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Democracy and Elections

The Presidential Debates Are a Scam

By David Bollier, OnTheCommons.org. Posted October 15, 2008.


Every four years, the two parties and news media collude in this PR spectacle. It's time for citizens to reclaim control.
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Have you wondered why the presidential debates don't present any serious ideas or encourage any substantive exchanges about policy and political philosophy? Have you noticed that the events resemble a whirring jukebox of familiar sound bites -- a highly produced, tightly scripted affair with with no surprises and little passion?

There's a reason. Both candidates and their political parties want it this way. The debates are not the production of some independent third party like the League of Women Voters, the host university or news organizations. They are co-produced by the Democratic and Republican Parties themselves, who have ingeniously disguised their actual roles by nominally delegating control to the Commission on Presidential Debates

The Commission sounds like some venerable group of eminent graybeards and experts. Not so. It is a group of party apparatchiks whose express goal is to broker the terms of the debate in order to advance and protect each candidate's interests. For the 2008 debates, the Commission negotiated a 31-page memo of understanding that lays out in precise detail the rules of stagecraft, questioning, follow-up, audience deportment, and other conditions. The contents of this memo, however, have not been disclosed despite requests by citizen groups.

We do know the upshot of the memo, however: a series of carefully orchestrated PR events that pretend to host a wide-open, vigorous debate.

The truth is, no one can really learn much about the candidates or their ideas when the format has such rigid time limits on answers and predictable questions from mainstream news anchors. The moderators are constrained from asking tough follow-up questions, and the audience is forced to sit like zombies in a funeral parlor. Even with the so-called "town hall meeting" format, there is no genuine back-and-forth dialogue between candidates and citizens. Nor are there any direct candidate-to-candidate exchanges. Third-party candidates have been summarily excluded, so there are no disruptive questions that might expose the limited vision of the two major parties. (Ralph Nader was famously excluded from the 2000 presidential debates because his citizen support was deemed too insignificant to make a difference in the election.)

In short, the presidential debates are shams if they are to be considered debates. They are meant to simulate honest, spontaneous exchanges of ideas but in fact, their real goal is to prevent any spontaneity, depth, complexity or worrisome surprises.

A more open format would give candidates greater latitude to express themselves at length and with nuance. But that's apparently what the two parties really don't want. An open format leaves too much room for candidates to be caught off-guard or exposed as superficial. An open format would require candidates to be able to go beyond repetitious talking points and rehearsed accusations and one-liners.

In 1998, former CBS news anchor Walter Cronkite wrote, "The debates are part of the unconscionable fraud that our political campaigns have become ... the candidates participate only with the guarantee of a format that defies meaningful discourse." It is a testament to the state of mainstream journalism that leading news anchors happily agree to participate in these farces. It's great PR exposure, after all.

One of the best debunkings of the modern presidential debates is George Farah's book, No Debate: How the Republican and Democratic Parties Secretly Control the Presidential Debates (Seven Stories Press, 2004). Farah charges that the Commission on Presidential Debates "acts as an effective screen for the two parties to evade citizens' most pressing questions, and absorbs the political costs that would otherwise accrue to the parties. This function of the CPD, as an arms-length organ of the parties, amounts to a shocking institutional rigging of the electoral process that degrades our democracy and signals worrying bipartisan contempt for transparency in this country's highest elected office."


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See more stories tagged with: obama, mccain, debates, reform

David Bollier is the Editor of OntheCommons.org; activist and writer about the commons; author of Silent Theft, Brand Name Bullies and Viral Spiral.

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The Whole Political Process is a Scam ...
Posted by: mmckinl on Oct 15, 2008 1:00 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What we have is a duopoly running the country. They differ in their social agendas but the rest is a Kabuki for the corporate power behind the thrown, the lobbying and the massive political contributions. The Main Stream Media feeds the population the propaganda and the Congress feeds the corporations the tax breaks and the sweet heart deals.

What we have are paid corporate agents impersonating a Congress and a President. There are exceptions like Bernie Sanders, Dennis Kucinich and a handful of others but the vast majority are bought and paid for. That's why this country is in so much trouble.

