Bill Moyers: Was the Financial Bailout Just a Slick, Friendly Takeover of the Federal Government?

The following is excerpted from the transcript of Bill Moyers' interview with Ohio Democratic Rep. Marcy Kaptur and Simon Johnson, former head of the International Monetary Fund, from PBS's Bill Moyers Journal.

Bill Moyers: I sat in a theater packed with passionate moviegoers, every one of them seemingly aghast at the Wall Street skullduggery exposed by Michael Moore in his latest film. It's called Capitalism: A Love Story. Here's an excerpt:

Michael Moore: We're here to get the money back for the American people. Do you think it's too harsh to call what has happened here a coup d'etat? A financial coup d'etat?

Marcy Kaptur: That's, no. Because I think that's what's happened. Um, a financial coup d'etat?

MM: Yeah.

MK: I could agree with that. I could agree with that. Because the people here really aren't in charge. Wall Street is in charge.

Bill Moyers: That's the progressive representative from Ohio, Marcy Kaptur, she's with me now. She has a master’s from the University of Michigan, did graduate study at M.I.T. and still lives in the same house in the Toledo working-class neighborhood where she grew up.
She's in her 14th term in Congress, the longest-serving Democratic woman in the history of the House, and she's an outspoken financial watchdog on three important committees: appropriations, budget and oversight and government reform.

Also with me is a familiar face to viewers of this broadcast. Simon Johnson is the former chief economist at the International Monetary Fund. He now teaches global economics and management at M.I.T.'s Sloan School of Management. He's one of the founders of the Web site Baselinescenario.com. I check it out daily for Simon's take on the economic and financial crisis.

It's been a year since the great collapse, and both my guests are well equipped to assess what's happened since then. Welcome to you both.

MK: Thank you.

BM: Let's look at this story that I just read from the Associated Press this week about how Treasury Secretary [Timothy] Geithner is on the phone several times a day with a select group of very powerful Wall Street bankers, especially Citigroup, J.P. Morgan, Goldman Sachs.

He will talk to them when members of Congress have to leave a message on the answering machine. And these are the bankers who helped bring on this calamity and who are now benefiting from it. What does that say to you?

MK: That says to me that Wall Street and Washington is a circuit. And because Mr. Geithner headed the New York Fed that that historic relationship, unfortunately, continues. And it gives them special access and special power to influence policy.

Simon Johnson: Well, I think it really tells you how the system works. The system is based on access and is based on what on Wall Street shaping Washington's view of what's important.

It's the people who are very close to Mr. Geithner before when he was the head of the New York Fed. Before he became treasury secretary. These people have unparalleled access.
And in a crisis, when everything is up for grabs, you don't know what's going on, the people who will take your phone calls, right, in government and people who are going to be standing in the oval office, making the key decisions. That's the heart of the system. That's the heart of how you get your agenda through, by changing their worldview.

MK: And they also move people. In other words, Mr. Geithner came from the New York Fed, he came from Wall Street, and he becomes Secretary of the Treasury. His predecessor, Mr. [Henry] Paulson, came from Goldman Sachs, and he becomes Secretary of Treasury.

You can go back decades, and you will see that there's this revolving door between Wall Street and Washington. And I recently asked Chairman [Ben] Bernanke of the Federal Reserve, "Let me ask you a question. Would you be willing to consider a reform where the Cleveland Fed would have equal power to the New York Fed, in terms of how the Fed is run?" And his answer was, "No."

BM: And why did you ask that question?

MK: Because I think we need to democratize the Fed. I think that my region of the country, which is suffering so heavily from these decisions that were made by Wall Street and Washington, we need to have voice.

And our bankers, who didn't do the bad things, our community bankers, who are having to pay higher fees, shouldn't be treated this way. Why should the people who did it right be penalized for those that did it wrong?

SJ: Remember, Wall Street convinced us that trading derivatives without any regulation, that all these kind of crazy housing loans, which are very dangerous for consumers, that all of this was sensible. All of this was a good way to sustain growth.

