Jesus never spoke out against gays.

The "Christian" churches have to delve into Leviticus and other old testament books to find justification for their bigotry. They should just admit to themselves that they're reactionary Jews rather than Christians.

God forbid [snicker] that they actually follow Christ's teachings...

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Many UCC United Church of Christ congregations are Open and Affirming, our notation of full welcome of gay and lesbian people into the life and the leadership of our progressive and faithful Christian fellowships. Indeed, bi-sexual, transgender and all neighbors who seek the grace and peace of a loving God- who created us all as we are - are most welcome in our congregations.

I am a member of Lake Oswego UCC in the Portland, Oregon area. Yesterday we expanded and extended our 15 year old Open and Affirming Statement to specifically include our neighbors whatever their or our gender expression.

And while LOUCC is not a mega - church, there are UCC congregations of every size that are leaders in such inclusion in states all over the country.

Amidst all the hysteria over what Jeremiah Wright did say and in what context he said it at Trinity UCC in Chicago, remember that each local UCC congregation is has the freedom and the responsibility to select its own leadership and set its own sense of priorities. Many UCC congregations are Open and Affirming and take pride in that. Check out linked text for more information and for a church finder link.

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are also Welcoming Congregations.

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Christians have, in the Pauline Gospels of the New Testament, specific repudiation of homosexuality.

This irrefutable partion of Scripture represents a challenge to an increasingly relativistic society. The fact that the Christian Gospel makes some people uncomfortable does not alter the fact that these words exist in the Bible. Not just in the Old Testament: the New Testament as well.

Should a church welcome all? In my opinion, yes.

Should a church endorse practices explicitly repupdiated in the Christian Bible?

That is the question being "forced" by those who, welcome or not, are bringing their show to church.

I do not believe in forcing my views on another. It is equally reprehensible for others to force their views on me. It is the inescapable conclusion that this forcing of views antithetical to Christian teaching is not about respecting the personal choices, preferences, predilictions of others: It is an attempt to force others to adopt these views.

In short, this proposed spectacle is not about honoring the choices and lifestyles of gay people -- it is about dishonoring and disrespecting the views of some who might or might not agree with them.

It's social engineering on an offensive scale.

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There would be no "changing of the guard" and hat after all of these old bible thumpers died off that would be the end of all of this silliness. People its all fake please wake up.

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Become an atheist. The Non-God that atheists don't believe in welcomes people of all types, races and sexes. But not believers. That's because there is simply nothing to believe in. Stop hanging out with gay-haters and women-bashers and you won't feel that way.

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As is so often the case, whenever the subject of homosexuality appears, someone issues false statements declaring the Christianity or the Bible condemns homosexuality, unequivicably, etc.

Such claims are simply false.

There are a handful of passages that people with a bias against GLBTQ humans use to fabricate an interpretation that supports their bias. However, in each case, the passages in question are not about homosexuality in general, and only possibly about specific instances of homosexual intimacy.

The two Paulian texts - from Romans 1 and 1st Corinthians - are not about homosexuals. Though greek words were in common use when Paul lived and wrote, he did not use these words in either text, or in any of the texts attributed to him. Romans 1, in context, describes in detail fertility rituals practiced in the worship of Cybele - Paul condemns sex as a worship practice. Many conservative Christians employ fraud to make their case, deliberately and without excuse taking one or two sentences out of context to fabricate a false interpretation, deliberately avoiding the repeated descriptions of the worship of idols that define Paul's remarks. A theological position based on fraud is not a Godly one.

Paul's letter to the Corinthians uses neither of the common greek words for men who have sex with men (erestes and erenamos), but rather, a term that means 'soft, fine' that appears elsewhere to describe fabric (malakoi), and a word Paul made up (arsenokoite), and which subsequent writers used in a complaint about the way a man treated his wife. It is not rational or honest to argue that Paul meant 'men who have sex with men' when he clearly chose not to use the two words that would have conveyed the concept to his readers.

More importantly, the very idea of harassing, defaming, libeling, persecuting, harming or hindering people on the basis of their sexual orientation violates Christ's core teachings (Love God with your entire self, love your neighbor as yourself, this is the whole of the law).

Finally, Jesus gave a specific test for evaluating the accuracy of teachings about God (Matthew 7:15-23)- the idea of good trees bearing good fruit, evil trees bearing evil fruit. The condemnation of homosexuals and homosexuality is an idea that only bears evil fruit, it does not come from God, and those who teach such things are false teachers.