I see Nader was on News Hour last night. This is really too little too late. Thank God for the internet and Alternet for a real analysis of what is happening. But even here on Alternet I receive flack when I point out that the debates are shams with questions screened and scripted by the two parties or the exclusion of at least the leading third party candidate.

Wake up people, the two major parties will never change until they are forced to. Their priorities will be their corporate contributors and their hold on power to the exclusion of the Common Good and perhaps the country itself.

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Agreed
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Oct 15, 2008 1:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Imagine going for a job interview, and making up your own questions and answers beforehand...And then being able to talk about whatever you feel like during the interview...And then spending another ten minutes bad-mouthing the guy they interviewed before you...And then being hired with flying colors. Must be nice.

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Scam or not, I can't wait for tonight's debate.
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin on Oct 15, 2008 1:54 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama is going to kick Unfit McCain's wrinkled old ass all the way back to Sedona.

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Media Is Complicit in Hiding the Truth
Posted by: 911FalseFlag on Oct 15, 2008 2:50 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just like the debates in 2000 and 2004 presidential elections, the media is in the pocket of the military industrial oil central private banking complex, which supports the McCain/Palin ticket.

The media will spin in a positive light all of the lies put out by McCain and Palin. However, it does not matter who wins since Obama/Biden have sold out to the military industrial oil central private banking complex.

The fact that Obama/Biden say nothing about 9/11 being an inside job, the Federal Reserve Bank being the cause of the current financial crisis and every financial crisis prior to this one from 1913 on, Electronic voting machines being completely hackable both on the machine level and on the transmission of the precinct votes to the central tabulator and that this administration lied to attack Iraq.

Why none of these candidates can speak out is simple. They are all to varying degrees complicit with the cover-up of the above mentioned most pertinent problems in this country. If I know about these underlying causative problems, then they must know.

I think a reasonable response to the current situation would be for the populace to not vote in the election. Then whoever wins would not be a legitimately elected president.

Go to 911insidejob.net

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» ex-lax69 Posted by: weathered
We get more info from SNL!
Posted by: Karl.Ben on Oct 15, 2008 2:51 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What we have is a two party dictatorship. A 9% congress and a 30% president (on the good days) and the parties have the nerve to tell Americans what they will do for them. In two words - screw us! and we are excited about these tickets?

Debates are just fluff. Nothing is said in any detail. All policy discussion is so broad that none of it is ever really implemented.
The people never get a real handle on what the candidates real course of action will be.

So all we'll see is that Obama is inexperienced and hangs out with shady groups and McCain is another 4 years of Bush and is out of touch. Thank you for those revelations!

At a time when we need "real change" the real change candidates are sidelined and never had a chance to make it into the major debates.

God forbid they did, they might actually say something!

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» RE: We get more info from SNL! Posted by: Karl.Ben
Don Quixote
Posted by: Don Quixote on Oct 15, 2008 3:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
US elections are Hollywood entertainment to maintain the illusion that there is democracy in the US, insteead of a hidden oligarchy. The US is a giant Banana Republic. See Zeitgeistmovie.com and you will understand. Only 5 million people have seen the film. When 50 million Americans have seen it, perhaps things will really start to change. Not before.

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View from abroad
Posted by: inkcap on Oct 15, 2008 5:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's strange watching the debates from a British perspective. Here we have a weekly TV debate in which leading politicians participate, facing questions which they do not know in advance, from audience members.

A respected TV host and audience members both ask pertinent and often awkward follow up questions (it's relatively easy to join the audience when its in your area and the show tours the UK constantly).

The media follow up regularly on apparent policy inconsistencies, gaffes etc. Senior ministers appear on it and come election time there are specials usually featuring party leaders and the prime minister facing questions for an hour at a time, with no restrictions on topics covered.

It's a totally different model (the US election is debated robustly too). Frankly it makes your presidential debates look like a farce. Anyone interested can have a look at the latest edition here:

linked text

or if the link's expired, navigate to the most recent episode from here:

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/

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» RE: View from abroad Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» Colbert & Stewart Posted by: Dboy
Has Anyone Been Allowed To Ask The Presidential Candidates Two Questions About Money
Posted by: opmoc on Oct 15, 2008 5:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Where Has All The Money Gone That Has Caused This Financial Crash?

