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Catholic League President Believes Atheists Should Have No Rights

Posted by Amanda Marcotte, Pandagon at 10:04 AM on July 14, 2008.


Of course religious freedom is an absolute, as long as your religious beliefs accord with his own.
heatmiser
donahue

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Editor's note: for background, see Christian Lunatics Issue Death Threats Over a Cracker

That’s what I’ve come to believe.  It’s obvious that he thinks that “religious freedom” means “the right to demand a) the right to completely define an entire religion for yourself and eject anyone who has different views than yours and b) the right never, ever to be mocked, criticized, or looked at funny”.  But even when a number of atheists online were insisting that I was targeted by the Catholic League for harassment and economic hardship-distribution because I’m an outspoken atheist, I was skeptical.  Nah, a believer could have totally made the jokes I did and get abused, I thought.  I have no idea of Melissa McEwan believes in some kind of god, and she got it, too. 

But watching this whole thing with PZ Myers go down (sorry I’m late to the party; been too busy to follow stuff, you know), I’m inclined increasingly to think that while the Catholic League will go after anyone---and that they do love to spank actual Catholics for diverging from Donohue-defined doctrine, which is far to the right of even what the pope will have you believe---they’re on the move against atheists now that atheism is getting a new heyday/publishing bonanza.  Quoth Lindsay


The Catholic League claims to be a civil rights organization. Yet it consistently targets high-profile atheists like Amanda Marcotte and PZ Myers and attempts to get them fired.  Draw your own conclusions.


Without trying to repeat much of what Jesse said, the real discrimination only occurs if someone is punished by job loss for speaking out against religion.  In my case, there was a vulgarity aspect that’s kind of undeniable.  But PZ didn’t say anything that wasn’t basically polite, if humorous.  More tellingly that that is the fact the ire transferred neatly from the kid who innocently took a wafer out of mass in the first place.  Since that kid was supposedly the original “criminal”, why is it that PZ has eclipsed him in focus just by issuing supportive statements?  Gosh, Donohue’s press release gives a hint. This quote was quite telling.



Myers, who claims expertise in studying zebrafish, has quite a following among the King Kong Theory of Creation gang.
So, Donohue is a creationist.  Which means that he’s not actually the Catholic he’s claiming to be -- the official church stance is that evolutionary theory is what scientists generally claim it to be, a scientific theory that explains the natural world.  There’s a lot of theological hokum that means that they’re not 100% on board, which is to be expected, because religious power-holders realize how big a threat science is to religion, and therefore to their power.  But to say something like the “King Kong Theory of Creation” or to cast suspicion on the work of a scientist who studies zebrafish comes more out of the Southern Baptist fundie tradition than the Catholic tradition. 

For such a staunch defender of Catholicism, it seems that Donohue doesn’t know much about it.  His views consistently fall more with Protestant fundamentalists, and I’m increasingly suspicious that he’s less a true believer with his head up his own ass and more a right wing operative trying to increase the political power of the religious right by luring Catholics into the fold.  The irony of all this is that the agenda is basically to turn America into a theocracy where the rights of atheists are threatened.  Trying to orchestrate the public firings of prominent atheists because they are atheists is part of that, as is the hat tip to a fundie-not-Catholic view of evolutionary theory. 

None of this precludes the objections I can hear forming in comments -- that Donohue is an attention whore who gets mad at any little thing being the big one.  Both/and blog, remember.  He is both an attention whore and a right wing operative who put politics before his duty to his supposed faith every time. 

Digg!

Tagged as: donahue, pz myers, cracker-gate

Amanda Marcotte co-writes the popular blog Pandagon. She is the author of It's a Jungle Out There: The Feminist Survival Guide to Politically Inhospitable Environments.


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How dare you slander Heat Miser
Posted by: hurricane hugo on Jul 14, 2008 10:07 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
by aligning him with that piece of shit William Donohue?

jdfu!

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» RE: How dare you slander Heat Miser Posted by: TheNamelessCity
» One and the same, my friend Posted by: hurricane hugo
Hey, Amanda, you're just lucky...
Posted by: oregoncharles on Jul 14, 2008 10:21 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
they can't burn you at the stake - any more. (Yes,it happened.)

