COMMENTS: 238
Was the 'Credit Crunch' a Myth Used to Sell a Trillion-Dollar Scam?
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There is something approaching a consensus that the Paulson Plan -- also known as the Troubled Asset Relief Program, or TARP -- was a boondoggle of an intervention that's flailed from one approach to the next, with little oversight and less effect on the financial meltdown.
But perhaps even more troubling than the ad hoc nature of its implementation is the suspicion that has recently emerged that TARP -- hundreds of billions of dollars worth so far -- was sold to Congress and the public based on a Big Lie.
President George W. Bush, fabulist-in-chief, articulated the rationale for the program in that trademark way of his -- as if addressing a nation of slow-witted 12-year-olds -- on Sept. 24: "Major financial institutions have teetered on the edge of collapse ... [and] began holding onto their money, and lending dried up, and the gears of the American financial system began grinding to a halt." Bush said that if Congress didn't give Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson the trillion dollars (give or take) for which he was asking, the results would be disastrous: "Even if you have good credit history, it would be more difficult for you to get the loans you need to buy a car or send your children to college. And ultimately, our country could experience a long and painful recession."
For the most part, the press has continued to echo Bush's central assertion that there's a "credit crunch" preventing even qualified borrowers -- that's the key point -- from getting loans, and it's now part of the conventional wisdom.
But a number of economists are questionioning the factual basis of the credit crunch narrative. Columnist David Sirota recently looked at those claims and concluded that Americans "had been punk'd" -- that "the major claims about a credit crisis that justified Congress cutting a trillion-dollar blank check to Wall Street were demonstrably false," and the threat of a systemic banking crash was used by the Bush administration to overcome popular resistance to the "bailout."
It's a reasonable conclusion; this is an administration that used the threat of thousands of al-Qaida sleeper cells in the United States to sell Congress on the Patriot Act, the specter of mushroom clouds rising over American cities to push through the Iraq war resolution and the supposedly imminent crash of the Social Security system to push for privatizing Americans' retirement savings.
But the question comes down to what they knew and when they knew it. The analyses that suggest the whole credit crunch narrative is false are based on data that lagged behind the numbers that policymakers had available, in real time, back in September. So the question -- probably unanswerable at this point -- comes down to whether or not they looked at the situation and in good faith believed that pumping hundreds of billions of dollars into the banking system would contain the damage and save an economy teetering on the brink of collapse.
What Else Could Be Happening?
Of course, no one disputes the fact that as the economy has tanked, the number of new loans being issued to American families and businesses has plummeted. But is because credit has dried up for qualified borrowers?
Economist Dean Baker doesn't think so. He explains the situation in simple terms: The media, he argues, "are blaming the economic collapse on a 'credit crunch' instead of the more obvious problem that consumers just lost $6 trillion of housing wealth and another $8 trillion of stock wealth." It's a commonsense argument: much of the economic growth of the Bush era existed on paper only, built on the rise of a massive bubble in real estate values rather than growth in productive industries. When all that ephemeral wealth vaporized -- and with the economy shedding jobs like a dog with dermatitis -- consumers stopped buying, and businesses, anticipating a long slowdown, stopped seeking the loans that they might have otherwise tapped to expand their operations.
Whether good borrowers can't get credit from banks because the latter are hoarding cash or lending has stopped because of a drop-off in demand for new loans is not some wonky academic debate; it's of crucial significance. Because if lending to qualified parties has truly frozen, then even if the specific implementation of the Paulson Plan was deeply flawed, its broad approach -- "recapitalizing" banks in various ways, buying up some of their crappy paper and guaranteeing some of their transactions -- is fundamentally sound.
If, on the other hand, the primary problem is that people are broke and maxed out on debt, and firms aren't looking for money to expand, then the kind of massive stimulus package being considered by the Obama transition team and congressional Dems -- largely designed to stimulate demand from the bottom up, with public works projects, tax cuts for working families, aid to tapped-out state and municipal governments and new money for unemployment and food stamps -- is obviously the best approach to take.
Broadly speaking, these are the parameters of the debate in Washington, and that means that properly diagnosing the underlying problem is crucially important.
Is the Credit Crunch a Big Lie?
There's plenty of evidence that Baker's right. He points out that even though mortgage rates have plummeted, the number of applications for new loans has dropped to very low levels and argues it's "the most glaring refutation of the claim that people are unable to get credit." If creditworthy applicants were being denied loans by banks unable or unwilling to lend, Baker explains, "then the ratio of mortgage applications to home sales should be soaring" as qualified homebuyers apply to multiple banks for a loan. "Since there is no notable increase in this ratio, access to credit is obviously not an issue."
Again, this is common sense. Consumer spending drives about 70 percent of the U.S. economy, and in recent years, much of that spending was financed by people taking chunks of home equity out of their properties -- people might have been eating in fancy restaurants, but they were essentially eating their living rooms to do so.
That the American people don't have the appetite to go deeper into debt than they already are in order to make new purchases is hard to dispute. In November, consumer prices across the board fell at a record rate for the second month in a row. And even with mortgage rates plummeting, so many homeowners are "underwater" -- owing more on their homes than they're worth -- that they're unable to refinance because the equity isn't there. Paul Schuster, a vice president at Marketplace Home Mortgage, told the St. Paul Pioneer Press, "What I'm really concerned about is the job picture ... If (people) don't feel good about their jobs, rates aren't going to matter."
The National Federal of Independent Business' November survey of small-business owners found no evidence of a credit crunch to date, concluding that if "credit is going untapped, it's largely because company operators are not choosing to pursue the credit. It's not that companies can't get the extra money, it's that they don't want or need it because of the broader slowdown in economic activity."
The credit crunch narrative -- and the justification for creating Paulson's $700 billion TARP honeypot -- is built on three related assertions: 1) banks, fearing that they'll be unable to meet their own financial obligations, aren't lending money to one another; 2) they're also not lending to the public at large -- neither to firms nor individuals; and 3) businesses are further unable to raise money through ordinary channels because investors aren't eager to buy up corporate debt, including commercial paper issued by companies with decent balance sheets.
Economists at the Federal Reserve Bank of Minnesota's research department -- V.V. Chari and Patrick Kehoe of the University of Minnesota, and Northwestern University's Lawrence Christiano -- crunched the Fed's numbers in an examination of these bits of conventional wisdom (PDF), and concluded that all three claims are myths.
The researchers found that "interbank lending is healthy" and "bank credit has not declined during the financial crisis"; that they've seen "no evidence that the financial crisis has affected lending to non-financial businesses" and that "while commercial paper issued by financial institutions has declined, commercial paper issued by non-financial institutions is essentially unchanged during the financial crisis." The researchers called on lawmakers to "articulate the precise nature of the market failure they see, [and] to present hard evidence that differentiates their view of the data from other views."
That finding was backed up by a study issued by Celent Financial Services, a consulting firm, again using the Treasury Department's own data. According to a story on the report by Reuters, Celent's researchers concluded that the "data actually suggest world credit markets are functioning remarkably well." Rather than a widespread banking problem, Celent found that the rot was limited to "a few big, vocal banks and industries such as car manufacturing, which would be in difficulty anyway."
There are also some important caveats. Economists at the Boston Federal Reserve responded to the Minnesota Fed's research (PDF), arguing that the use of aggregate data doesn't fully reflect the dysfunction in specific subsectors of the economy, nor does it adequately reflect the decline in new loans.
It's also the case that single-cause explanations for complex crises usually fail to hit the mark. Banks, having fueled the housing bubble (and similar bubbles before that) with the creation of ever-shadier "exotic" securities, are probably erring on the side of caution in writing new loans. They're looking at their balance sheets as quarterly reports approach, and the number of foreign investment dollars coming into the U.S. has declined, meaning that some qualified firms may, indeed, have trouble raising cash in the near future.
Dean Baker, while arguing that "the main story is that people don't have money and therefore want to spend," acknowledged that "some banks are undoubtedly anticipating more write-offs from other loans going bad, so they will hang on to their capital now rather than make new loans." And, as Sirota notes, some of the institutions that are relatively healthy are reportedly holding cash in anticipation of picking up weaker banks on the cheap.
But one thing is clear: the economic crisis may have woken up Washington's political class when it hit the banks, but it remains a product of long-term imbalances in the economy, and the idea that it's primarily a pathology of the banking system in isolation is a misdiagnosis that, if uncorrected, can only result in a longer, deeper and more painful recession than might otherwise be the case.
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Posted by: mmckinl on Dec 29, 2008 12:55 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So why isn't everyone calling for a nationalization to begin auditing all the banks' books under an FDR Bank Holiday or Swedish Plan to sort out the solvent from the insolvent banks ? Tax Payers certainly deserve an accounting of the 9 trillion used so far for loans and guarantees.
Dean Baker, Joshua Holland, if you suspect a scam then where is your call for an audit of these Wall Street Banks ?
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» Obama's new Fed Chairman
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
» Pssst....over here, genius.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» RE: Obama's new Fed Chairman
Posted by: racetoinfinity
» Audit? We don' have to show you no focking audit!
Posted by: willymack
» RE: Audit? We don' have to show you no focking audit!
Posted by: Lauren
» Loans aren't the issue....
Posted by: Prophit
» 100 economists wrote to congress and hand delivered the letter....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: 100 economists wrote to congress and hand delivered the letter....
Posted by: racetoinfinity
» Audit the Banks? Start with the Pentagon and Rummy having "lost" a Couple of Trillion?
Posted by: common intelligence
» We should create an army of accountants.
Posted by: FeralCat
» RE: We should create an army of accountants.
Posted by: Lauren
» Where's the... Adult ?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Where's the... Adult ?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: not a good sign
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: not a good sign
Posted by: racetoinfinity
» RE: Where's the... Adult ?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Where's the... Adult ?
Posted by: StillStanding
» RE: Where's the... Adult ?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: A Scam By Wall Street Banks ? ....So Where's The Audit ?
Posted by: bluepilgrim
» The Bilderberg Group was behind this historic theft...
Posted by: TJColatrella
» RE: The Bilderberg Group was behind this historic theft...
Posted by: vspoils
» Actually what Josh should have called for was an audit of Treasury & the Fed reserve!
Posted by: Prophit
» Shut up moron
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Shut up moron
Posted by: racetoinfinity
» RE: Actually what Josh should have called for was an audit of Treasury & the Fed reserve!
Posted by: racetoinfinity
» RE: Where are the Investigative reporters?
Posted by: ATH
» OBTW: 2008 loan issuance falls 55 percent !
Posted by: mmckinl
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Dec 29, 2008 1:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Deflation would be nothing to fear as long as a safety net existed to protect the innocent in the downdraft. I personally have not been using my house as an ATM, have no debt and have lived within my means. This should be my chance to get a more affordable house, being liquid and all.
The conservative Democrats and almost all Republicans always run their mouths about a free market, but they never allow the free market to work. What they like is crony capitalism under the guise of a free market.
Sure, there is a lot of theft going on right now- the Shock Doctrine right before your eyes. Anyone doubt Ms Klein any longer?
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» What Republicans
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
» RE: What Republicans
Posted by: rickyvern
» keep running away from the ball
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
» RE: What Republicans
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: I think you know...
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: We Are Experiencing A Deflation
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Well, yes.
Posted by: oregoncharles
» Gold is going up
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: Gold is going up but how far up?
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Actually,
Posted by: oregoncharles
» There is no deflation
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: There is no deflation
Posted by: racetoinfinity
» Deflation??? You could have fooled me with the food prices....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Deflation??? YES
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Deflation??? Absolutely NOT!
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: Deflation???
Posted by: NoPCZone
» There can be a deflation even with money supply expansion if the money is not spent!!
Posted by: yellow
» Bunk from Yellow, as usual
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» CPI declines are not paper declines. Go to the store and get a real big discount.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: more deflation rubbish
Posted by: ReallyBearish
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Posted by: Sons on Dec 29, 2008 1:33 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I heard Limbaugh a month ago saying it was a scam! He even called up some banker and asked questions about difficulty getting a loan.
She said there was NOT a problem getting a loan.
Wow. Limbaugh!
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» Rush is Right (again)
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
» RE: ush is Right (2nd time) believe it or not. I believe it.
Posted by: Lauren
» Yeah, using martial law as the threat on the congress!
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Wow. Limbaugh did a little actual reporting
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Limbaugh Said It Was a Scam!
Posted by: Quannah
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Posted by: richard0a37 on Dec 29, 2008 1:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Indeed, the whole truth can be summed up in the letter I received from my bank the other day, and which reads:
Dear Sir
As you know, the Bank of England base rate was marginally reduced recently; consequently, some of our savings interest rates are also being reduced. See enclosed for details.
That's the reality on the ground. Petrol has also got cheaper, and VAT has been reduced on some goods.
Occasionally, things get marginally more expensive, or perhaps a bit cheaper, but always hovering around the affordable.
In other words, nothing has changed.
