Home
Archive
Newsletters
Video
Blogs
Discuss
About
Search
Donate
Advertise
  • AlterNetYour turn

Support AlterNet
Do you value the information you're getting from AlterNet? Please show your support with a tax-deductible donation.


Feedback
Tell us how we're doing.

Advertisement
Advertisement

Stop blaming the Greens for a f**ked up, undemocratic system

Posted by Joshua Holland at 1:53 PM on August 3, 2006.


'Cause you're just blaming the victims, while doing nothing to address the "spoiler" issue.
ass
dumb

Share and save this post:

      

      

Share on Facebook       

AlterNet Social Networks:
follow us on twitter
find us on Facebook

Got a tip for a post?:
Email us | Anonymous form

Get The Mix in your
mailbox!

 

As Lindsay points out in Peek, TPM Muckraker figured out that it was conservative supporters of Rick Santorum who funded the $40,000 signature drive to get Green Party candidate Carl Romanelli on the Pennsylvania Senate ballot.

Shocker. Even though it's happened time and time again.

And, of course, on cue, the liberal bloggers are pulling out their knives.

Holden at First Draft, begging for a shot to the kisser, asks: "Is there any magnet for whores in this country larger than the Green Party?"

The non-evil Roger Ailes repeats the conventional nonsense that Nader was responsible for Bush and now cries about tricky Rick Santorum courting a "Selfish Green Rogue."

John Aravosis at Americablog also blames Nader for not one but "two Bush presidencies," and demands that the "Green Party candidate return the money and pull out of the race." (Recall how snippy John got when some of his readers had the nerve to question his ethics for accepting a bloggers' trip to Amsterdam paid for by the Dutch government.)

And Scott Lemieux at Lawyers, Guns and Money thinks "the Republicans are funding a Useful Idiot Party candidate for the Pennsylvania Senate."

[OK, deep, calming breath.* These are otherwise good people, Holland, and it's not the time for an obscenity-laced tirade.]

Of course Repubs help Greens get on the ballot. That's the way the system's set up. And is that somehow the Green candidate's fault? Or is it the fault of the Dems and Repubs? Are the Greens somehow responsible for the fact that you need to collect 100,000 friggin' signatures to get on the Pennsylvania ballot? Why not put the blame where it belongs?

This whining has become a maddening tradition, and it just makes me crazy how short-sighted people are.

You'd think from reading those clips that these bloggers hate spoilers, but they don't. Spoilers -- a constant stream of Republican-backed Green Party candidates -- don't bother them in the least.

If they did, they'd talk all the time about the clean elections model, they'd talk about Instant Runoff Voting and they'd talk about how ludicrous these onerous ballot requirements are.

They'd talk about what an unbelievable joke it is to call the U.S. a democracy and guarantee everyone the right to participate, and then set the price of entry at $40,000 dollars.

But we hear so little about those things that we can only conclude that they love spoilers. After all, it's something to bitch about, and it's someone to blame when the Dems ignore the issues most important to Americans, roll over for the Repubs and lose.

If we had a couple of hundred Ned Lamonts -- people who can throw one and a half mil into the ring along with their hat -- then it wouldn't be an issue. But we don't, so it is.

Now, I'm pragmatic enough to hold my nose and root for a Casey win, because Santorum's among the most odious of wing-nuts and I want to see a Dem Senate that won't rubber stamp Bush's madness. (And whoever thinks some no-name, no-money Greenie is going to swing the Pennsylvania vote to Man-on-dog Santorum needs to share what he or she's smoking with the rest of us. Seen the polls lately?)

But I can promise you, as a former Green who's now a disgusted, Dem-leaning, independent liberal swing-voter -- I've been on both sides of this question -- that if progressives and Greens and Dems can't get together on the basics of small "d" democracy, we have zero chance of ever creating a broad coalition in the American left. We simply will never see eye-to-eye as long as the Dems are indistinguishable fro the Repubs on these basic questions of American political participation.

*I'm grumpy because the heat index is at 105 degrees. I'm going to head to the damn supermarket and hang out in their industrial-strength AC until I'm my usual perky self.

