COMMENTS: 324
10 Reasons Why Conservatives' Fiscal Ideas Are Dangerous
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Yes, it's true. The conservatives -- that's right, the very same folks who just dragged us along on an eight-year drunken binge during which they borrowed-and-spent us into the deepest financial catastrophe in nearly a century -- are now standing there, faces full of moral rectitude, fingers pointing and shaking in our faces, righteously lecturing the rest of us on the topic of "fiscal responsibility."
I didn't think it was possible. I mean, they were mean enough drunk -- but hung over, in the clear light of morning, it turns out they're even worse.
I know. The choice is hard. Laugh? Cry? Scream? All three at once? It would almost be funny, if it weren't such clear evidence of a complete break with objective reality -- and their ideas of what that "fiscal responsibility" means weren't so dangerous to the future of the country.
The next episode in this surreal moral drama is set to take place next Monday, when President Obama will convene a "fiscal responsibility summit" at the White House to discuss the right's bright new idea for getting us out of this hole: let's just dismantle Social Security and Medicare.
As usual, this proposal is encrusted with a thick layer of diversions, misconceptions, factual errors and out-and-out lies. Here are some of the most pungent ones, along with the facts you need to fire back.
1. Conservatives are "fiscally responsible." Progressives just want to spend, spend, spend.
The comeback to the first assertion is easy: Just point and laugh. Any party that thought giving cost-plus, no-bid contracts to Halliburton was fiscally responsible (and let's not even get started on handing Hank Paulson $700 billion, no questions asked) deserves to be made fun of for using words that are simply beyond its limited comprehension.
And a quick look back at actual history makes them into even bigger fools. For decades now, liberal presidents have been far and away more restrained in their spending, and more likely to turn in balanced budgets. Part of this is that they've got a good grasp of Keynes, and know that the best way out of bad financial times is to make some up-front investments in the American people -- investments which have almost always, in the end, returned far more than we put in.
Conservatives believe wholeheartedly in investment and wealth-building when individuals, families, and corporations do it. But their faith in the power of money well-spent -- and the value of accumulated capital -- completely vanishes when it comes to government spending. They think it's morally wrong for government to ever invest or hold capital -- despite the long trail of successes that have enriched us all and transformed the face of the nation.
Under the conservative definition of "fiscal responsibility, " we'd have never set up the GI Bill and the FHA, which between them launched the post-war middle class (and made possible the consumer culture that generated so much private profit for so many). We wouldn't have 150 years of investment in public education, which for most of the 20th century gave American business access to the smartest workers in the world; or the interstate highway system, which broadened trade and tourism; or research investment via NASA and DARPA, the defense research agency that gave us the microchip and the Internet and made a whole new world of commerce possible. There wouldn't be the consumer protection infrastructure that allowed us to accept new products with easy confidence; or building and food inspectors who guarantee that you're not taking your life in your hands when you flip on a light or sit down to dinner.
What we're proposing now is not "spending." It's the next round of investment that will create the next great chapter in the American future. And the most fiscally irresponsible thing we can do right now is lose our nerve, and fail to prepare for what's ahead.
2. It's not gonna work. Everybody knows the Democrats spent us into this mess in the first place.
The only remaining "everybodys" who "know" this are the ones who are simply impervious to facts.
Ronald Reagan came into office with a national debt of less than $1 trillion. Mostly by cutting taxes on the rich, he grew that debt to $2.6 trillion. George H.W. Bush broke his "no new taxes" pledge, but it wasn't enough to keep the debt from ballooning another 50 percent, to $4.2 trillion.
Bill Clinton''s aggressive budget balancing slowed the growth rate a bit: eight years later, he left office with a debt of $5.7 trillion -- and a tight budget in place that, if followed, would have paid whole thing off by 2006. Unfortunately, George W. Bush had no intention of following through with Clinton's plan: on his watch, the debt nearly doubled, from $5.7 to $10.6 trillion. So, nearly 80 percent of the current debt -- about which conservatives now complain -- was acquired on the watch of the three most recent conservative Presidents.
3. $10.6 trillion? But I got this e-mail that says we're looking at a national debt of $56 trillion...
Wow. That's a big, scary number, all right. It's also a perfect example of one of the classic ways people lie with statistics.
This particular mathematical confection was whipped up by Wall Street billionaire and former Nixon Commerce Secretary Pete Peterson, whose Peterson Foundation is the driving force behind the effort to defund Social Security. According to this group, "As of September 30, 2008, the federal government was in a $56 trillion-plus fiscal hole based on the official financial consolidated statements of the U.S. government. This amount is equal to $483,000 per household and $184,000 per American."
This "fact" is only true if you're willing to do a reckless amount of time traveling. The $56 trillion number is what you get if you project the entire U.S. debt a full 75 years into the future, which is how far out you have to go before you can get into numbers that big. In other words: we're not in that hole now -- but we might be in 2084, if we keep going the way we're going now.
Of course, it should be obvious that we're not going to keep going that way -- and that's the other fatal flaw. Peterson's calculations assume that there will be exactly no changes in Social Security and Medicare policy or inputs in the next 75 years -- something that has almost a zero chance of actually happening. Also, there's the usual problem with any kind of long-range projection: even a small error in the calculations at the start will compound over time, creating enormous errors at the end of the range. If he's off by even one percent (which is highly likely), the projection's worthless, even 20 years down the road.
Peterson and his posse are laying bets that Americans are too mathematically and logically challenged to notice the flaws in his reasoning -- even though the holes are big enough to drive an entire generation of retired Boomers through.
4. Whatever. It's still irresponsible to take on that much debt.
Even John McCain's economic adviser thinks this one's wrong. Here's what Mark Zandi said about the U.S. national debt on the February 1 edition of Meet The Press:
It's 40 percent of GDP now. If the projections are right, we get to 60, maybe 70 percent of GDP, which is high, but it's manageable in our historic -- in our history we've been higher, as you pointed out. And moreover, it's very consistent with other countries and their debt loads. And more -- just as important, investors understand this. They know this and they're still buying our debt and interest rates are still very, very low. So we need to take this opportunity and be very aggressive and use the resources that we have at our disposal.
To repeat: Debt is never a good thing; but history is on our side here. We've carried a lot more debt than this in the past; and so have other fiscally responsible countries. And the world's investors are still flocking to buy U.S. bonds -- even though with inflation, they're getting slightly negative interest rates, which means they're effectively paying us to use their money. If they have that much faith in our economy, we're probably not wrong to have a little faith in ourselves. By world standards, we're still looking like a very good bet.
5. But Social Security is headed for disaster. It's out of control!
It's a testament to the short attention spans of the media that the cons try to launch this talking point every six months or so -- and every damned time, the punditocracy goes running flat-out after the bait, fur flying, like an eager but not particularly bright Irish Setter. And then people like us need to collar them, make them sit, scratch their ears, and calmly explain all over again (as if it were brand-new information) that Social Security is in perfectly fine shape, and the conservatives are making much ado about nothing -- again.
The Congressional Budget Office projects that the Social Security trust fund will continue to run a surplus until 2019. (More conservative fund trustees put the date at 2017.) The fund's total assets should hold out until 2046. And that's assuming that nothing changes at all.
If it turns out we do need to make adjustments, there are two very simple ones that will more than make up the difference. One is that we could raise the cap. Right now, people only pay Social Security taxes on the first $102,000 they earn; everything over that goes into their pockets tax-free. Increasing that amount would cover even a fairly large shortfall. And in the unlikely event that fails, we can talk about raising the retirement age to 70 -- a sensible step, given how much longer we live now.
6. Ending Social Security would be well worth it, because putting those deductions back in people's pockets would provide a big enough stimulus to get us out of this mess.
Anyone who spouts this is apparently not counting on the 70 million Boomers whose wallets would snap shut permanently if you withdrew their retirement benefits just a few years before they're going to need them. As Digby put it:
Boomers are still sitting on a vast pile of wealth that's badly needed to be put to work investing in this country. But it's shrinking dramatically and it's making people very nervous. As [Dean] Baker writes, if one of the purposes of the stimulus is to restore some confidence in the future, then talk of fiddling with social security and medicare is extremely counterproductive. If they want to see the baby boomers put their remaining money in the mattress or bury in the back yard instead of prudently investing it, they'd better stop talking about "entitlement reform." This is a politically savvy generation and they know what that means.
If they perceive that social security is now on the menu, after losing vast amounts in real estate and stocks, you can bet those who still have a nestegg are going to start hoarding their savings and refusing to put it back into the economy. They'd be stupid not to.
Bad economies get that way because people no longer trust the future, and refuse to take on the risks associated with spending, lending, or investing. Social Security was created in the first place because FDR understood that a guaranteed old-age income is a major risk-reducer -- not just for elders, but also for their working adult children. And it still is. Affirming the strength of Social Security not only raises the confidence of the Boomers, as Dean and Digby have pointed out, but also of their Xer and Millennial children, who are going to have to add "looking after Mom and Dad" to their list of big-ticket financial obligations if that promise is broken.
Breaking a 70-year-old generational promise for the sake of a little temporary financial stimulus is the very definition of penny-wise and pound-foolish.
7. OK, forget I even mentioned Social Security. Besides, the real problem is Medicare.
Finally, we come down to the truth. There's no question that exponentially rising health care costs -- both Medicare and private insurance -- are unaffordable in the long term; and that getting ourselves back on track financially means getting serious about addressing that.
On close examination, even Peterson's figures eventually reveal this truth. (About 85% of his projected 2084 debt comes from expected Medicare.) Unfortunately, though, most of his materials lump Social Security and Medicare together, creating a fantasy figure that blows the real problem so far out of proportion that you can't even begin to have a rational conversation about it -- which was, of course, the whole point of ginning those numbers up in the first place.
8. Next, you're going to tell me that some kind of government-sponsored health care is the answer.
Yes, we are. The Congressional Budget Office notes that health care costs were only 7 percent of the GDP in 1970 -- and are over double that, at 14.8 percent, now.
Much of that increase came about because in 1970, most health care providers ran on a not-for-profit basis. Hospitals were run by governments, universities, or religious-based groups; in some states, private for-profit care was actually illegal. Even insurance companies, like Blue Cross, were non-profit corporations. AdminIstrators and doctors were still paid handsomely; but there were no shareholders in the picture trying to pull profits out of other people's misfortune.
The first step to restoring affordability is to kick the profiteers out of the system. (According to the most conservative estimates, this one step would drop the national health care bill by at least $200 billion a year.) The second is to put it in the hands of administrators whose first concern is providing high-quality care instead of big bottom lines; and who are accountable to the voters if they fail to perform. Our experience with Medicare and the VA -- which, between them, currently provide care to over 70 million Americans, or about 22% of the country -- proves that we are perfectly capable of providing first-class, affordable care through the government.
If Costa Rica and Canada can manage this, why can't we?
9. But this Peterson guy's a billionaire Wall Streeter. Obviously, he knows something about finance...
Let's punt this one to William Greider:
Peterson, who made his fortune on Wall Street, never raised a word about the dangers of hyper leveraged finance houses gambling other people's money. He never expressed qualms about the leveraged buyout artists who were using debt finance to rip apart companies. He didn't fund an all out effort to stop Bush from raiding the Social Security surplus to pay for tax cuts for the rich.
But now he wants folks headed into retirement who have already prepaid a surplus of $2.5 trillion to cover their Social Security retirements to take a cut and to work a few years longer to cover the money squandered on bailing out banks, wars of choice abroad, and tax cuts for the few.
Basically, we're only having this conversation in the first place because a conservative ideologue was willing to pony up $1 billion of his own money to fund a "foundation" devoted to killing Social Security. Given that most politicians -- both Democrat and Republican -- are extremely unwilling to touch the notorious "third rail of politics," it's pretty clear that next Monday's "fiscal responsibility summit" wouldn't even be happening if Peterson wasn't bankrolling the Beltway buzz on this terrible idea.
10. OK -- if killing Social Security isn't the answer, just how do you propose to get us out of this?
The idea of a White House summit on fiscal responsibility is a good one -- but only if it focuses on real solutions to our real problems.