If the banks passed money around without telling anyone, we would be none the wiser.
But Bush et al wished to generate an air of panic and get everyone talking about the same subject. Just like 911 or when the first Bush invaded Iraq in 1990.
These are all experiments in psychological operations (psy-ops) to see how clever they are at manipulating events and public opinion.
Without doubt, we have evil non-human beings running the show. This so-called credit crisis took off at about the same time as an alien space craft was scheduled to be been seen hovering over the southern states of the USA, but of course that never materialised, possibly because I'd already broadcast the news to everyone and laid out a chilling scenario behind its motivation. (that's without the apostrophe by the way)
Plus, certain battalions of the Army are rumoured to be positioned to quell any public disturbances or riots. Is this still true, or is this just another piece of news meant to deceive us?
Life over the past 8 years has been like scenes out of Alice in Wonderful where nothing is quite what it seems.
A new film has just been released on Sky TV called Lions for Lambs starring Tom Cruise, Robert Redford and Meryl Streep. Tom Cruise has got his photograph taken with George W Bush and Condeleezza Rice. Cruise plays a senator who has masterminded a new strategy for hitting the Taleban.
This film, in my view, is just like real life US politics - full of phony emotion and phony motives, and at the end of it, you are left wondering what the hell it's all about. Perhaps someone could clarify the plot.
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» Bush Bush Bush
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» RE: Bush Bush Bush
Posted by: StillStanding
» RE: Bush Bush Bush
Posted by: Lauren
» A weird bias
Posted by: Perry Logan
» RE: Bush Bush Bush
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: We live in an age of illusion
Posted by: riondluz
» RE: We live in an age of illusion
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: We live in an age of illusion
Posted by: racetoinfinity
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Posted by: lorenbliss on Dec 29, 2008 1:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In a technique pioneered by the Sicilian Mafia but since adopted by all other criminal organizations, the mobsters use various ploys to buy into a legitimate business, gradually increase their control to the point of absolute authority, then like vampires methodically bleed the business dry of cash.
The remnants -- machinery too obsolete to sell, the buildings themselves -- are typically destroyed in an “accidental” fire just before the insurance expires. The proceeds of the entire scheme vanish into the criminal treasury -- typically some offshore bank account -- where they are used to finance further criminal enterprises, whether illegal (slavery, drugs etc.) or legal (the acquisition of more businesses to similarly plunder). It is a process so well known to New York City/New Jersey journalists, there have even been pools as to when such “lightning” would strike.
Bearing these facts in mind, note how the looting of government that began under Nixon and has continued ever since parallels how parasitic mobsters prey on businesses.
This is the context in which we must view the so-called “Bailout.”
Which brings several more questions into painfully sharp focus:
What is capitalism but the ultimate form of organized crime?
What if -- never mind it has absolutely no historical counterpart in criminal boldness and savagery -- the $700-billion bailout is the climax of an epic crime spree? What if -- in typical gangland fashion -- it is the final ransacking of our national wealth?
What if the nation the leadership of which Obama then inherits is no different from any other gangster-looted enterprise? What if it is but a hollow shell? What if the United States has truly been reduced to the economic equivalent of a vampire-withered corpse?
Is that perhaps the real reason the ruling class financed and otherwise arranged Obama’s victory? A final, ultimate slap-in-the-face to African-Americans?
And could there be some colossal criminal cabal of global corruption that might then profit if the United States were destroyed by an insurance fire of thermonuclear proportions?
I say again: what is capitalism but the ultimate form of organized crime?
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» RE: The 'Sting' Called Trickle Down
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» When has a poor person giving you a job?
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» RE: When has a poor person giving you a job?
Posted by: yellow
» RE: When has a poor person giving you a job?
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» RE: When has a teacher given you English lessons?
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» RE: Excellent, BushMafia Inc's Final Rape
Posted by: channing
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Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars on Dec 29, 2008 1:49 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
crickets
You can go on a President Bush diatribe all you want however his days are done after 01/20. Whom are you going to blame next, the Easter Bunny? Ya'll need to stop acting like Wall Street is only in the pockets of the GOP because that is far from so. I mean were is Wall Street located again, in one of the worlds most Liberal Cities, thats a far cry from Ames Iowa.
When Republicans screw up they dont get reelected however the likes of Barny Frank, Most of the CBC, Henry Waxman, and 9% Nancy Pelosi, keeps coming back to congress time after time then you wonder why things like this keep happening.
Check your own house Liberals
p.s. Madoff gets 3 years tops, suspended sentence with five years probation. George Sours got the condo in Belize all ready set up for the guy
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» Sorry, republicans do screw up and get reelected
Posted by: Beck
» RE: republicans do screw US to get their guy reelected, again.
Posted by: Lauren
» See: Barney Frank
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
» Blaming the Dems for this 8 year nightmare is the most idiotic thing one can do!!
Posted by: yellow
» Becuase God created the earth on 01/20/01
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
» "Where are these People?" asks Alternet's newest Troll. Take a break from trolling and look around!!
Posted by: yellow
» I live in the places you never care to visit
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
» And the Clinton Angle? How is HE to blame?
Posted by: yellow
» RE: And the Clinton Angle? Clinton repealed Glass Steagall
Posted by: DCostello2
» RE: And the Clinton Angle? Clinton repealed Glass Steagall
Posted by: yellow
» oh yeah, where is that?
Posted by: bizeeb
» RE: Becuase God created the earth on 01/20/01
Posted by: JSquercia
» Yellow is correct-- with one exception
Posted by: Curio
» RE: Yellow is correct-- with one exception
Posted by: yellow
» RE: I didn't,
Posted by: oregoncharles
» this whole Madoff thing...
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
» GOOD POINT! - "I mean were is Wall Street located again, in one of the worlds most Liberal Cities"
Posted by: FREE SPEECH
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Posted by: skoog5600 on Dec 29, 2008 2:37 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, the American populace are asleep as they rob the bank.
It's a long way to the bottom, but y'all are on your way!
Sayonara!!!
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» RE: Americans deserve what they get...
Posted by: herronsmith
» RE: Americans deserve what they get...
Posted by: hms2004
» Almost 50% of Americans?
Posted by: Cathyc
» I have to agree with you.
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» RE: Americans deserve what they get... angry are we?
Posted by: skoog5600
» RE: Americans deserve what they get...
Posted by: Purple Girl
» yarn
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
» Nice try...
Posted by: skoog5600
» RE: Americans deserve what they get...
Posted by: Skunkatthepicnic
» RE: I am very relieved...
Posted by: skoog5600
» nowhere to run.
Posted by: rafaeltoral
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Posted by: Suzon on Dec 29, 2008 3:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, that's the same government of Her Majesty's which protects the aristocrats and the quasi-aristocrats with subsidies.
We need a land tax, boys and girls, and a return of the luxury tax.
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» RE: "If it happens, it was planned" is a bit of an overstatement, but not in this instance...
Posted by: helenahanbasquet
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Posted by: socialpsych on Dec 29, 2008 3:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: disaster piracy
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: disaster piracy
Posted by: aussidawg
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Posted by: richholland on Dec 29, 2008 3:46 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For whom, where comes the money from????
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» RE: what is going on??
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: what is going on??
Posted by: G.Achin
» RE: what is going on??
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: what is going on??
Posted by: rickyvern
» RE: what is going on??
Posted by: daniel1982
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Posted by: cberkland on Dec 29, 2008 4:35 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: TARP intended to stop a panic
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: TARP intended to stop a panic
Posted by: cberkland
» RE: TARP intended to stop a panic
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: TARP intended to stop a panic
Posted by: cberkland
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Posted by: cbishopp on Dec 29, 2008 5:14 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The illusion of the credit crisis set the stage (as has been the modus operendi of the present administration)for panic when no threat existed outside of the dangers from those claiming to protect us.
The same people who are making money now will continue to do so as the dollar loses value in an attempt to pay back these trillion dollar loans.
But the yoke will always be there. The debt will never go away as long as the Fed controls the production of our currency. The value of this currency can only decline and the creation of new currencies (like the Euro) will consolidate power to an even greater extent. With the dollar having such long tentacles and the impact of the "financial crisis" being felt all over the world, it seems wise to have a variety of valuable currencies in play. Instead we will see the dollar devalue until we are forced to take on a new currency.
Talk about a credit squeeze!
Take back our currency, reduce taxes, create health care. We can run a whole economy on taking care of each other by killing the middleman.
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» RE: money stream
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: otto on Dec 29, 2008 5:26 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Otto .
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: 911FalseFlag on Dec 29, 2008 5:52 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Each one of these crises came into being through the same basic mechanism...the fraudulent over-valuing of financial assets by Wall Street - with a "wink and a nod" (and sometimes a lot more) from the White House and Congress. The fraudulently valued assets stimulate the economy, impart the illusion of health and then, inevitably, the fraud goes too far and the whole house of card comes painfully crashing back to earth.
The White House stood in the way of any state prosecuting federal banks and mortgage companies for predatory lending. They actually used a portion of the enabling act creating the US Comptroller of the Currency to preempt the regulation and prosecution of these banks for fraudulent loan activities. This is why Eliot Spitzer was politically assassinated. He wrote an editorial in the Washington Post three weeks before his assassination accusing the White House of preventing any state Attorney General from prosecuting these criminal activities. Of course, the mainstream media did not report the actual reason that this politician’s sexual indiscretions were reported so immediately and excessively.
The mainstream media never reported on Bush planting in the White House press corps a gay escort, Johnny Gannon. Gannon based on the Secret Service records of visits to the White House visited the White House over 200 times and stayed overnight at least two times.
Go to www.911insidejob.net for more articles and videos
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» RE: Third Trillion Dollar Bubble Created by FED
Posted by: Joshua Holland
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Posted by: willymack on Dec 29, 2008 5:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: It's only a paper moon
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: Nicnic on Dec 29, 2008 6:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh, I forgot to tell you to turn off the TV first. Eventually, you'll realize the real reason behind the digital broadcast movement and why it's so important for them to have everyone wired into the same channel. You've made it so easy for them to own your lives. You've offered yourselves up as livestock and reduced your significance to that of the very corn fed mutes you voraciously consume.
You are past the point of no return. You're going to have to fight your way out of it. But they're ready for you. Ready and waiting under the auspices of Homeland Security.
The only way to stop them is to stop the funding. Pass the Fair Tax, buy only locally grown food, engage in local or regional commerce and turn off the freaking TV, read a book, participate in life don't just watch it acted out, create your own community and revitalize your local newspaper.
Goodnight and good luck...
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» RE: Sleepers Awake
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» RE: Sleepers Awake
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» Tax revolt possible?
Posted by: FREE SPEECH
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Posted by: daniel1982 on Dec 29, 2008 6:06 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Before the first (and even the second) bailout vote you could not turn on the news and not have yourself be inundated with reporters telling us how we'll lose our jobs if the bill doesn't pass. It was also fast - too fast. At the very least, why couldn't congress wait a few weeks to assess the situation? Instead it rushed into this like a drunken sailor with bags of money. There was no need to do it so fast.
At the end of the day, this bailout is what sunk the Bush's legacy, not Iraq. There is no way future generations will look kindly on this.
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» RE: I think the bail out was a scam.
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: I think so..
Posted by: adlerman
» RE: I think so..
Posted by: adlerman
» And both parties supported the bailout and war and both sunk the president.
Posted by: maxpayne
» Investigate!
Posted by: rt968
Comments are closed-
Posted by: SevenStarHand on Dec 29, 2008 6:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Money is slavery by proxy, pure and simple.
If you don't want to listen to me, hear it on YouTube, from others...
Humanity still suffers from Stockholm syndrome and the obvious effects of addiction. It's like a junky thinking that the problem will be solved by finding a new dealer or a cleaner needle. In the end, you're still enriching those who control the drug source, from the shadows.
An enforced cold-turkey is coming quickly, and I suggest everyone start contemplating life, free of the drug (aka strong delusion) called money.
Even if you change the source of money, it'll still cause poverty, suffering, wars, and you'll remain in unending servitude, lifetime, after lifetime, after lifetime, in perpetuity. THe rich will still be rich, the greedy will still rise to the top of the system, and you'll still be duped slaves. Now is the time to break the cycle, while you have the ability to do so. What comes next will not be for your benefit, again.
I've already given you the opportunity and now unfolding global conditions are going to give you the incentive. I know I sound like a broken record sometimes, but junkies need intervention, before the poison kills them. Capiche?
Are you ready yet?
The Vatican and their secret society cohorts are your drug dealers. Why do you think they keep this such a closely guarded secret? They don't want the proxy-slaves to know who the master is. They know money is evil...
Peace and Wisdom...
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Posted by: vade_dyset on Dec 29, 2008 6:24 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: credit crunch?
Posted by: dockboy
» RE: credit crunch?: you misinterpret
Posted by: oregoncharles
Comments are closed-
Comments are closed-
Posted by: John Sawyer on Dec 29, 2008 6:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Who knows where the money goes?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Who knows where the money goes?
