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A Tortured Debate

By Molly Ivins, AlterNet. Posted September 22, 2006.


Bush's problem is that despite repeated warnings, he went ahead with 'the program' without waiting for Congress to provide a fig leaf of legality.
Ivins

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Also by Molly Ivins

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An archive of the great progressive columnist's writings.
Jun 21, 2007

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Jan 12, 2007

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Nov 15, 2006

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Some country is about to have a Senate debate on a bill to legalize torture. How weird is that?

I'd like to thank Sens. John McCain, Lindsay Graham -- a former military lawyer -- and John Warner of Virginia. I will always think fondly of John Warner for this one reason: Forty years ago, this country was involved in an unprovoked and unnecessary war. It ended so badly the vets finally had to hold their own homecoming parade, years after they came home. The only member of Congress who attended was John Warner.

A debate on torture. I don't know -- what do you think? I guess we have to define it, first. The White House has already specified "water boarding," making some guy think he's drowning for long periods, as a perfectly good interrogation technique. Maybe, but it was also a great favorite of the Gestapo and has been described and condemned in thousands of memoirs and novels in highly unpleasant terms.

I don't think we can give it a good name again, and I personally kind of don't like being identified with the Gestapo. How icky. (Somewhere inside me, a small voice is shrieking, "Are you insane?")

The safe position is, "Torture doesn't work."

Well, actually, it works to this extent -- anybody can be tortured into telling anything that's true and anything that's not true. The more people are tortured, the more they make up to please the torturer. Then the torturer has to figure out when the vic started lying. Since our torturers are, in George Bush's immortal phrase, "professionals" and this whole legislative fight is over making torture legal so the "professionals" can't later be charged with breaking the Geneva Conventions, Bush has vowed to end "the program" completely if he doesn't get what he wants. (The same thin voice is shrieking, "Professional torturers trained with my tax money?")

Bush's problem is that despite repeated warnings, he went ahead with "the program" without waiting for Congress to provide a fig leaf of legality. Actually, we have been torturing prisoners at Gitmo, prisons in Eastern Europe and Afghanistan for years.

Since only seven of the several hundred prisoners at Gitmo have ever been charged with anything, we face the unhappy prospect that the rest of them are innocent. And will sue. That's going to be quite an expensive settlement. The Canadian upon whom we practiced "rendition," sending him to Syria for 10 months of torture, will doubtlessly be first on the legal docket. I wonder how high up the chain of command a civil suit can go? Any old war criminals wandering around?

I was interested to find that the Rev. Louis Sheldon of the Traditional Values Coalition is so in favor of torture he told McCain that the senator either supports the torture bill or he can forget about the evangelical Christian vote. I'd like to see an evangelical vote on that one. I don't know how Sheldon defines traditional values, but deliberately inflicting terrible physical pain or stress on someone who is completely helpless strikes me as ... well, torture. And, um, wrong.

And I've smoked dope! Boy, everything those conservatives tell us about the terrible moral values of us liberals must be true after all. Now, in addition to the slightly surreal awakening to find we live in a country that's having a serious debate on a torture bill, can we do anything about it? The answer is: We better.

We better do something about it. Now, right away. What do we do? The answer is: anything ... phone, fax, e-mail, mail, demonstrate -- go stand outside their offices or the nearest federal building in the cold and sing hymns or shout rude slogans, chant or make a speech, or start attacking federal property, like a postal box, so they have to arrest you. Gather peacefully and make a lot of noise. Get publicity, too.

How will you feel if you didn't do something? "Well, honey, when the United States decided to adopt torture as an official policy, I was dipping the dog for ticks."

As Ann Richards used to say, "I don't want my tombstone to read: 'She kept a clean house.'"

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Molly Ivins writes about politics, Texas and other bizarre happenings.

