COMMENTS: 75
How Far Down the Economic Hole Are We Headed?
Sign up to stay up to date on the latest Economy headlines via email.
And so on the 29th day of his presidency, Barack Obama signed the stimulus bill. But the earth did not move. The Dow Jones fell almost 300 points. G.M. and Chrysler together asked taxpayers for another $21.6 billion and announced another 50,000 layoffs. The latest alleged mini-Madoff, R. Allen Stanford, was accused of an $8 billion fraud with 50,000 victims.
“I don’t want to pretend that today marks the end of our economic problems,” the president said on Tuesday at the signing ceremony in Denver. He added, hopefully: “But today does mark the beginning of the end.”
Does it?
No one knows, of course, but a bigger question may be whether we really want to know. One of the most persistent cultural tics of the early 21st century is Americans’ reluctance to absorb, let alone prepare for, bad news. We are plugged into more information sources than anyone could have imagined even 15 years ago. The cruel ambush of 9/11 supposedly “changed everything,” slapping us back to reality. Yet we are constantly shocked, shocked by the foreseeable. Obama’s toughest political problem may not be coping with the increasingly marginalized G.O.P. but with an America-in-denial that must hear warning signs repeatedly, for months and sometimes years, before believing the wolf is actually at the door.
This phenomenon could be seen in two TV exposés of the mortgage crisis broadcast on the eve of the stimulus signing. On Sunday, “60 Minutes” focused on the tawdry lending practices of Golden West Financial, built by Herb and Marion Sandler. On Monday, the CNBC documentary “House of Cards” served up another tranche of the subprime culture, typified by the now defunct company Quick Loan Funding and its huckster-in-chief, Daniel Sadek. Both reports were superbly done, but both could have been reruns.
The Sandlers and Sadek have been recurrently whipped at length in print and on television, as far back as 2007 in Sadek’s case (by Bloomberg); the Sandlers were even vilified in a “Saturday Night Live” sketch last October. But still the larger message may not be entirely sinking in. “House of Cards” was littered with come-on commercials, including one hawking “risk-free” foreign-currency trading — yet another variation on Quick Loan Funding, promising credulous Americans something for nothing.
This cultural pattern of denial is hardly limited to the economic crisis. Anyone with eyes could have seen that Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire resembled Macy’s parade balloons in their 1998 home-run derby, but it took years for many fans (not to mention Major League Baseball) to accept the sorry truth. It wasn’t until the Joseph Wilson-Valerie Plame saga caught fire in summer 2003, months after “Mission Accomplished,” that we began to confront the reality that we had gone to war in Iraq over imaginary W.M.D. Weapons inspectors and even some journalists (especially at Knight-Ridder newspapers) had been telling us exactly that for almost a year.
The writer Mark Danner, who early on chronicled the Bush administration’s practice of torture for The New York Review of Books, reminded me last week that that story first began to emerge in December 2002. That’s when The Washington Post reported on the “stress and duress” tactics used to interrogate terrorism suspects. But while similar reports followed, the notion that torture was official American policy didn’t start to sink in until after the Abu Ghraib photos emerged in April 2004. Torture wasn’t routinely called “torture” in Beltway debate until late 2005, when John McCain began to press for legislation banning it.
Steroids, torture, lies from the White House, civil war in Iraq, even recession: that’s just a partial glossary of the bad-news vocabulary that some of the country, sometimes in tandem with a passive news media, resisted for months on end before bowing to the obvious or the inevitable. “The needle,” as Danner put it, gets “stuck in the groove.”
For all the gloomy headlines we’ve absorbed since the fall, we still can’t quite accept the full depth of our economic abyss either. Nicole Gelinas, a financial analyst at the conservative Manhattan Institute, sees denial at play over a wide swath of America, reaching from the loftiest economic strata of Wall Street to the foreclosure-decimated boom developments in the Sun Belt.
When we spoke last week, she talked of would-be bankers who, upon graduating, plan “to travel in Asia and teach English for a year” and then pick up where they left off. Such graduates are dreaming, Gelinas says, because the over-the-top Wall Street money culture of the credit bubble isn’t coming back for a very long time, if ever. As she observes, it took decades after the Great Depression — until the 1980s — for Wall Street to fully reclaim its old swagger. Not until then was there “a new group of people without massive psychological scarring” from the 1929 crash.
In states like Nevada, Florida and Arizona, Gelinas sees “huge neighborhoods that will become ghettos” as half their populations lose or abandon their homes, with an attendant collapse of public services and social order. “It will be like after Katrina,” she says, “but it’s no longer just the Lower Ninth Ward’s problem.” Writing in the current issue of The Atlantic, the urban theorist Richard Florida suggests we could be seeing “the end of a whole way of life.” The link between the American dream and home ownership, fostered by years of bipartisan public policy, may be irreparably broken.