Posted by: John Sawyer
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Posted by: mnstra on Dec 29, 2008 7:05 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Dec 29, 2008 7:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Does anyone in their right mind actually believe we CAN do anything about whatever the INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE in government do?
We have no power over any of them due to all of those laws and instruments in place to protect the criminals such as cheney's handjob puppet, greenspan, ad infinitum.
How many can you name?
When any of us victims actually attempts to take action to protect ourselves, we are arrested, beaten, tazed, etc etc etc.
I'm older, have a small business and work mostly for cash so the bastards can't steal everything.
I have to get my snowblower going to clear the snow the goddamn city plowed back ONTO my property.
If I put it back in the street where THE CITY GOT IT TO PUT ON MY PROPERTY, the assholes will fine me.
Fuck 'em, I'll do it anyway.
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» RE: "WE SHOULD" AGAIN, "WE SHOULD"
Posted by: monkeywrench
» RE: "WE SHOULD" AGAIN, "WE SHOULD"
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Raising the GDP
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: "WE SHOULD" AGAIN, "WE SHOULD"
Posted by: John Sawyer
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sausage on Dec 29, 2008 7:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I remember reading somewhere, Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson pulled the $700 billion figure for the Troubled Asset Relief Program-- or TARP, as in throwing a tarp over John Q. Public's head so he can't see the robbery of the people's money taking place in broad day-light--literally out his arse!
With the enormous deficits Obama's proposed economic recovery package will generate, the diminution of promised middle-class tax cuts may be inevitable. This will leave the door open for Republican-paid bloviators to fan the flames of the old "tax-and-spend-liberal" canard to herd "Reagan" Democrats back into the fold.
If Congressional Democrats do not vigorously investigate--and Barnie Frank has scheduled hearings on this matter to begin in a couple of weeks--this matter and turn over evidence of criminality to the Justice Department, and if an Obama DOJ does not indict, prosecute and convict any and all bad actors, including Paulson, in this imbroglio of stock-swapping, mergers, bonuses and general incompetence and mismanagement, this "bailout," of the financial industry, paves the way for a Republican return to political power.
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» RE: Of course it's a scam
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: Of course it's a scam
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Of course it's a scam, it is not a tarp, it is a trap.
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Of course it's a scam
Posted by: Old Uncle Dave
» RE: Of course it's a scam
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sharonsylvie on Dec 29, 2008 8:12 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: loans are still available even to those who don't deserve any
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: djnoll on Dec 29, 2008 8:26 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Next, look at how McCain responded. It was a joke, and Palin was only fuel on the fire with her ignorance.
Then of course we have Reid and Pelosi, hardly people of great courage or political savvy when it comes to political history. They are and will continue to be cowards, unless they are turning on their own.
So, along comes the perfect plan for creating martial law under Bush and Cheney, which is what all the hoopla was about anyway. Under Directive 51, the President can declare martial law if there is an economic disaster that adversely affects the population. They even called Representatives and Senators, as well as, I suspect, directly threatened Reid and Pelosi from the beginning with exercising this option.
These morons-in-chief were planning for Americans to run the banks by broadcasting bank failures and spreading the panic about home value collapses, etc.. The media was completely taken in, but Americans, thank God, remained calm, listened to their bankers, stopped shopping finally after 7 years, and started paying attention. They saw who handled themselves well in a crisis, and even though they were ignored, demanded that the banks not be bailed out under the TARP.
So, now it finally comes to light that the President and the Cowardly Congress, with the help of the media, scammed us and gave away a trillion dollars of our money. If it were not what Bush wants, I would advocate taking to the streets and demanding our money back, but since I have no longing to live one day longer than necessary under Bush, I do not recommend doing anything that would allow him to declare martial law.
What I will do, though, is ask every citizen of this country who re-elected a Senator or a Congressperson who voted for TARP to demand a recall election, and for every citizen whose Senator was not up for re-election to plan to either recall or vote out in 2 years those people. As for Obama who voted for this bill, I hope, sir, that you are more capable of undoing the damage and waste caused by this blackmail you were subjected to during the campaign with your policies than Reid or Pelosi were in standing up against it.
As for the banks, let them fail. Do not give these thieves one more dime! Tell your Congressional delegation to vote NO on the additional $350 billion!!! The banks will survive, the economy will survive (although it will be much weaker than in the past), and we will recover. Let them be sued in federal courts for malfeasance and fraud by their customers and their stockholders. Let the CEOs do serious jail time in places that are not Club Feds, right alongside Paulsen, Bernanke, and all the others that let this happen through their arrogance and greed.
The local, community banks will be able to shoulder the burden and keep us all afloat. They have in the past and they will in the future. It is time to re-instate rules and regulations that limit banks to operating only within their home states and to break up these banking conglomerates again.
It is time for us as citizens to take back control of our personal finances and stop listening to snake oil salesmen with get rich quick schemes and start doing what we used to do best: build our own companies using hardwork and sweat and community support because we created jobs that way and true wealth built on things like goodwill and good American-made products. We can do it, and if that is what comes out of this scam, then we will be all the better for it.
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» Hahaha, I love it.
Posted by: dockboy
» RE: Hahaha, I love it.
Posted by: djnoll
» RE: Of course this was a scam!!!!
Posted by: G.Achin
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sonofloud on Dec 29, 2008 9:09 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The dems in congress sold it more than the republicans,
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: No,
Posted by: oregoncharles
Comments are closed-
Posted by: xallanmillerx on Dec 29, 2008 9:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Why No Mention of Obama?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Yes.
Posted by: oregoncharles
» Very simple
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» "Very simple" only for the simple minded
Posted by: PointMan
» RE: Obama vigorously sold endless Wall Street bailout on the way to become "president"
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Obama vigorously sold endless Wall Street bailout on the way to become "president"
Posted by: PointMan
» RE: Now there you're wrong.
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: Now there you're wrong.
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Now there you're wrong.
Posted by: PointMan
Comments are closed-
Posted by: gandolfshep on Dec 29, 2008 9:36 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: deborah conner on Dec 29, 2008 9:44 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
("Hail Sarah!" I see on Freeper blogs and websites. Go look.)
Charities and Universities have been hit hard by these suddenly discovered scams. Wonder. Have any Theocratically EnRaptured Churches lost their shirts?
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» RE: Have any Theocratically EnRaptured Churches lost their shirts?
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: GuitarBill on Dec 29, 2008 10:07 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Banks and financial institutions are extractive "industries"; they do not produce wealth; they produce debt--period.
Thus, banks and financial institutions are essentially parasites which feed off a collective host--the consumer.
Unfortunately, the Ivy League trained MBAs who run the banks and financial institutions are not intelligent enough to understand this fundamental relationship.
The fact is that the banks and financial institutions encouraged corporate policies that result in stagnant wages and diminished opportunity to find gainful employment, which is vital to the health of the host (ie., "the consumer").
Meanwhile the banks and financial institutions encouraged speculation in commodities and, especially, housing, which resulted in ever increasing property values.
The host (consumer) has finally perished as the result of dangerous imbalances created by the misguided policies mandated by the parasite (banks). Today, the host (consumer) is drowning in debt caused by shrinking wages, and ever rising commodity and housing costs.
That said, I find it very hard to believe that the banks and financial institutions implemented these destructive policies without knowledge where this all would lead, which begs the question: Why are the banks and financial institutions acting against their own best interests?
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» RE: Why are the banks and financial institutions acting against their own best interests?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: You give them too much credit...
Posted by: oregoncharles
» Trillions at Stake say You're Way Off on This...
Posted by: Mister_PsyOps
Comments are closed-
Posted by: monkeywrench on Dec 29, 2008 10:08 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Big Lie 9/11 (terrorists alone brought down WTC and the Pentagon) was the setup: Since then we've had the Patriot Act, suspension of Habeas Corpus and Posse Comatatus, and a "terror, terror everywhere" propaganda barrage that has made all sorts of thievery undetectable. The owner of WTC made out like a bandit too, while NYC got rid of a money-losing eyesore for far less than what it would have cost to tear down that asbestos-riddled white elephant.
Big Lie Iraq, based upon Big Lie 9/11, allowed us to rape a middle-eastern country for its oil, give us a forward stronghold in the Middle East to grab even more oil, and produce a gold rush for Bush/Cheney-connected contractors.
Big Lie Afghanistan was supposed to pave the way for a pipeline to access Caspian Sea oil and gas fields. (Hasn't worked out so well but there's a bright spot: the public bought the bullsh*t about finding Bin Laden/Al Qaida, which Bush never really wanted to capture, thereby maintaining the "Boogy Man" so necessary to support other Big Lies.
Big Lie New Orleans: Failing to act quickly or responsibly after Katrina was to pave the way for forced urban development, to run poor blacks out of town and convert The Big Easy into The Big Theme Park for high rollers. So far so good.
Big Lie Credit Crunch is the last-chance pilfering of government coffers (correction: credit line. Our government is BORROWING those trillions!) by Bush/Cheney and their Pirates of Wall Street (longest running black comedy in NYC.) This is Bush/Cheney's version of stealing all of the china and silverware on their way out of the White House (along with the rugs, furniture and chandeliers.)
I'm sure that I'm leaving out many other Big Lies; after all, space is at a premium. But one fact is crystal clear: our government under Bush/Cheney has been morphed into nothing less than one of the largest criminal enterprises in human history.
What pains me to no end is that, apparently, the public-at-large does not understand this, or care. They think that their approaching poverty is their own fault or because of "market forces" ("free market" is yet another Big Lie). The only success that Bush can legitimately own, along with his circle-jerk mainstream media, is the systematic dumbing-down and brainwashing of the american people to believe this, or to be so confused that they don't know WHAT to believe. Mission accomplished.
At least, Obama isn't telling any Big Lies – like "My administration will prosecute these bums for their crimes." His style is to reconcile. In different times, this would be nice, but under current circumstances, it could lead to another Big Lie: that we can move on from this without consequences. Indeed, the consequences of the Bush Crime Family getting away unscathed will be many, and disastrous.
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» RE: Big Lies, One more:
Posted by: channing
» The Bu$h Gang simply cannot walk away from these crimes!
Posted by: aussidawg
» HOPE will not manifest without Accountability
Posted by: common intelligence
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Posted by: ohb0b on Dec 29, 2008 10:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
O. Henry
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Posted by: grkjr on Dec 29, 2008 10:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: minority agreement
Posted by: aussidawg
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Posted by: PaulK on Dec 29, 2008 11:15 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The good thing about blowing a trillion on a crooked premise is that it's only money, and we can always borrow or print up more. That's true, isn't it?
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Posted by: Ghoulman on Dec 29, 2008 12:10 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But I knew the 'credit crunch' talk was out-of-the-blue. Thank you for pointing out how the Bush Junta has simply created yet another Straussian narrative (you know, a lie) to cover the facts and their actions.
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Posted by: goodsensecynic on Dec 29, 2008 12:31 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Instead of sorting out who really killed JFK or what is actually behind commercial disasters from Enron to the current global “credit crisis,” opinion leaders prefer to brand as paranoid anyone who sees, at the very least, patterns of mutual interest within the convoluted network of power that is sometimes described as the military-industrial-congressional-financial-ideological complex, also known as the corporate ruling class.
It would therefore be both presumptuous and futile to lay out a theory in hopes of identifying exactly who is doing what to whom, with the result that ordinary people are hurting as seldom before in living memory.
I know of only two things to be said with confidence. First, from Socrates and his egregious “noble lie” to Goebbels and his vile “big lie,” ideologues have tried to persuade people to be complicit in their own oppression. After all, rulers benefit when the ruled believe that a patently unfair society is both just and necessary … it saves needless expenditures on secret police and torture chambers. Second, although no post-subsistence society has ever achieved equity (much less equality) in the distribution of wealth, the gap between rich and poor is growing in most late capitalist societies, and the middle class is being especially squeezed in the United States.
So, although I cannot claim to know the details of the various banking bail-outs and the plans for rescuing bloated and bull-headed manufacturing firms, I do know that, since about 1970, corporate profits have risen, productivity has increased, but the earnings of middle and working class people have — with occasional hills and valleys — generally flattened if not fallen.
Meanwhile, having luxuriated in an economy that produced huge profits and provided proportionately more “welfare” to corporations than to citizens, it seems that it is now time to put the marshmallows on the sweet potato pie. The “trillion dollar scam” may simply be the largest transfer of “taxpayers’ money” to those who seem to have lost control of the day-to-day operations of a system that served them splendidly for the past half-century and more.
Whether it is better to call contemporary elites a plutocracy or a kleptocracy is for others to decide. Whichever, citizens must now do their best to cast off the market mentality and the illusions it provides about how the economy works. We must also begin to demand some real changes. It is not enough to restore the economy to past glories, for it is fatally compromised by toxic policies and procedures.