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Our International Treaties become Local Law!
Posted by: tonykuspa on Sep 22, 2006 12:43 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Back when the "Good Ol' Times" were much younger, my Civics teacher told us that Treaty provisions were enforcible at all levels of jurisprudence. Theoretically, this nun explained, we could be hauled in by a justice of the peace for advocating violations of treaties such as the Geneva Conventions at the local VFW Hall. Treaty ratification by the U. S. Congress then, means we are constrained to think/act locally as our leaders have agreed to think/act globally.
We have lost an important tool for keeping our public discourse on a more rational, diplomatic level than it has been for a much too long, angry, gut-wrenching time, my fellow citizens. The least of us should be willing to make a citizen's arrest of any politician who tries to abrogate our local treaty obligations. We have the legal power to do so, apparently.
In the same vein, when our treaties with the American Indian tribes begin with " Because these United States of America are IN NO WISE A CHRISTIAN NATION", why do we continue to allow the far right zealots claim that our forebears had always meant to run our affairs in strict accordance with Judeo-Christian prejudice? That dangerous lie has no place in our local, national, or International dealings with fellow beings of the species Homo Sapiens sapiens. Otherwise, we seem to be defining ourselves as the missing link between lower mammallian forms and the humans we aspire to someday become.
Come on, people, lets be all that we can be, and NOT suffer all these "missing links" gladly. Put them in their places with easily obtainable historical perspective and intrinsic citizen power. Beware of control by NUCULAR families!

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All three Faiths of Abraham spawn violence and hypocrisy
Posted by: SevenStarHand on Sep 22, 2006 2:05 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hello all,

Christians and Jews can smugly lecture and chastise Muslims about violence, because followers of Islam are poorer, more oppressed, and thereby forced to defend themselves in cruder fashion. On the other hand, the rich and powerful nations of the west can fund, train, and equip state of the art militaries and intelligence services to do their bidding, by proxy. Likewise, smooth-talking politicians expertly equivocate about acceptable collateral damage to the homes and lives of poor people in other lands. With so many dollars spent, why don’t Muslims and others simply shut up and accept being exploited, oppressed, and massacred for such nobly expressed western ideals?

Those in representative democracies tout their governments as extensions of the citizenry. Accordingly, so are the militaries, intelligence services, corporations and other proxies used to expand and maintain the Judeo-Christian Empire. By extension, the citizens of western nations are much more responsible for the actions of criminals, killers, and torturers paid for and authorized by democratic institutions than people who live in less democratic nations who have much less control over the actions of their leaders.

It is undeniable that the Bush administration, its cohorts, and supporters are mostly Christian. Without the blind support of so many Judeo-Christians, the Bush administration would not now be embroiled in the current struggle to retroactively legalize torture, illegal domestic spying, and other crimes. By US law, hiring a proxy to murder or assault someone is still prosecuted as murder and assault. It is undeniable that the militaries and intelligence services of the west that kill and torture at the behest of democratic representatives are hired proxies of Judeo-Christian citizens.

Regardless of attempts to shift blame, history clearly records the widespread crimes of Christianity. Whether we're talking about the abominations of the Inquisition, Crusades, the greed and genocide of colonizers, slavery in the Americas, or the Bush administration's recent deeds and results, Christianity has always spawned great evil.

So, the next time any Christian, Jew, or Muslim, whether president, prime minister, religious leader or follower decides to chastise others for their failings, stop to consider that the logs in your own eyes have blinded you to the full truth about all three faiths of Abraham. Religion has utterly failed to solve humanity's problems because it is a strong delusion that spawns error and evil instead. The sheep's clothing of duplicitous ideals is an obvious deception used to hide the truth. Nonetheless, the veil is readily pierced by discerning the fruits of their deeds.

Here is Wisdom...

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» Yes but Posted by: jwg
Careful who you thank...
Posted by: dewey206 on Sep 22, 2006 4:11 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ms. Ivins:

I would suggest that you read the text of the bills Sen. McCain et. al. are putting forward before thanking them for "standing up" to Bush. All they are is giving Bush cover, and neatly hidden in the McCain bill is a bit that completely suspends Habeas Corpus for anybody the President says is a "terrorist suspect". I suggest you read this piece from Salon before lauding these GOP Senators.

McCain and them are just playing their part to give cover to a power-hungry president, and they're doing it well if you haven't caught on to this yet.