Pity our new president. As he rolls out one recovery package after another, he can’t know for sure what will work. If he tells the whole story of what might be around the corner, he risks instilling fear itself among Americans who are already panicked. (Half the country, according to a new Associated Press poll, now fears unemployment.) But if the president airbrushes the picture too much, the country could be as angry about ensuing calamities as it was when the Bush administration’s repeated assertion of “success” in Iraq proved a sham. Managing America’s future shock is a task that will call for every last ounce of Obama’s brains, temperament and oratorical gifts.
The difficulty of walking this fine line can be seen in the drama surrounding the latest forbidden word to creep around the shadows for months before finally leaping into the open: nationalization. Until he started hedging a little last weekend, the president has pointedly said that nationalizing banks, while fine for Sweden, wouldn’t do in America, with its “different” (i.e., non-socialistic) culture and traditions. But the word nationalization, once mostly whispered by liberal economists, is now even being tossed around by Lindsey Graham and Alan Greenspan. It’s a clear indication that no one has a better idea.
The Obama White House may come up with euphemisms for nationalization (temporary receivership, anyone?). But whatever it’s called, what will it mean? The reason why the White House has been punting on the new installment of the bank rescue is not that the much-maligned Treasury secretary, Timothy Geithner, is incapable of getting his act together. What’s slowing the works are the huge political questions at stake, many of them with consequences potentially as toxic as the banks’ assets.
Will Obama concede aloud that some of our “too big to fail” banks have, in essence, already failed? If so, what will he do about it? What will it cost? And, most important, who will pay? No one knows the sum of the American banks’ losses, but the economist Nouriel Roubini, who has gotten much right about this crash, puts it at $1.8 trillion. That doesn’t count any defaults still to come on what had been considered “good” mortgages and myriad other debt, whether from auto loans or credit cards.
Americans are right to wonder why there has been scant punishment for the management and boards of bailed-out banks that recklessly sliced and diced all this debt into worthless gambling chips. They are also right to wonder why there is still little transparency in how TARP funds have been spent by these teetering institutions. If a CNBC commentator can stir up a populist dust storm by ranting that Obama’s new mortgage program (priced at $75 billion to $275 billion) is “promoting bad behavior,” imagine the tornado that would greet an even bigger bank bailout on top of the $700 billion already down the TARP drain.
Nationalization would likely mean wiping out the big banks’ managements and shareholders. It’s because that reckoning has mostly been avoided so far that those bankers may be the Americans in the greatest denial of all. Wall Street’s last barons still seem to believe that they can hang on to their old culture by scuttling corporate jets, rejecting bonuses or sounding contrite in public. Ask the former Citigroup wise man Robert Rubin how that strategy worked out.
We are now waiting to learn if Obama’s economic team, much of it drawn from the Wonderful World of Citi and Goldman Sachs, will have the will to make its own former cohort face the truth. But at a certain point, as in every other turn of our culture of denial, outside events will force the recognition of harsh realities. Nationalization, unmentionable only yesterday, has entered common usage not least because an even scarier word — depression — is next on America’s list to avoid.
AlterNet is making this material available in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107: This article is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.
Stay up to date with the latest Economy headlines via email
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Perry Logan on Feb 23, 2009 2:44 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But now that a Democrat is in office, the problem has disappeared. Now a depression is a depression again. Torture is torture. Deficit is deficit. It's OK to call things what they really are, if you can pin it on a Democrat. That's our system.
Myst
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: We can start calling things by their real names again
Posted by: flymulla
» RE: We can start calling things by their real names again
Posted by: flymulla
Comments are closed-
Posted by: PointMan on Feb 23, 2009 3:52 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Excuse me while try to hold my dinner down.
This whole column is based on a complete crock. Obama was bankrolled into his DC easy chair by the same Wall Street criminals that created the meltdown. Obama's entire cabinet and White House staff are run by these corporate mafia sharks. To say this Police State poser should be the subject of pity is moonbat insanity.
What Obama has done so far is to back a national FISA Big Brother spy program and the lunatic genocide of "war on terror" before he rubberstamped one "Wall Street Bailout" theft spree after the next pushed down the nation's throat as "rescue". The "stimulus plan" is just another big dollar crock that won't do much but enrich corrupt political hacks across the country.
For anybody that takes the NY Times or any of the MSM at face value - remember the past. This is the paper that year-after-year sold Iraq invasion "war on terror" when anybody with a web hookup knew it was a Big Oil grab and absolute bloody murder for corporate crime.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Alternet may be getting some heat . . .
Posted by: dustdevil
» RE: ich for NY Crimes POLICE STATE LIAR-FEST
Posted by: djcrow22
» RE: ich for NY Crimes POLICE STATE LIAR-FEST
Posted by: Dboy
» IF OBAMA WAS A RADICAL CONSERVATIVE
Posted by: reelman
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Mister_PsyOps on Feb 23, 2009 4:28 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Isn't that convenient?
