed by predatory lenders are going to be the targets for a lot of the blame by this chickenshit government that never blames itself and specializes in scapegoats. Count on it.
Ian
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» Investments are like going to the track
Posted by: colinmeister
» Agreed and understand if you invest in the stock market, ITS NOT A FREE MOVING MARKET!
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: QuestionAuthority on Apr 3, 2007 8:42 AM
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After the 1929 crash, many laws were passed (over the upper class and big business' complaints) to regulate banking and prevent just this kind of thing. However, since the Reagan years of "greed is good," these laws were eliminated in favor of allowing the so-called market to dominate and for business to do whatever it wishes to the consumer.
We need to go back to the wise business-based experience of the post-Depression laws while we still have time. Business is NOT always the consumer's friend and needs to be watched and regulated to prevent the greed heads from strip mining the economy to feather their own 200-room nests.
Of course, anyone that buys a house on an interest only loan deserves what they get. That has to be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard of.
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» RE: Isn't this what traditional mortgage banking is supposed to do?
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: Isn't this what traditional mortgage banking is supposed to do?
Posted by: Philip Newton
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Posted by: HughScott on Apr 3, 2007 8:53 AM
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Last month for the first in years, I let my checking account withdrawals exceed deposits. No big deal until I saw the annual percentage rate charged by BofA: 59%. Not even Mafia rates are that high!
Hugh E. Scott, editor of King-George.biz -- the only website with hardcopy proof of White House corruption.
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» RE: Bank of Ameria, king of the financial ripoff artists.
Posted by: Trazom
» Bank of America - most hated bank everywhere it goes!
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: Bank of Ameria, king of the financial ripoff artists.
Posted by: Dboy
» B of A IS a Mafia Bank
Posted by: Philip Newton
» There is an eco bank on line and they won't lend to gun runners or
Posted by: Prophit
» Citi Bank makes the top of my list of ripoff artists.
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Apr 3, 2007 8:51 AM
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Ditto that new-car-every-five-years mentality.
Maybe cutting back those excursions to Outback steakhouse, too.
Oh, and those visits to the mall, with the department store credit cards? Going to have to rethink that approach, too.
Being solidly middle class in the richest country on the planet isn't such a bad prospect. Being middle class and over-reaching for a wealthy lifestyle can land a body in trouble rather quickly, though.
Brace yourselves, middle class "consumers": the iPhone is about to be released, and you need to practice telling junior and little missy that $500-$700 for a phone isn't in the family budget.
That's what student loans are for.
...oops. My cynicism filter must have sprung a leak.
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Posted by: Sunfell on Apr 3, 2007 8:58 AM
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Then, they started reducing the commissions, cutting them by 75% or more in many cases. I had to scramble to make sales, and my paychecks shrank horribly. I got some credit cards about then. The commissions kept shrinking, and I had to piece my rent and utilities together from two paychecks. The credit card and its cash advances helped me get gas and groceries. When my pay shrank still more, I started having to skip payments to make ends meet. I saw the handwriting on the wall, and found another job. It had an actual salary, benefits, and promotions. But I was in a nasty mess credit wise. I went to the local consumer credit counseling service to see what I could do before I had to declare bankruptcy. They helped me sort out my credit cards, created a repayment plan, and got me back onto the path of solvency. I'll have my 'poverty debt' paid off by this summer.
It's easy to get caught in the credit trap. It's increasingly hard to get out of it- especially with the new bankruptcy laws. I started to save money, and no longer use credit cards. I do keep a couple to exercise so I am not a 'deadbeat' (someone who pays no interest in CC parlance), but I will not get trapped again.
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Posted by: PhantomOfLiberty on Apr 3, 2007 9:03 AM
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The lower-middle class needs to arm itself. Every family, every person with debt should make sure their houshold is protected then simply stop paying your credit card bills. Keep what you have. Keep your car, your home, your HDTV, but when someone comes a knockin', tell them to get the F**K off your property or you'll pump 'em full of lead. If everyone just stops paying their debt. Their debt is instantaneously erased. Viola!
Be prepared for a violent backlash though. This would be the great inciting incident of a second civil war, Rich vs Poor. Then we could all band together, storm the white house and take the F**K over!
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» RE: Just a fantasy *sigh*
Posted by: QuestionAuthority
» RE: Just a fantasy *sigh*
Posted by: badkitty
» I hope and pray your fathers right!!! WE need something since we are in this alone!!!!!
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: sausage on Apr 3, 2007 9:17 AM
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Apr 3, 2007 9:26 AM
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The lack of money for the working poor that runs up their debt just to survive.
The insistence of the consumerist culture that we have every little piece of technology.. TV, cell phone, cable, internet, car, etc.. The marketing of expensive fashions.
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» Good point, I bet if every household got rid of their TV and bought apple computers......
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: willymack on Apr 3, 2007 9:30 AM
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Posted by: MAD on Apr 3, 2007 9:48 AM
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As an economist, I have often wondered when Alternet would get its act together and focus on what will surely be the REAL undoing of this country. Briefcase nukes, Iraqi/Iranian terrorists, global warming, etc. take a back seat to the economic recklessness of the government, corporations and your average American mega-consumer.
Isn't it apparent what is going on yet? The US is attempting to devalue its way out of this mess while simultaneoulsly exhorting China and others let their currencies appreciate. This is a band-aid solution that will allay the fears of the US consumer for a few years but the erosion of our manufacturing base and inability to produce anything the world wants (apart from trashy movies and salacious details about Paris Hilton) has rendered us obsolete. We are left with military might to "pay" for the things we desire now. There is seemingly no cure for what ails us! The only reasonable solution is to stop spending on extraneous items entirely and start socking away cash. *Hysterical fit of laughter overtakes him* Sorry, just lost myself in a midday reverie. We all know that isn't going to happen.
The final solution is to hang on to Iraq with tooth and nail. The US has no choice but to secure that oil and prop up the dollar. This is why Bush insists on "staying the course" because the alternate path consists of withdrawing (upon failure of course) after having put us another trillion deeper into debt and faced with an increasing homeland defense burden when the suicide bombings commence internally. Then what are we left with? Depleted reserves and a continuing reliance on Asian and Middle Eastern countries to fund our lavish lifestyles.
In a word, the US is FUCKED. The only conceivable way out now is to start hanging people from the street lights and putting bullets through the empty heads of those who will benefit from our demise. Yes, violence is wrong. So do nothing and see if your own government, terrorists or invading armies subscribe to that same doctrine. The time for half-measures is over. It's just unfortunate that so many of you have it just well enough to continue toeing the Reaganomics line. Unfortunately, when the bough breaks and little super consumers start dropping from their $450K McMansions, the government will already be prepared to deal with uprisings that come too little, too late. And you all thought Blackwater was created to quell external strife! Hilarious!