Digg!

Joshua Holland is a staff writer at Alternet and a regular contributor to The Gadflyer.


On the religious right 'nuts,' liberals, and catching a break
A response to a colleague...
Post by Evan Derkacz. October 17, 2006.
Bush thinking of 'replacing' Iraqi government? [VIDEO]
A whole new definition of Democracy.
Post by Evan Derkacz. October 16, 2006.
Religious right rally's first gaffe
Church opposes bigoted agenda
Post by Evan Derkacz. October 16, 2006.
Advertisement
Comments Turn comments off sitewide Give us feedback »
Comments closed.
The comments for this story have been closed. Thank you to everyone who participated.
View:
Another thing, you should mention
Posted by: Jesse on Aug 3, 2006 2:26 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is that there were perhaps two state, and New Hampshire is one, where the 2000 election numbers support the idea of Greens as spoilers.

The fact is (if one bothers to look at the data) that anywhere the Democrats won, the Green Party's take of votes mattered not at all. New Hampshire and Nevada (2000) are the only states where this happened--and that's assuming that the votes for every other candidate besides Bush and Gore went for Gore. But remember New Hampshire is small, as is Nevada. (Though to be fair, had Gore carried either state Florida would not have mattered and he would have been president). In Florida, it's possible the Greens were spoilers, but I have my doubts.

In other small states, like Wyoming, Utah, the Dakotas, and Montana, one should note that the margin for Bush both times was so big that if every Green voter in the state--and there are very few in those places--went for Gore the outcome changes not one iota.

Now what about '04? Again, assume every Green in a blue state goes GOP. Any changes? I can't find one, nor can I come up with one that swings a red state to Kerry with New Hampshire being a possible exception, again, and New Mexico. The point is, the race was Kerry's to lose. Had the Dems carried Iowa again he would be president. Had the Dems made a more concerted effort to support splitting Colorado's electoral vote and carrying New Mexico, the results would be different. They even had a chance at Nevada.

It's not the Greens fault that the Democratic Party is just plain dumb sometimes.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Another thing, you should mention Posted by: oregoncharles
There already is a third party in America
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Aug 3, 2006 3:26 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's fairly secretive, but it's called the Corporate Party, and it includes quite a few Democrats and the majority of the Republicans, giving them the real congressional majority in this country. Prominent members include Joe Leiberman, Tom Delay, George Bush (both of 'em) - you might be able to name the rest. These are the people that Ralph Nader goes on about, but he has an unfortunate habit of only going after the Democratic members - recall after the stolen 2000 election when he said, "Let's just give Bush a chance." He really did say that, too.

Furthermore, I hear absolutely nothing from the national Greens and Nader until about six months before each election. However, Green Party platforms are really good for local economies and the local environment - and that's why Greeens should try to get elected to city councils, to school boards, and should devote their efforts to local races and local environmental struggles. If they want to do national politics, just look at Dennis Kucinich - he's done far more for the country then Nader has recently, in my opinion.

The problem is when the Greens go after the 'good Democrats' like Ned Lamont - they kow they can't win a national race, they can only act as spoilers, and the Republican Corporate wing knows this too, and that's why they fund them. Greens can be corrupted just as easily as Democrats or Republicans - it's called money.

If you don't believe me, just read this article:
http://www.sfgate.com/ (2004 Nader funding)

"Nearly one in 10 of Nader's major donors -- those writing checks of $1, 000 or more -- have given in recent months to the Bush-Cheney campaign, the latest documents show."

I'd really, really like to hear Ralph Nader stand up and explain to everyone why he would accept this money.

