Women need to remind men that no matter how much say men have, no matter how much a man wants or does not want a baby, the actual fact of the matter remains that women do the majority of child-rearing WORK and it is work that still remains uncompensated, under-recognized and unappreciated by society at large. ANY control of a woman's choice over her future (medically, physically, spiritually) is blatant tyranny and does not help the world's progress.

Grow up, guys. Control yourselves, not women.

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So, it takes 2 people to make a child.


But the woman gets ALL rights?


Why is it so hard for a woman to even CONSIDER that the man was involved until the issue is child support? If you want COMPLETE responsibility for deciding IF you have an abortion or not... with NO concern for the man involved... should you then not also have all the OTHER responsibilities that go with it? Like supporting the child YOU wanted? If you don't want the child.... the father has no say. If you want the child.... the father has no say. And you want to put the responisibility on the father????

I am ALL for equal rights. But there is nothing equal about abortion today.

It is a very complicated subject... and the simple solution of "she gets the rights... he gets to pay for it" does NOT address it.

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... I agree with the author. While we men have the right to express our feelings about abortions, we do not have to actually go through the ordeal of the procedures.
Personally, I recognize that an abortion can be a life-saving procedure during an at-risk pregnancy. And I also empathize with any woman who has become pregnant from a rape or sex assault. I can support abortion in those kinds of scenarios.
But when a woman uses abortion as a form of birth control by having numerous abortions every time she gets pregnant, I do not support that kind of decision-making. A colleague of mine has a client who is only 16 years old and has already had 4 abortions! She refuses to use condoms even though they are readily available for free in the school and at the numerous clinics in town.
I also do not support late term abortions except when the baby is still-born. It's one thing to have the procedure because the baby has died, it's another thing to wait that long to decide that you don't want to have the baby. Especially since the unborn baby has already begun to show signs of life and spontaneous independent movement.
But again, as a male, I am free to express my feelings. But I know that I will never actually have to make that decision for myself or for someone else. What I can do is provide emotional support for someone who is going through the process and use my better judgment to hold my tongue and put the needs of the woman before my desire to express my moral opinions.

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Until the man can carry the fetus to term from day 1 of pregnancy I won't support the idea of mens rights in relation to abortion! If you can't walk the walk.....

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it's a relatively inexpensive, quick, and non-invasive procedure. And it is SUPER effective. Men, if you DO want children someday, then use condoms. Biologically, this is where men have control over reproduction. Men, you have rights over your own bodies-- where and when you let your sperm flow-- and you have rights as a parent AFTER your kids are born. (And, yes, these rights extend beyond financial.)

You DO NOT have a right to tell someone whether she will or will not give birth. Men, you can opt out of parenthood at any point in a kid's life-- it happens all the time. Mothers don't have this option. Once we give birth and take the baby home, we can't opt out. Ever hear of a deadbeat mom problem? Yeah, I didn't think so. What we need in this country is more good fathers-- fathers who are responsible, loving, and present for their children. We DO NOT need more male control over women's reproductive choices.

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i think that a lot of the issue men have with it is the way the legal system is set up. they argue the point here because the two are definitely intertwined, but these arguments are misplaced.

that argument - unexpressed here - is that the only real solution is to build some more fairness in the way child support operates so that an unwilling man, legitimately caught in a bad situation having used condoms, etc, can find some relief. personally, i disagree with this argument, mostly because it would be hard to implement with the current legal system intact. however, it is an interesting thought for a perfect world. we aren't there, yet. So...

"it's a 'moo' point. A cow's opinion - it doesn't matter. It's MOO." -Joey Tribiani (I know I am a little lame, but that line makes me laugh everytime I watch that Friends episode with my girlfriend.)

Any thoughts? (about my point, or my lameness?)

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Ahem, the end result of pregnancy is a child-- a living, breathing human being like the rest of us. What I most detest about all these abortion protestors is that they presume to speak for the fetus but take no interest in the child that fetus will become and its material and emotional needs.

Could it be that pro-choicers are falling into the same trap? Imagine if you knew that your mother favored aborting you but your father intervened and insisted on your being born. Even if your father was the best father on earth-- warm, nurturing, financially sound--wouldn't you feel pretty miserable about your mother? I still believe that two-parent families (and I don't care about the gender of the parents) are ideal. A woman who decides to keep a child by an uncooperative partner is setting herself and her child up for a difficult life, but a man who insists that a woman unwillingly bear his child, in my opinion, is interested in neither the child nor the mother.