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» Time for a little... economic "creativity"
Posted by: eddie torres
» RE: Show's over - go back to sleep America . . .God! I wish I could argue with you!
Posted by: UnEasyOne
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Posted by: longlivecheney on Apr 3, 2007 10:16 AM
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» Sometimes it is hard to avoid.
Posted by: colinmeister
» RE: Sometimes it is hard to avoid.
Posted by: longlivecheney
» RE: Sometimes it is hard to avoid.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Can sneak up on you!
Posted by: DataDoc
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Posted by: EagleMB on Apr 3, 2007 11:05 AM
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What ever happened to individual freedom? Is that no longer a good thing?
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» RE: Advertisers say no, American spending habits prove it
Posted by: ateo
» RE: Advertisers say no, American spending habits prove it
Posted by: EagleMB
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Posted by: solrev on Apr 3, 2007 11:30 AM
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Posted by: Dboy on Apr 3, 2007 11:56 AM
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Dboy
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» RE: why?
Posted by: dover23
» RE: why?
Posted by: zyxwvut
» RE: why?
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: wleming on Apr 3, 2007 12:01 PM
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usurious rates. Credit cards are not the problem: its capitalism... or as John Kenneth Galbraith defined it:" the idea that the very worst for the worst of reasons will do the very best... thats Capitlalism."
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» RE: credit cards? try capitalism
Posted by: dover23
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Posted by: Philip Newton on Apr 3, 2007 1:14 PM
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We, along with other unions, helped pass the Employee Free Choice Act, which will help, if we can beat the Bush veto, the majority of Americans who want to join a union without fear of reprisals. It's a start.
While we can and must begin to return to usury laws and rein in the paycheck loan vipers and their brood, we have to acknowledge where our mania for "more" has gotten us -- and the world in which we live.
The fact is, we have overspent our resources, in every way imaginable. In India, 250 MILLION people suffer abject want, but we mortgage our lives for piles of slave-made crap. Those very poor in India form a miserable class of wage slaves, taking well-paying jobs from the US, importing this aforementioned plastic crap into the US, wrecking our trade balance and everyone's economy. And enriching...who? We know the answer.
I am posting this elsewhere on this forum.
Peace.
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on Apr 3, 2007 1:42 PM
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Misuse of credit cards is the problem. You can try to shift the responsibility all you want, just like the people that try to shift responsibility for their obesity onto McDonalds, but in the end, the cardholder is the one that decides when to use them. (Yes, there are times when emergencies pop up, and times when they are all that's preventing someone from losing the basic necessities of life. I'm referring to the people who are fortunate enough to be able to cover the basics with their income.)
The underlying bitter truth is that we just have to face a declining standard of living. Our grandparents didn't have it all (home, car, furniture, etc.) within a few years of graduating. They had to work and scrimp and save to arrive there later in life.
Perhaps society should stop discouraging adults from staying at home with their parents. Staying on at home gives one the chance to really save on costs so that one can instead put aside money to later buy that home and car without putting oneself so deeply into debt. Extended families can have some other benefits as well.
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» I have problems with usury.
Posted by: DataDoc
» RE: There is nothing wrong with credit cards
Posted by: realmuzik
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on Apr 3, 2007 1:49 PM
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Silicon Valley is showing signs of renewed vitality as it develops technology to deal with our energy problems. What better opportunity to solve two problems at once? Invest in the green energy sector and really get manufacturing going again in the U.S. and at the same time shift into the post-oil economy smoothly.
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» Right, Silicon Valley is lobbying Congress for new H1-B visa limits for cheap foreign labor...
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on Apr 3, 2007 1:52 PM
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» RE: Incidently...
Posted by: dover23
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Posted by: Maryanne on Apr 3, 2007 2:31 PM
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We have always paid in full and within a couple days of receipt of the bill. No problems
Recently, however, we were charged $ 160.00 late fee and interest because the credit card received the payment ONE DAY LATE!
In the course of ongoing correspondence, the bank issuing the card totally ignored our past history, the lateness of the arrival of their bill (we subsequently found that previous bills did not arrive in a timely fashion or within a consistent period), and the limited time available to get payment to them on time. They assumed no responsibility, blamed the postal system for the late arrival of the bill (although all our other bills and bank statements arrive on time), and pointed out that by using their card we have accepted their terms.
Note that the fee for ONE DAY was $160. However, we should mention that as soon as this was placed on our bill, the maximum we could charge was raised, because we are such good customers!
Purpose is not service but profit for the company- even if the customer is not at fault.
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» RE: Credit card profits
Posted by: anonimus1
» RE: Credit card profits- Anonimus
Posted by: Maryanne
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Posted by: cognitorex on Apr 3, 2007 3:12 PM
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As regularly as the sun rises in the East, capitalism, as practiced in America today, spills, wastes or loses more financial resources every year than the total requirement of Medicare and Social Security combined. Greed leads to excessive risk taking. The U.S. financial industry regularly goes on speculative binges that enrich work-a-day bankers and thieves alike until the (always predicted) pyramid-like lending excesses end in catastrophe. I suggest a way out. Add, similarly to a Value Added Tax, one one hundredth of a per cent tax on financial transactions and the social programs for the average Joe and Jane would be well funded.--Who do you think (always, always, always) pays for the shoddy greedy self serving financial excesses in the first place? You guessed it, the same Janes and Joes that get sucker punched with the old, "Gee whiz, there just doesn't seem to be any money left over for you."
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Posted by: KiwiTT on Apr 3, 2007 3:45 PM
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I have now realised that the biggest asset you have is your ability to earn income. You need to do everything you can to maintain this, by staying current by learning skills and possibly changing employers a few times. However, it is this asset that the banks and finance organizations want and they will do everything in their power to get you into debt and pay them an additional tax (interest) on your income. Protect your income, the banks want it just as much as you do. Don't get sucked in.
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» RE: NZ is a large unknown financially
Posted by: ateo
» RE: NZ is a large unknown financially
Posted by: KiwiTT
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Posted by: Bushguiltyof911 on Apr 3, 2007 6:45 PM
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American taxpayers have paid the FED banking system
$173,875,979,369.66 in interest on 'our debt' in just five short months ,from October, 2005, through February, 2006.
No con artist or group of con artists in history has ever perpetrated a SCAM that even approaches the scope of this one.
Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson was adamantly opposed to the idea of a privately owned federal bank and said "I sincerely believe the banking institutions having the issuing power of money are more dangerous to liberty than standing armies ."
Andrew Jackson
"The bold effort the present bank had made to control the government are but premonitions of the fate that await the American people should they be deluded into a perpetuation of this institution or the establishment of another like it." ( we now have another one like it)
Henry Ford
Ford once said "It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."
The first two Federal Reserve Systems lasted about
20 years each and we are now almost a hundred years into the third one.