Cutting health care costs by getting all Americans into a rationally-managed system that puts delivering excellent care above delivering shareholder profits has to be a central part of any long-term economic health strategy. We're also about 15 years overdue for a complete overhaul of our military budget, too much of which is still focused on fighting the Soviet Union instead of responding to the actual challenges we're currently facing. Finally, it's time to ask the wealthy -- who've profited more than anyone from the past 15 years, and yet haven't paid anywhere near their fair share -- to step in a pay up for the system that enabled them to build that pile in the first place.
There's plenty we can be doing to actually reduce the national debt, and really stimulate the economy for both the short run and the long haul, without ending Social Security and sending hundreds of millions of Americans into sudden panic over their retirement. True "fiscal responsibility" can never be achieved by breaking promises.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: FreeAmerica on Feb 27, 2009 12:27 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No one supporting that should talk about fiscal responsibility.
Social security should be positively funded, not a ponzai scheme. We should lift caps on contributions, and do a needs test on recipients, and positively fund it. Medicine should be non-profit, but non-government too.
The 65 tril number is estimated future govt obligations, and is scary but probably valid. By then it will be two weeks pay for a CEO. BFD.
When you are in debt, stop spending more than you take in. That is fiscal responsibility.. Anything else is lip service and excuses.
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» RE: The past is no excuse for bad behavior
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: The past is no excuse for bad behavior
Posted by: ZenQuixote
» RE: The past is no excuse for bad behavior
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: The past is pointy head
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» A Malkin fan?
Posted by: HeroesAll
» Deficit spending is the "responsible" thing to do now?
Posted by: CUnknown
» Yes!
Posted by: brunowe
» You keep telling yourself that
Posted by: CUnknown
» Different scenarios
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Different scenarios
Posted by: CUnknown
» It isn't inconsistent
Posted by: brunowe
» Yes, he did
Posted by: CUnknown
» RE: You keep telling yourself that
Posted by: aichbe
» RE: A Malkin fan?
Posted by: 2thepoint
» It's irresponsible to drive the economy into a ditch then complain about the size of the towtruck!!
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Medicine should be non-profit
Posted by: kettleblack
» RE: Medicine should be non-profit
Posted by: 2thepoint
» Bullshit.
Posted by: EinMD
» No means test for Social Security
Posted by: dctim
» RE: No means test for Social Security
Posted by: JSquercia
» Tell you what, FA
Posted by: hurricane hugo
» RE: The past is no excuse for doing nothing.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: The past is no excuse for bad behavior
Posted by: kennybent
» RE: The past is no excuse for bad behavior
Posted by: Morell
» It ISN'T???
Posted by: jvaljon1
» HellOoooo.....Social Security IS "positively funded"!
Posted by: jvaljon1
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Posted by: freelyb on Feb 27, 2009 12:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The initial bailout of the financial elites was haphazard and foolish, agreed to by members of both congressional parties during an election cycle. It did, however, happen on Republican watch and was timed for exactly that purpose. It was a devious plan implemented in a devious way, and Dems did not have what it took to slow it down or stop it.
The stimulus package, meanwhile, is a different story. It's an evil made necessary by imminent economic and environmental meltdown. We all need to take responsibility, but particularly those who had the biggest hand in making such huge messes over time. Republicans, that would be you guys. Period.
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» Fiscal Facts
Posted by: slydad
» RE: Fiscal Facts
Posted by: Waff2010
» RE: Fiscal Facts
Posted by: Bibsisis
» RE: Fiscal Facts
Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: Fiscal Facts
Posted by: Bibsisis
» RE: Fiscal Facts
Posted by: jvaljon1
» The bailout is the perpetuation of the ideologies that got us into this mess.
Posted by: rafaeltoral
» RE: The bailout is the perpetuation of the ideologies that got us into this mess.
Posted by: Bibsisis
» RE: The bailout is the perpetuation of the ideologies that got us into this mess.
Posted by: slydad
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mmckinl on Feb 27, 2009 1:11 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the mean time these tax cuts for the rich have created a gaping federal deficit and trillions of dollars of hot money that helped inspire the toxic debt instruments and create the housing crisis while causing the greatest wealth gap in our history.
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» Correction:
Posted by: slydad
» RE: Correction:
Posted by: hms2004
» Well it worked for JFK.....
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: Well it worked for JFK.....
Posted by: mmckinl
» This is total BS!!
Posted by: yellow
» Tax Cuts for the Rich Create Jobs
Posted by: edgar1
» Stupidity from right-wing know-nothings
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» And another thing
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» ReallyBearish
Posted by: FredJones
» No, you need to check your facts
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» NOW I see the problem
Posted by: FredJones
» The actual Wiki quote is
Posted by: slydad
» RE: The actual Wiki quote is
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» I'm sorry if this will sound snarky
Posted by: FredJones
» And arrogant
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» more ad hominem arguments?
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: I'm sorry if this will sound snarky
Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: The actual Wiki quote is
Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: NOW I see the problem
Posted by: JSquercia
» JSquercia
Posted by: FredJones
» No they didn't.
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Tax Cuts for the Rich Create Jobs
Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: Disasters Create Jobs
Posted by: kettleblack
» Wilson and Roosevelt agree with you
Posted by: FredJones
» Correct
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: The Biggest Lie: Tax Cuts for the Rich Create Jobs
Posted by: Bibsisis
» RE: The Biggest Lie: Tax Cuts for the Rich Create Jobs
Posted by: mmckinl
» RE: The Biggest Lie: Tax Cuts for the Rich Create Jobs
Posted by: JSquercia
Comments are closed-
Posted by: slydad on Feb 27, 2009 1:11 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sure, social security and medicare need to be looked at, but what is on conservative minds for the right here and now is the huge power grab that is this so called stimulus plan. This plan is just throwing money at every liberal idea that is out there including national health care. The plan ignores the real culprit behind the current recession which is government meddling in the free market. Instead they are meddling even more and attempting to redistribute wealth on a scale never before seen.
Another reason Sara us out of touch (actually, she's not really out of touch, she's just trying to deflect the real conversation so she doesn't have to argue the real issue.) is because she is equating Republicans and Conservatives. Sure, the Republicans are supposed to be the Conservative party but that's not actually the case. They may be more conservative than the Democrats, but based on what I've observed over the last eight years, I would have to say that the conservatives are certainly not running things. If they were, we wouldn't have lost the last two elections.
A lot of her claims about the Republicans have at least some validity, but don't think that conservatives are in that same tank.
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» A bold and fanciful statement
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: A bold and fanciful statement
Posted by: john mont
» RE: A bold and fanciful statement
Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: A bold and fanciful statement
Posted by: ConnecttheDots
» RE: A bold and fanciful statement
Posted by: Cybershaman
» slydad rethug troll alert!
Posted by: dover23
» RE: Hey Dad there is no freemarket!
Posted by: marid
» put down the crackpipe, dude
Posted by: hurricane hugo
» RE: Out of touch
Posted by: wild colonial boy
» RE: Again, free market capitalism does not exist!
Posted by: Quist
» Right . . .
Posted by: slydad
» RIGHT, Quist....and neither does true freedom
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: Another Straw Man or Red Herring reply.
Posted by: Quist
» How often must educated people tell dogmatic morons that capitalism is what it is and not some ideal
Posted by: yellow
» It must be SOOOOO hard for you.....
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: Out of touch
Posted by: Bibsisis
» what a twit
Posted by: FredJones
Comments are closed-
Posted by: DrBrian on Feb 27, 2009 1:26 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some people are just cognitively and emotionally constituted to resist innovation, cling to the past, grovel before authority and lack concern for the wellbeing of others. Nature and nurture conspire to make them this way, and no amount of reason can dissuade them.
The good news is that the hardcore conservatives are a minority, and the softcore ones have finally caught on that they've been screwing themselves, and almost everyone else, by supporting the GOP. Even media brainwashing was unable to outweigh experiential learning.
The bad news is that there are still areas of the country, mostly in the south, where hardcore conservatives still constitute the majority.
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» I beg your pardon . . .
Posted by: slydad
» Prove or retract
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Prove or retract
Posted by: john mont
» RE: Prove or retract
Posted by: nutsack
» RE: Prove or retract
Posted by: iolanthe
» RE: Prove or retract
Posted by: Kathy-B
» RE: Prove or retract
Posted by: hms2004
» It's Not Jesus' Fault
Posted by: iolanthe
» RE: Prove or retract
Posted by: iolanthe
» Honestly now . . .
Posted by: slydad
» You are made of fail.
Posted by: ENDIF
» RE: I beg your pardon . . .
Posted by: john mont
» You're a moron
Posted by: EinMD
» DUH check Saturday's Alternet headlines
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: I beg your pardon . . .
Posted by: iolanthe
» RE: encourage sexual promiscuity
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: I beg your pardon . . .
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: I see you have your Rush Limbaugh quotes
Posted by: marid
» RE: Good News & Bad
Posted by: hms2004
» RE: Good News & Bad
Posted by: nutsack
» RE: Good News & Bad
Posted by: iolanthe
» What the hell does that even mean?
Posted by: brock_samson
» DrBrian
Posted by: FredJones
» Dear Fred,
Posted by: DrBrian
» DrBrian......
Posted by: FredJones
» Fred, history is not on your side.
Posted by: DrBrian
» DrBrian, Hitler said the same thing to the Reichstag in 1933
Posted by: FredJones
» Like the Way Limbaugh et al use "Liberal"??
Posted by: iolanthe
» iolanthe
Posted by: FredJones
» Dear Fred
Posted by: DrBrian
» DrBrian
Posted by: FredJones
» They are not conservatives
Posted by: melloe2
» BINGO
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: BINGO
Posted by: JSquercia
» JSquercia
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: JSquercia
Posted by: JSquercia
» How are they different, JSquercia?
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: Good News & Bad
Posted by: EagleX
» RE: Good News & Bad
Posted by: ploneglenn
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Posted by: Perry Logan on Feb 27, 2009 2:48 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's fun to watch the Repubs dig themselves in deeper, as they continue to reiterate their discredited ideas. It's as if they had no memory of recent events. It makes them look a little crazy to normal people, which is excellent.
Thoughts on the Bush non-legacy.
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Posted by: monkeyrocketsurgeon on Feb 27, 2009 2:59 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Great Article
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
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Posted by: rafaeltoral on Feb 27, 2009 3:16 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You cant expect to reduce the deficit when every imaginary dollar printed or created through fractional reserve banking is owed interest on it the second it is created by the FED.
This interest can only be repaid through the creation of more money. Its a never ending debt cycle.
This is why we work so much more and recieve so much less. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure this stuff out people.
All of that 10 trillion or so for the bailouts was created from nothing. This is very good for the FED since this means more interest and ultimatly more money to be printed.
You see the FED is a privatly owned bank that is not controlled in any way by the Federal Government. This privatly owned bank is owned by other small privatly owned banks. The people and families that own these banks are the real rulers of the world.
Since the Fed controls the money supply they control the value of said money. They manipulate the value to rob us of all that has real value in the world.
Congress needs to do as the constitution states and create its own interest free money. What gives this money real value is the ability to pay your taxes with it. There is no need to pay interest on something that was created from nothing. Its fucking stupid.
So I guess you can keep wasting your time on ideas that will never work, or you can choose to address the real problems.
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» RE: the FED is a privatly owned bank that is not controlled in any way by the Federal Government
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» The debt can never be paid off under our current system
Posted by: CUnknown
» Technically true, but practically false
Posted by: FredJones
» Uniting issue
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: Uniting issue
Posted by: CUnknown
» Jackson was one of the few pres to go up against the central bank and live.
Posted by: rafaeltoral
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Ottomatic on Feb 27, 2009 4:12 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hell, I don't know!
Flush it down the Toilet!
Let's build a Embassy in Iraq,
Build another arms base overseas.
Bring America to it's knees!
FLUSH! FLUSH! FLUSH!
Flush your money down the toilet!
Where did all the money go?
Hell, I don't know!
Let's give a TAX brake
To the Rich!