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» RE: Careful who you thank... Posted by: outsidea
» RE: Careful who you thank... Posted by: munchkinpup
Agreat Day Coming!
Posted by: outsidea on Sep 23, 2006 1:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Tomorrow is Sunday. Millions of Christians will be heading out to their various churches (mega or otherwise) and I will be expecting to see the largest spontaneous demonstrations in the streets, hi-ways and bi-ways of this nation, led by irate ministers, priests, reverends etc. that we have ever seen. I will expect to hear them leading righteous chants against the ungodly persons who have taken this nation down this sinful and ungodly path.

Following that in rapid succession I will expect to the the other "people of the book" in the streets led by their rabbis and imams demanding the immediate removal of the devil (as identified the Hugo Chavez at the U.N.) George Bush and all the succubi that serve him. Its a chance now for are the people of faith, spiritual folks like buddhists, Sikhs, wiccans, etc to get out there also. What a great week-end it will be the next week as this whole devine mass (mob?) descends on Washington D.C. to purge it of those crude evil ones.

Those of us who really only believe love is better than hate, having fun is better than having wars, laughter is better than tears can trail along behind carrying boom boxes that play Jonh Lennons "Imagine" trailing wisps of the good herb becoming happy slowly as ......well.

Fact of the matter is...these crude thugs will be allowed to get away with yet another outrage...this one the crudest of all....the defense of the right to commit torture. We will surely have sold the shit house then.

Joseph

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Torture, it's been here , we just weren"t paying attention
Posted by: Janet S on Sep 23, 2006 8:19 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Will Congress approve torture? Of course they will. They already have. Why such outrage now?

This has been happening in the United States since the 1990's.It came about when our legislators classified our offending youth as super predators. Legislators have moved away from the humane juvenile court system and have paved the way for State sanctioned child abuse and torture of children in the United States.

In almost every state it is legal to waive children 12 years old and younger to adult court, subject them to adult sentences including life in prison, a cruel living death sentence for a child. It is documented that torture and abuse happens to a child who is thrown in adult prisoners. Children have died in torture devices called “the chair” in prisons.Children have committed suicide because of constant beatings and rapes incurred while in adult prisons. More disturbing, this is happening to first offending children.

Slowly and methodically, our State officials have approved torture of children in the justice system, unfortunately not much outrage is reported.We are so concerned with the abuse of other nations and ignore the destruction of our children in our own country.The outcry for Juvenile Justice reform is silent .Do we have no concerns as a society that we are throwing away our children to endure sentences as long as 30 years to life in adult prisons.

Do we have no concerns that while these children as young as 12 wait to be transferred to adult prisons , for years they sit in a 6x9 cell 23 hours a day in isolation, no radio, no TV, no outlet to the outside world and very minimum amount of counseling, education and rehabilitation. At age 17 are transferred to adult prison. More disturbing is the fact that death row inmates receive all these privileges and more.

There 17 year old children will suffer beatings, sexual abuse by older inmates,and death. For adult prison it can be crime school and for others a death sentence. My biggest fear is not so much that Bush’s torture legislation has been approved, but how hard it is to reverse the laws . Reversing state sanctioned child torture/abuse laws, has proved to be like moving a mountain. Once the lawmakers are gone, the bad laws remain, and continue to be used and abused.

Juvenile Justice reform is the biggest issue our state leaders and our United States Congress ignore Why? If our leaders have so much compassion for those outside our country, why do they have no compassion for our own ? Where’s the convention to outlaw torture in our own country and demand that children in this nation under all laws are to be considered children making void this one exception now that they can be tried as adults, and sentenced to life in prison as adults .The United States Supreme court ruled that a child 18 and under can not be given the death sentence, because they realized children are different from adults and should not be subjected to the same standards as adults .

The United States legislators both parties have almost totally abolished any prospects of rehabilitation to our youth.We must hold our elected officials accountable and demand that our first offending youth recieve rehabilitation, education and counseling with new procedures put into the juvenile justice system to ensure this.

One effort to begin change for our first offending children is New legislation for children 14 and under . This legislation would prevent a first offending child as young as 11 from being sentenced as an adult t. It is called Christopher's bill (The Juvenile Justice Reform Act )

Please view this bill and lend your name to the online petition by adding your signature.This Bill is being sent throughout this nation to gain national support . It is called Christopher's Bill.