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Ahem, the end result of pregnancy is a child-- a living, breathing human being like the rest of us. What I most detest about all these abortion protestors is that they presume to speak for the fetus but take no interest in the child that fetus will become and its material and emotional needs.

Could it be that pro-choicers are falling into the same trap? Imagine if you knew that your mother favored aborting you but your father intervened and insisted on your being born. Even if your father was the best father on earth-- warm, nurturing, financially sound--wouldn't you feel pretty miserable about your mother? I still believe that two-parent families (and I don't care about the gender of the parents) are ideal. A woman who decides to keep a child by an uncooperative partner is setting herself and her child up for a difficult life, but a man who insists that a woman unwillingly bear his child, in my opinion, is interested in neither the child nor the mother.

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When you carry the kid, YOU can make the choice. Until then, butt out!

And, as a matter of fact, I'm a man. One who's embarassed at how many of my half of the species are still ignorant and chauvinistic, while claiming they aren't.

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These are interesting and, some of them, moving responses. If you are interested, my own response is posted at richardjeffreynewman.blogspot.com. Conley's piece and his reasoning need to be critiqued and critiqued hard!

Cheers!

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Thank you, Luisa, for not pulling any punches.

One of the must insufferable canards of the contemporary rhetoric of reaction is this endlessly repeated claim about the poor oppressed white male. Of all the pathetic whines of the right, this is the most pathetic and whiney. This equivocation about how men should somehow have the same rights over women's bodies as women have over themselves is on the same level of a class of arguments that spews forth from the collective gob of reactionay flotsum these days: "let's have 'intelligent design' in the HS biology class so students can see 'both sides' of the issue--what could be more fair???; gee if black people get their MLK holiday, shouldn't white people get a white holiday, and have a white entertainment TV network, and boast about white power?; etc..." *gag*

Fairness and equity must go beyond superficial appearances, every thoughtful person knows this. Honestly, I'm sick of hearing men debate the abortion issue--I think it's time they...WE...shutup and listen...

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let's say, for the sake of argument, that under certain circumstances a man should have the right to cause a woman to terminate a pregnancy or have a child against her wishes. i would argue that it follows that, under the same kinds of circumstances, a woman should have the right to cause a man to impregnate her against his wishes.

i wonder how many people who hold the first belief would agree to the second, in theory or in practice.

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Not all men are pigs, but alot of women have no problem draging men through the muck. Women get angry and the courts have given them a loaded gun to point at the heads of some undeserving men. It is not about CONTROLING WOMEN if you think that then maybe they are all out to get you. Stop checking the peep hole allready.

I know this is an old article but I had to respond.

I dredged though all the comments, it was exhausting. I will try not to let my emotions drive my comments but I am a man who was basically tricked or used, there is not an accurate word, by a woman into creating a child I know I know haha he was tricked, what ever, but hear me out.

13 years ago I was in a very short relationship with a woman, the entire relationship she told me she was taking the pill and we used condoms. This was about a month long relationship, when I decided it was not the kind of relationship I wanted, I was hit with, "Well to bad I am pregnant" as if this would sway my decision to stay with her or not. I still do not know how she actualy got pregnant, I thought we were pretty well covered. I had found out her husband ( I didn’t know she was married) was in prison 25 years for drug dealing and that she was a cocaine user and pot smoker. Not for me, I never knew if she was actually pregnant and a year after I broke up with her I moved to another city. I never heard from her. 8 Years go by, she is now destitute and applies for support from the state, the state asked her if she was getting child support, she said no, they took over from there, she named me as the father and I end up in court. I had a crappy attorney and was actually out of the country at the time so my attorney was in court for me. I ended up being made responsible for over 8 years of back child support 30+ K, that I was never ordered to begin with and was ordered to pay 1000.00 dollars a month for a single child. 5 years later as of November 2005 I have custody because his mother is a crack cocaine addict, every dime I paid in support went to support her habits, and every gift I sent was sold. She stole and forged checks from her own family. She was thrown out of section 8 housing and lived flop house to flop house with the child until I found out about everything and I sued for custody. The child was exposed to drug dealers, crack cocaine, needles and an assortment of other dangerous and violent situations including his own mother smoking crack in a closed up car with the child in the car.

So now I have custody, in fact he is in Juvi right now for taking pot to school to sell. He doesn’t think or have any idea that this type of behavior is that wrong or bad. So now instead of child support I am dealing with legal issues, paying lawyers and being held responsible for the actions of a child who has been raised badly. His mother just called me the other day stating I better send her more money. My response was “I have custody why should I send you more money?” I still pay her 225 a month for arrears ordered by the court which is totally unfair in my opinion. She said she was going to take me to court get more money put me in jail blah blah. The system is being used as a shotgun to extort money from men, this is a fact.