While you get stuck
Digging a ditch!
FLUSH it all down the Toilet.
Away she goes!
WHERE SHE STOPS?
NOBODY KNOWS!
Excerpt from the song FLUSH! by
OTTO & The HEMORRHOIDS!
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» RE: FLUSH! FLUSH! FLUSH it down the TOILET!
Posted by: Bibsisis
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Posted by: pinnacle on Feb 27, 2009 4:19 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most Republicans aren't overly conservative. They do, however, believe they are more capable of making decisions regarding the money they "earn" than relying on government to decide for them. They also believe the American system allows everyone the opportunity to "work" to achieve a better life and perhaps even "wealth". The people who "bitch" about the USA aren't the immigrants who move here ---- they are people who were born here and feel "entitled" to sit on their asses while asking others to support them!
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» RE: It Ain't Just Government Spending That Got Us Into Trouble!
Posted by: rafaeltoral
» RE: It Ain't Just Government Spending That Got Us Into Trouble!
Posted by: iolanthe
» RE: It Ain't Just Government Spending That Got Us Into Trouble!
Posted by: SteveO
» RE: It Ain't Just Government Spending That Got Us Into Trouble!
Posted by: hms2004
» RE: Agree and pinnacle is full of it.
Posted by: Quist
» RE: a single piece of data
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: a single piece of data
Posted by: iolanthe
» Agreed
Posted by: iolanthe
» To-mae-toe, To-mah-toe
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: Embrace Pantheism?!?
Posted by: Quist
» LMAO ----- sorry!
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: It Ain't Just Government Spending Yes it is ! You got Bushed !
Posted by: That_SOB
Comments are closed-
Posted by: edgar1 on Feb 27, 2009 12:18 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
States and private groups do an outstanding job of helping genuinely ill people who lack health insurance or their own resources. Even with Obama, we remain a capitalist nation with fifty sovereign states and a federal govt with clearly delineated powers beyond which the feds should not and in many cases cannot go. If that bothers you, lobby Bernie Sanders for a new constitution. If we have the great depression I think we'll have, we probably will end up with another constitution anyway, but it may not be to your liking. Those feeble may be deemed "expendable". Or maybe the "competent" will be deemed expendable. Who knows?
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» really? i didnt realise that! Thanks for enlightening me
Posted by: zola77
» Read the Constitution, Enjoy Your Trip To NY, and Listen
Posted by: edgar1
» RE: ead the Constitution, Enjoy Your Trip To NY, and Listen
Posted by: illumineer
Comments are closed-
Posted by: FredJones on Feb 27, 2009 3:48 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Eliminate the middleman, so to speak.
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» RE: ...and how would you assume to do this?
Posted by: Quist
» The fact that you haven't seen it doesn't mean it's not happening. :)
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: The fact that you haven't seen it doesn't mean it's not happening. :)
Posted by: snowdancer76
» Snowdancer
Posted by: FredJones
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Feb 27, 2009 4:51 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And another way would be to eliminate the cap on income that is taxed and to make the tax progressive.
Raising the retirement age is something that will take a change in our corporate culture. There is a problem with the idea that goes deeper than simply changing the Social Security law.
One part of the problem is that lifetime employment is a thing of the past and employers now feel free to have lay-offs whenever they feel it useful, sometimes just to get a boost quarterly profits and consequently a bigger bonus.
The other problem is good jobs are generally unavailable older people seeking work. Employers don't like older workers either out of prejudice or possibly out of concern for increased health insurance costs.
In combination, these two facts of life mean that there is already a serious unemployment problem for people over 50. It is nearly impossible to find full-time work with benefits for a person over 55 and the problem becomes even more severe with each additional year of age.
If the solution to any problem is to increase the age of retirement it will be necessary to do something about the unemployment problem for those below that retirement age.
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» Good points
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Since Bush has been in power the mortality rate has increased.
Posted by: Quist
» RE: Since Bush has been in power the mortality rate has increased.
Posted by: JSquercia
» Evidence please
Posted by: FredJones
» Raising the Retirement Age
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield on Feb 27, 2009 5:27 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» thank you for pointing out what most people seem to miss.
Posted by: rafaeltoral
» I voted for Nader thrice and saw this mess coming a long time ago and tried to warn others.
Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
» RE: Lesser of two evils???
Posted by: Quist
» Picking between the lesser of two evils is like telling me to marry any "Tom, Dick, and Harry" !
Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
» RE: Relax Jennifer.
Posted by: Quist
» Arrgh, what you said reminded me of my stupid date on Valentine's Day who wanted me to be a
Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
» RE: Relax Jennifer.
Posted by: Quist
» RE: Lesser of two evils???
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» It is never rational
Posted by: CUnknown
» zomg! Nader n Paulz!
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: zomg! Nader n Paulz!
Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
» RE: well if both parties were run by the old white men
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» "If the nation wanted Nader in office he'd be there by now."
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» RE: I agree!
Posted by: Quist
» RE: WTF!
Posted by: Quist
» Quist what the hell are YOU whining about?
Posted by: zipoka
» RE: Make false assumptions much zipoka?!?
Posted by: Quist
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Purple Girl on Feb 27, 2009 5:30 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Then lets review the 'Star Wars' and toilet Seat binge spending. The Union Busting, the S&L scandal, the Coke induced euphoric spending through conspicuous spending by the 'Miami Vice ' wannabe's.Which lead US right into Pres 'Read my Lips' who further the illusion and the Debt.
Time to Switch uniform shirts- In comes NAFTA, the Repug Congress, The Modernization Act..and everything that further laid the Ground work for the New King George (How Ironic).
Now I could have actually lead this back to Nixon, where it really began. But at least we Caught that SOB- something his Proteges have very hard to assure would not happen again.And who are now 'All the Presidents Men' in hindsight- Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz.Granted they are not the only players in the Organized Crime Syndicate- but some have one foot in the bucket now, or are pushing up Black daisies, and others are mere foot soldiers. Bringing these three 'Greatest American Traitors' to justice will assure those affiliated will go down in history as Co conspirators, thus Shaming their Family names, or ending their careers once & for all (Rove).
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» Keep going back!
Posted by: SteveO
» RE: pushing up Black daisies
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Comments are closed-
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jdub on Feb 27, 2009 5:51 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Republicans don't argue rationally. They don't deal well with reality and facts. They aren't going to take any responsibility for their past actions or those of the Bush administration. They represent the upper economic classes and have at least since the 1920s.
Because most Americans are uneducated and ignorant of history and current affairs, Republicans have been able to sucker people whose interests they don't really represent into supporting them. ... All those "Joe the Plumbers" out there.
So, Dems, start learning how to communicate like the man we just elected to the White House, and try not to be so dense in positing arguments (okay Sara?).
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» This is offensive
Posted by: CUnknown
» RE: This is offensive
Posted by: Quist
» RE: This is offensive
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» Can you offer some evidence for your claim?
Posted by: FredJones
» My experience is the opposite
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: My experience is the opposite
Posted by: Quist
» RE: ationality doesn't work here...
Posted by: Bibsisis
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jstuv on Feb 27, 2009 6:07 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
COMMUNISM: If everyone was compensated equally …and there is a grantee of employment, why would anyone work or innovate? COMMUNISM imploded.
FASCISM: If all dissenters were killed and all their possessions confiscated, how would the society continue? They would have to steal from and kill their own …which is what happened in 1944, 1945.
The TALIBAN: If Art and Entertainment were not permitted and all women subjugated; all dissenters killed, how would the society replenish itself?
They would die out eventually.
REPUBLICANISM: In order to maximize profit, labor would be so minimally compensated that workers would practically be slaves. Wealth could only be inherited as it would not be taxed. Elections would be superficial, as the outcome was already determined.
(The last country that tried that got defeated in Europe in WW II)
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» I agree with your principle.....
Posted by: FredJones
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Skeptic10 on Feb 27, 2009 6:13 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What? Nothing goes in your pocket tax free. Income is taxed at 35% and will increase to 39.6%. The social security tax is an additional 6.5% (13% for self employed). Individuals in this tax bracket will never see this money again for social security benefits as well as taxes are capped.
If you want to increase taxes on high income earners and distribute the money to the rest of society, fine. But, don't bullS%#! us, please. This lowers your overall credibility.
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» Perhaps, but
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
Comments are closed-
Posted by: warrior woman on Feb 27, 2009 7:20 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To better frame the argument, Dems must say: "this is not about Big Government, this is about Different Government. Instead of focusing our economy on war and wall street financiers, Democrats will focus government in a different direction, that of the good of the people. We will refocus tax dollars spent on war to the people in the form of health, education and jobs. We will reformulate tax tables to boost the middle class, giving families breathing room to focus on what they do best, raising their families and forming the base of this great country. We will shift the economy to focus on what it takes to raise children and protect incomes, health and safety: in that, we mean that we will invest in education, both E-12 and college/vocational; health care in reforming a system that takes money out of every American's pocket at a greater rate than any other aspect of spending; regulation so that every American need not fear the food they eat will be contaminated or pills they take will be tainted. In other words, we will mind the store and the banks, while keeping you safe at home. Further, your money will stay where it belongs, in your pockets, you will no longer have it picked by those who don't need it, you will be able to use it where you choose and for what you believe it should be spent on, your families."
How's that for a different take on Newty Gingrich's bs?
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» RE: Big government or Different government?
Posted by: rare
» RE: Big government or Different government?
Posted by: wagnerrocks@gmail.com
» RE: Big government or Different government?
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Dennis St. John on Feb 27, 2009 8:03 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the federal government printed US Notes, like Lincoln did during the Civil War, all federal debts would be paid off completely in about a year without inflation or deflation. The federal government could then make interest-free loans to the public.
Benjamin Franklin said the revolution occurred because the English Monarchy forbad the colonies from continuing to print their own money (which worked great) and that put them at the mercy of the international bankers in Europe. The Island of Guernsey off the coast of England has used printed money for 200 years, incurring no debts and therefore no interest.
Get rid of the Federal Reserve, which is neither federal nor a reserve, but rather a consortium of private banks who now make our money and loan it to the government at usury rates.
Restore states' rights and US Notes!
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» Uh huh
Posted by: EinMD
» Oh please ! Your support of Big Military is what's the problem !
Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
» RE: Uh huh
Posted by: dover23
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ClassAct on Feb 27, 2009 8:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: HMOs
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: underledge on Feb 27, 2009 8:20 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Reading the comments on this article, it appears that no one has a solution to the situation we are in. Those who think we can go back to the way it was are delusional and those thinking we can go green, ride bikes to work, etc. fall in the same group. The rich get richer and the poor, poorer.
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» RE: hello....
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: CUnknown on Feb 27, 2009 8:21 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For example, if the problem is Social Security, we can fix that by raising taxes on the rich. If the problem is Medicare, we can fix that with single-payer.
Of course the big problem she didn't even touch (no mention of the Fed and of fractional reserve banking). The debt she dismissed as a problem, which is insane.
But in general, yes I believe that America could come out of this still strong, and remain strong for many years. IF we did the right things. Who is going to do that? Bush sure as hell didn't. Clinton didn't. Who was the last President who did anything right, Reagan? Don't make me laugh. I guess, who, Carter? That's funny, but somehow I'm not laughing this time.
We're expecting this Obama guy to... do what? Give us single-payer? He's already said he won't. Balance the budget? He's already said it will still be roughly a trillion a year by the time his 1st term is up. Fix Social Security? Oh yeah.. he'll "fix" it good alright. I can't wait to see how hard he "fixes" it. Shift to alternative energy? The man talks a lot about clean coal, people, it's time to wake up on this one. End the Fed and switch to a sustainable monetary system? Maybe when pigs fly. No, I think pigs flying is probably more likely.
We could fix our problems by doing the right things, but we're not going to do the right things. That is where this article totally fails.
What we will end up with: steadily increasing deficits over time, and declining tax revenues due Baby Boomers being 'takers' on SS instead of 'givers', the Medicare insolvency issue, and also peak oil and environmental collapse harming our GDP.
That is a recipe for financial disaster.