Go to www.911insidejob.net
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» Thanks Bushguilty, its amazing what our people don't know and who are the culprits....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Thanks Bushguilty, its amazing what our people don't know and who are the culprits....
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: MilesH6 on Apr 3, 2007 8:40 PM
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Here is a solution: Build gasification coal plants all across America. Hundreds, thousands of them. The coal gas can be used as the starting material for gasoline. Plus there will be a lot of electric power too.
America could actually have a total export excess of gasoline! For the first time in forty years. The wealth generated from this investment could pay the National Debt - AND build a realistic hydrogen economy from the construction of nuclear power plants and all the piping and storage needed for the country to run on hydrogen.
And the country could actually provide overseas aid where it is needed - for clean water, combat disease, fledgeling free market economies.
No more worries about the instability of petroleum supply.
Carbon dioxide? Tons, tons, tons, of it produced and released into the atmosphere for all the green plants in the world and that is part of the price tag.
Acid rain? Lots - but it could be controlled in sensitive areas. A lot of acidity could be controlled, though, by co-firing with crushed recycled concrete - a good way to get rid of it.
Take all the coal ash and bury it - instead of trying to bury the carbon dioxide, which is a ridiculous idea and potentially worse than releasing it because it could suffocate a lot of anaerobic microbes.
This whole thing could be done cost-share with industry - and I mean US industry too.
(There is a picuture of Al Gore on the page I am preparing this message - the ad says "Draft Al Gore! Wonder if he would like my idea)
Maybe some folks don't llike my idea. Maybe some other folks think I stole the idea.
Maybe the Chinese are already a quarter of the way in completing my idea
Maybe the Chinese will lend us some money when they have conquered us by forcing the dollar to be worth nothing more than about a tenth of a carbon credit and no monetary value on a global market exchange
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» Don't Worry- President Bush Agrees with you!
Posted by: DataDoc
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Posted by: Ambrose Pare on Apr 3, 2007 8:58 PM
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This story hits home hard with me, I'm the only one of my friends who has a positive bank balance. Were in our early twenties, and they've managed to rack up like 20k-50k of debt.
I've never seen anyone rack up so much debt on clothing and eating out every night. Scary stuff.
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» RE: Any suggestions
Posted by: sunflwrmoonbeam
» Reality Bites
Posted by: DataDoc
» RE: Any suggestions
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» suggestions on how to survive
Posted by: anonimus1
» When I was your age...
Posted by: Bobsays
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Posted by: UnEasyOne on Apr 3, 2007 11:52 PM
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» Yeah, tell the ALL the reasons why!!!!!
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: dannrusso on Apr 4, 2007 6:34 AM
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» RE: Graduate degree and no money?
Posted by: ateo
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Posted by: Vik on Apr 5, 2007 7:57 AM
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Posted by: symcokid on Apr 5, 2007 8:45 AM
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Posted by: adamselene on Apr 5, 2007 3:38 PM
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Posted by: iluvtnp on Apr 6, 2007 7:38 AM
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Posted by: Legaltender on Apr 6, 2007 2:23 PM
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We have a debt-money system, which means all money is loaned into circulation by the banks as a debt that must be paid back plus interest. It is a permanent debt in which there is always more debt than money to pay it back. A money supply is permanent and will never be paid back, and as a debt it must compound to astronomical amounts.
This design creates universal struggle, poverty, and unpayable compounding astronomical debt that causes rising prices. By confusing the nature of money, predators have taken control of our monetary system, dominating society and deforming humanity in the process.
I have written a short article that explains the detailed mechanics of how it all works (28 pages is short considering the complexity of the topic). Rich Country - Poor Country, a free download at www.hiddencures.com/Articles/natural-law-papers.htm.
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Posted by: DataDoc on Apr 3, 2007 12:48 AM
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Then I bought a house with my wife. We love it, but it did have some problems - a cat got in between the time we purchased and the time we moved in, and destroyed the carpets. Pulling the carpets and polishing the hardwood floors started my serious credit card debt. When the roof leaked, I replaced the shingles myself, but the expenses went on the card, same for the plumbing. As my card payments grew, I found I no longer had "spending money." I had to put any purchases on the card. I stopped dining out, and buying cd's. But I started to put food purchases on the credit card. They kept raising my interest rate, and I would call and get it back down, but my interest payments grew bigger and bigger.
We did take a pay cut at work, but got it back with the minimum wage increase. So my income has been stable over the last few years, however just the interest on my credit cards is now $200 per month. It's a good racket for the credit card provider! I now owe more than $15,000 to the credit card provider, and have no real dollars to buy food. Hey there's always the credit card! And government assistance.
I know many folks have even scarier stories, but I thought I should tell mine as a cautionary tale. A few thousand can grow to a few ten thousand quicker than you might think! It's called compound interest and it's assessed daily.
To keep folks in their homes we will need to create low-interest loan assistance on a large scale to relieve the debts of the poor with 2-3% interest loans. This is the future of charity - we can't build a house for everyone, but we can try to save the homes they have.
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» I think many of us have experienced what you described..... however, we are manipulated..
Posted by: Prophit
» I like this Jefferson quote better...
Posted by: ordaj
» Or maybe this one...
Posted by: ordaj
» RE: Get out of debt - you've gotta learn to scrimp!
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Get out of debt - you've gotta learn to scrimp!
Posted by: counterpoint
» 2nd that on bicycles
Posted by: Artkansas
» RE: 2nd that on bicycles - thanks guys
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» Don't you think it ironic that the Oil companies are going to aid us into getting fit......
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Get out of debt - you've gotta learn to scrimp!
Posted by: Philip Newton
» RE: Get out of debt without working!
Posted by: katz22br
» NO WAY!
Posted by: Wassermann
» YEAH, WAY...
Posted by: katz22br
» RE: Get out of debt without working!
Posted by: davincispb
» Thanks y'all for your kind advice!
Posted by: DataDoc
» OK - Here's some more (scary dangerous) advice - that you also may not need
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» PS If anybody knows of a better rewards program than that - Please tell me!
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» Good Advice
Posted by: DataDoc
» RE: Good Advice - I think you have really learned your lesson and won't be tempted
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Get out of debt without working!
Posted by: kmarkou
Comments are closed-
Posted by: edith on Apr 3, 2007 1:21 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, if you can depend on Congress for anything is that it will bail out banks before people, so the "contraction" of the economy, just around the corner, will solve the problem as will skyrocketing inflation that will monetize our debts and reduce debt's real value.
Hopefully, as the defense/homeland security fueled economy contracts and printing of federal funny money slows down, some of us will still have the couple of hundred a month needed to pay the interest charges on our shrunken but still potent credit card debt. Of course this "happy ending" depends on the Chinese not foreclosing on our red inked dead-drunk debtor nation. If they do, we are drowned, drowned drowned.