The Organized Corporate Crime snakes that looted the system all the way down the bubble and then raped it to the bone through Obama pushed "Bailouts" now want so-called "nationalization" that the New York Times is pushing hard from writers like Frank Rich and economic quacks such as Paul Krugman. (economics is not a science by the way)
Create the criminal problem and then offer the criminal phony solution.
When the Mafia pulls this con on a smaller scale it's called bunko extortion. When entire countries are shaken down, it's called FASCISM. Of course, you won't hear that from the monopoly corporate media or Ivy League that serves the same crooked paymasters that Bush and now el presidente Obama work for.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: FASCISM HIJACKS Washington
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» There may be a side benefit for the corporate mafia . . .
Posted by: dustdevil
» RE: FASCISM HIJACKS Washington
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: FASCISM HIJACKS Washington
Posted by: particle
» RE: FASCISM HIJACKS Washington
Posted by: Mister_PsyOps
» RE: FASCISM HIJACKS Washington
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: FASCISM HIJACKS Washington
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: FASCISM HIJACKS Washington
Posted by: Mister_PsyOps
» RE: FASCISM HIJACKS Washington
Posted by: Man_vs_Kleptocracy
» RE: FASCISM HIJACKS Washington
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: FASCISM HIJACKS Washington
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: FASCISM HIJACKS Washington
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: FASCISM HIJACKS Washington
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: FASCISM HIJACKS Washington
Posted by: bornxeyed
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Tom Degan on Feb 23, 2009 5:10 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If this lasts only a decade, we'll be damned lucky.
And why not? It took us twenty-eight years, one month and three days to dig us into this hole (do the math). Why should any rational person expect this mess to be over and done with in a matter of months or even a few years?
Forgive me for raining on the parade, but the next ten years are going to be rough - really rough. America is going to so through some serious changes in the next decade. Fasten your seat belts.
The seeds of America's economic self suicide can be traced back to that day in 1981 (you did the math, didn't you?) when the American people decided that sending a feeble-minded, dirty old dingbat named Ronald Reagan to the Oval Office - TO THE WHITE HOUSE, FOR PETE'S SAKE! Why are so many people so shocked that something like this has happened? I predicted it on my blog when I referred to "the inevitable, catastrophic economic collapse that is months if not weeks away" (Gentlemen, Start Your Rhetoric, June 8, 2008)
How was I - and so many readers and contributors to AlterNet - able to see it coming? It's very simple: We were paying attention.
They Hate the American People
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: We were paying attention. War is motivated by child abuse.
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: I'd go back even further
Posted by: DCostello2
» RE: How Far Down? Way Down!
Posted by: badkitty
» It took far longer than 28 years and Reagan-Bush to create FASCISM
Posted by: Mister_PsyOps
Comments are closed-
Posted by: 911FalseFlag on Feb 23, 2009 5:23 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
David Ray Griffin, author of several books exposing the lies and deceptions while at the 9/11, will be talking in Boston on April 11 at 6:30 PM On the Boston University campus.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: 9-11 Was Not a Slap but an Inside Job
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: 9-11 Was Not a Slap but an Inside Job
Posted by: dustdevil
» RE: so can we have the truth now?
Posted by: realtruther
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Tom Degan on Feb 23, 2009 5:26 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You rock, Frankie!
Tom Degan
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: I have to agree with you about Frank Rich.
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Too bad he works for the NYT
Posted by: DCostello2
» RE: Too bad he works for the NYT
Posted by: dustdevil
» RE: One more thought:
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: One more thought:
Posted by: GEM-592
» Frank Rich is a sellout for 9/11 "war on terror" & POLICE STATE RULE
Posted by: PointMan
Comments are closed-
Posted by: archivist on Feb 23, 2009 5:48 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These sectors by allowing profit end up sucking away vast resources from our creativity. These are not luxeries much as the post office is not a luxury, they affect EVERYONE. Scraping off the profits doesn't introduce any efficiancy whatsoever it only takes resources away from viable job creating businesses and households.
Nonprofit banking AND energy if done right (bulldog oversight) will empower everyone. Energy use can be regulated fairly with a sliding scale fee system based on increased use. On top of this we need balanced global wages for workers (i.e. to allow imports US equivilant minumum wages for "foreign" workers and property rights, period)
America's economic troubles are tied directly to the grossly underpaid workers who now have our jobs for literally pennies on the dollar. Oh yeah, and they barely eek out a living by- the-way, whereas we used to have disposable income, all of our needs met and a fat retirment.
Much more to disscuss but you get the idea.
Read:
Who Will Tell The People
By William Greider
You won't be able to put it down and shouldn't.