She said something like "If you yank away SS from boomers, they might start to save for the future instead of spending freely!" Oh, they better start saving alright. Saving up food and water in their basements, for one.
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» RE: America could come out of this still strong IF we do the right things
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» Clinton
Posted by: CUnknown
Comments are closed-
Posted by: oregoncharles on Feb 27, 2009 9:44 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THEY AREN'T IN CHARGE.
Democrats are.
In fact, Conservatives are a dead letter, as well as a dead horse: their whole schtick has been discredited. They linger in the Senate, and may be able to cause some trouble there, because the Senate turns over so slowly; but they have power there only because there are conservative Democrats, and mainly because the "Democratic" leadership colludes with them.
Face it: The Democrats have the whole trifecta: House, Senate, Presidency, and by wide margins. If this government stumbles, the blame is all on the Dems.
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» I agree with you oregoncharles, but
Posted by: zipoka
» RE: Just a friendly reminder.
Posted by: Quist
» RE: Beating a Dead Horse.
Posted by: JSquercia
» Baloney. Dems inherited a...
Posted by: jvaljon1
» Baloney. Dems inherited a...
Posted by: jvaljon1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jimswanson on Feb 27, 2009 9:46 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
“The Bush League of Nations” [for FREE download of entire $25.95 book]
Let’s pray that the destructive right continues to spout these “10 Reasons” and all the other old GOP nostrums that drove America off the cliff.
This will cause more and more Americans to realize the obvious—that America’s government, like America’s military and America’s financial system, cannot be entrusted to GOP crooks, nitwits and mercenaries.
Bearing in mind that the best humor is based in truth, here’s an accounting joke that says it all:
The GOP’s balance sheet for America has two sides, with liabilities on the left, and assets on the right. The problem is that on the left, there’s nothing right, while on the right, there’s nothing left.
My progressive views are expressed in The Bush League of Nations: The Coalition of the Unwilling, the Bullied and the Bribed – the GOP’s War on Iraq and America, by James A. Swanson (2008, published by CreateSpace Publishing, 448 pages).
You can now download the entire $25.95 book for FREE at www.bushleagueofnations.com.
I ask for nothing in return, except that you consider using it as a resource to help restore and build America.
Jim Swanson, Los Altos, CA
“The Bush League of Nations” [for FREE download of entire $25.95 book]
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» The Democrat "progressives" have.....
Posted by: FredJones
» Again, check your facts
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» your smarm is giving away your frustration, 'Bearish
Posted by: FredJones
» This is an ad hominem argument
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» You are a hypocrite
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: your smarm is giving away your frustration, 'Bearish
Posted by: JSquercia
» Okay this is the third or fourth Alternet article
Posted by: zipoka
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kk33deg on Feb 27, 2009 10:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» No Mission No Money
Posted by: edgar1
» RE: No Mission No Money
Posted by: Quist
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Feb 27, 2009 12:29 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have millionaires in congress.Whom do you think they serve? The folks that have way more money than they do. If America ran like a business,they'd fold up their tents and shrink out of sight. Why?
In business if a 51% share was faultering ,the business would die,there would be a huge tax sell off and the investors would bail out like a skydiver from a plane.
In America 52% of us are faultering under the
oppression of underemployment. That means we don't earn enough money to meet basic expenses.
Forget about going to a cheap movie house or God forbid,go see a local band at a bar, there's just no money for it. There's barely enough to pay the bills and buy food. But as a 'major shareholder' in America,there's no bailout for us. They don't think we're worth it. They call us lazy and hopelessly over spending beyond our means. WAKE UP DICKHOLES!!!
It's the mid to upper middleclass that lives beyond their means,that think their life won't be complete without a $300 hairstyle or a Lexus or an extremely large house...for two people.
Yet those are the very people that will see the greatest help. They will get the biggest tax write-offs. The biggest 'stimulus' checks.
While the 52% that earn under 35,000 a year get the least. We're not being qualified for $400,000 home loans. We get that loan laughed in our faces. We're not the ones who fucked up our economy. IT WAS THE RICH!!! The bankers,the stock brokers,the insurance giants
that get bailed out and the first 700 billion was sent out to people that flatout told DC 'We ain't paying it back.' But they got it anyway.
I think it's time we let the greedy asspins
fall on their faces,lose everything they stole out of the mouths of the working poor.
They bitch that the market is as low as it was in 1997, Hey wasn't the the time of the Clinton Prosperity? If you listened to Hillary it was. So why is that bad now? because the greed machine got the market up to $14,000 a share for bluechip stocks. So what they are really saying is that there was no prosperity in the Clinton years...unless you were already rich. Just like now.
Washington and the rest of you neo-con buttlickers had better get it right and start thinking about taking care of the people you shit all over to get to your fancy gated communities...before they become your prisons.
52% are mad as hell. 52% skip meals,not because we want to fit into a size zero but because we CAN'T AFFORD THE FOOD.
Like the Declaration says,and I'm paraphrasing
'When a governance fails to support the people it is the right of the people to abolish said governance' People,it's getting to be that time.
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» We all have a stake in Money that buys value.
Posted by: edgar1
» Your sense of entitlement........
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: Your sense of entitlement........
Posted by: jeffrey7
» Jeffrey7
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: Jeffrey7
Posted by: jeffrey7
» Jeffrey7 is a "mensch"
Posted by: FredJones
Comments are closed-
Posted by: peterjkraus on Feb 27, 2009 12:54 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Jesus, come on down and tell this boob......
Posted by: jeffrey7
Comments are closed-
Posted by: peterjkraus on Feb 27, 2009 12:56 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: AP1 on Feb 27, 2009 1:13 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Blame the other party...that's politics in the U.S.
Posted by: Quist
Comments are closed-
Posted by: tony_opmoc on Feb 27, 2009 1:27 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You may react in a very strange way
And put up a massive poster covering the entire front of your house that you have made yourself
And knock on our door
And completely fail to get welcomed into our home - because my wife answered the door
If I'd got their first...
But she was wonderful to him and invited him to the pub tomorrow (there's a great band on and its FREE to get in - and we would certainly buy him an Orange Juice - or even a Pint of Beer - he could just drink Pints of Water - served Free - without any problem whatsoever)
She has a heart of gold
But was doing the ironing
And was a bit phased by our 45 year old neighbour turning up on our doorstep dressed like David Bowie as if it was 1971
Aladdin Sane
Not a problem if you get your timing right
Tony
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» RE: Society Is Falling Apart / Coming Together
Posted by: tony_opmoc
» RE: Society Is Falling Apart / Coming Together
Posted by: tony_opmoc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: zola77 on Feb 27, 2009 1:38 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
I DONT REMEMBER ANY PAST LEADERS OF THE U.S SAYING "GET THE F*** OUT OF HERE YOU WEAK PIECE OF S***".
Actually Reagan was the one who started saying crap like that - unfortunately he did not embody the vision of the founders - he was just an opportunist a-hole.
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» oops, posted in wrong place
Posted by: zola77
» Zola77
Posted by: FredJones
Comments are closed-
Posted by: FredJones on Feb 27, 2009 3:22 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't care what labels you use the reality is this.
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» RE: Can we say, "strawman"?
Posted by: Quist
» Can we say, "smarmy"?
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: The last time I checked I was still an independent.
Posted by: Quist
» How nice for you.
Posted by: FredJones
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Ghoulman on Feb 27, 2009 3:56 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Consider how, even in this article, it's pointed out how even Reagan and Bush Sr. have, during their Administrations, raised taxes yet they publicly stated they stood for the opposite. Obama pulled a great Clinton by not mentioning any taxes in his new budget at all. Great speech, as always. Haha!
Its just PR man.
The Republicans (Conservatives) and Democrats (Liberals) are just that... symbols of a certain kind of governance but completely the same in practice. Why? Because it's the elite who own and thus run this place. What is actually helpful info for The People is not in their interests.
Arguing any political slant in American media is doomed to being one side or the other in spite of what facts might lead to actual understanding of what is needed to help the world wide economy from a coming decade long Depression. Cause it's informed people, you and me, that will ultimately do that.
The media is just to sell you things, make you a consumer. Everything else is 'fill' (that's the actual media term for it, btw). So we get the back and forth on TV that passes for information and news.
Otherwise we get the Treasury Secretary saying certain economists 'just don't understand Washington' to Republican crazies declaring a civil war will fall on us all due to Obama.
Obama's 'spending' or 'pork' criticism is exactly what Republicans say about ANY spending THEY didn't do. Democrats just didn't bother criticizing Bush.
Let me say up front, I do agree with this article that at this time much of what the Republicans are saying (typically) will be DISASTROUS for the future and that Obama' spending is the right thing to do (if not enough)... but wrapping that argument into Left vs. Right is not what I'd call 'progressive'.
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Posted by: maxsmart on Feb 27, 2009 4:38 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You know kind of like everyone is worth being cared for as a human being who is suffering. Kind of like the Hippocratic oath was supposed to be. Rather than caring for a profit center or a liability as the case may be!!!
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» Liberals love to save the poor -- WITH OTHER PEOPLE's labor and money
Posted by: EagleX
» RE: Got proof???
Posted by: Quist
» YOU stand corrected!
Posted by: EagleX
» I AGREE. Let's start with Mish Obama.
Posted by: FredJones
» Compared to your idiot-in-chief George W?
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» 'Bearish there is help for you
Posted by: FredJones
» Again, more ad hominem right wing crap
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» You are a hypocrite.
Posted by: FredJones
Comments are closed-
Posted by: EagleX on Feb 27, 2009 4:53 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Note that the emergence of the Marxist union of Obama and a radical liberal Congress has so dramatically shocked and stunned the markets (over 50% collapse since it became apparent that Obama was going to be elected in October 2008) that a minor recession has morphed into a possible “great depression”
Note that the sum of ALL yearly budget deficits throughout the entire Bush administration will not equal any of the upcoming Obama Marxist deficits. Indeed, the Marxist Congress will destroy America's economic well being for years to come.
Note that it is acknowledge by all but a few fringe on Alternet that “government that governs least, governs best”-- Jefferson. Yet, the Left made a cottage industry of criticizing the Bush administration for running up deficits in the billions, while Obama, Pelosi, et al are fawned over for running up deficits in the TRILLIONS.
If the Left didnt have double standards, they wouldn't have any standards.
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» you are aware that the wars weren't in the budget, right?
Posted by: hurricane hugo
» RE: you are aware that the wars weren't in the budget, right?
Posted by: EagleX
» since you were unable to grasp even the simplest of points,
Posted by: hurricane hugo
» RE: This so-called correction along with the others stinks of logical fallacies!
Posted by: EagleX
» EagleX
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: Fred do you even know what a logical fallacy is because...
Posted by: Quist
» Don't be a thug
Posted by: FredJones
» RE : Debating with extreme ideologues is a waste of time!
Posted by: Quist
» Quist....
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: Fred...you make me laugh.
Posted by: Quist
Comments are closed-
Posted by: EagleX on Feb 27, 2009 5:03 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The deficits would have been considerably less had the most destructive MAN-MADE (9/11) and NATURAL (katrina) disasters to the US homeland in history not occurred on Bush's watch.
In addition, none, but fringe, can argue that Bush correctly cut taxes to eliminate the recession that he inherited from clinton.
Note that 9/11 may not have occurred had clinton killed bin laden when he had the chance to do so numerous times and had clinton not gutted the intel community.
Note that Reagan's increase in the deficit throughout his entire two terms is less than what the Marxist's in Congress will do in just one year (pick any year between 2009 and 2019)
In addition, while the Left will run-up deficits that will destroy our meritocracy and created generational moral hazard for decades, Reagan's increased spending led to the longest sustained growth in history and victory in the Cold War against a despotism that had the capability to kill every American 10 times over.
Note that Sara hypocritically rails against Reagan for running up deficits in the billions while Obama and his merry band of botoxed and hairplugged drunken sailors will run-up deficits in the trillions.
If the Left didn't have double standards, they wouldn't have any standards.
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» If you really believe in a meritocracy,
Posted by: hurricane hugo
» YOU stand corrected!