My point is. I would have never intentionally had a child with this person. I did everything I thought was appropriate to protect myself from being in this situation. At this point this person has not taken any responsibility for this child, she only uses him as a means of income from me, and this is FACT on the record in a court of law. She stated "She needed me for the Income"

This child has big problems; she smoked when she was pregnant and smoked while he lived with her. He is anti social with learning disabilities. I had no choice in the matter, I have no choice in the matter.

Continued

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I have a question. Why does the dramatics have to be there in this comment with the extremes? Yes, I understand fully what the point was, and in that it was a very moving story.

However, I was a single teen parent and the father refused to have anything to do with us. I kept my child. Why? Because that was my choice. If he didn't want to have anything to do with her, that was his. If a woman wants to keep her child after it is born and the father wants no part of it so insistantly as to sign away his rights, then let him. I've raised my daughter wonderfully for 13 years. Yes some might say that will lead to more "dead beat dads", but true fathers even if they are "dead beats" don't want to give up their rights fully to their children, their claim to their flesh and blood. And if some women don't want to be mothers, but give the child up for adoption or abortion, the father should have a full say. That is his child as well.

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This is ridiculous! Absolutely ridiculous. So let me get this straight.... You can't get pregnant without a man, but when it comes time to make a decision regarding that pregnancy, you claim ALL rights? I'm sorry ladies, but if you can chose to have an abortion, then why can't a man choose to leave without threat of a court coming down on him for money. Gold-diggers, all of you! Selfish, childish little girls. I cannot imagine why in a time when women have gained equality (and you have), why they would deny equality based on gender. Absurd logic. I mean forced abortion/forced childbirth what about forced fatherhood? I love my children very much and abortion has never been an option for me, but my wife wanted to with my son and did once before with another man. Her friend had 5 abortions, 2 miscarriages and 3 children from 3 different men. Sounds like an easy way out, she used the pregnancy to trap a man and then used the abortion to drive him away. Real responsible... Whatever, you washed up tense feminist!

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To all those men and women out there who believe that the sole right to end or keep a pregnancy should be retained with the woman, I suggest you look into other contributing factors aside from "whomever carries the baby should make the decision." The situation that the couple is in also holds a high validity on the decision making. Having a child is not and should not be at the sole discretion of one party (either male or female) as the pregnancy concerns both parties.

It should be fully understandable to anyone who has raised a child (and even to those who haven't) that there are many social, economic (including financial), mental, psychological, and physical demands with pregnancies and raising a child. For both parties, not just the female. It may not necessarily be feasible for one of the parties or both parties to continue with the pregnancy. Where the issue is one of the parties does not want the child, both should sit down and fully discuss the best possible options for BOTH parties presently and in the future.

Currently, I am helping some friends deal with this difficult decision. The couple had accidentally gotten pregnant because the condom has slipped off. Now, as it goes, the male does not want the child and the female is indifferent about it. I can say I fully appreciate both sides of the story. The male is a second year law student paying $30,000/year in tuition and comes from a traditional Chinese family background. The female recently opened a nightclub/lounge and also comes from a traditional Chinese family background whose mother has a heart condition. The male know's for certain that he won't have time to care for the child mentally, psychologically, financially, and time wise. Those are his reasons for choosing an abortion, being a law student myself, I fully understand the time requirements and financial obligations towards the school. The female on the other hand is indifferent on the situation and isn't decided yet.

Given this situation, I advise the couple should opt for abortion. Why bring a child into the world where neither party has the time or financial resources to raise him/her, and where one of the parties does not want the child at all?? You may simply brush it off and say "they shouldn't have been having sex in the first place then." However, it is a little too late for "should haves or shouldn't haves" and it's time to focus on the present and how to BEST deal with the problem for BOTH parties in their CURRENT situation for the FUTURE.

So in conclusion, I don't necessarily believe that the rights to abortion/retained pregnancy should remain with one sole party, but with both parties. For the individuals of the world who fight for "equal rights" of both genders, where is the equality when the female is forced to carry through the pregnancy/abortion, there is none. On the same note, where is the equality when a man has no say whether to carry through the pregnancy/abortion and even more so, forced through legal means to provide for the child if he does not want him/her? It is not equal, it never will be equal, and sides should not be taken when deciding such delicate issues. The rights should remain with both parties, making the best decision for both based on the current situation and for the future.

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