Rather sobering but optomistic book detailing America's (the World's) decline over the last 50 years.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» "...balanced global wages..."
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» RE: nationalization?
Posted by: Dboy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Naty on Feb 23, 2009 6:06 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"...The destructive power of capital is demonstrated in its undermining of the concept of "use-value," in which an object would be purchased because it fulfilled a particular function. Capitalism introduces a system of exchange in which the value of any object is determine by the others for which it can be substituted. Moreover, the overproduction of goods has resulted in the rise of advertising in order to distinguish between them, ensuring that objects are no longer purchased for their use-value but rather for the lifestyles that they represent. In this way, the capitalist dismissal of the criterion of functionality is seen to destroy objective reality. Baudrillard describes this logic as a "catastrophic spiral" because the circular dynamic or intersubstitutionality shatters a series of key oppositions including real/imaginary, true/false, and good/evil (p. 43).
The loss of the real and the consequent undermining of the logic of opposition are demonstrated by attempts to interpret the meaning of political events."
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: solrev on Feb 23, 2009 6:42 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Democritus on Feb 23, 2009 6:51 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are now $10.7 trillion is debt, and our only hope is that when the bills come due, our rampant inflation will allow it to be paid by our great-grandchildren in cheap dollars. But that's a slim hope. The more realistic picture is for us to continue fighting our meaningless cultural, sexual, and drug wars as we stumble down the road to ruin, empty champagne glasses in hand.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: clvngodess on Feb 23, 2009 7:20 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's fair. I'm so fucking sick and tired of this, "do we want to know the truth" shit. Yes we want to know the truth. We're adults. We wear big boy and big girl pants. We can tie our shoes and we drink coffee instead that sugary crap in a box with straw in the morning. So give it to us straight.
Am I gonna die, doc?
Yep.
Are we fucked by this depression.
Yep.
Rip the goddamn bandaid off. Stop with the making nice and fucking denial language already. If I want denial, I'll go the bar. Thank you, very mush...
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: frantic1971 on Feb 23, 2009 8:01 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, Progressives need to offer solutions and hope for better things to attract people to the cause.
If you are a Moderate-type person--I cannot offer the current Progressive movement as an alternative that you might find attractive or support.
There seems to be two types of advice on the current problems available to middle-of-the-road middle class persons, and neither is attractive:
The Conservative and/or Right-wing advice: "SCREW YOU!"
The Progressive answer and advice: "YOU'RE SCREWED!! YOU'RE SCREWED!!"
Let Progressives offer some hopeful solutions, rather then--as so many posters seem to think--gloating in the misfortunes of others. We (Progressives) need to move away from the "glad to see it happening to you! you're a wasteful pig and it is just retribution!".
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Sometimes the answer is a doomsday scenario
Posted by: DCostello2
» I think you are right . . .
Posted by: dustdevil
» RE: Sometimes the answer is a doomsday scenario
Posted by: Dboy
» Who knows the solutions?
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» STEADY STATE ECONOMY is the answer
Posted by: mtnprivy
» RE: Progressives need to offer answers, not doomsday scenarios
Posted by: using
Comments are closed-
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Feb 23, 2009 8:13 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: stellabloo on Feb 23, 2009 9:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Following Black October/November/December, I volunteered at a sports event - leading up the "Greenest Olympics Ever" - out of 800 volunteers I was one of the few who had their own non-disposable water bottle and go-cup.
How can we be so OBLIVIOUS - in spite of the financial meltdown, not to mention the fact our beautiful planet is dying beneath our toxic garbage. Is there ever a point where we start to say: too much plastic, too much disposable crap, too many cars, too much pollution, too many mindless lives fed by usury and speculation and lived in excess, too many wasted lives lived in squalor and despair?
We have been talking for a long time about the value of a fulfilling career that contributes society, the need for education opportunities and affordable housing, and the environmentally imperative goal of sustainable living. Do you think NOW would be a good time to start?
My thought is that the word "socialism" is a bit out-moded and too reminiscent of the McCarthy-witchhunting definition of "communism" - I prefer to think of it as "co-operation". Otherwise the bully with the biggest stick still gets to make the rules. What I REALLY want is for this Ship of Fools to sail away without me, but I seem to be having a little trouble finding the exit :.?
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» I thought you Canadians could utilize hemp for all those plastics.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: having trouble seeing the forest for the trees
Posted by: stellabloo
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sirios on Feb 23, 2009 9:10 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Down to the historical norm - 80% working poor
Posted by: billwald
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pfm on Feb 23, 2009 9:37 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Economic recession, depression is but a state of mind, and interesting those pulling the string of our puppet minions know this well and guard it be revealed NOT to us. As long as we permit them to deceive and not fully, openly disclose, we will remain the marionettes of their fear. We have only to rise and stand firmly on our own two feet and accept nothing less than full complete open disclose from all of them – including you – Mr. President.