Posted by: EagleX
» HEY!
Posted by: FredJones
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Posted by: tony_opmoc on Feb 27, 2009 5:09 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: EagleX on Feb 27, 2009 5:15 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Her delusion is why democrats must never be allowed anywhere near capitol hill after they are voted out en masse in 2012.
The following is from the Social Security Administration verbatim:
""In 2017 we will begin paying more in benefits than we collect in taxes. Without changes by 2041 the Social Security Trust Fund will be exhausted.""
Everyone one of you automatons who voted democrat must understand that your retirement benefits will be reduced and degraded.
In addition, every young person must understand that these smiling Leftist are saddling you with tremendous debt that will be paid by YOU in blood, sweat, and toil.
For example, you will have significantly less for yourselves and your future families then previous generations thanks to irresponsible governance by the few (moderate republicans and all democrats)
Don't blame anyone but yourself when you "reap the whirlwind" in the next 20 years.
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» RE: Correction #3 -- Sara and the Left's irresponsible disregard for the entitlement bomb!
Posted by: yellow
Comments are closed-
Posted by: EagleX on Feb 27, 2009 5:30 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now they are downplaying the debt forced down our throats that is an order of magnitude greater than anything even the most rabid spending republicans could imagine.
If the left didnt have double standards, they wouldnt have any standards.
for all those young people out there with the obama stickers on your car's bumper, READ THIS SUCKERS!
In summary, the young idiots who are fawning over Obama and his relentless drive to destroy meritocracy over marxism are going to have a standard of living similar to that of the idiots who fawned over peron in argentina in the 70's when he destroyed the most prosperous nation in latin america.
this is for you folks, I won't have to live in the mess created by Obama and CO. -- I will be dead or near death.
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Posted by: EagleX on Feb 27, 2009 5:40 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Note that it probably won't matter when/if social security collapses since medicade and medicare and "Obama bane" will have broken the nation before that occurs
However, if by some miracle, we can resort common sense and responsibility in governance by throwing out both democrats and republicans then social security will be the knife turning in our gut that will make America a permanent socialist basket case.
For example, Sara's "solution" is an ever expanding application of job killing, growth killing, and innovation killing taxation to pay for the increasing encroachment of social security expenditures.
Why should Sara be alarmed by the destructive effects of increased taxation on future generations when she supports the present unprecedented rape of American society by the Marxists in the White HOuse and COngress.
alas, I am going to take a break. Debunking Liberal hypocrisy is tiring.
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Posted by: tony_opmoc on Feb 27, 2009 5:42 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At least he makes far more sense than anyone else who knows the slightest bit about economics in America
If you want me to give you a list of people who even have the slightest clue about analysing the current financial problem then I will
But it is Friday night
So instead of worrying about it
Watch
Jimi Hendrix - Voodoo Chile Atlanta '69 '70
Tony
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» RE: AGREE!!!
Posted by: Quist
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Posted by: Bibsisis on Feb 27, 2009 7:49 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In a word, WAR, to put it very simply, is why our economy has tanked, why millions have lost their jobs and homes.
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» You have identified the "casual factor" now for a laugh Bibsisis please explain the ...
Posted by: EagleX
» RE: I let the Nobel-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz explain.
Posted by: Quist
Comments are closed-
Posted by: reg373 on Feb 27, 2009 8:44 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» reg373, a question
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: Answer : DEBT!
Posted by: Quist
» OMG am I about to agree with Quist?
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: See, no ideology needed...just common sense.
Posted by: Quist
» RE: Trickle Down I and II
Posted by: EagleX
» RE: Trickle Down I and II
Posted by: Quist
Comments are closed-
Posted by: FredJones on Feb 28, 2009 7:57 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» Thanks for the post Fred!
Posted by: EagleX
» RE: Thanks for the post Fred!
Posted by: FredJones
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Posted by: isafakir on Feb 28, 2009 8:23 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
if their ideas HADN'T LED us
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» RE: didnt
Posted by: isafakir
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Posted by: AP1 on Feb 28, 2009 10:40 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"They think it's morally wrong for government to ever invest or hold capital -- despite the long trail of successes that have enriched us all and transformed the face of the nation."
I guess she thinks captial comes from taxes and worse, INFLATION. Printing money doesn't create capital. Savings creates capital. Another thing she does is mix two separate problems together, although she's not the only one guilty of this; The economic problems our nation is facing do not wholely stem from the Federal Budget Deficit. Our problem is that the banking system collapsed. I'm not trying to down play the severity of the Federal Buget problem, but there is a difference. The government (Democrats by the way) pushed the banks to lend to people who would not have received loans through Clinton's modification of the Communitty Reinvestment Act. This is turn caused the banking community to securitize high risk loans for profit. As a result our economy was funded by junks bonds to foreign investors hoping to get a higher yeild than our treasury bonds. This along with the irresponsible American Consumer and other factors; credit default swaps; artifically low interest rates; and greed are the things that got us into this mess. It was both Democrat and Republican, although I think mostly Democrat decisions that got us here. I think the real danger with this article is that she seems to be playing into peoples ignorance of the situation. It's all to easy to just point the finger at Republicans and say they are to blame. Even easier when people don't even have an understanding of basic economics, like what capital is and where it comes from.
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Posted by: CxO on Feb 28, 2009 7:22 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I must add, that I was dragged along kicking and screeming all the way to the bank. It is fun to kick conservatives, but we were not complaining while we had folding money in our pockets. Now that we are all poor, it's nice to have an uncle with deep pockets.
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Posted by: DrBrian on Mar 1, 2009 12:24 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Rediculous
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: ediculous
Posted by: iolanthe
» Jackass yourself. Where did I use either word?
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: I guess iolanthe forgot to add "leftist class" to the list?!?
Posted by: Quist
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Posted by: snowdancer76 on Mar 1, 2009 12:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: snowdancer76 on Mar 1, 2009 12:46 AM
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Posted by: DrBrian on Mar 1, 2009 2:39 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The reason we don't have ventilators is that our USAID funds were cut off several years back under the Mexico City Policy because one of our satellite hospitals does abortions to keep poor women out of the hands of village quacks and to keep them from having babies who come into the world to starve to death.
The baby's parents were lovely people, extremely poor, hard working, and grateful for our efforts. It breaks my heart to see them weeping their eyes out over their child, sacrificed on the altar of conservative self-righteousness.
People who do things like this, and who gleefully rain down bombs on innocent children in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Palestine, are not pro-life.
So for all of you conservative posters who wonder why I dislike your movement and its ideologies, I invite you to come over and tell the parents of these disposable children why you support the Mexico City Policy and why you're angry that Obama rescinded it.
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» Pro-people liberals, an oxymoron
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: Pro-people liberals, an oxymoron
Posted by: iolanthe
» what an ***hole
Posted by: FredJones
» Fred, vicious lies are not discourse.
Posted by: DrBrian
» DrBrian call me whatever name you want
Posted by: FredJones
» Civility and Honest Dialogue
Posted by: DrBrian
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Posted by: mikacct on Mar 1, 2009 8:53 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: reelman on Mar 1, 2009 12:31 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
PREACHING TO THE DEAF-MUTE
3.1.09…At the recent World Economic Forum, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin warned of our government’s flirtations with socialism, that is, a state-run economy.
Trying not to “gloat,” Putin told the U.S. that “Excessive intervention in economic activity and blind faith in the state’s omnipotence” is a “mistake.” He reminded listeners that state control of the old Soviet economy made the nation “totally uncompetitive.”
CRAWFISH NOTE: The day when Russia actually warns us how bad socialism was…wow…bummer.
Russia has taught Obama nothing.
Cuba has taught Obama nothing.
Obama is a trained secular socialist surrounded by same. He is a true believer in secular socialism. Heck, Jimmah Carter has taught Obama (and Reid-Pelosi) nothing.
Stupid is…as stupid does…but its us that have to suffer for this arrogant ignorance of economic reality. Suckers.
http://conservablogs.com/theconservativecrawfish
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» RE: Some more flawed reasoning.
Posted by: Quist
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Posted by: reelman on Mar 3, 2009 5:29 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No, they are not a surprise to anyone who cared a wit all of last year to research these three radical socialists. They really believe we can have a “prosperous Cuba”, that we can do better IF the gov-meant extends its reach 10 or 20 fold (and its borrowed spending).
The slogans they use like “shared sacrifice” and “economic justice” are just code for tight socialism run by hundreds of thousands of new gov-meant employees (unionized and faithful voters of course).
They simply do not trust the voters with a real tax cut because only gov-meant can spend wisely (your money). All the jive, smoke and mirrors talk is simply what they do to get more secular socialism.
They have learned nothing from Carter or Castro because they are not reality-based…they are the secular socialist borg…the true believers who will makes excuses and blameshift for years if need be. It matters not that your IRA is down 30% next Labor Day or Christmas. True believers will find strawmen even if the DOW sinks to 4,000. Its always somebody else’s fault…never the principles of secular socialism.
Thus 2009 will only be the first year of the Obama MISERY INDEX. Carter never gave up and neither will Obama.
True believers go down with the ship (or economy in this case). The awful part is YOU are chained to the deck.
http://conservablogs.com/theconservativecrawfish/
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» RE: Get a clue!
Posted by: Quist
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Posted by: LillianB on Mar 7, 2009 11:18 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Raymond Emerson on Mar 8, 2009 11:08 PM
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Posted by: FreeAmerica on Feb 27, 2009 12:27 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No one supporting that should talk about fiscal responsibility.
Social security should be positively funded, not a ponzai scheme. We should lift caps on contributions, and do a needs test on recipients, and positively fund it. Medicine should be non-profit, but non-government too.
The 65 tril number is estimated future govt obligations, and is scary but probably valid. By then it will be two weeks pay for a CEO. BFD.
When you are in debt, stop spending more than you take in. That is fiscal responsibility.. Anything else is lip service and excuses.
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» RE: The past is no excuse for bad behavior
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: The past is no excuse for bad behavior
Posted by: ZenQuixote
» RE: The past is no excuse for bad behavior
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: The past is pointy head
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» A Malkin fan?
Posted by: HeroesAll
» Deficit spending is the "responsible" thing to do now?
Posted by: CUnknown
» Yes!
Posted by: brunowe
» You keep telling yourself that
Posted by: CUnknown
» Different scenarios
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Different scenarios
Posted by: CUnknown
» It isn't inconsistent
Posted by: brunowe
» Yes, he did
Posted by: CUnknown
» RE: You keep telling yourself that
Posted by: aichbe
» RE: A Malkin fan?
Posted by: 2thepoint
» It's irresponsible to drive the economy into a ditch then complain about the size of the towtruck!!
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Medicine should be non-profit
Posted by: kettleblack
» RE: Medicine should be non-profit
Posted by: 2thepoint
» Bullshit.
Posted by: EinMD
» No means test for Social Security
Posted by: dctim
» RE: No means test for Social Security
Posted by: JSquercia
» Tell you what, FA
Posted by: hurricane hugo
» RE: The past is no excuse for doing nothing.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: The past is no excuse for bad behavior
Posted by: kennybent
» RE: The past is no excuse for bad behavior
Posted by: Morell
» It ISN'T???
Posted by: jvaljon1
» HellOoooo.....Social Security IS "positively funded"!
Posted by: jvaljon1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: freelyb on Feb 27, 2009 12:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The initial bailout of the financial elites was haphazard and foolish, agreed to by members of both congressional parties during an election cycle. It did, however, happen on Republican watch and was timed for exactly that purpose. It was a devious plan implemented in a devious way, and Dems did not have what it took to slow it down or stop it.
The stimulus package, meanwhile, is a different story. It's an evil made necessary by imminent economic and environmental meltdown. We all need to take responsibility, but particularly those who had the biggest hand in making such huge messes over time. Republicans, that would be you guys. Period.
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» Fiscal Facts
Posted by: slydad
» RE: Fiscal Facts
Posted by: Waff2010
» RE: Fiscal Facts
Posted by: Bibsisis
» RE: Fiscal Facts
Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: Fiscal Facts
Posted by: Bibsisis
» RE: Fiscal Facts
Posted by: jvaljon1
» The bailout is the perpetuation of the ideologies that got us into this mess.