It's hardly news that someone like Donohue thinks atheists have no rights: it's pretty much church doctrine. Remember, the church hierarchy has done nothing to confess or atone for their record of mass murder. Until they do, we can assume they still think it's perfectly OK to kill people for disagreeing with them.

Lately, of course, they can't do that, so they just try to get them fired. Your employer doesn't take them seriously, do they?

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poke the bear and you can get bitten ...
Posted by: Dankhank on Jul 14, 2008 11:01 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"More tellingly than that is the fact the ire transferred neatly from the kid who innocently took a wafer out of mass in the first place."

if you believe it was an innocent act I got a bridge ...

There are many things about the Catholics I don't like ... but the "innocent" kid started it all ...

Cry and Moan all you want, but you should not poke the bear ...

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While I'm no fan of Bill Donohue
Posted by: NthnBrazil on Jul 14, 2008 11:05 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
you are mischaracterizing PZ Myers' original post and why this has blown up as much as it has. Here is the link to the original commentary piece, and here is the quote that's got everyone so riled:

I have an idea. Can anyone out there score me some consecrated communion wafers? There's no way I can personally get them — my local churches have stakes prepared for me, I'm sure — but if any of you would be willing to do what it takes to get me some, or even one, and mail it to me, I'll show you sacrilege, gladly, and with much fanfare. I won't be tempted to hold it hostage (no, not even if I have a choice between returning the Eucharist and watching Bill Donohue kick the pope in the balls, which would apparently be a more humane act than desecrating a goddamned cracker), but will instead treat it with profound disrespect and heinous cracker abuse, all photographed and presented here on the web. I shall do so joyfully and with laughter in my heart. If you can smuggle some out from under the armed guards and grim nuns hovering over your local communion ceremony, just write to me and I'll send you my home address.

Donohue may be an ass but this threat to desecrate a holy object and post pictures on the web (even if tongue in cheek which I'm not so sure it is) is offensive. While it certainly doesn't warrant death threats it is neither polite nor humorous. It is as disrespectful as mutilating any religious object from any faith tradition. If that floats your boat, sally forth, but the chagrin at the reaction is pretty disingenuous.

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» Much ado from folks with much... Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Context Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Yes, lets have some Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: I found it funny Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: Nah I'm not surprised Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: I found it funny Posted by: El Hombre Malo
» RE: Yes, lets have some Posted by: Joshua Holland
One of CL's targets is an proud sexist who favors shoving men in cages.
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Jul 14, 2008 11:21 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Draw your own conclusions from her noises, and those of the Catholic League. They aren't necessarily different in ideology, just in popularity and skew.

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Religious Believers are People Who Have Never Thoroughly Studied the Origins of Religion
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com on Jul 14, 2008 1:25 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jesus was never a man.

That is a huge lie the church perpetuated centuries after Jesus was supposed to have lived.

Historical texts from those days do not at all mention Jesus.

Jesus is a combination of other astrotheological religions.

Similar themes include birth by a virgin, death on a cross, 3 day resurrection, performing miracles. They are all sun gods.

Peoples faith should be mocked, ridiculed, and desecrated. Its not polite, its not classy, and maybe it accomplishes nothing.

But the rest of society should not live in fear of sacred cows. Religion is bullshit. It's self imposed mental slavery.

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» RE: Do some reading on Authoritarianism Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» Actually, he was Posted by: rickiey
» The Word of God! Kaneh bosm!!! Posted by: garry minor
» RE: There were HUNDREDS... Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
Those who impose known deceptions deserve no rights...
Posted by: SevenStarHand on Jul 14, 2008 6:09 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bill Donahue and his entire hierarchy of "snakes in fancy clothes" have known for centuries that Christianity is a purposeful Roman deception. Jesus Christ has been proven to be a lie from multiple directions. Yet, these arrogant greedy belly-slitherers have the gall to continue to impose already disproved deceptions that cause widespread conflict and suffering.

Personally, I think that makes him and his ilk evil. Most people are simply duped and suffering from strong delusion. Those in the upper hierarchy know they are selling dangerous lies for profit.

Here is the Truth...

Here is Understanding...

Here is Wisdom...

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» RE: I am sure Bill Donahue believes the BS Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
Donahue is a medieval ass. Myers is a cretin
Posted by: El Hombre Malo on Jul 14, 2008 6:14 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And I for one know plenty of catholics who would never back the words of Donahue, but to my dismay I find too many atheist/laicists backing Myers.