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I will make it simple for you:

There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
-- Galatians 3:28

This is how God sees us. Or does not see us. God is far bigger than any box we can create for Him.

The views expressed here and in other fora are, to one degree or another, our prejudices, dearly-held fetishes, hotly-defended world views and personal creeds which we are loathe to abandon.

The Scripture, "He who sits in the heavens shall laugh" seems designed for such exchanges.

It's good to differ. What never fails to amuse me is how quickly and bitterly we would silence those whose views and beliefs diverge from our own.

It is this -- and the alomost comical (and certainly innacurate) twisting of the Scripture which is the Christian creed that elicits an occasional response from me.

If you believe the Bible, you believe the whole Bible, its proper exegisis and its intent. It is a basic principle of hermeneutics that the main message of scripture is not subordinated by a lesser meaning or (worse) a deliberate misinterpretaion based on convenience or prejudice.

That sort of twisting is exemplified by many of the posts to which I've responded, and by the article which precipitated them.

The most honest post was the one advocating atheism. That writer is correct: rejection of the Gospel ends the matter.

My sincere advice is to, rather, approach the Scripture honestly, allowing it to speak directly to you, no matter who you are, or what you believe.

I believe God gives us that freedom -- no matter where we are.

That said, it would be polite, at the very least, to leave others to worship as they please.

Isn't that what you would want?

Peace,

Phil

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Per the response post above, "Offering poison..."

To be clear:

I am responding to the columnist, who describes a concerted effort by various advocacy groups to confront and "push" Bible-believing churches to endorse the viewpoint of said groups. I object to this effort as disingenuous. It doesn't involve any "hate." It means I disagree with these people (and the writer) and advocate the reasonable position that people leave each other alone.

Ironically, the churches targeted by these groups pretty much believe the same way. As I wrote above, this is a problem in search of a solution (or a grievance in search of a problem, take your pick).

I am sorry you don't like my opinion regarding your hermeneutics, however I do disagree with your interpretation of Scripture, as does any basic Bible scholarship. As I stated, I am addressing the specifics of this article, and don't want to start slinging Scripture. But I repeat what I wrote you: your interpretation of the Scripture is sophistry, and gravely in error. But I think you know that.

I disagree with you on this point, and with those who adhere to this view. Does this mean that I "hate" those who hold to this view? Not at all. I respect your right to approach faith in however you wish. I am simply not obliged to agree with you.

More below.

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My belief is that God challenges us in the areas we hold most dear. (Parable of the Rich Young Ruler, for instance.) Where our treasure is, there our heart is, also. The Bible is a book of comfort, but it is also a book of discomfort. Christ promised division, as well as perfect love. There is judgment and there is forgiveness and the Bible is clear that both of these come from God.

Christ and Paul were also crystal clear that the Law stands. The Law convicts -- it convicts everyone, not just the people we, personally, may not like, or with whom we disagree.

I agree with some of the posters who assert that Christians can be highly-selective in the verses they use, and the parts of the Bible which they choose to emphasize. This is true of liberal Christians, conservative Christians and non-believers alike.

The Bible, however, is not selective. It is comprehensive, it is often uncomfortable to read, and it is a book, ultimately, of liberation. It is an ontological masterpiece, as befits the Creator who inspired it. In short, it is, in my opinion, a very good book.

The sobering news then, is this: We all stand convicted under the Law.

The Good News is this: Through grace we are set free.

It is an ongoing process.

Peace.

Phil

Helpful verses to understand the relationship of Christians to the Law:


[Christ speaking]: “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Matthew 5:16-18

[Paul writes, concerning himself, as a Jew]...Concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Philippians 3:5-7


Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.
Romans 13:7-9

Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 13:9-11

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?
James 4:11-13

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I don't believe in Religion, but on the other hand I believe in a higher power.
I live by the Golden Rule.
I try to be fair and do right by others. I find you make fewer enemies and more friends.
And I have peace of mind..what little mind I have left.

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True Christians understand how the Bible (and God) consider homosexuality a gross sin.

People will twist scripture to support this dirty and sinful state, but the Bible is CLEAR.

READ IT AND WAKE UP!

Anyone who practices this, deserves death.

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Now and then I comment on this or a related subject. The response is fairly uniform, and offers an interesting view into the mind-set of some self-proclaimed advocacy groups.