No more games, not more backroom bullshit, just lay it our clear, concise and understandably and most important – HONESTLY – we’ll do the rest.
Respectfully,
Paul F. Miller
striving to promote sustainable awareness
BLOG SITE NAME ... AUTHENTICALLY WIRED
BLOG SITE ADDRESS ... http://waterman99.wordpress.com/2009
... everyone has the right to clean & accessible water, adequate for the health & well being of the individual & family, and no one shall be deprived of such acess or quality of water due to individual economic circumstances ... Article # 31 - United Nations
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: lorado on Feb 23, 2009 10:15 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: TELL NO-BAMA THANKS for the $65 it will be a big help/ BIG LIE
Posted by: GEM-592
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Feb 23, 2009 1:37 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do you buy into this interpretation? If so, I have to ask why, after they have failed you so consistently in the past, are you paying any attention at all to the MSM? All they seem to want is to hold their audience. Nothing else matters, not accurate reporting, not the public interest, well (I stand corrected) maybe their political access and furthering their own agenda do matter to them.
And what about the stock market? Does it care about the public interest and the good of the country? In happier times, you probably recall how, when a big employer laid off a big fraction of its workforce the stock market always responded by a big jump upward of that company's stock price. No, the stock market cares about profits and it cares about profits right now, not in the distant future (say, after next quarter).
Returning to the original issue in the light of these observations, how should we interpret the drop in the market that happened in response to Secretary Geither's remarks. Maybe it is merely that the market taking offense at the fact that some oversight of banking practices is to be included in the bill; maybe they were expecting another handout with no strings attached and the market thought that this pesky and unexpected oversight would hurt the profit picture.
There is more than one interpretation for their disappointment that is possible, and just maybe the MSM chose an inaccurate one. It seems quite possible that if this proposal had been more to the liking of the public generally, the stock market would have behaved even more adversely
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: willymack on Feb 23, 2009 2:53 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: GEM-592 on Feb 23, 2009 4:27 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: buddyedgewood on Feb 23, 2009 6:09 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The CC companies started planning for the bubble burst a while ago - maybe you've noticed your credit limit decrease and your APR increase? That's so you don't go spend-crazy when you get laid off. Don't worry, the CC companies will still be asking for (and probably get) a bailout from Uncle Sam and the saps that pay taxes.
I say let them all fail. Let the CC users default on their CC's. Maybe after they've digged themselves out of the hole after 10 years (like me), they'll have a new appreciation for credit. Let the CC companies fail too - that'll teach them to be more careful who they give credit to in the future.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: We are f%#ked!
Posted by: bouyant
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cori on Feb 23, 2009 7:36 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ImSwiss on Feb 24, 2009 10:53 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: reelman on Feb 25, 2009 4:51 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Its not what Obama says, its how he says it
2. You are not hearing what he really means
3. Obama is a radical secular socialist
4. Radical Pelosi was cheering wildly
5. Obama is a known liar
6. Jimmah Carter approves
7. Expect more borrowing and excuses for failure in 2009
8. Let the DOW be an indicator of Obama’s success
http://conservablogs.com/theconservativecrawfish/
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: deegee on Feb 26, 2009 6:19 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: PJAW on Feb 28, 2009 2:41 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The drunken nephew of the steamship line owner has finally been thrown overboard, but that just means we have a new man at the helm not new ownership. Once we change course, we can have a more effective mutiny and reclaim ownership of the vessel. It was an illegal transfer anyway while we were at the buffet table. (burp)
Stay busy, keep a glad heart. If it doesn't work out, at least you can die happy, just don't give in to the gloom. Remember, rich folks can't do anything for themselves, so don't let them scare you. If times get too tough, we can eat them, they're not very elusive. Avoid the brains and the heart though, very toxic.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: liz-at-blackrose on Feb 28, 2009 3:33 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Perry Logan on Feb 23, 2009 2:44 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But now that a Democrat is in office, the problem has disappeared. Now a depression is a depression again. Torture is torture. Deficit is deficit. It's OK to call things what they really are, if you can pin it on a Democrat. That's our system.
Myst
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: We can start calling things by their real names again
Posted by: flymulla
» RE: We can start calling things by their real names again
Posted by: flymulla
Comments are closed-
Posted by: PointMan on Feb 23, 2009 3:52 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Excuse me while try to hold my dinner down.
This whole column is based on a complete crock. Obama was bankrolled into his DC easy chair by the same Wall Street criminals that created the meltdown. Obama's entire cabinet and White House staff are run by these corporate mafia sharks. To say this Police State poser should be the subject of pity is moonbat insanity.
What Obama has done so far is to back a national FISA Big Brother spy program and the lunatic genocide of "war on terror" before he rubberstamped one "Wall Street Bailout" theft spree after the next pushed down the nation's throat as "rescue". The "stimulus plan" is just another big dollar crock that won't do much but enrich corrupt political hacks across the country.