What Cook did is, at least, a mistake. At worse, a conscious effort to insult a large group of people for believing in an abstract like transubstation.

The reaction of the church is disproportionate, and well deserving of criticism... But you if you defend what Cook did, you are nor dissing the church reaction, you are just saying "fuck you" "shove it". You are basically saying that since their beliefs are stupid in your point of view, they deserve whatever you do to them. And thats what Myers wrote.

Myers showed the ignorance and class of a schoolyard heckler. You can be as critic as you want to any catholic, evangelic or muslim when they do wnything wrong, stupid or evil. You can diss the hyerarchy... but to go all the way to desecrate abstract symbols that doesnt affect you at all... thats just slappeing the collective face of all catholics, just because you feel superior to them.

Myers feels more intelligent than every catholic on earth just because...well, they believe in transubstation! From that you can draw two conclusions:

-Myers is a cretin if he believes there is no one among those million catholics in the world smarter than him

-Myers is a cretin who feels whoever is more intelligent should have a free pass when pointing their mistakes to the less enlightened, no matter how disrespectfully.

I am a non baptized atheist who was born in a country where baptism was mandatory. My family and I have done everything in our hands to reduce religion's influence in society.

And we never found necesary to disrespect anyone's beliefs.

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» RE: You and Myers are the same in some respects Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
Please update links!
Posted by: pbutler on Jul 14, 2008 10:38 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Amanda M - the "Pandagon" link following your name at the head of this article connects to the old blogsome.com address you left behind months ago...

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The Right's Vicious, Brutal, Greedy Jesus
Posted by: AlexLawyer on Jul 14, 2008 11:49 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Donahue is a professional bigot, a man who has gained wealth, power and fame taking umbrage and spouting ignorance. He's in league with James Dobson, Pat Robertson, John Hagee and the late Jerry Falwell. Since the religious right has come to power and dominated American politics for most of the past 3 decades, its values have been on display. Their vicious, brutal, greedy Jesus bears absolutely no resemblance to the homeless, itenerant, liberal first century Rabbi, and they have enthusiastically supported and enabled the far-right policies that have brought us economic, environmental, military, healthcare and social catastrophes.

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The Corps have been manipulating Religious folks for Decades
Posted by: Purple Girl on Jul 15, 2008 3:22 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Divide & conquer
The Con began with the Reagan years and the Corp/lobbist sect 'Moral Majority'- goal to reduce Rights and Freedoms under the guise of Religion. The same is beginning to come to light regarding the 'Left' causes.Distract US with civil Rights (abortion, gay marriage) or some environmental issue while they highjack the country out the back door.
Rile up to gutteral response and the scam goes unnoticed- Our economy, Constitutional rights and National security did not just recently get sabotaged- it's been happening for decades- just within the last 7 yrs has it been at an excelerated rate and with less secrecy from the shadow Gov't run by the Corps.
It amazes me that neither the Far right and Left can not see they have many things in common- The health of the Planet and the 'Self Evident'rights of man- We are All the Stewards of the Earth and all it supports (us included)-By a god or Nature, our duty is clear.A Creation or a Freak of nature, we are the only ones able to be left in charge.

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Catholicism is not a moderate religion
Posted by: Jasonix on Jul 15, 2008 5:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article suggests that Donahue is trying to lure Catholics into alliances with Protestant fundamentalists because he blasts the theory of evolution, which the official Catholic Church supposedly accepts. The author isn't aware that Pope Benedict has already tipped his hat toward intelligent-design style creationism.

The Roman Catholic Church is not a moderate or mainline denomination. I live in the northeast, the most politically liberal region of the nation, and even here we can see how drastic and radical the Catholic Church is. The megachurch evangelicals are nothing compared to the Catholics. What evangelical church says you're going to hell because you divorced an abusive spouse who tried to kill you? What evangelical church forbids birth control, or pulling the plug on the brain dead? (Maybe some isolated non-denom congregation somewhere, but none of the denominations do.) What evangelical church is the state-established religion in any country, that outlaws the practice of other religions and forces parents to raise their kids in the official church? When have evangelicals resorted to terrorism and ethnic cleansing to carve out countries for themselves where their church can be assured a "special place" in their nation's constitution?