In a sentence, it is this: "You do not agree with me or condone my choices, therefore you hate me and I am your victim."

It is this sort of aggressive, self-victimized mindset that seems, along with an apparently insatiable appetite for attention, to propel the actions of a few rabid and impolite persons to occasionally band together to assault the views and beliefs of others.

Once so-organized, these groups then attach themselves to people (or churches in this case), going quietly about their business and then insist on receiving an endorsement from said persons or groups of their lifestyle choice de jour.

If the endorsement fails to materialize, these groups (attention-starved and mono-focused) then complain vociferously that they, in not gaining the affirmation and approval they seek, are the victims of hatred and intolerance.

My question to such groups and persons is this:

What about tolerating (and leaving be) those who believe differently than you?

Is that so hard?

Ah. Thought as much.

Peace.

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How about we accept that the Christian religion defines gays as an abomination, and tell that hatemongering religion, where to put their bible?

As an "abomination", quite frankly, I'm quite ok with the Christians not accepting me. Because I don't accept THEM.

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Philip's claim:
"The New Testament is specific about the prohibition of homosexuality. The Pauline Gospels are unequivocal about this.

Like it or not, this is part of Christian teaching."

Has been shown to be false. There is indeed, more than one possible interpretation, and in fact, the belief 'homosexuality is sin' is the interpretation least in accord with the gestalt of Christian teaching.

To date, there has been no attempt by the above-mentioned person to directly substantiate or validate his claim, and attempts to do so circuitously have only confirmed that Christianity is not defined by any position, pro or con, regarding sexual orientation or its expression.

Additionally, it has been demonstrated that considerable obfuscation, dishonesty and avoidance is a vital component of any attempt to defend 'homosexuality is sin'.

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Mega-churches serve a need for people to find spirituality (they offer religion, not spirituality) (see my comments above as to what a more evolved spirituality looks like) - and - they offer much needed community in an America that is atomised (hyper-individualistic and honoring community only through the nuclear family) and materialistic culture and society. There is a great need for more authentic spirituality and (progressive) community in the U.S.

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I have given up trying to engage our Chat Room Friend in a discussion of Bible exegesis. (I do think the discussion has done some good, as it might have sent him scurrying to the dictionary.) In any event, Friend posed a Bible question, which I answered with Bible verses. He didn't like my answer. He wants another. He will have to ask someone else. Eventually, he will find someone who gives him the answer he likes, and that will provide, perhaps, the affirmation he seeks.

The fact remains, the Bible says what it says. Honest hermeneutics make Friend's convoluted explication laughable. However, that is not, in the end of any significance.

What is significant is this:

Sunday School Bible study tells us that

1 All stand convicted under the law

2 All are saved by grace

3 Love fulfills the law

4 God is love

(See posted Scripture above in bold, for further explication.)

That ought to end it. But of course it won't. Maybe it's not supposed to.

As I also posted, the Bible tells us that God does not even see us in terms of race, status or gender. In heaven we will not have the bodies we have now, nor will we have the sorts of human relationships we have on earth -- and which we quarrel over with rabid enthusiasm. This debate, then, is all but meaningless in terms of God's view, in God's ontology. What matters is if we are able to grasp the gift of God's love and salvation.

Again, if one rejects the Gospel, so be it. I hope that, at some point, that changes. If one accepts the Gospel, however, one accepts the whole Word.

Happily, that Word is one of liberation and peace.