Instead, those unwilling to think seriously about the benefits of a genuine social democracy might at least consider this simple step: let us separate savings banks from investment banks. The virtual economy of baseless credit (“derivatives” and the like) should be set apart from banks that deal with the real economy of savings, consumer loans and so on. Then the high-rollers and speculators would at least be kept away from honest, working people who would not be brought down with them when their criminal schemes go awry.
If the economy needs to be stimulated (and, absent establishing sane limits to growth, it probably does), tonic measures can only be taken from the bottom up. Anything else just adds to the pot of gold at the top – which can almost magically be transformed into a crock of something much more organic when it falls from great heights and lands heavily upon the heads of those already disadvantaged by the current system.
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Posted by: maxpayne on Dec 29, 2008 12:39 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: goodsensecynic on Dec 29, 2008 12:46 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Instead of seeking to sort out who really killed JFK or what is actually behind commercial disasters from Enron to the current global “credit crisis,” opinion leaders prefer to brand as paranoid anyone who sees no more than patterns of mutual interest within the convoluted network of power that is often described as the military-industrial-congressional-financial-ideological complex (also known as the corporate ruling class).
So, it would be both presumptuous and futile to lay out a theory in hopes of identifying exactly who is doing what to whom, such that ordinary people are hurting as seldom before in living memory.
I know of only two things that can be said with confidence. First, from Socrates and his egregious “noble lie” to Goebbels and his vile “big lie,” ideologues have tried to persuade people to become complicit in their own oppression. After all, rulers benefit when the ruled believe that a patently unfair society is both just and necessary … it saves expenditures on secret police and torture chambers. Second, although no post-subsistence society has ever achieved equity (much less equality) in the distribution of wealth, the gap between rich and poor is growing in most late capitalist societies, and the middle class is being especially squeezed in the United States.
Although I can't claim to know the details of the various banking bail-outs and the plans for rescuing bloated and bull-headed manufacturers, I do know that, since about 1970, corporate profits have risen, productivity has increased, but the earnings of middle and working class people have — with occasional hills and valleys — generally flattened if not fallen.
Meanwhile, having luxuriated in an economy that produced huge profits and provided proportionately more “welfare” to corporations than to citizens, it seems that it is now time to put the marshmallows on the sweet potato pie. The “trillion dollar scam” may be the last and the largest transfer of “taxpayers’ money” to those who seem to have lost control of the day-to-day operations of a system that served them splendidly for the past half-century and much more.
Whether it is better to call contemporary elites a plutocracy or a kleptocracy is for others to decide. Whichever, citizens must now do their best to cast off the market mentality and the illusions it provides about how the economy works. We must also begin to demand some real changes. It is not enough to restore the economy to its past glories, for it is fatally compromised by toxic policies and procedures.
Instead, those of us unwilling to think seriously about the benefits of genuine social democracy might at least consider this simple step: let us separate savings banks from investment banks. The virtual economy of baseless credit (“derivatives” etc.) should be set apart from banks that deal with the real economy of savings, consumer loans and so on. Then the high-rollers and speculators would at least be kept away from honest, working people who would not be brought down with them when their criminal schemes go awry.
If the economy needs to be stimulated (and, absent sane limits to growth, it probably does), tonic measures can only be taken from the bottom up. Anything else just adds to the pot of gold at the top – which can almost magically be transformed into a crock of something more organic when it falls from great heights and lands heavily upon the heads of those already harmed by the current system.
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Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com on Dec 29, 2008 1:51 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To those outside the majority that is fooled all the time this suspicion wasn't recent.
Unfortunately you can fool all of the people some of the time and a majority of people all of the time.
Patriot Act, OBL (who still doesn't have 9/11 on his FBI poster), Iraq, the bailouts, telecom immunity, NAFTA, WTO, World Bank, free trade, etc, people are dumb.
Just get people afraid and a majority will do what you want.
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Posted by: Pirate1 on Dec 29, 2008 2:34 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Whatcha wanna bet...
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Whatcha wanna bet... more money is needed
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: yellow on Dec 29, 2008 3:50 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The reason is clear. The chronic stagnation of the US economy has been so deep for so long that the twin stock market/housing market bubbles of the last decade and a half was required to sustain the consumption necessary to keep the US economy even barely afloat. The Minsky Moment, when cash hoarding by banks and liquidity preference constrains new lending is here and digging itself in deep. The time for action is now!!
Lest anyone seriously doubt the depth of the credit crisis, consider the following. New lending has dropped off and commercial banks are extending mostly existing underused credit lines available to long standing business customers. Between 2001 and 2007 a sudden surge in the use of untapped existing credit availability by business of 50% has occurred with internal revenues insufficient to sustain normal business operations. Furthermore, a surge in cash hoarding by banks has been noted within the commercial banking system. And because of the freeze up in the securities markets, outstanding loans, which formerly became securitized, now remain on commercial bank balance sheets giving the sudden appearance of an increase in new lending. In fact, what we are seeing is a decrease in securitization. Finally, most interbank lending is held to be trade in repurchase agreements which doesn't count as normal interbank lending activity.
The sad truth about late capitalism is that it is chronically stagnant. The reason is that it cycles up and down and doesn't reach equilibrium at full employment. This is because the opportunities for profitable investment, the core of the system's dynamic, decrease over time with each 8-12 year full cycle concentrating the economy and income distribution more and more. Effective consumer demand is constrained and thus investment, employment and growth. Government stimulus in the form of public investment is needed.
Historically, beginning with FDR, the US federal government has been reluctant to spend more than 14% of the GDP on non-defense, non-social security/medicare related new public investment as a stimulus. A stimulus roughly the size of 20% of the US GDP will be needed for ongoing success. It will also need to be invested in sustainable new sectors that can restructure our economy like health care and "green jobs" that save energy costs and create overall end use efficiencies. We only need the political will.
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» RE: OK folks its more like this...
Posted by: richard0a37
» RE: OK folks its more like this...
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: OK folks its more like this...
Posted by: yellow
Comments are closed-
Posted by: remoran on Dec 29, 2008 6:18 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A medium of exchange.
What is US money?
US money is fiat (legal tender) backed by nothing. Money as debt is the operative term here.
How is money created?
The Fed creates it as needs warrant.
Who prints our money?
The Fed.
Is the Fed part of government?
No, it's a private cartel protected by government.
What is a scam
An illegal ripoff of our "money" orchestrated by the Fed and abetted by Congress and the secretary of the treasury.
Proof? Bloomberg is suing the Fed to find out where two trillion dollars have gone.
Any questions?
Addendum: Wake up and learn why things are the way they are by doing due diligence to discover what money is and how it's manipulated. As the X Files states. The truth is out there.
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» ? is What's a Fed. Reserve "Note"?
Posted by: common intelligence
» Money is not only a medium of exchange, that is your first mistake.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: remoran
Posted by: racetoinfinity
» RE:my link
Posted by: racetoinfinity
Comments are closed-
Posted by: empirePie on Dec 29, 2008 6:32 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The greed is great gangsters
marked in by the Madoff pranksters
need renewal for their banks
since the levers of the levers that they shrank
are lookin kinda blank no thanks to Hank
Welcome to the home of the TARP family
starting the harken of Hank and the barkers of bank
for credit claims debt and debt is for let
and the let bets get sliced and diced
while the wants get enticed
to flimflam St where the bet is the beat
do you feel the heat?
Will the false flagged crisis be a la Hank?
Will credit be on the run or on the take?
Are there some Madoffs on the make?
Got cake?
Eat it.
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Posted by: owlsliveintrees on Dec 29, 2008 7:55 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course is you completely misunderstand the situation you'll likely come to the conclusion that the bailout was a scam. It may be, and it may not be, but the idea that Mr and Mrs. Good Credit Rating can't get a loan to buy a house or a car is ridiculous. And NOBODY is arguing that. Nobody i've read or watched anyway.
Who's BUYING all the houses that are sold for 50% lower than they were two years ago? People who applied for, and received mortgages.
This "scam" talk ignores what the majority of economists say, that a couple months ago, the wheels were dangerously close to coming off. Now who knows what would have happened, but in no way do the continued lines of credit to credit-worthy consumers indicate that the bailout was somehow a "scam."
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» RE: Where did the author get this idea?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: quite right Lauren
Posted by: Ghoulman
» NO, it's completely goof
Posted by: owlsliveintrees
» RE: YES, it's completely 'A' goof...
Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: YES, it's completely 'A' goof...
Posted by: owlsliveintrees
» RE: rubbish
Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: rubbish
Posted by: owlsliveintrees
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Posted by: owlsliveintrees on Dec 29, 2008 7:58 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course is you completely misunderstand the situation you'll likely come to the conclusion that the bailout was a scam. It may be, and it may not be, but the idea that Mr and Mrs. Good Credit Rating can't get a loan to buy a house or a car is ridiculous. And NOBODY is arguing that. Nobody i've read or watched anyway.
Who's BUYING all the houses that are sold for 50% lower than they were two years ago? People who applied for, and received mortgages.
This "scam" talk ignores what the majority of economists say, that a couple months ago, the wheels were dangerously close to coming off. Now who knows what would have happened, but in no way do the continued lines of credit to credit-worthy consumers indicate that the bailout was somehow a "scam."
Why does Alternet constantly post straw man articles under the guise of contradicting orthodoxy.
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» RE: Straw Man - trolls live in trees
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: RickW on Dec 29, 2008 8:22 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: wardropper on Dec 29, 2008 9:04 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Because I mentally put myself in the place of a ruthless dimwit and thought, "What would I do if I were Bush?"
The rest was easy.
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Posted by: leafsong1 on Dec 30, 2008 2:04 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: talkville on Dec 31, 2008 4:35 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This time 'round, rather than red-coats, cannon and logistics, what was sent was culture, manners, sense and sensibility -- the Red Skirt. Don't lie! Everybody Bought it... on Credit of course!!
How genteel these new and up-and-coming new role-models, scripts, etiquettes and customs!! Oh, what Class!! It's Versailles! It's London! It's Paris!! Tea-parties and Salons, Courtiers and Courtesans, haute-cuisine and oh, such refined tastes!! Oh, these New Americans!! Swoon or be exiled!! Play or be cast out!! Pretend or be dismissed!! Act or be fired!.
What's all this got to do with the "credit crunch"?
Do not think me all too curmudgeonly and flippant on this score! Think about it slowly. As they say, put "two-and-two together" -- slowly, carefully, autonomously!
Mommy England wants the Wayward Son back! She's 'stewed in her resentful juices for nigh on 400 years now! Do not think her gentle, courteous or magnanimous!! She's sadistic, she wants revenge and she will get more than a couple of Pounds of Flesh, make no mistake!!
It soon will dawn on all of us who do not OWN (e.g. who are not BANKS): we are, formally, all commodities. A plant, an animal, a machine, or an instrument, all equivalent before the Law and UNDER it! Fascism- gentle or firm, but fascism nonetheless.
Credit crunch?? Hah!! Guess what, Citizen? They OWN us -- Land, Women, Men, Children and Plant and Equipment. Slavery and Servitude are the only HONEST descriptions of each of our conditions. ENCLOSURE!! Same as 1600's, same as 1700's, same as 1800's, same as 1900's, same as 2000. They do it very, very well, and they continue to do it, from time immemorial. They are a special kind of Creature: Cannibals, Slave-Traders, Stationary Nomads, Thieves, Pirates, Murderers.... but: PIOUS!! Well-Mannered!!, Polite and Civil!! They are the Cultured Parasites of History.
Credit Crunch??? Hah!! Credit CRUSH!!
Without a shot. On Credit, so-to-speak.
I am not, I will not, I cannot, be OWNED. If die I must, so be it. Liberation NOW!!
The generous and smiling happy 'win-win' friendly man and woman you've been used to, is calling in his or her chips. GOTCHA, citizen!! A hug? Nay! an Enclosure. Care? Nay! an Entrapment. Love? Nay! Control!! Intervention? Nay! Gang-rape.
Credit crunch?? Nay! Slavery, citizen!! Get used to it; teach it to your sons and your daughters. SOME are to grow to be Man or Woman; MOST are to grow to be COMMODITY. Use Value; Exchange Value. "Traditional" values....
That Action set forth and enumerated in the Declaration of Independence? Null! Void!. The Constitution of the United States of America? Strictly interpreted -- 1st: Property. Then, maybe and according to moods and temperaments, people. The United States of America is now a dolled up, dressed up, sex-worker and whore -- on sale to the highest bidder. Credit crunch? Hah! Enclosure and Divestiture. Dispossession and Enslavement. A 'world leader' with the ethics of a snake, a fox, a parasite...
It's just another Enclosure, citizen.
Choose your side.