The Juvenile Justice foundation

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It didn't happen, ok?
Posted by: Griffin3 on Sep 24, 2006 7:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Actually, the Canadian rendition victim, Maher Arar, is already on the docket. He attempted to sue the US gov't for sending him to Syria for 10 months, only to have his case dismissed by a federal judge citing "the national security and foreign policy considerations at stake." He is appealing the decision, but I would not be hopeful for a quick resolution. It seems officials in the Canadian government leaked information after his return as part of a 'smear campaign' to cover their butts, for supplying incorrect information that put him on the terrorist watch list in the first place.

There are lots of links to this story in the liberal press, but just recently they are getting more (and arguably harsher) coverage in the more conservative media. The
Jurist
has the most detailed article, but NPR and CNN have also done recent stories, largely covering a recent press conference with Alberto Gonzales. Mr. Gonzales, appearing boyishly perky as usual, said about Mr. Arar: "Well, we were not responsible for his removal to Syria, I'm not aware that he was tortured, and I haven't read the Commission report. Mr. Arar was deported under our immigration laws." The next day, apparently, a spokesperson sort of covered for the most braindead parts of the statement, but by-and-large the position remains what the Bush admin (I've seen attributions to Ms. Rice) has said from the beginning: It never happened, you see, and it wasn't us, anyway, if it did.

I woke up that night, thinking about this. Before you fly into outrage about the Bushies, et al, stop and think for a bit, what that would be like if it were you. There you are, jobless, still dealing with the financial wreckage to your life after being vanished for 10 months, your house gone, your family in some rental place (guy had two kids, as I recall). You spent half a year in a 6' by 3' cell, in the dark, you still have the scars from the torture, and don't you think those would be some vivid memories? And here this guy is, the head of the "Justice Department", saying No, we didn't do it, and he's not aware of any torture torture. We just don't do things like that." It must have seemed like something straight out of Orwell.

And, of course, the part people should be paying attention to, is, if the gov't is allowed to just pretend something didn't happen, then none of us is safe. I would really love to see someone mention that to one of the folks on FNN, say: "Bahb Novak? Sound like one of them furrin names. Could be Syrian. Why don't we not send him to that Syrian prison where we didn't send the last one, what was her name, Mahi Ivons? After all, there's a war going on ..."

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Alan Bock Writes:
Posted by: rwa on Sep 24, 2006 12:37 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"When I was in high school I was considered one of the "brains" or "nerds." I didn’t get into fights. In fact, I remember a particularly humiliating experience in my freshman year when a couple of bullies caught me in an isolated place on the street and made me bow and grovel before them. They didn’t actually hurt me, but they knew I was afraid they would, so they had control over me. I hated that experience and the memories of it that occasionally surfaced. Although in my head I knew that fighting was not the measure of a real man, it made me at least subconsciously harbor doubts about my manhood. Why hadn’t I stood up to these punks?

What I did about it was to go out for football. I wasn’t very good at it. I was small but I made up for it by being slow, so I ended up being an undersized lineman who didn’t get into games very often, especially if the games were close. But in practices and in the few games in which I played for significant periods of time, I proved to myself at least that I could hang in there with the biggest and toughest guys in our school and other schools. I got knocked around more than I knocked other people around, but I lost my fear of being knocked around and came back for more.

Since then nobody – literally – has tried to bully me physically, even though I am hardly an imposing physical specimen. There’s something about having physical self-confidence that deters bullies, even bullies who could probably mop up the floor with you if it came to a fight.

I suspect that many of our leaders never had the experience of proving to themselves that they were physically capable in that sort of way, and thus harbor doubts about their manhood. George W. didn’t play sports as his father – an All-American baseball player at Yale – did, but was instead a cheerleader. I’ve seen no record – maybe I’ve missed it – of Dick Cheney doing anything particularly physical that didn’t involve having a gun in his hands with the target a defenseless animal. Both passed up the opportunity to prove themselves in combat in the military.