Mention these inconvenient facts, and Catholics cry "wah, wah," claiming that you're some kind of bigot who hates Irish, Italians, or Polish people. They never try to defend their Church's practices or doctrines, ever. Even the so-called "cultural Catholics" who don't follow the Church's whims on political and social issues try to bully and silence the Church's critics, which gives the conservative Catholics plenty of cover to continue working against enlightened values.

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The Idolatry of the Wafer
Posted by: curiousdwk on Jul 15, 2008 6:57 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Bible is full of warnings against idolatry. Not just in the 10 Commandments, but throughout the Old and New Testaments. What is idolatry?

Idolatry is attributing divine nature into a physical object. It can be a Golden Calf that is given attributes of deity. And it can be a wafer which is given attributes of deity. For the same reasons the Jews were not allowed to worship the Golden Calf, Catholics should not be allowed to worship the wafer as if it were god himself.

I see nothing wrong with taking out a wafer from the Church in order to show the Catholics the error of their ways. And the error of their ways is manifest in their out-of-proportions reactions. To allow a "liberated" wafer to become more important than a person is the real cardinal sin here.

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Religion's goal is to return to the Dark Ages,
Posted by: james2021 on Jul 15, 2008 7:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When the Pope, King, or any other ruler wants to be able control the truth. Scientific Method has taught us how to test what people say for truth. It is much easier for polititians to tell the people what the truth is. The Repugwicans have elevated it to an art form not seen since the Inquisition. Remember Galileo's trial for heresey.

The Religious Right Wing Nuts want to be able to tell you what the truth is.

The Repugwicans have their Ministry of Truth in FOX Funny News. Spouting the New Speak of the Repugwicans.

There is no recession, let them eat cake attitude of the Repugwican Party.

Anyone who cares to check, can find the truth in any number of ways. Which is why the Repugwicans want to control everything.

Time to show the Neo Nazi's the door.

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MumboJumbo BS
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Jul 15, 2008 8:11 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't allow any of this to disrupt my daily good life.
Isn't it strange that I do NOT make death threats, DO treat other with respect, often even if they don't earn it, am kind to aminals and am an atheist yet, these superstitious types look at people like me as whatever is their definition of undesirable?

I have REAL things with which to concern myself.

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no faith in evidence
Posted by: luzmejor on Jul 15, 2008 11:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Donohue appears to argue that the way the Universe may actually have been created was all wrong.

Here's a person who believes in an all-powerful creator, yet argues that God chose the wrong way to do things? He prefers the image of an ancient magician using a magic wand or chant, instead.

Well, pardon me, but that doesn't seem to speak of real faith in anything but his own opinion of what the ancient scribes wrote.

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I tend to judge people and organizations...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal on Jul 15, 2008 11:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...by their actions and not words, and the Catholic church is the most evil religion on the face of the planet based on past actions. They occasionlly talk about peace, love, bull$h!t, bull$sh!t, etc. but their actions speak volumes.

Donahue is a shill for the Catholic church and that makes him equally as evil. To say that he does not represent this church is to say black is white. Never ONCE has the pope said Donahue does not represent their views and told him to cease and desist.

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Left the Catholic church
Posted by: frank69 on Jul 15, 2008 4:27 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ever since John XXIII and Paul VI died, the next two, John Paul II and Benedict XVI, did/are trying to return to "the bad old days." I had the misfortune of growing up under Pius XII - the Nazi lover.

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Catholic League
Posted by: frank69 on Jul 15, 2008 4:52 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I like the National League, even the American League, but I abhor the so-called Catholic League. That's the whole enchilada, not just chief asshole, Donohue!