2. Where is All The Money Coming From That is Supposedly Going To Solve It?

Yesterday according to the headlines in the UK Daily Mail (which I find exceedingly hard to believe), the UK Bankers paid themselves £17BN in bonuses last year. As these scams have obviously been going on for several years, it kind of explains where the money has gone - except where exactly did they put it?

They can't have put it in their own banks - as it would still be there.

So where is it? In the Cayman Islands or Switzerland?

And exactly what form does it take - presumably just a very large string of digits in various bank's computer registers.

So now the UK Government has borrowed an absolutely enormous sum of money to fill out the raided bank accounts

And Governments all over the World are copying Darling Gordon's masterplan to save us all from total impoverishment.

So who if anyone is lending all this colossal amount of money?

Don't say the Saudi's and Chinese - we already owe them far more than we could possibly ever pay back - and they simply wouldn't be so stupid to fall for the same trick again - and even they don't have the enormous sums involved.

So presumably the trick involves just typing numbers on a computer screen in places like the Bank of England - and magically creating money out of nothing.

This action provides a further hint as to why in real terms most people are considerably worse off than they were after the Second World War - when in theory the UK was almost totally bankrupt - yet could provide a decent free education (including paying you to go to University), free health service and the average working man would earn enough so as to be able to buy a house on mortgage and have several kids - and yet still the Mother could afford to stay at home to bring them up - so that they didn't all turn into delinquents - (or maybe they did and they are employed in the City)

Basically we have all been fcuked over by the ruling elites and the entire polictical and financial system of the globalised world economy is a corrupt cesspit.

Last week I actually thought it likely that all the UK banks would actually stop issuing any money to anyone.

Brown might have just saved the World from total financial collapse - but I don't think the Satanic Cult ruling the US is too pleased about it.

Isn't it somewhat amazing these vast sums of money can be magiced out of nothing at times of financial crisis? Yet there is insufficient money to even maintain the infrastructure of places like Schools?

Teenage kids actually volunteer to do the work themselves for nothing but the promise of a ticket to see a rock concert.

Doesn't that illustrate something quite fundamental?

What the fuck have you been doing with our money?

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ODC
Posted by: Axiom69 on Oct 15, 2008 5:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The open debate coalition is a great idea. Too bad it has about as much chance of success as a third party candidate. The two parties will never agree to a real honest debate. To do so would risk exposing the fact that the two parties are one in the same. Neither has any real interest in left or right, liberal or conservative ideals. It's all about the power and money. Left and right are just the two roads that lead them to the same destination.

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THANK YOU !
Posted by: maxpayne on Oct 15, 2008 5:50 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank GOD there are reasonable people in addition to the 3rd party candidates who speak up against this kind of duopoly. The Republicans and Democrats have gotten LAZIER over the years and giving Main Street the MIDDLE FINGER even as they pretend to "represent" them. It's too bad that 99% of those that do vote will pick between D and R.

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» RE: THANK YOU ! Posted by: nochicagoboys
More an empty ritual than a scam
Posted by: MartianBachelor on Oct 15, 2008 5:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only reason for optimism I can see at this point is that they're forecasting some 70 million will watch tonight's edition, which suggests some 60% of the electorate may not have firmly made up their minds at this point.

I may be reading too much into it, but perhaps the anxious and rebellious mood of the citizenry these days, coupled with the lack of either of the major party candidates to show any real understanding of the situation or any substantive leadership abilities the last several weeks, has the MSM at least giving alternate voices a little bit of a hearing. The media blackout on Nader lifted a little bit yesterday, as he was on CNN, Fox, CNBC, and the News Hour.

Nader on the News Hour (audio only)

I think there's still the possibility of either or both Nader and Barr costing someone a couple of the closer states, those it's difficult to tell because Monopoly Politics has such a stranglehold on things that few if any of the polls even bother asking about 'unapproved' candidates.

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Sham as politics......
Posted by: Spiritgirl on Oct 15, 2008 5:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It used to be that the League of Women Voters moderated the debates, unfortunately, George H.W. Bush was asked a question during a town hall format and he couldn't answer, because he couldn't relate - that was the end of the independent forum!

