COMMENTS: 213
We'll Never Be Happy Consumers Again -- No Stimulus Package Can Bring That Back
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Venturing out each day into this land of strip malls, freeways, office parks, and McHousing pods, one can't help but be impressed at how America looks the same as it did a few years ago, while seemingly overnight we have become another country. All the old mechanisms that enabled our way of life are broken, especially endless revolving credit, at every level, from household to business to the banks to the US Treasury.
Peak energy has combined with the diminishing returns of over-investments in complexity to pull the "kill switch" on our vaunted "way of life" -- the set of arrangements that we won't apologize for or negotiate. So, the big question before the nation is: do we try to re-start the whole smoking, creaking hopeless, futureless machine? Or do we start behaving differently?
The attempted re-start of revolving debt consumerism is an exercise in futility. We've reached the limit of being able to create additional debt at any level without causing further damage, additional distortions, and new perversities of economy (and of society, too). We can't raise credit card ceilings for people with no ability make monthly payments. We can't promote more mortgages for people with no income. We can't crank up a home-building industry with our massive inventory of unsold, and over-priced houses built in the wrong places. We can't ramp back up the blue light special shopping fiesta. We can't return to the heyday of Happy Motoring, no matter how many bridges we fix or how many additional ring highways we build around our already-overblown and over-sprawled metroplexes. Mostly, we can't return to the now-complete "growth" cycle of "economic expansion." We're done with all that. History is done with our doing that, for now.
So far -- after two weeks in office -- the Obama team seems bent on a campaign to sustain the unsustainable at all costs, to attempt to do all the impossible things listed above. Mr. Obama is not the only one, of course, who is invoking the quest for renewed "growth." This is a tragic error in collective thinking. What we really face is a comprehensive contraction in our activities, especially the scale of our activities, and the pressing need to readjust the systems of everyday life to a level of decreased complexity.
For instance, the myth that we can become "energy independent and yet remain car-dependent is absurd. In terms of liquid fuels, we're simply trapped. We import two-thirds of the oil we use and there is absolutely no chance that drill-drill-drilling (or any other scheme) will change that. The public and our leaders can not face the reality of this. The great wish for "alternative" liquid fuels (bio fuels, algae excreta) will never be anything more than a wish at the scales required, and the parallel wish to keep all our cars running by other means -- hydrogen fuel cells, electric motors -- is equally idle and foolish. We cannot face the mandate of reality, which is to do everything possible to make our living places walkable, and connect them with public transit. The stimulus bills in congress clearly illustrate our failure to understand the situation.
The attempt to restart "consumerism" will be equally disappointing. It was a manifestation of the short peak energy decades of history, and now that we're past peak energy, it's over. That seventy percent of the economy is over, especially the part that allowed people to buy stuff with no money. From now on people will have to buy stuff with money they earn and save, and they will be buying a lot less stuff. For a while, a lot of stuff will circulate through the yard sales and Craigslist, and some resourceful people will get busy fixing broken stuff that still has value. But the other infrastructure of shopping is toast, especially the malls, the strip malls, the real estate investment trusts that own it all, many of the banks that lent money to the REITs, the chain-stores and chain eateries, of course, and, alas, the non-chain mom-and-pop boutiques in these highway-oriented venues.
Washington is evidently seized by panic right now. I don't know anyone who works in the White House, but I must suppose that they have learned in two weeks that these systems are absolutely tanking, that the previous way of life that everybody was so set on not apologizing for has reached the end of the line. We seem to be learning a new and interesting lesson: that even a team that promises change is actually petrified of too much change, especially change that they can't really control.
The argument about "change" during the election was sufficiently vague that no one was really challenged to articulate a future that wasn't, materially, more-of-the-same. I suppose the Obama team may have thought they would only administer it differently than the Bush team -- but basically life in the USA would continue being about all those trips to the mall, and the cubicle jobs to support that, and the family safaris to visit Grandma in Lansing, and the vacations at Sea World, and Skipper's $20,000 college loan, and Dad's yearly junket to Las Vegas, and refinancing the house, and rolling over this loan and that loan… and that has all led to a very dead end in a dark place.
If this nation wants to survive without an intense political convulsion, there's a lot we can do, but none of it is being voiced in any corner of Washington at this time. We have to get off of petro-agriculture and grow our food locally, at a smaller scale, with more people working on it and fewer machines. This is an enormous project, which implies change in everything from property allocation to farming methods to new social relations. But if we don't focus on it right away, a lot of Americans will end up starving, and rather soon. We have to rebuild the railroad system in the US, and electrify it, and make it every bit as good as the system we once had that was the envy of the world. If we don't get started on this right away, we're screwed. We will have tremendous trouble moving people and goods around this continent-sized nation. We have to reactivate our small towns and cities because the metroplexes are going to fail at their current scale of operation. We have to prepare for manufacturing at a much smaller (and local) scale than the scale represented by General Motors.
The political theater of the moment in Washington is not focused on any of this, but on the illusion that we can find new ways of keeping the old ways going. Many observers have noted lately how passive the American public is in the face of their dreadful accelerating losses. It's a tragic mistake to tell them that they can have it all back again. We'll see a striking illustration of "phase change" as the public mood goes from cow-like incomprehension to grizzly bear-like rage. Not only will they discover the impossibility of getting back to where they were, but they will see the panicked actions of Washington drive what remains of our capital resources down a rat hole.
A consensus is firming up on each side of the "stimulus" question, largely along party lines -- simply those who are for it and those who are against it, mostly by degrees. Nobody in either party -- including supposed independents such as Bernie Sanders or John McCain, not to mention President Obama -- has a position for directing public resources and effort at any of the things I mentioned above: future food security, future travel-and-transport security, or the future security of livable, walkable dwelling places based on local networks of economic interdependency. This striking poverty of imagination may lead to change that will tear the nation to pieces.
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Posted by: mmckinl on Feb 10, 2009 12:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All we need do is look at tomorrows annoucement by Tim Geithner, Secretary of the Treasury. The details are already in the press and the bailout amounts are quoted already as 1.5 trillion dollars more (WAPO), not the 350 billion dollars just authorized. Money down a rat hole ...
Indeed the consumer economy is dead ... the lifeblood of our economic model is no more and there is nothing to replace the consumer. We are headed for a Depression the likes of which makes the Great Depression look simple to solve. To add insult to injury the Washington pols run around like chickens with their heads cut off screaming tax cuts, tax cuts! That's what we did for Iraq to restart their economy after we invaded, cut their taxes. The result will be the same here.
It is just a matter of time before the financial system blows up now. It is not a question of 'if' but of when as Zombie banks devour what's left of the "Good Faith and Credit" of these United States of America. The 25 largest banks have over $13 trillion in losses. Obama has put a man in charge that will try to salvage what the greed and fraud of Wall Street hath wrought by pledging our future ... lock, stock and barrel, to no avail.
"Change you can believe in!" has become " Change that will change everything and not for the better."
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» RE: Yep, A Spot On Analysis .... excepting...
Posted by: gazooks
» RE: Yep, A Spot On Analysis .... excepting...
Posted by: gazooks
» It did have to be change we could see happening
Posted by: Beck
» And as Obama stays the Dubya course and brings us change for the worse,
Posted by: CarlaWaters
» He is not "staying the Dubya course", regardless of how often you repeat it like a mantra...
Posted by: mjabele
» Today's Libertarian Is ...
Posted by: iolanthe
» RE: Today's Libertarian Is Not What You Think...
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: Today's Libertarian Is Not What You Think...
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Don't be deluded, everyone is selfish, there is no such thing as selflessness
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» P.P.S.
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» Today's libertarian's are evil...
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Oftenwrong Hobohomo
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» Oftenwrong? Yet you prove my point!
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Oftenwrong? Yet you prove my point!
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: Oftenwrong? Yet you prove my point!
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» You are a hateful person.
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Go Read the Milgram article on the front page 2/12/2009
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: You are a hateful person.
Posted by: lightwing1
» RE: It did have to be change we could see happening
Posted by: undead
» It's not about WANTING Obama to fail
Posted by: truthlover
» RE: It's not about WANTING Obama to fail
Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
» RE: Nice.
Posted by: lightwing1
» RE: Nice.
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Nice.
Posted by: lightwing1
» RE: It did have to be change we could see happening
Posted by: JSurveyor
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Spot on Feb 10, 2009 1:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
we need to educate the working and petty-bourgeois classes about socialist economics, get our political parties to move on a post-industrial agenda (or start our own), and re-distribute land to a class of peasant farmers we'll also need to create.
as the crisis gets deeper, and food becomes scarce, cities are likely to become hives of unrest. even the best paths out look like a treacherous climb.
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» RE: pessimistic.
Posted by: CarlaWaters
» RE: pessimistic.
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» Spot on, Spot On!
Posted by: jaynesian
» RE: Spot on, Spot On!
Posted by: gazooks
Comments are closed-
Posted by: georgiaorwell on Feb 10, 2009 1:41 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You're so right about your points. The biggest difficulty is the size geographically of the US. Maybe if we split off into regions.....
So many people have given great ideas about mass transit, sustainable energy sources, environmental clean-up, etc., but our elected officials aren't listening - at all. I wonder what it would be like if our Congress ever, ever did anything good for our people.
No, instead, we're too busy being the world's policeman or aggressors and fighting for causes in Africa and rest of the Middle East. If people like Bill Gates would spend a third of his time helping hungry, uneducated Americans rather than Africans, I would be actually impressed. I know these third world countries need help, but let the Europeans who colonized them help these countries.
End NAFTA now.
Single payer or free health care for all.
Alternative energy through mass transit.
Stop occupying countries with our military and starting wars everywhere.
Help Americans who need help.
Ed loan forgiveness.
Establish a parliamentary democracy.
If not, abide by our constitution for a change.
Begin a new party with real progressives for REAL change in the reforms you so accurately described.
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» RE: Bilderberg's running the show
Posted by: richholland
» RE: Bilderberg's running the show
Posted by: georgiaorwell
» RE: Bilderberg's running the show
Posted by: richholland
» RE: Bilderberg's running the show
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Bilderberg's running the show
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: No, no, no! Your wrong! It's the Illuminati!
Posted by: sausage
» RE: " Begin a new party with real progressives for REAL change"
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: " Begin a new party with real progressives for REAL change"
Posted by: DaBear
» Correct, the Democrats and Republicans are heavily subsidized while others are not.
Posted by: CarlaWaters
» RE: " Begin a new party with real progressives for REAL change"
Posted by: HoboHomo
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Animal on Feb 10, 2009 2:05 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Correctional officers
Eviction officers
Soldiers/sailors/Marines/airmen
Police
Private security forces(including Blackwater)
Gravediggers- if my predictions about what's coming for America are anywhere near correct, there'll be no shortage of work in digging graves.
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» not gravediggers
Posted by: socialpsych
» RE: not gravediggers
Posted by: Shehova
» RE: not gravediggers
Posted by: iolanthe
» these events take us in some dark directions
Posted by: HoboHomo
» Soylent Green
Posted by: HoboHomo
» Crematoria? No
Posted by: truthlover
» crematorium
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Growth industry jobs in the next decade....
Posted by: Hiroak
» You Forgot: "Neighborhood Potato Farmers"
Posted by: iolanthe
» RE: You Forgot: "Neighborhood Potato Farmers"
Posted by: DaBear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: 911FalseFlag on Feb 10, 2009 3:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
“I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the civilized world. No longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men.”
Go to www.911insidejob.net to read entire article
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» RE: Federal Reserve Bank is purposely destroying America
Posted by: 16180
» RE: Federal Reserve Bank is purposely destroying America
Posted by: gimmie shelter
» RE: Federal Reserve Bank is purposely destroying America
Posted by: using
» RE: The Fed is part of the problem but not the only problem or the major problem.
Posted by: HoboHomo
» there is much misquoted on this web site
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Federal Reserve Bank is purposely destroying America
Posted by: HoboHomo
Comments are closed-
Posted by: CarlaWaters on Feb 10, 2009 4:53 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
P.S.: The current stimulus bill is nothing more than more of the same. Too bad I have idiots at work who try to defend Obama by deluding themselves into believing that Obama threw the Republicans under the bus and that change is coming. I try to point out otherwise and that Obama has actually thrown his base voters under the bus while trying to kiss up to the Republicans and they don't listen. They'll even cover their ears, close their eyes, and sing a-la-la-la ! I guess trying to reason with them is like trying to reason with hardcore Repubs.
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» RE: Uh, no, people still guzzle around and nothing has really changed.
Posted by: richholland
» RE: Uh, no, people still guzzle around and nothing has really changed.
Posted by: CarlaWaters
» RE: Uh, no, people still guzzle around and nothing has really changed.
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Uh, no, people still guzzle around and nothing has really changed.
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» Typical rightwing denial mode just like the idiots in my office.
Posted by: CarlaWaters
» And to finish nailing you on your last rant.
Posted by: CarlaWaters
» RE: No, Carla, we are not idiots. We don't have hands in ears. WE are not singing.
Posted by: undead
» Bush tried that
Posted by: suprmark
» I normally don't believe in spanking but for Beck I'll make an exception !
Posted by: maxpayne
» Online business and political conferencing may be written off because bigshots enjoy travel perks.
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» This is why we need real representation, not the phony two party style that caters to these
Posted by: CarlaWaters
Comments are closed-
Posted by: BST on Feb 10, 2009 5:10 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those people who still believe that somehow we are going to come out of this in a year or so, using what is referred to by many as that "great American spirit" are either delusional, foolish, unaware or in denial.
This is said by a woman (me) who has worked and worked and worked for a lifetime in a career which was gratifying but did not pay Madoff billions. I am now 65 and picking up odd jobs (quickly disappearing) where I can.
I am -- a customary optimist -- completely demoralized about any association I once believed existed between personal industry (hard work) and planning, to a modicum of security. I keep a smiling face to the world because I think we cannot all go around grim and survive; however, my slim figure has an unsightly bread barrel around the middle, deposited there over the past two months by my own jitters.
There's nothing like carbs and starch to soothe the incredulity of life savings deccimated. It's my own personal bread line.
My work schedule over years got me up at 3 a.m. I did it with gratitude for work I loved, I did it to support family, I did it because my parents taught me responsibility and reliability.
I am now out of steam and can only watch with horror the succession of idiocy and lunacy over every modicum of "can-do" spirit that once guided me and my generation.
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» RE: The awful realizations....
Posted by: Beck
» RE: The awful realizations....
Posted by: CarlaWaters
» RE: The awful realizations....
Posted by: HoboHomo
» You're lucky on a lot of fronts.
Posted by: CarlaWaters
» RE: You're lucky on a lot of fronts.
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: The awful realizations....
Posted by: gimmie shelter
» RE: The awful realizations...more than meets the eye
Posted by: Animal
» you guys are talking like
Posted by: helenahanbasquet
» RE: you guys are talking like
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: The awful realizations...more than meets the eye
Posted by: chance garden
» RE: The awful realizations...more than meets the eye
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: The awful realizations....
Posted by: HoboHomo
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kegbot1 on Feb 10, 2009 5:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We may be passive now but there is no way in hell the American people won't go for their massive arsenal of private weapons and do whatever it takes to feed their families at some point. The reason Washington isn't telling the truth is that they are deathly afraid of just this scenario.
Kunstler often writes about his fear that a "cornpone Hitler" will arise from the American hinterlands and that may very well be what happens at some point. So be careful in the future about choosing sides in the coming catastrophe.
TO BST: I deeply feel for your situation. I'm 46 and watching my last dream - owning an independent used books store, die a slow death. I may not be able to get back in private industry (my resume, with all my jobs, now works against me as my age) and even the Federal government, which I spent 10 years working for, is apparently closing the doors on me because my experience is now 'too old.'
What are people like us supposed to do? How are we supposed to find shelter and feed ourselves our our families?
It is this growing anger I am sensing, the monster in the American closet, that no one really wants to talk about - what happens when 50-75-100 million Americans or more have nothing left to lose?
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» what happens when 50-75-100 million Americans or more have nothing left to lose?
Posted by: SteveO
» RE: what happens when 100 million Americans or more have nothing left to lose? Real Change, finally
Posted by: DCostello2
» RE: what happens when 100 million Americans or more have nothing left to lose? Real Change, finally
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: what happens when 100 million Americans or more have nothing left to lose? Real Change, finally
Posted by: chance garden
» RE: what happens when 100 million Americans or more have nothing left to lose? Real Change, finally
Posted by: villager1
» RE: what happens when 100 million Americans or more have nothing left to lose? Real Change, finally
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: what happens when 100 million Americans or more have nothing left to lose? Real Change, finally
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: what happens when 100 million Americans or more have nothing left to lose? Real Change, finally
Posted by: HoboHomo
» 75 million angry, fanatical, desperate people should be enough to dominate the other 225 million.
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» RE: what happens when 100 million Americans or more have nothing left to lose? Real Change, finally
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: what happens when 50-75-100 million Americans or more have nothing left to lose?
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Kunstler occasionally pulls his punches about one thing
Posted by: gimmie shelter
» RE: Kunstler occasionally pulls his punches about one thing
Posted by: DaBear
» Interesting. You and I have similar backgrounds
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: Check out Dmitry Orlov's 5 stages of collapse
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Interesting. You and I have similar backgrounds
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Kunstler occasionally pulls his punches about one thing
Posted by: HoboHomo
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mrcentrist on Feb 10, 2009 5:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: nslave the Wall Streeters
Posted by: Beck
» RE: nslave the Wall Streeters
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: nslave the Wall Streeters
Posted by: mrcentrist
» RE: nslave the Wall Streeters
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Enslave the Wall Streeters
Posted by: FREEDOM OF SPEECH
» RE: nslave the Wall Streeters
Posted by: CarlaWaters
» RE: nslave the Wall Streeters
Posted by: mrcentrist
» RE: nslave the Wall Streeters
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: nslave the Wall Streeters
Posted by: mrcentrist
» Hang the Wall Streeters
Posted by: Animal
» I just have to add, you'd need to enslave the women on Wall St. as well, along with
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Marlena on Feb 10, 2009 6:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: A return to a "simpler" America....
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» RE: A return to a "simpler" America....
Posted by: indirect quotes
» RE: A return to a "simpler" America....
Posted by: HoboHomo
» Let's secede from those who breed...
Posted by: HoboHomo
Comments are closed-
Posted by: FREEDOM OF SPEECH on Feb 10, 2009 7:05 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is inevitable in post-industrial economies: the mechanization of labor leads to rising unemployment...rising unemployment leads to even more social ennui and economic/political instability (such as we are now experiencing) as large amounts of people cannot healthily cope with all of the extra time they have. Nowadays and in to the future most jobs will be 'service sector' jobs (get used to it) because manufacturing and agriculture has become so mechanized and thus MANY fewer people are needed to manufacture or grow a surplus of goods.
Humans in the past were burdened by too much work, and now we modern humans are in many respects burdened by too little work. Many feel that there is simply "not enough to do" because everything is now manufactured so efficiently and quickly, whereas in the past life was one of extreme toil and hardship...this makes many humans in advanced industrial countries feel kind of like useless or guilty non-working lumps when in fact we are suffering from the effects our collective material success which has compounded over the past 100 years. The key is not to "work harder" but to "worker smarter." We should be basking in the glory of our amazing material successes as a species instead of wallowing in misery because the U.S. economy is maturing (some would say 'stagnating') and leveling out.
A major problem is that humans in the most 'advanced' industrialized countries have not been able to (socially) keep pace with the rate which extremely rapid technological progress has altered the once entirely rural human civilization. The overwhelming nature of our technological and material progress in the last two centuries has left many humans bewildered...now is the time to begin to pick up the pieces and search for answers to the ennui and social malaise which too-rapid industrialization has wrought. A social revolution must now begin to catch up with the technological revolution.
The current crisis is one of social adjustment to life in a post-industrial society where we all have much more time on our hands due to, as I said, the large-scale mechanization of human labor (I repeat this because too many people just do not get how important a fact this is). We need positive ways to channel all of our energy which was once expended merely trying to survive in a difficult world - positive ways do not include unhealthy overeating, becoming a TV zombie, doing drugs, etc etc...we need to find ways to socially reconnect with our fellow humans, to re-establish the sociability inherent to humanity which has declined so much due to the hypermaterialistic rat-race we brought upon ourselves in the past couple of centuries of technoindustrial progress.
There is obviously much more work to be done, but even MORE technology likely isn't the answer at this point. We need to sit back and take stock of what we have built so far and figure out ways to socially, politically, and economically adjust to the rapid and far-reaching technological changes which have swept the world in the past couple centuries. A new era is beginning in America and perhaps the entire post-industrial world.
There will be no famines in America unless they are deliberately planned or caused, so you irrational doomsayers here need to stop talking famine - we and nearly every other industrialized country in the world produces a surplus of food, and farmers are paid to NOT grow as much food in some areas so that food prices remain stable. Also, we have a massive oversupply of housing, clothing, autos, and the other necessities of human life.
There is no need to panic: we humans are amazingly resilient and intelligent - we will make it through the current crisis.
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» Losing jobs: not due to mechanization.
Posted by: Ignatz deFyre
» RE: Losing jobs: not due to mechanization.