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Posted by: vspoils on Jan 1, 2009 11:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
END THE FED! The Fed is the root of our so-called financial crisis. It's only a crisis if you're on the wrong end of the printing press. The FED, a consortium of private banks, secretly owned because they won't divulge the list of shareholders, prints money out of thin air, thanks to the Creature from Jekyl Island, and then LENDS IT BACK TO US! Now how can we get a piece of that? THAT is the biggest scam in history. Central Banks all over the world have been copying this scheme since the Bank of England invented it. Our forefathers decried it and forbade it by writing it into the Constitution that only Congress shall have the power to coin money and regulate its value thereof. But as always, Congress eventually caved in for the last time. Three Presidents (Lincoln, Garfield, Kennedy) have been assassinated trying to abolish the Central banking system. Then they created the illegal IRS to enforce the usury payments known as income tax. Look it up, the 16th Amendment was never properly ratified. Income is defined as profit and wages are defined as a trade for your time. Watch 'America: Freedom to Fascism' on youtube. Also, a must see: 'Money Masters', the very best video on how money works and is created.
Always remember, the FED IS A PRIVATE BANK! It is not audited, not truly, it is answerable to no one. Congress just begs it for information, but these thieves just do what they want, they are under no legislative obligation to do anything. Their loyalty lies with the shareholders, which in large part are -- guess what -- foreign interests! Nice, huh?
Until we enforce Article II, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution we will remain screwed for good, folks, so you better learn something about monetary policy and get marching. Otherwise, get your tin cups and warm slippers ready.
Those FEMA camps they've been building (over 800 at last count) aren't for the kiddies, they're for you and Grandma when the feces hit the fan and the food runs out. Military Commissions Act? We can have martial law for almost no reason, economic crisis will do nicely, thank you very much. And those 20-30k troops they're now training for "domestic security" aren't there for the refreshments, they're now your very own impersonal bodyguards. They will keep your body guarded behind that razor wire.
Read everything you can about debt-based currency. We need a return to sound money, backed by the full faith and credit of the USA (i.e. the people). I'm not a gold supporter, gold can be manipulated on the markets. Greenbacks are the way to go. Anyway, that debate is for after we decide how high to hang the bankers who got us into this mess.
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Posted by: Zeugitai on Jan 2, 2009 1:49 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In America, truth is anathema. Fantasy and lies in euphemisms and metaphors is all that people want to consume.
I can't think of a more insane empire in the history of the planet.
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Posted by: anok on Jan 2, 2009 2:21 PM
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The lenders have tightened their grips on the lending process. Obviously, with a decline in employment, salaries, a rise in basic living costs etc..banks and other lenders are skittish about handing out more money that may or may not be repaid, on top of credit lines that are already under strain. That means that they have changed the parameters of what is, and isn't acceptable credit for borrowers. Which follows that those who had previously been able to borrow no longer can.
The fact that loan applications have decreased does not negate the changes being made. Many people are being shut out before even getting to the application process, and, many people are simply trying to refinance or negotiate loan terms - none of which requires an application right off the bat. These people are being denied left and right. try renegotiating your rates or limits with your credit card company - a few years ago solid customers could do that no problem. Now companies like Amex are decreasing their customers credit limits based on their shopping - not credit - habits, and refusing to lower or renegotiate percentage rates. Many other cards and mortgage companies are doing the same.
No, it's not a "scam". The bailout was a poor decision, but not a scam.
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Posted by: maxsmart on Jan 2, 2009 2:56 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are all interdependent, economically and all other ways and we need an economic system that does not prey on others to build their glass castles. No one profits from someone else's pain.
We share a tiny jewel of life orbiting our only begotten Sun and no one appreciates it or how much we depend on each other.
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Posted by: ds1st on Jan 3, 2009 8:49 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Like driving a car. The govenrment must be able to say who can and can't own cars.
Like owning a gun. The govenrment must be able to say who can and can't own a gun.
I want a big federal, state and local govenrment telling me how to be human.
Yea for the liberals and children!
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Posted by: Urgelt on Jan 4, 2009 1:39 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not only are financial institutions overextended on bad loans to uncreditworthy borrowers. Not only are probably illegal "faux insurance" credit swaps putting the financial institutions which sold them into jeopardy. Not only are Wall Street ponzi schemes coming crashing down around their ears, exposed by the economic downturn. Demand for new credit is just plain drying up. So it's a perfect storm in the financial industry. All of the cash cows they exploited so successfully during the real estate bubble have stopped producing as much milk.
The solution to this "crisis" as conceived by the Wall Street titans was another chapter in disaster capitalism. They'd get profit by scaring the bejesus out of taxpayers and getting them to hand over government money. Preferably without strings.
The bailout is the ultimate in influence-peddling. At no point in our history has so much wealth been transferred from ordinary Americans directly into the pockets of the wealthy for so little gain to the general population.
It could never have happened with an uncorrupted Congress and Administration.
Author Tad Williams, in his breezy "Otherworld" series, playfully presents readers with a near-future vision of America in which the Senate has become the Industrial Senate, with seats awarded to major corporations rather than states. It's amusing when it springs from Williams' pen, not so funny when we confront it in truth.
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Posted by: ron heringhauser on Jan 4, 2009 1:50 PM
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Posted by: dealmeinfo2 on Jan 6, 2009 2:35 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
------------------------------------------------
Minnesota property preservation
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Posted by: mmckinl on Dec 29, 2008 12:55 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So why isn't everyone calling for a nationalization to begin auditing all the banks' books under an FDR Bank Holiday or Swedish Plan to sort out the solvent from the insolvent banks ? Tax Payers certainly deserve an accounting of the 9 trillion used so far for loans and guarantees.
Dean Baker, Joshua Holland, if you suspect a scam then where is your call for an audit of these Wall Street Banks ?
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» Obama's new Fed Chairman
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
» Pssst....over here, genius.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» RE: Obama's new Fed Chairman
Posted by: racetoinfinity
» Audit? We don' have to show you no focking audit!
Posted by: willymack
» RE: Audit? We don' have to show you no focking audit!
Posted by: Lauren
» Loans aren't the issue....
Posted by: Prophit
» 100 economists wrote to congress and hand delivered the letter....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: 100 economists wrote to congress and hand delivered the letter....
Posted by: racetoinfinity
» Audit the Banks? Start with the Pentagon and Rummy having "lost" a Couple of Trillion?
Posted by: common intelligence
» We should create an army of accountants.
Posted by: FeralCat
» RE: We should create an army of accountants.
Posted by: Lauren
» Where's the... Adult ?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Where's the... Adult ?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: not a good sign
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: not a good sign
Posted by: racetoinfinity
» RE: Where's the... Adult ?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Where's the... Adult ?
Posted by: StillStanding
» RE: Where's the... Adult ?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: A Scam By Wall Street Banks ? ....So Where's The Audit ?
Posted by: bluepilgrim
» The Bilderberg Group was behind this historic theft...
Posted by: TJColatrella
» RE: The Bilderberg Group was behind this historic theft...
Posted by: vspoils
» Actually what Josh should have called for was an audit of Treasury & the Fed reserve!
Posted by: Prophit
» Shut up moron
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Shut up moron
Posted by: racetoinfinity
» RE: Actually what Josh should have called for was an audit of Treasury & the Fed reserve!
Posted by: racetoinfinity
» RE: Where are the Investigative reporters?
Posted by: ATH
» OBTW: 2008 loan issuance falls 55 percent !
Posted by: mmckinl
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Dec 29, 2008 1:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Deflation would be nothing to fear as long as a safety net existed to protect the innocent in the downdraft. I personally have not been using my house as an ATM, have no debt and have lived within my means. This should be my chance to get a more affordable house, being liquid and all.
The conservative Democrats and almost all Republicans always run their mouths about a free market, but they never allow the free market to work. What they like is crony capitalism under the guise of a free market.
Sure, there is a lot of theft going on right now- the Shock Doctrine right before your eyes. Anyone doubt Ms Klein any longer?
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» What Republicans
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
» RE: What Republicans
Posted by: rickyvern
» keep running away from the ball
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
» RE: What Republicans
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: I think you know...
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: We Are Experiencing A Deflation
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Well, yes.
Posted by: oregoncharles
» Gold is going up
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: Gold is going up but how far up?
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Actually,
Posted by: oregoncharles
» There is no deflation
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: There is no deflation
Posted by: racetoinfinity
» Deflation??? You could have fooled me with the food prices....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Deflation??? YES
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Deflation??? Absolutely NOT!
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: Deflation???
Posted by: NoPCZone
» There can be a deflation even with money supply expansion if the money is not spent!!
Posted by: yellow
» Bunk from Yellow, as usual
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» CPI declines are not paper declines. Go to the store and get a real big discount.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: more deflation rubbish
Posted by: ReallyBearish
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Sons on Dec 29, 2008 1:33 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I heard Limbaugh a month ago saying it was a scam! He even called up some banker and asked questions about difficulty getting a loan.
She said there was NOT a problem getting a loan.
Wow. Limbaugh!
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» Rush is Right (again)
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
» RE: ush is Right (2nd time) believe it or not. I believe it.
Posted by: Lauren
» Yeah, using martial law as the threat on the congress!
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Wow. Limbaugh did a little actual reporting
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Limbaugh Said It Was a Scam!
Posted by: Quannah
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Posted by: richard0a37 on Dec 29, 2008 1:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Indeed, the whole truth can be summed up in the letter I received from my bank the other day, and which reads:
Dear Sir
As you know, the Bank of England base rate was marginally reduced recently; consequently, some of our savings interest rates are also being reduced. See enclosed for details.
That's the reality on the ground. Petrol has also got cheaper, and VAT has been reduced on some goods.
Occasionally, things get marginally more expensive, or perhaps a bit cheaper, but always hovering around the affordable.
In other words, nothing has changed.
If the banks passed money around without telling anyone, we would be none the wiser.
But Bush et al wished to generate an air of panic and get everyone talking about the same subject. Just like 911 or when the first Bush invaded Iraq in 1990.
These are all experiments in psychological operations (psy-ops) to see how clever they are at manipulating events and public opinion.
Without doubt, we have evil non-human beings running the show. This so-called credit crisis took off at about the same time as an alien space craft was scheduled to be been seen hovering over the southern states of the USA, but of course that never materialised, possibly because I'd already broadcast the news to everyone and laid out a chilling scenario behind its motivation. (that's without the apostrophe by the way)
Plus, certain battalions of the Army are rumoured to be positioned to quell any public disturbances or riots. Is this still true, or is this just another piece of news meant to deceive us?
Life over the past 8 years has been like scenes out of Alice in Wonderful where nothing is quite what it seems.
A new film has just been released on Sky TV called Lions for Lambs starring Tom Cruise, Robert Redford and Meryl Streep. Tom Cruise has got his photograph taken with George W Bush and Condeleezza Rice. Cruise plays a senator who has masterminded a new strategy for hitting the Taleban.
This film, in my view, is just like real life US politics - full of phony emotion and phony motives, and at the end of it, you are left wondering what the hell it's all about. Perhaps someone could clarify the plot.
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» Bush Bush Bush
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
» RE: Bush Bush Bush
Posted by: StillStanding
» RE: Bush Bush Bush
Posted by: Lauren
» A weird bias
Posted by: Perry Logan
» RE: Bush Bush Bush
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: We live in an age of illusion
Posted by: riondluz
» RE: We live in an age of illusion
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: We live in an age of illusion
Posted by: racetoinfinity
Comments are closed-
Posted by: lorenbliss on Dec 29, 2008 1:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In a technique pioneered by the Sicilian Mafia but since adopted by all other criminal organizations, the mobsters use various ploys to buy into a legitimate business, gradually increase their control to the point of absolute authority, then like vampires methodically bleed the business dry of cash.
The remnants -- machinery too obsolete to sell, the buildings themselves -- are typically destroyed in an “accidental” fire just before the insurance expires. The proceeds of the entire scheme vanish into the criminal treasury -- typically some offshore bank account -- where they are used to finance further criminal enterprises, whether illegal (slavery, drugs etc.) or legal (the acquisition of more businesses to similarly plunder). It is a process so well known to New York City/New Jersey journalists, there have even been pools as to when such “lightning” would strike.
Bearing these facts in mind, note how the looting of government that began under Nixon and has continued ever since parallels how parasitic mobsters prey on businesses.
This is the context in which we must view the so-called “Bailout.”
Which brings several more questions into painfully sharp focus:
What is capitalism but the ultimate form of organized crime?
What if -- never mind it has absolutely no historical counterpart in criminal boldness and savagery -- the $700-billion bailout is the climax of an epic crime spree? What if -- in typical gangland fashion -- it is the final ransacking of our national wealth?
What if the nation the leadership of which Obama then inherits is no different from any other gangster-looted enterprise? What if it is but a hollow shell? What if the United States has truly been reduced to the economic equivalent of a vampire-withered corpse?
Is that perhaps the real reason the ruling class financed and otherwise arranged Obama’s victory? A final, ultimate slap-in-the-face to African-Americans?
And could there be some colossal criminal cabal of global corruption that might then profit if the United States were destroyed by an insurance fire of thermonuclear proportions?
I say again: what is capitalism but the ultimate form of organized crime?
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» RE: The 'Sting' Called Trickle Down
Posted by: Purple Girl
» When has a poor person giving you a job?
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
» RE: When has a poor person giving you a job?
Posted by: yellow
» RE: When has a poor person giving you a job?
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: When has a teacher given you English lessons?
Posted by: ATH
» RE: Excellent, BushMafia Inc's Final Rape
Posted by: channing
Comments are closed-
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars on Dec 29, 2008 1:49 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
crickets
You can go on a President Bush diatribe all you want however his days are done after 01/20. Whom are you going to blame next, the Easter Bunny? Ya'll need to stop acting like Wall Street is only in the pockets of the GOP because that is far from so. I mean were is Wall Street located again, in one of the worlds most Liberal Cities, thats a far cry from Ames Iowa.
When Republicans screw up they dont get reelected however the likes of Barny Frank, Most of the CBC, Henry Waxman, and 9% Nancy Pelosi, keeps coming back to congress time after time then you wonder why things like this keep happening.
Check your own house Liberals
p.s. Madoff gets 3 years tops, suspended sentence with five years probation. George Sours got the condo in Belize all ready set up for the guy
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» Sorry, republicans do screw up and get reelected
Posted by: Beck
» RE: republicans do screw US to get their guy reelected, again.
Posted by: Lauren
» See: Barney Frank
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
» Blaming the Dems for this 8 year nightmare is the most idiotic thing one can do!!
Posted by: yellow
» Becuase God created the earth on 01/20/01
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
» "Where are these People?" asks Alternet's newest Troll. Take a break from trolling and look around!!
Posted by: yellow
» I live in the places you never care to visit
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
» And the Clinton Angle? How is HE to blame?
Posted by: yellow
» RE: And the Clinton Angle? Clinton repealed Glass Steagall
Posted by: DCostello2
» RE: And the Clinton Angle? Clinton repealed Glass Steagall
Posted by: yellow
» oh yeah, where is that?
Posted by: bizeeb
» RE: Becuase God created the earth on 01/20/01
Posted by: JSquercia
» Yellow is correct-- with one exception
Posted by: Curio
» RE: Yellow is correct-- with one exception
Posted by: yellow
» RE: I didn't,
Posted by: oregoncharles
» this whole Madoff thing...
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
» GOOD POINT! - "I mean were is Wall Street located again, in one of the worlds most Liberal Cities"
Posted by: FREE SPEECH
Comments are closed-
Posted by: skoog5600 on Dec 29, 2008 2:37 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, the American populace are asleep as they rob the bank.
It's a long way to the bottom, but y'all are on your way!
Sayonara!!!
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» RE: Americans deserve what they get...
Posted by: herronsmith
» RE: Americans deserve what they get...
Posted by: hms2004
» Almost 50% of Americans?
Posted by: Cathyc
» I have to agree with you.
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» RE: Americans deserve what they get... angry are we?
Posted by: skoog5600
» RE: Americans deserve what they get...
Posted by: Purple Girl
» yarn
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
» Nice try...
Posted by: skoog5600
» RE: Americans deserve what they get...
Posted by: Skunkatthepicnic
» RE: I am very relieved...
Posted by: skoog5600
» nowhere to run.
Posted by: rafaeltoral
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Suzon on Dec 29, 2008 3:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, that's the same government of Her Majesty's which protects the aristocrats and the quasi-aristocrats with subsidies.
We need a land tax, boys and girls, and a return of the luxury tax.
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» RE: "If it happens, it was planned" is a bit of an overstatement, but not in this instance...
Posted by: helenahanbasquet
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Posted by: socialpsych on Dec 29, 2008 3:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: disaster piracy
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: disaster piracy
Posted by: aussidawg
Comments are closed-
Posted by: richholland on Dec 29, 2008 3:46 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For whom, where comes the money from????
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» RE: what is going on??
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: what is going on??
Posted by: G.Achin
» RE: what is going on??
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: what is going on??
Posted by: rickyvern
» RE: what is going on??
Posted by: daniel1982
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cberkland on Dec 29, 2008 4:35 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: TARP intended to stop a panic
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: TARP intended to stop a panic
Posted by: cberkland
» RE: TARP intended to stop a panic
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: TARP intended to stop a panic
Posted by: cberkland
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cbishopp on Dec 29, 2008 5:14 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The illusion of the credit crisis set the stage (as has been the modus operendi of the present administration)for panic when no threat existed outside of the dangers from those claiming to protect us.
The same people who are making money now will continue to do so as the dollar loses value in an attempt to pay back these trillion dollar loans.
But the yoke will always be there. The debt will never go away as long as the Fed controls the production of our currency. The value of this currency can only decline and the creation of new currencies (like the Euro) will consolidate power to an even greater extent. With the dollar having such long tentacles and the impact of the "financial crisis" being felt all over the world, it seems wise to have a variety of valuable currencies in play. Instead we will see the dollar devalue until we are forced to take on a new currency.
Talk about a credit squeeze!
Take back our currency, reduce taxes, create health care. We can run a whole economy on taking care of each other by killing the middleman.
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» RE: money stream
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: otto on Dec 29, 2008 5:26 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Otto .
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: 911FalseFlag on Dec 29, 2008 5:52 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Each one of these crises came into being through the same basic mechanism...the fraudulent over-valuing of financial assets by Wall Street - with a "wink and a nod" (and sometimes a lot more) from the White House and Congress. The fraudulently valued assets stimulate the economy, impart the illusion of health and then, inevitably, the fraud goes too far and the whole house of card comes painfully crashing back to earth.
The White House stood in the way of any state prosecuting federal banks and mortgage companies for predatory lending. They actually used a portion of the enabling act creating the US Comptroller of the Currency to preempt the regulation and prosecution of these banks for fraudulent loan activities. This is why Eliot Spitzer was politically assassinated. He wrote an editorial in the Washington Post three weeks before his assassination accusing the White House of preventing any state Attorney General from prosecuting these criminal activities. Of course, the mainstream media did not report the actual reason that this politician’s sexual indiscretions were reported so immediately and excessively.
The mainstream media never reported on Bush planting in the White House press corps a gay escort, Johnny Gannon. Gannon based on the Secret Service records of visits to the White House visited the White House over 200 times and stayed overnight at least two times.
Go to www.911insidejob.net for more articles and videos
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» RE: End the Fed
Posted by: ron heringhauser
» RE: Third Trillion Dollar Bubble Created by FED
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Third Trillion Dollar Bubble Created by FED
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Mr. Guckert has at times implied that he either saw or possessed a classified memo identifying V
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: willymack on Dec 29, 2008 5:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: It's only a paper moon
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Nicnic on Dec 29, 2008 6:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh, I forgot to tell you to turn off the TV first. Eventually, you'll realize the real reason behind the digital broadcast movement and why it's so important for them to have everyone wired into the same channel. You've made it so easy for them to own your lives. You've offered yourselves up as livestock and reduced your significance to that of the very corn fed mutes you voraciously consume.
You are past the point of no return. You're going to have to fight your way out of it. But they're ready for you. Ready and waiting under the auspices of Homeland Security.
The only way to stop them is to stop the funding. Pass the Fair Tax, buy only locally grown food, engage in local or regional commerce and turn off the freaking TV, read a book, participate in life don't just watch it acted out, create your own community and revitalize your local newspaper.
Goodnight and good luck...
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» RE: Sinking into the Sunset
Posted by: americansheep
» RE: Sinking into the Sunset
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Sleepers Awake
Posted by: riondluz
» RE: Sleepers Awake
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Sleepers Awake
Posted by: Lauren
» Tax revolt possible?
Posted by: FREE SPEECH
Comments are closed-
Posted by: daniel1982 on Dec 29, 2008 6:06 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Before the first (and even the second) bailout vote you could not turn on the news and not have yourself be inundated with reporters telling us how we'll lose our jobs if the bill doesn't pass. It was also fast - too fast. At the very least, why couldn't congress wait a few weeks to assess the situation? Instead it rushed into this like a drunken sailor with bags of money. There was no need to do it so fast.
At the end of the day, this bailout is what sunk the Bush's legacy, not Iraq. There is no way future generations will look kindly on this.
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» RE: I think the bail out was a scam.
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: I think so..
Posted by: adlerman
» RE: I think so..
Posted by: adlerman
» And both parties supported the bailout and war and both sunk the president.
Posted by: maxpayne
» Investigate!
Posted by: rt968
Comments are closed-
Posted by: SevenStarHand on Dec 29, 2008 6:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Money is slavery by proxy, pure and simple.
If you don't want to listen to me, hear it on YouTube, from others...
Humanity still suffers from Stockholm syndrome and the obvious effects of addiction. It's like a junky thinking that the problem will be solved by finding a new dealer or a cleaner needle. In the end, you're still enriching those who control the drug source, from the shadows.
An enforced cold-turkey is coming quickly, and I suggest everyone start contemplating life, free of the drug (aka strong delusion) called money.
Even if you change the source of money, it'll still cause poverty, suffering, wars, and you'll remain in unending servitude, lifetime, after lifetime, after lifetime, in perpetuity. THe rich will still be rich, the greedy will still rise to the top of the system, and you'll still be duped slaves. Now is the time to break the cycle, while you have the ability to do so. What comes next will not be for your benefit, again.
I've already given you the opportunity and now unfolding global conditions are going to give you the incentive. I know I sound like a broken record sometimes, but junkies need intervention, before the poison kills them. Capiche?
Are you ready yet?
The Vatican and their secret society cohorts are your drug dealers. Why do you think they keep this such a closely guarded secret? They don't want the proxy-slaves to know who the master is. They know money is evil...
Peace and Wisdom...
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Posted by: vade_dyset on Dec 29, 2008 6:24 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: credit crunch?
Posted by: dockboy
» RE: credit crunch?: you misinterpret
Posted by: oregoncharles
Comments are closed-
Comments are closed-
Posted by: John Sawyer on Dec 29, 2008 6:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Who knows where the money goes?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Who knows where the money goes?
Posted by: John Sawyer
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mnstra on Dec 29, 2008 7:05 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Dec 29, 2008 7:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Does anyone in their right mind actually believe we CAN do anything about whatever the INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE in government do?
We have no power over any of them due to all of those laws and instruments in place to protect the criminals such as cheney's handjob puppet, greenspan, ad infinitum.
How many can you name?
When any of us victims actually attempts to take action to protect ourselves, we are arrested, beaten, tazed, etc etc etc.
I'm older, have a small business and work mostly for cash so the bastards can't steal everything.
I have to get my snowblower going to clear the snow the goddamn city plowed back ONTO my property.
If I put it back in the street where THE CITY GOT IT TO PUT ON MY PROPERTY, the assholes will fine me.
Fuck 'em, I'll do it anyway.
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» RE: "WE SHOULD" AGAIN, "WE SHOULD"
Posted by: monkeywrench
» RE: "WE SHOULD" AGAIN, "WE SHOULD"
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Raising the GDP
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: "WE SHOULD" AGAIN, "WE SHOULD"
Posted by: John Sawyer
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sausage on Dec 29, 2008 7:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I remember reading somewhere, Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson pulled the $700 billion figure for the Troubled Asset Relief Program-- or TARP, as in throwing a tarp over John Q. Public's head so he can't see the robbery of the people's money taking place in broad day-light--literally out his arse!
With the enormous deficits Obama's proposed economic recovery package will generate, the diminution of promised middle-class tax cuts may be inevitable. This will leave the door open for Republican-paid bloviators to fan the flames of the old "tax-and-spend-liberal" canard to herd "Reagan" Democrats back into the fold.
If Congressional Democrats do not vigorously investigate--and Barnie Frank has scheduled hearings on this matter to begin in a couple of weeks--this matter and turn over evidence of criminality to the Justice Department, and if an Obama DOJ does not indict, prosecute and convict any and all bad actors, including Paulson, in this imbroglio of stock-swapping, mergers, bonuses and general incompetence and mismanagement, this "bailout," of the financial industry, paves the way for a Republican return to political power.
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» RE: Of course it's a scam
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: Of course it's a scam
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Of course it's a scam, it is not a tarp, it is a trap.
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Of course it's a scam
Posted by: Old Uncle Dave
» RE: Of course it's a scam
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sharonsylvie on Dec 29, 2008 8:12 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: loans are still available even to those who don't deserve any
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: djnoll on Dec 29, 2008 8:26 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Next, look at how McCain responded. It was a joke, and Palin was only fuel on the fire with her ignorance.
Then of course we have Reid and Pelosi, hardly people of great courage or political savvy when it comes to political history. They are and will continue to be cowards, unless they are turning on their own.
So, along comes the perfect plan for creating martial law under Bush and Cheney, which is what all the hoopla was about anyway. Under Directive 51, the President can declare martial law if there is an economic disaster that adversely affects the population. They even called Representatives and Senators, as well as, I suspect, directly threatened Reid and Pelosi from the beginning with exercising this option.