As Americans have busier and busier lives, politics and politicians have gotten more and more removed from our daily thought processes. Along with this has come the corporatization of our media, and irresponsibility, lax moral authority, and yes greed within our executive, legislative and judicial branches of government!

First Americans need to demand more over-site from elected officials, we need truly public funding of elections, and real reform from the lobbiests that continue to write our laws based on their own (or the corporations they represent, or the richest among us) personal agendas, we the people also need to start paying attention to what these people that we have elected are doing! Only when this happens will America (and it's laws) work for Americans!

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No matter who is nominated & elected
Posted by: chlamor on Oct 15, 2008 5:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
, the policy will be endless war & military spending, further upward transfers of wealth, with the corporate elite controlling news coverage & essentially writing all legislation.

But this policy can be cloaked under 2 different costumes. If a Democrat is elected, as seems likely, the foregoing will take place with more smiles, and more pseudo-liberal rationales. Obama will claim to be introducing "health care for the people," or "protecting the environment," or some such BS. The militarism will be presented in milder tones, emphasizing themes like "stabilization" rather than "killing our enemies."

On the other hand, if the president is McCain, there will be no smiley face. There will be more in-your-face militarism, with overtly blood-thirsty rhetoric. There will be more blatant pandering to the Religious Right.

That's the only "choice" the system will permit.

What do I want to see changed in the political landscape? Well, on a daydream basis, I'd like to see the US government overthrown by the people of the United States, with the society reorganized to function on a socialist basis. I'd like to see all the war criminals & war profiteers put behind bars for life, with all their personal assets confiscated. The Supreme Court should be replaced, being an illegitmate body that has egregiously betrayed its mission. The corporate media should be replaced, reorganized from the ground up. Many large businesses should be nationalized, starting with the oil companies & Wall St. The military should be downsized by about 90%, with virtually all overseas bases dismantled. The CIA should be abolished. That would be on the first day. Give me a few minutes to think about the second day.

"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch"

What we have is the continuation of a duopoly in which the differences between the two sides of the duopoly are far less important than their similarities. There is a largely successful establishment effort to control the political process so that the range of options is severely limited. We have the outward semblance of democracy without the reality of it.

For example, studies show that a large majority of Americans, including majorities who identify with each major party, believe our national priorities are screwed up and we shouldn't be spending most of our resources on the military. But the Presidential candidates of both major parties, and probably at least 95% of the Congressional candidates, support the screwed up priorities. Obama and McCain have virtually identical positions calling for greater increases in the military budget and an increase in the active duty forces.

And despite rhetoric making it sound as if their positions are very different, when you look closely at the real positions of the candidates, there's very little difference on Iraq either. And both have consistently supported Bush's requests for funding the war.

AFAIK, in his entire political career, Obama has never once taken a position for anything that could be called meaningful change. And he's been backtracking on previous positions for even marginal change.

The establishment relies for their continued power on the people assuming you have to choose between the duopoly candidates. This guarantees that the establishment wins and the people lose.

We must stop trying to figure a lesser evil, and take a position of not voting for evil. We should be measuring them against our understanding of what this country needs, not against what another wing of the establishment is presenting.

Any vote, no matter who you vote for, is a vote in favor of the status quo. When you vote you are saying you support a system whose deck is stacked in favor of the criminals. The only way we will ever have real change is if everyone stops supporting that system.

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» The change begins here... Posted by: alternetrose
I am told I should vote Democrat
Posted by: chlamor on Oct 15, 2008 5:58 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
, simply to get rid of the Republicans. Or I should vote for whatever candidate is opposing the incumbent, simply to throw the bums out. All of this, of course, is simply a well-oiled shell game, for as the historian Carroll Quigley wrote, there is no difference between the parties, they are essentially cut from the same cloth. According to the elite who run things behind the scenes, “the two parties should be almost identical, so that the American people can ‘throw the rascals out’ without leading to any profound or extensive shifts in policy… It should be possible, to replace one party with the other party which will pursue, with new vigor, approximately the same basic policy.”

"What is the ballot? It is neither more nor less than a paper representative of the bayonet, the billy, and the bullet. It is a labor-saving device for ascertaining on which side force lies and bowing to the inevitable. The voice of the majority saves bloodshed, but it is no less the arbitrament of force than is the decree of the most absolute of despots backed by the most powerful of armies."