I suspect that neither Dubya nor Cheney would personally torture people, although it’s possible if they were in a situation with others in which there was absolutely no chance of them actually getting hurt. But if they harbor, after all these years, a desire to prove they are tough that they never had a chance to validate personally and physically, I can imagine them – and plenty of other people in the political class – wanting to do so vicariously by authorizing – indeed, ordering – others to do it for them.

This may be incorrect, of course. I’m open to theories from others, perhaps eager to hear them. Because in the absence of some such explanation, the eagerness of the top two guys in the administration, plenty of others in the political classes and all too many who consider themselves thinkers or intellectuals to see torture become quasi-official policy of the United States, which used to have a reputation as the freest land on earth, verges on the sadistic and pornographic.

And it’s a clear sign of decadence. "

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» RE: Alan Bock Writes: Posted by: charemor
A special place in hell
Posted by: dsechelski@bellsouth.net on Sep 25, 2006 4:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just want to ask all those "devout" Christians what Jesus meant when he said, "Whatsoever you do to the least of these here, you do unto me." We won't even get into that other part about "turning the other cheek."
There is a special place in hell for "religious" leaders who support Bush's torture plans. Maybe they will have an opportunity to experience waterboarding themselves through the rest of eternity!

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Can somebody tell me where my country went?
Posted by: NoPCZone on Sep 26, 2006 5:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
More importantly, where are the Judges and other public officials who are charged with upholding our laws? Since when is dismissing valid US law as quaint a valid comment from a White House Counsel- now Attorney General?

If you're looking in at this site:
Get well, Molly

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Next in line for torture
Posted by: cacky on Sep 26, 2006 5:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is something incredibly obvious that I haven't heard at all - what does the legalization of torture imply for the future? And to whom could it not be applied?
Hasn't anybody considered that this tool could be turned upon folks for whom it was not originally (God help us) intended? Definitions and constraints written into our laws are useless, as they are so often ignored, argued out of existence, or simply changed. We're supposed to buy that it is for the purpose of keeping us safe. Safe from whom? Who is safe who has no rights? Who is safe anyway? Shouldn't we rather be wise? Do we really believe that perpetrating outrages today will keep us safe tomorrow? I know that many people do believe that.
Why are some people so thrilled that osama-types would be tortured? Because he hurt us. But who is to assume that only stereotypical bad guys will ever be tortured? How can such truly appalling allowances be made, and intended for, essentially one (type of) person? It won't stay that way. It's too good not to use.
Many have noted that legal torture policies would bode extremely ill for U.S. service people who become prisoners. What about the rest of us? Who decides who is an enemy of the state? The state decides - the same state that insists it needs harsher tools for interrogation of terror suspects, as well as immunity from prosecution, and most likely from any form of recourse at all. What will the definition of "terror suspect" be in a decade, a year, a month?
WHO IS NEXT? Environmentalists?(eco-terror) Political opponents?(treason) Non- churchgoers?(satan worshippers) Readers of certain books?(conspiracy) Gays? (perversion) Journalists?(incitement) Immigrants? Dissenting judges? Dissenters in general? Liberals? Democrats, Pro-choice Republicans? People who are so soft on crime they don't want little children in prison? (thank you, janet), Welfare proponents? (socialists) Any foreigner who speaks his mind?(enemy combatant) Innocent bystanders? (that one's a lock.)
Isn't it also likely that the spirit of this policy will trickle down into local law enforcement and into the public consciousness? Won't some people be further emboldened to persecute others, and won't many other people be even more afraid to exercise their rights to freedom of speech and thought and action?
Ever heard the old saw about marrying someone who left their spouse for you? "If they did it FOR you, they'll do it TO you." Don't be in such a hurry to feel excited and flattered by those who want to torture people for you. You're going to be waking up next to them.
Y'see, it's not who they want to do it to, it's that they so badly want to do it. Why? Seriously, why? There is alot more going on with these people than the "war on terra," and don't you forget it.
Say no to all torturers. Do not believe their lies. If they think they need to torture people, for God's sake let's don't give them permission! IF THEY'LL DO IT AT ALL, THEY'LL DO IT TO ANYONE. The justification that this may not happen right away is completely unacceptable. Does anybody out there have kids?

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