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Ahmadinejad never "threatened to wipe Israel off the map"

Posted by Joshua Holland at 10:43 AM on May 4, 2006.


Don't debate Iran on the hawks' terms -- challenge them.
ahmadinejad
craaaazy

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Over in Peek, Evan highlighted an important post by Juan Cole -- a rebuttal of a drunken and libelous fit of dyspepsia by Christopher Hitchens.

Cole made two points that have to be amplified: 1) Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad does not have any power over the Iranian military establishment, and 2) he never threatened to wipe Israel off the map. I'll get to why these points are so important after the excerpt.

Cole:

I object to the characterization of Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as having "threatened to wipe Israel off the map." I object to this translation of what he said on two grounds. First, it gives the impression that he wants to play Hitler to Israel's Poland, mobilizing an armored corps to move in and kill people.

But the actual quote, which comes from an old speech of Khomeini, does not imply military action, or killing anyone at all. The second reason is that it is just an inexact translation. The phrase is almost metaphysical. He quoted Khomeini that "the occupation regime over Jerusalem should vanish from the page of time." It is in fact probably a reference to some phrase in a medieval Persian poem. It is not about tanks. […]

The phrase he then used as I read it is "The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] from the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad)."

Ahmadinejad was not making a threat, he was quoting a saying of Khomeini and urging that pro-Palestinian activists in Iran not give up hope-- that the occupation of Jerusalem was no more a continued inevitability than had been the hegemony of the Shah's government.

Whatever this quotation from a decades-old speech of Khomeini may have meant, Ahmadinejad did not say that "Israel must be wiped off the map" with the implication that phrase has of Nazi-style extermination of a people. He said that the occupation regime over Jerusalem must be erased from the page of time.

Cole's clear in his enmity for Ahmadinejad and "everything he stands for." He's talking about the justification for attacking Iran, and just that.

As for the matter at issue, Ahmadinejad is a non-entity. The Iranian "president" is mostly powerless. The commander of the armed forces is the Supreme Jurisprudent, Ali Khamenei. Worrying about Ahmadinejad's antics is like worrying that the US military will act on the orders of the secretary of the interior. Ahmadinejad cannot declare war on anyone, or mobilize a military. So it doesn't matter what speeches he gives. [emphasis added]

Moreover, Iran cannot fight Israel. It would be defeated in 72 hours, even if the US didn't come in, which it would (and rightly so if Israel were attacked). Iran is separated by several other countries from Israel. It has not attacked aggressively any other country militarily for over a century (can Americans say that of their own record?) It has only a weak, ineffective air force. So why worry about it?

What is really going on here is an old trick of the warmongers. Which is that you equate hurtful statements of your enemy with an actual military threat, and make a weak and vulnerable enemy look like a strong, menacing foe. Then no one can complain when you pounce on the enemy and reduce his country to flames and rubble.

It is obvious that powerful political forces in Washington are fishing for a pretext to launch a war on Iran, and that they are just delighted to have Ahmadinejad as cartoon villain and pretext.

Over on the front page Robert Parry has a good piece about how iffy the intelligence is on Iran's nuclear program and how far away from a bomb they probably are.

We need that, but it's not enough. I'll say it again: a debate about intelligence and crystal ball-gazing about if and when Iran will have nuclear weapons is un-winnable. It accepts the premise that we have the right -- indeed, the duty -- to launch an unprovoked attack on a country because it might, at some point, develop one one-thousandth of the nuclear capacity that we ourselves have. Once we accept those terms, we're cooked.

The narrative we're hearing is that deterrence -- the Mutually Assured Destruction that kept the U.S. and the USSR from blowing up the world for forty years -- won't work with Iran because a homicidal maniac with no regard for human life runs the country. He's happy to bring about the apocalypse, they say. 72 virgins in heaven and all that crap.

The nuclear mad-man story is important. Without that, the whole thing falls apart. You can forget about the moral and legal arguments against a unilateral attack; without the mushroom clouds the cost/benefit ratio is ridiculous -- we know that the consequences of attacking Iran would be incredibly serious; both the loss of blood -- on both sides -- and the economic impact would be huge.

And not just for the U.S. and Iran; deadly acts of terror all over the world tripled between 2003 and 2004.

Let's learn from how we got suckered into Iraq. We debated the WMD when we should have said, "yeah, Saddam probably has some nerve gas shells or something hidden in a bunker somewhere but he's an insignificant flea under our shoe -- a secular quasi-socialist who hates Bin Laden, has a puny, billion dollar military and doesn't remotely pose a threat to us."

Let's challenge the framing of the debate before it's too late.

Digg!

Joshua Holland is a staff writer at Alternet and a regular contributor to The Gadflyer.


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Or better yet, just ignore foreign policy subjects altogether
Posted by: cry0fan on May 4, 2006 12:26 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Foreign policy is mostly just a way to make money for the overclass. Ignore it altogether. Discussing Iran just helps legitimize whatever overclass machinations they are going to try to pull over there....

Or you can just be a good little meat puppet and just toe whatever ideological line the Overclass version of the PseudoLeft deems worthwhile....