~ Benjamin R. Tucker

We need to remind ourselves of Albert Einstein’s admonition: “we can’t solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.” Trying to reform the political process makes no more sense than trying to reform the carnivorous appetites of jungle beasts. If it is your desire to put an end to the violent, destructive, corrupt, and dysfunctional nature of government, stop wasting your time by focusing on the current management of the system.

As physicians have learned from the study of the body , a disease often indicates, not a permanent deterioration, but an attempt to restore an equilibrium that has been disturbed, and to recover natural functions that have been thwarted or suppressed. Without some overt manifestation of pathological symptoms, permanent damages might result before the disease could be detected and adequate measures taken to overcome it.

The voting ritual serves to disguise the symptoms. The patient is gasping for air. A face lift won't help.

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Debate, my ass!
Posted by: zooeyhall on Oct 15, 2008 6:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks soooo much for this article! I couldn't agree more with the premise the these much-touted "debates" are little more then scripted opportunities for party-line sound bites.

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School Cancelled
Posted by: Godfather89 on Oct 15, 2008 7:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I go to Nassau Community College which is just like 5 minute walk to Hofstra North Campus. Pissh, my school is cancelled and my college has been turned into a friggin security base. This is priceless, not only do us citizens have to pay taxes for this war and bailout but now we have to pay even more money to The Town of Hempstead to cover for the millions being spent on security for the same people who believe in The Bailout and The War. I really hate both, Vote Third Party this year!

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» RE: School Cancelled Posted by: VZEQICVA
Why 'vote'?
Posted by: Romantic Violence on Oct 15, 2008 7:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why vote in the lesser of two evils when both are fubar? Isn't that how Hitler became Chancellor because he was more palatable than the Socialists or the Communists? Voter boycott? Fuck the House of Misrepresentatives...

1789

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» RE: Why 'vote'? Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» RE: Why 'vote'? Posted by: nochicagoboys
SO THE DEBATES AREN'T PERFECT
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Oct 15, 2008 7:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Granted,sometimes these people look just plain foolish. Think of the alternatives. Many countries have just one candidate and you'd better get off your arse and vote or they'll find you and you'll be taken out and shot. It's all very efficient. And so the great American three ring circus that we run every four years is still alive and well. True, we entertain the world along with ourselves, but the numbers of people coming here from foreign countries far outweighs the number of Americans moving out of the country. We've lost so much in the last 8 years, it's time for the world to like us again. And they will if Obama wins. He's a favorite all over the world. So I'll bite the bullet and watch the debates and hope that McCain blows up. He probably won't. The next event will be Obama's 1/2 hour on 10/29. This I wouldn't miss. Thanks, ANNA

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McCain's Duty?
Posted by: robert.noll on Oct 15, 2008 7:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
During the last debate John McCain stated: "I know how to catch Bin Laden". Why is he keeping this a secret. Isn't it his duty to tell us how to catch Bin Laden. Is he protecting America's number one enemy for political gain?

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» RE: McCain's Duty? Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: McCain's Duty? Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» RE: McCain's Duty? Posted by: Dboy
» RE: McCain's Duty? Posted by: willymack
» Farce Posted by: Axiom69
Why is Open Debate Info Posted 10/15/08,
Posted by: zepher on Oct 15, 2008 9:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
too late to write to candidates???? The Open Debate Coalition article was written on Oct. 10, 5 days ago and too late to respond to for today's debate. Their site is at:

http://opendebatecoalition.blogspot.com/

You can read the signatures of organizations that have founded this blogspot. Impressive and long.

Yeah, Alternet, though a good spot for lots of news is not without flaws. Too late for making changes for Nov. 4, 2008 election, now we wait 4 more years for Open Debates.