Even more importantly, supporting a political party is not the only job here, or even the most important one - more important is taking direct action, talking to people, exposing the corrupt and dishonest nature of our current government by doing independent investigative journalism, and so on. You want change? You gotta do it yourself - no white knights are in sight, except the ones with hoods.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Greens Being Used
Posted by: Bill Broadwater on Aug 3, 2006 4:46 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Greens, in essence, are being funded by the far right. While the arguments about the problems getting on the ballot are valid, of course, how does accepting money from the enemy solve this? The Greens are being used. It is unconscionable for them to accept money from the backers of Santorum and other ultaconservatives.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Greens Being Used Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Greens Being Used Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: Greens Being Used Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Greens Being Used Posted by: oregoncharles
The System is Just Plain Bad
Posted by: tclaverdure on Aug 3, 2006 7:34 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First any system that is developed in the future must be one of proportional representation. In that way voters will feel empowered and more likely to vote knowing their vote counts in a real way. These first past the post systems are just not fair.

In the right-wing nation (joking) of Canada, where I live, our christo-fascist leader runs on a mandate of recieving less than 40 % of the votes. In fact 63% of our citizens voted, in effect against him. Wow this is real f*%#ed up. That joker called prime minister harper is merely a puppet of the gop and the corporate cult of greed.

Another joke is our "appointed and powerless" senate.

One thing that is good about the parlimentary system is that the glorious leader can be confronted face to face by other elected officials.

Josh why not research a piece on proportional representation, your perspective is always interesting.

Would your constitution need to be changed? Lots of questions need to be answered.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

What the "spoiler" accusations reveal
Posted by: autonomie on Aug 3, 2006 8:29 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Disclaimer: I don't support the underyling principles of electoral politics, and don't endorse it as an effective method of problem solving.

That said, I think "spoiler" accusations are interesting because they reveal an authoritarian outlook. Consider that, inherent in a "spoiler" accusation, is a hidden belief that the person on the receiving end doesn't own his or her own vote. That is to say, said person isn't free to choose how to "spend" that vote, that the individual is obligated to throw away their own beliefs -- or from their point of view -- throw away their own vote by endorsing someone they don't want to.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Right on!
Posted by: YogiBear on Aug 3, 2006 10:16 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But we hear so little about those things that we can only conclude that they love spoilers. After all, it's something to bitch about, and it's someone to blame when the Dems ignore the issues most important to Americans, roll over for the Repubs and lose.

My point exactly. I knew we had something in common.

When the Dems lose elections, they're so quick to blame other folks on the left of a different electoral persuasion. But God forbid they do a little soul searching and find out that they are losing elections because they refuse to stand on principle. Have the Republicans' cheated? Looks like it. But that's like blaming the ref for a bad call in a tie game. Yes, it would be nice if the refs were more fair, but it would also be great if your team actually put forth an effort.

The way I see it -- the threat of lost Green and other left-leaning independent votes is all that is holding the mainstream Dems from falling completely over to the right. The last thing we need are so-called "centrist" liberals who would have found a welcome place in the Reagan white house.

Yet that's what we're getting time and time again. I'm not holding out hope for '08.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

IRV is a dangerous non-reform masquerading as reform
Posted by: wli on Aug 4, 2006 12:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The devil is in the details. IRV's technical performance/etc. demonstrates that it's unsuitable as a replacement for FPTP (First Past The Post) whether on a per-district or national basis.

Proper reforms are CSSD for single-winner elections, e.g. President, and STV (esp. Meek's method, Warren's method, and especially CPO-STV) for multi-winner elections, e.g. Congress. (The entire raison d'etre of the Senate should be in question in the event of any sort of proportional representation.)

None of this will ever happen, for without gerrymandering and other methods of swinging results to the (far) right, the elected govt. would be far too far to the left for the tastes of "anticommunists."

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

why does this topic never go away?
Posted by: mokidugway on Aug 4, 2006 12:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think it's because the progressives who supported Nader in 2000 know they did the wrong thing.

And you did. You guys fucked up, big time. It was unconscionable and it was stupid and it was based on frivolous "feel good" principles that seem more and more quaint, laughable, childish, and naive as time goes on.

I mean, let me ask you a practical question. Is the Green Party stronger, better organized, better positioned to run candidates in local and state elections, than it was in 2000? One silver lining here would have been the emergence of a stronger progressive movement. But if the Greens rely on right-wing campaign contributions just to gather enough scratch to register, I'm guessing the answer is no.