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
» RE: Not collapse, but a leveling coupled with economic stagnation - we're entering a new era
Posted by: abstractedaway
» RE: Not collapse, but a leveling coupled with economic stagnation - we're entering a new era
Posted by: lightwing1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Spiritgirl on Feb 10, 2009 7:23 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Our Chinese bankers, will not continue to fund our rainbow chasing forever! Republicans and their Democratic cohorts want the government to step aside and let the free market take over, the problem with that logic is that the "free-markets" not only want to continue business as usual- but due to deregulation and no one minding the store we are currently in an economic melt-down! We have entered a new era, that means the days of conspicuous consumption are over! It may mean that if you have the ability to grow a few vegetables - do it, share with your neighbors - or better yet, barter for services! We as a nation do not have the time to wait for Washington to lead - because they don't want to see the CHANGE that must be made! If not now, when?
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Posted by: SlyGuy on Feb 10, 2009 7:24 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Brave new world?
Posted by: CarlaWaters
» RE: Brave new world?
Posted by: gimmie shelter
Comments are closed-
Posted by: gimmie shelter on Feb 10, 2009 7:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But as James points out this may be only a side act to the real show, the point at which we can no longer heat our houses, drive to the markets, manufacture alternative energy systems or get to D.C. to strangle the bums, because of a lack of oil.
Mass transit that is well thought out is the first hurdle to achieve and maybe while all that heavy equipment is in the area maybe the should also be used to clear some land for growing the food that each community will need.
Read the author's books to get a sense of where we are headed whether Washington admits it or not, there is only one conclusion to reach, the money spent in areas which do not address the needs of our country without oil is futile.
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Posted by: grumble-bum on Feb 10, 2009 7:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Kunstler is talented at teasing out the most dismal futures from our current economic, social & environmental realities. We should be grateful for his often crushing warnings, regardless of individual quibbles over specifics. Presented with such clear, understandable consequences to our delusional obsessions & trajectories, it's easy to lose hope entirely.
We shouldn't.
Kunstler deals in probabilities, but as active agents in our own destinies, we deal in potentialities. Our thinking should be focused more on what we can do, rather than what will be done to us. Armed with various worst-case scenarios, we can still choose whether to be paralyzed or galvanized.
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» Well put.
Posted by: freelyb
» RE: Probabilites Vs. Potentialities
Posted by: gimmie shelter
» What do u mean by the point of no return?
Posted by: freelyb
» Gimmie, You Miss My Point.
Posted by: grumble-bum
» RE: Gimmie, You Miss My Point.
Posted by: gimmie shelter
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mnstra on Feb 10, 2009 7:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No wonder people are reaching for their weapons..........You cant make the whole country accountable for the crimes of the few rich elite on Wall Street, We will not tolerate it..This anger is only the beginning of a groundswell of public rage, no wonder they are scared at the CAPITOL. Take a tip from the French reveloution
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» Muddying the waters seems like a good idea to me.
Posted by: freelyb
» RE: Can't arrest the bankers and such, they ALL supported O-blah-blah
Posted by: DCostello2
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Posted by: freelyb on Feb 10, 2009 8:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Long term politicians really do live in a bubble. Of course, we all do, or we wouldn't have been so collectively oblivious to approach of all that is now upon us. But in light of its voluntary position as decision maker for our country, Washington's culture is incredibly insulated -- intellectually and emotionally -- from what is really going on. The long-term political elite are experienced in political maneuvering and little else. They believe that their livelihood depends upon holding this priority, and the public has not effectively convinced them otherwise.
Very few of our policymakers have or seek much in-depth academic knowledge to inform the vital decisions they make on our behalf. How many of our representatives have specific academic backgrounds or even ongoing serious and unbiased interest in economics, finance, history, education, military science, psychology, sociology, spirituality and/or religion? Not many. "Experts" on the Wall Street scene are the most highly specialized reps that we have.
Unfortunately, there are even more profound changes that will be required of us in the very near future. And we will need new levels of expertise from our leadership. Soon we will have to deal with the true imminence of global warming. At present, this is a still just a theoretical future probability in the minds of most. Another painful paradigm shift will occur as we come to grips with the need for population control. Each shift will take us through the same painful process of sacrificing what we think of as our individual rights on behalf of the greater good. So be it.
The potential good news is that this may be a real catalyst for people to separate the true from the false in order to find real meaning. Maybe humanity will finally be compelled to identify and live its highest potential. It's scary, but what choice do we have? I know many people who've already begun this process of stripping away the non-essential. Most of them, including me and mine, become happier by the day. What we are finding in each other and in our world is much more precious than what we are giving up.
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Posted by: underledge on Feb 10, 2009 8:05 AM
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How many times have we been told – we have evolved into a Service Economy – . We will all make our living by cutting each others hair or something along that line. It is actually quite depressing and scary think what will be coming down the pike in the not too distant future. We can’t or refuse to believe that our lifestyles are unsustainable. The worst part is there are few if any alternatives available for most of us. When the cookie crumbles all you have left is crumbs and once they are gone, you have nothing.
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» When the cookie crumbles, plant a garden.
Posted by: freelyb
» RE: When the cookie crumbles, plant a garden.
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: When the cookie crumbles, plant a garden.
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
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Posted by: monkeywrench on Feb 10, 2009 8:12 AM
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Posted by: gimmie shelter on Feb 10, 2009 8:19 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
FOR BUYERS AND SELLERS IN 2009
Despite the poor economy that most of us are dealing with today, the megayacht industry will have its largest EVER year in 2009 with over 1,000 megayachts over 80' in length on order. The largest increase is in orders for boats in the 150-200' size range. All told, the orders would stretch 24 miles if laid end to end. It does seem a trifle - what's the word - 'bizarre' that there is a segment of the world's population that is doing so well.
For the rest of us who are engaged in the boating industry whether we are sellers, buyers, brokers, lenders or dealers the recreational boating market has declined 30% in the past three years. In a nutshell this means brokerage houses are more than ever educating their customers about the importance of real time values, dealers will be holding the line on floor plans and looking for new value added customer services, marine lenders are going to require higher credit scores and debt-to-income factors will come into play more than in the past. For sellers it means coming to grips with today's boat values. For buyers, it is a heyday.
This is real and why do you suppose mega yachts sales would be going up? This is how the masters of the universe are reacting to all the problems we face. Maybe it's so they can go off shore in luxury when the sh.. hits the fan.
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» We have maps...
Posted by: freelyb
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Posted by: lulugeez on Feb 10, 2009 8:23 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we listen to the hype coming from the real estate developers, the answer to our sprawled out living patterns is to now build up. Vertical sprawl is the new gambit of real estate speculators and the politicians they own in perfectly livable towns like mine (Ann Arbor). The imperative is now "Attention, every one to now live in a tower in a mega city". It is taken as gospel that the global flight from rural areas, from agrarian life is voluntary, that every one really wants to live on an island in the Hudson because it is more fun.
Land use is largely driven by governmental policy. Our cities became supersized (in the case of NY, Paris, LA) and emptied (Detroit) through the agency of governmental spending policies. Governments have enabled the concentration of jobs, power in some locations at the expense of others.
Now, in the last gasp of real estate speculation, developers are grabbing every subsidy they can to uglify the cityscapes of smaller town, eliminate economic diversity and void democratic process.
What are the assumptions here? That everyone living in the "Polo Fields" or "Antique Forest" will now abandon their poorly built homes to go live in poorly built high rises in the "cool cities" of the heartland? Even if this were economically possible, would it be the best outcome?
Another, more sustainable solution is to plop down some commercial infratrtucture in walking distance from these neighborhoods, get public transit built and spread out the placement of work. That's right, I actually said spread--decentralize--the workplace around. There is no reason why, in my county all the money for economic stimulus that my state spends needs to go to Ann Arbor. Ypsilanti, Dexter, Chelsea, Saline should also get funds for retrofitting. Why should everyone in the county get on the bus or choochoo to work in my town?
We're still in the thrall of bigger is better. We have plenty of small farms that need markets for their produce, small manufacturers who could do ok with regional sales. But our state spends money in search of the next BIG thing. What about starting up an accordian factory (Detroit used to have five Accordian manufacturers) or ceramics factories (we've lost all these too). Instead we're looking for Bio-tech, life science companies to come here from elsewhere, ignorant of the fact that these industries are already well established elsewhere.
Meanwhile start-up bio/med tech companies with perfectly good products get skipped for state funding while whirlpool gets 120 million in state aid to build a golf community, sited in part on a public park.
In the process of biggifying small towns, democracy must go. Citizens become nymbys, obstacles to progress. Leeds certification and Affordable housing have become the wedges used to cut through opposition to speculative, tax supported development.
One week a city council will use "walkability" as a justification for a high rise. The next week economic realities will dictate the necessity of $60 million for an underground parking structure. The demolition of older housing stock gets spun into an effort to increase affordability, but there is no example of allowing speculative development booms anywhere in the world providing more lower and middle class housing opportunities. Instead the middle disapears and the lower gets pushed to the fringes.
Current policies support a malignancy that is metastasizing while the host (that's us)is dying.
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Posted by: sausage on Feb 10, 2009 8:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I mean he kind of beats around the bush but nowhere in his essay do I read anything like: "Did you notice, folks, that the CEOs of all the failed banks, all the failed insurance companies that received TARP funds...all them sonsuvbitches have MBAs!" In my opinion, the MBA is the worst degree program ever invented in the history of higher education.
I'd just like one of you MBA s.o.b.s to defend your degree right here, right now. How can you defend the worst group-think failure in human history since the invention of monotheistic religion?
No conspiracy is needed! All the top MBA *ssholes--regardless if they, like our last president, received their degree from Harvard School of Business, University of Chicago or online--think alike!
Obama's big mistake right now is that he, a product of the Ivy League, undergrad study at Columbia, law degree from Harvard, accepts the convention wisdom that those who got us into this mess, because of their "education" and "experience," can get us out. Sorry, I don't think so. The country is going to have to lean on economists to get us out of this mess, preferably guys like Dean Baker, Paul Krugman, James K. Galbraith and Ravi Batra. But for Krist's sake keep the MBAs the hell away from any economic stimulus bills and keep them the hell away from the Halls of Congress. Do not let any s.o.b. with an MBA degree have any input on how to turn the economy around!
My only other criticism of Kunstler's essay is that he is as much a part of the problem as any MBA, for he seems to be part of what I call "the ideologically pure left". I mean, really J.H., you're right. But the nation, our culture, our civilization, is at point "A," not a very good place at this particular moment. But how do we get to point "C" without going through point "B" first? How do we even get to point "C" without a few foul-ups along the way? I mean, until something better comes along we have to make do with what we have, don't we?
I'll conclude by saying that in my opinion the ideologically pure left--and interesting, isn't it, that most of the leading lights of this group are rather well-off compared to the rest of us--has been as destructive force in American politics as the forces of reaction.
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» Education as programming
Posted by: Ignatz deFyre
» RE: Kunstler's analysis fails to address who got us into this mess
Posted by: mnstra
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Posted by: gimmie shelter on Feb 10, 2009 8:55 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: gimmie shelter
Posted by: mnstra
» NOT Old News
Posted by: JayHaden
» RE: NOT Old News
Posted by: HoboHomo
» Documentary "Taken For a Ride"
Posted by: jackyD
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Posted by: eaanders on Feb 10, 2009 9:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All the other developed countries in the world discovered this long ago, because they have a higher percentage of smart people who aren't as taken in by religion and ideology. They realized that the only way to keep the rich from starving the poor and enslaving the near poor was to have universal health care, mandated vacation time, and retirement and unemployment benefits for everyone. The dumb people in this country don't read and they don't travel, so they never learn how people in other countries prosper. Their main focus is religion and faux patriotism. They've been taught to love guns and war and suffer their fate. They think if they believe the US is the best country in the world, it is. But, they're deluded.
All the rich have to do is make sure these dummies survive so they won't cause trouble. But, their greed may have overcome their judgment this time around. Without the stimulus we will probably end up like Iceland, with a sauce pan revolution or worse. It serves the dummies right. So let them stew in their juices for a while until they learn the hard way that pretending to be rich when you're not doesn't work. They should all be forced to watch Sicko so they can learn how people live and prosper in other developed countries. Maybe then they'll stop believing all the propaganda fed to them by the rich and their clergy.
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» RE: It's the voters, stupid
Posted by: Human Being
» RE: It's the voters, stupid
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: It's the voters, stupid
Posted by: HoboHomo
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Posted by: undead on Feb 10, 2009 9:37 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/02/10
"Fixing the Economy: Of Fences and Futures"
Mr. Obama is doing the same program as Mr. Bush. He has hired many of the same economic morons who brought us to this abyss. Summers, Rubin, Geitner. I know the first two are Clinton boys.
It is amazing you just will not see the facts.
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» RE: Beck the Obamabot DINO troll gets migraine reading the truth.
Posted by: wrinklemomma
» RE: Beck the Obamabot DINO troll gets migraine reading the truth.
Posted by: DaBear
» Thank you, wrinklemomma
Posted by: Karina
» RE: Thank you, wrinklemomma
Posted by: maxpayne
» Where did Beck call anyone a "fat lazy pigshit"? I must have missed that.
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Where did Beck call anyone a "fat lazy pigshit"? I must have missed that.
Posted by: CarlaWaters
» I didn't say exactly that. I was referring to Beck doing her name-calling and then accusing others.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Thank you, wrinklemomma
Posted by: wrinklemomma
» I didn't say that
Posted by: Karina
» RE: Thank you, wrinklemomma
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Beck the Obamabot DINO troll gets migraine reading the truth.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Be careful of jumping the snark of vulgarisms in discourse.
Posted by: helenahanbasquet
» RE: Beck, read this.
Posted by: WYGunston
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Posted by: Dboy on Feb 10, 2009 11:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
dboy
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» RE: JHK
Posted by: HoboHomo
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Posted by: maxpayne on Feb 10, 2009 1:10 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Besides, why not improve technologies to reduce driving and potholes altogether?
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» RE: Jobs Can Be Available.
Posted by: HoboHomo
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Posted by: papatooth on Feb 10, 2009 2:28 PM
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Posted by: madmax427 on Feb 10, 2009 2:28 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
With all the intelligent People and Those THINKING They are intelligent posting here about Who did what, Who is responsible for that, "I told You so" ( The BLAME Game ), I am asking Myself "WHEN are We going to realize BLAMING someone is NOT Helping ANYONE"?
Are We so screwed the only thing We can do is TALK about Who's Fault it is? Are We going to wait until We are Starving to figure out We need to DO something?! Like come up with a WORKABLE Plan!
Personally, Running around screaming "We've All Gonna Die!" or "They did it to Us" (pick Your side!) falls a little SHORT of a SOLUTION!
JMHO
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» RE: Just out of Curiosity, When do You
Posted by: drugs
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Posted by: gimmie shelter on Feb 10, 2009 2:37 PM
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Posted by: yellow on Feb 10, 2009 2:56 PM
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Government taxing and spending is needed to provide an exogenous stimulus to restart employment and growth. Late capitalism, due to growing economic inequality among other causes, is inherently stagnant in its later, more mature phases and needs constant external stimulus to sustain itself.
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Posted by: wormfarmer on Feb 10, 2009 3:50 PM
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» RE: The trait
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: The trait
Posted by: wormfarmer
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Posted by: drugs on Feb 10, 2009 3:55 PM
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Posted by: Alenna on Feb 10, 2009 4:13 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Most Americans are still in denial
Posted by: chance garden
» RE: Most Americans are still in denial
Posted by: wrinklemomma
» RE: Most Americans are still in denial
Posted by: chance garden
» RE: Most Americans are still in denial
Posted by: HoboHomo
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Posted by: Scalpel on Feb 10, 2009 7:06 PM
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Posted by: standingwave on Feb 10, 2009 8:14 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...perhaps debt forgiveness a la Solon is the energizer we need to pull our species out of this predicament - jubilation instead of resignation
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» RE: the way out - garden gaia into eden
Posted by: chance garden
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Posted by: WYGunston on Feb 10, 2009 10:21 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Gqueval on Feb 11, 2009 6:42 AM
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One Billion for each electoral vote to be dispersed to municipalities (not the state governments) as follows:
First billion to every state capitol
Second billion to the most populous city
Third to the next most populous city
Etc.
Rules
No city would get more than one Billion.
The funds are to be used for construction and infrastructure projects that have already begun but are not yet complete. At least half should go to private construction companies and less than half to municipal entities that do regular infrastructure maintenance.
If the city owes money for projects, it must deposit the amount it owes into a state bank and may access those funds as the debt is reduced.
The banks will use these funds to improve their balance sheets and lending to companies within the state.
Gene Queval
Hamilton, NJ
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Posted by: Menopausal Mick on Feb 11, 2009 6:49 AM
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Americans work hard at their jobs, but with some notable exceptions, it isn't exactly back-breaking, sweat running down your face, grit- your- teeth- and- just- do- it physical labor.
This article speaks to what needs to happen for this country to survive a transitional phase like the one we now face. I doubt that the majority of Americans will learn the skills they need or be willing to do the actual hard work that a "return to the land" type of lifestyle requires.
The masses couldn't be bothered to look up when our country was being hijacked. They ignored an illegal and unjust war and torture and signing statements and the systematic destruction of the underpinnings of constitutional government. They allowed any and every action as long as they were able to maintain their status quo soccer mom/nascar dad consumerist lifestyle.
I think that the expectation that a majority of Americans would be willing to change the way that they live before circumstances make the needed changes for them is a bit naieve.
This is a change that government can't force. People have to want it for themselves. So far, I can't see that they do.
Recently, I offered to GIVE a family member an acre of our land and half the food we raise if they would retire on the land and help us with the gardens. He said that he doesn't want that much land because he'd just have to mow it.
That's how different the mindsets are. All he could see is a lawn requiring care. We don't have "lawns" on this farm. We have grassy areas that we harvest for chicken and rabbit feed. And we leave a good portion of the land untouched and in its natural state. Manicured lawns are for the suburbs and a different way of life. Most city folks don't "get it" and if they do get it, they don't want it.
For more localized food production we would need what?? about a twenty percent increase in small local farms near major urban areas? About a thirty percent move to rural rather than suburban life? That assumes one could find that many people willing to do the work and that assumes that they'd be able to make their major incomes from farming efforts.
Do you really think that this will happen?
Menopausal Mick
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» I'LL SEE YOUR ACRE AND RAISE YOU A GARDEN
Posted by: Dennis St. John
» RE: I'LL SEE YOUR ACRE AND RAISE YOU A GARDEN
Posted by: Menopausal Mick
» gimmie shelter
Posted by: gimmie shelter
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Posted by: reelman on Feb 11, 2009 8:46 AM
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note this is ALL borrowed money...on YOUR VISA and your kids too
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Posted by: Dennis St. John on Feb 11, 2009 8:48 AM
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In Europe, one can take trains from rural towns to major cities to other countries for affordable fees. A Eurail pass for $450 is good for a year of unlimited travel. You can't travel by car for $450 per year.
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» money is debt/
Posted by: wleming
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Posted by: reelman on Feb 12, 2009 6:54 AM
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There will be 4 main excuses given by the secular socialist Party:
1…It was not enough $$$
2…It was too late
3…It takes more time than we thought
4…We inherited a worse situation than we thought
(barometers: the DOW and your 401k…despite the borrowed trillion)
***Historically, gov-meant meddling always lengthens recessions***
http://conservablogs.com/theconservativecrawfish/
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Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com on Feb 12, 2009 11:23 AM
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You assume I am a greedy asshole because I think it is immoral to fine and imprison people for not paying income taxes that redistribute wealth.
The truth is I give to charity every month. I am currently unemployed but I do it anyway.
You don't get it and never will because you are so dependent on the handouts of others. So dependent that you would fine and imprison those who refuse to help.
And I am the immoral SOB? Get help, a therapist really.
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Posted by: reelman on Feb 12, 2009 11:50 AM
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- Grover Norquist, president, Americans for Tax Reform, in response to B.O.'s national address Monday night
=====
There will be 4 main excuses given by the secular socialist Party:
1…It was not enough $$$
2…It was too late
3…It takes more time than we thought
4…We inherited a worse situation than we thought
(barometers: the DOW and your 401k…despite the borrowed trillion)
—>Feb 12, 6:59 AM (ET)
By PAN PYLAS, LONDON (AP) - World stock markets fell Thursday amid pessimism about the Obama administration's plans to fix the U.S. banking system and restore the overall health of the world's largest economy.
***Historically, gov-meant meddling always lengthens recessions***
http://conservablogs.com/theconservativecrawfish/
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Posted by: realwealth on Feb 13, 2009 11:36 AM
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As millions in the US and billions throughout the globe become unemployed unless we create a new economy built on something more than consumption, there will be no way to re-employ all these people. The goods new is—we can create a Full Spectrum Economy—a six sector economy that measures and monetizes all the work activities necessary for us to sustain life.
Our current economy is based on the GDP measurement system of 3 sectors—markets, government and illegal activities. These are the work activities we consider economically valuable and the only place to build wealth as it is currently defined. But these three sectors include only a small portion of the economic activities that actually enable our lives to function.
The current 3 sector economy excludes 3 other sectors that produce enormous amounts of vital work. These three sectors are the household enterprises that build the human infrastructure for our society, volunteer service that supports our caring needs and natural/environment sector on which we’re dependent for life. Without these three, the current 3 sector economy would not be able to function, yet, for most of us, they are completely invisible simply because we have not measured, monetized and valued them through economic indicators. .
Because of the GDP measurement system’s biases, we are forced to rely on the markets to be the sole creator of financial wealth. A Full Spectrum Economy enables us to address the limitations of the 3 sector economy’s restrictive measurement system. Adding these three missing sectors provides many new ways for all of us to be working, contributing and building wealth. It results in a system that releases the enormous pressure on the markets to be the sole creators of wealth. It also allows us to reduce the need for government to be the only balance to the markets. Now the household, volunteer and natural environment sectors play a part and all sectors benefit (and if all goes well, the illegal sector will be reduced too!)
The small entrepreneur holds the key to our future but at the same time, being an entrepreneur will not be limited strictly to the market sector. In a Full Spectrum Economy, all 5 sectors hold possibilities for work (assuming you don’t want to go into the illegal sector). In each of these sectors you provide valuable work for building a strong, vibrant economy and you generate wealth—both financial and social that enables the world to function effectively.
The household enterprise—caring for children and elderly through a “professionally trained, well-paid home service corps” could provide 17-34 million jobs in the next economy. The natural sector—working with the environment to launch new businesses that utilize solar, wind, closed loop production systems could bring 5 million new jobs as we seek to transform our current homes, offices, transportation systems, and bring consumables in-line with an earth friendly, green jobs sector. And the volunteer service sector could engage millions of young and older citizens working in community support activities while earning social service credits that could be traded in for caring in one’s senior years or through a crisis time in one’s life. The ability to bank your volunteer efforts into a national service registry and redeem it for caring support in time of need builds the wealth of a social safety net based on your effort and responsibility throughout your entire life.
To learn more: Ann@partnershipway.org A Full Spectrum Economy is based on the work by Riane Eisler in Real Wealth of Nations…creating a Caring economics.
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Posted by: gimmie shelter on Feb 21, 2009 8:11 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The reason the banks have now begun to fail so badly is really do not so much to their incompetence anymore but rather to we the people. It was we the people who took much of our supposed wealth out from the banks and it was we the people who cashed in our stocks at a loss. We the people are the ones now who will determine which of these corporations and or banks will survive or fail. Our government alone can not prop them up forever and if we do not buy those stocks or put our money back into the banks then the will disappear along with their private jets.
We could barter actual items or labor, which do have value in order to get what we need to survive what is coming and surprisingly after the dust settles we may be better for it in many many ways. After all we would have gotten rid of all the non productive freeloaders at the top who helped cause most of our planets problems and they will be forced to do more than bloviate to make their way, and no longer on the backs of others.
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Posted by: mmckinl on Feb 10, 2009 12:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All we need do is look at tomorrows annoucement by Tim Geithner, Secretary of the Treasury. The details are already in the press and the bailout amounts are quoted already as 1.5 trillion dollars more (WAPO), not the 350 billion dollars just authorized. Money down a rat hole ...
Indeed the consumer economy is dead ... the lifeblood of our economic model is no more and there is nothing to replace the consumer. We are headed for a Depression the likes of which makes the Great Depression look simple to solve. To add insult to injury the Washington pols run around like chickens with their heads cut off screaming tax cuts, tax cuts! That's what we did for Iraq to restart their economy after we invaded, cut their taxes. The result will be the same here.
It is just a matter of time before the financial system blows up now. It is not a question of 'if' but of when as Zombie banks devour what's left of the "Good Faith and Credit" of these United States of America. The 25 largest banks have over $13 trillion in losses. Obama has put a man in charge that will try to salvage what the greed and fraud of Wall Street hath wrought by pledging our future ... lock, stock and barrel, to no avail.
"Change you can believe in!" has become " Change that will change everything and not for the better."
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» RE: Yep, A Spot On Analysis .... excepting...
Posted by: gazooks
» RE: Yep, A Spot On Analysis .... excepting...
Posted by: gazooks
» It did have to be change we could see happening
Posted by: Beck
» And as Obama stays the Dubya course and brings us change for the worse,
Posted by: CarlaWaters
» He is not "staying the Dubya course", regardless of how often you repeat it like a mantra...
Posted by: mjabele
» Today's Libertarian Is ...
Posted by: iolanthe
» RE: Today's Libertarian Is Not What You Think...
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: Today's Libertarian Is Not What You Think...
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Don't be deluded, everyone is selfish, there is no such thing as selflessness
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» P.P.S.
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» Today's libertarian's are evil...
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Oftenwrong Hobohomo
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» Oftenwrong? Yet you prove my point!
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Oftenwrong? Yet you prove my point!
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: Oftenwrong? Yet you prove my point!
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» You are a hateful person.
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Go Read the Milgram article on the front page 2/12/2009
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: You are a hateful person.
Posted by: lightwing1
» RE: It did have to be change we could see happening
Posted by: undead
» It's not about WANTING Obama to fail
Posted by: truthlover
» RE: It's not about WANTING Obama to fail
Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
» RE: Nice.
Posted by: lightwing1
» RE: Nice.
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Nice.
Posted by: lightwing1
» RE: It did have to be change we could see happening
Posted by: JSurveyor
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Spot on Feb 10, 2009 1:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
we need to educate the working and petty-bourgeois classes about socialist economics, get our political parties to move on a post-industrial agenda (or start our own), and re-distribute land to a class of peasant farmers we'll also need to create.
as the crisis gets deeper, and food becomes scarce, cities are likely to become hives of unrest. even the best paths out look like a treacherous climb.
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» RE: pessimistic.
Posted by: CarlaWaters
» RE: pessimistic.
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» Spot on, Spot On!
Posted by: jaynesian
» RE: Spot on, Spot On!
Posted by: gazooks
Comments are closed-
Posted by: georgiaorwell on Feb 10, 2009 1:41 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You're so right about your points. The biggest difficulty is the size geographically of the US. Maybe if we split off into regions.....
So many people have given great ideas about mass transit, sustainable energy sources, environmental clean-up, etc., but our elected officials aren't listening - at all. I wonder what it would be like if our Congress ever, ever did anything good for our people.
No, instead, we're too busy being the world's policeman or aggressors and fighting for causes in Africa and rest of the Middle East. If people like Bill Gates would spend a third of his time helping hungry, uneducated Americans rather than Africans, I would be actually impressed. I know these third world countries need help, but let the Europeans who colonized them help these countries.
End NAFTA now.
Single payer or free health care for all.
Alternative energy through mass transit.
Stop occupying countries with our military and starting wars everywhere.
Help Americans who need help.
Ed loan forgiveness.
Establish a parliamentary democracy.
If not, abide by our constitution for a change.
Begin a new party with real progressives for REAL change in the reforms you so accurately described.
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» RE: Bilderberg's running the show
Posted by: richholland
» RE: Bilderberg's running the show
Posted by: georgiaorwell
» RE: Bilderberg's running the show
Posted by: richholland
» RE: Bilderberg's running the show
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Bilderberg's running the show
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: No, no, no! Your wrong! It's the Illuminati!
Posted by: sausage
» RE: " Begin a new party with real progressives for REAL change"
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: " Begin a new party with real progressives for REAL change"
Posted by: DaBear
» Correct, the Democrats and Republicans are heavily subsidized while others are not.
Posted by: CarlaWaters
» RE: " Begin a new party with real progressives for REAL change"
Posted by: HoboHomo
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Animal on Feb 10, 2009 2:05 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Correctional officers
Eviction officers
Soldiers/sailors/Marines/airmen
Police
Private security forces(including Blackwater)
Gravediggers- if my predictions about what's coming for America are anywhere near correct, there'll be no shortage of work in digging graves.
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» not gravediggers
Posted by: socialpsych
» RE: not gravediggers
Posted by: Shehova
» RE: not gravediggers
Posted by: iolanthe
» these events take us in some dark directions
Posted by: HoboHomo
» Soylent Green
Posted by: HoboHomo
» Crematoria? No
Posted by: truthlover
» crematorium
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Growth industry jobs in the next decade....
Posted by: Hiroak
» You Forgot: "Neighborhood Potato Farmers"
Posted by: iolanthe
» RE: You Forgot: "Neighborhood Potato Farmers"
Posted by: DaBear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: 911FalseFlag on Feb 10, 2009 3:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
“I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the civilized world. No longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men.”
Go to www.911insidejob.net to read entire article
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» RE: Federal Reserve Bank is purposely destroying America
Posted by: 16180
» RE: Federal Reserve Bank is purposely destroying America
Posted by: gimmie shelter
» RE: Federal Reserve Bank is purposely destroying America
Posted by: using
» RE: The Fed is part of the problem but not the only problem or the major problem.
Posted by: HoboHomo
» there is much misquoted on this web site
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Federal Reserve Bank is purposely destroying America
Posted by: HoboHomo
Comments are closed-
Posted by: CarlaWaters on Feb 10, 2009 4:53 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
P.S.: The current stimulus bill is nothing more than more of the same. Too bad I have idiots at work who try to defend Obama by deluding themselves into believing that Obama threw the Republicans under the bus and that change is coming. I try to point out otherwise and that Obama has actually thrown his base voters under the bus while trying to kiss up to the Republicans and they don't listen. They'll even cover their ears, close their eyes, and sing a-la-la-la ! I guess trying to reason with them is like trying to reason with hardcore Repubs.
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» RE: Uh, no, people still guzzle around and nothing has really changed.
Posted by: richholland
» RE: Uh, no, people still guzzle around and nothing has really changed.
Posted by: CarlaWaters
» RE: Uh, no, people still guzzle around and nothing has really changed.
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Uh, no, people still guzzle around and nothing has really changed.
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» Typical rightwing denial mode just like the idiots in my office.
Posted by: CarlaWaters
» And to finish nailing you on your last rant.
Posted by: CarlaWaters
» RE: No, Carla, we are not idiots. We don't have hands in ears. WE are not singing.
Posted by: undead
» Bush tried that
Posted by: suprmark
» I normally don't believe in spanking but for Beck I'll make an exception !
Posted by: maxpayne
» Online business and political conferencing may be written off because bigshots enjoy travel perks.
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» This is why we need real representation, not the phony two party style that caters to these
Posted by: CarlaWaters
Comments are closed-
Posted by: BST on Feb 10, 2009 5:10 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those people who still believe that somehow we are going to come out of this in a year or so, using what is referred to by many as that "great American spirit" are either delusional, foolish, unaware or in denial.
This is said by a woman (me) who has worked and worked and worked for a lifetime in a career which was gratifying but did not pay Madoff billions. I am now 65 and picking up odd jobs (quickly disappearing) where I can.
I am -- a customary optimist -- completely demoralized about any association I once believed existed between personal industry (hard work) and planning, to a modicum of security. I keep a smiling face to the world because I think we cannot all go around grim and survive; however, my slim figure has an unsightly bread barrel around the middle, deposited there over the past two months by my own jitters.
There's nothing like carbs and starch to soothe the incredulity of life savings deccimated. It's my own personal bread line.
My work schedule over years got me up at 3 a.m. I did it with gratitude for work I loved, I did it to support family, I did it because my parents taught me responsibility and reliability.
I am now out of steam and can only watch with horror the succession of idiocy and lunacy over every modicum of "can-do" spirit that once guided me and my generation.
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» RE: The awful realizations....
Posted by: Beck
» RE: The awful realizations....
Posted by: CarlaWaters
» RE: The awful realizations....
Posted by: HoboHomo
» You're lucky on a lot of fronts.
Posted by: CarlaWaters
» RE: You're lucky on a lot of fronts.
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: The awful realizations....
Posted by: gimmie shelter
» RE: The awful realizations...more than meets the eye
Posted by: Animal
» you guys are talking like
Posted by: helenahanbasquet
» RE: you guys are talking like
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: The awful realizations...more than meets the eye
Posted by: chance garden
» RE: The awful realizations...more than meets the eye
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: The awful realizations....
Posted by: HoboHomo
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kegbot1 on Feb 10, 2009 5:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We may be passive now but there is no way in hell the American people won't go for their massive arsenal of private weapons and do whatever it takes to feed their families at some point. The reason Washington isn't telling the truth is that they are deathly afraid of just this scenario.
Kunstler often writes about his fear that a "cornpone Hitler" will arise from the American hinterlands and that may very well be what happens at some point. So be careful in the future about choosing sides in the coming catastrophe.
TO BST: I deeply feel for your situation. I'm 46 and watching my last dream - owning an independent used books store, die a slow death. I may not be able to get back in private industry (my resume, with all my jobs, now works against me as my age) and even the Federal government, which I spent 10 years working for, is apparently closing the doors on me because my experience is now 'too old.'
What are people like us supposed to do? How are we supposed to find shelter and feed ourselves our our families?
It is this growing anger I am sensing, the monster in the American closet, that no one really wants to talk about - what happens when 50-75-100 million Americans or more have nothing left to lose?
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» what happens when 50-75-100 million Americans or more have nothing left to lose?
Posted by: SteveO
» RE: what happens when 100 million Americans or more have nothing left to lose? Real Change, finally
Posted by: DCostello2
» RE: what happens when 100 million Americans or more have nothing left to lose? Real Change, finally
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: what happens when 100 million Americans or more have nothing left to lose? Real Change, finally
Posted by: chance garden
» RE: what happens when 100 million Americans or more have nothing left to lose? Real Change, finally
Posted by: villager1
» RE: what happens when 100 million Americans or more have nothing left to lose? Real Change, finally
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: what happens when 100 million Americans or more have nothing left to lose? Real Change, finally
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: what happens when 100 million Americans or more have nothing left to lose? Real Change, finally
Posted by: HoboHomo
» 75 million angry, fanatical, desperate people should be enough to dominate the other 225 million.
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» RE: what happens when 100 million Americans or more have nothing left to lose? Real Change, finally
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: what happens when 50-75-100 million Americans or more have nothing left to lose?
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Kunstler occasionally pulls his punches about one thing
Posted by: gimmie shelter
» RE: Kunstler occasionally pulls his punches about one thing
Posted by: DaBear
» Interesting. You and I have similar backgrounds
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: Check out Dmitry Orlov's 5 stages of collapse
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Interesting. You and I have similar backgrounds
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Kunstler occasionally pulls his punches about one thing
Posted by: HoboHomo
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mrcentrist on Feb 10, 2009 5:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: nslave the Wall Streeters
Posted by: Beck
» RE: nslave the Wall Streeters
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: nslave the Wall Streeters
Posted by: mrcentrist
» RE: nslave the Wall Streeters
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Enslave the Wall Streeters
Posted by: FREEDOM OF SPEECH
» RE: nslave the Wall Streeters
Posted by: CarlaWaters
» RE: nslave the Wall Streeters
Posted by: mrcentrist
» RE: nslave the Wall Streeters
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: nslave the Wall Streeters
Posted by: mrcentrist
» Hang the Wall Streeters
Posted by: Animal
» I just have to add, you'd need to enslave the women on Wall St. as well, along with
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Marlena on Feb 10, 2009 6:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: A return to a "simpler" America....
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» RE: A return to a "simpler" America....
Posted by: indirect quotes
» RE: A return to a "simpler" America....
Posted by: HoboHomo
» Let's secede from those who breed...
Posted by: HoboHomo
Comments are closed-
Posted by: FREEDOM OF SPEECH on Feb 10, 2009 7:05 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is inevitable in post-industrial economies: the mechanization of labor leads to rising unemployment...rising unemployment leads to even more social ennui and economic/political instability (such as we are now experiencing) as large amounts of people cannot healthily cope with all of the extra time they have. Nowadays and in to the future most jobs will be 'service sector' jobs (get used to it) because manufacturing and agriculture has become so mechanized and thus MANY fewer people are needed to manufacture or grow a surplus of goods.
Humans in the past were burdened by too much work, and now we modern humans are in many respects burdened by too little work. Many feel that there is simply "not enough to do" because everything is now manufactured so efficiently and quickly, whereas in the past life was one of extreme toil and hardship...this makes many humans in advanced industrial countries feel kind of like useless or guilty non-working lumps when in fact we are suffering from the effects our collective material success which has compounded over the past 100 years. The key is not to "work harder" but to "worker smarter." We should be basking in the glory of our amazing material successes as a species instead of wallowing in misery because the U.S. economy is maturing (some would say 'stagnating') and leveling out.
A major problem is that humans in the most 'advanced' industrialized countries have not been able to (socially) keep pace with the rate which extremely rapid technological progress has altered the once entirely rural human civilization. The overwhelming nature of our technological and material progress in the last two centuries has left many humans bewildered...now is the time to begin to pick up the pieces and search for answers to the ennui and social malaise which too-rapid industrialization has wrought. A social revolution must now begin to catch up with the technological revolution.
The current crisis is one of social adjustment to life in a post-industrial society where we all have much more time on our hands due to, as I said, the large-scale mechanization of human labor (I repeat this because too many people just do not get how important a fact this is). We need positive ways to channel all of our energy which was once expended merely trying to survive in a difficult world - positive ways do not include unhealthy overeating, becoming a TV zombie, doing drugs, etc etc...we need to find ways to socially reconnect with our fellow humans, to re-establish the sociability inherent to humanity which has declined so much due to the hypermaterialistic rat-race we brought upon ourselves in the past couple of centuries of technoindustrial progress.
There is obviously much more work to be done, but even MORE technology likely isn't the answer at this point. We need to sit back and take stock of what we have built so far and figure out ways to socially, politically, and economically adjust to the rapid and far-reaching technological changes which have swept the world in the past couple centuries. A new era is beginning in America and perhaps the entire post-industrial world.
There will be no famines in America unless they are deliberately planned or caused, so you irrational doomsayers here need to stop talking famine - we and nearly every other industrialized country in the world produces a surplus of food, and farmers are paid to NOT grow as much food in some areas so that food prices remain stable. Also, we have a massive oversupply of housing, clothing, autos, and the other necessities of human life.
There is no need to panic: we humans are amazingly resilient and intelligent - we will make it through the current crisis.
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» Losing jobs: not due to mechanization.
Posted by: Ignatz deFyre
» RE: Losing jobs: not due to mechanization.
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
» RE: Not collapse, but a leveling coupled with economic stagnation - we're entering a new era
Posted by: abstractedaway
» RE: Not collapse, but a leveling coupled with economic stagnation - we're entering a new era
Posted by: lightwing1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Spiritgirl on Feb 10, 2009 7:23 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Our Chinese bankers, will not continue to fund our rainbow chasing forever! Republicans and their Democratic cohorts want the government to step aside and let the free market take over, the problem with that logic is that the "free-markets" not only want to continue business as usual- but due to deregulation and no one minding the store we are currently in an economic melt-down! We have entered a new era, that means the days of conspicuous consumption are over! It may mean that if you have the ability to grow a few vegetables - do it, share with your neighbors - or better yet, barter for services! We as a nation do not have the time to wait for Washington to lead - because they don't want to see the CHANGE that must be made! If not now, when?
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Posted by: SlyGuy on Feb 10, 2009 7:24 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Brave new world?
Posted by: CarlaWaters
» RE: Brave new world?
Posted by: gimmie shelter
Comments are closed-
Posted by: gimmie shelter on Feb 10, 2009 7:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But as James points out this may be only a side act to the real show, the point at which we can no longer heat our houses, drive to the markets, manufacture alternative energy systems or get to D.C. to strangle the bums, because of a lack of oil.
Mass transit that is well thought out is the first hurdle to achieve and maybe while all that heavy equipment is in the area maybe the should also be used to clear some land for growing the food that each community will need.
Read the author's books to get a sense of where we are headed whether Washington admits it or not, there is only one conclusion to reach, the money spent in areas which do not address the needs of our country without oil is futile.
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Posted by: grumble-bum on Feb 10, 2009 7:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Kunstler is talented at teasing out the most dismal futures from our current economic, social & environmental realities. We should be grateful for his often crushing warnings, regardless of individual quibbles over specifics. Presented with such clear, understandable consequences to our delusional obsessions & trajectories, it's easy to lose hope entirely.
We shouldn't.
Kunstler deals in probabilities, but as active agents in our own destinies, we deal in potentialities. Our thinking should be focused more on what we can do, rather than what will be done to us. Armed with various worst-case scenarios, we can still choose whether to be paralyzed or galvanized.
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» Well put.
Posted by: freelyb
» RE: Probabilites Vs. Potentialities
Posted by: gimmie shelter
» What do u mean by the point of no return?
Posted by: freelyb
» Gimmie, You Miss My Point.
Posted by: grumble-bum
» RE: Gimmie, You Miss My Point.
Posted by: gimmie shelter
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mnstra on Feb 10, 2009 7:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No wonder people are reaching for their weapons..........You cant make the whole country accountable for the crimes of the few rich elite on Wall Street, We will not tolerate it..This anger is only the beginning of a groundswell of public rage, no wonder they are scared at the CAPITOL. Take a tip from the French reveloution
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» Muddying the waters seems like a good idea to me.