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» RE: Inspired by this article
Posted by: ateo
» RE: Meant to make a new post so I'm reposting...N/T
Posted by: ateo
» Checked out that Chase credit card you mentioned ateo
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Search and Rescue Anyone?
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Why shouldn't the gov't bail out the middle class?
Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: Why shouldn't the gov't bail out the middle class?
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Let's subsidize the mohair industry for another 50 years
Posted by: eddie torres
» RE: Why shouldn't the gov't bail out the middle class? - Fact is, it ain't gonna happen
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Conservasaurus - Why shouldn't the gov't bail out the middle class?
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Conservasaurus - Why shouldn't the gov't bail out the middle class?
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Why shouldn't the gov't bail out the middle class?
Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: Why shouldn't the gov't bail out the middle class?
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» we used to have something called bankruptcy for the consumer in the "good' old days
Posted by: edith
» RE: Search and Rescue Anyone?
Posted by: QuestionAuthority
» RE: Search and Rescue Anyone?
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Search and Rescue Anyone? - People like you are who bankruptcy laws are for.
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» PS: Ask yourself
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Search and Rescue Anyone?
Posted by: fearlessmanateehunter
» RE: Search and Rescue Anyone?
Posted by: Monitor523
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ateo on Apr 3, 2007 3:12 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anyway, what does this mean, "If we accepted their argument and blamed the "gamers" -- the new welfare queens -- they promised us a dividend in the neighborhood of several hundred dollars apiece in the form of lower interest rates." Gamers meaning people who work the system as if it were a game or what?
I do actually think a big part of the problem is the prevailing culture in America. People want to live a life style they really can't afford and so they take on debt they can't pay back to achieve it.
On the other hand there is the fact that once you add children into the equation a "comfortable" life style becomes borderline poverty. The solution is simply to not have children. That is what happens in Russia and many former Soviet nations. However, unlike them we don't mind having people from other countries stream into ours and replace our "native" population (they seem to have some kind of problem with the idea of Chinese immigrants replacing Russians so they are trying to promote child birth among their people). Thus, our population will continue to rise even as birth rates among native born Americans declines. America has labor (though, perhaps non-English speaking labor), and the current generation gets to enjoy their pampered middle class life style. It's win/win.
We'll also get to see whether racist nations such as China, Japan, Russia etc. are correct in assuming the people actually living in their country culturally and racially is primarily responsible for the continued existence and prosperity of their country. When whites are a minority in the U.S. if we are still a superpower then good on us, we win. If not, then I guess it'll be time for the racist Chinese/Russians/Japanese etc. and their homogeneous populations to rise to prominence. The U.S. has never really had a cultural identity so there is much less protectionism on this issue.
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» RE: Inspired by this article
Posted by: launcher
» RE: Ah, I've heard of that practice
Posted by: ateo
Comments are closed-
Posted by: crmcvin on Apr 3, 2007 3:51 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Get in debt to pay huge health and living expenses, struggle with taxes, fall even a bit behind on any thing and your treated like some sort of irresponsible criminal. Then you'll likely get your home or business (if you are on your own - as more and more of us are) levied by the state or feds and loose your middle class safety nets - all of which safety nets are of your own making anyway, since the current regime in power has undermined any meaningful official ones.
In a world where most kids start their first job between 30-60k in debt for the educations, I recommend cancelling every credit card except the one you need to travel for business (and keep a small cap on that one) and don't buy anything you don't need to sustain a modest life or a soothed the soul. Spend more time with friends making good food together and laughing and stay away from malls and expensive vacations, restaurants and entertainment centers. See a good movie or play now and then or go to free concerts. Cut back on fueling the consumption of things mentality in self and others. If we all did that for one year, the whole bogus industry would collapse, and new economy of sustainable service and community involvement could evolve. Of course, the way it's been structured by the money hounds called banks and credit card companies - in collusion with the US government, you'll probably collapse too. Either way, they get ya!
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» RE: Don't give them any ideas
Posted by: ateo
» I do this with my wife
Posted by: Bobsays
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Posted by: davidslesinger on Apr 3, 2007 3:57 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» How about teaching people to "just say no" to those promotions.
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: How about teaching people in general
Posted by: Sushi
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Posted by: bulbman on Apr 3, 2007 4:00 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» By then there will be no middle class. they want a slave class and they will get one.
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Agreed, Muslim's have finance and economics figured out
Posted by: ateo
» I am willing to say "we went into Iraq to destroy their financial system".... In fact, I will say..
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: anonimus1 on Apr 3, 2007 4:00 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only thing floating it are promises. Promises that it's backed by gold in Fort Knox -- gold that no longer resides there because it's been stolen and sold off to pay for war.
The thing to do is to get completely out of the US dollar, as much as possible. Buy gold coins (newer issue, not the old coins) and have them ready in a safe in your house that's bolted to your floor under your bed.
When the US economic collapse happens, you will then have money to barter with, to buy food and pay for healthcare. Or, in the probable event of pre-planned nationwide martial law (where most of everything you own will be confiscated by the US govt), you may be able to bribe your way out of the country. By then Mexico and Canada will already be part of the North American Union, so you will be wanting to bribe your way to Central or South America, or to Africa.
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» Your advice is partially sound.... if there is a collapse, there won't be food and Healthcare...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Hmmm...
Posted by: ateo
» New oil bourses in IRAN and RUSSIA - not in US dollars.
Posted by: anonimus1
» RE: I'm aware of the oil burse in Iran
Posted by: ateo
» Thanks, anonimus1, I was just getting ready to educate the poor boy to those very facts.
Posted by: Prophit
» Other "hot" investments
Posted by: anonimus1
» Anonimus, as usual, your are fully correct, but your an analyst as you said........
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Financial advice...
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Financial advice...
Posted by: anonimus1
» RE: Financial advice...
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Financial advice...
Posted by: yellow
Comments are closed-
Posted by: colinmeister on Apr 3, 2007 4:09 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I receive an average of 4 junk mails a week offering me credit cards with various incentives. I do not currently have a credit card, and nor do I want one - I learned the hard way by responding to Capital One in a positive way. I never bought anything on that card, yet racked up huge debt from a monthly charge and penalties for not paying it. When I paid everything off, and the card had expired, Capital One tried to re-instate my card ownership, and it took a lengthy telephone conversation with someone from South Asia to finally get rid of it.
At least from a car salesman you get a car of some sort. From the banksters you are likely to get nothing, and pay dearly for it!
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» I think Bankers rank below Used Car Salesmen.... In fact, they are responsible for the ...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Worse than used car salesmen.
Posted by: Gisele
» RE: A good position to be in, however...
Posted by: ateo
» At this point, with the direction we are heading, forget about your credit score and everything....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Gisele
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Ouch, read the fine print next time
Posted by: ateo
» RE: Ouch, read the fine print next time - read my post above about the Chase card
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Yea, it's something
Posted by: ateo
» use opt-out no mail list
Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: use opt-out no mail list
Posted by: ateo
» Absolutely, in fact, keep one card, use it sparingly, and close all the others... pay them off or...