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» Well... that is bull. Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» reminds me of a song... Posted by: brasilaron
Social and Political forces lining up behind market forces.
Posted by: brad on May 4, 2006 12:33 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes all good points and well deserving of discussion in the land of sound bite fantasy. The problem arises when anyone attempts to challenge the right wing is that they pull the security card out and the de jour "threat" is Iran. As we near the election the right wing will be playing this hard. Of course not to be out done will be the liberals who will try and out "flex" the right. The rhetoric will become down right ridiculous as the left and right, with the acquesence of the media, will construct an evil threat so vile that to not want to "take action" will align one with satin him(her)self.

I understand fully and agree with your disire to ameliorate this issue before that time arives. However, as the rhetoric is already affecting the market, and therefore, the important stuff, the need to "solve" the problem impacting the market will eventually mount forces beyond reason behind military action. The hoopla over gas prices only fans the flames of the growing beast. Soon everyone will believe anything if it will allow the necessary self appeasement to allow for military action. Although the discussion is appreciated, none the less.

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» alligned with satin... Posted by: brasilaron
Well...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on May 4, 2006 12:56 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lets see...

No Iraqi soldiers taking premature Kuwaiti babies out of incubators.

No WMD in Iraq the second time around.

Iraq did not try to buy yellowcake from Niger.

And the president of Iran did not threaten Israel.

Anyone else seeing a pattern????

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» RE: Well... Posted by: woodford54
» everyone is but... Posted by: brasilaron
» RE: everyone is but... Posted by: redjenny
wait a minute....
Posted by: sixtiesqueen on May 4, 2006 1:46 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why is everyone freaking out about other countries having nuclear weapons or developing nuclear technology when the US has hundreds? If we're going to invade countries for this reason, shouldn't we clean up our own act first?

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» RE: wait a minute.... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» x100 Posted by: brasilaron
» Why the US is freaking out. Posted by: JoshuaLudd
commons sense
Posted by: feller on May 4, 2006 2:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I consider myself a traditional conservtive. That means I want government limited, religion left alone by government, achievers to succeed and the lazy and evil to fail.

But we TC also abhor unnecessary foreign interventions. (You know, like our founder
George Washington?) Mr. Holland you provide simple, factual reasons against the war drums pounded by neocons to fight a disasterous war against Iran. The message is clear and non-ideological. Iran is not a threat to us; a war would devastate our economy and cause massive harm to the resources and people of the Middle East for no good reason.

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» RE: commons sense Posted by: RoffleTheWaffle
» RE: commons sense Posted by: Samantha Vimes
Vanishing Act
Posted by: famouspipeliner on May 4, 2006 6:04 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
'Vanishing from the page of time', sounds serious to me. Cryptic even. What does it mean then? Something too metaphysical to explain to mere mortals? The page of time?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Vanishing Act Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Vanishing Act Posted by: famouspipeliner
» RE: Vanishing Act Posted by: Joshua Holland
» misreadings Posted by: ladyoracle
» RE: misreadings Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Vanishing Act Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Vanishing Act Posted by: Joshua Holland
Who cares what he says
Posted by: schmitta1573 on May 4, 2006 9:09 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don’t know how those idiots think we can keep invading countries. We’re broke. But I guess they don’t really care because they keep profiting from our loans.

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Nuclear madman
Posted by: Brandoc-D'Ha on May 5, 2006 5:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We better get our own nuclear madmen under control before we go after some one elses.If indeed they even exist.We are the ones with lunatics in charge.

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Charlie
Posted by: hankgeorge on May 5, 2006 9:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The GOP needs an event to try to salvage 11/06. An attack on Iran would be such an event, if only in their eyes...and that is all that matters as they have the finger on the trigger. Either this, or another timely terrorist attack with the right amount of "collateral damage" so they can stoke the fires of the "war on terror" and thus scare the crap out of Mr. and Mrs. Middle America (who get their news from FOX and care more about their high school football team's next game than the notion of participative democracy).

Oh, yeah, lads and lasses, one or t'other will go down because there is no other visible magic bullet to save this regime in decline. If I am missing something here, do tell...

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Ignore the drama, read between the lines
Posted by: Kanefire on May 5, 2006 5:08 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Iran is about the dollar people! As was/is Iraq. We as a country taxed other nations by forcing them to obtain their energy supplies with the dollar and then devalued the dollar. Today as compared to 200 years ago, the dollar is .04 and shrinking. There is a reason that two parents have to work to supply an adequate living. This is done through generations and most haven't noticed. In march the FED RES stopped publishing the m3. Iran is about dollars

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» Nope ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
Iran cant be trusted
Posted by: actnow2 on May 6, 2006 8:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I feel this country is in serious trouble. The facts of the matter are we have allies that would love nothing better then to see our destruction. One of our main supposed friends armed who knows how many Islamic countries with nuclear abilities. Another is the main cash cow for terrorists. Now we have Iran on the verge of nuclear advancements that neither we nor the world can take a chance of it being peaceful. Just listen to their president. At the very least he will destroy Israel anyone with half a brain has to know that. It disgusts me that we feel the need to wait and talk to a country that has proven many times it has no interest or intentions of working with the world. It is our right and our responsibility to defend ourselves as well as our friends. If we wait a few years it will be too late it is better to put Iran and any other Muslim country that disagrees in the Stone Age. I know that wont happen so we might as well just give up now we can’t win against fanatics who feel if the die killing us they will go the heaven with 100 virgins. . They belong to a sick religion if you can call killing all non believers a religion

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» RE: Iran cant be trusted Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Iran cant be trusted Posted by: pnut