Posted by: freelyb
» RE: Can't arrest the bankers and such, they ALL supported O-blah-blah
Posted by: DCostello2
Comments are closed-
Posted by: freelyb on Feb 10, 2009 8:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Long term politicians really do live in a bubble. Of course, we all do, or we wouldn't have been so collectively oblivious to approach of all that is now upon us. But in light of its voluntary position as decision maker for our country, Washington's culture is incredibly insulated -- intellectually and emotionally -- from what is really going on. The long-term political elite are experienced in political maneuvering and little else. They believe that their livelihood depends upon holding this priority, and the public has not effectively convinced them otherwise.
Very few of our policymakers have or seek much in-depth academic knowledge to inform the vital decisions they make on our behalf. How many of our representatives have specific academic backgrounds or even ongoing serious and unbiased interest in economics, finance, history, education, military science, psychology, sociology, spirituality and/or religion? Not many. "Experts" on the Wall Street scene are the most highly specialized reps that we have.
Unfortunately, there are even more profound changes that will be required of us in the very near future. And we will need new levels of expertise from our leadership. Soon we will have to deal with the true imminence of global warming. At present, this is a still just a theoretical future probability in the minds of most. Another painful paradigm shift will occur as we come to grips with the need for population control. Each shift will take us through the same painful process of sacrificing what we think of as our individual rights on behalf of the greater good. So be it.
The potential good news is that this may be a real catalyst for people to separate the true from the false in order to find real meaning. Maybe humanity will finally be compelled to identify and live its highest potential. It's scary, but what choice do we have? I know many people who've already begun this process of stripping away the non-essential. Most of them, including me and mine, become happier by the day. What we are finding in each other and in our world is much more precious than what we are giving up.
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Posted by: underledge on Feb 10, 2009 8:05 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How many times have we been told – we have evolved into a Service Economy – . We will all make our living by cutting each others hair or something along that line. It is actually quite depressing and scary think what will be coming down the pike in the not too distant future. We can’t or refuse to believe that our lifestyles are unsustainable. The worst part is there are few if any alternatives available for most of us. When the cookie crumbles all you have left is crumbs and once they are gone, you have nothing.
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» When the cookie crumbles, plant a garden.
Posted by: freelyb
» RE: When the cookie crumbles, plant a garden.
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: When the cookie crumbles, plant a garden.
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
Comments are closed-
Posted by: monkeywrench on Feb 10, 2009 8:12 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: gimmie shelter on Feb 10, 2009 8:19 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
FOR BUYERS AND SELLERS IN 2009
Despite the poor economy that most of us are dealing with today, the megayacht industry will have its largest EVER year in 2009 with over 1,000 megayachts over 80' in length on order. The largest increase is in orders for boats in the 150-200' size range. All told, the orders would stretch 24 miles if laid end to end. It does seem a trifle - what's the word - 'bizarre' that there is a segment of the world's population that is doing so well.
For the rest of us who are engaged in the boating industry whether we are sellers, buyers, brokers, lenders or dealers the recreational boating market has declined 30% in the past three years. In a nutshell this means brokerage houses are more than ever educating their customers about the importance of real time values, dealers will be holding the line on floor plans and looking for new value added customer services, marine lenders are going to require higher credit scores and debt-to-income factors will come into play more than in the past. For sellers it means coming to grips with today's boat values. For buyers, it is a heyday.
This is real and why do you suppose mega yachts sales would be going up? This is how the masters of the universe are reacting to all the problems we face. Maybe it's so they can go off shore in luxury when the sh.. hits the fan.
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» We have maps...
Posted by: freelyb
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Posted by: lulugeez on Feb 10, 2009 8:23 AM
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If we listen to the hype coming from the real estate developers, the answer to our sprawled out living patterns is to now build up. Vertical sprawl is the new gambit of real estate speculators and the politicians they own in perfectly livable towns like mine (Ann Arbor). The imperative is now "Attention, every one to now live in a tower in a mega city". It is taken as gospel that the global flight from rural areas, from agrarian life is voluntary, that every one really wants to live on an island in the Hudson because it is more fun.
Land use is largely driven by governmental policy. Our cities became supersized (in the case of NY, Paris, LA) and emptied (Detroit) through the agency of governmental spending policies. Governments have enabled the concentration of jobs, power in some locations at the expense of others.
Now, in the last gasp of real estate speculation, developers are grabbing every subsidy they can to uglify the cityscapes of smaller town, eliminate economic diversity and void democratic process.
What are the assumptions here? That everyone living in the "Polo Fields" or "Antique Forest" will now abandon their poorly built homes to go live in poorly built high rises in the "cool cities" of the heartland? Even if this were economically possible, would it be the best outcome?
Another, more sustainable solution is to plop down some commercial infratrtucture in walking distance from these neighborhoods, get public transit built and spread out the placement of work. That's right, I actually said spread--decentralize--the workplace around. There is no reason why, in my county all the money for economic stimulus that my state spends needs to go to Ann Arbor. Ypsilanti, Dexter, Chelsea, Saline should also get funds for retrofitting. Why should everyone in the county get on the bus or choochoo to work in my town?
We're still in the thrall of bigger is better. We have plenty of small farms that need markets for their produce, small manufacturers who could do ok with regional sales. But our state spends money in search of the next BIG thing. What about starting up an accordian factory (Detroit used to have five Accordian manufacturers) or ceramics factories (we've lost all these too). Instead we're looking for Bio-tech, life science companies to come here from elsewhere, ignorant of the fact that these industries are already well established elsewhere.
Meanwhile start-up bio/med tech companies with perfectly good products get skipped for state funding while whirlpool gets 120 million in state aid to build a golf community, sited in part on a public park.
In the process of biggifying small towns, democracy must go. Citizens become nymbys, obstacles to progress. Leeds certification and Affordable housing have become the wedges used to cut through opposition to speculative, tax supported development.
One week a city council will use "walkability" as a justification for a high rise. The next week economic realities will dictate the necessity of $60 million for an underground parking structure. The demolition of older housing stock gets spun into an effort to increase affordability, but there is no example of allowing speculative development booms anywhere in the world providing more lower and middle class housing opportunities. Instead the middle disapears and the lower gets pushed to the fringes.
Current policies support a malignancy that is metastasizing while the host (that's us)is dying.
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Posted by: sausage on Feb 10, 2009 8:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I mean he kind of beats around the bush but nowhere in his essay do I read anything like: "Did you notice, folks, that the CEOs of all the failed banks, all the failed insurance companies that received TARP funds...all them sonsuvbitches have MBAs!" In my opinion, the MBA is the worst degree program ever invented in the history of higher education.
I'd just like one of you MBA s.o.b.s to defend your degree right here, right now. How can you defend the worst group-think failure in human history since the invention of monotheistic religion?
No conspiracy is needed! All the top MBA *ssholes--regardless if they, like our last president, received their degree from Harvard School of Business, University of Chicago or online--think alike!
Obama's big mistake right now is that he, a product of the Ivy League, undergrad study at Columbia, law degree from Harvard, accepts the convention wisdom that those who got us into this mess, because of their "education" and "experience," can get us out. Sorry, I don't think so. The country is going to have to lean on economists to get us out of this mess, preferably guys like Dean Baker, Paul Krugman, James K. Galbraith and Ravi Batra. But for Krist's sake keep the MBAs the hell away from any economic stimulus bills and keep them the hell away from the Halls of Congress. Do not let any s.o.b. with an MBA degree have any input on how to turn the economy around!
My only other criticism of Kunstler's essay is that he is as much a part of the problem as any MBA, for he seems to be part of what I call "the ideologically pure left". I mean, really J.H., you're right. But the nation, our culture, our civilization, is at point "A," not a very good place at this particular moment. But how do we get to point "C" without going through point "B" first? How do we even get to point "C" without a few foul-ups along the way? I mean, until something better comes along we have to make do with what we have, don't we?
I'll conclude by saying that in my opinion the ideologically pure left--and interesting, isn't it, that most of the leading lights of this group are rather well-off compared to the rest of us--has been as destructive force in American politics as the forces of reaction.
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» Education as programming
Posted by: Ignatz deFyre
» RE: Kunstler's analysis fails to address who got us into this mess
Posted by: mnstra
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Posted by: gimmie shelter on Feb 10, 2009 8:55 AM
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» RE: gimmie shelter
Posted by: mnstra
» NOT Old News
Posted by: JayHaden
» RE: NOT Old News
Posted by: HoboHomo
» Documentary "Taken For a Ride"
Posted by: jackyD
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Posted by: eaanders on Feb 10, 2009 9:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All the other developed countries in the world discovered this long ago, because they have a higher percentage of smart people who aren't as taken in by religion and ideology. They realized that the only way to keep the rich from starving the poor and enslaving the near poor was to have universal health care, mandated vacation time, and retirement and unemployment benefits for everyone. The dumb people in this country don't read and they don't travel, so they never learn how people in other countries prosper. Their main focus is religion and faux patriotism. They've been taught to love guns and war and suffer their fate. They think if they believe the US is the best country in the world, it is. But, they're deluded.
All the rich have to do is make sure these dummies survive so they won't cause trouble. But, their greed may have overcome their judgment this time around. Without the stimulus we will probably end up like Iceland, with a sauce pan revolution or worse. It serves the dummies right. So let them stew in their juices for a while until they learn the hard way that pretending to be rich when you're not doesn't work. They should all be forced to watch Sicko so they can learn how people live and prosper in other developed countries. Maybe then they'll stop believing all the propaganda fed to them by the rich and their clergy.
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» RE: It's the voters, stupid
Posted by: Human Being
» RE: It's the voters, stupid
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: It's the voters, stupid
Posted by: HoboHomo
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Posted by: undead on Feb 10, 2009 9:37 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/02/10
"Fixing the Economy: Of Fences and Futures"
Mr. Obama is doing the same program as Mr. Bush. He has hired many of the same economic morons who brought us to this abyss. Summers, Rubin, Geitner. I know the first two are Clinton boys.
It is amazing you just will not see the facts.
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» RE: Beck the Obamabot DINO troll gets migraine reading the truth.
Posted by: wrinklemomma
» RE: Beck the Obamabot DINO troll gets migraine reading the truth.
Posted by: DaBear
» Thank you, wrinklemomma
Posted by: Karina
» RE: Thank you, wrinklemomma
Posted by: maxpayne
» Where did Beck call anyone a "fat lazy pigshit"? I must have missed that.
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Where did Beck call anyone a "fat lazy pigshit"? I must have missed that.
Posted by: CarlaWaters
» I didn't say exactly that. I was referring to Beck doing her name-calling and then accusing others.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Thank you, wrinklemomma
Posted by: wrinklemomma
» I didn't say that
Posted by: Karina
» RE: Thank you, wrinklemomma
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Beck the Obamabot DINO troll gets migraine reading the truth.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Be careful of jumping the snark of vulgarisms in discourse.
Posted by: helenahanbasquet
» RE: Beck, read this.