The Greens have no clout and zero practical influence over American politics. They used up all their good will--forever, in my opinion--by spoiling the 2000 election.

Get rid of them. Disband, and good riddance, and use whatever money you have to provide counseling for those who still have a compulsive desire to explain, giving state by state breakdowns, why the Greens didn't give us Bush.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: why does this topic never go away? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» hah Posted by: kit79
egos before reality
Posted by: Asterix on Aug 4, 2006 4:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All this talk about the Greens righteousness in the face of the Democrats Goliath is just that. They don't have a chance of winning and have to know it...I don't get the point of taking money in the Conneticut race from the Republicans, I admit it. I read every post here and all I see is backbiting, name calling and a sense of self importance that will only help Lieberman in this election.
America needs to open up the party system and allow a larger cross section of opinions to be represented. We also need to have a system that allows more candidates to be seen by the voters as in France. Unfortunately, this is a corrupt money driven system with too much back room dealing going on....
Even in more open systems, it's about making coalitions and like thinking parties banding together to compromise and then use the elected power they have gained to push their platforms!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: egos before reality Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: egos before reality Posted by: YogiBear
Ralph Nader gave us Howard Dean
Posted by: yoursfaithfully on Aug 4, 2006 6:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The 2000 election results did change the Dems, although not totally. Kerry was arguably farther left of Gore, and Dean had a very solid chance. Now Dean is a major leader in the party, and we know we won't get a Bill Clinton in the 2008 election.

Plus, Gore won. With or without Nader, the Republicans would have found a way to steal the election.

I'm sorry if many of you hate George Bush, but the hundreds of thousands of children who died while Bill Clinton starved Iraq to death can't really tell the difference between a conservative Dem and a conservative Republican (you know, cuz they're dead).

I'm proud that I helped move the Democrat party in the right direction. Don't get me wrong: it didn't fix the party. We're still seeing cops, DAs, and attorneys general running as Dems for major seats, but that is a trend that started before 2000, and we clearly have more work to do.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: alph Nader gave us Howard Dean Posted by: oregoncharles
How about Ned Lamont? Now there's a strategy that works!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Aug 4, 2006 8:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This guy went right into the political fracas and directly challenged Joe Lieberman in the primary - and everyone in the Democratic party has their ears up over it. Did you hear Hillary Clinton calling for Rumsfeld's resignment? I wanted to get up and cheer. And that is all due to Ned Lamont's taking on the Rockefeller Democrat that Lieberman, sadly, has become (the guy is even on the Committe for the Present Danger, along with James Woolsey and George Schultz!).

Now Lieberman will run as an independent, revealing his true colors and really undercutting the Democrats - who will he end up taking more votes away from? The truth, however, is now on the table. There are some great independents - like Bernie Sanders - but Lieberman should just join the Republicans, and then he can kiss the Prez without any embarrassment.

The Greens and the Libertarians are really responses to the Two-Headed Corporate Party, but you should remember that change can come from within as well as from outside. Ned Lamont is proof of that.

Instant runoff voting is also a solution to the lack of representation voters have - you pick your 1st, 2nd and 3rd choices - switching to a parliamentary system is a bit grandiose. That way you can choose Green as your 1st and Dem as your 2nd (or Libertarian 1st, or whatever you want); if it then comes down to Dems vs. Repub your vote goes to the Dems. Add that to finance and voting system reform and you get a good system.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Greens Have An Identity Stupid
Posted by: coldeye on Aug 4, 2006 8:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't agree with everything the Greens advocate. But I respect them. I don't respect Democrats. Greens stand for several basic principles, and they have a vision of a safe, sustainable world. they have a vision. You can figure out how they get from A to B and what will change in the real world if they won by some miracle.

Democrats vision? Taking power and getting bigger offices and staffs in Washington. Hilary's vision? Bullying people from the Oval Office instead of the East Wing or wherever she and her band of bully-girl harpies resided when Bill did Monica in the Oval Office.

Why don't the Democrats simply adopt the Green Platform? That would solve the ballot access problem. But that would mean that Democrats really might have to take on corporate power. And a miliitary complex that is Corporate Socialism at its worst.