Posted by: rafaeltoral
» RE: The bailout is the perpetuation of the ideologies that got us into this mess.
Posted by: Bibsisis
» RE: The bailout is the perpetuation of the ideologies that got us into this mess.
Posted by: slydad
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mmckinl on Feb 27, 2009 1:11 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the mean time these tax cuts for the rich have created a gaping federal deficit and trillions of dollars of hot money that helped inspire the toxic debt instruments and create the housing crisis while causing the greatest wealth gap in our history.
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» Correction:
Posted by: slydad
» RE: Correction:
Posted by: hms2004
» Well it worked for JFK.....
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: Well it worked for JFK.....
Posted by: mmckinl
» This is total BS!!
Posted by: yellow
» Tax Cuts for the Rich Create Jobs
Posted by: edgar1
» Stupidity from right-wing know-nothings
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» And another thing
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» ReallyBearish
Posted by: FredJones
» No, you need to check your facts
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» NOW I see the problem
Posted by: FredJones
» The actual Wiki quote is
Posted by: slydad
» RE: The actual Wiki quote is
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» I'm sorry if this will sound snarky
Posted by: FredJones
» And arrogant
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» more ad hominem arguments?
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: I'm sorry if this will sound snarky
Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: The actual Wiki quote is
Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: NOW I see the problem
Posted by: JSquercia
» JSquercia
Posted by: FredJones
» No they didn't.
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Tax Cuts for the Rich Create Jobs
Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: Disasters Create Jobs
Posted by: kettleblack
» Wilson and Roosevelt agree with you
Posted by: FredJones
» Correct
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: The Biggest Lie: Tax Cuts for the Rich Create Jobs
Posted by: Bibsisis
» RE: The Biggest Lie: Tax Cuts for the Rich Create Jobs
Posted by: mmckinl
» RE: The Biggest Lie: Tax Cuts for the Rich Create Jobs
Posted by: JSquercia
Comments are closed-
Posted by: slydad on Feb 27, 2009 1:11 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sure, social security and medicare need to be looked at, but what is on conservative minds for the right here and now is the huge power grab that is this so called stimulus plan. This plan is just throwing money at every liberal idea that is out there including national health care. The plan ignores the real culprit behind the current recession which is government meddling in the free market. Instead they are meddling even more and attempting to redistribute wealth on a scale never before seen.
Another reason Sara us out of touch (actually, she's not really out of touch, she's just trying to deflect the real conversation so she doesn't have to argue the real issue.) is because she is equating Republicans and Conservatives. Sure, the Republicans are supposed to be the Conservative party but that's not actually the case. They may be more conservative than the Democrats, but based on what I've observed over the last eight years, I would have to say that the conservatives are certainly not running things. If they were, we wouldn't have lost the last two elections.
A lot of her claims about the Republicans have at least some validity, but don't think that conservatives are in that same tank.
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» A bold and fanciful statement
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: A bold and fanciful statement
Posted by: john mont
» RE: A bold and fanciful statement
Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: A bold and fanciful statement
Posted by: ConnecttheDots
» RE: A bold and fanciful statement
Posted by: Cybershaman
» slydad rethug troll alert!
Posted by: dover23
» RE: Hey Dad there is no freemarket!
Posted by: marid
» put down the crackpipe, dude
Posted by: hurricane hugo
» RE: Out of touch
Posted by: wild colonial boy
» RE: Again, free market capitalism does not exist!
Posted by: Quist
» Right . . .
Posted by: slydad
» RIGHT, Quist....and neither does true freedom
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: Another Straw Man or Red Herring reply.
Posted by: Quist
» How often must educated people tell dogmatic morons that capitalism is what it is and not some ideal
Posted by: yellow
» It must be SOOOOO hard for you.....
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: Out of touch
Posted by: Bibsisis
» what a twit
Posted by: FredJones
Comments are closed-
Posted by: DrBrian on Feb 27, 2009 1:26 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some people are just cognitively and emotionally constituted to resist innovation, cling to the past, grovel before authority and lack concern for the wellbeing of others. Nature and nurture conspire to make them this way, and no amount of reason can dissuade them.
The good news is that the hardcore conservatives are a minority, and the softcore ones have finally caught on that they've been screwing themselves, and almost everyone else, by supporting the GOP. Even media brainwashing was unable to outweigh experiential learning.
The bad news is that there are still areas of the country, mostly in the south, where hardcore conservatives still constitute the majority.
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» I beg your pardon . . .
Posted by: slydad
» Prove or retract
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Prove or retract
Posted by: john mont
» RE: Prove or retract
Posted by: nutsack
» RE: Prove or retract
Posted by: iolanthe
» RE: Prove or retract
Posted by: Kathy-B
» RE: Prove or retract
Posted by: hms2004
» It's Not Jesus' Fault
Posted by: iolanthe
» RE: Prove or retract
Posted by: iolanthe
» Honestly now . . .
Posted by: slydad
» You are made of fail.
Posted by: ENDIF
» RE: I beg your pardon . . .
Posted by: john mont
» You're a moron
Posted by: EinMD
» DUH check Saturday's Alternet headlines
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: I beg your pardon . . .
Posted by: iolanthe
» RE: encourage sexual promiscuity
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: I beg your pardon . . .
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: I see you have your Rush Limbaugh quotes
Posted by: marid
» RE: Good News & Bad
Posted by: hms2004
» RE: Good News & Bad
Posted by: nutsack
» RE: Good News & Bad
Posted by: iolanthe
» What the hell does that even mean?
Posted by: brock_samson
» DrBrian
Posted by: FredJones
» Dear Fred,
Posted by: DrBrian
» DrBrian......
Posted by: FredJones
» Fred, history is not on your side.
Posted by: DrBrian
» DrBrian, Hitler said the same thing to the Reichstag in 1933
Posted by: FredJones
» Like the Way Limbaugh et al use "Liberal"??
Posted by: iolanthe
» iolanthe
Posted by: FredJones
» Dear Fred
Posted by: DrBrian
» DrBrian
Posted by: FredJones
» They are not conservatives
Posted by: melloe2
» BINGO
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: BINGO
Posted by: JSquercia
» JSquercia
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: JSquercia
Posted by: JSquercia
» How are they different, JSquercia?
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: Good News & Bad
Posted by: EagleX
» RE: Good News & Bad
Posted by: ploneglenn
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Perry Logan on Feb 27, 2009 2:48 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's fun to watch the Repubs dig themselves in deeper, as they continue to reiterate their discredited ideas. It's as if they had no memory of recent events. It makes them look a little crazy to normal people, which is excellent.
Thoughts on the Bush non-legacy.
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Posted by: monkeyrocketsurgeon on Feb 27, 2009 2:59 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Great Article
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rafaeltoral on Feb 27, 2009 3:16 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You cant expect to reduce the deficit when every imaginary dollar printed or created through fractional reserve banking is owed interest on it the second it is created by the FED.
This interest can only be repaid through the creation of more money. Its a never ending debt cycle.
This is why we work so much more and recieve so much less. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure this stuff out people.
All of that 10 trillion or so for the bailouts was created from nothing. This is very good for the FED since this means more interest and ultimatly more money to be printed.
You see the FED is a privatly owned bank that is not controlled in any way by the Federal Government. This privatly owned bank is owned by other small privatly owned banks. The people and families that own these banks are the real rulers of the world.
Since the Fed controls the money supply they control the value of said money. They manipulate the value to rob us of all that has real value in the world.
Congress needs to do as the constitution states and create its own interest free money. What gives this money real value is the ability to pay your taxes with it. There is no need to pay interest on something that was created from nothing. Its fucking stupid.
So I guess you can keep wasting your time on ideas that will never work, or you can choose to address the real problems.
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» RE: the FED is a privatly owned bank that is not controlled in any way by the Federal Government
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» The debt can never be paid off under our current system
Posted by: CUnknown
» Technically true, but practically false
Posted by: FredJones
» Uniting issue
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: Uniting issue
Posted by: CUnknown
» Jackson was one of the few pres to go up against the central bank and live.
Posted by: rafaeltoral
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Ottomatic on Feb 27, 2009 4:12 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hell, I don't know!
Flush it down the Toilet!
Let's build a Embassy in Iraq,
Build another arms base overseas.
Bring America to it's knees!
FLUSH! FLUSH! FLUSH!
Flush your money down the toilet!
Where did all the money go?
Hell, I don't know!
Let's give a TAX brake
To the Rich!
While you get stuck
Digging a ditch!
FLUSH it all down the Toilet.
Away she goes!
WHERE SHE STOPS?
NOBODY KNOWS!
Excerpt from the song FLUSH! by
OTTO & The HEMORRHOIDS!
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» RE: FLUSH! FLUSH! FLUSH it down the TOILET!
Posted by: Bibsisis
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pinnacle on Feb 27, 2009 4:19 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most Republicans aren't overly conservative. They do, however, believe they are more capable of making decisions regarding the money they "earn" than relying on government to decide for them. They also believe the American system allows everyone the opportunity to "work" to achieve a better life and perhaps even "wealth". The people who "bitch" about the USA aren't the immigrants who move here ---- they are people who were born here and feel "entitled" to sit on their asses while asking others to support them!
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» RE: It Ain't Just Government Spending That Got Us Into Trouble!
Posted by: rafaeltoral
» RE: It Ain't Just Government Spending That Got Us Into Trouble!
Posted by: iolanthe
» RE: It Ain't Just Government Spending That Got Us Into Trouble!
Posted by: SteveO
» RE: It Ain't Just Government Spending That Got Us Into Trouble!
Posted by: hms2004
» RE: Agree and pinnacle is full of it.
Posted by: Quist
» RE: a single piece of data
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: a single piece of data
Posted by: iolanthe
» Agreed
Posted by: iolanthe
» To-mae-toe, To-mah-toe
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: Embrace Pantheism?!?
Posted by: Quist
» LMAO ----- sorry!
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: It Ain't Just Government Spending Yes it is ! You got Bushed !
Posted by: That_SOB
Comments are closed-
Posted by: edgar1 on Feb 27, 2009 12:18 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
States and private groups do an outstanding job of helping genuinely ill people who lack health insurance or their own resources. Even with Obama, we remain a capitalist nation with fifty sovereign states and a federal govt with clearly delineated powers beyond which the feds should not and in many cases cannot go. If that bothers you, lobby Bernie Sanders for a new constitution. If we have the great depression I think we'll have, we probably will end up with another constitution anyway, but it may not be to your liking. Those feeble may be deemed "expendable". Or maybe the "competent" will be deemed expendable. Who knows?
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» really? i didnt realise that! Thanks for enlightening me
Posted by: zola77
» Read the Constitution, Enjoy Your Trip To NY, and Listen
Posted by: edgar1
» RE: ead the Constitution, Enjoy Your Trip To NY, and Listen
Posted by: illumineer
Comments are closed-
Posted by: FredJones on Feb 27, 2009 3:48 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Eliminate the middleman, so to speak.
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» RE: ...and how would you assume to do this?
Posted by: Quist
» The fact that you haven't seen it doesn't mean it's not happening. :)
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: The fact that you haven't seen it doesn't mean it's not happening. :)
Posted by: snowdancer76
» Snowdancer
Posted by: FredJones
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Feb 27, 2009 4:51 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And another way would be to eliminate the cap on income that is taxed and to make the tax progressive.
Raising the retirement age is something that will take a change in our corporate culture. There is a problem with the idea that goes deeper than simply changing the Social Security law.
One part of the problem is that lifetime employment is a thing of the past and employers now feel free to have lay-offs whenever they feel it useful, sometimes just to get a boost quarterly profits and consequently a bigger bonus.
The other problem is good jobs are generally unavailable older people seeking work. Employers don't like older workers either out of prejudice or possibly out of concern for increased health insurance costs.
In combination, these two facts of life mean that there is already a serious unemployment problem for people over 50. It is nearly impossible to find full-time work with benefits for a person over 55 and the problem becomes even more severe with each additional year of age.