For anybody that takes the NY Times or any of the MSM at face value - remember the past. This is the paper that year-after-year sold Iraq invasion "war on terror" when anybody with a web hookup knew it was a Big Oil grab and absolute bloody murder for corporate crime.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Alternet may be getting some heat . . .
Posted by: dustdevil
» RE: ich for NY Crimes POLICE STATE LIAR-FEST
Posted by: djcrow22
» RE: ich for NY Crimes POLICE STATE LIAR-FEST
Posted by: Dboy
» IF OBAMA WAS A RADICAL CONSERVATIVE
Posted by: reelman
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Mister_PsyOps on Feb 23, 2009 4:28 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Isn't that convenient?
The Organized Corporate Crime snakes that looted the system all the way down the bubble and then raped it to the bone through Obama pushed "Bailouts" now want so-called "nationalization" that the New York Times is pushing hard from writers like Frank Rich and economic quacks such as Paul Krugman. (economics is not a science by the way)
Create the criminal problem and then offer the criminal phony solution.
When the Mafia pulls this con on a smaller scale it's called bunko extortion. When entire countries are shaken down, it's called FASCISM. Of course, you won't hear that from the monopoly corporate media or Ivy League that serves the same crooked paymasters that Bush and now el presidente Obama work for.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: FASCISM HIJACKS Washington
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» There may be a side benefit for the corporate mafia . . .
Posted by: dustdevil
» RE: FASCISM HIJACKS Washington
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: FASCISM HIJACKS Washington
Posted by: particle
» RE: FASCISM HIJACKS Washington
Posted by: Mister_PsyOps
» RE: FASCISM HIJACKS Washington
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: FASCISM HIJACKS Washington
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: FASCISM HIJACKS Washington
Posted by: Mister_PsyOps
» RE: FASCISM HIJACKS Washington
Posted by: Man_vs_Kleptocracy
» RE: FASCISM HIJACKS Washington
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: FASCISM HIJACKS Washington
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: FASCISM HIJACKS Washington
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: FASCISM HIJACKS Washington
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: FASCISM HIJACKS Washington
Posted by: bornxeyed
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Tom Degan on Feb 23, 2009 5:10 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If this lasts only a decade, we'll be damned lucky.
And why not? It took us twenty-eight years, one month and three days to dig us into this hole (do the math). Why should any rational person expect this mess to be over and done with in a matter of months or even a few years?
Forgive me for raining on the parade, but the next ten years are going to be rough - really rough. America is going to so through some serious changes in the next decade. Fasten your seat belts.
The seeds of America's economic self suicide can be traced back to that day in 1981 (you did the math, didn't you?) when the American people decided that sending a feeble-minded, dirty old dingbat named Ronald Reagan to the Oval Office - TO THE WHITE HOUSE, FOR PETE'S SAKE! Why are so many people so shocked that something like this has happened? I predicted it on my blog when I referred to "the inevitable, catastrophic economic collapse that is months if not weeks away" (Gentlemen, Start Your Rhetoric, June 8, 2008)
How was I - and so many readers and contributors to AlterNet - able to see it coming? It's very simple: We were paying attention.
They Hate the American People
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: We were paying attention. War is motivated by child abuse.
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: I'd go back even further
Posted by: DCostello2
» RE: How Far Down? Way Down!
Posted by: badkitty
» It took far longer than 28 years and Reagan-Bush to create FASCISM
Posted by: Mister_PsyOps
Comments are closed-
Posted by: 911FalseFlag on Feb 23, 2009 5:23 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
David Ray Griffin, author of several books exposing the lies and deceptions while at the 9/11, will be talking in Boston on April 11 at 6:30 PM On the Boston University campus.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: 9-11 Was Not a Slap but an Inside Job
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: 9-11 Was Not a Slap but an Inside Job
Posted by: dustdevil
» RE: so can we have the truth now?
Posted by: realtruther
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Tom Degan on Feb 23, 2009 5:26 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You rock, Frankie!
Tom Degan
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: I have to agree with you about Frank Rich.
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Too bad he works for the NYT
Posted by: DCostello2
» RE: Too bad he works for the NYT
Posted by: dustdevil
» RE: One more thought:
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: One more thought:
Posted by: GEM-592
» Frank Rich is a sellout for 9/11 "war on terror" & POLICE STATE RULE
Posted by: PointMan
Comments are closed-
Posted by: archivist on Feb 23, 2009 5:48 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These sectors by allowing profit end up sucking away vast resources from our creativity. These are not luxeries much as the post office is not a luxury, they affect EVERYONE. Scraping off the profits doesn't introduce any efficiancy whatsoever it only takes resources away from viable job creating businesses and households.