Posted by: Prophit
» Capital One....
Posted by: Artkansas
» RE: Worse than used car salesmen.
Posted by: JSquercia
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Prophit on Apr 3, 2007 4:25 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Our corporations literally had two things they no longer have or pay for : 1. a Research and development dept and budget. 2. On site educational and skills training for their workers. Both are gone and I just read we have slipped to 7th in the world in techology advancement.
There is a redistribution of wealth to the elite through many avenues, the least of which is credit card debt WHICH IS VOLUNTARY, but there are other ways they get our money which is NOT voluntary which is just as ominous and never discussed.
What are those ways that we have no say in?
1. 65 Taxes a year paid by everyone, which represents over 5 months of working straight for some gov taxation. What is the name of something where you work for 5 months and receive no pay??? SLAVERY!
2. Inflation is the other robber. Your money isn't worth what it was and that is how they get us.
Add to all of this our voluntary use of credit cards and you have a recipe for massive redistribution of wealth that is now at record levels
Its not wrong to want a good life style that is a responsible one, but it is wrong to "get" one through credit instead of exercising you right to keep what you make. If you could do that you would never have to be in debt. If the BANKERS, were out of the picture, we would have a great economy and great future for our children.
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» Hahahaha, Sorry, ateo, but walmart hires illegals now.... LOL So, our children are already..
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Que? No speaky the English prophit?
Posted by: ateo
» Couldn't have said it any better, my friend...... good job. LOL
Posted by: Prophit
» Educated but where are the jobs?
Posted by: DataDoc
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Posted by: shangrilalad on Apr 3, 2007 4:45 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Join the “Survival of the Fittest” movement and reap the rewards of Economic Cannibalism. EAT THE RICH!
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» RE: Agree
Posted by: ateo
» RE: AT THE RICH!
Posted by: Roberto
» Invest in... industrial-strength meat tenderizer production?
Posted by: eddie torres
» hahahahahaa, I like it...... its not all the rich though... some are pretty good. Its the ...
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: mdoty on Apr 3, 2007 4:59 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Riiiight...
Posted by: ateo
» RE: iiiight...and if 300million people move to the woods...
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Good point
Posted by: ateo
» RE: Good point
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: Well...
Posted by: ateo
» RE: iiiight...and if 300million people move to the woods...
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: iiiight...and if 300million people move to the woods...
Posted by: greenman
» extreme individualism == another American myth
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: iiiight...and if 300million people move to the woods...Sarcasm aside
Posted by: UnEasyOne
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Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Apr 3, 2007 6:20 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: What would happen if debtors just didn't pay? Countries and Corps
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: What would happen if debtors just didn't pay? Countries and Corps
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» Yes, and the IRS is beginning to lose law suits in court. The IRS got so paniced about it....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Yes, and the IRS is beginning to lose law suits in court. The IRS got so paniced about it....
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» Collection agencies
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» Bad Avise
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: Bad Avise
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» Wake up, People, I don't think you realize how very bad all of this is.........
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Wake up, People, I don't think you realize how very bad all of this is.........
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
Comments are closed-
Posted by: NoPCZone on Apr 3, 2007 6:30 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That number should scare the hell out of all of us.
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» good point-myth indeed
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: good point-myth indeed
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: good point-myth indeed
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: good point-myth indeed
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: good point-myth indeed
Posted by: rivka_m
» RE: good point-myth indeed
Posted by: rivka_m
» RE: good point-myth indeed - depends on a lot of things
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Myth of Home Ownership
Posted by: Dboy
» true again...nobody ever owns their home...
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» nobody ever owns their home...No Shit
Posted by: hole11
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Posted by: Bobsays on Apr 3, 2007 6:49 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And now it is all coming to haunt the UK. The political situation becomes more turbulent by the day. The political leaders are less and less able to bring the people with them. The chancellor of the exchequer (the finance minister) is losing his credibility cut by cut as each day unfolds.
Get ready for the UK to join the US in a global chill. Brrr! I am getting my financial house in order for this baby. I would recommend everyone do the same.
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» Yeah, and start thinking "outside the box" cause the old ways won't work........
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: dmbtiger on Apr 3, 2007 7:06 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: On the other hand...
Posted by: ateo
» RE: DOMINO DOOM
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: DOMINO DOOM - you don't pay other peoples debts
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» Heres what really makes me mad... Bankers don't lend REAL money..... They make their ...
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: greenman on Apr 3, 2007 7:09 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That being the case, we need to live defensively, and we could all stand to review our lifestyles to see if some economy is in order. "Caveat Emptor", for those who are deficent in Latin, means "Let the buyer beware". That's good advice, and has been for the last 2000 years.
Greenman
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» RE: The real secret is...
Posted by: ateo
» RE: The real secret is...
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: The real secret is...
Posted by: churchofone
» RE: What about quality of life?
Posted by: ateo
» Not repeat myself, but...
Posted by: Philip Newton
» Good advice, greenman.... we are having some luck with changing thing in our town....
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: Beck on Apr 3, 2007 7:14 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The system is all encompassing
Posted by: ateo
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cranmore on Apr 3, 2007 7:36 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In truth, you are NOT a homeOWNER. You are an owner of DEBT.
You are NOT a “homesteader”-protected by law from a forced sale to meet your debt.
The money you borrowed gives the lender the right to take over the property if your debt is not paid.
Miss too many payments and, chances are, there will be no
heavenly messenger like Clarence to keep the U-Haul truck from your front door.
Until you pay off that mortgage, you are merely a resident at that address.
Arnold
Melrose, Mass.
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» RE: Good point
Posted by: ateo
» You never do own that house
Posted by: JMorse
» RE: Yep, the system has you and it isn't letting go
Posted by: ateo
» Unless you completely change how you see it all.... that is going to be the real key to change.
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Roberto on Apr 3, 2007 7:47 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Not only discipline but also sacrifice
Posted by: Trazom
» Yep
Posted by: Philip Newton
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Posted by: rwa on Apr 3, 2007 8:08 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...we have seen a rise in food and energy costs, which are outside of the core rate. With the core rate at a high level, the Fed simply can not lower rates, even if the economy were to weaken further. ... the rise in food prices has about twice the effect on consumers as energy prices, and has been increasing significantly for a year of more, with no sign of letting up. The increase in food prices has, to a large degree, been driven by the use of corn in the manufacture of ethanol in the United States. This raised corn prices, wheat prices (due to the planting of corn rather than wheat), meat products and dairy products (corn is used to feed livestock), etc...
Julian Delasantellis:
Every time the price of crude rises and the Western popular media accuse OPEC nations of price gouging, their defense is that it's not them, it's the Western oil companies. The rising crack spread essentially proves their point. There's no real shortage of crude oil; actually, the world is awash in it. Spare refining capacity, that's another story...