These morons-in-chief were planning for Americans to run the banks by broadcasting bank failures and spreading the panic about home value collapses, etc.. The media was completely taken in, but Americans, thank God, remained calm, listened to their bankers, stopped shopping finally after 7 years, and started paying attention. They saw who handled themselves well in a crisis, and even though they were ignored, demanded that the banks not be bailed out under the TARP.
So, now it finally comes to light that the President and the Cowardly Congress, with the help of the media, scammed us and gave away a trillion dollars of our money. If it were not what Bush wants, I would advocate taking to the streets and demanding our money back, but since I have no longing to live one day longer than necessary under Bush, I do not recommend doing anything that would allow him to declare martial law.
What I will do, though, is ask every citizen of this country who re-elected a Senator or a Congressperson who voted for TARP to demand a recall election, and for every citizen whose Senator was not up for re-election to plan to either recall or vote out in 2 years those people. As for Obama who voted for this bill, I hope, sir, that you are more capable of undoing the damage and waste caused by this blackmail you were subjected to during the campaign with your policies than Reid or Pelosi were in standing up against it.
As for the banks, let them fail. Do not give these thieves one more dime! Tell your Congressional delegation to vote NO on the additional $350 billion!!! The banks will survive, the economy will survive (although it will be much weaker than in the past), and we will recover. Let them be sued in federal courts for malfeasance and fraud by their customers and their stockholders. Let the CEOs do serious jail time in places that are not Club Feds, right alongside Paulsen, Bernanke, and all the others that let this happen through their arrogance and greed.
The local, community banks will be able to shoulder the burden and keep us all afloat. They have in the past and they will in the future. It is time to re-instate rules and regulations that limit banks to operating only within their home states and to break up these banking conglomerates again.
It is time for us as citizens to take back control of our personal finances and stop listening to snake oil salesmen with get rich quick schemes and start doing what we used to do best: build our own companies using hardwork and sweat and community support because we created jobs that way and true wealth built on things like goodwill and good American-made products. We can do it, and if that is what comes out of this scam, then we will be all the better for it.
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» Hahaha, I love it.
Posted by: dockboy
» RE: Hahaha, I love it.
Posted by: djnoll
» RE: Of course this was a scam!!!!
Posted by: G.Achin
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sonofloud on Dec 29, 2008 9:09 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The dems in congress sold it more than the republicans,
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: No,
Posted by: oregoncharles
Comments are closed-
Posted by: xallanmillerx on Dec 29, 2008 9:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Why No Mention of Obama?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Yes.
Posted by: oregoncharles
» Very simple
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» "Very simple" only for the simple minded
Posted by: PointMan
» RE: Obama vigorously sold endless Wall Street bailout on the way to become "president"
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Obama vigorously sold endless Wall Street bailout on the way to become "president"
Posted by: PointMan
» RE: Now there you're wrong.
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: Now there you're wrong.
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Now there you're wrong.
Posted by: PointMan
Comments are closed-
Posted by: gandolfshep on Dec 29, 2008 9:36 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: deborah conner on Dec 29, 2008 9:44 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
("Hail Sarah!" I see on Freeper blogs and websites. Go look.)
Charities and Universities have been hit hard by these suddenly discovered scams. Wonder. Have any Theocratically EnRaptured Churches lost their shirts?
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» RE: Have any Theocratically EnRaptured Churches lost their shirts?
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: GuitarBill on Dec 29, 2008 10:07 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Banks and financial institutions are extractive "industries"; they do not produce wealth; they produce debt--period.
Thus, banks and financial institutions are essentially parasites which feed off a collective host--the consumer.
Unfortunately, the Ivy League trained MBAs who run the banks and financial institutions are not intelligent enough to understand this fundamental relationship.
The fact is that the banks and financial institutions encouraged corporate policies that result in stagnant wages and diminished opportunity to find gainful employment, which is vital to the health of the host (ie., "the consumer").
Meanwhile the banks and financial institutions encouraged speculation in commodities and, especially, housing, which resulted in ever increasing property values.
The host (consumer) has finally perished as the result of dangerous imbalances created by the misguided policies mandated by the parasite (banks). Today, the host (consumer) is drowning in debt caused by shrinking wages, and ever rising commodity and housing costs.
That said, I find it very hard to believe that the banks and financial institutions implemented these destructive policies without knowledge where this all would lead, which begs the question: Why are the banks and financial institutions acting against their own best interests?
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» RE: Why are the banks and financial institutions acting against their own best interests?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: You give them too much credit...
Posted by: oregoncharles
» Trillions at Stake say You're Way Off on This...
Posted by: Mister_PsyOps
Comments are closed-
Posted by: monkeywrench on Dec 29, 2008 10:08 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Big Lie 9/11 (terrorists alone brought down WTC and the Pentagon) was the setup: Since then we've had the Patriot Act, suspension of Habeas Corpus and Posse Comatatus, and a "terror, terror everywhere" propaganda barrage that has made all sorts of thievery undetectable. The owner of WTC made out like a bandit too, while NYC got rid of a money-losing eyesore for far less than what it would have cost to tear down that asbestos-riddled white elephant.
Big Lie Iraq, based upon Big Lie 9/11, allowed us to rape a middle-eastern country for its oil, give us a forward stronghold in the Middle East to grab even more oil, and produce a gold rush for Bush/Cheney-connected contractors.
Big Lie Afghanistan was supposed to pave the way for a pipeline to access Caspian Sea oil and gas fields. (Hasn't worked out so well but there's a bright spot: the public bought the bullsh*t about finding Bin Laden/Al Qaida, which Bush never really wanted to capture, thereby maintaining the "Boogy Man" so necessary to support other Big Lies.
Big Lie New Orleans: Failing to act quickly or responsibly after Katrina was to pave the way for forced urban development, to run poor blacks out of town and convert The Big Easy into The Big Theme Park for high rollers. So far so good.
Big Lie Credit Crunch is the last-chance pilfering of government coffers (correction: credit line. Our government is BORROWING those trillions!) by Bush/Cheney and their Pirates of Wall Street (longest running black comedy in NYC.) This is Bush/Cheney's version of stealing all of the china and silverware on their way out of the White House (along with the rugs, furniture and chandeliers.)
I'm sure that I'm leaving out many other Big Lies; after all, space is at a premium. But one fact is crystal clear: our government under Bush/Cheney has been morphed into nothing less than one of the largest criminal enterprises in human history.
What pains me to no end is that, apparently, the public-at-large does not understand this, or care. They think that their approaching poverty is their own fault or because of "market forces" ("free market" is yet another Big Lie). The only success that Bush can legitimately own, along with his circle-jerk mainstream media, is the systematic dumbing-down and brainwashing of the american people to believe this, or to be so confused that they don't know WHAT to believe. Mission accomplished.
At least, Obama isn't telling any Big Lies – like "My administration will prosecute these bums for their crimes." His style is to reconcile. In different times, this would be nice, but under current circumstances, it could lead to another Big Lie: that we can move on from this without consequences. Indeed, the consequences of the Bush Crime Family getting away unscathed will be many, and disastrous.
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» RE: Big Lies, One more:
Posted by: channing
» The Bu$h Gang simply cannot walk away from these crimes!
Posted by: aussidawg
» HOPE will not manifest without Accountability
Posted by: common intelligence
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Posted by: ohb0b on Dec 29, 2008 10:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
O. Henry
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Posted by: grkjr on Dec 29, 2008 10:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: minority agreement
Posted by: aussidawg
Comments are closed-
Posted by: PaulK on Dec 29, 2008 11:15 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The good thing about blowing a trillion on a crooked premise is that it's only money, and we can always borrow or print up more. That's true, isn't it?
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Posted by: Ghoulman on Dec 29, 2008 12:10 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But I knew the 'credit crunch' talk was out-of-the-blue. Thank you for pointing out how the Bush Junta has simply created yet another Straussian narrative (you know, a lie) to cover the facts and their actions.
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Posted by: goodsensecynic on Dec 29, 2008 12:31 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Instead of sorting out who really killed JFK or what is actually behind commercial disasters from Enron to the current global “credit crisis,” opinion leaders prefer to brand as paranoid anyone who sees, at the very least, patterns of mutual interest within the convoluted network of power that is sometimes described as the military-industrial-congressional-financial-ideological complex, also known as the corporate ruling class.
It would therefore be both presumptuous and futile to lay out a theory in hopes of identifying exactly who is doing what to whom, with the result that ordinary people are hurting as seldom before in living memory.
I know of only two things to be said with confidence. First, from Socrates and his egregious “noble lie” to Goebbels and his vile “big lie,” ideologues have tried to persuade people to be complicit in their own oppression. After all, rulers benefit when the ruled believe that a patently unfair society is both just and necessary … it saves needless expenditures on secret police and torture chambers. Second, although no post-subsistence society has ever achieved equity (much less equality) in the distribution of wealth, the gap between rich and poor is growing in most late capitalist societies, and the middle class is being especially squeezed in the United States.
So, although I cannot claim to know the details of the various banking bail-outs and the plans for rescuing bloated and bull-headed manufacturing firms, I do know that, since about 1970, corporate profits have risen, productivity has increased, but the earnings of middle and working class people have — with occasional hills and valleys — generally flattened if not fallen.
Meanwhile, having luxuriated in an economy that produced huge profits and provided proportionately more “welfare” to corporations than to citizens, it seems that it is now time to put the marshmallows on the sweet potato pie. The “trillion dollar scam” may simply be the largest transfer of “taxpayers’ money” to those who seem to have lost control of the day-to-day operations of a system that served them splendidly for the past half-century and more.
Whether it is better to call contemporary elites a plutocracy or a kleptocracy is for others to decide. Whichever, citizens must now do their best to cast off the market mentality and the illusions it provides about how the economy works. We must also begin to demand some real changes. It is not enough to restore the economy to past glories, for it is fatally compromised by toxic policies and procedures.
Instead, those unwilling to think seriously about the benefits of a genuine social democracy might at least consider this simple step: let us separate savings banks from investment banks. The virtual economy of baseless credit (“derivatives” and the like) should be set apart from banks that deal with the real economy of savings, consumer loans and so on. Then the high-rollers and speculators would at least be kept away from honest, working people who would not be brought down with them when their criminal schemes go awry.
If the economy needs to be stimulated (and, absent establishing sane limits to growth, it probably does), tonic measures can only be taken from the bottom up. Anything else just adds to the pot of gold at the top – which can almost magically be transformed into a crock of something much more organic when it falls from great heights and lands heavily upon the heads of those already disadvantaged by the current system.
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Posted by: maxpayne on Dec 29, 2008 12:39 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: goodsensecynic on Dec 29, 2008 12:46 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Instead of seeking to sort out who really killed JFK or what is actually behind commercial disasters from Enron to the current global “credit crisis,” opinion leaders prefer to brand as paranoid anyone who sees no more than patterns of mutual interest within the convoluted network of power that is often described as the military-industrial-congressional-financial-ideological complex (also known as the corporate ruling class).
So, it would be both presumptuous and futile to lay out a theory in hopes of identifying exactly who is doing what to whom, such that ordinary people are hurting as seldom before in living memory.
I know of only two things that can be said with confidence. First, from Socrates and his egregious “noble lie” to Goebbels and his vile “big lie,” ideologues have tried to persuade people to become complicit in their own oppression. After all, rulers benefit when the ruled believe that a patently unfair society is both just and necessary … it saves expenditures on secret police and torture chambers. Second, although no post-subsistence society has ever achieved equity (much less equality) in the distribution of wealth, the gap between rich and poor is growing in most late capitalist societies, and the middle class is being especially squeezed in the United States.
Although I can't claim to know the details of the various banking bail-outs and the plans for rescuing bloated and bull-headed manufacturers, I do know that, since about 1970, corporate profits have risen, productivity has increased, but the earnings of middle and working class people have — with occasional hills and valleys — generally flattened if not fallen.
Meanwhile, having luxuriated in an economy that produced huge profits and provided proportionately more “welfare” to corporations than to citizens, it seems that it is now time to put the marshmallows on the sweet potato pie. The “trillion dollar scam” may be the last and the largest transfer of “taxpayers’ money” to those who seem to have lost control of the day-to-day operations of a system that served them splendidly for the past half-century and much more.
Whether it is better to call contemporary elites a plutocracy or a kleptocracy is for others to decide. Whichever, citizens must now do their best to cast off the market mentality and the illusions it provides about how the economy works. We must also begin to demand some real changes. It is not enough to restore the economy to its past glories, for it is fatally compromised by toxic policies and procedures.
Instead, those of us unwilling to think seriously about the benefits of genuine social democracy might at least consider this simple step: let us separate savings banks from investment banks. The virtual economy of baseless credit (“derivatives” etc.) should be set apart from banks that deal with the real economy of savings, consumer loans and so on. Then the high-rollers and speculators would at least be kept away from honest, working people who would not be brought down with them when their criminal schemes go awry.