Nonprofit banking AND energy if done right (bulldog oversight) will empower everyone. Energy use can be regulated fairly with a sliding scale fee system based on increased use. On top of this we need balanced global wages for workers (i.e. to allow imports US equivilant minumum wages for "foreign" workers and property rights, period)
America's economic troubles are tied directly to the grossly underpaid workers who now have our jobs for literally pennies on the dollar. Oh yeah, and they barely eek out a living by- the-way, whereas we used to have disposable income, all of our needs met and a fat retirment.
Much more to disscuss but you get the idea.
Read:
Who Will Tell The People
By William Greider
You won't be able to put it down and shouldn't.
Rather sobering but optomistic book detailing America's (the World's) decline over the last 50 years.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» "...balanced global wages..."
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» RE: nationalization?
Posted by: Dboy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Naty on Feb 23, 2009 6:06 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"...The destructive power of capital is demonstrated in its undermining of the concept of "use-value," in which an object would be purchased because it fulfilled a particular function. Capitalism introduces a system of exchange in which the value of any object is determine by the others for which it can be substituted. Moreover, the overproduction of goods has resulted in the rise of advertising in order to distinguish between them, ensuring that objects are no longer purchased for their use-value but rather for the lifestyles that they represent. In this way, the capitalist dismissal of the criterion of functionality is seen to destroy objective reality. Baudrillard describes this logic as a "catastrophic spiral" because the circular dynamic or intersubstitutionality shatters a series of key oppositions including real/imaginary, true/false, and good/evil (p. 43).
The loss of the real and the consequent undermining of the logic of opposition are demonstrated by attempts to interpret the meaning of political events."
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: solrev on Feb 23, 2009 6:42 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Democritus on Feb 23, 2009 6:51 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are now $10.7 trillion is debt, and our only hope is that when the bills come due, our rampant inflation will allow it to be paid by our great-grandchildren in cheap dollars. But that's a slim hope. The more realistic picture is for us to continue fighting our meaningless cultural, sexual, and drug wars as we stumble down the road to ruin, empty champagne glasses in hand.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: clvngodess on Feb 23, 2009 7:20 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's fair. I'm so fucking sick and tired of this, "do we want to know the truth" shit. Yes we want to know the truth. We're adults. We wear big boy and big girl pants. We can tie our shoes and we drink coffee instead that sugary crap in a box with straw in the morning. So give it to us straight.
Am I gonna die, doc?
Yep.
Are we fucked by this depression.
Yep.
Rip the goddamn bandaid off. Stop with the making nice and fucking denial language already. If I want denial, I'll go the bar. Thank you, very mush...
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: frantic1971 on Feb 23, 2009 8:01 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, Progressives need to offer solutions and hope for better things to attract people to the cause.
If you are a Moderate-type person--I cannot offer the current Progressive movement as an alternative that you might find attractive or support.
There seems to be two types of advice on the current problems available to middle-of-the-road middle class persons, and neither is attractive:
The Conservative and/or Right-wing advice: "SCREW YOU!"
The Progressive answer and advice: "YOU'RE SCREWED!! YOU'RE SCREWED!!"
Let Progressives offer some hopeful solutions, rather then--as so many posters seem to think--gloating in the misfortunes of others. We (Progressives) need to move away from the "glad to see it happening to you! you're a wasteful pig and it is just retribution!".
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Sometimes the answer is a doomsday scenario
Posted by: DCostello2
» I think you are right . . .
Posted by: dustdevil
» RE: Sometimes the answer is a doomsday scenario
Posted by: Dboy
» Who knows the solutions?
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» STEADY STATE ECONOMY is the answer
Posted by: mtnprivy
» RE: Progressives need to offer answers, not doomsday scenarios
Posted by: using
Comments are closed-
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Feb 23, 2009 8:13 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: stellabloo on Feb 23, 2009 9:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Following Black October/November/December, I volunteered at a sports event - leading up the "Greenest Olympics Ever" - out of 800 volunteers I was one of the few who had their own non-disposable water bottle and go-cup.
How can we be so OBLIVIOUS - in spite of the financial meltdown, not to mention the fact our beautiful planet is dying beneath our toxic garbage. Is there ever a point where we start to say: too much plastic, too much disposable crap, too many cars, too much pollution, too many mindless lives fed by usury and speculation and lived in excess, too many wasted lives lived in squalor and despair?
We have been talking for a long time about the value of a fulfilling career that contributes society, the need for education opportunities and affordable housing, and the environmentally imperative goal of sustainable living. Do you think NOW would be a good time to start?
My thought is that the word "socialism" is a bit out-moded and too reminiscent of the McCarthy-witchhunting definition of "communism" - I prefer to think of it as "co-operation". Otherwise the bully with the biggest stick still gets to make the rules. What I REALLY want is for this Ship of Fools to sail away without me, but I seem to be having a little trouble finding the exit :.?