During the summer of 2000, California electricity supply crisis, when large parts of the state were being subjected to daily electricity blackouts, the late Ken Lay, at that time chief executive officer of the Enron Corporation, a major player in the California wholesale electricity market, mocked David Freeman, chairman of the California Power Authority, by, according to Freeman, stating: "It doesn't matter what you crazy people in California do, because I got smart guys who can always figure out how to make money."
The main thing that Lay's smart guys, as well as the people in the oil industry who are not building new refinery capacity, have figured out is that the market for energy is very unique. When demand is high and supplies are tight, you make less money selling your product than by not selling it. This is what Enron did, through taking offline much of California-dedicated electricity-generating capacity for strategically timed (in the California summer, when air-conditioning puts intense demand on power supplies) "maintenance". This drove prices up and created scarcity, not just in California, but all across the western US's interlinked electricity power transmission grid.
"Maintenance" is the same reason that the oil companies annually, including this year, give for taking refinery capacity offline in spring, driving prices up, and setting the world's drivers up for the fuel price increase season that now lasts into early autumn...
According to the Energy Information Administration of the US Department of Energy, total world refinery capacity has only increased 1.5% from 2000 to 2005, from 81.53 to 82.8 million barrels a day (mb/d)...
Oil refinery construction can be a difficult and expensive process, one which probably requires the company to go into debt by either issuing corporate bonds or taking out lines of credit with large commercial banks.
Much better to take the money that would have been spent on refinery construction and use it more judiciously, on things like risk-free short-term dollar or euro treasury securities (currently earning about 5.25% annually) and increased and enhanced corporate salaries, perks and dividends. This strategy is certainly working; oil company profits are skyrocketing. Early this year, ExxonMobil, the world's largest oil company, reported the largest-ever quarterly and yearly profits, $10.71 billion and $36.13 billion respectively, ever reported by an American corporation.
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Apr 3, 2007 8:16 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Use a s little credit as you can, get liquid and get ready. When the house of cards comes tumbling down it will get very ugly. If you have investments try to get them in foreign denominated accounts (€, etc) - no $US. Precious metals might be a good choice if you can deal with the flux.
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» Precious metals have progressive and impressively moved up as things deteriorate....
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: Ian MacLeod on Apr 3, 2007 8:42 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
a REAL debtor's prison. Much if not most of the prison industry is privatized now. If a law were passed that classifies credit debt as attempted theft by fraud, then people in debt could be put in prison, and used as slave labor (as many in prison now are - no medical, no safety regs, no one checking). On top of that, these prisons are paid by the government at ridiculously high rates, and are not checked to see that they're actually taking reasonable care of inmates (they don't - it ruins the bottom line), or hiring qualified people. That's also where a lot of the torture techniques we've been using on kidnapped - ah, I mean "captured" terrorist suspects - have come from.
It WILL happen, folks. Label someone a criminal, and they get little sympathy from the majority of the population. When it all goes into the toilet, people screwed by predatory lenders are going to be the targets for a lot of the blame by this chickenshit government that never blames itself and specializes in scapegoats. Count on it.
Ian
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» Investments are like going to the track
Posted by: colinmeister
» Agreed and understand if you invest in the stock market, ITS NOT A FREE MOVING MARKET!
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: QuestionAuthority on Apr 3, 2007 8:42 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After the 1929 crash, many laws were passed (over the upper class and big business' complaints) to regulate banking and prevent just this kind of thing. However, since the Reagan years of "greed is good," these laws were eliminated in favor of allowing the so-called market to dominate and for business to do whatever it wishes to the consumer.
We need to go back to the wise business-based experience of the post-Depression laws while we still have time. Business is NOT always the consumer's friend and needs to be watched and regulated to prevent the greed heads from strip mining the economy to feather their own 200-room nests.
Of course, anyone that buys a house on an interest only loan deserves what they get. That has to be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard of.
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» RE: Isn't this what traditional mortgage banking is supposed to do?
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: Isn't this what traditional mortgage banking is supposed to do?
Posted by: Philip Newton
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Posted by: HughScott on Apr 3, 2007 8:53 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Last month for the first in years, I let my checking account withdrawals exceed deposits. No big deal until I saw the annual percentage rate charged by BofA: 59%. Not even Mafia rates are that high!
Hugh E. Scott, editor of King-George.biz -- the only website with hardcopy proof of White House corruption.
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» RE: Bank of Ameria, king of the financial ripoff artists.
Posted by: Trazom
» Bank of America - most hated bank everywhere it goes!
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: Bank of Ameria, king of the financial ripoff artists.
Posted by: Dboy
» B of A IS a Mafia Bank
Posted by: Philip Newton
» There is an eco bank on line and they won't lend to gun runners or
Posted by: Prophit
» Citi Bank makes the top of my list of ripoff artists.
Posted by: Sojourner
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Apr 3, 2007 8:51 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ditto that new-car-every-five-years mentality.
Maybe cutting back those excursions to Outback steakhouse, too.
Oh, and those visits to the mall, with the department store credit cards? Going to have to rethink that approach, too.
Being solidly middle class in the richest country on the planet isn't such a bad prospect. Being middle class and over-reaching for a wealthy lifestyle can land a body in trouble rather quickly, though.
Brace yourselves, middle class "consumers": the iPhone is about to be released, and you need to practice telling junior and little missy that $500-$700 for a phone isn't in the family budget.
That's what student loans are for.
...oops. My cynicism filter must have sprung a leak.
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Posted by: Sunfell on Apr 3, 2007 8:58 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Then, they started reducing the commissions, cutting them by 75% or more in many cases. I had to scramble to make sales, and my paychecks shrank horribly. I got some credit cards about then. The commissions kept shrinking, and I had to piece my rent and utilities together from two paychecks. The credit card and its cash advances helped me get gas and groceries. When my pay shrank still more, I started having to skip payments to make ends meet. I saw the handwriting on the wall, and found another job. It had an actual salary, benefits, and promotions. But I was in a nasty mess credit wise. I went to the local consumer credit counseling service to see what I could do before I had to declare bankruptcy. They helped me sort out my credit cards, created a repayment plan, and got me back onto the path of solvency. I'll have my 'poverty debt' paid off by this summer.
It's easy to get caught in the credit trap. It's increasingly hard to get out of it- especially with the new bankruptcy laws. I started to save money, and no longer use credit cards. I do keep a couple to exercise so I am not a 'deadbeat' (someone who pays no interest in CC parlance), but I will not get trapped again.
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Posted by: PhantomOfLiberty on Apr 3, 2007 9:03 AM
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The lower-middle class needs to arm itself. Every family, every person with debt should make sure their houshold is protected then simply stop paying your credit card bills. Keep what you have. Keep your car, your home, your HDTV, but when someone comes a knockin', tell them to get the F**K off your property or you'll pump 'em full of lead. If everyone just stops paying their debt. Their debt is instantaneously erased. Viola!