No thanks. they'd rather have Howard Dean scream and call that "progressive".

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Two Card Monty
Posted by: haystack1317 on Aug 4, 2006 11:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The two party system is simply a sheen of democracy, a way of giving us a few real, surface choices while the vast majority of major directional choices vary very little between parties. Anyone who blames the Greens for Gore's loss in 2000 ought to lay the blame (for his not winning enough votes to prevent Bush from stealing the election) where it belongs -- on Gore. He did everything in his power to distance himself from one of the most popular presidents in history. He wouldn't let Clinton campaign for him until the last two weeks of the campaign. He chose as a running mate one of the most moralistic and arrogant Democrats in the Senate, one who's most famous speech was his pompous attack on Clinton during the Lewinksy scandal and whose positions on Israel were frightening to many voters. Gore chose to clamber up on that moralistic high horse and get as far away from Clinton as he could, despite eight years that many Americans rate as some of the best in our history. The world has paid the price for Gore's mistake.

I have many issues with Nader and I hope the Green party will cut ties with him. But that doesn't mean I blame an individual Green for attempting to establish actual multi-party democracy in this country or for voting for the candidate who most closely represents his/her views.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Kevin Zeese has the strategy
Posted by: rwa on Aug 4, 2006 4:59 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Alternative candidates should obtain endorsement from Libertarians and Populists as well as Greens. They have more in common with the Greens that with the Repubicrats. This is the way to get the alienated non-voters to vote. Supporting Democrats is pointless.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Third Parties
Posted by: Burton on Aug 5, 2006 12:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As the old joke goes, we don't need a third party, we need a second party!

The goal of the Democrats is to destroy any opposition coming out of the left. Thus, the anti-Green campaign.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Third Parties Posted by: oregoncharles
Thanks, Joshua
Posted by: oregoncharles on Aug 5, 2006 10:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You provide a breeze of good sense in this debate. Maybe it should be that hot more often (Hey, it's only 80 here in Oregon - but I shouldn't gloat).

Let me re-emphasize: THE PROBLEM IS THE ELECTORAL SYSTEM. tHE gREENS DIDN'T SET IT UP, AND THEY'VE TRIED TO FIX IT. The "Democratic" Party loves it the way it is, because they think it helps keep out challenges on the left while they go for all the corporate money they can get.

Unless you're helping fix the electoral system, all this whining about "spoilers" is just partisan posturing that no one should pay attention to.

And a point we should hear more often: In Florida in 2000, far more Democrats voted for Bush than anybody voted for Nader. Whose problem is that?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

The Political BiPolarity needs to be medicated to oblivion
Posted by: ark on Aug 5, 2006 8:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This finger pointing blame at the greens is absurd for many reasons.

It implies there is virtue in NOT voting for the candidate which the voter perceives is best. This is a part of the self-perpetuating 2 party system that has been supressing true progressive political thought for a very long time.

If you vote for the lesser of two evils, then by your own definition, you vote for evil. What right do you then have to berate honourable persons who voted for what they believed was good?

Second, the analysis of Nader causing the Gore loss in 2000, always seems to fail to consider all of the significant data from the 2000 election, especially the pro-Republican mercenary act of Pat Buchannan, who took the Reform Party to ground with his presidential candidacy, along with their $12,000,000 in FEC funding. It wasn't the Greens defecting from the DNC, it was the Reform Party members running away from Buchanan into the GOP's arms which tipped the balance.

Election 2000's Palm Beach Buchanan votes statistical anomaly was noticed initially by mainstream media, and then ignored. It was spun out in a Bush Campaign Press Conference; Thursday, November 9, 2000 with communications director Karen Hughes, chairman Don Evans and chief strategist Karl Rove.

Finally, when i read the parts of the thread that mentioned that the only way to beat the GOP was for the Greens to ally with the Dems, i was hit with an intense vision of Feinstein's smiling acquiescent face as she left Guantanamo Bay. You want the independent voters to vote Dem? Clean up your own damn party, and quit whining!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]