Posted by: WYGunston
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Posted by: Dboy on Feb 10, 2009 11:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
dboy
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» RE: JHK
Posted by: HoboHomo
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Posted by: maxpayne on Feb 10, 2009 1:10 PM
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Besides, why not improve technologies to reduce driving and potholes altogether?
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» RE: Jobs Can Be Available.
Posted by: HoboHomo
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Posted by: papatooth on Feb 10, 2009 2:28 PM
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Posted by: madmax427 on Feb 10, 2009 2:28 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
With all the intelligent People and Those THINKING They are intelligent posting here about Who did what, Who is responsible for that, "I told You so" ( The BLAME Game ), I am asking Myself "WHEN are We going to realize BLAMING someone is NOT Helping ANYONE"?
Are We so screwed the only thing We can do is TALK about Who's Fault it is? Are We going to wait until We are Starving to figure out We need to DO something?! Like come up with a WORKABLE Plan!
Personally, Running around screaming "We've All Gonna Die!" or "They did it to Us" (pick Your side!) falls a little SHORT of a SOLUTION!
JMHO
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» RE: Just out of Curiosity, When do You
Posted by: drugs
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Posted by: gimmie shelter on Feb 10, 2009 2:37 PM
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Posted by: yellow on Feb 10, 2009 2:56 PM
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Government taxing and spending is needed to provide an exogenous stimulus to restart employment and growth. Late capitalism, due to growing economic inequality among other causes, is inherently stagnant in its later, more mature phases and needs constant external stimulus to sustain itself.
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Posted by: wormfarmer on Feb 10, 2009 3:50 PM
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» RE: The trait
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: The trait
Posted by: wormfarmer
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Posted by: drugs on Feb 10, 2009 3:55 PM
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Posted by: Alenna on Feb 10, 2009 4:13 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Most Americans are still in denial
Posted by: chance garden
» RE: Most Americans are still in denial
Posted by: wrinklemomma
» RE: Most Americans are still in denial
Posted by: chance garden
» RE: Most Americans are still in denial
Posted by: HoboHomo
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Posted by: Scalpel on Feb 10, 2009 7:06 PM
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Posted by: standingwave on Feb 10, 2009 8:14 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...perhaps debt forgiveness a la Solon is the energizer we need to pull our species out of this predicament - jubilation instead of resignation
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» RE: the way out - garden gaia into eden
Posted by: chance garden
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Posted by: WYGunston on Feb 10, 2009 10:21 PM
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Posted by: Gqueval on Feb 11, 2009 6:42 AM
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One Billion for each electoral vote to be dispersed to municipalities (not the state governments) as follows:
First billion to every state capitol
Second billion to the most populous city
Third to the next most populous city
Etc.
Rules
No city would get more than one Billion.
The funds are to be used for construction and infrastructure projects that have already begun but are not yet complete. At least half should go to private construction companies and less than half to municipal entities that do regular infrastructure maintenance.
If the city owes money for projects, it must deposit the amount it owes into a state bank and may access those funds as the debt is reduced.
The banks will use these funds to improve their balance sheets and lending to companies within the state.
Gene Queval
Hamilton, NJ
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Posted by: Menopausal Mick on Feb 11, 2009 6:49 AM
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Americans work hard at their jobs, but with some notable exceptions, it isn't exactly back-breaking, sweat running down your face, grit- your- teeth- and- just- do- it physical labor.
This article speaks to what needs to happen for this country to survive a transitional phase like the one we now face. I doubt that the majority of Americans will learn the skills they need or be willing to do the actual hard work that a "return to the land" type of lifestyle requires.
The masses couldn't be bothered to look up when our country was being hijacked. They ignored an illegal and unjust war and torture and signing statements and the systematic destruction of the underpinnings of constitutional government. They allowed any and every action as long as they were able to maintain their status quo soccer mom/nascar dad consumerist lifestyle.
I think that the expectation that a majority of Americans would be willing to change the way that they live before circumstances make the needed changes for them is a bit naieve.
This is a change that government can't force. People have to want it for themselves. So far, I can't see that they do.
Recently, I offered to GIVE a family member an acre of our land and half the food we raise if they would retire on the land and help us with the gardens. He said that he doesn't want that much land because he'd just have to mow it.
That's how different the mindsets are. All he could see is a lawn requiring care. We don't have "lawns" on this farm. We have grassy areas that we harvest for chicken and rabbit feed. And we leave a good portion of the land untouched and in its natural state. Manicured lawns are for the suburbs and a different way of life. Most city folks don't "get it" and if they do get it, they don't want it.
For more localized food production we would need what?? about a twenty percent increase in small local farms near major urban areas? About a thirty percent move to rural rather than suburban life? That assumes one could find that many people willing to do the work and that assumes that they'd be able to make their major incomes from farming efforts.
Do you really think that this will happen?
Menopausal Mick
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» I'LL SEE YOUR ACRE AND RAISE YOU A GARDEN
Posted by: Dennis St. John
» RE: I'LL SEE YOUR ACRE AND RAISE YOU A GARDEN
Posted by: Menopausal Mick
» gimmie shelter
Posted by: gimmie shelter
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Posted by: reelman on Feb 11, 2009 8:46 AM
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note this is ALL borrowed money...on YOUR VISA and your kids too
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Posted by: Dennis St. John on Feb 11, 2009 8:48 AM
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In Europe, one can take trains from rural towns to major cities to other countries for affordable fees. A Eurail pass for $450 is good for a year of unlimited travel. You can't travel by car for $450 per year.
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» money is debt/
Posted by: wleming
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Posted by: reelman on Feb 12, 2009 6:54 AM
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There will be 4 main excuses given by the secular socialist Party:
1…It was not enough $$$
2…It was too late
3…It takes more time than we thought
4…We inherited a worse situation than we thought
(barometers: the DOW and your 401k…despite the borrowed trillion)
***Historically, gov-meant meddling always lengthens recessions***
http://conservablogs.com/theconservativecrawfish/
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Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com on Feb 12, 2009 11:23 AM
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You assume I am a greedy asshole because I think it is immoral to fine and imprison people for not paying income taxes that redistribute wealth.
The truth is I give to charity every month. I am currently unemployed but I do it anyway.
You don't get it and never will because you are so dependent on the handouts of others. So dependent that you would fine and imprison those who refuse to help.
And I am the immoral SOB? Get help, a therapist really.
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Posted by: reelman on Feb 12, 2009 11:50 AM
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- Grover Norquist, president, Americans for Tax Reform, in response to B.O.'s national address Monday night
=====
There will be 4 main excuses given by the secular socialist Party:
1…It was not enough $$$
2…It was too late
3…It takes more time than we thought
4…We inherited a worse situation than we thought
(barometers: the DOW and your 401k…despite the borrowed trillion)
—>Feb 12, 6:59 AM (ET)
By PAN PYLAS, LONDON (AP) - World stock markets fell Thursday amid pessimism about the Obama administration's plans to fix the U.S. banking system and restore the overall health of the world's largest economy.
***Historically, gov-meant meddling always lengthens recessions***
http://conservablogs.com/theconservativecrawfish/
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Posted by: realwealth on Feb 13, 2009 11:36 AM
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As millions in the US and billions throughout the globe become unemployed unless we create a new economy built on something more than consumption, there will be no way to re-employ all these people. The goods new is—we can create a Full Spectrum Economy—a six sector economy that measures and monetizes all the work activities necessary for us to sustain life.
Our current economy is based on the GDP measurement system of 3 sectors—markets, government and illegal activities. These are the work activities we consider economically valuable and the only place to build wealth as it is currently defined. But these three sectors include only a small portion of the economic activities that actually enable our lives to function.
The current 3 sector economy excludes 3 other sectors that produce enormous amounts of vital work. These three sectors are the household enterprises that build the human infrastructure for our society, volunteer service that supports our caring needs and natural/environment sector on which we’re dependent for life. Without these three, the current 3 sector economy would not be able to function, yet, for most of us, they are completely invisible simply because we have not measured, monetized and valued them through economic indicators. .
Because of the GDP measurement system’s biases, we are forced to rely on the markets to be the sole creator of financial wealth. A Full Spectrum Economy enables us to address the limitations of the 3 sector economy’s restrictive measurement system. Adding these three missing sectors provides many new ways for all of us to be working, contributing and building wealth. It results in a system that releases the enormous pressure on the markets to be the sole creators of wealth. It also allows us to reduce the need for government to be the only balance to the markets. Now the household, volunteer and natural environment sectors play a part and all sectors benefit (and if all goes well, the illegal sector will be reduced too!)
The small entrepreneur holds the key to our future but at the same time, being an entrepreneur will not be limited strictly to the market sector. In a Full Spectrum Economy, all 5 sectors hold possibilities for work (assuming you don’t want to go into the illegal sector). In each of these sectors you provide valuable work for building a strong, vibrant economy and you generate wealth—both financial and social that enables the world to function effectively.
The household enterprise—caring for children and elderly through a “professionally trained, well-paid home service corps” could provide 17-34 million jobs in the next economy. The natural sector—working with the environment to launch new businesses that utilize solar, wind, closed loop production systems could bring 5 million new jobs as we seek to transform our current homes, offices, transportation systems, and bring consumables in-line with an earth friendly, green jobs sector. And the volunteer service sector could engage millions of young and older citizens working in community support activities while earning social service credits that could be traded in for caring in one’s senior years or through a crisis time in one’s life. The ability to bank your volunteer efforts into a national service registry and redeem it for caring support in time of need builds the wealth of a social safety net based on your effort and responsibility throughout your entire life.
To learn more: Ann@partnershipway.org A Full Spectrum Economy is based on the work by Riane Eisler in Real Wealth of Nations…creating a Caring economics.
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Posted by: gimmie shelter on Feb 21, 2009 8:11 AM
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The reason the banks have now begun to fail so badly is really do not so much to their incompetence anymore but rather to we the people. It was we the people who took much of our supposed wealth out from the banks and it was we the people who cashed in our stocks at a loss. We the people are the ones now who will determine which of these corporations and or banks will survive or fail. Our government alone can not prop them up forever and if we do not buy those stocks or put our money back into the banks then the will disappear along with their private jets.
We could barter actual items or labor, which do have value in order to get what we need to survive what is coming and surprisingly after the dust settles we may be better for it in many many ways. After all we would have gotten rid of all the non productive freeloaders at the top who helped cause most of our planets problems and they will be forced to do more than bloviate to make their way, and no longer on the backs of others.
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Tax the Corporations and the Rich or Take Draconian Cuts -- the Decision Is Ours
Fury at Wall St. Banks Fuels Public Action for Move Your Money Campaign
Why Congress Wants You to Shun Your Local Bookstore and Shop at Amazon Instead