That was wrong. That wasn't it. That's not the end of the story.

In the crisis, when things got bad, they also convinced the key people in Washington that they, the bankers, the big bankers, the Wall Street bankers -- who are really responsible for all of these problems -- they should be saved. Not just their banks, but they individually and should be saved. Their jobs, their pensions, all their perks. It's an extraordinary moment.

BM: You asked on your blog, just this week, a question I want to put to you now, and to both of you. You asked: "Does this crisis reflect something about the disproportionate influence of a few incompetent investment bankers, or a deeper breakdown of capitalism?" What's your answer to your own question?

SJ: Well, definitely, there's disproportionate influence of some fairly incompetent bankers, that's for sure. That's what we're seeing today. That's what we've seen over the past few months.

I think on the issue of capitalism, we have to take this very seriously. To me, at least, the financial part of our capitalism is very seriously broken.

They persuaded us to allow them to take incredible risks. And then they pushed all the downside, all those losses onto us, the taxpayer, at the same time as really hammering hard all the people who were duped, essentially, into taking out loans. People lost their houses. It's an absolute tragedy. This combination cannot go on.

And yet, the opportunity for real reform has already passed. And there is not going to … not only is there not going to be change, but I'll go further. I'll say it's going to be worse, what comes out of this, in terms of the financial system, its power, and what it can get away with.

BM: Why is it going to how is it going to be worse?

SJ: Well, we used to have a dozen or so substantial big banks, now we're down to four. Now we're down to four big banks that have a lot more market power and a lot more political power. They make the campaign contributions. They shape agendas in ways that are that are really quite scary.

If you look, for example, at derivatives and the debate on whether or not derivatives should be regulated in a sensible manner. And at this point, actually, the Obama administration is leaning in a better direction. But the big financial players are absolutely against any kind of sensible regulation. And I think they're going to win.

MK: Let me give you a reality from ground zero in Toledo, Ohio. Our foreclosures have gone up 94 percent. A few months ago, I met with our realtors. And I said, "What should I know?" They said, "Well, first of all, you should know the worst companies that are doing this to us." I said, "Well, give me the top one." They said, "J.P. Morgan Chase."

I went back to Washington that night. And one of my colleagues said, "You want to come to dinner?" I said, "Well, what is it?" He said, "Well, it's a meeting with Jamie Dimon, the head of J.P. Morgan Chase." I said, "Wow, yes. I really do."

So, I go to this meeting in a fancy hotel, fancy dinner, and everyone is complimenting him. I mean, it was just like a love fest. They finally got to me, and my point to ask a question.

I said, "Well, I don't want to speak out of turn here, Mr. Dimon." I said, "But your company is the largest forecloser in my district. And our Realtors just said to me this morning that your people don't return phone calls."

I said, "We can't do work-outs." And he looked at me, he said, "Do you know that I talk to your governor all the time?" He said, "Our company employs 10,000 people in Ohio. "

And I'm thinking, What is that? A threat? And he said, "I speak to the mayor of Columbus." I said, "Why don't you come further north?" I said, "Toledo, Cleveland -- where the foreclosures are just skyrocketing." He said, "Well, we'll have someone call you." And he gave me a card. And they never did.

For two weeks, we tried to reach them. And finally, I was on a national news show. And I told this story. They called within 10 minutes. And they said, "Oh, we'll work with you. We'll try to do some work-outs in your area."

We planned the first one after working with them for weeks and weeks and weeks. Their people never showed up. And it was a Friday. Our people had taken off work. They'd driven from all these locations to come.

We kept calling J.P. Morgan Chase saying, "'Where's your person? Where's your person?" And they finally sent somebody down from Detroit by 3 in the afternoon. But our people had been waiting all morning, and a lot of people … that's how they treat our people.

BM: You did a remarkable thing on the floor of the House recently. And I want to show my audience a clip of a speech in which you urge people to break the law: