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Why the Torture Bill Matters

By Molly Ivins, AlterNet. Posted September 28, 2006.


The detainee bill now in the Senate throws out legal and moral restraints as the president deems necessary; basic principles of decency and law.
Ivins

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Also by Molly Ivins

Molly Ivins AlterNet Archive
An archive of the great progressive columnist's writings.
Jun 21, 2007

Stand Up Against the "Surge"
We are the people who run this country. We are the deciders and we need to raise hell.
Jan 12, 2007

Now They're All For Bipartisanship
Apparently, the people of this country did not elect liberals to Congress last week. Nope, they elected populists!
Nov 15, 2006

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Oh dear. I'm sure he didn't mean it. In Illinois' 6th Congressional District, long represented by Henry Hyde, Republican candidate Peter Roskam accused his Democratic opponent Tammy Duckworth of planning to "cut and run" on Iraq.

Duckworth is a former Army major and chopper pilot, who lost both legs in Iraq after her helicopter got hit by an RPG. "I just could not believe he would say that to me," said Duckworth, who walks on artificial legs and uses a cane. Every election cycle produces some wincers, but how do you apologize for that one?

The legislative equivalent of that remark is the detainee bill, now being passed by Congress. Beloveds, this is so much worse than even that pathetic deal reached last Thursday between the White House and Republican Sens. Warner, McCain and Graham. The White House has since reinserted a number of "technical fixes" that were the point of the putative "compromise." It leaves the president with the power to decide who is an enemy combatant.

This bill is not a national security issue -- this is about torturing helpless human beings without any proof they are our enemies.

Perhaps this could be considered if we knew the administration would use the power with enormous care and thoughtfulness. But of the over 700 prisoners sent to Gitmo, only 10 have ever been formally charged with anything. Among other things, this bill is a CYA for torture of the innocent that has already taken place.

The first reported case of death by torture by Americans was in The New York Times in 2003 by Carlotta Gall. The military had announced the prisoner died of a heart attack, but when Gall actually saw the death certificate, written in English and issued by the military, it said the cause of death was homicide. The "heart attack" came after he had been beaten so often on this legs that they had "basically been pulpified," according to the coroner.

The story of why and how it took the Times so long to print this information is in the current edition of Columbia Journalism Review. The press in general has been late and slow in reporting torture, so very few Americans have any idea how far it has spread. As is often true in hierarchical, top-down institutions, the orders get passed on in what I call the downward communications exaggeration spiral.

For example, on a newspaper, a top editor may remark casually, "Let's give the new mayor a chance to see what he can do before we start attacking him."

This gets passed on as, "Don't touch the mayor unless he really screws up."

And it ultimately arrives at the reporter level as, "We can't say anything negative about the mayor."

The version of the detainee bill now in the Senate not only undoes much of the McCain-Warner-Graham work, but it is actually much worse than the administration's first proposal. In one change, the original compromise language said a suspect had the right to "examine and respond to" all evidence used against him. The three senators said the clause was necessary to avoid secret trials. The bill has now dropped the word "examine" and left only "respond to."

In another change, a clause said that evidence obtained outside the United States could be admitted in court even if it had been gathered without a search warrant. But the bill now drops the words "outside the United States," which means prosecutors can ignore American legal standards on warrants.

The bill also expands the definition of an unlawful enemy combatant to cover anyone who has "has purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States." Quick, define "purposefully and materially." One person has already been charged with aiding terrorists because he sold a satellite TV package that includes the Hezbollah network.

The bill simply removes a suspect's right to challenge his detention in court. This is a rule of law that goes back to the Magna Carta in 1215. That pretty much leaves the barn door open.

As Vladimir Bukovsky, the Soviet dissident, wrote, an intelligence service free to torture soon "degenerates into a playground for sadists." But not unbridled sadism -- you will be relieved that the compromise took out the words permitting interrogation involving "severe pain" and substituted "serious pain," which is defined as "bodily injury that involves extreme physical pain."

In July 2003, George Bush said in a speech: "The United States is committed to worldwide elimination of torture, and we are leading this fight by example. Freedom from torture is an inalienable human right.

Yet torture continues to be practiced around the world by rogue regimes, whose cruel methods match their determination to crush the human spirit."

Fellow citizens, this bill throws out legal and moral restraints as the president deems it necessary -- these are fundamental principles of basic decency, as well as law.

I'd like those supporting this evil bill to spare me one affliction: Do not, please, pretend to be shocked by the consequences of this legislation. And do not pretend to be shocked when the world begins comparing us to the Nazis.

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Molly Ivins writes about politics, Texas and other bizarre happenings.

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Y'all already are like the Nazis
Posted by: may261989 on Sep 28, 2006 5:55 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You have a compliant population who act as cheerleaders for a criminal leadership. But y'all dont care, why should you when you can switch off and watch Desperate Housewives.
Your media is dominated by reichwing spin merchants. Your so called liberal media is inundated with right wing trolls ( see Washington Post opp ed columnists)
All you need now is an American version of Volksgemeinschaft....maybe its Republicanism
But dont fret just yet, you got some prime arse lickers like John Howard thrusting this greedy little nation of Australia right up America's jacksy. But just dont let any of our troops buy the bullet in Iraq huh? those damn annoying reporters might just wrestle the Australian public's attention away from the footy and Crocodile Hunter re-runs.

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Shame
Posted by: heftysmurf on Sep 28, 2006 6:11 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I first read about the ratification of this bill in the US Senate I was so disgusted that I forgot that it probably won't change much; people are so used to the US' contempt for the rest of humanity that they don't even bother complaining.

I can't see the way forward through this dire black morass; I just hope that there is something left when the US is finished.

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» RE: Shame Posted by: MTguy
List of enemy combatants...
Posted by: kelly.nickell on Sep 28, 2006 6:11 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am building my list for the witch trials.

Make your own and forward it to the Prez. He's the judge, jury, and idiot in chief.

If we all band to together and shoot for Gitmo, perahps we can bring these fuckers to their knees by all being supporters of terrorists.

Since I'm a democrat, I'm already on the list.

See you guys in Cuba real soon.

yeehaa.

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» RE: List of enemy combatants... Posted by: genetix03
THROW THE BUMS OUT!
Posted by: Sojourner on Sep 28, 2006 8:18 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Americans like me are terrified. But that's because we are between a rock and a hard place. The Republicans are not content terrorizing the "evil empire." They also need to terrorize Americans by transforming our nation by warring against the proud heritage of what was once "the land of the free and the home of the brave." I can see the smirk on Osama bin's face.

Terror, terror, everywhere and everyone needs a shrink. Insanity. The dirty dealing in Congress succeeds because those in Congress are dirty dealers. GW Bush. Top Terrorist!

And the treatment of Major Duckworth shows what the Republicans think of our troops. They're just canon fodder. Fit only to die to keep our gasoline engines running. How can Americans support an administration that treats our troops like dirt. Cutting VA benefits. Extending tours wantonly. If it weren't really happening, it would be unbelievable.

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» RE: THROW THE BUMS OUT! Posted by: Lincoln fan
» Sojourner it's true Posted by: leftisright
» RE: THROW THE BUMS OUT! Posted by: rinthy
Throw'em out!
Posted by: sapatatanka on Sep 28, 2006 10:16 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is that clause in your constitution (or is it the declaration of independence ?) which allows citizens of the US to throuw the government out?

But then, you elected these torturors/idiots at least once, if not twice. And every nation does get the government it deserves.

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» RE: Throw'em out! Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Throw'em out! Posted by: sapatatanka
» RE: Throw'em out! Posted by: Trazom
» RE: Throw'em out! Posted by: sapatatanka
» RE: Throw'em out! Posted by: Trazom
» RE: Throw'em out! Posted by: polyquat50
» RE: Throw'em out! Posted by: sunnyday
» RE: Throw'em out! Posted by: Annarisse
» Re: Annarisse Posted by: kww355
» RE: e: Annarisse Posted by: Trazom
» RE: e: Annarisse Posted by: genetix03
Nazis
Posted by: Jeanne on Sep 28, 2006 10:57 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have been saying for years -- since about the time of W's invasion of Iraq -- that this country resembles Nazi Germany. Americans are as asleep as the German citizenry in the 30s and 40s who compliantly and dociley allowed the Nazis and Gestapo and SS to rule and act in their name. With the passage of W's detainee law, congress (yes, with a little c) has given the "chancellorship" over to W. He, with sole discretion to determine who is a terrorist and who is not, and who may be tortured and for which "crimes", will soon expand the definition and applicability to US citizens, and whomever else might commit "thought crimes" against his rule. I don't for a moment believe there is a chance of reversing the direction this country has taken. Most citizens are unconcerned and unable to comprehend what we've just lost. By the time they wake up there will be no recourse for anyone. And I don't believe that this was a grand plot orchestrated by some brilliant Machiavellian mind amongst the neocon/fanatical Christian right; they simply stumbled upon an opportunity, an unfortunate convergance of circumstances that has allowed the mad men who rule us to steal the car with the keys left in it and take all of us on a disastrous joy ride.

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» RE: Nazis Posted by: MTguy
» RE: Nazis..sickofsleaze Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
medievil
Posted by: rsaxto on Sep 29, 2006 12:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why are these medievil torturers running the most powerful nation on the earth? It's because these criminals stole two presidential elections. IMPEACH THESE CRIMINALS.

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» IMPEACH THESE CRIMINALS. Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Lincoln Initiative Posted by: kww355
» RE: Lincoln Initiative Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: medievil..sickofsleaze Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» Correcton Posted by: Sparks56
land of the ?
Posted by: RJ7 on Sep 29, 2006 4:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Goodbye land of the free, down the slippery slope you go...

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Ashamed
Posted by: sassicatz on Sep 29, 2006 7:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This new torture bill makes me ashamed to be an American.

And, frankly, I'd like to see what Bush, Cheney, et. al. consider torture after they've experienced what Americans have done to these supposed "terrorists".

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» RE: Ashamed Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Ashamed Posted by: outlander55
» RE: Ashamed Posted by: 4sense
I'd like those supporting this evil bill to spare me one affliction:
Posted by: Lincoln fan on Sep 29, 2006 7:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For those opposing this bill please spare me one affliction. Don't tell me that there's nothing we can do.
Bob Reichenbach,
Director, The Lincoln Initiative.

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» RE: Conservasaurus I don't get your point Posted by: brokenbendystraw
» RE: Conservasaurus I don't get your point Posted by: brokenbendystraw
The Terrorist Have Won
Posted by: Rathan47 on Sep 29, 2006 9:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the goal of the "Terrorists" was to destroy the American way of life because they hate what the US stands for, then guess what...they've won. The USA has done on it's own what no terrorist bomb could ever do. Strip away the freedoms and rights and moral values upon which the country was built.

Osama must be sitting back and laughing...

The trouble is, good people who know the truth, who know how wrong all this is, feel powerless. And those in the middle, who are not sure what to make of all this often get caught up in the patriotic furor that has been generated.

The comparisons between the USA 2000-2006 and Nazi Germany are stark and many, and not because of the attrocities that the Nazi's inflicted. No, the killing begain later in the Nazi regime. At first, as it is now in the USA, the control of the hearts and minds of the public came first. The people were swayed, manipulated, and coerced into accepting a way of life they would never have accepted under normal circumstances. And now the USA follows in similar footsteps...

I can't remember what movie it was recently, but there was a quote in a very popular film last year that reminds me of the sad state of affairs in the US. Excuse me if I don't get it quite right...

"So that's how democracy dies...to the thunder of applause."

We reap what we sow.

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» good quote Posted by: porgygirl
» RE: The Terrorist Have Won Posted by: autumnmyst
» RE: The Terrorist Have Won Posted by: Uncle Crabby
Selling out America and civilization
Posted by: sasha40 on Sep 29, 2006 11:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Has anyone in Congress asked the administration to supply even a shred of proof that torture is actually having an positive effect in their War on Terror?

Everyone admits that torture is a useless interrogation technique. That's why it's in the Geneva Conventions, isn't it? After WWII with all its extreme brutalities, the concentration camps, the Bataan death march and the purgings of Stalin, the world community agreed this was no way to run a modern civilization. Perhaps they failed to teach this to Bush, the history major, when he was at Yale.

This Congress, which has allowed an administration with no military experience, no conscience and no empathy to run a war at their own discretion, trash the Constitution as though they were somehow above it, with absolutely no oversight and a blank check on the American people's money, should be beyond ashamed. I think I'm going to be even sicker than I already was.

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Politics and Torture
Posted by: porgygirl on Sep 29, 2006 11:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I keep hearing in the mainstream media that the Republicans are going to use "no" votes on this as a stick to beat Dems with in November. I also have heard the bill characterized (this on AP radio news) as "giving the President the authority he needs to interrogate and imprison terrorists." What makes this bill's passage all the more horrifying is that it is being characterized by the media and the Rs as the "tough on terrorists" bill.

It's exactly like being "tough on crime" or "tough on drugs"--slogans that put a shiny surface on legislation and policies that are mindlessly draconian, and don't work, and cost billions. Why must the Ds always cave in under pressure to appear "tough"? Why can't we be the party that's SMART or WISE or EFFECTIVE, and frame the damn debate ourselves?

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» RE: Politics and Torture Posted by: Trazom
Pows are Pows but the Democrats help Bush
Posted by: edith on Sep 29, 2006 12:49 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bush declared "war" on terror(whatever that is beyond Al Queda). Congress after 9/11 passed a resoltion that basically was a declaration of war, empowering Bush to do anything necessary to defend the country. Then the Iraq resolution(here of course a real declaration of war should have been insisited on).

I never understood the enemy combatant nonsense if we were at "war". If we are at war, the prisoners we captured in Aghanistan, Iraq and elswhere(Al Queda related people) are POWS. If not, we're not a war. I know this is a simplistic syllogism. But Bush claims everything is simple too. So how can he get around Geneva? Because Al Queda is not a country but a criminal organization. Fine, then you can't declare war in a legal sense against the equivalent of the mafia or a serial killer. You go after them for sure, kill them or jail them after a trial.

this enemy combatant business is absurd. you basically get a life sentence without POW protections because the Dems and Reps will keep the war on terror going forever to justify US supremacy and military spending. Yes folks you read correctly. I said the DEMS as well as the GOP.

The military industrial complex paradigm is fully backed by practically every Democrat in Congress. They have to as they are practically(yes not all, almost all) tied to the umbilical cord, or are the umbilical cord, of the State of Israel.

So anything Israel wants-perpetual war against Islam and Arabs, Democrats want. Oh yes they do.

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if there's any silver lining...
Posted by: MMiddle on Sep 29, 2006 1:09 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If there's any redeeming fact about this law, it's that it hands the Democrats a huge club with which to hammer McCain in any attempt he might make on the presidency. Whether we actually use it effectively is another question. One small step to electing a new president with the integrity and the character to right these wrongs, and return us to honoring our commitment to the Geneva Convention.

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The Other Side
Posted by: Paine48 on Sep 29, 2006 12:54 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Human rights have been raped, not only the rights of Americans, but the rights of those around the world. The leader by example has shown almost every card in their hand, leaving little to the imagination. Not only will "suspected terrorists" be stripped of any innocence but anyone with the gall to oppose the house in power, those shall be deemed traitors or terrorists and be subjected to under the rug detention and torture. This much is obvious...

The rest of the world watches now, and the only thing that seperated "us" from the "terrorists" was our respect for mankind of all races and demo's. So throw a stone at those "kidnapping" propagandists, and american citizens around the world, we just gave them the right to torture and detain.

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President can seize US citizens as enemy combatants.
Posted by: jreinhart1 on Sep 29, 2006 1:16 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Martial law is when the writ of Habeas Corpus — to have a trial by jury — is suspended. Instead, of going to the judge, you go straight to jail for a limited time.

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» Yes, but Posted by: edith
» RE: Yes, but Posted by: leftylawyer
» Exactly. Posted by: 4sense
sanctions against US
Posted by: porgygirl on Sep 29, 2006 3:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
During apartheid, Nelson Mandela and others urged the international community to impose sanctions on South Africa. Maybe we should be doing this. Who do we write to? Kofi Annan?

The only thing that gives me hope is that many people around the world still differentiate between the American people and the Bush administration. Seems to me that anything we can do to underline that this government's actions do not reflect our values--massive protests, public letter-writing, calling for the international community to slap our rabid government down--is a good thing.

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» RE: sanctions against US Posted by: sunnyday
To my American friends
Posted by: grafstefan on Sep 29, 2006 6:11 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For more than 300 years the world looked to your Constitution and your Declaration as a beacon, as perhaps the most profound social and political statement and code ever put to paper, a guide for the builders of just societies and a glimmer of hope for those who would never enjoy its fruits.

What have you done?

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» RE: To my American friends Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: To my American friends Posted by: americanreply
SHAME!- Now New & Improved
Posted by: NoPCZone on Sep 29, 2006 6:59 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now our nation not only has the historical shame of having supported great monsters of history, our own government has joined the club- officially and for the record.

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» RE: SHAME!- Now New & Improved Posted by: americanreply
Tyranny Already In Courthouses In America
Posted by: americanreply on Sep 30, 2006 2:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Americans are being tortured in the civil courts (i.e. Sarasota Florida), so I fear what will happen to all these poor detainee's with Bush's torture bill. Our entire country is in Disgrace!

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Sadists are in charge of our nation....... I think that puts it squarely in the truth!
Posted by: Prophit on Sep 30, 2006 7:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"degenerates into a playground for sadists."

So, we have a Hitler who was a sadist, a liar, a christian who spouted all the right christian justifications for what he was doing to people. The parallels are scary. And here is the bad news..... this is early in the Hitler regime. We have much more horrors to go before they are through with us.

A sadist is never satisfied...... they want more and more.... that is why the "little children" were sodomized in front of their mothers. Seymour Hersh said he could not stand the screams on the video when he was watching all of this.

This is one of the videos that the White House requested be sent to them for their entertainment. I don't think this author was that far off on the "sadism" part of his article. I think its a big part of why its even in existance. Can you imagine the turn on these guys who are alkies and druggies get from watching their unbridled power played out in pain and suffereing???????? Here read this if you don't believe me.

http://rediceblog.blogspot.com/2005/

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At the risk of getting flamed
Posted by: paulaH on Sep 30, 2006 7:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those who believe in a higher power, pray NOW for the rousting of Bush and all the rest of those evildoers.

Those who practice magick do some major spellwork NOW to do the same.

Those who believe in neither just visualize Bush and his buddies being tried for war crimes.

Maybe if we all focus our energies this way instead of bottling them up in frustration we might actually make a difference. It certainly wouldn't hurt. If nothing else it could provide you with hours of happy fantasies.

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» RE: At the risk of getting flamed Posted by: outlander55
Hey, anyone notice our Bush spin doctors are not here???? Where are you???
Posted by: Prophit on Sep 30, 2006 7:26 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Come out, come out, I really want to hear what you have to say about this weeks various abominations that passed and how you intend to rationalize these now. It would be an interesting and entertaining dance to watch. Come out, come out where ever you are!!!!!!!!!!!!

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The Nazi scourge –– "they're baaaack!"
Posted by: monkeywrench on Sep 30, 2006 8:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From Molly's article:
"Perhaps this could be considered if we knew the administration would use the power with enormous care and thoughtfulness."

No. I'm aware that you were being rhetorical, but no. We must always oppose by the strongest means absolute power being given to any one group – or person.

I suppose if I don't want to be "rendered" or "disappeared" or given "enemy combatant" status, I should add "by lawful means." Which is, of course, my intent, and a far cry from the criminals who have just perverted the law to serve their evil purposes.

This is how it began in Germany some 70-odd years ago: power wasn't stolen; it was given away by a frightened Reichstad and population.

And here we go again. . .

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Slipping, slipping, crashing
Posted by: outlander55 on Sep 30, 2006 8:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For the last 4 years America has been slipping down the slope of decline. Yesterday, Amerika CRASHED headlong into the abyss. The next step (if we can go any lower) is to start arresting politicians and ordinary citizens for opposing the despot. THIS SHOULD SCARE THE SHIT OUT OF EVERY MORAL, LAW ABIDING AMERICAN!!!!!
It is time to forget the opiates of the networks. You know, Desperate Housewives, American Idol, Nascar, etc. It is time to start paying attention. If we don't, we are no better than those who ignored the Nazis and Soviets.

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The time has arrived to think outside of the box, or else...
Posted by: SevenStarHand on Sep 30, 2006 10:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hello all,

Understanding and fixing the failings of politics and democracy for the benefit of everyone, everywhere

I know that many have chosen to write me off as some sort of a quack over the last several years. Now that this country and world has sunk to new lows and many things I warned about have occurred, perhaps fewer of you will so be so quick to scoff. Neither religious followers nor secularists have been 100% right. Perhaps now you'll try to find some common ground and seek true wisdom before the BushCo and Vatican crowd put you all in Jesus Camps.

Pay close attention, profundity knocks at the door, listen for the key. Be Aware! Scoffing causes blindness...

Politics is little more than greed, arrogance, falsehood, hero-worship, and injustice taken to extremes and organized into teams (nations, parties, interest groups, etc). It is the struggle for your group, hero, and viewpoint so you can profit at the expense of others. This forces others to do the same in self-defense, causing an endless loop, downward spiral, and no-gain effect. When money, religion, and politics are intermingled, they form a true inescapable trap or bottomless pit. It is the opposite of compassion, cooperation, justice, and wisdom and causes you to expend dramatically more effort, time, and resources than necessary to achieve lesser results than are possible when you simply cooperate and have compassion, empathy, and charity for each other. Harmony and cooperation are on the perfect path, while politics, religion and money are ignorance, strong lies, strong delusion, and utter folly.

The primary, though hidden, purpose of politics is to effectively divide and conquer populations who support and participate in these great delusions. Politics serves to dramatically slow and confound progress towards common and common-sense goals that most people want to achieve. This is one of the reasons why major problems persist for centuries. When people finally cooperate to solve problems for the good of all, problems will finally be solved and stay solved. On the other hand, participating in and supporting politics causes problems to persist and even to reappear later, though they were apparently solved previously. Because of the ability of those who also control money and religion to reverse past progress and prevent true cooperation, politics is a great deception and a trap and the opposite of truth, wisdom, and justice.

There is no true freedom nor freewill in the presence of such pervasive and institutionalized deception and exploitation. People have struggled for millennia trying to form working societies based on these three great follies. Those efforts always eventually fail because the inherent injustice and deception at the root of these concepts always leads to chaos and destruction. How long must it take before verifiable wisdom is finally valued over such long-term and self-evident folly? How much longer will it take for good people to grow tired of such obvious lies and turn away from deceptive leaders and their deceptions?

We are all trapped in a web of deception woven with money, religion, and politics. The great evils that bedevil us all will never cease until humanity finally awakens, shakes off these strong delusions, and forges a ...new path... to the future.

Read More...

...and here...

Here is Wisdom!!

Peace…

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Bush Crime Family Is Covering Their Asses!
Posted by: TarryFaster on Sep 30, 2006 11:15 AM   
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These fascist see the handwriting on the wall in November. They forecast losing some control in Congress and some angry reprisals (possible severe legal actions against them).

Read the fine print on ANY of these "Torture Bills" and see who will be excluded from prosecution(s). Watch them skate out of office, unscathed ... richer and more powerful, but unscathed.

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ALL F*CKING NUCLEAR NEO-NAZIS MUST BE STOPPED
Posted by: Burtonger on Sep 30, 2006 5:03 PM   
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The U.S. has been associated with NAZIS a very long time ,PRESCOTT BUSH, who is grampa Bush,Rockefeller and the banking system{The ROTHSCHILDs} Financed the original NAZI PARTY, fact.
I am extremely concerned with these new NAZIS running america because they are an actual illegal faction in control of all the NUCLEAR BOMBS in the U.S. and the ignorant population that are so easily controlled for real NAZIS purposes.
This is real BAD shit going on here and so many people know jack about it that it is going forward and will lead to the WORST results in history if not interrupted terminally.
These f*cking new NAZIS will kill their own people if they need to NO QUESTION at all about that, INSANE whitehouse occupiers already have illegal laws to detain,torture and execute dissenters ,as far as the new NAZIS are concerned they are terrorists and threaten the government .
The BUSH/NAZI crime cabal will bomb Iran,Venezuela and ANY other country that it has on the HIT LIST with or without so called approval from SUPER corrupt spineless congress.....
This is the world's worst nightmare and IS going to happen if we let it.
I just thought I'd let you know how I feel about the NEO NAZIS and the agenda's recent progress so you may remember when it's too late.

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NO JUSTIFICATION IS POSSIBLE WITH THIS
Posted by: 1984NOW!!! on Sep 30, 2006 6:02 PM   
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How anybody can even begin to justify what we have been witnesses to is beyond comprehension as a few have tried to do above.

DOES ANYBODY WANT TO START A NOVEMBER 8TH PSYCHOSIS MARATHON? I KNOW I'M GOING TO NEED HELP IF WE DON'T GET ANY CHANGES IN CONGRESS!!

LONG LIVE THE USA UNDER THE CONSTITUTION!!!

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Those that don't remember the past, are damned to repeat it.
Posted by: Aleabeth on Sep 30, 2006 8:15 PM   
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And friends/family wondered why I never had children. I grew up during the Vietnam era. I wore a friend's POW/MIA bracelet at 9 and understood the visions on television every night showing the scores of body bags being transported out of the war zone. I became politically active over the dissemination of our land/water and air by 14....

I'm tired, disgruntled and mad as hell at my own government for losing sight of whom our forebarers, the framers of our Constitution and Bill of Rights forsaw as a "Great Nation"... the answer to all the worlds ills.

I will continue to fight until the day I die.
I just hope it's not starving in some "camp" somewhere.

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bush the torturer
Posted by: ZZTOP on Sep 30, 2006 10:14 PM   
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bush's insistence on torture even though it has been proven that information obtained in this manner is questionable at best goes to show that he is a sadist.we used to have some moral standing in the world but bush has thrown that out the window.how would you feel if you were an american prisinor of war?george w. bush is a psycotic maniac who,if he is not stopped is going to ruin this country and maybe even start a nuclear war,thereby destroying the entire world.

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The benefit of torture
Posted by: larry.gilliam on Oct 1, 2006 10:28 AM   
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Bush does not want torture to get legitimate intelligence to protect us. He understands that torture produces faulty intel but that the faulty intelligence will support his goals.

He can use confessions to support the idea that there are always more terrorists. He can then justify military 'interventions' anywhere in the world to 'eradicate the enemy.' And, he can make us afraid.

What a great tool!

Who is going to speak against a leader who uses torture?

When we ask ourselves what the benefits of torture are, we must always begin by asking in what context.

What, in other words, are Bush's goals?

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chloe2005
Posted by: Chloe2005 on Oct 1, 2006 4:33 PM   
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Hidden in this torture bill is a clause that will give immunity to EVERYONE involved before the passage of this bill going back to 9/11/01. Why do you suppose that was inserted with no fanfare? Could it be that the administration does not want to be held for crimes against humanity? And what about the enlisted personel who are now serving time?

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Bush=Facism=Nazis=Torture
Posted by: debbie061653@aol.com on Oct 1, 2006 5:27 PM   
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Just read Molly's column. It makes me sick to think that the leaders that purport to represent me are using torture to tighten up their power. Afraid? No, I'm not afraid of Al Quaida, or Osama Bin Laden. You know why? Because they can't take my rights away but Bush can (and is). The framers of our Constitution and T. Jefferson's Declaration of Independence gave us something precious, and we are letting it slip away. If Washington had been as craven as the members of our current congress (notice the small "c", I have zero respect for them!), he most certainly wouldn't have beaten the world's greatest power of that time. He was fearless, and was willing to put it all on the line. That's why he won. We can win too. We just have to use our heads (yeah, think), and realize that we have documents in place that say we can throw them out. It is not only our right, but our solemn duty!

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mark
Posted by: mikmojo06 on Oct 1, 2006 7:15 PM   
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Pelosi on torture:
"As long as the President refuses to change course, and as long as the Republican Congress follows blindly in his footsteps, we will not be as safe as we should be."
This was the conclusion of Rep Pelosi. 'Stay the course', and it's Republican followers make us less save. No Ms Pelosi it is much graver than being safe or not. It is the collapse of our democratic institutions and whether or not we will be a democracy. By not grasping the severity of the attack on human rights, Cong. Pelosi failed to brand Bush, the "torturer" title that he earned. Where were the abu grahib tapes during the debate on the Geneva convention, habeas corpus, war crimes and Presidential power? If Cong. Pelosi is suggesting that changing a few R's to D's will restore sanity make us safe, don't bet on it. What we are witnessing is th