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Paul Bigioni
Posted by: Bigioni on Oct 15, 2008 9:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The debates are a silly excercise in managed PR. I expected fireworks of some sort from the Palin-Biden debate and got none. Canada's federal election candidates' debate was the same night. It was amazing by comparison. The candidates, including our Prime Minister, were seated at the same table and were required to respond to the arguments of the other debaters. There was real exchange on issues of substance, and, at the end of the debate, there was no little blood on the floor. It was so good that I fear our politicians won't submit to the same format next time. The Biden-Palin debate wasn't actually a debate at all. It was a predictable recitation of talking points. I guess it will stay that way as long as the parties are too chickenshit to have a real discussion. The Canadian debate was superior in another respect: it included third party candidates. Canada's 3 main parties tried to shut out the emerging Green Party, but the public uproar was too great and they backed down. U.S. debates need the participation of third parties like Nader to keep the mainstream candidates honest. The debates won't get any better until serious issues are deemed to be as important as shiney white teeth.

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Who is really to blame.
Posted by: douglashoyt on Oct 15, 2008 9:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You the voter, the citizen. You have let this happen, and you have done nothing to change it.

First admit that voting for a demo or Repub is voting for the status quo, ie, no change.
Then:

Vote Nader for real change.

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» RE: Who is really to blame. Posted by: Bliss Doubt
Debate preview: Penguin Vs. Batman
Posted by: leafsong1 on Oct 15, 2008 11:57 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/17908

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Lets import some improved democracy,
Posted by: sirios on Oct 15, 2008 12:24 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
our domestic product is sub par.The winner take all mentality supports conflict and devisivness. Living in Germany a few years ago gave me quite an education in world politics. Germany has 5 or 6 parties that are active at any given time. These parties get a percentage of the vote and that percentage affords them that much say in the govt. For example, the green party almost never receives enough votes to elect their candidate for chancellor, but routinely achieves their agenda[s] because of the strong support from the populous. Every party is represented in the debates and personal attacks are political suicide.

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Open Debates Are Crucial
Posted by: suckerbeagle on Oct 15, 2008 6:47 AM   
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Thank you for the no-holds-barred article on the debates. Most people don't know the history of how we got to this ridiculous media circus and what happened to the League of Women Voters. Third Party cadidates and independents are not in the debates and most of the polls don't ask people about them. It's true that Nader is breaking into the media a bit these days and that's great. But there's been an enormous effort and much fundraising of small amounts of money from many citizens to help Ralph get there. Thousands of people are working their butts of to get the Nader campaign out there in front of people in the face of the media and polling blackout.
After the elections many of us will work on opening the next debates and for fair elections as well as other issues.
Maybe the worst thing of all is the dumbing-down of the information that Americans get. And it's not just the issues that get glossed over, it's the fact that the coporations have taken over our country. No one is going to say that out loud, even as we watch the government give away our tax dollars with out so much as a public hearing.

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Proposal for a solution
Posted by: alternetrose on Oct 15, 2008 2:13 PM   
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» RE: Proposal for a solution Posted by: alternetrose
Philo The Sophist
Posted by: robigreg on Oct 15, 2008 4:57 PM   
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I agree with you: the VP and P debates are not debates, and the secret control exercised by the parties guarantees that. What I would like to see is a dialogue format; it would be interesting to see if the candidates are able to carry on a genuine dialogue, with its civilized give and take, and opportunities to see a little more about how a candidate handles his/her own thinking and that of their opponents.

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What Neither Candidate Will Tell You
Posted by: Miachilany on Oct 15, 2008 5:26 PM   
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Here's an interesting article for those watching tonight's debate on the economy, I doubt either candidate will discuss this important issue (www.financialsense.com/ fsu/editorials/martenson/2006/1217.html). Based on the US Comptroller's estimates the US is basically insolvent to the tune of about $50 trillion when considering our obligations on future social security and medicare payments (i.e., the PV in today's dollars of expected benefit pay-outs less the expected tax revenues based on current tax rates). It means we have to either increase taxes, print money (hyper inflation and / or big dollar decreases), and / or reduce benefits (less benefit payments, reduced coverage, older retirement age, etc.). You know increasing taxes are not in the cards, so get ready for a worthless dollar and working until your 75, you may want to go long in gold in the meantime.