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» I thought you Canadians could utilize hemp for all those plastics.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: having trouble seeing the forest for the trees
Posted by: stellabloo
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sirios on Feb 23, 2009 9:10 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Down to the historical norm - 80% working poor
Posted by: billwald
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pfm on Feb 23, 2009 9:37 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Economic recession, depression is but a state of mind, and interesting those pulling the string of our puppet minions know this well and guard it be revealed NOT to us. As long as we permit them to deceive and not fully, openly disclose, we will remain the marionettes of their fear. We have only to rise and stand firmly on our own two feet and accept nothing less than full complete open disclose from all of them – including you – Mr. President.
No more games, not more backroom bullshit, just lay it our clear, concise and understandably and most important – HONESTLY – we’ll do the rest.
Respectfully,
Paul F. Miller
striving to promote sustainable awareness
BLOG SITE NAME ... AUTHENTICALLY WIRED
BLOG SITE ADDRESS ... http://waterman99.wordpress.com/2009
... everyone has the right to clean & accessible water, adequate for the health & well being of the individual & family, and no one shall be deprived of such acess or quality of water due to individual economic circumstances ... Article # 31 - United Nations
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: lorado on Feb 23, 2009 10:15 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: TELL NO-BAMA THANKS for the $65 it will be a big help/ BIG LIE
Posted by: GEM-592
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Feb 23, 2009 1:37 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do you buy into this interpretation? If so, I have to ask why, after they have failed you so consistently in the past, are you paying any attention at all to the MSM? All they seem to want is to hold their audience. Nothing else matters, not accurate reporting, not the public interest, well (I stand corrected) maybe their political access and furthering their own agenda do matter to them.
And what about the stock market? Does it care about the public interest and the good of the country? In happier times, you probably recall how, when a big employer laid off a big fraction of its workforce the stock market always responded by a big jump upward of that company's stock price. No, the stock market cares about profits and it cares about profits right now, not in the distant future (say, after next quarter).
Returning to the original issue in the light of these observations, how should we interpret the drop in the market that happened in response to Secretary Geither's remarks. Maybe it is merely that the market taking offense at the fact that some oversight of banking practices is to be included in the bill; maybe they were expecting another handout with no strings attached and the market thought that this pesky and unexpected oversight would hurt the profit picture.
There is more than one interpretation for their disappointment that is possible, and just maybe the MSM chose an inaccurate one. It seems quite possible that if this proposal had been more to the liking of the public generally, the stock market would have behaved even more adversely
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: willymack on Feb 23, 2009 2:53 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: GEM-592 on Feb 23, 2009 4:27 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: buddyedgewood on Feb 23, 2009 6:09 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The CC companies started planning for the bubble burst a while ago - maybe you've noticed your credit limit decrease and your APR increase? That's so you don't go spend-crazy when you get laid off. Don't worry, the CC companies will still be asking for (and probably get) a bailout from Uncle Sam and the saps that pay taxes.
I say let them all fail. Let the CC users default on their CC's. Maybe after they've digged themselves out of the hole after 10 years (like me), they'll have a new appreciation for credit. Let the CC companies fail too - that'll teach them to be more careful who they give credit to in the future.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: We are f%#ked!
Posted by: bouyant
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cori on Feb 23, 2009 7:36 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ImSwiss on Feb 24, 2009 10:53 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: reelman on Feb 25, 2009 4:51 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Its not what Obama says, its how he says it
2. You are not hearing what he really means
3. Obama is a radical secular socialist
4. Radical Pelosi was cheering wildly
5. Obama is a known liar
6. Jimmah Carter approves
7. Expect more borrowing and excuses for failure in 2009
8. Let the DOW be an indicator of Obama’s success
http://conservablogs.com/theconservativecrawfish/
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: deegee on Feb 26, 2009 6:19 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: PJAW on Feb 28, 2009 2:41 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The drunken nephew of the steamship line owner has finally been thrown overboard, but that just means we have a new man at the helm not new ownership. Once we change course, we can have a more effective mutiny and reclaim ownership of the vessel. It was an illegal transfer anyway while we were at the buffet table. (burp)
Stay busy, keep a glad heart. If it doesn't work out, at least you can die happy, just don't give in to the gloom. Remember, rich folks can't do anything for themselves, so don't let them scare you. If times get too tough, we can eat them, they're not very elusive. Avoid the brains and the heart though, very toxic.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: liz-at-blackrose on Feb 28, 2009 3:33 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Tax the Corporations and the Rich or Take Draconian Cuts -- the Decision Is Ours
Fury at Wall St. Banks Fuels Public Action for Move Your Money Campaign
Why Congress Wants You to Shun Your Local Bookstore and Shop at Amazon Instead