If the economy needs to be stimulated (and, absent sane limits to growth, it probably does), tonic measures can only be taken from the bottom up. Anything else just adds to the pot of gold at the top – which can almost magically be transformed into a crock of something more organic when it falls from great heights and lands heavily upon the heads of those already harmed by the current system.
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Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com on Dec 29, 2008 1:51 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To those outside the majority that is fooled all the time this suspicion wasn't recent.
Unfortunately you can fool all of the people some of the time and a majority of people all of the time.
Patriot Act, OBL (who still doesn't have 9/11 on his FBI poster), Iraq, the bailouts, telecom immunity, NAFTA, WTO, World Bank, free trade, etc, people are dumb.
Just get people afraid and a majority will do what you want.
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Posted by: Pirate1 on Dec 29, 2008 2:34 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Whatcha wanna bet...
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Whatcha wanna bet... more money is needed
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: yellow on Dec 29, 2008 3:50 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The reason is clear. The chronic stagnation of the US economy has been so deep for so long that the twin stock market/housing market bubbles of the last decade and a half was required to sustain the consumption necessary to keep the US economy even barely afloat. The Minsky Moment, when cash hoarding by banks and liquidity preference constrains new lending is here and digging itself in deep. The time for action is now!!
Lest anyone seriously doubt the depth of the credit crisis, consider the following. New lending has dropped off and commercial banks are extending mostly existing underused credit lines available to long standing business customers. Between 2001 and 2007 a sudden surge in the use of untapped existing credit availability by business of 50% has occurred with internal revenues insufficient to sustain normal business operations. Furthermore, a surge in cash hoarding by banks has been noted within the commercial banking system. And because of the freeze up in the securities markets, outstanding loans, which formerly became securitized, now remain on commercial bank balance sheets giving the sudden appearance of an increase in new lending. In fact, what we are seeing is a decrease in securitization. Finally, most interbank lending is held to be trade in repurchase agreements which doesn't count as normal interbank lending activity.
The sad truth about late capitalism is that it is chronically stagnant. The reason is that it cycles up and down and doesn't reach equilibrium at full employment. This is because the opportunities for profitable investment, the core of the system's dynamic, decrease over time with each 8-12 year full cycle concentrating the economy and income distribution more and more. Effective consumer demand is constrained and thus investment, employment and growth. Government stimulus in the form of public investment is needed.
Historically, beginning with FDR, the US federal government has been reluctant to spend more than 14% of the GDP on non-defense, non-social security/medicare related new public investment as a stimulus. A stimulus roughly the size of 20% of the US GDP will be needed for ongoing success. It will also need to be invested in sustainable new sectors that can restructure our economy like health care and "green jobs" that save energy costs and create overall end use efficiencies. We only need the political will.
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» RE: OK folks its more like this...
Posted by: richard0a37
» RE: OK folks its more like this...
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: OK folks its more like this...
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: remoran on Dec 29, 2008 6:18 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A medium of exchange.
What is US money?
US money is fiat (legal tender) backed by nothing. Money as debt is the operative term here.
How is money created?
The Fed creates it as needs warrant.
Who prints our money?
The Fed.
Is the Fed part of government?
No, it's a private cartel protected by government.
What is a scam
An illegal ripoff of our "money" orchestrated by the Fed and abetted by Congress and the secretary of the treasury.
Proof? Bloomberg is suing the Fed to find out where two trillion dollars have gone.
Any questions?
Addendum: Wake up and learn why things are the way they are by doing due diligence to discover what money is and how it's manipulated. As the X Files states. The truth is out there.
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» ? is What's a Fed. Reserve "Note"?
Posted by: common intelligence
» Money is not only a medium of exchange, that is your first mistake.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: remoran
Posted by: racetoinfinity
» RE:my link
Posted by: racetoinfinity
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Posted by: empirePie on Dec 29, 2008 6:32 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The greed is great gangsters
marked in by the Madoff pranksters
need renewal for their banks
since the levers of the levers that they shrank
are lookin kinda blank no thanks to Hank
Welcome to the home of the TARP family
starting the harken of Hank and the barkers of bank
for credit claims debt and debt is for let
and the let bets get sliced and diced
while the wants get enticed
to flimflam St where the bet is the beat
do you feel the heat?
Will the false flagged crisis be a la Hank?
Will credit be on the run or on the take?
Are there some Madoffs on the make?
Got cake?
Eat it.
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Posted by: owlsliveintrees on Dec 29, 2008 7:55 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course is you completely misunderstand the situation you'll likely come to the conclusion that the bailout was a scam. It may be, and it may not be, but the idea that Mr and Mrs. Good Credit Rating can't get a loan to buy a house or a car is ridiculous. And NOBODY is arguing that. Nobody i've read or watched anyway.
Who's BUYING all the houses that are sold for 50% lower than they were two years ago? People who applied for, and received mortgages.
This "scam" talk ignores what the majority of economists say, that a couple months ago, the wheels were dangerously close to coming off. Now who knows what would have happened, but in no way do the continued lines of credit to credit-worthy consumers indicate that the bailout was somehow a "scam."
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» RE: Where did the author get this idea?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: quite right Lauren
Posted by: Ghoulman
» NO, it's completely goof
Posted by: owlsliveintrees
» RE: YES, it's completely 'A' goof...
Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: YES, it's completely 'A' goof...
Posted by: owlsliveintrees
» RE: rubbish
Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: rubbish
Posted by: owlsliveintrees
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Posted by: owlsliveintrees on Dec 29, 2008 7:58 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course is you completely misunderstand the situation you'll likely come to the conclusion that the bailout was a scam. It may be, and it may not be, but the idea that Mr and Mrs. Good Credit Rating can't get a loan to buy a house or a car is ridiculous. And NOBODY is arguing that. Nobody i've read or watched anyway.
Who's BUYING all the houses that are sold for 50% lower than they were two years ago? People who applied for, and received mortgages.
This "scam" talk ignores what the majority of economists say, that a couple months ago, the wheels were dangerously close to coming off. Now who knows what would have happened, but in no way do the continued lines of credit to credit-worthy consumers indicate that the bailout was somehow a "scam."
Why does Alternet constantly post straw man articles under the guise of contradicting orthodoxy.
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» RE: Straw Man - trolls live in trees
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: RickW on Dec 29, 2008 8:22 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: wardropper on Dec 29, 2008 9:04 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Because I mentally put myself in the place of a ruthless dimwit and thought, "What would I do if I were Bush?"
The rest was easy.
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Posted by: leafsong1 on Dec 30, 2008 2:04 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: talkville on Dec 31, 2008 4:35 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This time 'round, rather than red-coats, cannon and logistics, what was sent was culture, manners, sense and sensibility -- the Red Skirt. Don't lie! Everybody Bought it... on Credit of course!!
How genteel these new and up-and-coming new role-models, scripts, etiquettes and customs!! Oh, what Class!! It's Versailles! It's London! It's Paris!! Tea-parties and Salons, Courtiers and Courtesans, haute-cuisine and oh, such refined tastes!! Oh, these New Americans!! Swoon or be exiled!! Play or be cast out!! Pretend or be dismissed!! Act or be fired!.
What's all this got to do with the "credit crunch"?
Do not think me all too curmudgeonly and flippant on this score! Think about it slowly. As they say, put "two-and-two together" -- slowly, carefully, autonomously!
Mommy England wants the Wayward Son back! She's 'stewed in her resentful juices for nigh on 400 years now! Do not think her gentle, courteous or magnanimous!! She's sadistic, she wants revenge and she will get more than a couple of Pounds of Flesh, make no mistake!!
It soon will dawn on all of us who do not OWN (e.g. who are not BANKS): we are, formally, all commodities. A plant, an animal, a machine, or an instrument, all equivalent before the Law and UNDER it! Fascism- gentle or firm, but fascism nonetheless.
Credit crunch?? Hah!! Guess what, Citizen? They OWN us -- Land, Women, Men, Children and Plant and Equipment. Slavery and Servitude are the only HONEST descriptions of each of our conditions. ENCLOSURE!! Same as 1600's, same as 1700's, same as 1800's, same as 1900's, same as 2000. They do it very, very well, and they continue to do it, from time immemorial. They are a special kind of Creature: Cannibals, Slave-Traders, Stationary Nomads, Thieves, Pirates, Murderers.... but: PIOUS!! Well-Mannered!!, Polite and Civil!! They are the Cultured Parasites of History.
Credit Crunch??? Hah!! Credit CRUSH!!
Without a shot. On Credit, so-to-speak.
I am not, I will not, I cannot, be OWNED. If die I must, so be it. Liberation NOW!!
The generous and smiling happy 'win-win' friendly man and woman you've been used to, is calling in his or her chips. GOTCHA, citizen!! A hug? Nay! an Enclosure. Care? Nay! an Entrapment. Love? Nay! Control!! Intervention? Nay! Gang-rape.
Credit crunch?? Nay! Slavery, citizen!! Get used to it; teach it to your sons and your daughters. SOME are to grow to be Man or Woman; MOST are to grow to be COMMODITY. Use Value; Exchange Value. "Traditional" values....
That Action set forth and enumerated in the Declaration of Independence? Null! Void!. The Constitution of the United States of America? Strictly interpreted -- 1st: Property. Then, maybe and according to moods and temperaments, people. The United States of America is now a dolled up, dressed up, sex-worker and whore -- on sale to the highest bidder. Credit crunch? Hah! Enclosure and Divestiture. Dispossession and Enslavement. A 'world leader' with the ethics of a snake, a fox, a parasite...
It's just another Enclosure, citizen.
Choose your side.
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Posted by: vspoils on Jan 1, 2009 11:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
END THE FED! The Fed is the root of our so-called financial crisis. It's only a crisis if you're on the wrong end of the printing press. The FED, a consortium of private banks, secretly owned because they won't divulge the list of shareholders, prints money out of thin air, thanks to the Creature from Jekyl Island, and then LENDS IT BACK TO US! Now how can we get a piece of that? THAT is the biggest scam in history. Central Banks all over the world have been copying this scheme since the Bank of England invented it. Our forefathers decried it and forbade it by writing it into the Constitution that only Congress shall have the power to coin money and regulate its value thereof. But as always, Congress eventually caved in for the last time. Three Presidents (Lincoln, Garfield, Kennedy) have been assassinated trying to abolish the Central banking system. Then they created the illegal IRS to enforce the usury payments known as income tax. Look it up, the 16th Amendment was never properly ratified. Income is defined as profit and wages are defined as a trade for your time. Watch 'America: Freedom to Fascism' on youtube. Also, a must see: 'Money Masters', the very best video on how money works and is created.
Always remember, the FED IS A PRIVATE BANK! It is not audited, not truly, it is answerable to no one. Congress just begs it for information, but these thieves just do what they want, they are under no legislative obligation to do anything. Their loyalty lies with the shareholders, which in large part are -- guess what -- foreign interests! Nice, huh?
Until we enforce Article II, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution we will remain screwed for good, folks, so you better learn something about monetary policy and get marching. Otherwise, get your tin cups and warm slippers ready.
Those FEMA camps they've been building (over 800 at last count) aren't for the kiddies, they're for you and Grandma when the feces hit the fan and the food runs out. Military Commissions Act? We can have martial law for almost no reason, economic crisis will do nicely, thank you very much. And those 20-30k troops they're now training for "domestic security" aren't there for the refreshments, they're now your very own impersonal bodyguards. They will keep your body guarded behind that razor wire.
Read everything you can about debt-based currency. We need a return to sound money, backed by the full faith and credit of the USA (i.e. the people). I'm not a gold supporter, gold can be manipulated on the markets. Greenbacks are the way to go. Anyway, that debate is for after we decide how high to hang the bankers who got us into this mess.
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Posted by: Zeugitai on Jan 2, 2009 1:49 PM
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In America, truth is anathema. Fantasy and lies in euphemisms and metaphors is all that people want to consume.
I can't think of a more insane empire in the history of the planet.
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Posted by: anok on Jan 2, 2009 2:21 PM
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The lenders have tightened their grips on the lending process. Obviously, with a decline in employment, salaries, a rise in basic living costs etc..banks and other lenders are skittish about handing out more money that may or may not be repaid, on top of credit lines that are already under strain. That means that they have changed the parameters of what is, and isn't acceptable credit for borrowers. Which follows that those who had previously been able to borrow no longer can.
The fact that loan applications have decreased does not negate the changes being made. Many people are being shut out before even getting to the application process, and, many people are simply trying to refinance or negotiate loan terms - none of which requires an application right off the bat. These people are being denied left and right. try renegotiating your rates or limits with your credit card company - a few years ago solid customers could do that no problem. Now companies like Amex are decreasing their customers credit limits based on their shopping - not credit - habits, and refusing to lower or renegotiate percentage rates. Many other cards and mortgage companies are doing the same.
No, it's not a "scam". The bailout was a poor decision, but not a scam.
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