If the solution to any problem is to increase the age of retirement it will be necessary to do something about the unemployment problem for those below that retirement age.
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» Good points
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Since Bush has been in power the mortality rate has increased.
Posted by: Quist
» RE: Since Bush has been in power the mortality rate has increased.
Posted by: JSquercia
» Evidence please
Posted by: FredJones
» Raising the Retirement Age
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield on Feb 27, 2009 5:27 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» thank you for pointing out what most people seem to miss.
Posted by: rafaeltoral
» I voted for Nader thrice and saw this mess coming a long time ago and tried to warn others.
Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
» RE: Lesser of two evils???
Posted by: Quist
» Picking between the lesser of two evils is like telling me to marry any "Tom, Dick, and Harry" !
Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
» RE: Relax Jennifer.
Posted by: Quist
» Arrgh, what you said reminded me of my stupid date on Valentine's Day who wanted me to be a
Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
» RE: Relax Jennifer.
Posted by: Quist
» RE: Lesser of two evils???
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» It is never rational
Posted by: CUnknown
» zomg! Nader n Paulz!
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: zomg! Nader n Paulz!
Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
» RE: well if both parties were run by the old white men
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» "If the nation wanted Nader in office he'd be there by now."
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» RE: I agree!
Posted by: Quist
» RE: WTF!
Posted by: Quist
» Quist what the hell are YOU whining about?
Posted by: zipoka
» RE: Make false assumptions much zipoka?!?
Posted by: Quist
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Purple Girl on Feb 27, 2009 5:30 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Then lets review the 'Star Wars' and toilet Seat binge spending. The Union Busting, the S&L scandal, the Coke induced euphoric spending through conspicuous spending by the 'Miami Vice ' wannabe's.Which lead US right into Pres 'Read my Lips' who further the illusion and the Debt.
Time to Switch uniform shirts- In comes NAFTA, the Repug Congress, The Modernization Act..and everything that further laid the Ground work for the New King George (How Ironic).
Now I could have actually lead this back to Nixon, where it really began. But at least we Caught that SOB- something his Proteges have very hard to assure would not happen again.And who are now 'All the Presidents Men' in hindsight- Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz.Granted they are not the only players in the Organized Crime Syndicate- but some have one foot in the bucket now, or are pushing up Black daisies, and others are mere foot soldiers. Bringing these three 'Greatest American Traitors' to justice will assure those affiliated will go down in history as Co conspirators, thus Shaming their Family names, or ending their careers once & for all (Rove).
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» Keep going back!
Posted by: SteveO
» RE: pushing up Black daisies
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Comments are closed-
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jdub on Feb 27, 2009 5:51 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Republicans don't argue rationally. They don't deal well with reality and facts. They aren't going to take any responsibility for their past actions or those of the Bush administration. They represent the upper economic classes and have at least since the 1920s.
Because most Americans are uneducated and ignorant of history and current affairs, Republicans have been able to sucker people whose interests they don't really represent into supporting them. ... All those "Joe the Plumbers" out there.
So, Dems, start learning how to communicate like the man we just elected to the White House, and try not to be so dense in positing arguments (okay Sara?).
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» This is offensive
Posted by: CUnknown
» RE: This is offensive
Posted by: Quist
» RE: This is offensive
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» Can you offer some evidence for your claim?
Posted by: FredJones
» My experience is the opposite
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: My experience is the opposite
Posted by: Quist
» RE: ationality doesn't work here...
Posted by: Bibsisis
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jstuv on Feb 27, 2009 6:07 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
COMMUNISM: If everyone was compensated equally …and there is a grantee of employment, why would anyone work or innovate? COMMUNISM imploded.
FASCISM: If all dissenters were killed and all their possessions confiscated, how would the society continue? They would have to steal from and kill their own …which is what happened in 1944, 1945.
The TALIBAN: If Art and Entertainment were not permitted and all women subjugated; all dissenters killed, how would the society replenish itself?
They would die out eventually.
REPUBLICANISM: In order to maximize profit, labor would be so minimally compensated that workers would practically be slaves. Wealth could only be inherited as it would not be taxed. Elections would be superficial, as the outcome was already determined.
(The last country that tried that got defeated in Europe in WW II)
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» I agree with your principle.....
Posted by: FredJones
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Skeptic10 on Feb 27, 2009 6:13 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What? Nothing goes in your pocket tax free. Income is taxed at 35% and will increase to 39.6%. The social security tax is an additional 6.5% (13% for self employed). Individuals in this tax bracket will never see this money again for social security benefits as well as taxes are capped.
If you want to increase taxes on high income earners and distribute the money to the rest of society, fine. But, don't bullS%#! us, please. This lowers your overall credibility.
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» Perhaps, but
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
Comments are closed-
Posted by: warrior woman on Feb 27, 2009 7:20 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To better frame the argument, Dems must say: "this is not about Big Government, this is about Different Government. Instead of focusing our economy on war and wall street financiers, Democrats will focus government in a different direction, that of the good of the people. We will refocus tax dollars spent on war to the people in the form of health, education and jobs. We will reformulate tax tables to boost the middle class, giving families breathing room to focus on what they do best, raising their families and forming the base of this great country. We will shift the economy to focus on what it takes to raise children and protect incomes, health and safety: in that, we mean that we will invest in education, both E-12 and college/vocational; health care in reforming a system that takes money out of every American's pocket at a greater rate than any other aspect of spending; regulation so that every American need not fear the food they eat will be contaminated or pills they take will be tainted. In other words, we will mind the store and the banks, while keeping you safe at home. Further, your money will stay where it belongs, in your pockets, you will no longer have it picked by those who don't need it, you will be able to use it where you choose and for what you believe it should be spent on, your families."
How's that for a different take on Newty Gingrich's bs?
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» RE: Big government or Different government?
Posted by: rare
» RE: Big government or Different government?
Posted by: wagnerrocks@gmail.com
» RE: Big government or Different government?
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Dennis St. John on Feb 27, 2009 8:03 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the federal government printed US Notes, like Lincoln did during the Civil War, all federal debts would be paid off completely in about a year without inflation or deflation. The federal government could then make interest-free loans to the public.
Benjamin Franklin said the revolution occurred because the English Monarchy forbad the colonies from continuing to print their own money (which worked great) and that put them at the mercy of the international bankers in Europe. The Island of Guernsey off the coast of England has used printed money for 200 years, incurring no debts and therefore no interest.
Get rid of the Federal Reserve, which is neither federal nor a reserve, but rather a consortium of private banks who now make our money and loan it to the government at usury rates.
Restore states' rights and US Notes!
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» Uh huh
Posted by: EinMD
» Oh please ! Your support of Big Military is what's the problem !
Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
» RE: Uh huh
Posted by: dover23
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ClassAct on Feb 27, 2009 8:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: HMOs
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: underledge on Feb 27, 2009 8:20 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Reading the comments on this article, it appears that no one has a solution to the situation we are in. Those who think we can go back to the way it was are delusional and those thinking we can go green, ride bikes to work, etc. fall in the same group. The rich get richer and the poor, poorer.
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» RE: hello....
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: CUnknown on Feb 27, 2009 8:21 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For example, if the problem is Social Security, we can fix that by raising taxes on the rich. If the problem is Medicare, we can fix that with single-payer.
Of course the big problem she didn't even touch (no mention of the Fed and of fractional reserve banking). The debt she dismissed as a problem, which is insane.
But in general, yes I believe that America could come out of this still strong, and remain strong for many years. IF we did the right things. Who is going to do that? Bush sure as hell didn't. Clinton didn't. Who was the last President who did anything right, Reagan? Don't make me laugh. I guess, who, Carter? That's funny, but somehow I'm not laughing this time.
We're expecting this Obama guy to... do what? Give us single-payer? He's already said he won't. Balance the budget? He's already said it will still be roughly a trillion a year by the time his 1st term is up. Fix Social Security? Oh yeah.. he'll "fix" it good alright. I can't wait to see how hard he "fixes" it. Shift to alternative energy? The man talks a lot about clean coal, people, it's time to wake up on this one. End the Fed and switch to a sustainable monetary system? Maybe when pigs fly. No, I think pigs flying is probably more likely.
We could fix our problems by doing the right things, but we're not going to do the right things. That is where this article totally fails.
What we will end up with: steadily increasing deficits over time, and declining tax revenues due Baby Boomers being 'takers' on SS instead of 'givers', the Medicare insolvency issue, and also peak oil and environmental collapse harming our GDP.
That is a recipe for financial disaster.
She said something like "If you yank away SS from boomers, they might start to save for the future instead of spending freely!" Oh, they better start saving alright. Saving up food and water in their basements, for one.
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» RE: America could come out of this still strong IF we do the right things
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» Clinton
Posted by: CUnknown
Comments are closed-
Posted by: oregoncharles on Feb 27, 2009 9:44 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THEY AREN'T IN CHARGE.
Democrats are.
In fact, Conservatives are a dead letter, as well as a dead horse: their whole schtick has been discredited. They linger in the Senate, and may be able to cause some trouble there, because the Senate turns over so slowly; but they have power there only because there are conservative Democrats, and mainly because the "Democratic" leadership colludes with them.
Face it: The Democrats have the whole trifecta: House, Senate, Presidency, and by wide margins. If this government stumbles, the blame is all on the Dems.
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» I agree with you oregoncharles, but
Posted by: zipoka
» RE: Just a friendly reminder.
Posted by: Quist
» RE: Beating a Dead Horse.
Posted by: JSquercia
» Baloney. Dems inherited a...
Posted by: jvaljon1
» Baloney. Dems inherited a...
Posted by: jvaljon1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jimswanson on Feb 27, 2009 9:46 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
“The Bush League of Nations” [for FREE download of entire $25.95 book]
Let’s pray that the destructive right continues to spout these “10 Reasons” and all the other old GOP nostrums that drove America off the cliff.
This will cause more and more Americans to realize the obvious—that America’s government, like America’s military and America’s financial system, cannot be entrusted to GOP crooks, nitwits and mercenaries.
Bearing in mind that the best humor is based in truth, here’s an accounting joke that says it all:
The GOP’s balance sheet for America has two sides, with liabilities on the left, and assets on the right. The problem is that on the left, there’s nothing right, while on the right, there’s nothing left.
My progressive views are expressed in The Bush League of Nations: The Coalition of the Unwilling, the Bullied and the Bribed – the GOP’s War on Iraq and America, by James A. Swanson (2008, published by CreateSpace Publishing, 448 pages).
You can now download the entire $25.95 book for FREE at www.bushleagueofnations.com.
I ask for nothing in return, except that you consider using it as a resource to help restore and build America.
Jim Swanson, Los Altos, CA
“The Bush League of Nations” [for FREE download of entire $25.95 book]
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» The Democrat "progressives" have.....
Posted by: FredJones
» Again, check your facts
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» your smarm is giving away your frustration, 'Bearish
Posted by: FredJones
» This is an ad hominem argument
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» You are a hypocrite
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: your smarm is giving away your frustration, 'Bearish
Posted by: JSquercia
» Okay this is the third or fourth Alternet article
Posted by: zipoka
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kk33deg on Feb 27, 2009 10:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» No Mission No Money
Posted by: edgar1
» RE: No Mission No Money
Posted by: Quist
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Feb 27, 2009 12:29 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have millionaires in congress.Whom do you think they serve? The folks that have way more money than they do. If America ran like a business,they'd fold up their tents and shrink out of sight. Why?
In business if a 51% share was faultering ,the business would die,there would be a huge tax sell off and the investors would bail out like a skydiver from a plane.
In America 52% of us are faultering under the
oppression of underemployment. That means we don't earn enough money to meet basic expenses.
Forget about going to a cheap movie house or God forbid,go see a local band at a bar, there's just no money for it. There's barely enough to pay the bills and buy food. But as a 'major shareholder' in America,there's no bailout for us. They don't think we're worth it. They call us lazy and hopelessly over spending beyond our means. WAKE UP DICKHOLES!!!