The big US debt increases and budget deficits started with Reagan and have been going strong ever since, Americans are addicted to debt and politicians and the populace will not pay higher taxes even when needed. The above article actually provides the link to the 2006 US Comptroller audit report that discusses the $50 trillion liability (http://fms.treas.gov/fr/06frusg/06frusg.pdf). For 10 friggin years the government has not been able to express an opinion on the US financial health, primarily due to serious financial / accountability problems at the DOD (pg 27 & 28). There were 5 out of 24 Agencies the Comptroller could not audit in 2006 due to insufficient information being provided, the DOD, Homeland Security, Energy, State, and Aeronautics and Space. If you don't think there were fucked up things going on in those first four agencies relating to war payouts and other Bush cronie pork, I have a bridge in Alaska to sell you (question: does the war profiteering and corruption in Iraq make even a conservative sick?).

Lastly, this article is great: www.cbsnews.com/ stories/2002/01/29/eveningnews/main325985.shtml. On September 10, 2001 (coincidently, the day before 9/11), Rumsfeld gave a speech where he stated "according to some estimates we cannot track $2.3 trillion in DOD transactions." We should have listened to Ike who warned America of the negative influences of the Military Industrial Complex and not McCain who wants to freeze all budget items "except" for defense (I guess when you have a couple trillion dollar war and an itchy trigger finger, you have to be prepared). How about if we freeze defense until we can figure out where those trillions of dollars of going and we fund social security and Medicare to a greater extent so average Americans do not have to work until their 75. Who gives a fuck about $20 billion in pork barrel spending when we’re wasting trillions? The republicans have screwed up this country and rest of the world pretty good over the last 8 years, can't you see that train wreck keep piling up with McCain and a light at the end of the tunnel with Obama?

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OBAMA IS CAUGHT IN A POLITICAL VICE GRIP
Posted by: cori on Oct 15, 2008 5:50 PM   
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With the miltary industrial compleX, the drug companies, health insurance companies and all the other corporations sucking us dry with an economic strangle hold on our economy, it is questionable how much Obama can actually do. But we must get out there in big numbers and vote! We cannot let these guys roll over us. We need to reelect those in congress who think more about their own pockets and less about us. So inorder to do this we need to educate ourselves about what these guys are actually voting for. Patrick Leahy is a Democrat from VT and I will be watching how he votes closely and what he does when the next president is in power. There are other Democrats out there who might be better and we can exercise some influence if we want to. For example the Blue Dog Democrats always vote the Bush agenda and will follow the corporate agenda. We need to keep trying.By the way cutting capital gaines tax has already been done and in an economy that's in a housing slump it won't be much help. LIVE FREE OR DIE IS TAKING ON A NEW MEANING FOR MANY AMERICANS THESE DAYS - ITS NOT JUST A SOLGAN FOR PEOPLE IN NEW HAMPSHIRE.

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Of all the debates, nothing about hemp ! Otherwise, fine.
Posted by: maxpayne on Oct 15, 2008 9:33 PM   
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Both candidates are for "clean coal" and "safe nuclear energy"! If the American people and the candidates would check out "Stop the Coal Plant" and "Physicians for Social Responsibility," they will see that coal, in fact releases thousands of pounds of Mercury into the Air thus Causing Autism, blindness, brain damage etc, and there is NO SAFE WAY TO STORE NUCLEAR WASTE! If McCain and Palin really cared about Autism, then they would support the 2008 Industrial Hemp Act which was sponsored by Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich, instead of Mercury filled coal. McCain wants the taxpayers to subsidize 45 nuclear power plants; he cannot guarantee that those plants and their waste will be free from terrorists attacks or natural disasters for tens of thousands of years! Both candidates voted to bail out Wall Street!

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Debate Scams & Debate Truths
Posted by: bessie on Oct 15, 2008 9:36 PM   
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While these events aren't real debates or town hall meetings, we are given the chance to observe a candidate's intellect, personality, and ability to perform under pressure and stress. Wow - tonight between McTurtle and Obama the Hopeful really brought the message home. McTurtle was nasty, impatient, and badly prepared while Obama was cool, prepared with his details, and balanced with his reactions to the outrageous attacks. It's a tough time for people everywhere so it's important to see our candidates beyond the sound bite or the magazine article or the glossed over interview. That being said, the debates are a scam and if Obama were white, the polls would be showing an 95% lead. McTurtle is just that replusive and the debates gave viewers a chance to watch this in living color.

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D & R = Good Cop Bad Cop
Posted by: left_libertarian on Oct 16, 2008 5:26 PM   
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the charade continues

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