Peace,

Phil

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Philip, I don't believe you want to spew hate or promote prejudice, but that is what you are doing, and it causes despair and dehumanization to those who fall under your categorization of what is normal, right and Christian.
Please consider your words and research before you speak because a Cameron might be listening.
I am Christian and I am gay, but for years denied it to myself. An anti gay rally held by James Dobson; the prayer request, of a mom for her gay depressed young son; and a Gangster Disciple who surrendered his colors to me were the turning point in God convicting myself that I needed to accept myself as He created me. I was excluded from my church even though I am celibate, married 33 years to a beautiful woman, and was considered a mentor to other pastors.
I have prevented several youth from taking their life. Most are Christians and one was only 12, all are gay.
A boy of 16 was going to jump off a cliff.
A youth of 15 tried to hang himself and later slit his throat. He lived, only to be sent to another reparative therapy camp to cure him of his homosexuality.
A girl of 17 tried to burn herself to death.
A boy of 12 was going to kill himself because he could no longer stand the ridicule and beatings at school.
A youth of 14 cried on my shoulder because he was so hurt by the teasing and beatings he got, while no teacher ever seemed to be around when it happened.
A straight middle school youth, his sister is gay, was told by his teacher in front of his entire class, " You must be gay like your sister". The teacher said this because the boy was wearing an earring.
A mother told her son, of 15 or 16, who just came out to her, "I hope you go to prison and get raped".
Another High School youth laid under his bedroom sheets for two weeks, with his dad's loaded shotgun in his mouth because of the ridicule and betrayal of his "best" friend at school, who revealed he was gay, when in fact he was not sure of his sexual orientation at that time.
The son of a fundamentalist preacher, who accidentally came out at age 13 in an argument, tried to make his son straight. Of course it was his dad's duty to ask the church to pray for him.
This youth who used to be happy and go-lucky is now on anti depressants.
I could go on, but I am too numb about the shooting of a youth named 15 year old Lawrence, who was gay, by his 14 year old classmate. Children are not born evil, but they have to be taught to hate. The blood of Lawrence is on the hands of all those who rail against gays.Young lives have been destroyed because we teach hate, unfortunately too many under the justification of religion, the Bible, and God.
As a former Baptist pastor my work was never genuinely received by my churches in my work with the Blacks, especially during the Civil Rights movement; and in my work with the syndicate and Mafia, here and in Russia; and by the Crips, Bloods, Gangster Disciples, Vice Lords, and Latin Kings. These churches always had a reason why it was not their ministry and that it would be harmful because my activity would tear up the church.
All these, my kids, could tell the difference between genuine acceptance and token acceptance.
Then there is the story of Cameron, of England, a 10 year old youth who hanged himself because he felt so alone and ridiculed. He hanged himself with his own belt. Why the sense of hopelessness? Because he wanted to be a girl.
And now the murder of Ms. Stewart, a threat to no one and a friend to many-but she was transgendered.
More than one Christian has told me that "if it were legal I would stone you and your kids [gay] to death".
Oh, what the hell, I guess the death of just another faggot is good for a civilized, one nation under God, society.
I wonder what Cameron was thinking about before he grasped his last breath?
Sincerely,
Nelson blaine

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My "religion" is whatever principles guide my life. My "God" is that which I worship above all else, when I can identify it. I've gone from Sunday School Christian to UU to Humanist to Independent, and now Gaian. "Faith" means to me irrational belief.

danrob@efn.org

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In the end days, it will be worse than sodom and gomorrah.

If you believe the law was done away with the messiah, you are in error.

Think not that I come to destroy the law, but to establish.


--rjs

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Christianity indeed leads it's followers to believe that the messiah did away with the law, that the messiah was the father.

Yahweh's laws are not done away with. The messiah's own words stated so. I suppose the homosexuals believe in the rapture as well. Or some big devine intervention that will eliminate their sexual perversion and sins. It's unscriptual. There is a price to be paid to knowingly continue in the sin. Yes, you are still loved, but the sin is indeed not loved.

No political agenda based on race, sex, etc.. is worth the mindless chatter. And that is all this author writes about. It's a shame.

--rjs

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If you say you are a believer, you BELIEVE the Word of God.

Paul's words were not Paul's opinions, they were GOD'S WORD.

2Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God

One may call himself anything he wishes to, he may call himself a Rolls Royce, but it doesn't make it so, does it

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

If you call yourself 'Christian' you MUST conform to, and be conformed by His WORD. Or you are a liar.

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar

Those are God's Words, not mine, go argue with Him.

The 'church' today has flown over the cuckoo's nest!

http://thechurchflewoverthecuckoosnest.blogspot.com/

In the service of the TRUTH, the LIVING WORD, JESUS CHRIST,
Craig

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I'm sorry Debbie but it is futile to change your Church so you can become more spiritual. Different Church, Same God who very clear that homosexuality is a Sin. The only way for these women or anybody for that matter to get closer to God or become more spiritual is to repent their sins, resist the temptation, and to open their hearts to Jesus Christ. They must attempt to live by the Bible and the Ten Commandments. When we or a Church tries to change God's word it only falls away from the Lord. There is only one Absolute Truth and that is the Bible. God doesn't change or evolve, it up to us to change to suit him not the other way around.

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