It's the mid to upper middleclass that lives beyond their means,that think their life won't be complete without a $300 hairstyle or a Lexus or an extremely large house...for two people.
Yet those are the very people that will see the greatest help. They will get the biggest tax write-offs. The biggest 'stimulus' checks.
While the 52% that earn under 35,000 a year get the least. We're not being qualified for $400,000 home loans. We get that loan laughed in our faces. We're not the ones who fucked up our economy. IT WAS THE RICH!!! The bankers,the stock brokers,the insurance giants
that get bailed out and the first 700 billion was sent out to people that flatout told DC 'We ain't paying it back.' But they got it anyway.
I think it's time we let the greedy asspins
fall on their faces,lose everything they stole out of the mouths of the working poor.
They bitch that the market is as low as it was in 1997, Hey wasn't the the time of the Clinton Prosperity? If you listened to Hillary it was. So why is that bad now? because the greed machine got the market up to $14,000 a share for bluechip stocks. So what they are really saying is that there was no prosperity in the Clinton years...unless you were already rich. Just like now.
Washington and the rest of you neo-con buttlickers had better get it right and start thinking about taking care of the people you shit all over to get to your fancy gated communities...before they become your prisons.
52% are mad as hell. 52% skip meals,not because we want to fit into a size zero but because we CAN'T AFFORD THE FOOD.
Like the Declaration says,and I'm paraphrasing
'When a governance fails to support the people it is the right of the people to abolish said governance' People,it's getting to be that time.
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» We all have a stake in Money that buys value.
Posted by: edgar1
» Your sense of entitlement........
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: Your sense of entitlement........
Posted by: jeffrey7
» Jeffrey7
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: Jeffrey7
Posted by: jeffrey7
» Jeffrey7 is a "mensch"
Posted by: FredJones
Comments are closed-
Posted by: peterjkraus on Feb 27, 2009 12:54 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Jesus, come on down and tell this boob......
Posted by: jeffrey7
Comments are closed-
Posted by: peterjkraus on Feb 27, 2009 12:56 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: AP1 on Feb 27, 2009 1:13 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Blame the other party...that's politics in the U.S.
Posted by: Quist
Comments are closed-
Posted by: tony_opmoc on Feb 27, 2009 1:27 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You may react in a very strange way
And put up a massive poster covering the entire front of your house that you have made yourself
And knock on our door
And completely fail to get welcomed into our home - because my wife answered the door
If I'd got their first...
But she was wonderful to him and invited him to the pub tomorrow (there's a great band on and its FREE to get in - and we would certainly buy him an Orange Juice - or even a Pint of Beer - he could just drink Pints of Water - served Free - without any problem whatsoever)
She has a heart of gold
But was doing the ironing
And was a bit phased by our 45 year old neighbour turning up on our doorstep dressed like David Bowie as if it was 1971
Aladdin Sane
Not a problem if you get your timing right
Tony
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» RE: Society Is Falling Apart / Coming Together
Posted by: tony_opmoc
» RE: Society Is Falling Apart / Coming Together
Posted by: tony_opmoc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: zola77 on Feb 27, 2009 1:38 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
I DONT REMEMBER ANY PAST LEADERS OF THE U.S SAYING "GET THE F*** OUT OF HERE YOU WEAK PIECE OF S***".
Actually Reagan was the one who started saying crap like that - unfortunately he did not embody the vision of the founders - he was just an opportunist a-hole.
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» oops, posted in wrong place
Posted by: zola77
» Zola77
Posted by: FredJones
Comments are closed-
Posted by: FredJones on Feb 27, 2009 3:22 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't care what labels you use the reality is this.
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» RE: Can we say, "strawman"?
Posted by: Quist
» Can we say, "smarmy"?
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: The last time I checked I was still an independent.
Posted by: Quist
» How nice for you.
Posted by: FredJones
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Ghoulman on Feb 27, 2009 3:56 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Consider how, even in this article, it's pointed out how even Reagan and Bush Sr. have, during their Administrations, raised taxes yet they publicly stated they stood for the opposite. Obama pulled a great Clinton by not mentioning any taxes in his new budget at all. Great speech, as always. Haha!
Its just PR man.
The Republicans (Conservatives) and Democrats (Liberals) are just that... symbols of a certain kind of governance but completely the same in practice. Why? Because it's the elite who own and thus run this place. What is actually helpful info for The People is not in their interests.
Arguing any political slant in American media is doomed to being one side or the other in spite of what facts might lead to actual understanding of what is needed to help the world wide economy from a coming decade long Depression. Cause it's informed people, you and me, that will ultimately do that.
The media is just to sell you things, make you a consumer. Everything else is 'fill' (that's the actual media term for it, btw). So we get the back and forth on TV that passes for information and news.
Otherwise we get the Treasury Secretary saying certain economists 'just don't understand Washington' to Republican crazies declaring a civil war will fall on us all due to Obama.
Obama's 'spending' or 'pork' criticism is exactly what Republicans say about ANY spending THEY didn't do. Democrats just didn't bother criticizing Bush.
Let me say up front, I do agree with this article that at this time much of what the Republicans are saying (typically) will be DISASTROUS for the future and that Obama' spending is the right thing to do (if not enough)... but wrapping that argument into Left vs. Right is not what I'd call 'progressive'.
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Posted by: maxsmart on Feb 27, 2009 4:38 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You know kind of like everyone is worth being cared for as a human being who is suffering. Kind of like the Hippocratic oath was supposed to be. Rather than caring for a profit center or a liability as the case may be!!!
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» Liberals love to save the poor -- WITH OTHER PEOPLE's labor and money
Posted by: EagleX
» RE: Got proof???
Posted by: Quist
» YOU stand corrected!
Posted by: EagleX
» I AGREE. Let's start with Mish Obama.
Posted by: FredJones
» Compared to your idiot-in-chief George W?
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» 'Bearish there is help for you
Posted by: FredJones
» Again, more ad hominem right wing crap
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» You are a hypocrite.
Posted by: FredJones
Comments are closed-
Posted by: EagleX on Feb 27, 2009 4:53 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Note that the emergence of the Marxist union of Obama and a radical liberal Congress has so dramatically shocked and stunned the markets (over 50% collapse since it became apparent that Obama was going to be elected in October 2008) that a minor recession has morphed into a possible “great depression”
Note that the sum of ALL yearly budget deficits throughout the entire Bush administration will not equal any of the upcoming Obama Marxist deficits. Indeed, the Marxist Congress will destroy America's economic well being for years to come.
Note that it is acknowledge by all but a few fringe on Alternet that “government that governs least, governs best”-- Jefferson. Yet, the Left made a cottage industry of criticizing the Bush administration for running up deficits in the billions, while Obama, Pelosi, et al are fawned over for running up deficits in the TRILLIONS.
If the Left didnt have double standards, they wouldn't have any standards.
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» you are aware that the wars weren't in the budget, right?
Posted by: hurricane hugo
» RE: you are aware that the wars weren't in the budget, right?
Posted by: EagleX
» since you were unable to grasp even the simplest of points,
Posted by: hurricane hugo
» RE: This so-called correction along with the others stinks of logical fallacies!
Posted by: EagleX
» EagleX
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: Fred do you even know what a logical fallacy is because...
Posted by: Quist
» Don't be a thug
Posted by: FredJones
» RE : Debating with extreme ideologues is a waste of time!
Posted by: Quist
» Quist....
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: Fred...you make me laugh.
Posted by: Quist
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Posted by: EagleX on Feb 27, 2009 5:03 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The deficits would have been considerably less had the most destructive MAN-MADE (9/11) and NATURAL (katrina) disasters to the US homeland in history not occurred on Bush's watch.
In addition, none, but fringe, can argue that Bush correctly cut taxes to eliminate the recession that he inherited from clinton.
Note that 9/11 may not have occurred had clinton killed bin laden when he had the chance to do so numerous times and had clinton not gutted the intel community.
Note that Reagan's increase in the deficit throughout his entire two terms is less than what the Marxist's in Congress will do in just one year (pick any year between 2009 and 2019)
In addition, while the Left will run-up deficits that will destroy our meritocracy and created generational moral hazard for decades, Reagan's increased spending led to the longest sustained growth in history and victory in the Cold War against a despotism that had the capability to kill every American 10 times over.
Note that Sara hypocritically rails against Reagan for running up deficits in the billions while Obama and his merry band of botoxed and hairplugged drunken sailors will run-up deficits in the trillions.
If the Left didn't have double standards, they wouldn't have any standards.
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» If you really believe in a meritocracy,
Posted by: hurricane hugo
» YOU stand corrected!
Posted by: EagleX
» HEY!
Posted by: FredJones
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Posted by: tony_opmoc on Feb 27, 2009 5:09 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: EagleX on Feb 27, 2009 5:15 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Her delusion is why democrats must never be allowed anywhere near capitol hill after they are voted out en masse in 2012.
The following is from the Social Security Administration verbatim:
""In 2017 we will begin paying more in benefits than we collect in taxes. Without changes by 2041 the Social Security Trust Fund will be exhausted.""
Everyone one of you automatons who voted democrat must understand that your retirement benefits will be reduced and degraded.
In addition, every young person must understand that these smiling Leftist are saddling you with tremendous debt that will be paid by YOU in blood, sweat, and toil.
For example, you will have significantly less for yourselves and your future families then previous generations thanks to irresponsible governance by the few (moderate republicans and all democrats)
Don't blame anyone but yourself when you "reap the whirlwind" in the next 20 years.
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» RE: Correction #3 -- Sara and the Left's irresponsible disregard for the entitlement bomb!
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: EagleX on Feb 27, 2009 5:30 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now they are downplaying the debt forced down our throats that is an order of magnitude greater than anything even the most rabid spending republicans could imagine.
If the left didnt have double standards, they wouldnt have any standards.
for all those young people out there with the obama stickers on your car's bumper, READ THIS SUCKERS!
In summary, the young idiots who are fawning over Obama and his relentless drive to destroy meritocracy over marxism are going to have a standard of living similar to that of the idiots who fawned over peron in argentina in the 70's when he destroyed the most prosperous nation in latin america.
this is for you folks, I won't have to live in the mess created by Obama and CO. -- I will be dead or near death.
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Posted by: EagleX on Feb 27, 2009 5:40 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Note that it probably won't matter when/if social security collapses since medicade and medicare and "Obama bane" will have broken the nation before that occurs
However, if by some miracle, we can resort common sense and responsibility in governance by throwing out both democrats and republicans then social security will be the knife turning in our gut that will make America a permanent socialist basket case.
For example, Sara's "solution" is an ever expanding application of job killing, growth killing, and innovation killing taxation to pay for the increasing encroachment of social security expenditures.
Why should Sara be alarmed by the destructive effects of increased taxation on future generations when she supports the present unprecedented rape of American society by the Marxists in the White HOuse and COngress.
alas, I am going to take a break. Debunking Liberal hypocrisy is tiring.
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Posted by: tony_opmoc on Feb 27, 2009 5:42 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At least he makes far more sense than anyone else who knows the slightest bit about economics in America
If you want me to give you a list of people who even have the slightest clue about analysing the current financial problem then I will
But it is Friday night
So instead of worrying about it
Watch
Jimi Hendrix - Voodoo Chile Atlanta '69 '70
Tony
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» RE: AGREE!!!
Posted by: Quist
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Posted by: Bibsisis on Feb 27, 2009 7:49 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In a word, WAR, to put it very simply, is why our economy has tanked, why millions have lost their jobs and homes.
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» You have identified the "casual factor" now for a laugh Bibsisis please explain the ...
Posted by: EagleX
» RE: I let the Nobel-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz explain.
Posted by: Quist
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Posted by: reg373 on Feb 27, 2009 8:44 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» reg373, a question
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: Answer : DEBT!
Posted by: Quist
» OMG am I about to agree with Quist?
Posted by: FredJones
» RE: See, no ideology needed...just common sense.
Posted by: Quist
» RE: Trickle Down I and II
Posted by: EagleX
» RE: Trickle Down I and II
Posted by: Quist
Comments are closed-