Be prepared for a violent backlash though. This would be the great inciting incident of a second civil war, Rich vs Poor. Then we could all band together, storm the white house and take the F**K over!
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» RE: Just a fantasy *sigh*
Posted by: QuestionAuthority
» RE: Just a fantasy *sigh*
Posted by: badkitty
» I hope and pray your fathers right!!! WE need something since we are in this alone!!!!!
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: sausage on Apr 3, 2007 9:17 AM
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Apr 3, 2007 9:26 AM
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The lack of money for the working poor that runs up their debt just to survive.
The insistence of the consumerist culture that we have every little piece of technology.. TV, cell phone, cable, internet, car, etc.. The marketing of expensive fashions.
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» Good point, I bet if every household got rid of their TV and bought apple computers......
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: willymack on Apr 3, 2007 9:30 AM
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Posted by: MAD on Apr 3, 2007 9:48 AM
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As an economist, I have often wondered when Alternet would get its act together and focus on what will surely be the REAL undoing of this country. Briefcase nukes, Iraqi/Iranian terrorists, global warming, etc. take a back seat to the economic recklessness of the government, corporations and your average American mega-consumer.
Isn't it apparent what is going on yet? The US is attempting to devalue its way out of this mess while simultaneoulsly exhorting China and others let their currencies appreciate. This is a band-aid solution that will allay the fears of the US consumer for a few years but the erosion of our manufacturing base and inability to produce anything the world wants (apart from trashy movies and salacious details about Paris Hilton) has rendered us obsolete. We are left with military might to "pay" for the things we desire now. There is seemingly no cure for what ails us! The only reasonable solution is to stop spending on extraneous items entirely and start socking away cash. *Hysterical fit of laughter overtakes him* Sorry, just lost myself in a midday reverie. We all know that isn't going to happen.
The final solution is to hang on to Iraq with tooth and nail. The US has no choice but to secure that oil and prop up the dollar. This is why Bush insists on "staying the course" because the alternate path consists of withdrawing (upon failure of course) after having put us another trillion deeper into debt and faced with an increasing homeland defense burden when the suicide bombings commence internally. Then what are we left with? Depleted reserves and a continuing reliance on Asian and Middle Eastern countries to fund our lavish lifestyles.
In a word, the US is FUCKED. The only conceivable way out now is to start hanging people from the street lights and putting bullets through the empty heads of those who will benefit from our demise. Yes, violence is wrong. So do nothing and see if your own government, terrorists or invading armies subscribe to that same doctrine. The time for half-measures is over. It's just unfortunate that so many of you have it just well enough to continue toeing the Reaganomics line. Unfortunately, when the bough breaks and little super consumers start dropping from their $450K McMansions, the government will already be prepared to deal with uprisings that come too little, too late. And you all thought Blackwater was created to quell external strife! Hilarious!
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» Time for a little... economic "creativity"
Posted by: eddie torres
» RE: Show's over - go back to sleep America . . .God! I wish I could argue with you!
Posted by: UnEasyOne
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Posted by: longlivecheney on Apr 3, 2007 10:16 AM
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» Sometimes it is hard to avoid.
Posted by: colinmeister
» RE: Sometimes it is hard to avoid.
Posted by: longlivecheney
» RE: Sometimes it is hard to avoid.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Can sneak up on you!
Posted by: DataDoc
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Posted by: EagleMB on Apr 3, 2007 11:05 AM
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What ever happened to individual freedom? Is that no longer a good thing?
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» RE: Advertisers say no, American spending habits prove it
Posted by: ateo
» RE: Advertisers say no, American spending habits prove it
Posted by: EagleMB
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Posted by: solrev on Apr 3, 2007 11:30 AM
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Posted by: Dboy on Apr 3, 2007 11:56 AM
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Dboy
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» RE: why?
Posted by: dover23
» RE: why?
Posted by: zyxwvut
» RE: why?
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: wleming on Apr 3, 2007 12:01 PM
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usurious rates. Credit cards are not the problem: its capitalism... or as John Kenneth Galbraith defined it:" the idea that the very worst for the worst of reasons will do the very best... thats Capitlalism."
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» RE: credit cards? try capitalism
Posted by: dover23
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Posted by: Philip Newton on Apr 3, 2007 1:14 PM
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We, along with other unions, helped pass the Employee Free Choice Act, which will help, if we can beat the Bush veto, the majority of Americans who want to join a union without fear of reprisals. It's a start.
While we can and must begin to return to usury laws and rein in the paycheck loan vipers and their brood, we have to acknowledge where our mania for "more" has gotten us -- and the world in which we live.
The fact is, we have overspent our resources, in every way imaginable. In India, 250 MILLION people suffer abject want, but we mortgage our lives for piles of slave-made crap. Those very poor in India form a miserable class of wage slaves, taking well-paying jobs from the US, importing this aforementioned plastic crap into the US, wrecking our trade balance and everyone's economy. And enriching...who? We know the answer.
I am posting this elsewhere on this forum.
Peace.
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on Apr 3, 2007 1:42 PM
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Misuse of credit cards is the problem. You can try to shift the responsibility all you want, just like the people that try to shift responsibility for their obesity onto McDonalds, but in the end, the cardholder is the one that decides when to use them. (Yes, there are times when emergencies pop up, and times when they are all that's preventing someone from losing the basic necessities of life. I'm referring to the people who are fortunate enough to be able to cover the basics with their income.)
The underlying bitter truth is that we just have to face a declining standard of living. Our grandparents didn't have it all (home, car, furniture, etc.) within a few years of graduating. They had to work and scrimp and save to arrive there later in life.
Perhaps society should stop discouraging adults from staying at home with their parents. Staying on at home gives one the chance to really save on costs so that one can instead put aside money to later buy that home and car without putting oneself so deeply into debt. Extended families can have some other benefits as well.
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» I have problems with usury.
Posted by: DataDoc
» RE: There is nothing wrong with credit cards
Posted by: realmuzik
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on Apr 3, 2007 1:49 PM
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Silicon Valley is showing signs of renewed vitality as it develops technology to deal with our energy problems. What better opportunity to solve two problems at once? Invest in the green energy sector and really get manufacturing going again in the U.S. and at the same time shift into the post-oil economy smoothly.
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» Right, Silicon Valley is lobbying Congress for new H1-B visa limits for cheap foreign labor...
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on Apr 3, 2007 1:52 PM
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» RE: Incidently...
Posted by: dover23
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Posted by: Maryanne on Apr 3, 2007 2:31 PM
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We have always paid in full and within a couple days of receipt of the bill. No problems
Recently, however, we were charged $ 160.00 late fee and interest because the credit card received the payment ONE DAY LATE!