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ATH
Posted by: ATH on Jul 15, 2008 5:17 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't understand why humans find it so neccesary to impose their beliefs on others--whether it's belief in religion, or belief in secular philosophies.
Live and let live. If everyone would just mind their own damn business, we'd all be much better off.
If you understand anything about debate, semantics, and philosophy, you know that it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of a god(s). It is possible, however, to prove things like evolution. Evolution is not a theory, it is a fact. One can argue the finer points of evolution, but the basic idea has been backed up by scientific facts.
Belief does not have any relevance to truth. It only has relevance as to how one conducts one's life. Believing in something will never make it true; it does, however, often close one's mind to other ideas.
So, I think atheists are equally guilty of a kind of stupidity for believing there is no
god(s), since the mysteries of the Universe are far beyond any human's grasp. There very well may be a god...I think it's just as close-minded to totally exlude this possibility, especially when you look at the complexity of life. In fact, the odds that life arose as an accident are astronomical.
We may be able to say that it is naive to believe that there's some white-haired old man in the sky watching over everything we do..
But to exclude all concepts of a higher being is to close one's mind as equally as those who believe in the white-haired old man. God could be the life-force itself, an energy, or something that is beyond our conception.
I believe the possibility of a god is no more unrealistic than the possibility of parallel universes (that phrase is quite the oxymoron, no?)
So, do not feel so superior...and there is no excuse for rudeness. Do not become as your perceived enemy...Like the U.S. has become, breaking its own laws (and international laws),
torturing people and such (who often turn out to be innocent) because of our own anger and fear. We do not even know what really happened on 9/11. There are holes in the "official" conspiracy theory (which it is, by the very definition of "conspiracy," despite this term being reserved as a derogatory word for any alternative explanations)big enough to fly 757s through. It does not matter what you believe--the truth is the truth, and in this case, just as with the ultimate nature of the universe, the truth is not known. The difference is, we could know the truth of 9/11, but for some reason our government does not want that to happen; which strongly supports, IMO, that there is something very damning in that truth...

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ATH
Posted by: ATH on Jul 15, 2008 6:15 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Having said all that--refering to my previous post--I must say that the Church is and always has been an institution of repression. I think it was Ghandi who said, "I like your Christ, but not your Christians..they are so unlike your Christ."
Religion is used as a form of control. Christ himself said that the true Christian does not pray in public, but in private-a closet, to be precise.
So, when I spoke of god(s), I was not addressing religion, but the concept of the existence of a god(s), and the impossiblity of knowing if there is or is not some higher being, energy, structure, or something of which we can not even conceive. And to rule that possibility out is to be as closed-minded as a person who "knows" there is a god.
But religion itself...well, I think John Lennon expressed how I feel very well, in his song, "Imagine."
Religion is, unfortunately, like politics, a great divider; and this division amounst humans is what is bringing about the next "great extinction."
I always find it amazing that the neo-cons are always bringing up their "faith in God,"
when they are the most un-Christian type of people one could encounter. They go against all the teachings of Christ, which, despite
the authenticity or lack thereof in the religion per se, are very wise words..very similar to what Buddha said: do not kill, do not become obsessed with material possesions (for, truly, to be obsessed is to be possesed by the very same things one believes he or she "owns"),and do not judge others. Yet, these neo-cons are big believers in war, which is killing on a mass scale; they are all very obsessed with wealth--in fact, one can almost guess what political affiliation one has by how much money they make--rich people almost always support the conservatives, or neo-conservatives. Republicans weren't always this way..they used to be the party that upheld the Constitution. Now, they are its biggest threat, along with the fact that many democrats are indistinguishable from them. Both parties are corrupted by greed and corporate influence.
I often wonder how many politicians truly believe, and how many are just playing the game. I don't think many of them are true believers, because they would have to realize that if Christianity
were true, they were certain to go to hell.
Oh, that's right--you just have to say, "I'm sorry."
"Sorry I raped that 8-year old," and straight to heaven you go. That's what's always really bothered me about Christianity..it almost encourages people to do the worst, because they can just say "I'm sorry," and everything is A-okay again.
Well, it's not. Between that and the fact that in the U.S.,justice is green, these neo-cons have both a "get out of jail free" and a "get out of hell free," card.
And the democrats, except for a few, like Dennis Kucinich, Russ Feingold, and Wexler, are no better, because they have no spine to stand up to these tyrants, and will sell their soul for a..euro. Dollar doesn't make sense anymore, since our dollar is really only worth the paper it's printed upon.
As the inevitable collapse rapidly approaches, you will see more and more of religious fanaticism...and a lot of concentration camps, which are already being built all over the nation by Halliburton.
I envy those that believe they will be lifted out of those concentration, or containment camps, by rapture...which is something they just made up, and isn't even mentioned in the Bible. Calgon, take me away!

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