In the course of ongoing correspondence, the bank issuing the card totally ignored our past history, the lateness of the arrival of their bill (we subsequently found that previous bills did not arrive in a timely fashion or within a consistent period), and the limited time available to get payment to them on time. They assumed no responsibility, blamed the postal system for the late arrival of the bill (although all our other bills and bank statements arrive on time), and pointed out that by using their card we have accepted their terms.
Note that the fee for ONE DAY was $160. However, we should mention that as soon as this was placed on our bill, the maximum we could charge was raised, because we are such good customers!
Purpose is not service but profit for the company- even if the customer is not at fault.
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» RE: Credit card profits
Posted by: anonimus1
» RE: Credit card profits- Anonimus
Posted by: Maryanne
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Posted by: cognitorex on Apr 3, 2007 3:12 PM
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As regularly as the sun rises in the East, capitalism, as practiced in America today, spills, wastes or loses more financial resources every year than the total requirement of Medicare and Social Security combined. Greed leads to excessive risk taking. The U.S. financial industry regularly goes on speculative binges that enrich work-a-day bankers and thieves alike until the (always predicted) pyramid-like lending excesses end in catastrophe. I suggest a way out. Add, similarly to a Value Added Tax, one one hundredth of a per cent tax on financial transactions and the social programs for the average Joe and Jane would be well funded.--Who do you think (always, always, always) pays for the shoddy greedy self serving financial excesses in the first place? You guessed it, the same Janes and Joes that get sucker punched with the old, "Gee whiz, there just doesn't seem to be any money left over for you."
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Posted by: KiwiTT on Apr 3, 2007 3:45 PM
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I have now realised that the biggest asset you have is your ability to earn income. You need to do everything you can to maintain this, by staying current by learning skills and possibly changing employers a few times. However, it is this asset that the banks and finance organizations want and they will do everything in their power to get you into debt and pay them an additional tax (interest) on your income. Protect your income, the banks want it just as much as you do. Don't get sucked in.
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» RE: NZ is a large unknown financially
Posted by: ateo
» RE: NZ is a large unknown financially
Posted by: KiwiTT
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Posted by: Bushguiltyof911 on Apr 3, 2007 6:45 PM
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American taxpayers have paid the FED banking system
$173,875,979,369.66 in interest on 'our debt' in just five short months ,from October, 2005, through February, 2006.
No con artist or group of con artists in history has ever perpetrated a SCAM that even approaches the scope of this one.
Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson was adamantly opposed to the idea of a privately owned federal bank and said "I sincerely believe the banking institutions having the issuing power of money are more dangerous to liberty than standing armies ."
Andrew Jackson
"The bold effort the present bank had made to control the government are but premonitions of the fate that await the American people should they be deluded into a perpetuation of this institution or the establishment of another like it." ( we now have another one like it)
Henry Ford
Ford once said "It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."
The first two Federal Reserve Systems lasted about
20 years each and we are now almost a hundred years into the third one.
Go to www.911insidejob.net
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» Thanks Bushguilty, its amazing what our people don't know and who are the culprits....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Thanks Bushguilty, its amazing what our people don't know and who are the culprits....
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: MilesH6 on Apr 3, 2007 8:40 PM
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Here is a solution: Build gasification coal plants all across America. Hundreds, thousands of them. The coal gas can be used as the starting material for gasoline. Plus there will be a lot of electric power too.
America could actually have a total export excess of gasoline! For the first time in forty years. The wealth generated from this investment could pay the National Debt - AND build a realistic hydrogen economy from the construction of nuclear power plants and all the piping and storage needed for the country to run on hydrogen.
And the country could actually provide overseas aid where it is needed - for clean water, combat disease, fledgeling free market economies.
No more worries about the instability of petroleum supply.
Carbon dioxide? Tons, tons, tons, of it produced and released into the atmosphere for all the green plants in the world and that is part of the price tag.
Acid rain? Lots - but it could be controlled in sensitive areas. A lot of acidity could be controlled, though, by co-firing with crushed recycled concrete - a good way to get rid of it.
Take all the coal ash and bury it - instead of trying to bury the carbon dioxide, which is a ridiculous idea and potentially worse than releasing it because it could suffocate a lot of anaerobic microbes.
This whole thing could be done cost-share with industry - and I mean US industry too.
(There is a picuture of Al Gore on the page I am preparing this message - the ad says "Draft Al Gore! Wonder if he would like my idea)
Maybe some folks don't llike my idea. Maybe some other folks think I stole the idea.
Maybe the Chinese are already a quarter of the way in completing my idea
Maybe the Chinese will lend us some money when they have conquered us by forcing the dollar to be worth nothing more than about a tenth of a carbon credit and no monetary value on a global market exchange
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» Don't Worry- President Bush Agrees with you!
Posted by: DataDoc
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Posted by: Ambrose Pare on Apr 3, 2007 8:58 PM
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This story hits home hard with me, I'm the only one of my friends who has a positive bank balance. Were in our early twenties, and they've managed to rack up like 20k-50k of debt.
I've never seen anyone rack up so much debt on clothing and eating out every night. Scary stuff.
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» RE: Any suggestions
Posted by: sunflwrmoonbeam
» Reality Bites
Posted by: DataDoc
» RE: Any suggestions
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» suggestions on how to survive
Posted by: anonimus1
» When I was your age...
Posted by: Bobsays
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Posted by: UnEasyOne on Apr 3, 2007 11:52 PM
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» Yeah, tell the ALL the reasons why!!!!!
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: dannrusso on Apr 4, 2007 6:34 AM
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» RE: Graduate degree and no money?
Posted by: ateo
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Posted by: Vik on Apr 5, 2007 7:57 AM
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Posted by: symcokid on Apr 5, 2007 8:45 AM
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Posted by: adamselene on Apr 5, 2007 3:38 PM
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Posted by: iluvtnp on Apr 6, 2007 7:38 AM
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Posted by: Legaltender on Apr 6, 2007 2:23 PM
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We have a debt-money system, which means all money is loaned into circulation by the banks as a debt that must be paid back plus interest. It is a permanent debt in which there is always more debt than money to pay it back. A money supply is permanent and will never be paid back, and as a debt it must compound to astronomical amounts.
This design creates universal struggle, poverty, and unpayable compounding astronomical debt that causes rising prices. By confusing the nature of money, predators have taken control of our monetary system, dominating society and deforming humanity in the process.
I have written a short article that explains the detailed mechanics of how it all works (28 pages is short considering the complexity of the topic). Rich Country - Poor Country, a free download at www.hiddencures.com/Articles/natural-law-papers.htm.
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Tax the Corporations and the Rich or Take Draconian Cuts -- the Decision Is Ours
Home Underwater? Walk Away from Geithner's Perverse 'Homeowner Relief' Plan
Fury at Wall St. Banks Fuels Public Action for Move Your Money Campaign




